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Speaker 1: Apoge Production, So welcome to this bonus episode of The

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Speaker 1: Missing Matter.

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Speaker 2: I was quite.

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Speaker 1: Fortunate to be able to fly down to Sydney and

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Speaker 1: actually meet with retired Detective Chief Inspector Gary Jubilin, who

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Speaker 1: is one of Australia's most respected and decorated homicide investigators.

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Speaker 1: He's had an amazing thirty four year career with New

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Speaker 1: South Wales Police and Gary and I sat and had

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Speaker 1: a chat. I had quite a few things I wanted

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Speaker 1: to ask him.

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Speaker 2: And what were those key things from Gary?

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Speaker 1: Well, look, there was a couple of things that you

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Speaker 1: and I have found while we've been on this journey.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to talk about the importance of from

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Speaker 1: an investigative point of view, the importance of us connecting

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Speaker 1: Rick Blum and my mum together overseas, and this this

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Speaker 1: is what happens as we're going And this is why

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Speaker 1: this podcast is so important, because we have people keeping

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Speaker 1: on contacting us and saying, hey, I knew this, and

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Speaker 1: I was here at this time and I can tell

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Speaker 1: you this, and there's some information that has come forward

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Speaker 1: that is I feel quite important and I wanted to

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Speaker 1: check that with Gary.

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Speaker 2: So Janet Oldenberg for example, she.

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Speaker 1: Told me, I'm I'm not going to do any spoilers here,

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Speaker 1: but she told me something that she wished that she'd

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Speaker 1: told the police after she sort of thought about it,

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Speaker 1: and I felt like she was beating herself up a

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Speaker 1: little bit at the time she was telling me, which

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Speaker 1: was at Christmas time last year, I took her out

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Speaker 1: for lunch and she said, I probably should have told

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Speaker 1: the police this, But I said to her, it's very

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Speaker 1: difficult when the police are asking you questions because you

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Speaker 1: technically just answer the question that you are being asked

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Speaker 1: by them. You're not sort of moving forward and telling

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Speaker 1: them and information that they're particularly not asking for. And

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Speaker 1: this happened as well with Galaane. You and I in

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Speaker 1: Belgium were sitting having tea and a beautiful spread of

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Speaker 1: food put on by Galaane's family, and she popped a

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Speaker 1: bombshell for us. So we talk about that with Gary

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Speaker 1: and I just wanted to ask if he felt that

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Speaker 1: this is important information for the investigative team that are

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Speaker 1: working on my mom's case. And you also appeared on

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Speaker 1: an episode of his podcast, which was Eye Catch Killers.

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Speaker 1: He and I chatted for a very long time. I

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Speaker 1: think we ended up probably five hours wow of chat.

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Speaker 1: So for me personally meeting him, like I have followed

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Speaker 1: him for a long time, I have huge respect for him,

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Speaker 1: and in a way I was always like, I wish

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Speaker 1: I just need the passion that he showed in a

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Speaker 1: lot of his cases that I really just felt like

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Speaker 1: I needed someone to just give me that and have

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Speaker 1: that passion to help me find the answers to mum. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: one of the big cases that he had was with

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Speaker 1: Fay and Mark Levison and in solving essentially their son

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Speaker 1: Matthew Levison, who was missing for ten years and they

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Speaker 1: ended up finding him through his investigations and his push

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Speaker 1: and you know, he told me about things like that

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Speaker 1: and we do talk about that in his episode, and

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Speaker 1: about how important it is just to keep pushing. He said,

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Speaker 1: even though he was getting told that's not going to

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Speaker 1: be possible and that you can't do that, He's encouraged

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Speaker 1: me to keep going and say, you keep pushing and

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Speaker 1: you keep doing what you're doing. And you know, it

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Speaker 1: was a great privilege for me to meet him and

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Speaker 1: for him to give me the time that he did

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Speaker 1: to help me with understanding from you know, and he

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Speaker 1: helped me and guided me a little bit too with

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Speaker 1: some language that I'm unsure about because, as I said before,

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Speaker 1: there's no guidebook here, so he was able to answer

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Speaker 1: quite a few of those questions for me as well.

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Speaker 3: Thanks very much, Sally, thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely. I guess the reason why I wanted to to you.

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Speaker 1: I've always looked at you as somebody who is just

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Speaker 1: really super passionate in the space of being a detective.

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Speaker 1: And obviously I followed your movements with William and with

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Speaker 1: Matthew Levison and some really big cases as well, and

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Speaker 1: I would like to say thank you to you for

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Speaker 1: your hard work and the efforts in those fields, because

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Speaker 1: we need people like you.

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Speaker 2: To help us.

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Speaker 3: Let's very much appreciate it, and yeah, it's always a

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Speaker 3: team effort with it, but yeah, I appreciate.

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Speaker 1: Your kind and we wanted to bring you into our

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Speaker 1: podcasts The Missing Matter because we've got some interesting topics

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Speaker 1: that we're talking about and we wanted to sort of

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Speaker 1: get your expertise if you.

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Speaker 3: Like, happy to help. And can I just say up front,

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Speaker 3: I know what you've been through with the disappearance of

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Speaker 3: your mother and how hard you've worked to get answers,

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Speaker 3: and there's been an inquest that revealed something, but not

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Speaker 3: a lot of things that you had hoped that would

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Speaker 3: come out. And now you're still continuing a campaign on

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Speaker 3: the podcast that brings me here. Now, I think it's

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Speaker 3: so important the work that you're doing and showing people

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Speaker 3: what can be done if you don't take no for

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Speaker 3: an answer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well, definitely.

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Speaker 1: I think there's people out there that probably don't like

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Speaker 1: the fact that I don't take care.

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Speaker 3: You're not going to be popular. I'm just saying some

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Speaker 3: people might find the inspiration.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and you know what, I think it's an

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Speaker 1: important part of the journey. And I think for me,

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Speaker 1: I have learned so much. I have met some amazing humans,

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Speaker 1: and during my journey to find my mum, I have

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Speaker 1: been through a lot, and as I said, I've met

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Speaker 1: some amazing people. And some of those people have offered

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Speaker 1: me some really sound advice and given me some care

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Speaker 1: and concern.

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Speaker 2: And some people just give me a hug.

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Speaker 1: Some people just say, you know, I really care about you,

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Speaker 1: and they they remember my mum. And I think one

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Speaker 1: of the biggest things that's come out of this for

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Speaker 1: me is my mum was such a taboo subject. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't allowed to talk about her to my grandmother, or

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Speaker 1: to her sisters, or you know, my children. I was

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Speaker 1: sort of careful about talking about it with them because

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Speaker 1: I didn't want to bring a trauma onto them unnecessarily

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Speaker 1: or extra on top of what it already is. Right,

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Speaker 1: they go to Grandparents' Day at school, they don't have

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Speaker 1: their grandparents coming. There's always been a bit of a cloud.

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Speaker 1: And one of the most recent things, I guess, if

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Speaker 1: I bring it in now, is Mother's Day was only

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Speaker 1: what a week and a half ago, and my birthday

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Speaker 1: is the twelfth of May, so my birthday was actually

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Speaker 1: the day after Mother's Day.

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Speaker 2: And a few years.

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Speaker 1: Ago my kids actually said to me that they were

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Speaker 1: really struggling to celebrate me on Mother's Day because I

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Speaker 1: was always quite sad and I just couldn't pull myself

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Speaker 1: out of it. I just kept I don't know, I

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Speaker 1: felt like I couldn't be happy on Mother's Day because

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Speaker 1: my mom wasn't there, and I kept thinking about her.

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Speaker 1: And it was only a few years ago that I

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Speaker 1: actually just sat up and listened to what the kids

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Speaker 1: had said to me, and I thought, you know, what

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Speaker 1: I actually do deserve to be celebrated as their mum.

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Speaker 1: I love being their mum and I love that space

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Speaker 1: in my world. And I know my mum would actually

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Speaker 1: want me to be happy and want me to be

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Speaker 1: celebrating and not be thinking of sad things. So I've

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Speaker 1: really pulled it together if I can say that, the

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Speaker 1: kids have told me I'm doing better, you know, just

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Speaker 1: to try to be happier and have a better time

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Speaker 1: with them and celebrate the time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I look at it, and this is from my

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Speaker 3: experience dealing with people that have lost loved ones and disappearances,

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Speaker 3: not having answers the type of thing that you've been

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Speaker 3: going through. It's hard because some people don't want to

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Speaker 3: talk about it because you've said taboo subject. That's almost

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Speaker 3: like it's too confronting. People don't know how to say

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Speaker 3: as simple and some people I know the loss of

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Speaker 3: loved ones said the most meaningful thing someone just comes

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Speaker 3: up to them and gives them a hug and says,

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Speaker 3: this is stuffed, as simple as that and walks away.

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Speaker 3: But what you've been through in the campaign, it keeps

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Speaker 3: it in the forefront the whole time. But can I

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Speaker 3: just make this comment the fact that we're sitting here,

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Speaker 3: we're talking about your mom. We've talked about your mom.

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Speaker 3: People know about your mom. Your mom's living on in

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Speaker 3: people's memories because of the work you've done, and you

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Speaker 3: should sort of focus on that on Mother's Day. Not

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Speaker 3: that I'm a good one to give.

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Speaker 2: Life advice, but that's a good Yeah.

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Speaker 3: The fact that you're working so hard tells me how

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Speaker 3: much your mum was loved.

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Speaker 1: So anyway, let me get into some questions and see

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Speaker 1: what you think. I've never done this before. I've never

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Speaker 1: asked questions on a podcast before. I just wanted to

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Speaker 1: say the Currenter did place my mom and Rick Blum

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Speaker 1: together overseas at some point in the UK in her findings.

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Speaker 2: Now, there's no firm information that has been.

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Speaker 1: Found to date to link Rick Blum to my mum

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Speaker 1: on her overseas trip that she went on in June

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven. This is important as their dates aligne

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Speaker 1: both their departure date and their return to Australia.

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Speaker 3: I found that very interesting. It was two days apart

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Speaker 3: in the general travel area were very similar. Huge coincidence.

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Speaker 1: Now, Rick Blum denies traveling with my mum. Just for

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Speaker 1: the record, but one aspect that we wanted to confirm

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Speaker 1: was my mum in Japan. So what we know is

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Speaker 1: that my mum actually wrote to me on notepaper from

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Speaker 1: Hotel on Nico in Narrita. She also posted it in

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Speaker 1: the envelope from the hotel, but she didn't post it

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Speaker 1: until I think it was ten days later, eight days

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Speaker 1: later in the UK from tom Bridge. So what I've

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Speaker 1: explained before with Interpol, Interpol only capture where you first land.

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Speaker 1: So if you're going to the UK for a holiday

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Speaker 1: and you're going via Singapore, they'll only capture the Singapore

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Speaker 1: stop over, they won't capture that you're going to England.

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Speaker 1: So we had a similar problem with mum because she

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Speaker 1: flew on Korean Air and she stopped in South Korea

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Speaker 1: as her first stop. I did some research and found

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Speaker 1: out speaking to Korean Air giving them the same flight

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Speaker 1: number which is still current today, and they said that

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Speaker 1: back in nineteen ninety seven, it was the cheapest way

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Speaker 1: for people to get to Tokyo or Japan via South

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Speaker 1: Korea and they were offering this free transfer service with

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Speaker 1: their ticket. Joanie and I told you we went on

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Speaker 1: a trip on a research trip to try and find

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Speaker 1: some information. One of the key things about going to Japan.

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Speaker 1: There are a couple that I'll focus on. This one

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Speaker 1: with you, Gary is did she arrive in Japan or not?

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Speaker 1: So just for clarification, when Rick Blum was interviewed by police,

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Speaker 1: he actually was asked what hotel did you stay in

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Speaker 1: when you went to Japan, and he just very quickly

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Speaker 1: replied with Hotel Niko Narrita and apparently it was his

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Speaker 1: common denominator when he went overseas. Now, Janie and I

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Speaker 1: stayed there. It's a super cheap hotel. I think we

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Speaker 1: paid I don't know, one hundred and twenty dollars a

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Speaker 1: night or something, so pretty cheap. It's got a free

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Speaker 1: bus shuttle that comes from the airport straight over and

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Speaker 1: offering free breakfast back in that time, is what mister

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Speaker 1: Blum said on the stand. So what we're trying to

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Speaker 1: achieve is going to Japan. We were told by homicide

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Speaker 1: detectives that they did look into it, and that Immigration

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Speaker 1: had told them that they didn't have any records, only

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Speaker 1: kept record seven years. So we rock up and we

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Speaker 1: actually went to the Immigration department ourselves in person in Tokyo.

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Speaker 1: I took my cousin, Simon and his son came along

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Speaker 1: and his son speaks fluent Japanese and English, so he

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Speaker 1: was our interpreter. And we sat down at the desk

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Speaker 1: and it was very triggering for me, actually, because the

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Speaker 1: man talking to us kept laughing as his talking, and

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Speaker 1: it was you know how some people nervously laugh when

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Speaker 1: they're talking. And I was sitting there going, I don't

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Speaker 1: know how to feel about his response and how he's

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Speaker 1: reacting here. But in a nutshell, he told me that

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Speaker 1: my grant of probate, which I had worked really hard

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Speaker 1: to get after the inquest finding, yeah, jump through hoops

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Speaker 1: to get the death certificate, mum changing her name to

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Speaker 1: Floribella Ramckel and having only her passport in the name

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Speaker 1: of Florabella Ramckel, but everything else was in Marion Bart.

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Speaker 1: That was a nightmare, Like the whole changing of the name.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it was done on purpose, just to make

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Speaker 1: me lose my mind. But we rock up and he

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Speaker 1: says to us, really sorry, but those documents don't count

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Speaker 1: in Japan, okay, And it goes they only count in Australia,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, surely not. So I was having

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Speaker 1: a moment and that time going. I've just worked really

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Speaker 1: hard to get these documents. We've just flown to Japan

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Speaker 1: to come and see you in person to check out

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Speaker 1: whether we can access those files.

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Speaker 2: And he said, no, you can't, And.

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Speaker 1: He pretty much said to me that I would have

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Speaker 1: to engage and pay for a lawyer in Japan, a

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Speaker 1: Japanese lawyer, to be able to access that information. In

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Speaker 1: doing so, we sat there and confirmed with him through

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Speaker 1: our interpreter that yes, they do hold the records, and

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Speaker 1: they do go back until the seventies, so we know

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Speaker 1: for a fact that there are records sitting there in Japan.

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Speaker 3: I just can't actual say the boarding record of your

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Speaker 3: mum card through Core.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's really important because we have not

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Speaker 1: been at this point been able to determine whether Mum

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Speaker 1: did go to Japan or not, and if there is

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Speaker 1: an incoming passenger card with her name on it to

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Speaker 1: say that she did land in Japan. And she's written

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Speaker 1: to me on Hotel Niko, and I read a notepad

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Speaker 1: and Rick Blum has said that he stayed at that

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Speaker 1: hotel that links them together.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a fair assumption. You're probably wondering

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Speaker 3: homicide have said or police have said that the records

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Speaker 3: weren't available because they only keep them for seven years. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: if you've uncovered that information, this is the way I

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Speaker 3: deal with it. I'd pass that information on to the police,

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Speaker 3: the ones that have got carriage of your mum's investigation now,

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Speaker 3: and it might be a situation that they're going to

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Speaker 3: apply through interpoll. But you'd be looking at now that

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Speaker 3: your mum's declared deceased, you're looking at a murder investigation

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Speaker 3: which carries some clout or suspected murder investigation, and obtain

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Speaker 3: the records. What weight would that put on a brief

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Speaker 3: of evidence. Well, it all adds to the circumstances. I'm

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Speaker 3: not familiar with all the evidence available, but for the

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Speaker 3: sake of a report, I'd probably suggest you pass that

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Speaker 3: information on because they might have been genuine. A lot

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Speaker 3: of our records here only retain for seven years. But

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Speaker 3: if you've got information to the country, I'd pass that

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Speaker 3: information onto police and hopefully they'll follow it up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And what I've learned through this journey, and I pretty

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Speaker 1: much learned it through JOONI, is that archives do hold records.

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Speaker 1: So even though some departments. You would know this as well.

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Speaker 1: The departments don't hold the records anymore, but they actually

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Speaker 1: do go and sit behind that archive.

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Speaker 2: Wall, which I had no idea.

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Speaker 1: So we've been able to pull files out from the

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Speaker 1: sixties and seventies because they fall into the open access period, right,

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Speaker 1: So you can't go and get records sometimes within the

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Speaker 1: twenty year period, like there's still there's a block on that.

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Speaker 1: And that's kind of like, even though I've always said

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Speaker 1: it's been difficult to access the information because of the

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Speaker 1: length of time, the length of time in that case

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Speaker 1: actually helped because it was open and access was available

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Speaker 1: to us. So Joany's been able to access a huge

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Speaker 1: amount of information based on just that alone coming out.

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Speaker 3: But I think on that issue of the letter on

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Speaker 3: the hotel letterhead that you received, the coroner considered four options,

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Speaker 3: if I remember from reading of the coroner's finding, its

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Speaker 3: four options and discounted too and the possibility of to others,

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Speaker 3: either your mother was over there in takeout at the time,

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Speaker 3: or he took the notepad from the hotel and the

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Speaker 3: letter was written from another Like.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there was a lot in there because

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Speaker 1: we were sort of feeding that into the narrative, going Okay,

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Speaker 1: what do we think this?

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Speaker 2: Do we think that?

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Speaker 1: And I think at the end of the findings she

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Speaker 1: came to the conclusion that Mum didn't go to Japan

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Speaker 1: and she met with Rick Blum over in the UK

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Speaker 1: somewhere without being known. I mean, there is another bit

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Speaker 1: of information, and this is where great people come into it. Again.

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Speaker 1: We had a lady named Christina who was living over

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Speaker 1: in the UK who did a huge amount of work

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Speaker 1: as well, and she found a guy over.

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Speaker 2: There who looks at stamping of mail.

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Speaker 1: So when you look at the postcards from Mum and

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Speaker 1: the letter, there's all these little tiny blue lines that

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Speaker 1: actually go across the top of the stamp, and so

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Speaker 1: he was able to So I had to go to

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Speaker 1: the photoshop, get them scanned properly and really really high

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Speaker 1: reds and copied and then send them back to Christina.

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Speaker 1: She then sent them on too this guy, and he

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Speaker 1: was able to look at those dots and identify exactly

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Speaker 1: where Mum posted that letter and what date and whether

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Speaker 1: it was am or PM. So we have another situation

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Speaker 1: where we have a postcard, we know where it was

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Speaker 1: posted from. We also know that there was a coin

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Speaker 1: auction in the same backyard as that where that letter

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Speaker 1: was posted the same weekend that mum posted it. This

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Speaker 1: is what happens when time flows on right. So I

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Speaker 1: feel that we finished the inquest, that was done and dusted,

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Speaker 1: but people are still living and people are still living

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Speaker 1: this trauma, not just me, but some of the other

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Speaker 1: people that we had as witnesses who came on. There

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Speaker 1: is a lady who lives in Brisbane and I went

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Speaker 1: over with Channel seven actually and we did an interview

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Speaker 1: for TV a couple of years ago and since then.

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Speaker 1: When I went to her house that time with Allison,

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Speaker 1: I just said to her, oh, here's my number. Can

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Speaker 1: I grab your number? Let's keep in touch and we

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Speaker 1: have We've I go and pick her up. I take

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Speaker 1: her out for coffee, we'll go and have breakfast, and

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Speaker 1: sometimes we have lunch. And she's lovely and such a soft,

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Speaker 1: beautiful human. Her name is Janet, and I took her

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Speaker 1: out for lunch at Christmas time last year and we

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Speaker 1: were sitting there and she was telling me about her

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Speaker 1: health and things that were happening in her world at

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Speaker 1: the moment. But she said, I did think of something

351
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Speaker 1: that I probably should have told the police that I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I said, oh, what was that and she said, well,

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Speaker 1: when we were in Bali together, being her and Rick Blum,

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Speaker 1: because they traveled together in nineteen ninety nine in the

355
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Speaker 1: December to Indonesia and then on to England. So that

356
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Speaker 1: has been confirmed and proven by records and outgoing and

357
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Speaker 1: incoming passenger cards and confirmed in the inquest. But she

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Speaker 1: said that she alleges that while they were in Bali,

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Speaker 1: Rick Blum made her write two letters to her family,

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Speaker 1: telling them that she didn't want anything to do with

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Speaker 1: them and that she was going to permanently live with

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Speaker 1: him overseas. She said that he commented that her handwriting

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Speaker 1: was slightly different on the second letter, and she said

364
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Speaker 1: that he kept both letters and they've never been seen again.

365
00:19:14,840 --> 00:19:18,521
Speaker 3: Right, what you're describing there, because they're separate people from

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Speaker 3: your mother. And I think from memory reading the Currenter's findings,

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Speaker 3: who was five or so women that mister Blum had

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Speaker 3: in his life that gave evidence at the inquest, you're

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Speaker 3: looking at tendency and coincidence evidence. Now, tendency and coincidence

370
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:38,080
Speaker 3: evidence is strikingly similar facts. Just for Layman's point of view,

371
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Speaker 3: we might use it with a serial rapist or a

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Speaker 3: serial killer if there's a tendency and coincidence in the

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Speaker 3: way that the crimes committed. Where the sticking point if

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Speaker 3: you're looking from an investigative point of view, is tendency

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Speaker 3: and coincidence showing a pattern of behavior. I'm just speculating

376
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Speaker 3: on that, not the full details, but if it's showing

377
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Speaker 3: the pattern of behavior, the evidentiary weight that can be

378
00:20:01,481 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 3: placed on that, I'm not entirely sure because yes, we'll

379
00:20:05,281 --> 00:20:08,360
Speaker 3: talk hypothetically so we don't get ourselves into trouble. How

380
00:20:08,360 --> 00:20:11,001
Speaker 3: do you use that in your mum's case because your

381
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:14,161
Speaker 3: mum is the only one that's disappeared, So there might

382
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Speaker 3: be legal argument, and I think the coroner or the

383
00:20:16,561 --> 00:20:19,520
Speaker 3: council assisting the coroner address that in part in the

384
00:20:19,561 --> 00:20:23,721
Speaker 3: findings at the inquest that although it relates to tendency

385
00:20:23,721 --> 00:20:27,360
Speaker 3: in coincidence evidence, whether the admissibility or weight that can

386
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,761
Speaker 3: be placed on it depends on the nature of the

387
00:20:29,801 --> 00:20:35,241
Speaker 3: crime that might be. It's a very very complex legal situation,

388
00:20:35,801 --> 00:20:39,001
Speaker 3: but from an investigative point of view, sometimes I take

389
00:20:39,041 --> 00:20:42,041
Speaker 3: the complexity out and let's not worry about the case

390
00:20:42,120 --> 00:20:44,880
Speaker 3: law what that's telling me is there is a pattern

391
00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:49,160
Speaker 3: of behavior. Maybe there's another person around that might have

392
00:20:49,241 --> 00:20:51,920
Speaker 3: a piece of the puzzle that's missing in your mum's

393
00:20:51,961 --> 00:20:55,281
Speaker 3: disappearance that might be able to help. So, from an

394
00:20:55,281 --> 00:20:58,600
Speaker 3: investigative point of view, if you're asking me, would I

395
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,161
Speaker 3: be interested in that if I was running this investigation,

396
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,120
Speaker 3: most definitely, I'd be wanting to speak to women that

397
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,321
Speaker 3: have been approached by the person in the same manner.

398
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:11,120
Speaker 3: And it looks like I'm assuming because once the homicide

399
00:21:11,120 --> 00:21:13,360
Speaker 3: have got involved, these people have been put in the

400
00:21:13,360 --> 00:21:15,400
Speaker 3: brief of evidence to the coroner, so that gave the

401
00:21:15,441 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 3: coroner a pretty clear view of what happened. And I

402
00:21:19,721 --> 00:21:22,281
Speaker 3: surmising here but probably formed part of the view on

403
00:21:22,321 --> 00:21:24,321
Speaker 3: why the coroner was so scathing in some of the

404
00:21:24,360 --> 00:21:28,321
Speaker 3: comments made about the evidence of mister blum Well. I

405
00:21:28,360 --> 00:21:32,120
Speaker 3: suppose in that regards like moving forward or making progress

406
00:21:32,120 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 3: in the investigation, because I make the coroner referred it

407
00:21:35,001 --> 00:21:39,721
Speaker 3: to the unsolved homicide in the recommendations where it it's

408
00:21:39,761 --> 00:21:42,640
Speaker 3: been followed up, I'm assuming it has been that the

409
00:21:43,041 --> 00:21:48,281
Speaker 3: investigation remains open. You've gathered this information. Some people might

410
00:21:48,321 --> 00:21:50,641
Speaker 3: say stay out of the investigation. You'll wreck it by

411
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 3: doing these inquiries. Well, you've created the investigation by doing

412
00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 3: the inquiry, so I just assure you on that. But

413
00:21:56,921 --> 00:21:59,761
Speaker 3: if you've got that information, I would pass it on

414
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:01,761
Speaker 3: the police. The people that are in charge of the

415
00:22:01,761 --> 00:22:04,440
Speaker 3: investigation have to make the determination whether they're going to

416
00:22:04,441 --> 00:22:07,161
Speaker 3: follow it up. But if you've got that information, i'd

417
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,321
Speaker 3: always encourage you to pass it on.

418
00:22:11,961 --> 00:22:13,561
Speaker 2: Yeah, well I have, Yeah, I have.

419
00:22:13,721 --> 00:22:16,121
Speaker 1: But this is all pretty new too, so we're sort

420
00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 1: of rolling through it as we're going, and I have

421
00:22:18,721 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 1: let them know that information, so I'm always very open

422
00:22:23,041 --> 00:22:26,681
Speaker 1: about telling them and anything that's important we are feeding

423
00:22:26,721 --> 00:22:27,960
Speaker 1: back to them all the time.

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Speaker 2: So rest assured I am. We are doing that.

425
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Speaker 3: And look, well I won't say a disadvantage the fact

426
00:22:34,761 --> 00:22:37,121
Speaker 3: that I know Nigel Warren. I know him very well

427
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:40,120
Speaker 3: because he was on my team. He's a decent person

428
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,921
Speaker 3: and very very good detective. And yeah, I'm hoping, assuming

429
00:22:43,961 --> 00:22:46,441
Speaker 3: he's still in a position where he's got that control,

430
00:22:46,521 --> 00:22:48,241
Speaker 3: will do what needs to be done.

431
00:22:48,441 --> 00:22:52,321
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, we can only hope. I understand. I understand

432
00:22:52,321 --> 00:22:54,481
Speaker 1: there are limits as to what they can do as well,

433
00:22:54,481 --> 00:23:00,241
Speaker 1: But you know, I'm not finished yet. Keep going, keep

434
00:23:00,281 --> 00:23:04,801
Speaker 1: going so okay, So with case matching and looking at

435
00:23:04,921 --> 00:23:08,881
Speaker 1: us the reportable incidents once travel movement records were gained.

436
00:23:09,281 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 1: We actually have records from the Department of Immigration that

437
00:23:12,761 --> 00:23:16,441
Speaker 1: were gained by New South Wales Police of Rick Blum

438
00:23:16,561 --> 00:23:20,561
Speaker 1: leaving the country fifteen times from the twenty third of

439
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: September nineteen eighty seven up until the ninth October two

440
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,401
Speaker 1: thousand and eight. Should there be a curiosity about these

441
00:23:28,441 --> 00:23:32,561
Speaker 1: travel movements and considering the pattern above, the fact that

442
00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,961
Speaker 1: prior to my mum going missing in nineteen ninety seven,

443
00:23:35,041 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 1: there have been no other women reported to have interactions

444
00:23:38,201 --> 00:23:39,201
Speaker 1: with Reck Blum.

445
00:23:38,961 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 3: In regards to worthwhile looking into your mum's case, I

446
00:23:43,321 --> 00:23:47,680
Speaker 3: think every avenue should be explored in your mum's case.

447
00:23:47,801 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 3: And yeah, if there's a line of inquiry if it

448
00:23:50,801 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 3: relates to and I'm taking from the words of the coroner,

449
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:55,761
Speaker 3: so I want to be careful here. It's not me

450
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,561
Speaker 3: forming the opinion. It's just the coroner has said that

451
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 3: in her opinion from an extensive cranial inquist city was

452
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 3: we're folding information had more knowledge. So if that's the

453
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 3: starting point from a detect this point of view, I

454
00:24:08,481 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 3: think it's prudent to follow up. Okay, if he's not

455
00:24:11,441 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 3: going to because people don't tell the truth in the

456
00:24:14,201 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 3: witness box, or we've hold information, it's prudent on the

457
00:24:17,441 --> 00:24:19,880
Speaker 3: police to follow up that information and find out what's

458
00:24:19,921 --> 00:24:20,360
Speaker 3: going on.

459
00:24:21,201 --> 00:24:23,801
Speaker 1: And So, in all your years as a detective, have

460
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:28,801
Speaker 1: you ever stumbled across anybody that has had ten Australian

461
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: passports issued to them?

462
00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 3: No? No, I haven't. I haven't, And I've come across

463
00:24:35,961 --> 00:24:40,521
Speaker 3: some interesting and diverse range of people, But that many

464
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 3: aliases or ten passports issue, I'm confused how you can

465
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:47,241
Speaker 3: get away with it in this dar and age.

466
00:24:47,561 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: We've all sort of looked at mum right as the

467
00:24:49,761 --> 00:24:52,160
Speaker 1: starting point, and we go forward from there, and we

468
00:24:52,241 --> 00:24:54,881
Speaker 1: have found a few women who have had dealings with

469
00:24:55,001 --> 00:24:59,801
Speaker 1: Rick Blum allegedly. Would you go backwards is probably what

470
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:02,281
Speaker 1: we were sort of getting at, because and have a

471
00:25:02,281 --> 00:25:06,961
Speaker 1: look at any potential people pre nineteen ninety seven? Would

472
00:25:07,001 --> 00:25:09,321
Speaker 1: that be something that the detectives would be looking at,

473
00:25:09,360 --> 00:25:11,840
Speaker 1: because you gonna understand, I don't tell me what they're doing,

474
00:25:12,201 --> 00:25:14,801
Speaker 1: I don't know what they're and you would know well

475
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:17,680
Speaker 1: that because you probably were doing the same thing. But

476
00:25:17,921 --> 00:25:20,281
Speaker 1: you know, I wonder if that is something that is

477
00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:22,921
Speaker 1: of interest to see if there's any past behavior.

478
00:25:23,041 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, Sally, it's appropriate that they don't tell you

479
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:29,400
Speaker 3: everything because they'll be protecting the integrity of the investigation.

480
00:25:29,481 --> 00:25:32,561
Speaker 3: But having said that, given the circumstances and the background

481
00:25:32,561 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 3: to this, I think there's a degree of trust they

482
00:25:35,281 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 3: could place in you and telling you if I was

483
00:25:37,921 --> 00:25:41,400
Speaker 3: involved in the investigation, given the fact without you there

484
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,121
Speaker 3: wouldn't be an investigation. Let's be realistic. I'm confident enough

485
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 3: to say that it's only because of the campaigning and

486
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,721
Speaker 3: the agitation that you'll cause that there has been an investigation.

487
00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:55,201
Speaker 3: So I think you've earned a degree of trust going

488
00:25:55,241 --> 00:25:58,881
Speaker 3: back that far. Yeah, resourcing, and I cringe every time

489
00:25:58,921 --> 00:26:01,881
Speaker 3: I say resourcing in policing, But it's a reality. It's

490
00:26:01,921 --> 00:26:06,041
Speaker 3: not infinite what happened prior to ninety seven. Yes, I'm

491
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,521
Speaker 3: interested in what was the lead up to it, But

492
00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,441
Speaker 3: you might have to make a decision, well, what can

493
00:26:10,481 --> 00:26:14,641
Speaker 3: we prove if we're investigating this, Because a stripeforce will

494
00:26:14,681 --> 00:26:17,761
Speaker 3: have a specific terms of reference, so that I'm anticipating

495
00:26:18,201 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 3: the terms of reference for your mum's disappearance will be

496
00:26:20,961 --> 00:26:25,761
Speaker 3: to investigate the circumstances surrounding the suspicious disappearance of your mother.

497
00:26:26,961 --> 00:26:29,321
Speaker 3: That's terms of reference. We can't go too far out,

498
00:26:29,360 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 3: so you can't investigate fraud matters from the nineteen sixties

499
00:26:33,120 --> 00:26:37,720
Speaker 3: or different things like that. But yes, ideal world, you

500
00:26:37,761 --> 00:26:40,241
Speaker 3: would look up a lead up to it with the

501
00:26:40,321 --> 00:26:43,761
Speaker 3: view of seeing if it's going to uncover that little

502
00:26:43,801 --> 00:26:45,440
Speaker 3: piece of evidence that you need.

503
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:50,041
Speaker 1: What's your opinion when the coroner puts a case with

504
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,201
Speaker 1: the unsolved homicide team. So Joanie and I talk about

505
00:26:54,201 --> 00:26:57,721
Speaker 1: this and we say, well, if she was just missing,

506
00:26:58,041 --> 00:27:00,761
Speaker 1: and I don't say just in that sense the word,

507
00:27:00,801 --> 00:27:03,680
Speaker 1: but if she's missing, she would go back to the

508
00:27:03,921 --> 00:27:08,841
Speaker 1: missing person's unit. But because she's put her with unsolved homicide,

509
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,281
Speaker 1: is she referring to her as being murdered or foul play?

510
00:27:12,561 --> 00:27:16,481
Speaker 3: The fact that it's gone to unsolved homicide is suggestive

511
00:27:16,521 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 3: of the fact that there's a warrants someone looking at

512
00:27:20,241 --> 00:27:23,561
Speaker 3: it for a potential homicide. Now that might play out

513
00:27:23,561 --> 00:27:25,201
Speaker 3: to be the fact, but the fact that it's gone

514
00:27:25,201 --> 00:27:29,121
Speaker 3: the homicide, they'll be looking at it as a potential homicide.

515
00:27:29,201 --> 00:27:33,561
Speaker 3: If it was missing person, it's literally someone that's wandered.

516
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,201
Speaker 3: Often no suspicious circumstances, we just can't find them. That

517
00:27:37,241 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 3: goes into the category of missing person. The fact that

518
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,041
Speaker 3: it's been referred to unsolved homicide. The coroner is hoping

519
00:27:44,041 --> 00:27:47,721
Speaker 3: that the homicide squad would be following that up.

520
00:27:48,001 --> 00:27:50,881
Speaker 1: After everything I've gone through in almost twenty eight years.

521
00:27:50,921 --> 00:27:52,600
Speaker 1: So next month it will be twenty eight years since

522
00:27:52,681 --> 00:27:55,521
Speaker 1: Mum left on that trip of a lifetime and never

523
00:27:55,561 --> 00:27:58,321
Speaker 1: came back. I've been living with a missing person for

524
00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 1: a long time. It does frustrate me that I still

525
00:28:01,961 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 1: hear today police coming on the t and someone's gone missing,

526
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: and they say, we're not treating it as suspicious, and

527
00:28:09,521 --> 00:28:13,801
Speaker 1: they say it pretty quick, like the out of the gates,

528
00:28:13,801 --> 00:28:17,001
Speaker 1: and it's you know, I think Samantha Murphy. You probably know,

529
00:28:17,241 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 1: like from Victoria. That was another big case that had

530
00:28:19,681 --> 00:28:22,360
Speaker 1: a lot of media behind it. And if my memory

531
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,761
Speaker 1: serves me correctly, I do believe they said they're not

532
00:28:24,801 --> 00:28:26,761
Speaker 1: treating it as suspicious initially.

533
00:28:26,761 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 2: And then they do.

534
00:28:29,441 --> 00:28:32,640
Speaker 1: And I've been on this bandwagon Gary where I've been saying,

535
00:28:32,721 --> 00:28:36,561
Speaker 1: start at suspicious and work backwards from there. If you

536
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,521
Speaker 1: find the person in twenty four hours, we'll pad on

537
00:28:38,521 --> 00:28:42,561
Speaker 1: the back, great job, but it worries me that, you know,

538
00:28:42,761 --> 00:28:44,881
Speaker 1: if they hold off and they make the assumption that

539
00:28:44,921 --> 00:28:48,201
Speaker 1: it's not suspicious. And there's just been too many cases

540
00:28:48,241 --> 00:28:50,281
Speaker 1: in the mix that I've come across so over the

541
00:28:50,361 --> 00:28:52,681
Speaker 1: last you know, five or six years, where they say

542
00:28:52,721 --> 00:28:55,281
Speaker 1: it and then it turns out that there's been foul play,

543
00:28:55,321 --> 00:28:58,121
Speaker 1: or they've been found deceased and murdered and things like that.

544
00:28:58,641 --> 00:29:01,921
Speaker 1: They're losing that important part of time where they've got

545
00:29:01,961 --> 00:29:07,001
Speaker 1: CCTV footage and they've got phone pinging on towers, all

546
00:29:07,001 --> 00:29:09,961
Speaker 1: the data that can actually help the people. What's your

547
00:29:10,041 --> 00:29:11,761
Speaker 1: thoughts and theories on that.

548
00:29:11,881 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 3: My thoughts and I'm very strong on this and stem

549
00:29:15,081 --> 00:29:20,201
Speaker 3: from my time in homicide where mentals very specifically told

550
00:29:20,241 --> 00:29:22,761
Speaker 3: me when we get called to a case that you

551
00:29:22,881 --> 00:29:26,481
Speaker 3: treat it as suspicious until you can prove otherwise. That's

552
00:29:27,121 --> 00:29:30,041
Speaker 3: homicide one O one, and time and time again, I

553
00:29:30,081 --> 00:29:33,841
Speaker 3: see mistakes made because people make the wrong assumptions. We

554
00:29:33,921 --> 00:29:37,921
Speaker 3: get notified about death, treat it as a potential homicide

555
00:29:38,321 --> 00:29:42,401
Speaker 3: until you can prove otherwise. Now that's a safeguard. I

556
00:29:42,481 --> 00:29:48,041
Speaker 3: suggest missing persons should be the same thing. Common sense

557
00:29:48,081 --> 00:29:52,281
Speaker 3: comes into play but when it becomes subjective, lazy people

558
00:29:52,321 --> 00:29:55,081
Speaker 3: can make decisions. So I'm about to knock off on

559
00:29:55,121 --> 00:29:57,121
Speaker 3: the shift. I really don't want to take this report

560
00:29:57,121 --> 00:30:01,121
Speaker 3: at this time. Let's come back tomorrow. If the person

561
00:30:01,161 --> 00:30:04,321
Speaker 3: hasn't returned, maybe report that. Then I say this, and

562
00:30:04,521 --> 00:30:08,641
Speaker 3: I've said that very publicly, that there's this perception someone's

563
00:30:08,641 --> 00:30:11,521
Speaker 3: got to be missing before twenty four hours before police

564
00:30:11,521 --> 00:30:15,401
Speaker 3: can take a report. Bullshit. I can't make it anything

565
00:30:15,441 --> 00:30:19,961
Speaker 3: stronger than that. If for circumstances in what's reported there's concern,

566
00:30:20,521 --> 00:30:24,121
Speaker 3: you can drop everything and the priority could be given

567
00:30:24,161 --> 00:30:27,921
Speaker 3: to finding the person that's disappeared. So when you hear

568
00:30:27,921 --> 00:30:31,121
Speaker 3: the police talk about there's nothing suspicious, quite often you

569
00:30:31,241 --> 00:30:34,921
Speaker 3: hear that when there's been a situation where it's clearly

570
00:30:35,681 --> 00:30:39,121
Speaker 3: and i'm talking murder here, clearly a suicide, and they're

571
00:30:39,881 --> 00:30:42,361
Speaker 3: informing the public that there's nothing to worry about here.

572
00:30:42,361 --> 00:30:46,200
Speaker 3: We haven't got an offender on the loose. When a

573
00:30:46,281 --> 00:30:50,121
Speaker 3: missing person is reported, there going there's no suspicious circumstances

574
00:30:50,161 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 3: at this stage. I think a lot is lost that

575
00:30:54,041 --> 00:30:57,201
Speaker 3: we don't jump on those cases right from the start.

576
00:30:57,281 --> 00:31:00,881
Speaker 3: And I look at your mother's disappearance, that's just a

577
00:31:00,961 --> 00:31:03,881
Speaker 3: benchmark for what could be done wrong from the start.

578
00:31:04,161 --> 00:31:06,361
Speaker 3: There are so many quiries that could have been carried

579
00:31:06,361 --> 00:31:09,321
Speaker 3: out in the initial stages, and we probably wouldn't be

580
00:31:09,321 --> 00:31:13,641
Speaker 3: sitting here having this conversation. So I cautioned police too,

581
00:31:14,281 --> 00:31:17,801
Speaker 3: don't make assumptions you don't know. William Tyrrell is a

582
00:31:17,841 --> 00:31:22,961
Speaker 3: point in question. When he disappeared, it was thought that

583
00:31:23,001 --> 00:31:26,841
Speaker 3: William had wandered off. I think we're all now confidence

584
00:31:26,881 --> 00:31:30,801
Speaker 3: saying that there was human intervention in William's disappearance. But

585
00:31:30,921 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 3: for the first couple of hours or the first early period,

586
00:31:34,241 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 3: it was a little boy loss, which should be a priority.

587
00:31:37,161 --> 00:31:40,561
Speaker 3: But look where we are now, ten years down the track,

588
00:31:40,601 --> 00:31:44,521
Speaker 3: and that case still hasn't been solved. So I think

589
00:31:44,681 --> 00:31:49,161
Speaker 3: from your experience and from being on the other side,

590
00:31:49,241 --> 00:31:51,521
Speaker 3: and my experience as a police officer, and what I

591
00:31:51,601 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 3: learned from very experienced police officers, don't make assumptions and

592
00:31:55,441 --> 00:31:58,801
Speaker 3: treat things as suspicious until you can prove otherwise. And

593
00:31:58,841 --> 00:32:01,521
Speaker 3: that's just a safety net that if you operate that way,

594
00:32:01,961 --> 00:32:04,721
Speaker 3: problems like occurred with your mother don't occur.

595
00:32:05,241 --> 00:32:08,401
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's really good advice and I really

596
00:32:08,441 --> 00:32:11,201
Speaker 1: hope that being able to voice it.

597
00:32:11,201 --> 00:32:12,521
Speaker 2: It's not seen as a negative.

598
00:32:12,561 --> 00:32:15,401
Speaker 1: It's seen as something to work forward in this space

599
00:32:15,441 --> 00:32:18,361
Speaker 1: and help other people. And that goes for everybody, like

600
00:32:18,441 --> 00:32:23,321
Speaker 1: even family. Don't make assumptions. Don't assume until you know

601
00:32:23,481 --> 00:32:27,681
Speaker 1: facts because assuming Actually, my mum actually always used to say,

602
00:32:27,681 --> 00:32:29,681
Speaker 1: and I might finish off with saying that you know,

603
00:32:29,921 --> 00:32:31,761
Speaker 1: never assume, because it makes an ass out of you.

604
00:32:31,721 --> 00:32:35,161
Speaker 3: And me, I reckon that's a probably good good advice.

605
00:32:35,321 --> 00:32:38,041
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, thank you so much for your time. I'm

606
00:32:38,081 --> 00:32:40,121
Speaker 2: going to stop talking because I'm going to lose my voice.

607
00:32:40,161 --> 00:32:42,161
Speaker 3: Well, I just I just want to say it's a

608
00:32:42,161 --> 00:32:44,641
Speaker 3: privilege just sitting down having a chat with you. And

609
00:32:44,921 --> 00:32:47,081
Speaker 3: I'm mindful of the work that you've done and the

610
00:32:47,121 --> 00:32:49,841
Speaker 3: weight that you've carried trying to get justice for your mum,

611
00:32:49,841 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 3: and I hope all the success. And I can assure

612
00:32:53,521 --> 00:32:56,881
Speaker 3: you're inspiring people and you are making a difference. And

613
00:32:57,001 --> 00:32:59,841
Speaker 3: if you don't make a loud enough noise, people aren't

614
00:32:59,881 --> 00:33:02,641
Speaker 3: going to listen, and you've made them listen, and there's

615
00:33:02,721 --> 00:33:06,481
Speaker 3: been progress. Haven't got it to you wanted, but keep

616
00:33:06,561 --> 00:33:07,161
Speaker 3: up the good work.

617
00:33:07,641 --> 00:33:10,401
Speaker 2: Privilege, Thank you, and thank you for having me in

618
00:33:10,481 --> 00:33:11,161
Speaker 2: your space too.

619
00:33:11,601 --> 00:33:11,921
Speaker 3: Cheers,