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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Britney Saunders and welcome back to Big Business.

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Speaker 1: You're in a bonus episode today and I'm joined by

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Speaker 1: the wonderful Susie again today. Thanks for coming back. You'll

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Speaker 1: have to listen to our main episode. These are coming

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Speaker 1: out back to back, right, Xander, Yes, okay, so go

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Speaker 1: listen to Monday's MAINEP. But I've got Susie back again

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Speaker 1: in the seat for the bonus Xander, did you have

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Speaker 1: a question that you wanted for this episode?

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Speaker 2: I do so. My question to Susie is, I used

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Speaker 2: to work in a workplace where I had the most

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Speaker 2: horrific time. It was workplace bullying, there was harassment, There's

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Speaker 2: all sorts of like nasty things that went on, and

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Speaker 2: looking back, I found myself in the moment, instead of

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Speaker 2: looking after myself and taking care of my mental health

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Speaker 2: and my physical health and setting myself up to succeed

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Speaker 2: at work, I was more concerned about my loyalty to

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Speaker 2: the business and how the decisions of others and the

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Speaker 2: effects of me were affecting the business. And I want

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Speaker 2: to ask you, how do we as like employees or

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Speaker 2: people who are working underneath people and working with people

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Speaker 2: that aren't so nice. How do we kind of protect

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Speaker 2: ourselves in those situations and not give everything we have

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Speaker 2: into something that, in the grand scheme of things, isn't

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Speaker 2: actually looking out for you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, good question. And I can imagine that was so

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Speaker 3: incredibly difficult to be in that environment. Yes, it sounds

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Speaker 3: really toxic y. Yeah, And so on one hand, you're

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Speaker 3: trying to do your job but just feeling horrendously bullied

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Speaker 3: at the same time and not knowing what to do

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Speaker 3: and feeling like a loyalty to the business. Yeah. Look,

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Speaker 3: I think when you're in that type of environment's very

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Speaker 3: rare that that person will change. I think we hope

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Speaker 3: that maybe things will get better, or that person might change,

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Speaker 3: or the circumstance might be different. But what I've found

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Speaker 3: a lot of research finds is that people like that

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Speaker 3: are very unlikely to change, particularly by your actions. So

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Speaker 3: what you can do is definitely have a document that

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Speaker 3: you're writing down all those behaviors so you've got the

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Speaker 3: evidence there. If there is a HR team or someone

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Speaker 3: you trust in leadership, to go to them and bring

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Speaker 3: that up. Not trying to appease that person. Often we

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Speaker 3: try and get them to like us more, or we

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Speaker 3: overcompensate me and.

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Speaker 1: Isn't that so weird? And I can speak to this

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Speaker 1: as well. And now I've been self employed for over

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Speaker 1: ten years, so it's been a long time since I've

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Speaker 1: worked for someone else. But it really opens your eyes

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Speaker 1: when someone comes on board into Fate. And obviously then

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Speaker 1: they start talking about their past experiences or you even

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Speaker 1: just notice little things that they've carried with them from

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Speaker 1: their previous workplace and they bring it into Fate, maybe

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Speaker 1: because they've just held onto it. Just little things like

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Speaker 1: profusely apologizing for having a sick day. You know, I'm

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Speaker 1: so sorry, I'm letting the whole team down. And it's

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Speaker 1: so interesting because in my mind, I'm like, you're sick, Like,

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Speaker 1: have the day off. It's no stress at all, Like

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Speaker 1: we'll pick up anything that needs to be done kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. But I notice patterns in staff members that

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Speaker 1: have obviously been brought over from previous workplaces. I've found

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Speaker 1: by chatting with staff members and hearing about the places

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Speaker 1: that they've worked in the past, that people do tend

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Speaker 1: to stay really loyal to workplaces that are no good

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Speaker 1: for them. And what is that weird attachment that? Like

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Speaker 1: why is that? But do you have any insight as

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Speaker 1: to why that is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's definitely a few factors there. So sometimes it

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Speaker 3: can be fear of what else am I going to do?

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Speaker 3: And they've invested so much time here, and maybe it

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Speaker 3: will get better, like maybe maybe it's going to change.

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Speaker 3: It's like when you're a bad relationship. Oh but been

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Speaker 3: in this relationship for five years and you know I've

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Speaker 3: invested so much. Maybe it's just going to get better,

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Speaker 3: and you hold on to that hope is over stay

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Speaker 3: or you stay too long. Again, when we think back

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Speaker 3: to childhood patterns, that may be a bit of a

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Speaker 3: mirror of what was going on in their childhood. So

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Speaker 3: that feels familiar to them, even though it's dysfunctional, it

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Speaker 3: feels familiar. So you stay because you're used to that

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Speaker 3: kind of environment. So there can be a whole range

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Speaker 3: of factors why you do stay. But at the end

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Speaker 3: of the day, you know your work, it will come

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Speaker 3: and go. But you do really need to protect you know,

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Speaker 3: your own mental health, don't you. And so I often say,

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Speaker 3: if you're an environment and it's unlikely that your boss

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Speaker 3: is going to change, the environment most likely will not change.

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Speaker 3: And there's this huge changes like at a leadership level,

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Speaker 3: then you know it's better to look for another opportunity.

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Speaker 2: I find that my kind of pattern that I recognize

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Speaker 2: myself now is that coming into God, even coming into Nova,

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Speaker 2: I want people to like and accept me so much

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Speaker 2: that I overdo it now because I'm so scarred from

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Speaker 2: other interactions with you not so nice people that I

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Speaker 2: might constantly like overcompensating. And that's like something that I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to break down.

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Speaker 1: Now and be like, you have to do everyone likes you, and.

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Speaker 2: Well, the conflict resolution within business is something that's really

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Speaker 2: interesting to me as well, because I always found that

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Speaker 2: that was probably the most traumatic process of the whole thing. Like, yes,

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Speaker 2: you've gone through these really nasty situations within a business,

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Speaker 2: but then the conflict resolution that happens with things like

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Speaker 2: HR and then the mediation between HR and the cause

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Speaker 2: of the problem, that was like the most traumatic part

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Speaker 2: of the whole thing, because then you're sitting there and

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Speaker 2: you're like, oh my god, it's all my fault that

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Speaker 2: this is happening. What advice do you have, Like, when's

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Speaker 2: that point where people should realize that this isn't worth it?

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Speaker 3: What's a good question to ask in terms of like

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Speaker 3: is this still working for me? I've tried all these

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Speaker 3: things and it's still not working. I need to look

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Speaker 3: at other options. And it depends on that person and

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Speaker 3: they're standing the organization. If they're a senior leader and

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Speaker 3: they're inn key leadership, they've go a lot of buying

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Speaker 3: in the organization, It's unlikely that they're going to change.

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Speaker 3: So unless you've really got that back into the scene,

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Speaker 3: your leadership and you feel like the HR practices, there's

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Speaker 3: all that support there. I just think sometimes if you

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Speaker 3: know you've got to continue working with that person's unlikely

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Speaker 3: they're probably going to change, So it might be you

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Speaker 3: making the change.

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Speaker 2: What are some healthy things to look out for within

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Speaker 2: like the HR or a business, Like if you're in

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Speaker 2: a situation like this, what are healthy practices that you

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Speaker 2: should look out for to be like cool, they have

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Speaker 2: my back?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think just the validation that you're not crazy,

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Speaker 3: you know in that moment, the gas lining of like

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Speaker 3: oh you know, they're just having a bad day, like

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Speaker 3: making excuses for that behavior. So just validation and acknowledgment

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Speaker 3: that what's happening is not okay, and then a really

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Speaker 3: clear plan. So this is what we're going to do

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Speaker 3: to fix this. So I think just that you're informed

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Speaker 3: of those processes, you're validated in your responses, and that

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Speaker 3: you feel supported in that journey. And I guess it's

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Speaker 3: hard because some people, you know, in your situation, the

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Speaker 3: bulling was quite clear. But sometimes you know, if you're

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Speaker 3: finding that wherever you go these problems follow you, that

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Speaker 3: you may be contributing.

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Speaker 1: To them, which isn't happening here.

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Speaker 3: Situation, but something. But you know you're the common denominated here.

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Speaker 3: I'm just saying that this is your situation.

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Speaker 2: But that thought crosses your mind. Yeah it is here,

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Speaker 2: But I mean I've never had any situation like that

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Speaker 2: happen at any other workplace. But when you're in it,

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Speaker 2: you're constantly you're questioning one the problem.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I really like this little phrase and I

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Speaker 3: often say it often is that how you experience someone

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Speaker 3: is how most people experience them. Wow. So when you're

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Speaker 3: having a difficult interaction, you know you've been around with someone,

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Speaker 3: you walk away and you just feel like you just

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Speaker 3: want to like dust yourself off. What was that? And

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Speaker 3: then you're just spiraling a little bit afterwards. You know, Wow,

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Speaker 3: what I just experienced, then most people would experience that.

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Speaker 3: So it's actually kind of validating if you know that

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Speaker 3: you're not the only one. And I'm sure that particular

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Speaker 3: person that you were interacting with, I'm pretty confident that

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Speaker 3: they would have similar interactions with other people, maybe not

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Speaker 3: to the degree that happened to you, but in their

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Speaker 3: history and maybe in the workplace. Were you aware that

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Speaker 3: they were doing similar things?

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Speaker 2: There were some pretty like consistent behavior patterns.

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Speaker 3: Yes, Yeah, so it's often not about us. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: often a trauma response and their own childhood wounds and

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Speaker 3: other things going on in their own world for them

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Speaker 3: to act in that way that is dysfunctional and often

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Speaker 3: a bit of a powerplay insecurity plays hugely into that

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Speaker 3: bullying behavior as well.

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Speaker 2: And these are things we don't think of when we're

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Speaker 2: in the situation.

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Speaker 1: No, And the interesting thing as well, is like being

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Speaker 1: on my end, being the business owner that is running

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Speaker 1: the workplace and hearing about things like this. Obviously we've

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Speaker 1: never had to touch wood, We never had to deal

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Speaker 1: with anything like that in the seven years of Fate.

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Speaker 1: We've definitely dealt with, you know, small little staff conflicts

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Speaker 1: or maybe someone said something that's just upset someone or

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Speaker 1: offended them or whatever, and we deal with that ourselves.

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Speaker 1: But one thing that I'm always mindful of, and I

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Speaker 1: guess having this conversation with you both today and I've

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Speaker 1: said it a million times, you know, on the internet

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Speaker 1: and in my podcast, is dealing with staff is the

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Speaker 1: hardest part of business. And it's like scenarios like this

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Speaker 1: that you're talking about, Like it's just being mindful as

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Speaker 1: a business owner and always aware of what's going on,

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Speaker 1: because so much shit can go on in a workplace,

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Speaker 1: as you know, Xander, and like I know the story

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Speaker 1: and things that you've experienced, and that is one of

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Speaker 1: my biggest fears as a business owner is I can

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Speaker 1: work as hard as I can to make the most

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Speaker 1: amazing workplace. We can have all the policies and procedures

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Speaker 1: in place and all the ducks in a row, but

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Speaker 1: it's so hard dealing with staff because sometimes people are

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Speaker 1: just going to cause issues. And that's like one of

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Speaker 1: the toughest pills to swallow as a business owner is

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Speaker 1: like you can be doing everything right and someone can

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Speaker 1: just then fuck it all up and create, you know,

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Speaker 1: so many problems, or be an extreme bully and like

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Speaker 1: just disrupt your business, and it's one thing in business

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Speaker 1: that you can't avoid that happening. And it's just really

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Speaker 1: like I'm just sitting here, like in this conversation, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: oh my god, I hope we never have to deal

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Speaker 1: with anything like this and gets involved in and it's this

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Speaker 1: person verse that person like touch would I never have

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Speaker 1: to deal with something.

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Speaker 2: I usually the one hearing about it. I'm like, oh

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Speaker 2: my god, the goss.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And then when you're in it, it's another ball game.

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Speaker 2: It's another ball game.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I've had earlier in my career. I had

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Speaker 3: similar experiences. It's you know, it's really difficult, and you know,

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Speaker 3: building on what you were just saying, I think what

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Speaker 3: I see in phenomenal leaders is the ability to have

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Speaker 3: difficult conversations.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I've got a saying that I always say, You're

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Speaker 1: gonna love it. You've probably already heard it before. But

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Speaker 1: the saying that I always say is hard conversations, easy life,

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Speaker 1: easy conversations, hard life, love it. I lived that. I

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Speaker 1: just went to say it backwards. Then I'm like, wait,

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Speaker 1: how do I say this? And like I said in

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Speaker 1: the main episode with you, like we don't like inflicts

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Speaker 1: as humans. We avoid it at all costs. We don't

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Speaker 1: want to have a tough conversation. But if there's one

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Speaker 1: thing that I've learned above all in my journey is

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Speaker 1: how important it is to just tackle that thing head on,

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Speaker 1: even if it's something tiny. I have learned from my

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Speaker 1: own experiences, if you just let something get swept under

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Speaker 1: the rug because it's only little and you don't want

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Speaker 1: to upset anyone, it will snowball into a massive problem

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Speaker 1: and then you'll be like, what on earth am I

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Speaker 1: supposed to do? And that's always my advice to people.

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Speaker 1: And it's always so hard when you're a new business

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Speaker 1: owner and you've just got your first couple of little

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Speaker 1: employees and you know, you're just really friendly with them,

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Speaker 1: and then they do something that's maybe a little out

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Speaker 1: of line or they've upset someone. It's really hard to

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Speaker 1: then know how to put on, you know, the big

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Speaker 1: boots and sit down and go, look like, let's chat

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Speaker 1: about this. And I was the same way when I

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Speaker 1: started faate. I didn't want to say anything bad to anyone.

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to upset someone. I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: call someone out if they'd done something wrong. In the business.

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Speaker 1: But I've really learned just the important of just having

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Speaker 1: a hard conversation to have the easy life.

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Speaker 3: I love that so much. And if you're listening and

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Speaker 3: you're thinking, oh my gosh, I want to be able

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Speaker 3: to have those difficult conversations, but how do you even

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Speaker 3: start that.

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Speaker 1: It's just taking the leap, Taking the leap.

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Speaker 3: And there's a phenomenal book by Brene Brown called Dare

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Speaker 3: to Lead, A bit of a plug for her love

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Speaker 3: her work. It's a fantastic book with a real framework

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Speaker 3: of how do you setup those conversations with your team,

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Speaker 3: how do you have those honest chats in a way

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Speaker 3: that's respectful. So some brilliant frameworks in there if you

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Speaker 3: want to check that out. She's also got a great

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Speaker 3: podcast too, Dare to Lead.

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Speaker 1: There you go, speaking of art workplaces, We've got a

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Speaker 1: little scenario for you. It's just like a made up scenario,

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Speaker 1: but we thought we would love to hear your feedback

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Speaker 1: on it. Obviously, hiring is a huge part of business,

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Speaker 1: and hiring the right person is everything. And that's another

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Speaker 1: thing that I've learned is just the importance of having

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Speaker 1: all the right people in all the right roles. And

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Speaker 1: how having one person, one wrong person in a role,

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Speaker 1: how it can just like throw the whole thing off.

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Speaker 1: And culture is everything. So I've got a scenario for you,

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Speaker 1: and i'd like to know your advice on it. Let's

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Speaker 1: say there's a scenario where you've got two people going

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Speaker 1: for a job. Okay, one of them is excellent culture wise,

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Speaker 1: like amazing culture wise, and the other one isn't very

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Speaker 1: good for the culture, but they're way better at doing

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Speaker 1: the job. Who would you be picking or what would

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Speaker 1: you be looking at in this scenario?

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Speaker 3: Okay, maybe I have a bias here, but based on

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Speaker 3: my background and the science and everything I've read and understand,

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Speaker 3: I would always choose the one that's the great for

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Speaker 3: the culture. Because skills can be taught.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent, you cannot teach someone their personality. That's

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Speaker 1: another thing I've learned as well. And like you said

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Speaker 1: earlier when you were talking with Xander, some people are

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Speaker 1: never going to change. So if you're hiring that person

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Speaker 1: who's not really the best for the culture but amazing

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Speaker 1: at the job, you can't then train them on their

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Speaker 1: personality to better fit the team. Just seeing the rise

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Speaker 1: of I guess younger people becoming bosses, and we have

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Speaker 1: all these millennials that are now you know, CEOs and

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Speaker 1: founders of companies. I feel like cultures becoming so much

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Speaker 1: more important, whereas maybe twenty years ago, it was just

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Speaker 1: show me your resume. Yep, you've got the skills, you're hired.

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Speaker 1: So culture is everything for me. And in that scenario,

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Speaker 1: I'd probably pick the culture fit as well and teach

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Speaker 1: them all the things they need to know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, you want to choose people that

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Speaker 3: have a gross mindset that are really keen to learn

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Speaker 3: and develop, and they're hungry to adjust their thinking and

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Speaker 3: learn new skills. I think that's really crucial. It's interesting

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Speaker 3: there's been all these studies done on what makes someone likable,

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Speaker 3: and someone who is generally likable has an equal blend

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Speaker 3: of warmth and competence. So that's kind of what you

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Speaker 3: want to look for. Someone who is warm and engaging

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Speaker 3: and connected. And even if they're an introvert, they don't

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Speaker 3: have to be overly expressive, but they have to kind of,

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Speaker 3: you know, be able to have a good interaction with your.

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Speaker 2: Team overly warm.

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Speaker 3: Temperature, but then that competence, So you I think this

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Speaker 3: is a twofold situation where you don't want someone who's

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Speaker 3: just great for the culture but doesn't have the competence. Yes,

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Speaker 3: you need them to have the skills and also the

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Speaker 3: mindset that they want to learn, versus someone who's just

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Speaker 3: brilliant but isn't going to be great for the culture.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, I think it's nuanced.

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Speaker 1: Well, thanks Susie for coming on the bonus episode, and

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Speaker 1: if you haven't listened to this week's main please do.

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Speaker 1: You said it wasn't a therapy session. I saw it

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Speaker 1: as a little bit of fun.

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Speaker 3: It was psycho education.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly right. Well, thanks again for joining us, and

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Speaker 1: we'll definitely have to get you back in the new year.

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Speaker 3: I'd love that. Thanks so much, guys,