Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life. The average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. This is
Speaker 1: going to be a lot of fun. Or I think
Speaker 1: it's going to be a lot of fun.
Speaker 2: Today.
Speaker 1: As a Christmas special, our producer has come up with
Speaker 1: an idea, how about we let someone else host I
Speaker 1: Catch Killers. So we had a choice of people, and
Speaker 1: the person that we've picked is Andrew Hamilton. You might
Speaker 1: know that name. It's a former guest on I Catch Killers.
Speaker 1: Stand up comedian that did a bit of time in
Speaker 1: prison for selling mushrooms of all things. He's a funny guy.
Speaker 1: I've got a lot of time for him, and I'm
Speaker 1: handing over the reins of I Catch Killers to Andrew Hamilton.
Speaker 1: I don't know how this is going to go, but
Speaker 1: he's got a list of questions from listeners that have
Speaker 1: sent in and he's got the floor. I'm nervous, and
Speaker 1: I'll explain why I'm nervous, because I've got here in
Speaker 1: the studio with me Andrew Hamilton, former guest on I
Speaker 1: Catch Killers. You might recall a stand up comedian happened
Speaker 1: to do a little bit of time in jail for
Speaker 1: an issue over mushrooms, something along those lines. Our producer
Speaker 1: on I Catch Killers decide that it's been a hard year,
Speaker 1: a long year, and we get a lot of listeners
Speaker 1: say they've got questions that they'd like to put to me.
Speaker 1: And Emily came up with the idea, why don't we
Speaker 1: get Andrew Hamilton back and you can hand over the
Speaker 1: reins to him to run EYE Catch Killers and he
Speaker 1: can ask you the questions. And I'm the guest, so
Speaker 1: Andrew be kind please.
Speaker 3: The hunter has become the Hunter, Gary, it's great to
Speaker 3: be here. Thank you very much for inviting me on.
Speaker 3: I had a lot of time, a lot of fun
Speaker 3: when you invited me on as a guest. I still
Speaker 3: have people messaging me now that listen to that podcast,
Speaker 3: And you know, I think one of my favorite things
Speaker 3: from that was I was talking about my time in
Speaker 3: jail and my time as a drug dealer, and you
Speaker 3: were laughing at some of it, but then you kept
Speaker 3: having a break and be like, just to remind everyone
Speaker 3: what he was doing was illegal.
Speaker 1: Don't try this at home type situation. Yeah, So that
Speaker 1: was the best.
Speaker 2: So it was great to be back.
Speaker 3: I guess I wanted to start by asking you because
Speaker 3: I as a comedian, I have people all the time
Speaker 3: that come up to me and want to tell me
Speaker 3: their favorite of my jokes and ask me questions about comedy.
Speaker 3: But when you're out in public, must be mostly people
Speaker 3: coming up to want to talk about homicide.
Speaker 1: You being a cop, yeah, generally speaking, pretty.
Speaker 2: Grim to constantly be talking about.
Speaker 1: It's heavy, But I spent a long time as a
Speaker 1: homicide cop and even hanging out with the victims families,
Speaker 1: and that you've got to find some light in that
Speaker 1: darkness because it is a dark world, Like you can't
Speaker 1: what's your job? My day would start when someone has
Speaker 1: been murdered. You're looking at the body. So it's a heavy,
Speaker 1: heavy topic, but people are interested in it. But you
Speaker 1: can talk about it with a respectful way. And I
Speaker 1: always preface when I'm talking about homicide. It's all right
Speaker 1: to find some light in the pain because it is pain.
Speaker 1: That's what what's homicide's about. But yeah, people do have
Speaker 1: a fascination about it. It's better than someone coming up
Speaker 1: and saying you're a cop. I've got a speeding ticket
Speaker 1: the other day, or talking like that. I can't do
Speaker 1: those conversations. Rather talk about a homicide than petty side.
Speaker 1: Yeah I got a ticket when I was only going
Speaker 1: you know, five k's over. I don't want to hear
Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, I've got my own problems with the tickets.
Speaker 3: Well, one of my biggest pet beaves with the law
Speaker 3: right now is when they as signs that say you
Speaker 3: can't eat in this smoking area.
Speaker 2: That they have at pumps.
Speaker 3: Well, there there must be the kind of gripes of
Speaker 3: people talk to you about you know this is not
Speaker 3: really my area.
Speaker 1: Well, exactly right, You're a placement. Can you sort that out?
Speaker 2: Well?
Speaker 1: Are you intending to eat the meal there?
Speaker 2: Or?
Speaker 1: I know it's funny. I like rules because this sounds weird.
Speaker 1: I like rules because it keeps society in line. But
Speaker 1: I only like the rules I like, and I push
Speaker 1: back against authority sometimes of the rules. I think they're ridiculous.
Speaker 1: So I'm not just talking smoking their COVID Dare I
Speaker 1: talk that word? That frustrated hell out of me when
Speaker 1: we're going through that for a couple of years. And
Speaker 1: then the people making the big calls were the ones
Speaker 1: in power, and power corrupts and some of the decisions
Speaker 1: that were made with COVID just I just I wanted
Speaker 1: to protest. I wanted to march down the street.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, there were people that you know, lost their jobs
Speaker 3: that were cops because they refused to get vaccinated. And
Speaker 3: I think, yeah, the whole thing was a mess.
Speaker 1: It was a mess, and whether I saw, but it
Speaker 1: was that that power, and i'd see the politicians. You know,
Speaker 1: we used to get the eleven AM briefing and what
Speaker 1: we're allowed to do. I called it the head master
Speaker 1: is going to speak to us, or the head mistress
Speaker 1: is going to speak to us, it felt like I
Speaker 1: was back at school.
Speaker 3: A lot of people do get into the job in
Speaker 3: blue because they are massive sticklers for the rules. Though,
Speaker 3: I think I when I first got out of jail
Speaker 3: and I was under house arrest, I was dating a
Speaker 3: girl who is a corrections officer and we were hitting
Speaker 3: it off and for a couple of months before she
Speaker 3: realized that I was in an ico and so she
Speaker 3: was like, oh, and I'll lose my job if we
Speaker 3: continue this, right, And I was like, come along, like
Speaker 3: you know firstly who no one needs to know. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but yeah, massive stickler for the rules.
Speaker 2: Well that all fizzled out as quickly as it started,
Speaker 2: as that was a lost love. Yeah, I don't know
Speaker 2: you want to talk about, but it was.
Speaker 3: I was just like that was what I was showed
Speaker 3: me Like, Yeah, people that can get involved in either
Speaker 3: being cops or corrections officers usually like.
Speaker 2: They love a rule and they'll stick to it.
Speaker 3: I had a rule when I was in quarantine at
Speaker 3: Parkley Prison. They only let you out of your cells
Speaker 3: for half an hour a day to make phone calls
Speaker 3: and to get some fresh air, but they and you
Speaker 3: would interact with other inmates in the quarantine wing, but
Speaker 3: all the inmates were all the different stages of the quarantine.
Speaker 2: So I was on day two.
Speaker 3: There were guys on day thirteen, and I try to
Speaker 3: point out to the guards that that defeated the entire
Speaker 3: purpose of quarantine, because if I'm coming in with COVID
Speaker 3: and I'm day two and giving it to a guy
Speaker 3: on day fourteen, he's better to go into a gen pop,
Speaker 3: you know, into the main yard.
Speaker 1: But you're trying to introduce logic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I was.
Speaker 3: That was one of my first lessons of being a
Speaker 3: boy in green, trying to tell the boys in blue
Speaker 3: how to do their job.
Speaker 2: And they were like no, They just were like, you're
Speaker 2: an idiot, shut up.
Speaker 1: Well probably, yeah, excuse me.
Speaker 3: But then Parkley Prison had one of the biggest COVID
Speaker 3: outbreaks in the whole and every any prison of the country.
Speaker 1: So what are we saying here? They should have listened
Speaker 1: to it and.
Speaker 2: Told you so. Well.
Speaker 3: I did write a letter to the governor trying to
Speaker 3: like point out these flaws that I saw in the
Speaker 3: whole COVID system, and then I got moved to Long
Speaker 3: Bay jailson after.
Speaker 1: So I wasn't I'm sure You're probably the first prisoner
Speaker 1: that's ever complained about rules within the prison.
Speaker 3: I said something to I was like, dear Governor, I
Speaker 3: just wanted to point out some errors in this bureaucratic
Speaker 3: labyrinth here.
Speaker 1: Good word, use of the word.
Speaker 3: I remember reading an article about like you saying why
Speaker 3: you got into the police force, And I think you know,
Speaker 3: when you were a kid you got into I got
Speaker 3: up to no good and that you know, you were
Speaker 3: in with the wrong crowd, and you saw this moment
Speaker 3: of a guy on the run being chased by cops
Speaker 3: and you thought that looked pretty cool, and you were like, oh,
Speaker 3: I wouldn't mind doing that and being involved in kind
Speaker 3: of good verse evil.
Speaker 1: It seemed that simple to me. And I've got to
Speaker 1: say I didn't join for any noble reasons to make
Speaker 1: society a better place or any of that. I was
Speaker 1: working on the building side. I've been in a ceiling
Speaker 1: all day as an electrician. It was hot, that was
Speaker 1: all the inter war was up there. I was itchy.
Speaker 1: I was dirty and out there and just seeing two
Speaker 1: cops chasing the bad guy up the road, and I thought, yeah,
Speaker 1: that looks like fun.
Speaker 3: See some of us probably see that same scenario and
Speaker 3: look at the cream and go. That looks like fun.
Speaker 3: Run on the rut.
Speaker 1: I took the numbers. There was two cops one month.
Speaker 1: Crook went with the odds.
Speaker 2: But I think you're totally right.
Speaker 3: Where would you watch police movies, It's usually the cop
Speaker 3: has some glorious backstory about the reason I got into
Speaker 3: the forces because their dad got shot at liquor store
Speaker 3: or something, and they always wanted to catch the back guys.
Speaker 3: But the reality, I think is much simpler than that,
Speaker 3: is just someone needed a job, or they got into
Speaker 3: it because their family were already doing it or something
Speaker 3: like that.
Speaker 1: The ones I think, and this is a generalization, one
Speaker 1: that thinks I'm joining the change the world or make
Speaker 1: the world a better place. I think there's a burnout
Speaker 1: the shelf life in that I learned that. I think
Speaker 1: I became that towards the end of my career, in
Speaker 1: that I saw what crime would create and the pain
Speaker 1: and the suffering from that. So yeah, I bought into that.
Speaker 1: But again generalizing any cops that I look up to,
Speaker 1: people that I respect, I don't know any of them
Speaker 1: that have joined specifically to make the world a better place.
Speaker 1: This looks like a cool job. Let's do that and
Speaker 1: see how that goes.
Speaker 3: It's probably the first few years when you join the
Speaker 3: police force. You don't even guest says to that because
Speaker 3: you've been given them what the shit kicker jobs.
Speaker 1: And it's so confusing. You go out there and domestic
Speaker 1: domestic situations. You're twenty two, twenty three, you've know nothing
Speaker 1: about life. They put a uniform on, you give you
Speaker 1: a gun, and then you're knocking on the door and
Speaker 1: there's a forty year old man arguing with his wife
Speaker 1: and the kids are there, and you're trying to tell
Speaker 1: this person how to behave themselves in their own own house.
Speaker 1: You do get thrown in the deep end that I
Speaker 1: started your old stamping ground. I'm still following up some
Speaker 1: unsolved crime hornsby the Pacific Highway. Yeah, the grid loot
Speaker 1: before the F three and all that. I'm wearing a uniform,
Speaker 1: and normally, if there's a break in the traffic, you
Speaker 1: run across the road. I didn't realize the power of
Speaker 1: the uniform because I did that like I normally would.
Speaker 1: There was a break in the traffic, run across the road,
Speaker 1: and all these cars slammed on their brakes, because there's
Speaker 1: a uniform officer on the highway. I'm just trying to
Speaker 1: cross away from the cross science. But yeah, it's an
Speaker 1: interesting experience. But I feel for people because you do
Speaker 1: get prone in the deep end.
Speaker 2: Does it give you a bit of an ego when
Speaker 2: you realize the power of the uniform?
Speaker 1: It can, But if you take the right look at it,
Speaker 1: it's also a little bit scared.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think that there's so many instances of over policing.
Speaker 3: And I'm not a big fan of like a million
Speaker 3: sniffer dogs at New Guney station picking up guys with
Speaker 3: ten dollars a weed. But I think everyone's on their
Speaker 3: side when it comes to sovereign citizens these.
Speaker 2: I'm always on.
Speaker 3: The side of the cops when these people are saying
Speaker 3: that they don't have to obey the law because they
Speaker 3: don't they haven't signed a contract with the government and
Speaker 3: all this kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: Mate, I know they are real try hards, aren't they,
Speaker 1: And they would be so frustrating and annoying. Where do
Speaker 1: you even start with that?
Speaker 2: No one has sympathy with the sovereign citizens.
Speaker 1: Okay, we're voting there now, all.
Speaker 3: Right, let's get through some of these questions. We've got
Speaker 3: a lot of ones that people have sent through on Instagram.
Speaker 2: What's the craziest story that you've ever had while policing.
Speaker 1: Where do you start with that look. Policing you get
Speaker 1: in situations that you'd never expect to expect to be in.
Speaker 1: I was kicked off a plane to Pakistan one time,
Speaker 1: and that was doing escort duty, taking a prisoner back
Speaker 1: to Pakistan on a commercial flight. I was with my
Speaker 1: work partner, Jason Evers, and we're excited, like, this trip's
Speaker 1: come up. We're going to take this prisoner back to
Speaker 1: Pakistan and then we get to spend three or four
Speaker 1: days overseas and enjoy yourself.
Speaker 3: The cops put their hand up for those kind of
Speaker 3: jobs because that sounds three holiday.
Speaker 1: It was. It was back back in the day. It
Speaker 1: was something that if you got in they and they'd
Speaker 1: hire the cops because you had you knew how to
Speaker 1: control people and the different different powers. So basically, until
Speaker 1: the plane takes off, you haven't got a lot of authority,
Speaker 1: but in the air you're there, you're escorting the escorting
Speaker 1: the prisoner. We walked out of the homicide office and
Speaker 1: laughing at our mates and friends in the office, going
Speaker 1: we're off to Pakistan tonight and we're going to have
Speaker 1: a great time blah blah blah, and then we're going here,
Speaker 1: going there. I had the whole holiday planned work trip.
Speaker 1: The prisoner's handed over to us at the airport. We
Speaker 1: get on the plane. We're down the back of the plane,
Speaker 1: three seats. We put the prisoner near the window suit.
Speaker 1: I'm seeing the middle suait. Jason's on the right hand side.
Speaker 1: Jason's looking at what movies are on for the flight,
Speaker 1: because it's going to be a long flight, and the
Speaker 1: prisoner's tapping his leg just and getting agitated, getting agitated
Speaker 1: like that, and I've gone, this is this is not
Speaker 1: good because previously prisoners had gone to the bathroom and
Speaker 1: smashed the toilets up before the flight takes off, so
Speaker 1: therefore they can't get can't get de ported. So I'm
Speaker 1: talking to this prisoner beside me and going you're right,
Speaker 1: and he's gone, I'm going to get a toilet, And
Speaker 1: I said, you're not going to the toilet, and he's
Speaker 1: basically said, well, I'm going to piss myself. I'm going
Speaker 1: to do this, and carrying on. Got to the point
Speaker 1: all the passengers are getting on. I've said to Jason,
Speaker 1: we've got a problem here. Will take him, take him
Speaker 1: down to the toilet, and we won't let him lock
Speaker 1: himself in because that's when they smash it up and
Speaker 1: then the plane can't take off. We're down the back
Speaker 1: of the plane and this is how it's basically going.
Speaker 1: I've got the toilet door open. He's yelling out, I'm
Speaker 1: not a terrorist. I'm a human bean. At the top
Speaker 1: of his voice.
Speaker 2: If you could.
Speaker 1: Picture the whole of the plane turning up and looking
Speaker 1: and I'm going settle down, settle down. He started swearing,
Speaker 1: and Jason's doing his best standing in front of us,
Speaker 1: going nothing to see here is just afraid of flying.
Speaker 1: And this person's screaming out, I'm not a terrorist, I'm
Speaker 1: a human bean. I knew I'd lost the battle. And
Speaker 1: he's struggling, so we're fighting. I'm bouncing in and bouncing
Speaker 1: out and coming back in and trying to restrain him.
Speaker 1: And then he starts swearing, and I knew I'd lost
Speaker 1: the battle. At this point in time, I said, could
Speaker 1: you please not swear? There's women and children on the plane,
Speaker 1: and then the k pilot comes down is there a
Speaker 1: problem here. No, we got kicked off the plane that's
Speaker 1: pretty lonely placed at Sydney Airport at ten o'clock at
Speaker 1: night when you're waiting for your bags to come out.
Speaker 3: I mean, how he's supposed to get this guy to
Speaker 3: point B if he's going.
Speaker 1: To well this is like quite a few trips. I
Speaker 1: did one to to Paris and it was with my
Speaker 1: partner Pam Young, who I've seen at the time, So
Speaker 1: it was a great trip. Do you want to go
Speaker 1: to Paris for the weekend? Yeah, great, we'll go to Paris.
Speaker 1: And this French national had arrived at the airport and
Speaker 1: turned it on with customs or the federal police, and
Speaker 1: so he was going to be the poor that wasn't
Speaker 1: allowed into the country. They contact us Friday morning. You
Speaker 1: right to go to Paris this weekend? Yeah, okay, we'll
Speaker 1: do that. I'd been up on a murder investigation for
Speaker 1: hadn't slept for a couple of days. Pick him up
Speaker 1: at the airport. We get on the plane and he
Speaker 1: misbehaved the whole time. There was a stopover at Singapore.
Speaker 1: Pam had to get off with the passports. We've got
Speaker 1: no real power. Once we're in Singapore. It's a little
Speaker 1: bit of bluff and get off the plane. And then
Speaker 1: he's running around the plane for about two hours. I'm
Speaker 1: chasing him. He's only a little fellow, which was lucky.
Speaker 1: I'm holding him. Didn't sleep, satchels of sugar, he just
Speaker 1: kept drinking, like just eating, and it was just wide.
Speaker 1: I remember he had a Digiti do with him that
Speaker 1: was part of his property, which is quite strange. We
Speaker 1: got the Heathrow Airport. We hadn't slept now for twenty
Speaker 1: four hours because he misbehaved the whole time. And at
Speaker 1: Heathrow Airport, I'm pointing, pointing, because he couldn't speak English,
Speaker 1: pointing to the police walking around with their weapons, and
Speaker 1: I'm pointing to them and going, you misbehave you this
Speaker 1: is what happens. And I've got his passport and I'm
Speaker 1: pretending to rip it up in our broken English. He said,
Speaker 1: if I take him to the smoking you know the
Speaker 1: little fish tank smoking bays I had. I had to
Speaker 1: sit in the smoking bay with him for two hours.
Speaker 1: I didn't smoke. He's sitting there and smoking. Then we
Speaker 1: got him on the plane and got him.
Speaker 3: He said, if you took him there he'll behave.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he'll behave. So that was a fair compromise. But
Speaker 1: you get experience experiences like that, and like I've had
Speaker 1: a lot of homicide experiences. I also sung Happy Birthday
Speaker 1: to John Howard when he was Prime Minister because I
Speaker 1: was looking after him and I had to put in
Speaker 1: two dollars for his birthday cake. And there was only
Speaker 1: about five of Cinny's office singing Happy Birthday to the
Speaker 1: Prime minister. You don't expect to get experiences that. I
Speaker 1: don't know tide us. No, Actually I'm not the political
Speaker 1: leaning one way or the other. But I looked after
Speaker 1: him a bit and he was quite a nice man.
Speaker 1: But yeah, he's tied us. He made a chip in
Speaker 1: for his birthday cake or his staff.
Speaker 2: Surely that's getting written off somewhere. Well, how do you
Speaker 2: explain that expense that one? Yeah, who's the dumbest crook
Speaker 2: you've ever had to deal with.
Speaker 1: Actually, some in their dumbness are at quite smart because
Speaker 1: sometimes I come up with a real intricate interview plan
Speaker 1: or operation that Okay, we're going to do this, then
Speaker 1: that person will react that way, we'll catch him. There.
Speaker 1: Really complex plans have the briefing, got the whiteboard, do
Speaker 1: the whole thing, interview plan. I'm going to nail this person.
Speaker 1: When we get in the interview room and you go
Speaker 1: were you there? No, Well you show him exhibit. He's
Speaker 1: a fado of you actually arriving there, your fingerprint from
Speaker 1: being at the location. You just nail him on every
Speaker 1: single point. And have you done it? No, because he's agreen.
Speaker 1: Do you agree there your fingerprints? Yep? Do you agree
Speaker 1: that's a faith of you?
Speaker 2: Yes?
Speaker 1: Do you agree that's at the premises where the person
Speaker 1: was killed? Yes, you lay it all out and so
Speaker 1: you think, okay, the obvious next place one.
Speaker 2: Why did you do it?
Speaker 1: I didn't? Yeah, So they outsmart your. First time I
Speaker 1: arrested the prison escape from prison, I thought there'd be
Speaker 1: a dramatic like you see on TV and guns drawn,
Speaker 1: a heavy situation, which sometimes they are with escapees. But
Speaker 1: this boat, I've saw the come around the corner and
Speaker 1: he's just standing there. I said, should you be in prison?
Speaker 1: And he looked down embarrassed and said, yes.
Speaker 3: See they're not all John Killick escaping in helicopter.
Speaker 1: So I would like to burn on that case. And
Speaker 1: I know he's a made of yours and the maide
Speaker 1: of mine being a helicopter that shouldn't have worked, but
Speaker 1: at work, it's just unbelievable.
Speaker 2: It sounds like something from a movie.
Speaker 1: And even the Russian girlfriend and the hijacking the helicopter,
Speaker 1: it was perfect.
Speaker 3: But yes, the most common cases, I think there would
Speaker 3: be ones where it's someone just breaks out of somewhere
Speaker 3: and then they caught within an hour or two.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the thing. So you go in the
Speaker 1: You've got to laugh at some summer situations. Sometimes the
Speaker 1: crooks can laugh at the situation they find themselves in.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I keep an open mind. But there's a
Speaker 1: lot of different stuff in terms of dramatic things that
Speaker 1: I've been involved in. We were doing there was a
Speaker 1: drug plantation. It was only International Park and out near
Speaker 1: Wiseman's Ferry and myself I was running the operation. There
Speaker 1: was two other cops. We've gone out there and this
Speaker 1: blake had some attack dogs like big and shepherds or
Speaker 1: rot wheels or whatever around the plantation. We had to
Speaker 1: catch him at the location because it was on the
Speaker 1: National park ere it wasn't on his property. So we're
Speaker 1: sitting sitting there watching watching the movements, and you know,
Speaker 1: we parked the police car five kilometers away and crept
Speaker 1: in through the bush and we're watching and we've split up,
Speaker 1: and I'm with my one offs either and I had
Speaker 1: this younger detective keeping an eye on the premises and
Speaker 1: I'm sitting there. I won't mention his name, but Paul
Speaker 1: was the blake I was paired up with. And we're
Speaker 1: sitting there. All of a sudden, we hear this just
Speaker 1: growling and then yeah, just dogs sprinting for us. This
Speaker 1: is a COVID operation, so we couldn't scream like we
Speaker 1: wanted to scream. And we take off and we're sprinting,
Speaker 1: and I still remember it at the time, stood still.
Speaker 1: We couldn't pull out guns because we're trying to keep
Speaker 1: it quiet. We couldn't scream, even though it was scared,
Speaker 1: and we're running, so what is it. It's a muffled
Speaker 1: We're running, running through the bush. And then we get
Speaker 1: to this cliff and we've got nowhere to go, and
Speaker 1: these dogs are going to they're going to go us.
Speaker 1: And Paul and I looked at each other and we
Speaker 1: picked up two lumps of wood and we've just come
Speaker 1: at the dogs without screaming, and they're shit, these dudes
Speaker 1: are serious, and then run off. We see there. Shit
Speaker 1: that was close. That was so close. And then I
Speaker 1: hear three or four gun shots and I hear my
Speaker 1: name being called out, Gary, I've been shot, and Paul
Speaker 1: and I have looked at it, and then we've run
Speaker 1: in the direction of where the shots come and we're
Speaker 1: sprinting back to there, and my mate, he had come
Speaker 1: around the corner of the bush. We're sprinting and he's
Speaker 1: just covered in blood and he's just Gary and then
Speaker 1: collapsed and I thought, shit, what's happened here? What happened?
Speaker 1: The two dogs attacked him and he was wrestling on
Speaker 1: the ground and they're really going at him, and he's
Speaker 1: trying to get his gun out and he's got one
Speaker 1: trying to keep the dog off his face, and he
Speaker 1: shot it and shot sort of half his half, his
Speaker 1: hand off.
Speaker 2: But through the dog as well.
Speaker 1: Got the dog ran off like the dogs took off.
Speaker 1: So we're left there with our injured colleague and we're
Speaker 1: cars five kilometers away. We've got no communications. We've got
Speaker 1: portable radios, but this is before mobile phones, and so
Speaker 1: we've looked for a house and we're carrying. I've taken
Speaker 1: my shirt off, we've bandied him up, and we're looking
Speaker 1: for a house. Going through the bush. We found this
Speaker 1: house and you can't make this shit up. There's this
Speaker 1: lady and I think she was an alcoholic because we've
Speaker 1: come there. We've gone where police have got a bloke
Speaker 1: covered in blood bleeding, and we're gone. We need if
Speaker 1: you've got a phone, we need to use your phone.
Speaker 1: And she said, would you like a drink? And she
Speaker 1: went a drink, but can we use your phone? We
Speaker 1: ended up the ambulance wouldn't come in until the police
Speaker 1: came in and cleared because this blake had firearms, and
Speaker 1: so you get experiences like.
Speaker 2: That, and I mean, that's lovely hospitality.
Speaker 1: Well but I still remember remember that. And luckily my
Speaker 1: mate Paul, he was a nurse before he joined the cops,
Speaker 1: because our injured colleague was starting to hyperventilate. And you
Speaker 1: learn things too each day, because Paul said, is there
Speaker 1: a vacuum cleaner bag here? And I'm thinking, God, we've
Speaker 1: got the owner of the house wanting to drink. You're
Speaker 1: looking for the vacuum cleaner and just getting in the
Speaker 1: blow into a bag just so he wasn't hyper ventilating.
Speaker 1: So you have situations like that and tragic what happened.
Speaker 1: We ended up catching the blow, but you get paid
Speaker 1: for that. That's an adventure like it's it's exciting times
Speaker 1: it is.
Speaker 3: How do you decompress after a situation like that? Because
Speaker 3: I would find I just want to go.
Speaker 2: To the pub for a few beers straight after a
Speaker 2: situation like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we do. And I've learned because I was involved
Speaker 1: in a couple of incidents and another one where a
Speaker 1: crook was shot and killed when I was speaking to him,
Speaker 1: and you get put in This is before people really
Speaker 1: understood post traumatic stress in the way people should be
Speaker 1: decompressed from incidents like that. So you get put in
Speaker 1: the room with all the cops sitting sitting around and
Speaker 1: a psychologists or whatever it'll come in and go, has
Speaker 1: anyone got a problem here? And all the tough guys
Speaker 1: and girls go no, no, so And that second not
Speaker 1: so much, the one where the cop was shot with
Speaker 1: the dog thing. I process that, but we did go
Speaker 1: out on the drink that night.
Speaker 2: But what that's it. They just everyone's sitting a room
Speaker 2: going is anyone got a problem?
Speaker 1: Everyone got a problem. Then you get dragged into internal affairs,
Speaker 1: like then you're getting interviewed like you've done something wrong,
Speaker 1: because that's the starting point. And then the one piece
Speaker 1: of advice they say, look, don't go out drinking and
Speaker 1: what just as it gets what they think the first
Speaker 1: thing is you go out and you get on the
Speaker 1: piss big time. And after that crooklet was shot and killed.
Speaker 1: I remember I went out, got on the drink, and
Speaker 1: you know, we're being tough guys, you know, okay, this
Speaker 1: is the world we operate in. But I remember I
Speaker 1: got home that night and I just I was going
Speaker 1: to leave the cops. I want to become a Floria
Speaker 1: still something. So it took a couple of days to
Speaker 1: process that.
Speaker 3: Even these days we talk about opening up and it
Speaker 3: ain't weak to speak, but if you're in that kind
Speaker 3: of situation with a whole bunch of coppers and you've
Speaker 3: had that situation, they might as well say, as anyone
Speaker 3: here a pussy, because.
Speaker 2: That's exactly how.
Speaker 1: We interpreted that conversation. I'm really upset by that. It
Speaker 1: was rather the traumatic. Look, they got better now, like
Speaker 1: in homicide, we're meant to see a psychologist every six
Speaker 1: months and yeah with bravado, but it gave an opportunity
Speaker 1: where you could actually say, well, I'm doing a bit
Speaker 1: tough on things. So society has learned that you can
Speaker 1: actually talk about it. But sometimes, you know, getting getting
Speaker 1: on the drink was a good thing, and early days
Speaker 1: in the detectives that probably went too far. Like quite often, yeah,
Speaker 1: we'd finish the day and then there'd be a long lunch.
Speaker 1: It turns into a dinner and all that, and you
Speaker 1: got into that habit, but that was the day of
Speaker 1: the corporate lunches and all that. But some funny it's
Speaker 1: just making me think about some of the lunches as
Speaker 1: a young detective, and I think this is statute barred
Speaker 1: now or I can't remember the names of people even
Speaker 1: if they wanted me to come for a drink of
Speaker 1: the local Chinese restaurant, as you do as a detective
Speaker 1: on a Friday afternoon. And there's this boat sitting there.
Speaker 1: There was into state police down. There's a bloat there
Speaker 1: that was dressed in not the detectives of the outfit.
Speaker 1: And we're sitting sitting talking and he's gone up to
Speaker 1: get the toilet. I said, who's this boat? I know
Speaker 1: he's a prisoner, we're taking him back.
Speaker 3: It was yeah, he's just moving around for really a
Speaker 3: little a.
Speaker 1: Little bit loose, but those were the days and they
Speaker 1: had to change. But it was funny and the things
Speaker 1: that things that could happen.
Speaker 3: Do you think that, like all your interactions with people
Speaker 3: that are constantly lying to you to protect themselves and
Speaker 3: also just the crimes you've seen, makes you a bit
Speaker 3: of a cynic. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't know whether cynic's the right word, but I
Speaker 1: don't buy into you could sit here and look at
Speaker 1: me to you blue in the face going I didn't
Speaker 1: do it. I didn't do it. That doesn't mean a
Speaker 1: lot to me. I read body language and yeah, a
Speaker 1: bit of instinct, but looking at the facts with the instinct.
Speaker 1: But cynic in that if someone says they haven't done
Speaker 1: everyone's got secrets and you find that out and people
Speaker 1: are prepared to lie to protect themselves or protect other people.
Speaker 1: So a little bit cynical in that, Oh, but they
Speaker 1: said he didn't do it. I had some detectives. There's
Speaker 1: one particular detective, a young detective that came into the
Speaker 1: office and quiet saw the guy got a crook in there,
Speaker 1: and this is me talking like old school cop. But
Speaker 1: there's a crook in there that's done this job one
Speaker 1: hundred percent. And in work, his name's not John, but
Speaker 1: we'll call him John just for the sake of the story.
Speaker 1: John goes in there and you see the crook talking
Speaker 1: to him, and I'm watching, just seeing how he's going
Speaker 1: in the interview room, and John comes out and goes,
Speaker 1: I don't think he did it, And really, John, and
Speaker 1: so I don't think he Yeah, he's got a skill
Speaker 1: set that maybe didn't relate to being the detective. And
Speaker 1: then go in there and go, mate, you're saying that
Speaker 1: you didn't do it. We've got you on this this
Speaker 1: and that, Yeah, I did it. Looks like he's done it.
Speaker 1: So I suppose you learn a little bit, but sinning yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd like to think I'm not a synic.
Speaker 3: Do you think that it's sometimes unhelpful having that perspective
Speaker 3: because you're dealing with people that are lying to all
Speaker 3: the time, that sometimes it can leak into your personal
Speaker 3: life or friends or family, that when you kind of
Speaker 3: catch him.
Speaker 2: Out of a lie, you could probably let it go.
Speaker 2: But you're using your detective skills.
Speaker 1: I have been and whether it's a domestic situation, family situation,
Speaker 1: or friends. I'm thinking, I know I've got the skills
Speaker 1: to break you down. Though it could be a harmless
Speaker 1: thing where your mate said, no, I didn't do it,
Speaker 1: and you're thinking, I could prove that he's done it
Speaker 1: if we got the CCTV, if we got this, got
Speaker 1: that there. There is an element of that.
Speaker 3: You're at the pub, your mate says, you're gonna have
Speaker 3: to get the next round. I forgot my wallet, and
Speaker 3: you know for a fact you sort of bolts in
Speaker 3: his pants walking in, and then he's like, you're right, Gary,
Speaker 3: Actually I've got a gambling problem. I lost all my money,
Speaker 3: but I do have my wallet. You're right, you're happy now.
Speaker 3: I don't feel a better now that I've busted the case.
Speaker 2: But you're right.
Speaker 1: That is that is something. And I suppose in domestic
Speaker 1: relationships too, you've got that propensity to really break it
Speaker 1: down and go, oh that that doesn't quite add up.
Speaker 1: If I'm looking here and there, and the time when
Speaker 1: you go the timeline or whatever for a friend or
Speaker 1: family member, you know you've gone too far. But my
Speaker 1: kids they hated it because they thought the cops, as
Speaker 1: kids do I've got special powers. And you know, if,
Speaker 1: as you do as a young kid, you're going to
Speaker 1: lie to your parents. Now, I wasn't doing that. Wasn't
Speaker 1: doing that. You realize what they do for work. I
Speaker 1: do know, and that they think there's special powers that
Speaker 1: you haven't actually gotten. I've got some confessions that way
Speaker 1: from the how many.
Speaker 3: How many times would their friends have been nervous about
Speaker 3: any kind of trouble that we're gonna get up to
Speaker 3: because like your old man's a cop.
Speaker 1: My son got caught out big time in the one.
Speaker 1: Who've done a lot of things that yeah, I probably
Speaker 1: shouldn't shouldn't talk about. I was at one stage I
Speaker 1: was seenor person in Perth and I had a place
Speaker 1: up on the coast, on the central coast, so my
Speaker 1: house was empty when my son was a teenager and
Speaker 1: he knew I was going to Perth for that weekend.
Speaker 1: I'm thinking what would I be doing when I'm a teenager?
Speaker 1: I'll be when are you going dad? What time are
Speaker 1: you coming back? What flight do you on? That type stuff?
Speaker 1: And he never really asked me questions. So I'm thinking,
Speaker 1: my god, I've raised a nerd. He's not exploiting the
Speaker 1: situation of an empty house. Not until he got older.
Speaker 1: Eighteen nineteen, I'm finding out some of the parties that
Speaker 1: he had had at that house, and they were apparently
Speaker 1: legendary parties because Jubi's old old man has gone over
Speaker 1: the perth.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: So you were there thinking you're too smart for him,
Speaker 3: because otherwise he would give he'd be a dig giveaway. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but he was too smart for him.
Speaker 1: And his mates say, remember the time we nearly dropped
Speaker 1: that and we had to clean this up and clean
Speaker 1: that up because I'd go through and go it doesn't
Speaker 1: look like they've done anything. But he got caught out
Speaker 1: big time. The classic. I'm staying at Matt's and Matt's
Speaker 1: staying here and so no one really knows where they're staying.
Speaker 1: And I got there was an armed robber craving havoc
Speaker 1: around Chatswood. So I'd been out till two o'clock in
Speaker 1: the morning. I'm driving home and there's this pack of
Speaker 1: kids in the coastal town where we were living, probably
Speaker 1: forty or fifty kids that have just some marked police
Speaker 1: car just driven. I'm driving up there and they swarmed
Speaker 1: around the car like a pack of sheep. They were
Speaker 1: just up to cause trouble, you know, thirteen fourteen year olds.
Speaker 1: I coached my son's soccer team, so I knew some
Speaker 1: of the faces. I'm looking around, go that's interesting. And
Speaker 1: then one of his best mates. I'm sitting there because
Speaker 1: they've stopped the car. I could couldn't do anything, and
Speaker 1: I've wound the window down and he stuck his head
Speaker 1: in there to say something will be funny, and he's
Speaker 1: just gone, shit, it's Jubo's dead. And I watched the
Speaker 1: kids just run and disperse. Jake's out all night. He's
Speaker 1: come home the next morning. He's walking up the stairs
Speaker 1: and he's not looking at me. Did you have a
Speaker 1: good night last night? And he's gone, I've been caught,
Speaker 1: haven't I? And I've got what gave gave her the
Speaker 1: way said the car. I was hoping that wasn't your car.
Speaker 3: So my old man was a teacher at school in
Speaker 3: sa in Waronga, and luckily I'm the fourth of five,
Speaker 3: so mellowed out over time. But my elder sister was
Speaker 3: at a party when she was like sixteen, and my
Speaker 3: dad taught it the same school that she went to,
Speaker 3: and he went to pick her up and he realized
Speaker 3: that there was no parents a parental division party, and
Speaker 3: he knew all the kids the party, so when he
Speaker 3: went home, he called all their parents and my sister
Speaker 3: was like a you know, she was a leper.
Speaker 2: No one wanted to associated after that. So that's a teacher.
Speaker 2: So I feel for that.
Speaker 3: When you when your best mate's dad is a cop,
Speaker 3: you're like, oh shit, you know, we're gonna be careful.
Speaker 1: You know, And I don't. I don't think they enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: I really really don't. And there was nothing cool about
Speaker 1: your dad being a cop, and theyre just and a
Speaker 1: couple of times when I was with them, I had
Speaker 1: to step in and you know, pull the badge on
Speaker 1: different things, and as you are at that age as
Speaker 1: a teenage, you just so embarrassed and they're just going,
Speaker 1: don't do this, don't do this, and okay, just wait here.
Speaker 3: What are the cases that you would say that you're
Speaker 3: most proud of of the course your career.
Speaker 1: Look, there's a lot of I've done some high profile,
Speaker 1: high profile cases. The cases that I'm proud of are
Speaker 1: the ones that I bought a skill set or the
Speaker 1: team that I'm working with, we bought the skill set
Speaker 1: to that matter to make sure that they get solved,
Speaker 1: and the ones. The longer you stay in homicide, you
Speaker 1: get to the point where you're looking for a challenge
Speaker 1: with an investigation. That sounds cocky or whatever, but there's
Speaker 1: some murders that are pretty easy to solve. Some of
Speaker 1: the things. I'm proud of it just where you get
Speaker 1: called out because there's a homicide detective. You're on call.
Speaker 1: So if there's a murder anywhere in the state, you
Speaker 1: get notified as a homicide team and then you get
Speaker 1: called out to that location. You might only spend a
Speaker 1: day or two there, but you're making some real hard,
Speaker 1: sharp decisions, and as a result of those decisions, it
Speaker 1: might be as simple as sees that car get the
Speaker 1: statement from that person. These matters get solved. They're the
Speaker 1: ones that I'm generalizing here. They're the ones I'm proud of.
Speaker 1: Bowerble Obviously it comes to mind, and this is one
Speaker 1: that people throw it back at me. You haven't solved it.
Speaker 1: It hasn't been solved by the courts, but I know
Speaker 1: I made a difference in that community, the indigenous community
Speaker 1: where Evelyn Clinton and Colin were murdered, and the way
Speaker 1: that they were treated at the start, and I came
Speaker 1: in on the reinvestigation. I'm extremely proud of that in
Speaker 1: that showing that yeah, we do care like people care.
Speaker 1: They taught me a lot about a lot about myself,
Speaker 1: a lot about the way I lived my life, and
Speaker 1: a lot about being a police officer. So many different
Speaker 1: ones that I'm proud of. I don't like to single
Speaker 1: them out because every life is so important, but in
Speaker 1: a general sense, the ones that you're told you can't
Speaker 1: solve are the ones that inspire me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, are there ones where you kind of got close
Speaker 3: to losing hope? You're like, I think I just and
Speaker 3: then something clicked. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Murder of Barbara Saunders was the first, and that
Speaker 1: was back in two thousand and it was a lady
Speaker 1: that was shot at Normanhurst Railway stations coming home from shopping.
Speaker 1: And that was the first investigation that I led as
Speaker 1: a detective detective sergeant, and I threw everything I had
Speaker 1: into that investigation. I wasn't sure where it was going
Speaker 1: to go, and then we got a breakthrough after about
Speaker 1: four or five, six, six weeks and which led to
Speaker 1: solving the crime. I'm really pleased that pleased with that
Speaker 1: and that was linking crimes. It's an interesting story and
Speaker 1: I talk about this sometimes, lecturing that you've got to
Speaker 1: address the little crimes before they become a big, big crime.
Speaker 1: So what happened with the murder of Barbara, and it
Speaker 1: was a tragedy. She's just in the wrong place at
Speaker 1: the wrong time. Some kids, and they were only kids.
Speaker 1: That's sad all around. Some kids started breaking into a
Speaker 1: school cantem and that wasn't investigated properly. They kept breaking
Speaker 1: into the school cantem got the way of that. Then
Speaker 1: they started breaking into houses and again, if you really
Speaker 1: put the resources in, you could have solved it. But
Speaker 1: it just wasn't true. That wasn't recognized as a potentially
Speaker 1: serious crime. They broke into a house that had a
Speaker 1: gun and they've stolen the gun. Then they've done an
Speaker 1: armed robbery at the local liquor store, and so the
Speaker 1: crimes escalating. Then Barbara, who's been at Christmas shopping with
Speaker 1: some of the old friends, had come back, got off
Speaker 1: the train and these kids fronted her and wanted her bag,
Speaker 1: and she resisted. They've panicked and they've shot her and
Speaker 1: killed her. That was such a such a such a
Speaker 1: tragedy and we got the breakthrough in that came when
Speaker 1: we linked some of her Oh that's right, some of
Speaker 1: her stolen stolen property was used at the service station.
Speaker 1: And we and I'll say this it's not giving away methodology,
Speaker 1: but we recreated the crime scene a week after after
Speaker 1: she was murdered, and one of the kids that was
Speaker 1: involved in the murder came walking through the crime scene
Speaker 1: and we got his name and that's how we linked
Speaker 1: linked the crime and.
Speaker 2: Came in for a sticky beak.
Speaker 1: It came in a curiosity. We've made a point of
Speaker 1: recreating the scene. We want to speak to people in
Speaker 1: the era, and he couldn't help himself and came in.
Speaker 1: And that happens a lot in investigations. People ingratiate themselves
Speaker 1: in the investigation because I think they're I won't say curious,
Speaker 1: because it's not curious. I think they're just troubled and
Speaker 1: worried and just want to find out what's going on.
Speaker 3: I mean, you see that in movies at the time
Speaker 3: of the serial killer is still lurking around because it's
Speaker 3: like an ego thing.
Speaker 2: They think that they're invisible or whatever. They want to
Speaker 2: see it. They want to have a close eye on
Speaker 2: what the investigation.
Speaker 1: Is doing one hundred percent, one hundred percent, and you've
Speaker 1: got to you've got to look look at that and think,
Speaker 1: why is this person. I have another one that it
Speaker 1: was a horrible, horrible murder an elderly lady and she
Speaker 1: was sexually assaulted in a home in their eighties. And
Speaker 1: there was a bloke that really he kept walking around
Speaker 1: around the area saying that, yeah, he's a suspect for
Speaker 1: this job. As it turned out that wasn't. He wasn't
Speaker 1: the suspect. But people, it's funny how people react when
Speaker 1: someone's been murdered.
Speaker 3: And what he actually had done it.
Speaker 1: No, No, he hadn't, He hadn't done it.
Speaker 3: Oh, he was just an attention seeker.
Speaker 1: He yeah, he he was a widder. He was a widder.
Speaker 1: And you come across a lot of widows. And that's
Speaker 1: and when I say that, I say it without any
Speaker 1: mental health background or knowledge. They're just with that.
Speaker 3: That's muddy the waters. You know, when you're trying to
Speaker 3: talk to someone and identify a suspect, and there's some
Speaker 3: people who just like answer questions really badly because they're
Speaker 3: just odd people.
Speaker 1: And you've got to be wary of that, because I
Speaker 1: call it like a litmus test in that I'll ask
Speaker 1: a question and just see a reaction from a person.
Speaker 1: But you've got a factor in some people don't think rationally.
Speaker 1: And I always make the point a lot of times.
Speaker 1: And I was taught this by the people that I
Speaker 1: looked up to, and I tried to pass this knowledge
Speaker 1: on to other people that when someone commits a crime,
Speaker 1: and I'll be going, look this happened, and we do
Speaker 1: have the white boards, like we say we love the
Speaker 1: white boards in the incident room and going we've got this,
Speaker 1: we've got that. And someone will say, but why would
Speaker 1: you do that? And I always throw back, you're trying
Speaker 1: to put the rational thought into an irrational mind, and
Speaker 1: you've got to be mindful of that.
Speaker 2: There's good cop back cops still workers.
Speaker 1: I love it. Do you switch it up or you
Speaker 1: when it really confuses bad cop, bad cop? That sends
Speaker 1: them into a skin, But it works. And I say this,
Speaker 1: good cop, bad cop. It's human nature. You want to
Speaker 1: be yeah, you want to be liked, or most most
Speaker 1: people do. So you gravitate towards a person that's showing
Speaker 1: you the empathy and that. And the other thing, Andrew
Speaker 1: is that people why do people confess? Sometimes I've come
Speaker 1: out of an interview room and go, how did you
Speaker 1: get that person to confess? Quite often you think of
Speaker 1: the worst thing you've done in your life, and no,
Speaker 1: don't Actually, I don't want you to. I don't want
Speaker 1: you to confess worst thing you've done in your life
Speaker 1: and the burden that you carry with it. But if
Speaker 1: you've got the best made or someone close to you
Speaker 1: that you can confess and that it takes a little
Speaker 1: bit of pressure off. Imagine if you murdered someone, the
Speaker 1: weight of pressure that you're carrying on your shoulders. And
Speaker 1: I've honestly seeing some people just unburden themselves in that
Speaker 1: you know, it's not intimidate, it's not coming over the
Speaker 1: top of them. They just want to clear their conscience
Speaker 1: and go, yeah this happened, and you see it, You
Speaker 1: see it changes. They go from just tense and then
Speaker 1: they feel better. Now feel better. They're going to jail
Speaker 1: for twenty years. It's not the real You're not selling something,
Speaker 1: you're not selling the house to them. But quite often
Speaker 1: confessions come from the fact that they just want to
Speaker 1: light that load. Yeah, yeah, because you carry it like
Speaker 1: imagine and yeah, people, you've committed a serious crime, cops
Speaker 1: can come and get your twenty years to thirty years
Speaker 1: down the track. So it's a load to load to carry.
Speaker 3: What about when you come at someone hard the bad
Speaker 3: crop and you're trying to get information out of them,
Speaker 3: but it turns out they're they're the wrong guy.
Speaker 2: That must be hard as well.
Speaker 3: To feel like I was a total prick to this
Speaker 3: person and they were totally innocent.
Speaker 1: When I've lectured in detective courses or the homicide courses,
Speaker 1: I use this story and I won't identify the actual crime,
Speaker 1: but question where a lady was killed and the husband
Speaker 1: was a potential suspect for it. So I went out
Speaker 1: him hard and it was a hard interview. And it's
Speaker 1: it's what's with the tears? That type of thing. It
Speaker 1: was in your face type interview.
Speaker 3: It must be in your head, It must be a
Speaker 3: part of you is like what if we're wrong? What
Speaker 3: if we get it? What if this?
Speaker 1: Most definitely And I know people I don't like doing that.
Speaker 1: You don't. Yeah, people might think you enjoy it. No,
Speaker 1: you're getting the character and you do it. That's what
Speaker 1: you're being paid to do. As a homicide detective. You
Speaker 1: don't walk in there. It's not all singing kumbai Ah.
Speaker 1: You're trying to solve a murder. Someone's life has been taken,
Speaker 1: so you're not mucking around. You're playing playing first grade.
Speaker 1: So you go in there and you have the hard,
Speaker 1: hard questions with this spoke. I went went hard at him,
Speaker 1: and then for good reason, there was stuff there that
Speaker 1: potentially potentially made a suspect he might have had some involvement,
Speaker 1: and then after it we found out it wasn't him.
Speaker 1: And I spoke to him about the conversation I've had
Speaker 1: with him, and I said, look, I'm sorry, but I'm
Speaker 1: doing my job. I hope you understand that. He said, Gary,
Speaker 1: I felt so good when I saw the way that
Speaker 1: you were speaking to me and that you were the
Speaker 1: right person to be doing this job because you cared
Speaker 1: and you were going to do everything that had to
Speaker 1: be done, not breaking rules, but just going hard. That
Speaker 1: helped me through a lot in terms of, you know,
Speaker 1: I've gone hard on people and realized, no, they're not
Speaker 1: the person. You can't take back what you've said or
Speaker 1: what you've done. But that gave me a little bit
Speaker 1: of strength knowing that that's how people really think. And
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, if it was my loved one killed, I'd
Speaker 1: want the cops going hard. And we're not talking we're
Speaker 1: not talking to break and enter that type of thing.
Speaker 1: We're talking to murder. So yeah, the state stakes are high.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's an interesting perspective, and it's I mean,
Speaker 3: he must have just felt good to hear you also
Speaker 3: say I'm sorry, but this is the way we've.
Speaker 1: Got to do things. Yes, yeah, and you can do
Speaker 1: things in respectful, respectful ways. And if people are intimidated
Speaker 1: because of the line of questioning, well if they if
Speaker 1: they've done it, I'm not worried. If I'm intimidating, I'm
Speaker 1: not threatening, promise, But if they're being intimidated by the
Speaker 1: fact that I'm professional and come in here and know
Speaker 1: my ship and go at them, I wouldn't like someone
Speaker 1: coming at me that looked professional and knew all all
Speaker 1: stuff about me.
Speaker 3: So yeah, I had a very cop funny conversation where
Speaker 3: my house got raided and there was like a bunch
Speaker 3: of cops going through, you know, my whole house, trying
Speaker 3: to find drugs everywhere, and I was there with like
Speaker 3: the sergeant who was just chatting to me, and I
Speaker 3: was so coked up. I was like, there was a
Speaker 3: choice between you the going back to the police station
Speaker 3: or staying in the house, and I chose to stay there.
Speaker 2: And so he was.
Speaker 3: We were just having small talk, like you know, where'd
Speaker 3: you grow up, all that kind of stuff, and every
Speaker 3: now and then he'd try and add in like a
Speaker 3: crime question. He'd be like, so, how long you've been
Speaker 3: selling drugs herefore? And I'd be like, cople mate, we
Speaker 3: just said we're just going to have some small talking
Speaker 3: to go. Can't blame a guy for try.
Speaker 1: I've seen that tech never really bought into that tactic
Speaker 1: sort of yeah, it's a nice day, why do you
Speaker 1: kill it?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's yeah, I know it might work. Maybe I
Speaker 4: should have a few bites later we were like, oh,
Speaker 4: you go for the eels? Yeah, you know, And so
Speaker 4: where do you get your drugs from?
Speaker 1: And I'm like, come on, mate, it's a bit of
Speaker 1: a like a Perry Mason type courtroom.
Speaker 3: I think one thing I have most people would acknowledged
Speaker 3: in the workplace is good talent is hard to find,
Speaker 3: and I imagine that's probably the same in the police
Speaker 3: for So there are times when you've worked with colleagues
Speaker 3: and just saw this guy's dumb as bricks.
Speaker 1: I have worked with some.
Speaker 2: And let me say this.
Speaker 1: I'm sure people have said they've worked with me and
Speaker 1: I'm as dumb as dumb. But this is my perspective.
Speaker 1: I'm dumb.
Speaker 3: But what do you do when you when there's a
Speaker 3: guy that's leading a case and you just think that's
Speaker 3: never going to get solved if he's involved.
Speaker 1: I'm a big believer in and when I was running investigations,
Speaker 1: I went for quality, not quantity, Like don't give me
Speaker 1: ten dud detectives, Give me two gun detectives and I
Speaker 1: will get more, more done. A couple of things, and
Speaker 1: there's some that some people I've worked with and I'm
Speaker 1: just thinking, what the hell, what how did this person
Speaker 1: get here working on a homicide investigation. And I've worked
Speaker 1: with some people I look up to the younger, quicker,
Speaker 1: smarter that come in and keep me on matteo. So
Speaker 1: it's not me sort of sitting myself above everyone, but
Speaker 1: things like that. There's a lot of paperwork in policing,
Speaker 1: and I had a couple of people on the high
Speaker 1: profile strikeforce. That a file an exhibit file. It's about
Speaker 1: as simple as simple can be it because this could
Speaker 1: be the exhibit this glass, the glass was seized at
Speaker 1: such and such, it has now been fingerprinted, that can
Speaker 1: be returned to the owner or destroyed. You know, it's
Speaker 1: a little half page report. This guy couldn't do a
Speaker 1: exhibit file. And I'm thinking, and I've gone to the
Speaker 1: person that sits above me, the boss above me, go,
Speaker 1: what do you want me to do with this person
Speaker 1: like he's will help him, encourage him and support him.
Speaker 1: I'd have to take him back to kindergarten.
Speaker 2: How do you get this fast?
Speaker 1: Yeah? How did he get this fast? And they should
Speaker 1: set standards. I'm a big one in setting stands. There
Speaker 1: needs to be pass and file. If someone can't articulate
Speaker 1: or put a report on paper, they shouldn't be doing
Speaker 1: the job. There might be other roles that they can do.
Speaker 1: There might be other roles that they can do that
Speaker 1: don't need that, but don't have them in that environment.
Speaker 1: And there's some that just I say, just stupid. No,
Speaker 1: I think we've probably all met those people in any workplace.
Speaker 3: But how do you solve it to get like the
Speaker 3: right people to be detectives. It's just a money thing,
Speaker 3: is it? Like, is it a pr thing to pitch this?
Speaker 3: Is this is the job? Or do you have to
Speaker 3: actively go and try and recruit people who aren't even
Speaker 3: looking to be a detective.
Speaker 1: I think I know people. I know people I could
Speaker 1: pull off the street, give me a week and I
Speaker 1: could make them as like a productive member of a
Speaker 1: an investigative team. I think there needs to be standard
Speaker 1: set there and this, And people go, are you arrogant
Speaker 1: prick saying this? But I'm going to say it because
Speaker 1: I firmly believe it. When I came in the homicide,
Speaker 1: it was you had to pay pay your dues. You
Speaker 1: worked in the local as a local detective, someone might
Speaker 1: have noticed your work. And then you worked in major crime,
Speaker 1: different sorts of major crime, organized crime, that might be
Speaker 1: the tile up squad. And then if you were performing
Speaker 1: in that, you got the tap on the shoulder and
Speaker 1: you got the homicide. When I got the homicide, it
Speaker 1: was the proudest moment of my career that this is
Speaker 1: what I aspired to. I looked at these people as
Speaker 1: God's homicide homicide detectives. By the time I left policing
Speaker 1: in homicide, we were having people and having people come
Speaker 1: into homicide that didn't even weren't even designated detectives, that
Speaker 1: hadn't hadn't even got the designation. So designation of detective
Speaker 1: two years sort of training to have the privilege, and
Speaker 1: I think it should be a privilege have been called
Speaker 1: the detective. So people that are playing closed constables, haven't
Speaker 1: they even finished their detective's course working homicide. Then you've
Speaker 1: got people when you apply.
Speaker 2: Why is that? Why are they're getting fast tracked into that?
Speaker 1: I think they're a shortage of a shortage of police,
Speaker 1: which is sort of a chronic problem. But I also
Speaker 1: I've dealt with dealt with some people that really actively
Speaker 1: sought to get them out of the cops. And what
Speaker 1: I saw with state elections because I was dealing with
Speaker 1: the police medical officer a lot, because I had a
Speaker 1: couple of people with some serious problems that I kept
Speaker 1: getting told. But it's a performance issue. I'm going they're mad,
Speaker 1: and they're saying, well, the parameters of insanity this wide,
Speaker 1: they fit within that. They've not seen pink elephants fly,
Speaker 1: but they're pretty close. But state election and Laura in
Speaker 1: order becomes an issue, so they all people that were
Speaker 1: rejected to join the police are now accepted to be
Speaker 1: the police. And it was like you could see the
Speaker 1: spike after about eighteen months. These are all the people
Speaker 1: that end up back at the police medical officer because
Speaker 1: they're not suitable to be police officers. So it's people
Speaker 1: that it's a vacation. It's people that want to do it,
Speaker 1: people that committed to do it. I'd had people on
Speaker 1: homicide that didn't like working weekends or couldn't work in
Speaker 1: the afternoon. It's not a nine to five job.
Speaker 3: So I do part time homicide solving.
Speaker 1: Look, look you can, and there's some women because of children,
Speaker 1: have worked part time and committed. But there's people that
Speaker 1: I just really they're not conscripts. So you come to homicide,
Speaker 1: you're going to see dead bodies, You're going to have
Speaker 1: to work hard. And I just really believe the level
Speaker 1: and the point. I remember having having a discussion and yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to lose any friends on it, but
Speaker 1: this is the reality of it. There's a person supplying
Speaker 1: to be an inspectorate homicide but didn't want to come
Speaker 1: to homicide, and I've gone, well, why would we have
Speaker 1: an inspector at homicide that doesn't want to be hungry
Speaker 1: for the job. Not hungry. You've got to be passionate
Speaker 1: about it, passion with perspective, but you've got to be
Speaker 1: hungry about it. So yeah, you can see I've still
Speaker 1: got the passion for it in that murders are soul
Speaker 1: because and it doesn't have to be the leader of
Speaker 1: the investigation, but because committed people are doing something above
Speaker 1: and beyond and really nailing it. And you make one
Speaker 1: mistake with murder, and people literally literally get away of murder.
Speaker 1: So you need people. You need smart people, you need
Speaker 1: passionate people, and people that are dedicated to the job.
Speaker 3: Do you miss it? It's been what how long it
Speaker 3: was twenty nineteen when.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, so we're going into almost six years now.
Speaker 1: I still I miss aspects of it. I never feel
Speaker 1: as live as alive as I do when I'm on
Speaker 1: the trial of the solver of murder. I got job
Speaker 1: satisfaction from it. I enjoyed it. People often say with
Speaker 1: the police, I missed the people. There's certain people I miss.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to say I miss the people. I
Speaker 1: miss that the rest of your life could be a clusterfuck,
Speaker 1: but you were doing some good in policing. Having said that, Look,
Speaker 1: I'm having a ball with what I'm doing now and
Speaker 1: it's opened up opportunities for me that I wouldn't have got.
Speaker 1: And I reckon. You know when you said would I
Speaker 1: be a cynic? I reckon, I would have been a
Speaker 1: synic by now if I was still in the cops.
Speaker 3: I mean years have gone by. But like, what was
Speaker 3: it like when you first left? What was that first
Speaker 3: six months?
Speaker 2: Like that was was it hard?
Speaker 1: Great? It's tremendous waking up in the morning and sooning
Speaker 1: your face on the TV disgrace cop and the front
Speaker 1: page of the paper. Yeah, it was very hard. It
Speaker 1: was that it was my passion at the time and
Speaker 1: it was just ripped away. So anything that anyone that
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be policing, it's what you're passionate about.
Speaker 1: Imagine if your passion was just taken away from you
Speaker 1: and you're thinking that's unfair and unjust. And it took
Speaker 1: me a while to sort of recalibrate and go, Okay,
Speaker 1: well I'm not going to I'm not going to let
Speaker 1: them break me. Because there's certain people and they know
Speaker 1: who they are that went at me and it was
Speaker 1: just malicious. And I don't begrudge the police. I like
Speaker 1: the police. I like the work they're doing, and I've
Speaker 1: got a lot of good friends still in the police,
Speaker 1: and there's some great, great operators. But certain people, for
Speaker 1: their own petty little reasons, went at me and I
Speaker 1: was angry, and good people told me, where are you
Speaker 1: going to channel that? And I made a conscious effort
Speaker 1: just to go, Okay, I'm not going to be bitter.
Speaker 1: And I say i'd.
Speaker 3: Bitter every time I talk.
Speaker 1: Cranky, but I take a step back and think, Okay,
Speaker 1: what's the best form of revenge? And there is a
Speaker 1: bit of revenge in me. I'll show I can live
Speaker 1: a good life away from the cops. And I am
Speaker 1: living a good life. I'm carving out a career in
Speaker 1: the media, which is you know, I worked hard doing
Speaker 1: stuff here on the podcast, so I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: doing some good. I get invited to Parliament, I get
Speaker 1: invited to justice committees. I'm still doing things that I
Speaker 1: feel like I'm making the difference.
Speaker 3: But the way you talk about when you were a cop,
Speaker 3: that sounds almost like for me an addiction for me
Speaker 3: when I talk about comedy for me is such a
Speaker 3: positive addiction after being feeding so many negative addictions for
Speaker 3: so long. It definitely has brought out the best in me.
Speaker 3: It sounds like this thing was so good for you
Speaker 3: and you were saying like even when you had troubles
Speaker 3: in your own personal life, it was like you could
Speaker 3: focus so much on this.
Speaker 2: And did you feel like you're addicted to being a cop?
Speaker 1: There is an addiction to it. You're a hunter and
Speaker 1: people say that I speak to detectives. I respect, and
Speaker 1: that's what we're doing. We're hunting, and you get addicted
Speaker 1: to it and it's a thriller, the chase, and it's
Speaker 1: not diminishing the nature of the crime that you're investigating, murder,
Speaker 1: but you become very driven. That was it was my
Speaker 1: passion and you know, between you and it's the one
Speaker 1: thing I was very good at Like that. That was
Speaker 1: I found something that just sort of fitted the skill
Speaker 1: set that I've got. And so I do miss that
Speaker 1: and I miss some I was at the stage where
Speaker 1: I hadn't the passion, I had the energy and I
Speaker 1: had the experience, and you know, I was people that
Speaker 1: went before me. It was a lineage that was passed
Speaker 1: down people that taught me. I looked up to them,
Speaker 1: and I just feel like I had more to offer.
Speaker 1: But it's probably better for me where I've gone now.
Speaker 1: I think I'm a better person. I might have become
Speaker 1: too too focus if I stayed in much much longer.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, sometimes these shit hits the fan and
Speaker 3: you're forced to reinvent yourself, right and you have Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, well you know the people that sit here in
Speaker 1: this room, I'm thinking Jesus, there's some interesting stories and
Speaker 1: quite often the worst time in your life turns out
Speaker 1: be the best time in you turn it round.
Speaker 3: Well, just like you said that you were kind of
Speaker 3: you were wrong by the police a little bit.
Speaker 2: I was as well. Gary.
Speaker 3: You know when they arrested me for selling heaps of drugs,
Speaker 3: you know, I felt like that was pretty rude of them.
Speaker 1: And look, and you were passion that weekend and you
Speaker 1: were Look, I can apologize on behalf of the New
Speaker 1: South Wales Police for what they did to you. You
Speaker 1: were passionate about what you did.
Speaker 2: You feel a drug dealer, I thought I was doing
Speaker 2: good stuff.
Speaker 3: I like to think that, Like before they were having
Speaker 3: the meeting about it raiding my house and were like,
Speaker 3: do we have to like this guy? Seems like he's
Speaker 3: one of the good ones. And you know that they
Speaker 3: were having some restless nights after when I was seeing
Speaker 3: in prison, like, oh no, we're.
Speaker 1: I'm sure they're thinking about that. Andrew. I've got to say,
Speaker 1: and I in this and I've heard a lot of
Speaker 1: arrest stories, but for some reason, you're a rest story
Speaker 1: made me laugh. I'm not laughing at you, I'm laughing
Speaker 1: with you. No.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean that was one of the first kind
Speaker 3: of jokes I wrote, was where the raptor squad tackled
Speaker 3: me and told me that I had a tiny cock,
Speaker 3: you know, and I had pants on. So that was
Speaker 3: the first joke I wrote was how do they know?
Speaker 3: They must have had me under surveillance? Right, But yeah,
Speaker 3: I think you know, I'm pretty philosophical about it now
Speaker 3: because like, the life that I have now wouldn't have
Speaker 3: happened if I didn't get raided and ended up reinventing
Speaker 3: myself in jail.
Speaker 1: And there's something empowering about reinventing yourself too. It freshens
Speaker 1: you up. It's a new challenge and yeah, okay, well
Speaker 1: this is this is a new world, even like just
Speaker 1: I've been a public servant for that long and so
Speaker 1: I had to set up a company and I'm looking
Speaker 1: at taxes and totally out of my depth and getting
Speaker 1: advice on that. But even little things like okay, well
Speaker 1: I'm doing work. Now, where's my stationary cupboard? Like you've
Speaker 1: got to go, You've got to get.
Speaker 3: Got to do all of you sound like a rugby
Speaker 3: league player when they're they're out of the system and
Speaker 3: suddenly like what do I do?
Speaker 1: I've got to do this allways, But that was where's
Speaker 1: the prince is not working? Who's going to fix it?
Speaker 1: Like that? That was my go to in that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I left as a detective chief inspector. You've got people
Speaker 1: around that can help you with that. How do you
Speaker 1: fill out this form? So yeah, it's awakening for me,
Speaker 1: awakening a learning curve and what I've done and people
Speaker 1: that come in from a place bag me because I've
Speaker 1: got all the labels. I love dim labeling, like in
Speaker 1: the in the store's cabinet. I don't know if that's
Speaker 1: an old habit from from policing, but blank paper because
Speaker 1: I need that sign so I know it's blank paper there. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Wow, the organizational skills have carried on.
Speaker 1: Right exactly exactly, just waiting for the big breakthrough.
Speaker 2: Should we have a break.
Speaker 1: Yeah, let's have a break now. And yeah, I'm enjoying this.
Speaker 1: The pressures off. If if this goes bad, it's your fault.
Speaker 2: You know, you've.
Speaker 1: Come storming in here saying I'm going to run this show.
Speaker 1: You better not take my job. I will be bitter
Speaker 1: over there.
Speaker 2: He's actually, yeah, we like you more.
Speaker 1: All right, we'll have a break.
Speaker 2: It is an active at Dinam