WEBVTT - How Labor struck a deal on environment 0:00:01.320 --> 0:00:09.040 I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven am. Environmental 0:00:09.080 --> 0:00:11.480 law reform has been sitting in the two hard basket 0:00:11.520 --> 0:00:16.320 for years under successive government's assistem stayed broken. Now at 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:19.200 the end of the parliamentary year, Labour has passed the 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:23.239 first major changes in a generation. The government chose to 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.920 work with the Greens, agreeing to scrape logging exemptions, closed 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:32.760 colon gas loopholes and hand reinforcement powers to a new EPA. Meanwhile, 0:00:32.800 --> 0:00:37.480 the coalition fractured over the details, dealing themselves, added negotiations 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:42.080 and add of relevance. Today Press Gallery veterrian Paul bon 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:45.640 Jorno on how Labour landed a landmark deal and what 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:54.080 it means for the future of environmental policy. It's Saturday, 0:00:54.360 --> 0:01:00.560 November twenty nine. 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:04.560 I've been working pretty hard to convince the government that 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:07.640 we need to have more protections in this bill because 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:12.560 as it is, it actually is a step backwards and 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:16.640 rather than protecting our native forests protecting our climate, it's 0:01:16.680 --> 0:01:19.600 all about fast tracking projects. 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:20.480 Paul. 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:23.480 At the start of the week, Green's environment spokesperson Sarah 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:27.199 Hansey Young was saying that Labour's new environment laws were 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:31.399 actually a step backwards from what we already have. So 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:33.479 what's changed since then. 0:01:33.880 --> 0:01:39.320 What's changed since then is an enormous amount of twisting 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:45.040 Rgi Bajie and negotiation, which was informed in a very 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:48.960 big way by the realization from Alberonizi that it was 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:52.800 now or never in the sense that labor couldn't afford 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:56.720 another failure at trying to sort out a way forward 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:01.840 with environmental reform, which was long adue, and there was 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:06.720 a realization that all sides in this debate had pretty 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:11.080 well fixed positions, but surely they could come to some 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:14.120 sort of accommodation, and the only way to get that 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:19.400 accommodation was to have a deadline that had to be met. 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:23.359 It's been five years now since Professor Graham Samuel delivered 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:26.200 his blueprint for reform of these laws to Susan Lee 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:28.640 when she was the Environment Minister. It's how long this 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:31.120 has been going on. What he found was that our 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.560 environment laws are failing the environment, they're failing business, they're 0:02:34.560 --> 0:02:36.760 failing the community, and it's time we got this done. 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:39.919 It's really a question about whether it's with the Coalition 0:02:40.000 --> 0:02:41.560 or the Greens and Paul. 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.560 So the government didn't deal with the Greens. What was 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:46.760 it that the Greens got out of that deal. 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:49.960 Well, the Greens say that, and they put this at 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:51.840 the top of their list of what they got out 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:55.560 of it, and that was ending decades long exemptions for 0:02:55.560 --> 0:03:00.120 forestry destruction. Now the government wanted to phase out the 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:05.480 unrestricted logging in native forests over three years now a 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:10.040 more realistic timetable according to what was eighteen months, in 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:13.400 other words, halving the time. And the Greens agreed that 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:15.440 this was a hell of a lot better, so they 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:19.400 put that top of their list. Then removing the ability 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:23.600 for coal and gas projects to use fast track approvals. 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:27.040 There can still be new coalon gas projects, I mean 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.600 this is part of the compromise. But under the old system, 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:34.760 colon gas projects could be carved out they were so 0:03:35.520 --> 0:03:38.600 in the national interest that they didn't have to face 0:03:38.680 --> 0:03:42.840 the same scrutiny as other projects. Well, that fast track 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:47.840 has now gone. And then the powers to stop illegal 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:52.240 land clearing, that is, giving this new independent EPA the 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:57.920 ability to issue stop orders and to have heavy multimillion 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:03.000 dollar fines if these orders are ignored, and very importantly 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:06.920 saving the water Trigger. Now, the water trigger is a 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:12.080 federal law that evaluates new gas or coal projects for 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.360 the impact they have on the water table. Well, that 0:04:15.480 --> 0:04:20.080 water trigger has been saved, and it's federal law, overriding 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:24.000 anything states might agree to and ensuring that the federal 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:27.440 minister can always step in in other words, to save 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:31.120 the environment, giving the federal minister a specific role. So 0:04:31.200 --> 0:04:35.800 these are very significant concessions that the Greens won and 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.680 explain why they copped some of the other things that 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:39.960 they weren't so happy about. 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:44.279 And the government keeps saying that this is good for 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:47.120 business and good for the environment. What are the changes 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:50.160 that are meant to reassure business, especially around how quickly 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:52.240 decisions can now be made around the environment. 0:04:52.760 --> 0:04:54.720 Well, two things to say about that. The first thing 0:04:54.800 --> 0:04:58.680 is that business is disappointed that the coalition was unable 0:04:58.760 --> 0:05:03.680 to push for more in its regard. However, business was 0:05:03.720 --> 0:05:07.800 able to get access to Albernisi naturally and it had 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:12.760 what Alberanzi says was two key claims, and those claims 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:17.599 went to a streamlining of the assessment pathway so that 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:20.719 new projects, whether they be you know, mining as I 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:23.719 was saying before, or other things including things like for example, 0:05:24.000 --> 0:05:29.839 housing developments wouldn't spend literally years being assessed at the 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:33.760 state and federal level, So Alberanizi said, we've met that 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:39.039 concern from business. The other thing too was the overlap 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:44.200 between the states and the federal government in assessing projects. 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.960 That with the agreement of the states, new projects will 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.640 only have to face one scrutiny, but the scrutinis will 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.760 be in harmony. In other words, state and federal laws 0:05:54.839 --> 0:05:58.719 and regulations will be in harmony. And the other point 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:03.240 too was what they call regional planning or no go zones. 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:06.479 It'll be pretty clear. For example, say someone wants a 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:08.359 project to mine on the barrier if I mean, this 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:11.679 is a silly example, but it just makes the point. Well, 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.159 already the regulations will say sorry, don't even bother to 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:18.880 put in an application, So that would save years to 0:06:18.960 --> 0:06:22.680 come up with the same rejection. So business did get 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:29.279 these what Alberanzi described as core concessions. They maybe wanted more, 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:32.960 but the Greens insisted and the government agreed in the 0:06:33.080 --> 0:06:37.920 end that anyone who breaks these new environmental laws should 0:06:37.960 --> 0:06:42.479 suffer substantial fines, and those substantial finds are now in 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:42.920 the law. 0:06:44.240 --> 0:06:46.920 We know the Greens got very close to a deal 0:06:46.920 --> 0:06:50.839 with Dania Plitisek last term. They've now reached one with 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:54.320 Murray Watt. So how different are the deals. 0:06:54.760 --> 0:06:57.920 That's a very good question and I look pretty closely 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:01.560 at it and there are what you'd say minor differences 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:06.479 and tweaking the EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency and the 0:07:06.600 --> 0:07:11.360 role it would play under the Plibusec Greens agreement. Well, 0:07:11.440 --> 0:07:15.080 it put the wind up the miners, particularly in WA, 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:19.600 and I would say the critical difference was timing that 0:07:19.720 --> 0:07:23.560 agreement was ahead of the West Australian state election and 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:27.400 not all that far ahead of the looming federal election, 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:30.880 and Albanesi, true to form, didn't want to scare the 0:07:30.920 --> 0:07:34.800 horses if he could avoid it. The other difference, I 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:39.800 think was that Albanesi, with what was able to set 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:45.400 up a better way of approaching negotiations and consultation. And 0:07:45.440 --> 0:07:48.360 it's to be noted that what he actually set up 0:07:48.360 --> 0:07:54.440 a core group of advisors which encompassed business conservation groups, 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:59.000 environment groups and state leaders and he beat a path 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:02.520 to Western Australia in many ways what ran what he 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:06.040 was doing past the West Australian Premier Cook on about 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:09.520 six occasions. So this was keeping as many people in 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:13.560 the tent as possible, even against a tight deadline, to 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:16.640 make sure that while people might have had quibbles, they 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:20.120 might have had concerns, none of these concerns would be 0:08:20.240 --> 0:08:23.800 big enough to sink the whole project. 0:08:26.440 --> 0:08:29.800 Coming up. While the Greens copped the deal, they say 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:43.200 is still short of what the climate needs. Paul, the 0:08:43.240 --> 0:08:46.320 government had been talking to both the Coalition and the 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:49.000 Greens to get the numbers to pass this through the Senate. 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.000 Ultimately they went with the Greens in the end, but 0:08:52.040 --> 0:08:54.520 there was a point where things could have gone either way. 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:58.480 How would you describe the coalition's negotiating position, what was 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:02.240 going on inside the opposite during talks around this legislation. 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:08.120 They simply have no way of resolving conflicts in a 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:13.720 way that accommodates more moderate positions, more accommodating positions, if 0:09:13.760 --> 0:09:17.880 you like, than hard line positions. So it was clear 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:21.679 that even though Susan Lee was the Environment Minister at 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:25.360 the time that asked Graham Samuel to review what she 0:09:25.600 --> 0:09:31.160 saw clearly were broken laws, this time, to keep not 0:09:31.240 --> 0:09:34.880 only her leadership but to keep the coalition together, she 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:38.960 had to cave all the time to the Nationals and 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:43.160 to the hard line right wingers in the Liberal Party. 0:09:43.679 --> 0:09:47.240 Susan Lee says, you have not done a good job negotiating. Sorry, 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:49.160 that's the second time I've been asked that on air today, 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:51.720 and both times I've laughed. I mean, I don't think 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:55.520 anyone takes criticism from Susan Lee seriously about how she 0:09:55.559 --> 0:09:58.200 conducts or how people should conduct their affairs. 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:01.720 Murray, what out of stration earlier in the week, pointed 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:04.040 out that he didn't know who he was dealing with 0:10:04.080 --> 0:10:08.199 half the time. Shambles is probably too kind a word 0:10:08.360 --> 0:10:08.880 to use. 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:11.280 You know, each time I have a meeting with each 0:10:11.320 --> 0:10:13.360 of these people, they say they've got their final list 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:15.560 of demands and meet with someone else and they've got 0:10:15.600 --> 0:10:19.520 other demands. So but you know, we worked through that 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:22.160 and as I say, we've engaged in good faith with 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:23.640 both the coalition and the Greens. 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:27.640 Now, Anthony Alberanizi even said after the deal with the 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:31.000 Greens came through that they were still trying to negotiate 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:36.240 with the opposition. As late as Wednesday, Albernizi said he 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:38.840 put out an invitation to meet with Lee and she 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:41.880 didn't take it up. Now, she denies that she got 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:45.360 any any such invitation but the point was, I think 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:48.840 that there was a lot of nervousness on all sides here, 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:53.400 and the government maintains that it wanted to keep negotiating 0:10:53.520 --> 0:10:56.400 if it could with the opposition in case the deal 0:10:56.440 --> 0:10:57.680 with the Greens fell over. 0:10:58.640 --> 0:11:02.000 Okay, So the government decided to go with the Greens, 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:04.400 and the Greens actually managed to forget some winds on 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:07.600 forestry and on ensuring that the Environment Minister can always 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:11.520 step in on decisions. But it's much less than they 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:14.840 wanted and what they were asking for. So why do 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:16.680 you think the Green said yes, Paul. 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:19.960 I think the realization was there, and this is part 0:11:20.000 --> 0:11:25.320 of the genius of Albanese was that before this term 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:29.000 of parliament was up, there would be reforms, much needed 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:33.120 reforms to the EPBC Act, and that this was their 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:37.240 best chance to influence the Act in a way that 0:11:37.600 --> 0:11:42.840 would be more satisfactory to the environment and to their constituency, which, 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:46.360 by the way, the Greens constituency isn't only if you 0:11:46.559 --> 0:11:50.760 like Green voters, but it's teal voters and it's a 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:56.679 substantial number of new labor MPs from the left. 0:11:57.360 --> 0:11:59.520 And so in the wake of all this, and on Thursday, 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.880 the Climate change Minster. Chris Bowen revealed that Australia is 0:12:02.880 --> 0:12:06.880 projected to badly miss his twenty thirty five admissions targets. 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:11.120 So how has the government defended that sage news. 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:15.120 Yeah, well the government itself announced it, which it actually 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:19.520 has to come clean under legislation, and it was Bowen's 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:21.520 own department that made this assessment. 0:12:21.880 --> 0:12:25.320 The emissions projection show that additional work will be needed 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.280 to get to the twenty thirty five target. The twenty 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.520 thirty five target is ambitious and achievable, but it is 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:33.000 not yet being achieved. 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:36.840 So they'll come within a cat's whisker of making the 0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:39.920 target for twenty thirty and miss it by a country 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:44.360 mile for twenty thirty five. The Coalition jumped on this 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:47.560 and said, well, this just shows we've got targets that 0:12:47.600 --> 0:12:50.360 we're never going to reach and in trying to do so, 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:53.000 we're just going to push up the price of energy. 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:57.040 Whereas what Bowen says is it shows that we need 0:12:57.160 --> 0:13:00.880 to try harder and to do more, and he counters 0:13:00.920 --> 0:13:05.600 the energy cost argument saying we do know that if 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:09.719 we get the transition to renewables faster, even though the 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:14.440 short term cost may be higher, the end result will 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:18.280 be much more affordable and indeed dependable energy. 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.600 So whether it's harnessing free solo or encouraging more people 0:13:22.200 --> 0:13:24.319 to be part of the energy market with their batteries, 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.840 bill stay lower for everyone and our gried becomes fairer, 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.440 all while doing our bit for the planet. 0:13:32.960 --> 0:13:35.200 That's an argument that's going to play out right up 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.680 until the next election and beyond. There is no doubt 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:40.560 and this is the view of the CSI or and 0:13:40.600 --> 0:13:45.360 others that these targets can be met technically. It's the 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.160 political will and the ability to do the sorts of 0:13:49.200 --> 0:13:52.320 things that will achieve them. And one little point I 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:54.880 note that the Shadow treasure a Ted O'Brien was at 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.960 the National Press Club this week and he was getting 0:13:58.080 --> 0:14:01.280 stuck into the government over spend and he was asked 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:03.480 in an interview, will give us an example of the 0:14:03.520 --> 0:14:06.960 sort of spending cuts you'd bring in and he said, oh, 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.560 tax concessions for electric vehicles would be wiped. 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.240 Let me give you one example of what I think 0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:16.560 is a really poor budget measure, and that is a 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:22.400 fringe benefits tax carve out for electric vehicles under they 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.600 planned today, which is costing them thirteen times more than 0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:27.400 what they had done. 0:14:27.440 --> 0:14:29.840 So that gives you a bit of an inkling into 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:34.600 the attitude of the coalition that any serious attempt to 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:39.800 bring emissions down by using tax concessions and other incentives 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:43.320 would be ditched. So any hope if there's a change 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:46.520 of government of getting anywhere near the sort of targets 0:14:46.720 --> 0:14:50.400 that the science demands would literally go up in smoke. 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:54.080 Now, a lot of pundits ruled out this reform getting 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:56.680 through by the end of the year, but Murray Watt 0:14:56.680 --> 0:15:00.360 has ultimately defied the odds and made it happen just 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:02.800 at the end of the parliamentary sitting year. How big 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:04.360 a win is this for the government? 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:06.640 Well, look, I've got to say it's a very big 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:09.000 win for the government, but I also have to say 0:15:09.000 --> 0:15:12.480 it's a very big win for the environment. The fact 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:16.640 that this message was able to drive the politics is 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:22.000 well heartening. Frankly, I think it shows that those critics 0:15:22.000 --> 0:15:25.320 of Albanesi for not being ambitious enough maybe will be 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:28.400 given pause for thought that you don't have to be 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:31.880 as flamboyant and as brilliant as a Gough Whitlam to 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:36.400 achieve significant reform, because make no mistake Daniel, this is 0:15:36.440 --> 0:15:40.280 the most significant environment reform we've seen in more than 0:15:40.320 --> 0:15:41.080 thirty years. 0:15:42.720 --> 0:15:44.920 Paul, always a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you for 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:45.360 your time. 0:15:45.800 --> 0:15:52.000 Thank you, Daniel. Bie. 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.360 Seven AM as a daily show from Solstice Media. It's 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:04.120 made by Addik Basto, Ariel Richards, Chris Dgate, Ruby Jones, 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:10.520 Sarah McPhee, Travis Evans, Zultanfacho and me Daniel James. Our 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:13.160 theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:17.240 Envelope Bordio. Thanks for listening, Have a great weekend.