1
00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:04,920
Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

2
00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,080
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

3
00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,120
Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

4
00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,040
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

5
00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,240
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

6
00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:20,560
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, staid,

7
00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,160
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

8
00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,439
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

9
00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,800
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

10
00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,479
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

11
00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,640
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

12
00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,680
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

13
00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:40,400
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

14
00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:48,839
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with ever

15
00:00:48,960 --> 00:00:51,839
Speaker 1: Risto Sallas, a man who is wrongly convicted of a

16
00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:54,320
Speaker 1: murder and who has spent twenty six years of his

17
00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,840
Speaker 1: life in prison before being exonerated. In part one, we

18
00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:00,520
Speaker 1: discussed his early life and how he felt and himself

19
00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:02,680
Speaker 1: convicted of a murder at the age of sixteen and

20
00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:07,160
Speaker 1: since to thirty two years in prison. Evaristo, welcome back

21
00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,600
Speaker 1: to our catch Killers we left you in part one,

22
00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:14,919
Speaker 1: you were talking about the emotion of seeing your father

23
00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:19,679
Speaker 1: after you've been convicted, just bringing people back into the story.

24
00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:24,520
Speaker 1: The courts decided as a sixteen year old. You were going, well,

25
00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:27,319
Speaker 1: you're actually fifteen at the time, but to try you

26
00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,279
Speaker 1: as an adult and send you to an adult prison,

27
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:36,039
Speaker 1: you get since thirty two years and nine months, how

28
00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:38,920
Speaker 1: do you cope with the process? That's you said at

29
00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,000
Speaker 1: the start of the podcast. For a young fellow, you

30
00:01:42,560 --> 00:01:46,600
Speaker 1: didn't fully comprehend the reality of what the life in

31
00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,680
Speaker 1: front of you played out to be. Can you tell

32
00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:52,160
Speaker 1: us when you went in the prison and you realize

33
00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:55,360
Speaker 1: when you realize this is in fact your life and

34
00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:56,800
Speaker 1: how you survived bad?

35
00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,760
Speaker 2: They're right there was It was like a month after

36
00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,040
Speaker 2: I was convicted that she's sensimated thirty two years and

37
00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:05,600
Speaker 2: then months, and that in itself kind of kind of

38
00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:08,320
Speaker 2: showed me what was awaiting, you know, was awaiting me

39
00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,040
Speaker 2: in prison, at least the mentality that would be awaiting me.

40
00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:15,240
Speaker 2: I remember going in the morning to be sims and

41
00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,640
Speaker 2: you know, as I walked in the courtroom, you know,

42
00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:24,000
Speaker 2: I looked to my my father again for that familiar

43
00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:28,240
Speaker 2: ritual that we did, and you know, to give me strength.

44
00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:30,640
Speaker 2: I looked at him and he had this kind of

45
00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:33,480
Speaker 2: his eyes were kind of glossed over. He had like

46
00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:38,600
Speaker 2: a thousand yards staring in his eyes, and it's almost

47
00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,160
Speaker 2: like he didn't see me. And I remember at that

48
00:02:42,240 --> 00:02:45,840
Speaker 2: moment that you know, he had this kind of look

49
00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:48,600
Speaker 2: in his faith too. That was you know, he wasn't

50
00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:53,840
Speaker 2: he wasn't crying, but the look in his face, you know,

51
00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:58,919
Speaker 2: kind of showed the pain that was underneath. And I

52
00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:01,800
Speaker 2: remember he kind of caught himsel and like came out

53
00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:03,280
Speaker 2: of it. He went to kind of smile, kind of

54
00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,240
Speaker 2: give me that strength again. But at that moment, that

55
00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:09,800
Speaker 2: just seeing that that, you know, that reaction and that

56
00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:11,920
Speaker 2: fear in his eyes that I hadn't seen, you know,

57
00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:15,920
Speaker 2: that was kind of the first time, even after I

58
00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:21,480
Speaker 2: was committed, that I felt fear in the entire process

59
00:03:22,160 --> 00:03:23,760
Speaker 2: because what that looks showed me because he had he

60
00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,000
Speaker 2: had a look in his eye like as if he

61
00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:28,560
Speaker 2: was about to see his child be devoured by lions.

62
00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:33,919
Speaker 2: It was that kind of look. And I remember thinking

63
00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:37,800
Speaker 2: to me that at that moment became real to me

64
00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:43,240
Speaker 2: that whenever I faced from this moment on for the

65
00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:44,760
Speaker 2: first time in my life, I would have to face

66
00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,760
Speaker 2: it alone that my father, no matter how much he

67
00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,560
Speaker 2: loved me, no matter how much he wished to protect me,

68
00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:53,520
Speaker 2: wouldn't be able to protect me from whatever was coming.

69
00:03:54,960 --> 00:03:57,280
Speaker 2: And that was that was one of the worst streemenies

70
00:03:57,320 --> 00:03:59,880
Speaker 2: in the world because that's when I really felt alone. Truly,

71
00:04:01,760 --> 00:04:04,960
Speaker 2: I knew that he couldn't protect them anymore. And when

72
00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:07,440
Speaker 2: I went to be sentenced, you know, they had these

73
00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,120
Speaker 2: impact statements where the family comes up and they, you know,

74
00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,200
Speaker 2: give their testimony how how this murder had impacted them,

75
00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,719
Speaker 2: you know, to something to that affect, and you know,

76
00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:20,720
Speaker 2: the family got up there. You know, his brother got

77
00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:24,039
Speaker 2: up there and and you know said what any brother

78
00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:27,920
Speaker 2: would say to a personally, you know, thought or some

79
00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:30,760
Speaker 2: you know killed their brother, and he laid into me.

80
00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:36,640
Speaker 2: You know, it's just some really horrible things. And it

81
00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:42,680
Speaker 2: was for me I had to accept that. It was

82
00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,080
Speaker 2: hard to accept that because I knew they were wrong,

83
00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:47,920
Speaker 2: but they didn't know they were wrong. They were led

84
00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:53,200
Speaker 2: to believe by this, you know, officer and the courts.

85
00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:57,520
Speaker 2: I mean that I was the person and it was

86
00:04:57,600 --> 00:04:59,760
Speaker 2: like somebody coming up to you and just slapping your

87
00:04:59,760 --> 00:05:03,640
Speaker 2: own or Virginia or something, and you can't move. We

88
00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:05,760
Speaker 2: just have to take it. And it's a it's an

89
00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:09,040
Speaker 2: emotional thing, you know, And and it was horrible because

90
00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,960
Speaker 2: I'm I'm I'm a compassionate person. I can you know,

91
00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,039
Speaker 2: I'm empathetic towards others, and I can feel, you know,

92
00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:18,120
Speaker 2: some pain. So to feel that kind of anger and

93
00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,000
Speaker 2: that her directed at me, you know, really hurt. And

94
00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,200
Speaker 2: I felt it. And the worst is when his mother

95
00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:28,599
Speaker 2: got up, Because the mother got up and she didn't,

96
00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:30,240
Speaker 2: you know, land to me that. She just said a

97
00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:34,600
Speaker 2: few words, but her words, you know, would would stay

98
00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:36,520
Speaker 2: with me in my insirecence. And she looked at me

99
00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,640
Speaker 2: and she said that, and she said in Spanish and

100
00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,599
Speaker 2: kind of like a really low kind of, you know,

101
00:05:43,720 --> 00:05:46,880
Speaker 2: kind of tone, and she just said that that I

102
00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:51,400
Speaker 2: had no heart for myself or for anybody else, that

103
00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:55,719
Speaker 2: I had taken her son from her, and that I was,

104
00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,679
Speaker 2: you know, a dark person, and that's all she said.

105
00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:02,919
Speaker 2: But those words right there stuck with me and and

106
00:06:03,080 --> 00:06:06,560
Speaker 2: they cut me deep because you know, growing up, you know,

107
00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,800
Speaker 2: my mother told me, you know, you're you're a bad kid.

108
00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,919
Speaker 2: You know, the system labeled me a certain thing. So

109
00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:15,880
Speaker 2: all the things in my life are conveying the same

110
00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:17,760
Speaker 2: message that she has just been different way, you know,

111
00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:24,560
Speaker 2: And and I remember it's this is the only time

112
00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:29,280
Speaker 2: I actually spoke my trout. I was able to speak,

113
00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:30,600
Speaker 2: so they asked me if I would, and I went

114
00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,240
Speaker 2: so I went up and spoke and I said a

115
00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:36,360
Speaker 2: few words. I just said, look, I don't know why

116
00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,680
Speaker 2: this happened. I don't know why they're saying that I

117
00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,719
Speaker 2: didn't kill anybody. I feel bad for the family, but

118
00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:48,320
Speaker 2: I didn't do it. And one in the days, You're

119
00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,520
Speaker 2: going to see that this is wrong, and I'm going

120
00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,359
Speaker 2: to prove it and the truth will come out. And

121
00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:58,919
Speaker 2: it was something to that effect, and he looks at me.

122
00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:03,680
Speaker 2: The judge looks at me, and he says, he said,

123
00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:05,240
Speaker 2: I'm gonna send you as much time as I can

124
00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:11,240
Speaker 2: possibly send you two it's in fact, I'm sending you

125
00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:13,880
Speaker 2: to a life sentence because if you when you get

126
00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,360
Speaker 2: out of prison after serving this thirty plus years, and

127
00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,600
Speaker 2: if you don't so much as pay your fine, I'm

128
00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:23,640
Speaker 2: gonna send you back to prison. And the way he

129
00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:26,880
Speaker 2: said it, though, like I said, everything had like this

130
00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:30,600
Speaker 2: this emotional charge behind it, a personal thing, and like

131
00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,880
Speaker 2: I said, I don't know if they do this as

132
00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,800
Speaker 2: as a way to convey the message to the victims.

133
00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:39,200
Speaker 2: I'm know, if this is just the natural way of

134
00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,200
Speaker 2: them when they send to people and try I don't know.

135
00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:42,760
Speaker 2: I don't know this kind of stuff. But it felt

136
00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,520
Speaker 2: really personal in the way he looked in the center

137
00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:49,000
Speaker 2: and he sends me a three hundred and nine three

138
00:07:49,080 --> 00:07:56,360
Speaker 2: months and I think it was a month later. Hold

139
00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,520
Speaker 2: on that chain bus to Shelling, which is a middle

140
00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:02,760
Speaker 2: dark prison, and I remember going down and they called

141
00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,120
Speaker 2: me to go out the chain. They don't tell you,

142
00:08:05,400 --> 00:08:08,400
Speaker 2: they don't tell your family nothing. They just come and

143
00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,440
Speaker 2: get you because security thing or something. I remember going

144
00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,560
Speaker 2: downstairs and they're lining us all up. You have strip naked,

145
00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:16,559
Speaker 2: all this kind of stuff, you know, and they're pretty

146
00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:19,440
Speaker 2: chained on us. The shack ones together like you're seeing

147
00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,440
Speaker 2: me all removies everything. The guard comes up to me.

148
00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,440
Speaker 2: I remember, he looks at me and he says, where

149
00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,040
Speaker 2: he's asking everybody your deal? Cneumbers? Are they ever? You know? Ben?

150
00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,080
Speaker 2: I didn't know what that meant. You know, I don't

151
00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,760
Speaker 2: know anything about prison or anything. And he looks at

152
00:08:32,760 --> 00:08:36,360
Speaker 2: me and he says, he says, I know you don't

153
00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:38,679
Speaker 2: have a DEALC number, but you're gonna have one for

154
00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:41,599
Speaker 2: a really long wrong time. And then he laughs, and

155
00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,319
Speaker 2: it was a sadistic laugh. And I didn't understand what

156
00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,440
Speaker 2: that meant at that young lady came later, but that

157
00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:51,040
Speaker 2: was kind of a micro cosm of what I was

158
00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:56,720
Speaker 2: going to face in prison. The indifference, the sadisticness, the ugliness,

159
00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:01,079
Speaker 2: you know, almost this kind of entirely a way, don't care,

160
00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:05,440
Speaker 2: nobody cares about anything. And I remember, you know, being

161
00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:08,680
Speaker 2: on that chainbus and looking at Yakama for the last time,

162
00:09:09,800 --> 00:09:13,840
Speaker 2: and you're wishing that I could tell my dad that

163
00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,920
Speaker 2: they were taking me or something, or wishing that my

164
00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,280
Speaker 2: dad could protect me for whatever was coming. It was

165
00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:24,319
Speaker 2: like like eight hours chain bus ride. I get to Shelton,

166
00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:27,960
Speaker 2: which is a receiving center and adult receiving center. It's

167
00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:33,200
Speaker 2: Washington Correction Center. I get there and the first thing

168
00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,760
Speaker 2: they do is they line you up. They put you

169
00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:38,400
Speaker 2: in these dog kettles. They look like dog kettles, and

170
00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:43,160
Speaker 2: you strip naked. But naked, mind you, I'm very turn sixteen.

171
00:09:43,520 --> 00:09:45,480
Speaker 2: I'm not comfortable being I don't know if anybody is,

172
00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:52,280
Speaker 2: but got stripped me and then there's at least twenty

173
00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,520
Speaker 2: to thirty guards lined up on one end, and you

174
00:09:55,520 --> 00:09:59,040
Speaker 2: have to get up naked, walk all the way across them,

175
00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,520
Speaker 2: and and they hand you your clothes and then you

176
00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,240
Speaker 2: put your it's not mean clothes like uh cross, put

177
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,679
Speaker 2: your covers on, but I do this little thing. Who

178
00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,120
Speaker 2: my covers on? And then they start to evaluate you.

179
00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:14,800
Speaker 2: They bring in one by one and who are here

180
00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,640
Speaker 2: and this and that, and so they look at me.

181
00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,600
Speaker 2: Typically everybody goes goes straight from there to go shave.

182
00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,800
Speaker 2: But I can't shave. I don't have anything. Yeah, I

183
00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:25,880
Speaker 2: don't have you know, I don't have no hair, you

184
00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:27,880
Speaker 2: know nothing. They look at me and they will laughing.

185
00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:31,280
Speaker 2: So all we got another one over here that can't shave,

186
00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:34,320
Speaker 2: and they just laugh like you, all of them start

187
00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,920
Speaker 2: to laugh. I'm naked, mind you'll nanking and I don't.

188
00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,000
Speaker 2: I'm just I don't know where to go over there,

189
00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:41,720
Speaker 2: you know. So they put me to me to go

190
00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:43,120
Speaker 2: to the cage, and then they give me my things

191
00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,480
Speaker 2: and they put it on. Nothing fits of course, shoe

192
00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:49,800
Speaker 2: side of nothing. They bring me to this little window

193
00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:51,760
Speaker 2: and they're they're soon as I'll walk up. It's the

194
00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,400
Speaker 2: slide she has her head down, but she's gonna ask

195
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,000
Speaker 2: me some medical questions. I guess that's the process. I

196
00:10:57,040 --> 00:10:58,280
Speaker 2: get out there and she puts her headup and she

197
00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,199
Speaker 2: looks at me, and her eyes freaking she's stocked. And

198
00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,560
Speaker 2: it was, oh my god, how old are you? And

199
00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:06,600
Speaker 2: I said, oh, I've just started sixteen. And she's got

200
00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:10,360
Speaker 2: all that that's so wrong. And then she proceeded to

201
00:11:10,360 --> 00:11:14,240
Speaker 2: ask me all these questions and and then they send

202
00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:16,160
Speaker 2: me on my way along with all the other adults.

203
00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,680
Speaker 2: I go into the h R three, which is a

204
00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:23,959
Speaker 2: receiving center, go straight into to a cell. The cell

205
00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:25,720
Speaker 2: they put me in was with two eighteen year olds,

206
00:11:26,360 --> 00:11:27,959
Speaker 2: which was good. I knew one of them actually was

207
00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:31,640
Speaker 2: FROMANCAM accounting. That relieved some of my invitings. But there

208
00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,640
Speaker 2: are two man cells and they throw me in there,

209
00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:39,400
Speaker 2: and I meant for even too, so they gave me

210
00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,120
Speaker 2: a mattress out there, and that's that's where that's where

211
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:46,319
Speaker 2: I first get out. Now and I don't know anything

212
00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:50,199
Speaker 2: about that chow. And when I'm in a child, I'm

213
00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,360
Speaker 2: walking in every even tail her just a freaking chock.

214
00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,600
Speaker 2: And so I'm walking into the child as soon as

215
00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,600
Speaker 2: I stepped into the child. There's like clamor was talking

216
00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,680
Speaker 2: and everybody just just stops talking and kind of just

217
00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:05,080
Speaker 2: looks at me. And I kind of like, and that's

218
00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:06,880
Speaker 2: the worst feeling in the world for someone who's kind

219
00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:08,800
Speaker 2: of an inch work like me, you know, And that's like,

220
00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,560
Speaker 2: oh God, and I don't know where even where to

221
00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:15,240
Speaker 2: see And then I s everybody just kind of just

222
00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:16,840
Speaker 2: like stares a minute. They all have this look in

223
00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:18,640
Speaker 2: their eyes like hell, was this kid doing in here?

224
00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:20,839
Speaker 2: You know, It's like that'll look like I thought it

225
00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:24,560
Speaker 2: was a joke or something. And they kind of just

226
00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:26,000
Speaker 2: slowly and then they kind of figured out and they

227
00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:27,480
Speaker 2: kind of realized what was going on, and then they

228
00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:29,240
Speaker 2: went back to talking. That I remember somebody waving me

229
00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:30,760
Speaker 2: down like this. I didn't know the person that was

230
00:12:30,800 --> 00:12:34,040
Speaker 2: a Mexican dude, and I kind of tried to ignore him,

231
00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,959
Speaker 2: and he goes telling me come here. So I went

232
00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,640
Speaker 2: over there and sat down, and he goes to Mexican.

233
00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:47,120
Speaker 2: See yeah, he goes, where are you from? So I

234
00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:51,240
Speaker 2: tell him at the Sunnyside and he goes, well, he said,

235
00:12:51,240 --> 00:12:57,840
Speaker 2: go to yard tomorrow and bring your paperwork. And I said,

236
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,920
Speaker 2: he said, but you have to be there, make sure

237
00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:05,000
Speaker 2: that you bring your paperwork. And he's what he's referring

238
00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:06,960
Speaker 2: to your court paperwork, your judgment of sentence. You know

239
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:08,760
Speaker 2: this stuff, the should what you're in prison for it.

240
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,240
Speaker 2: He goes be there and he sat in this kind

241
00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,680
Speaker 2: of tone where like it you know this, you better.

242
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,440
Speaker 2: The argum took your paperwork. So I said, uh, where's

243
00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,000
Speaker 2: the yard at He said, I'll let you know what there,

244
00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:26,800
Speaker 2: but said all right, and then it sleeves. And so

245
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,079
Speaker 2: I'm thinking the whole night like you know, you know

246
00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:31,640
Speaker 2: what you know, I don't know what that is about,

247
00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:34,000
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, So so I go, I take

248
00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:38,319
Speaker 2: my paperwork and I go out to the yard. He

249
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,520
Speaker 2: takes my paperwork and then you just needs and doesn't

250
00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:47,360
Speaker 2: say anything to me. And so I'm just slept walking

251
00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:49,000
Speaker 2: the yard and not knowing where to go or where

252
00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,120
Speaker 2: to walk and what the hell's gonna happen. And the

253
00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:56,440
Speaker 2: yard ends. I go back in. We have yard the

254
00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:58,880
Speaker 2: next day, and uh, he sees me out there. It

255
00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:01,400
Speaker 2: brings me by paperwork and says, he said, all right,

256
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,280
Speaker 2: you're you're good. What he was doing was it's called

257
00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:06,719
Speaker 2: paper checking. He was making sure that I wasn't a

258
00:14:06,800 --> 00:14:10,000
Speaker 2: sense of in there that I didn't tell anybody that

259
00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,480
Speaker 2: I didn't kill any women or I didn't kill any children,

260
00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,520
Speaker 2: basically making sure that I wasn't I was in there

261
00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:17,800
Speaker 2: for something that didn't have to do with those things,

262
00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:19,680
Speaker 2: because I had I been in there for any of

263
00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:23,720
Speaker 2: those things, I would have been targeted or killed in

264
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,040
Speaker 2: the next yard. And that's that's just the way it is.

265
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:29,720
Speaker 2: So he gets back by paper, he goes, all right,

266
00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,520
Speaker 2: So he starts to explain to me what is expected

267
00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,280
Speaker 2: to me as being part of the you know, being

268
00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,360
Speaker 2: the Mexican, and what they expected me in there. There's

269
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,560
Speaker 2: no asking if I'm gonna be part of this or nothing.

270
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,520
Speaker 2: You're already a part of this because you're a Mexican,

271
00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,440
Speaker 2: so you're gonna be able just whether you want to

272
00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:48,680
Speaker 2: or not, you know. So he explains the rules, and

273
00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,840
Speaker 2: the first thing says to me, and he says, he

274
00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,280
Speaker 2: says that somebody so much just steps on your shoe

275
00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,960
Speaker 2: and doesn't apologize immediately, you bring him out here to

276
00:14:58,000 --> 00:15:00,920
Speaker 2: this yard and you butcher him in front of everybody,

277
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,000
Speaker 2: and he goes. The reason you do that is to

278
00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,320
Speaker 2: make sure that everybody knows that they always stepped themselves

279
00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:11,600
Speaker 2: with you that this is what's going to happen to them,

280
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,200
Speaker 2: and if you don't do that, then we'll do that

281
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,160
Speaker 2: to you. And he goes the reason why is because

282
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,880
Speaker 2: if they think that you're weak, they're going to think

283
00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,280
Speaker 2: that we're weak, and then they're going to test us

284
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,560
Speaker 2: and we can't have that. And that was the beginning

285
00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:27,400
Speaker 2: of the adopted nation of what prison was going to

286
00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,120
Speaker 2: be able to buy. For me. There was no decision

287
00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:32,720
Speaker 2: of where I want to go or what's my it's

288
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:35,680
Speaker 2: not a democracy, what you're going to do, or this

289
00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:37,120
Speaker 2: is what's going to happen to you if you don't.

290
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,600
Speaker 2: And it was just that non stop indoctrination of how

291
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:48,400
Speaker 2: you're supposed to carry yourself. And the respect became the line,

292
00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,720
Speaker 2: and that line was any little thing, heady bins that

293
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:57,040
Speaker 2: were deemed disrespect would be meant force and brow for it.

294
00:15:58,320 --> 00:16:02,760
Speaker 2: And that was the beginning of what prison was going

295
00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:04,360
Speaker 2: to be like. And you know the horrors of all

296
00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:06,280
Speaker 2: the stuff, you know, the riots, all that stuff you

297
00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,800
Speaker 2: know took place and everything. And because I was in

298
00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,160
Speaker 2: for first to be a murder means that I get

299
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,200
Speaker 2: a ticket to go to the level four prison because

300
00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:20,920
Speaker 2: it's a murder case. Level fours is the second highest

301
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:24,440
Speaker 2: custody you can be in, meaning that everybody has committed

302
00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:26,760
Speaker 2: a murder or anything that they've ever done. That's when

303
00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:32,000
Speaker 2: they go gang member or whatever going there. And those

304
00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,760
Speaker 2: are the worst of the worst in the state of Washington,

305
00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:35,800
Speaker 2: and there was two of them back then in Washington

306
00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:41,120
Speaker 2: Penitentiary and Quantumba Correnge Center. Colombay had a nickname as

307
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:45,680
Speaker 2: Gladiator School, and that was my first mother prison. That's

308
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,800
Speaker 2: what they sent to me too. And because I came

309
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:52,440
Speaker 2: in at the juvenile the first six months day and

310
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:54,760
Speaker 2: the receiving something, that housed me with the adults. All

311
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,320
Speaker 2: of us is the adults. And then they passed the

312
00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,360
Speaker 2: law saying that they couldn't how juveniles with adults if

313
00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,400
Speaker 2: they're in an age of eighteen regardless. So they separated

314
00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:09,959
Speaker 2: us and kind of had our within the prison, our

315
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:11,879
Speaker 2: own area and all that stuff. And that lasted for

316
00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:13,840
Speaker 2: embe a year, and then I turned eighteen and then

317
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:17,520
Speaker 2: I was dumb straight into the close custody and Qualum

318
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:23,840
Speaker 2: Bay Correction Center, and that right there was that prison

319
00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,000
Speaker 2: was known for peckstabbings and all that kind of stuff,

320
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:28,720
Speaker 2: and they just you turn eighteen and there you go.

321
00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,280
Speaker 2: And I went right into it and didn't kind of know.

322
00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,719
Speaker 2: I knew the basics, but I didn't know really what

323
00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,440
Speaker 2: a close custody was like. That's a whole other level

324
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,840
Speaker 2: of lining. I was in the receiving center. That's pretty

325
00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,440
Speaker 2: small comparison to a level four prison. And that's when

326
00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,360
Speaker 2: everything became about race and then gang and even more

327
00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 2: so than it was in the receiving center, and the

328
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:58,560
Speaker 2: brutality of that place, the wars, the battles, and the

329
00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:00,560
Speaker 2: fact that I was already affiliate gang when I was

330
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,680
Speaker 2: out here, mant that I was affiliated with the gang

331
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,679
Speaker 2: within the prisons too, and that gang was that with

332
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:11,720
Speaker 2: another gang, and so everywhere I went, I was targeted

333
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,560
Speaker 2: by that gang, regardless of I was still part of

334
00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,399
Speaker 2: it or not. I mean, just the level of brutality

335
00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:22,719
Speaker 2: that you see or what society descends into when all

336
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:26,560
Speaker 2: the political correctness or all the morals seemed to be gone,

337
00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,560
Speaker 2: and what they morphed into. And that's what what the

338
00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:32,320
Speaker 2: level of prison was like for me. It was it

339
00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:37,800
Speaker 2: was brutal. There was no there was no pity, there

340
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:41,440
Speaker 2: was no second chances. There was just the way things

341
00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,919
Speaker 2: are and you far online or else, and to live

342
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,040
Speaker 2: under that kind of oppressive environment, to see the horrors

343
00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:52,120
Speaker 2: of what's going on that people can stab and then

344
00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,880
Speaker 2: beaten to nasu of their life, you know, and realizing

345
00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:56,520
Speaker 2: that that's where I had to live my life and

346
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,760
Speaker 2: that's where I had to be was hard in itself,

347
00:19:00,640 --> 00:19:03,560
Speaker 2: but in comparison to the mental struggle what was going on,

348
00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,560
Speaker 2: it was small, because a mental battle that was going

349
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,359
Speaker 2: on in my head was was far worse. Here. I

350
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:13,399
Speaker 2: was not only a kid, but in prison for somebody

351
00:19:13,480 --> 00:19:17,880
Speaker 2: and for everybody in trial. The day I was convicted,

352
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,520
Speaker 2: probably that's where it ended. That's where, you know, the

353
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:22,399
Speaker 2: tragedy ended right there for the family and all that

354
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,520
Speaker 2: kind of stuff. But for me, every day it replayed

355
00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:28,639
Speaker 2: itself because it's like for it for example, if something

356
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:30,880
Speaker 2: happens bad in your life, it happens usually at one

357
00:19:30,920 --> 00:19:33,480
Speaker 2: moment you recover whatever you get pass it, and that

358
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,399
Speaker 2: moment kind of goes far back. But for me, the

359
00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,680
Speaker 2: tragedy of my life was arrived with condition. That means

360
00:19:38,720 --> 00:19:41,199
Speaker 2: every second, every minute that I was in prison, it

361
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,520
Speaker 2: was like being convicted over and over and over again.

362
00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:49,119
Speaker 1: I understand what you're saying there because carrying that thinking,

363
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,359
Speaker 1: how the hell have I found myself here? I didn't

364
00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:55,240
Speaker 1: do the crime, and look look what I've got to

365
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:59,520
Speaker 1: do the survive? Did you to survive? And I get

366
00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,440
Speaker 1: a sense of what you're talking about in the prison,

367
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:03,640
Speaker 1: but you'd have to adopt that you couldn't have been

368
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,119
Speaker 1: You had to get out there and fight for your

369
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,400
Speaker 1: your respect. Did you like the person that turned you into?

370
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,919
Speaker 1: Because you would have had to become a person that

371
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:14,760
Speaker 1: survives in that environment.

372
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,719
Speaker 2: The struggle was my flight was was maintaining my ranity

373
00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,080
Speaker 2: in an environment that pressed me not to happen, an

374
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,040
Speaker 2: environment and environment that demanded me not to happen. How

375
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:32,640
Speaker 2: do I survive this place without being killed, without killing somebody,

376
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,960
Speaker 2: and with maintaining my morals as a person, as a

377
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,679
Speaker 2: dignified person, as a person does not google like that?

378
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,120
Speaker 2: That cannot be like that? How do I do that?

379
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,280
Speaker 2: Because if they see this of the weakness and the

380
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:48,760
Speaker 2: would hurted me. And that was the struggle. That was

381
00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:51,320
Speaker 2: part of the mental struggle, amongst all the other things,

382
00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,280
Speaker 2: you know, is not losing myself in that manness. And

383
00:20:55,359 --> 00:20:57,240
Speaker 2: the only way I did that is I had just

384
00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,840
Speaker 2: sent into the orgnance of what it was. And then

385
00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,680
Speaker 2: I got myself a seat and say, okay, I don't

386
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,199
Speaker 2: want to be that person. That's not me. How do

387
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 2: I get out of this? And in the moments of

388
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 2: those ugliness in it and seeing what prison was again,

389
00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 2: it was a decision. It was like, okay, so if

390
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 2: I'm not this person, then how do I survive in

391
00:21:24,800 --> 00:21:28,560
Speaker 2: this environment that's literally forcing me to be there or

392
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,439
Speaker 2: allow me to surviving this some type of person. And

393
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 2: some of it was luck, some of it was prayer,

394
00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:39,159
Speaker 2: you know, some of a lot of it was My

395
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,560
Speaker 2: dad reminded me of who I was as a person,

396
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:46,240
Speaker 2: reminded me that he was missed and I was loved

397
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,199
Speaker 2: and not to forget them. I remember he told me

398
00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 2: one time I had got into this fight and it

399
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,159
Speaker 2: was a brutal fight. There put me in with this

400
00:21:55,600 --> 00:22:00,720
Speaker 2: this mentally ill person and he was like fixed, fixed

401
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,000
Speaker 2: to and I just got out of I was in

402
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 2: isolation for four and a half years, so five years,

403
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,200
Speaker 2: and then they sent me to a level three, which

404
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 2: is the lower custod which is better. But they put

405
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 2: me a house, meaning with this mentally ill person. And

406
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,439
Speaker 2: I remember this guy that lived with him, and I

407
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 2: was in kind of a molding cell and he tells me.

408
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 2: He's like, hey, whatever you do, because I'm moving out

409
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 2: of the cell. That means I'm going to put you

410
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 2: on that cell that's on the sell open. Whatever you do,

411
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 2: don't go in that cell. So what do you mean?

412
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 2: He goes, Man, I'm telling you this guy, I'm just

413
00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 2: not a good person, bro, and just do whatever you

414
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,199
Speaker 2: can do. You know, don't go in there. Problem is

415
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,960
Speaker 2: that you can't decide where you go right, and you

416
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 2: can't go up to a guard and say, look, this

417
00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:46,679
Speaker 2: guy is this. I don't want to go in there

418
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 2: because then everybody's fell always weak, and then they just

419
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:50,800
Speaker 2: you know, and then you're in a bad place. So

420
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 2: you're stuck. So I go up and I talked to

421
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 2: the start and I say, look, there's a or if

422
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,720
Speaker 2: I wait and uh, one extra week in there, because

423
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 2: you know that way I can get you to sell.

424
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,239
Speaker 2: He's like, oh no, no, no, no, that can happen. So

425
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 2: you're going in that cell way you want to or not.

426
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 2: He said, but if you're good for thirty days, I'm

427
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: gonna to another son. I said, all right, there's nothing

428
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 2: I can do that's it. I can't argue with them

429
00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 2: and make things up, so they put me in that cell.

430
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 2: But sure enough, you know this guy was he never

431
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,360
Speaker 2: left the cell. He was like, he was really aggressive.

432
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,959
Speaker 2: He was a movie And when I first got in there,

433
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,439
Speaker 2: he seemed all right back and tell I've been in

434
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 2: prison by the time for a couple of years now,

435
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:36,000
Speaker 2: so I could understand. And one night I'm updrawing. I

436
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: got to finish out the car over doing this car

437
00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 2: for this person. And he just in the middle of night.

438
00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:44,679
Speaker 2: I had a little light on. He just jumped up

439
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 2: out of nowhere in the middle night, turned out the light,

440
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 2: turned out the big light, and then starts yelling at me,

441
00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 2: starts calling me names, and you keep I'm keeping him

442
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 2: up this and that, and there's something about the light,

443
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,680
Speaker 2: and I mean just the aggressiveness of this person. And

444
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,479
Speaker 2: I looked at him, I said, hey, all you had

445
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:02,600
Speaker 2: to do was tell me now to put it why.

446
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 2: I didn't know what's keeping you money because I wasn't

447
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 2: making any noise or nothing new. So mind you, the

448
00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,199
Speaker 2: years of indoctrination about respect and all that's already you know,

449
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:14,240
Speaker 2: it's all there. So the next day I feel some

450
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,120
Speaker 2: type of way about it. So I tell him, I said, hey, look,

451
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 2: if you have an issue, just let me know straight

452
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:21,200
Speaker 2: up in a respectful way. You don't have to get

453
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 2: up and that, and he hops up again get to

454
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 2: my face, but he's kind of a big dude, and

455
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 2: he because, well, you ain't gon to talk to me

456
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 2: and something like that, you know, And I end up

457
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 2: just turning my back and need anything. You gotta deal

458
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,480
Speaker 2: with this, you know. But I knew that it was over.

459
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 2: I knew that I was gonna be able to housing

460
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 2: that souf. And so I come back a little bit though,

461
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 2: I think it was the next day or something. I'm

462
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 2: looking for my glass. I can't find him from my head.

463
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,359
Speaker 2: This guy's get something because he's already acting weird. So

464
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 2: I asked him, and I knew by asking him he

465
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 2: was to react that way, and I was gonna I

466
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:55,200
Speaker 2: already have made decision that had come to my face again,

467
00:24:56,440 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 2: I'm not gonna do with it anything. So sure enough

468
00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 2: I asked him, gets on my face? Are fighting? And

469
00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,479
Speaker 2: it was almost to dad, you know. He ended up

470
00:25:07,480 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 2: having hitting weapon and stabbing our number of times and

471
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff, you know, And I fought,

472
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 2: and we end up going to the hole and I

473
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,520
Speaker 2: didn't get charged with the soft on top of already

474
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 2: w out in prisone forslam and I end up going

475
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,879
Speaker 2: to Boka encounter jail for him, And I remember my

476
00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 2: dad tells me. He says to me, when I'm in

477
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 2: the who's the visit me? And he said, look, I

478
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,480
Speaker 2: understand you surviving that place. I understand that. I know

479
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 2: you do. And he said, but don't forget that you're

480
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 2: in prison for something you didn't do. He said, everything

481
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: you're doing right now is you're going the opposite way.

482
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 2: You're living in that place. I said, you forgot and

483
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:52,719
Speaker 2: everything you're doing right now is going to keep you

484
00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 2: in that place. He said, if you if you keep

485
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,680
Speaker 2: on doing that, what happens when they prove you didn't

486
00:25:58,680 --> 00:25:59,959
Speaker 2: do it? They're not gonna believe it. Or you can

487
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 2: stuck in here on another charge for doing some off

488
00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:04,080
Speaker 2: the wall stuff and you're never getting out of prison.

489
00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 2: And he's telling me with emotion, and and I remember

490
00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: thinking about that, like like what am I doing? Yes,

491
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 2: I can. I have to survive, but I have to

492
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 2: remind myself that you know I'm in here for somebody

493
00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:21,160
Speaker 2: didn't do. And then if I want to go home,

494
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 2: I have to stay focused on that, you know, And

495
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 2: that kind of was a changing, you know, point in

496
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 2: my life. It just it made me reflect and think

497
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 2: about what I had to do and how much I'm

498
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 2: gonna have to suffer as a person in order just

499
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 2: to get into a place where I can focus on

500
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 2: myself and and focus on going home. And that was

501
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:45,639
Speaker 2: the other battle. Because I had already been online with

502
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 2: this gang. That means that they weren't gonna accept me

503
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 2: leaving it or saying that I don't want to be

504
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 2: a part of it. That's just what I'm gonna be.

505
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 2: And the minute I said then, I was probably gonna

506
00:26:56,600 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 2: be killed that night. And so has either this is

507
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 2: already you know, I've already been in the manness of prison.

508
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 2: I've been to a number of fights, all the stuff.

509
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 2: I spent already like nine and a half years in

510
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 2: isolation over all these things, and that in itself is

511
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 2: a whole another you know, mental issue. Meanwhile, during this

512
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,720
Speaker 2: entire process, I'm trying to you know, I'm writing letters,

513
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 2: you know, I'm saying I didn't do it, asking people

514
00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 2: for help. But I decided that think it was in

515
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 2: two thousand and thirteen. There, you know, I just I

516
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: wasn't going to live a slacknom right, And so then

517
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 2: became the process of going to a level for a

518
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 2: prison which I was going to go to, and letting

519
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 2: them know that I'm not going to be a part

520
00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: of this anymore. I'm not going to come in anymore

521
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 2: by the naxts and all that stuff, and it is

522
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 2: what it is, and whatever you want to do about that,

523
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 2: and do it. And I told him that, and not

524
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 2: in a direct way like that, because you know, I

525
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: wasn't trying to be killed that night, but I assume

526
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,159
Speaker 2: either way it was going to one dir't going to

527
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 2: come aster me one way another. And one of the

528
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:57,159
Speaker 2: guys said, he's like, oh, yeah, that's right, you know,

529
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: And they always say that, No, you're good, that's just

530
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,119
Speaker 2: what that's You're just going to get you next day.

531
00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 2: I mean. So I go back to my room, I

532
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 2: have my stuff all packed up, and the next yard

533
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 2: was the next day, and I could't sleep much that night,

534
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 2: said a few prayers and assume for sure that I

535
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 2: would either be killed or beaten with an inch of

536
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: my life because I didn't want to go in all

537
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 2: on line with their stuff. I went out the yard

538
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 2: next day, waited for it. It didn't come, nothing happened.

539
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, okay, well that it's going to

540
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 2: be even worse because they're preparing certain shanks. Because I

541
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 2: already knew the way person was. I knew they weren't

542
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 2: going to let that come. So another day goes by,

543
00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 2: nothing happened, a week was buy, nothing happens. So now

544
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: I'm steaking this isn't this is this isn't this. I

545
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 2: don't know what's going to happen. And I spent on

546
00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:51,360
Speaker 2: the level four person. I was out there with my gang.

547
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 2: It wasn't really my gang because I told him that

548
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 2: I want to be a part of it for almost

549
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 2: fourteen months and they actually never made a move on me,

550
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 2: and I couldn't really understand why. But I lived in

551
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 2: under shadow that it would come one day or every

552
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 2: day felt like it was going to be that day,

553
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 2: and it just never came. In mind you, it wasn't

554
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 2: because these individuals were scared and none of that either.

555
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 2: Are these an individual and killed people in other none

556
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 2: of them are in there for anything good, you know,

557
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 2: And someone been in prison for a number of years.

558
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: In another way it is, but they never did anything

559
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 2: to me. And then a Bible ride took place, a

560
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:27,680
Speaker 2: massive ride out in the yard. I was out there

561
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 2: wing it happened, and I was just pretty brutal. They

562
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:33,320
Speaker 2: were all involved. I didn't get involved, which is a

563
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 2: real no one. So they end up taking me home anyways,

564
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 2: because I'm affiliated with them, So I go anyways no

565
00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 2: matter what, I get in there, and they all know

566
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 2: them now that I wasn't involved into them. That's that's

567
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: something that they really came out. You know. I don't

568
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,239
Speaker 2: know if they assumed that, you know, if he said, well,

569
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 2: you'll get in any ways. You know, I don't know

570
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 2: what they assume. But and they told me, they said,

571
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 2: why didn't you get down and switch? Why didn't you

572
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 2: fight with us? And I told him straight. I said, look,

573
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 2: I giving you twenty three years of my life and

574
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 2: that's how long I was an Act Game member. He said, look,

575
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 2: I'm not giving you anymore. I made that clear. And

576
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 2: whatever you guys decided to do about that, I accept.

577
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,280
Speaker 2: And uh, when it was started, kind of you know,

578
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 2: to say something if you look it isn't I know

579
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 2: it's coming. You don't need to. I understand. He said,

580
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 2: all right, your ext dot exile means is basically, when

581
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 2: they see you're going to kill you. You know that's it.

582
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 2: And so I accept it, I said, is what it is.

583
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 2: But I told my dad, said, Dad, look, I left

584
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 2: all that stuff, and the next couple of years are

585
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 2: going to be really bad for me. But I told him,

586
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 2: you know, I'll survive. And my dad started crying. He

587
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 2: wasn't crying because he was fearful of what would happen

588
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 2: to me. He was crying because he was happy because

589
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 2: I finally left the thing that was going to keep

590
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 2: me imprison if I didn't let it go. Powerful, and

591
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 2: he says to me, he tells me, He says, look, me,

592
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 2: know that that's all you know in your entire life.

593
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:05,760
Speaker 2: And I know that those people fold you believe in

594
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 2: take care of your friends, but they never were. I've

595
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: told you that since you were a child. It's going

596
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 2: to be hard for you, he says you. We're gonna

597
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 2: have to suffer, probably a lot, but understand this, he

598
00:31:17,280 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 2: says you. You're free from that now. Now you have

599
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 2: a chance to move, and I'm proud of you this

600
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: first time. My father's ever told me was prep because

601
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: you know, you've saved your life for it today and

602
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter if they target them like that. I

603
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 2: understand it's going to be great, But I know he's shrunk.

604
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 2: But you made the right decision. And that's what I

605
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 2: needed to hear at that moment, because when that's all

606
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 2: you've ever known, when they're you're the facto family to

607
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,080
Speaker 2: a certain extent, and you think that they are friends

608
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:55,560
Speaker 2: and that they will understand, but when they won't and

609
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 2: they can't because that's just not there. The way it is,

610
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:01,720
Speaker 2: there's a part of you that feels wounded, so that

611
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 2: part of it feels as if you're abandoning something. And

612
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 2: this was twenty fifteen already, and then the prison system

613
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 2: had already in the administration, had already know they know everything.

614
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,959
Speaker 2: They knew I wasn't a part of the gang stuff anymore.

615
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 2: They knew I left it, and they said, you know, hey,

616
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 2: we understand that you're lucky. Stuff are you doing with

617
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 2: thennes City? You know, I said, okay, we're going to

618
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: send you to a level three, which is a lower custody,

619
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: which is almost a difference night and day between the

620
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:33,320
Speaker 2: close custodies and from that point on they sent me

621
00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 2: to a level three and it sent me to one

622
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,880
Speaker 2: of the best in the state, just a number of programs,

623
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 2: and that's when I can change mentally. And I had

624
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 2: to get rid of this this old facade, this mass

625
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 2: that I had word for nearly my entire life, and

626
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 2: then I could really focus on my freedom, you know,

627
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 2: trying to educate myself and starting to try to find

628
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,400
Speaker 2: a way to dig myself out of this hole that

629
00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 2: this wrongful commissioner, because the wrong condition, the mental affrica,

630
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 2: that is what pushed me back into this lifestyle, because

631
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 2: again I thought there was nothing. I don't care about anything,

632
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter to me. And in the beginning you

633
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 2: mentioned how how come you're not anger? And that stuff.

634
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 2: Know that that was angry right there and expressing himself

635
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,479
Speaker 2: through the violence of prison to the gang stuff. That's

636
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 2: what anger was. And it led to a point in

637
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 2: my life where I had to make a decision what

638
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 2: to choose, you know, and thankful that I have my

639
00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 2: dad there and a few other people that made that

640
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 2: choice when I did. And once I did that, I

641
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 2: began to work on myself and change became a part

642
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 2: of you know, my everyday life, and the boy of

643
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 2: the prison wasn't a part of that person I was in.

644
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 2: It was a different environment and that's where I could

645
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 2: I could lurish as a person. That's what I could

646
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 2: reflect and understand the choices I've made and how it

647
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 2: is I'm going to be able to go home with

648
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 2: you in what way to do it? And you know

649
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 2: through my entire sense. You know, I was writing letters,

650
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 2: I was working on my case, that kind of stuff.

651
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 2: But there was only so much focus when I'm always

652
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 2: trying to survive and I'd be killed or try to

653
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 2: make these these decisions that are going to keep from

654
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 2: going off into the deepen where wouldn't return. But the

655
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 2: last I always say the last ten years of my life,

656
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 2: my tenures in prison, well I'll say about eight years.

657
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:29,160
Speaker 2: Nine years was really enlightened. Moment is when I came

658
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 2: to understand by a true purpose and understanding what I

659
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:33,840
Speaker 2: needed to do in life.

660
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: What type of work did you do on yourself during

661
00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,719
Speaker 1: that period where you stepped away from the violence, What

662
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: type of programs and and how did you develop as

663
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:45,400
Speaker 1: a person during that period.

664
00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 2: Well, the first aspect was it is I uh, I

665
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,880
Speaker 2: became close to God, I became a Christian and that

666
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:58,400
Speaker 2: was the beginning of the transformation. They gave me the

667
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:02,319
Speaker 2: strength to actually me this, and but I worked on

668
00:35:02,320 --> 00:35:05,839
Speaker 2: the spiritual aspect of who I was, how I need

669
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: to live, prayer, you know, study, that kind of stuff

670
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 2: is really what gave me the strength, the inn strength.

671
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 2: And what came after that was was the physical transformation,

672
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 2: meaning that I had to rig myself of all that

673
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 2: prison was put on me. That means the mentality, those

674
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 2: are the things I had to target individually, and the anxiety,

675
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 2: you know, the frustration and the hatred with being in

676
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 2: prison for somebody could do because that the hatred was

677
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,200
Speaker 2: the root of everything of what happened to me, that

678
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 2: was driving me into this, you know, this lifestyle I

679
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 2: started focusing on. You know, there's such awareness classes called redemption.

680
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,879
Speaker 2: I started trying to understand the trauma where it came from.

681
00:35:46,160 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 2: I spent a lot of years of isolation. That also

682
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 2: wasn't a lightning moment too, because in those moments I

683
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 2: could reflect on my childhood from dealing with my mother

684
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: and that kind of stuff, and it's all tied in

685
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 2: together with THEO. If it all comes intertwined with all that,

686
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 2: and if I really wanted to free myself of that,

687
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:06,760
Speaker 2: preve myself of the anger, free myself of the hatred,

688
00:36:07,080 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 2: all that stuff, I had to start there. And it

689
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 2: was a mental batter. It was a literally little mental

690
00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 2: batter where I had to sit there and almost relive

691
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:18,319
Speaker 2: the moments, the traumatic movements of my life. I did

692
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 2: that through some of these programs I spoke about it,

693
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:21,919
Speaker 2: but also I spent a lot of time in the yards,

694
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,840
Speaker 2: walking and rowin and going back to those moments in

695
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 2: my life, the horrorble moments with my mother and those

696
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 2: kinds of things and reliving them until they had no

697
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 2: more strength. And some of it was tears, the pains

698
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 2: or why my mother did this or why these things

699
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 2: happened in my life, And the same thing with the

700
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,360
Speaker 2: rodful condition. I had to go back to the moment

701
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 2: and trial. I had to feel that pain and understand

702
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 2: it in order to move past it. And that was

703
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 2: the only way that I could free myself. And the

704
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 2: only way that I could do this farm was walking

705
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 2: through it. There was no other way. And then I

706
00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:55,680
Speaker 2: had to listen to it. I had to listen to

707
00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 2: the pain and the tears, that I was shading to

708
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,600
Speaker 2: really under stand, you know, the wizard that would come

709
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,279
Speaker 2: that would come from it, and it was about it

710
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 2: was I took you know, I took Tostmasters International Speech

711
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 2: of Class. I took a Supperware, a bunch of different

712
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 2: suf awareness classes, probably about fifteen twenty. When I took

713
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 2: everything there was. There was nothing proven to take more,

714
00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 2: but I did that with the genists of trying to change.

715
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 2: I needed that kind of understanding from other people that

716
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 2: deal with trauma. I needed to express the pain and

717
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 2: that right there was is what freed me from from

718
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 2: that cage of anger, austration, and the security and allowed

719
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 2: me to see what my te purpose was in life.

720
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:44,920
Speaker 1: Well, you're enlightenment that you experience through prison, like taking

721
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: on board all the opportunities that you had, you really

722
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 1: turn turned your your view of life and what you

723
00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: could do for yourself by the sounds of it, because

724
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 1: stepping away from the environment. And I don't think I've

725
00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,160
Speaker 1: ever been say quiet on the podcast, but the way

726
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 1: that the way that you're telling your story, I've just

727
00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: I forgot I'm doing a podcast. It's fascinating your journey

728
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: and what you've what you've been through in regards to

729
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,840
Speaker 1: getting the matter back before the courts? What was the

730
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 1: process there? How hard did you have to fight? And

731
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: that you said you were always writing letters?

732
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:18,280
Speaker 2: Did you get.

733
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:22,000
Speaker 1: People that supported you to campaign on your behalf?

734
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 2: Well, that that was a line pricess. I remember I

735
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 2: had it on when I was sitting in Qualumbay, when

736
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 2: I think I was twenty years old, and I was

737
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 2: beginning to stand then that this wasn't going to change,

738
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 2: that this was going to be you know, this is hereous.

739
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,760
Speaker 2: That's when I began to comprehend in what I was facing,

740
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 2: and that himself was a horror, you know, you know,

741
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 2: a horrible mem to deal with. And but I had

742
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:53,160
Speaker 2: watched The Shasha Redemption at all movies and there was

743
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 2: a moment in that. There's plenty of the moments that

744
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: movie that were pretty inspiring from him. But you know, Andy,

745
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:01,720
Speaker 2: he wanted to uh, he was well basically was bugging

746
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:06,759
Speaker 2: the legislator for money to build his library. And I

747
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,320
Speaker 2: remember when he first he wrote letters and they finally

748
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 2: responded to him after six years, and he said, well,

749
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 2: I'll write two letters a day, and that right there,

750
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,680
Speaker 2: for some reason popped in the heads like well, maybe

751
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 2: I should just bug people, you know, that's that's all

752
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 2: apps my voice. I mean, so I'm just gonna bug everybody.

753
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 2: And so I went to the law library. I found

754
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 2: addresses lawyers of organizations, and every week, two letters a

755
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 2: week I wrote, and I explained my case as best

756
00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:39,360
Speaker 2: as I could. At that time, I moved to that

757
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 2: I understood the law that could and I went to

758
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 2: the law library and that was my routine. Every single

759
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 2: every two weeks, I had a log of all the things,

760
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 2: and every single letter I got back said no, we

761
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 2: can't help you. And I even I wrote, you know,

762
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,800
Speaker 2: international organizations, all that stuff, and I wrote the Innocent

763
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 2: Project Northwest. They asked to end up taking my kids

764
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 2: kind of looking into it, but it was so hard

765
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,280
Speaker 2: for them because they were a part of the University

766
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 2: of Washington, but they didn't have a lot of funds

767
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 2: and it was hard for them. Eventually, I had two years.

768
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 2: If I was trying to find something, they couldn't dig

769
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 2: anything up. They just had a lack of resource and

770
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,320
Speaker 2: they had to drop my case. And those were blows

771
00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 2: that had to deal with it. I probably got a

772
00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 2: thousand notes before I got one. Yes, you know, in fact,

773
00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:26,719
Speaker 2: It was twenty years of those and one yes that

774
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,400
Speaker 2: end up lating to my generation. So it was just

775
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 2: letter after letter, and I remember how telling my dad,

776
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 2: you know, I'd be so enthusiastic about it, like, Dad,

777
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 2: I wrote this letter, you know, I'm going to do this.

778
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 2: And then my dad was like, oh, that's good, you

779
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:44,960
Speaker 2: keep doing it. And I remember, twenty years into that process.

780
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 2: I used to always tell my dad about these letters and.

781
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,839
Speaker 3: You would get happy and and then or I'll tell

782
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 3: them about the dream I had that I was home,

783
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 3: and he would get happier, and then I would speak

784
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 3: to him like I always spoke to him, like all Dad,

785
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 3: when I get out, and I would speak as about

786
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,359
Speaker 3: getting out the next day, and that seemed.

787
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 2: Good, you know, to encourage them and give him strength.

788
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,359
Speaker 2: But after twenty years it had a different shop draft

789
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 2: for that. It was a fact that I remember he

790
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 2: would look at me sometimes and he wouldn't say anything,

791
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:16,120
Speaker 2: but the look at his face would tell me my

792
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 2: son had to accept the bed. But it's never going

793
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 2: to change. He didn't say it, but my dad had

794
00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 2: already got to the point where he stopped believing everybody had.

795
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 2: I didn't like it. It's gonna happen. I know it's

796
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 2: gonna happen. I just kept writing letters. And in twenty

797
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 2: thirteen I watched a documentary called Paradise Lost the Westminphiter

798
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 2: three and it was an act deparate desperation. After I

799
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 2: seen that, as like, oh maybe Easterrect Prewson can help

800
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 2: and we write them on the doorstaing because says no.

801
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: So I wrote him, you know, as best I could,

802
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 2: and said everything about my case. And you know, seven

803
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 2: eight years passed. Again. I didn't here. I don't care.

804
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,120
Speaker 2: Mostly I don't hear a lot from see anybody, so

805
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 2: I'm used to it and I want to left all,

806
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 2: you know, all the stuff in my life, you know.

807
00:42:07,320 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 2: And I was at that level three. I was only

808
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,279
Speaker 2: there for ten months. I get a letter in the

809
00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 2: mount and uh. The letter in the mail says, oh,

810
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 2: we uh we found your letter that you have sitting

811
00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 2: in our mill room for six years unopened. Yeah, unopened,

812
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 2: and we are doing a documentary Innocent People in Prison,

813
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,560
Speaker 2: and we're really interested in the case. And I was

814
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 2: at first, I was like, this seems to be true.

815
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 2: I've been here before. I don't want to believe, so

816
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 2: call us, you know, here's our number anytime. So I

817
00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 2: got that letter, I went down to the prison phone

818
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 2: and called, and sure enough it was one of the

819
00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 2: one of the producers, her names now, and she just

820
00:42:51,280 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 2: an amazing woman and angel and herself, you know me.

821
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 2: And so I spoke to her and she's like, yeah,

822
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,560
Speaker 2: we she I really apologize, but your letter literally was

823
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 2: sitting there for six years unsaled, and we bowed it.

824
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 2: We're just moved by it, we're touched by We really

825
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:08,040
Speaker 2: want to look into your case. We're not saying we're

826
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 2: gonna take it, but this is what we have, what

827
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 2: we're working on. But she told me, she goes, look,

828
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you right now, if we find

829
00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,359
Speaker 2: out that you did this, we're going to rego that too.

830
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 2: By all means, look at it. You'll see. Yeah. And

831
00:43:23,640 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 2: that was the beginning process of change. But it took

832
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:28,960
Speaker 2: twenty years to get to that point. And it had

833
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 2: nothing to do with the course. See, my case had

834
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:35,760
Speaker 2: already been been decided. So three years after my case,

835
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 2: I filed them kill all that My lawyer father week

836
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,239
Speaker 2: ad kill. They threw that out right away. I didn't

837
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,399
Speaker 2: not understand the course. He didn't file the right paper

838
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 2: works when my director kill was dead by nineteen ninety nine.

839
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 2: I didn't learn all this until I went to the

840
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,919
Speaker 2: law library and figured it out, and then realized, I'm

841
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 2: sitting on something on nothing. I have nothing unless I'm

842
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,360
Speaker 2: digging something up, and how am I going to do

843
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: that from misplace? So every time I read in the

844
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,640
Speaker 2: law books and understood the law, I just realized another

845
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,320
Speaker 2: thing that they wouldn't help me, And so I turned

846
00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:10,359
Speaker 2: to writing because I knew to try to fight it

847
00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,400
Speaker 2: myself or even learn the process. When there's probably like

848
00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 2: a ten percent chance if that I can get my

849
00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 2: stuff back into courts without help. It's just I just

850
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:23,760
Speaker 2: had my time somewhere else. And so once they decided

851
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 2: that my case was when they owned that they were

852
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,920
Speaker 2: going to take, they didn't actually tell me. They just

853
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 2: ended up in Sunnyside with the film crew and then

854
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 2: told me all taking the case, which was, you know,

855
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 2: nerve racking. But at the same time I was like okay,

856
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,719
Speaker 2: and they the discovered those stood their investigation with. They

857
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 2: discovered the truth right away within about a month.

858
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 1: You know, there's some flatant things and if we just

859
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 1: break break down some of the k witnesses just say

860
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,880
Speaker 1: his girlfriend picked out your fighter after on the go

861
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:59,480
Speaker 1: and hip nicest. As I understand it, that's yeah, I

862
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:04,239
Speaker 1: hear in this country and as I understand it in

863
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 1: the US that that evidence is not to be relied

864
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:11,240
Speaker 1: upon them can't be presented as evidence. You take the statement,

865
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 1: then if you hypnotize someone, that's information, but it can't

866
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 1: be used as evidence. So I look at that. And

867
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:22,240
Speaker 1: then the vehicle was removed by the deceased girlfriend before

868
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 1: it have been processed by police. The police informant claimed

869
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: in the documentary this is a documentary you're talking about,

870
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: that he had lied when he identified you from photographs

871
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 1: that Detective Rivard had told him to like. In relation

872
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,879
Speaker 1: to the comments about Detective Revard, he strongly denied all

873
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 1: those allegations in the documentary. This is pretty heavy stuff.

874
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 1: So when this, when this was discovered, and when you

875
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: realize the significance of this, how did it make you feel?

876
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 1: Did it give you hope? Did you think, Okay, now

877
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: we're getting somewhere.

878
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,680
Speaker 2: Wells it had two films. You know, you had to remember,

879
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 2: up until that point, I didn't know that Reyboard had

880
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 2: except you. I didn't know that he had created this

881
00:46:04,440 --> 00:46:09,400
Speaker 2: whole thing. I assumed wrongly that it just happened. No

882
00:46:09,480 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 2: one was to blame, and for some reason, that was

883
00:46:11,480 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 2: easier for me to accept. But when they told me

884
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 2: what his informant came forward and this is what he

885
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 2: said happened, that he was paid the saviors am I.

886
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 2: It was a blow to me because just think of it.

887
00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:27,439
Speaker 2: When something happens to us and it's an accident, it's

888
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 2: thatt all, what just happens. But when you realize that

889
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,400
Speaker 2: it was intentional and as somebody deliberately did this for you,

890
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 2: then the question comes, you know, why why would you

891
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 2: do that to me? Or why? And then the anger

892
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,560
Speaker 2: and the frustration, you know, came boiling back and I

893
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 2: had to fight that back down. I had to release

894
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 2: that tune. So now there's someone to blame. For twenty

895
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 2: some years, there wasn't. It was just circumstance. It happens,

896
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 2: you know, an act of God, whatever you want to

897
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:59,359
Speaker 2: call it, I don't know. You now had a face

898
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,280
Speaker 2: to a cause it all. And that was another journey

899
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 2: of forgiveness right there in its own And so when

900
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 2: I heard that, there was that, and then there was

901
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 2: a relief. The relief came back. I already knew he

902
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,280
Speaker 2: was lying, but I'm so glad that he's coming forward

903
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 2: and saying what I know is already true. And I

904
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 2: didn't have anger towards him. I just wanted him to

905
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:25,439
Speaker 2: say the truth. That's it, you know. And the fact

906
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 2: that he did gave me hope, and I was like, Okay,

907
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,960
Speaker 2: now we got it. Now it's going to end. But

908
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 2: I didn't realize at the moment that that was just

909
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,000
Speaker 2: in the beginning, and the courts don't worked that way,

910
00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 2: you know. And at the same time that they were

911
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 2: doing documentary, my lawyer, my lawyer lawyer or my lawyer,

912
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 2: Laura my Shaver, you know, heard about my case and

913
00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:51,600
Speaker 2: decided to take my case and jumping to that point

914
00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 2: that had nobody it was just me, And so that

915
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 2: was another goal that happened. He told me sure, like, look,

916
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 2: I'm just starting a firm. I don't have a lot

917
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 2: of money, but I will not abandon you. I will

918
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 2: do everything I can in my power to prove your innocence.

919
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:10,879
Speaker 2: I believe, and even if I run out of money,

920
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 2: then we can fundraise together whatever I gotta do. We're

921
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 2: gonna do what I want to band it do and

922
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 2: to hear that, to hear that finally somebody believes me,

923
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 2: you know, you know that that that was a comforting

924
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 2: to me. And now she had to put all this

925
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 2: stuff that was in the documentary into a legal, you

926
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,719
Speaker 2: know format, meaning that she had to go interviews. You

927
00:48:34,719 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 2: can't rely on them. You can't just say, okay, here

928
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 2: it is. This was. She has to go and talk

929
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,239
Speaker 2: to him, she has to verify it, she go do

930
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 2: all this kind of stuff. Then once she gathers all

931
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 2: that stuff, puts it all together, she has to put

932
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,640
Speaker 2: it in the paper filed, and then that process starts.

933
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 2: In that process of the year years processing in the courts.

934
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 2: So and then and I kind of remember joking about this,

935
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 2: do we file it? We get it all done? Two years?

936
00:49:01,120 --> 00:49:04,800
Speaker 2: I was ready to go, and then COVID hits and

937
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:07,320
Speaker 2: shuts down the entire world, you know, and I'm thinking,

938
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 2: and I tell her, and I kind of laughing, and

939
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 2: I said, I said, what are the odds that you know,

940
00:49:15,520 --> 00:49:18,399
Speaker 2: I finally get all this stuff and a hundred year

941
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:22,680
Speaker 2: pandemic hits and that shuts down the very quarts and

942
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 2: and I was like, and you don't know at the

943
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 2: time how it's going to end or what this is

944
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:27,520
Speaker 2: the beginning of something that you know, I've seen movies

945
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 2: on and stuff. I was like, oh no, this is

946
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 2: not good, and and it was. It was it was

947
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 2: like it was comical to a certain extent, but it was

948
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 2: so serious. But then it was like and we had

949
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 2: to wait for two years, two years.

950
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 1: I like your attitude at that point in toirement, so

951
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: you've a lawful crawl and your might as will laugh and.

952
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 2: Just and we laughed with I told her and said,

953
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 2: what are the hots? How does that? And you know,

954
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 2: we kind of just la because we couldn't do anything

955
00:49:55,120 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 2: about it. We couldn't change it, we couldn't force them.

956
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 2: And she's like, I cannot believe. And I was just like,

957
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:04,320
Speaker 2: what is going on? It's second. I was like, well, okay,

958
00:50:05,080 --> 00:50:08,480
Speaker 2: so we have to wait and and then we get

959
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 2: into the court. We got all this stuff compiled, you know,

960
00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,160
Speaker 2: we got the informant gave us a statement said everything

961
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 2: was true, got it all the format, We built all

962
00:50:15,719 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 2: this stuff. And my lawyer was like, you know, she's

963
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 2: a lawyer. So she's like, I don't know if it's

964
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:21,120
Speaker 2: strong enough. You know, I don't know IF's strong And

965
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 2: it's hard because the court it's based on guilt. There's

966
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:29,359
Speaker 2: no the way the course system works, it's not you're

967
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:31,840
Speaker 2: innocent on that stuff once you're convicted. It's even worse

968
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:35,960
Speaker 2: so in the court of appeals, once you're found guilty,

969
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,200
Speaker 2: you can't even argue innocence. In the court of pills,

970
00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 2: you argue, my my mice, my rights were violate my

971
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 2: process right, Violet, because this happened in trial, and it's

972
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 2: not get it for a trial. That's how you have

973
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 2: to argue. Forget the fact that they don't even care.

974
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:51,759
Speaker 1: That's a very good way of breaking it down because

975
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:56,400
Speaker 1: it's so complex the appeals courts. But the way that

976
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 1: you just described it, that's right. They're not they're not

977
00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 1: even interested where your guilty here is. And that that

978
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,040
Speaker 1: in itself is frustrating too, isn't the court system. You

979
00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 1: think they're there to find the truth, But it's not

980
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,280
Speaker 1: really about that. It's about this technicality.

981
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 2: Yeah and so. And then on top of that, when

982
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 2: you appeal that to the to the state Supreme Court,

983
00:51:18,719 --> 00:51:21,319
Speaker 2: now you're arguing that the court is appealed violating your

984
00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 2: due process because of this. It's the whole totally definition

985
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 2: and it's like, so that's the process, right. So once

986
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:31,799
Speaker 2: we get everything together, we decide, okay, we can file

987
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 2: it as a petition directly in Quarter of Appeals that's

988
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 2: going to drag it out for a long time. We

989
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,560
Speaker 2: can file it to the court, the trial court, but

990
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:40,760
Speaker 2: we're found at the Yakama County, which is a county

991
00:51:40,760 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 2: I came from. And those judges don't give a damn

992
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 2: line nothing. They're biased, not all of them are. Sure,

993
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 2: there's some good judges, but there's a higher percentages that

994
00:51:50,320 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 2: probably think in a certain way. And so I was like,

995
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:54,560
Speaker 2: she's like, well, how you want to do this? And

996
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 2: I understood now because I been reading them on it.

997
00:51:56,480 --> 00:52:00,320
Speaker 2: And I said, well, I said, you know, I'm twenty

998
00:52:00,320 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 2: some years end of this. You know what I mean.

999
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:04,799
Speaker 2: It's I don't want to wait anywhere. Let's just file

1000
00:52:04,840 --> 00:52:08,480
Speaker 2: it directed to the trial court and he can roll

1001
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 2: on it. And then he kicks it up as a

1002
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:12,759
Speaker 2: PRP and so beat we took this shot. So she

1003
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:16,240
Speaker 2: files it and we must have got the worst judge

1004
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 2: ever and he's been there for a long time, and

1005
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:26,160
Speaker 2: so we but the one thing that gave us hopes

1006
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 2: when we fouled it typically the trials, and this is

1007
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 2: typical strategy of the trial, just they won't touch it

1008
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 2: because if they touch it, then they have to follow

1009
00:52:34,680 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 2: the rules of a pellet, which gives us string. You know,

1010
00:52:38,560 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 2: it's a whole it's a whole weird thing. It's hard

1011
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 2: to explain, but so we file it and then usually

1012
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 2: they'll just kick it up as a PRP and then

1013
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 2: to go to the guard fields and then we're fighting

1014
00:52:46,719 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 2: the quarter pills. But he decides, for whatever reason to

1015
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 2: hear it, which gave us hope. Well, he's hearing it

1016
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 2: because he sees something. Then that means, you know, he's

1017
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,160
Speaker 2: gonna return it, but he's gonna do something. He wouldn't

1018
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:58,960
Speaker 2: have accepted it because he's smarter than that, you know,

1019
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,000
Speaker 2: I mean, he wouldn't just give me. Because after this,

1020
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,799
Speaker 2: this became a direct appeal, now became something stronger than

1021
00:53:03,840 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 2: just the pr and P or personal restraining petition. So

1022
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 2: we gave us hope. So we have our first fearing

1023
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:14,640
Speaker 2: on it. This is after COVID, after two years of

1024
00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 2: COVID started dying down and opening up. Everything is still

1025
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 2: kind of you know, zoom and all that kind of stuff.

1026
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 2: But and so we getting there. And as soon as

1027
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:25,839
Speaker 2: we get that first, you know, he start to talk

1028
00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 2: and it's we can tell anyway, it's not good. He

1029
00:53:28,080 --> 00:53:30,680
Speaker 2: got the prosecuttorney. He's kind of just chill. He's got

1030
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 2: his legs off, kicked up on the thing. And the

1031
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 2: way he's talking and arguing, like it almost seems like

1032
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,240
Speaker 2: he's already knows Sin said. And he's not even worried,

1033
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 2: you know. Meanwhile, he's attacking everything we're doing. All well,

1034
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 2: I don't know about that. He kept saying, over and over, Oh,

1035
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 2: he's been in for twenty five years. You think you

1036
00:53:45,080 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 2: think it matters now? And I was like, God, those

1037
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:48,320
Speaker 2: are the worst things you want to hear, because you

1038
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,800
Speaker 2: already know. It's like it don't matter, you know. I

1039
00:53:51,560 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 2: you know, I'm in fifty thousand cases I brought through

1040
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:55,960
Speaker 2: here in twenty five years, and you want me to

1041
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 2: just to overturn it. And he's like, and he's attacking

1042
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 2: my mind, my lords, well, you know, and he goes,

1043
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:04,360
Speaker 2: first of all, the media is fake news, and I

1044
00:54:04,440 --> 00:54:06,520
Speaker 2: was like, oh god, he did not just say that,

1045
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:08,719
Speaker 2: you know what I mean? And and and we don't

1046
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 2: know it just because he had a documentary and I

1047
00:54:10,680 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 2: was like, oh god, he's not even arguing the fat

1048
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:15,759
Speaker 2: he's not even looking at him, and it's just all bad.

1049
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 2: And my lawyer knows it, and uh, well, we want

1050
00:54:19,040 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 2: subpoenify deny, we want to call the we want to

1051
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:27,360
Speaker 2: call the the cop up or the police officer. We

1052
00:54:27,480 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 2: want to subpoena and Branda, Deny, deny, Din and I

1053
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,320
Speaker 2: and uh and then my lord's actually know why, she

1054
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,120
Speaker 2: goes second time, I'm just gonna file on the quart

1055
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 2: of the pails. And he looks at her and he says,

1056
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 2: my first my lawyer goes, well, you realize you have

1057
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:44,759
Speaker 2: to follow why did you accept this case? That means

1058
00:54:44,760 --> 00:54:46,840
Speaker 2: you have to follow the rules of Kelly, you know.

1059
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,359
Speaker 2: And he's like, well, I only accept this case because

1060
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 2: it looked like he worked really hard on it in

1061
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 2: that condescendi voice. And my lord's, oh, my lords.

1062
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 1: I'm getting I'm getting angry listening your behalf. Yeah, frustrated.

1063
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 2: My lawyers are all females too. There there, So you

1064
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:04,560
Speaker 2: got the instant product that jumped on a few years later.

1065
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 2: And they're both from Kate and and Alwa, they're both males.

1066
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 2: And then you have shared as a female right and

1067
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 2: he's just like being condescending to them. You know, well

1068
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:15,920
Speaker 2: it looks like you look, you worked really hard on

1069
00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 2: it and in this and that, and my lawd's like

1070
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:19,640
Speaker 2: she getting mad and she's pissed if can see it.

1071
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:21,879
Speaker 2: And he don't even acknowledge me. He won't even look

1072
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 2: at me. I'm not on zooming. He won't even under

1073
00:55:24,040 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 2: stare at me. And he goes, yeah, I'm not gonna

1074
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 2: that's not gonna he's not gonna deny, and then he

1075
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 2: goes the only way I allow that that that police

1076
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,800
Speaker 2: officer to be a question is if he says he

1077
00:55:34,880 --> 00:55:37,040
Speaker 2: wants to and then depression like, oh he doesn't want to,

1078
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 2: and like okay, well then it's denied them and said what,

1079
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 2: oh you know what, well, I'm just gonna forget all this.

1080
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,400
Speaker 2: We're just gonna go we know you're cana roll against us,

1081
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:49,360
Speaker 2: and and so we're gonna just appeal your decision. And

1082
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 2: he goes, I don't really think that the Court of

1083
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:52,919
Speaker 2: Appeals are gonna care as much as you think they will.

1084
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:55,839
Speaker 2: It says that directly to my lorry, and so right

1085
00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 2: there it's oh, my lawyers like she was so mad.

1086
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 2: She's like she didn't. I couldn't call it over for

1087
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:03,359
Speaker 2: like two weeks should have come sorrow and so pissed off.

1088
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 2: So that means now it's going to take another year, right,

1089
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 2: So we filed an appealed his decision to the Court

1090
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,919
Speaker 2: of Appills. So our finger crossing the port of the pills.

1091
00:56:15,000 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 2: We're having oral ordinance and and we're we're more hopeful

1092
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 2: on the Court of Appills because they're out of Gakima

1093
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:27,840
Speaker 2: County and they're pulls from different parts of the state,

1094
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 2: and so they're more liable, they're more reliable to look

1095
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:35,200
Speaker 2: at something and have a political you know, agenda and

1096
00:56:35,239 --> 00:56:38,839
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff, you know. So and mine is like, well,

1097
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:41,840
Speaker 2: we know, we're going to see how it goes. And

1098
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:43,920
Speaker 2: so we did. We have our old arguments, and I

1099
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 2: think what was was one of the good signs of

1100
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 2: the oral argument with is that they were having it

1101
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 2: at actually, uh, they're having the actual court at a

1102
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 2: at a at a school auditorium and their students that

1103
00:56:58,960 --> 00:57:02,399
Speaker 2: are watching how they process skulls and everything. For whatever reason,

1104
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:03,879
Speaker 2: that gave me hope. I was like, Okay, now they're

1105
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 2: gona have to be you know, exact, you know, because

1106
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 2: they're trying to show the top of the kids. So

1107
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:10,879
Speaker 2: we get in there, it starts going and here comes

1108
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 2: to prosecurity with the blame arguments that don't even make

1109
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 2: any sense, and so he starts out as like, whoa,

1110
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:20,120
Speaker 2: I would tell the course not to believe this informant.

1111
00:57:20,160 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 2: He's a liar, he's this, and just goes on this

1112
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 2: ran about this informant, you know, just tear one alse

1113
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:27,680
Speaker 2: kind of stuff, right, he's lying, he's making So the

1114
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:30,280
Speaker 2: judge goes, so you hold hold on, let me, let me,

1115
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:34,280
Speaker 2: let me, let me stop you right there. So are

1116
00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 2: you telling me or he goes, don't you think it's

1117
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:42,440
Speaker 2: a little ironic that one of your starr informants that

1118
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 2: you argue so much in the course that we accept

1119
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 2: this testimon Now you're telling us that he's a liar?

1120
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:50,200
Speaker 2: And he goes, well, no, I don't think it's ironic.

1121
00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 2: He's no, it's it's kind of right. Or he goes,

1122
00:57:51,920 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 2: are you telling me that? Hey goes, I find it

1123
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:57,280
Speaker 2: ironic and that right there. I was like, okay, okay,

1124
00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 2: that's a good sign. And he goes. He goes, he goes, oh, okay,

1125
00:58:00,600 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 2: well let me stop you again. He stops him again

1126
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:03,520
Speaker 2: in its middle of this rand, he goes, so you're

1127
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:07,720
Speaker 2: telling me that he started being a liar or committing

1128
00:58:07,760 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 2: all these felonies after he testified in the house case.

1129
00:58:11,520 --> 00:58:13,240
Speaker 2: And he goes, yeah, that's all I'm saying. He goes,

1130
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:17,240
Speaker 2: he goes, no, No, that's that's about what happened, because

1131
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 2: I got it right here. This is ninety two, this

1132
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 2: is ninety three, and my Lord had anticipated all this.

1133
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:24,919
Speaker 2: So she named every single thing you've ever did wrong.

1134
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:27,240
Speaker 2: So he goes, yeah, he just throws He goes, yeah,

1135
00:58:27,240 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 2: that's no. This guy was already this person prior to

1136
00:58:31,240 --> 00:58:32,800
Speaker 2: you getting them. So how are you gonna tell me

1137
00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:35,320
Speaker 2: now not to believe him? And I was supposed to

1138
00:58:35,360 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 2: believe him then, and he's like, and he couldn't. It

1139
00:58:40,280 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 2: was so he was basically arguing, so he just switched on.

1140
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:44,720
Speaker 2: He was like, well, it's been twenty five you get't

1141
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,080
Speaker 2: even answer. It's been twenty five years, and this and

1142
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 2: that and that and that, and then another judge jumps

1143
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 2: in and goes, hold on, hold, So because it's been

1144
00:58:53,040 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 2: twenty five years, we shouldn't accept that this guy might

1145
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 2: be innocent. We should just forget about that? Is that

1146
00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:02,840
Speaker 2: what you're saying to me right now, Well, no, that's

1147
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:04,760
Speaker 2: not you know, that's exactly what you're telling me. You're

1148
00:59:04,760 --> 00:59:06,800
Speaker 2: saying because there's twenty five years and it doesn't matter

1149
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:08,680
Speaker 2: what he produces. And he goes, that's not the way

1150
00:59:08,720 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 2: the courts work. And then I was like, Okay, we're

1151
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 2: getting somewhere. Now. This is getting kind of good, you know.

1152
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:17,240
Speaker 2: So they challenge him all this stuff, you know, and

1153
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:24,400
Speaker 2: then they go so the truck right was was you know, impounded,

1154
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:26,000
Speaker 2: and then they didn't even get to look at it

1155
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 2: because she went forty and after that or and then

1156
00:59:30,160 --> 00:59:32,760
Speaker 2: she was charged with you know, random and criminal assistance

1157
00:59:32,760 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 2: and he couldn't explain it. Oh, you know, so they

1158
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:38,760
Speaker 2: were tripping him up on all these things. And then

1159
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 2: so it was real hopeful, and I was like, Okay,

1160
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:43,600
Speaker 2: we're getting somewhere now. Now they're kind of seeing the

1161
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:46,840
Speaker 2: obviousist of it, you know, and so he goes, there

1162
00:59:46,920 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 2: was one of the thing. He so the lady at

1163
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:53,080
Speaker 2: the end of it, one of the judges goes, she goes, right,

1164
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:58,439
Speaker 2: she was telling my lawyer, does saw us know about

1165
00:59:58,440 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 2: the juvenile bill?

1166
00:59:59,160 --> 00:59:59,280
Speaker 1: Right?

1167
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 2: And the juvenile Bill basically states that have you been

1168
01:00:02,080 --> 01:00:04,160
Speaker 2: in prison. If you're convicted on the age of eighteen

1169
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 2: of any crime and we're sentenced to more than twenty years,

1170
01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 2: that you're eligible for grow after twenty years. And basically

1171
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter to have to release you, and you

1172
01:00:16,960 --> 01:00:18,919
Speaker 2: can also file on it because the laws are changed

1173
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:20,960
Speaker 2: on that stuff. And she was, does sell us know

1174
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:26,280
Speaker 2: about this? And my lawyer was yeah, and they kept

1175
01:00:26,280 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 2: bringing that up. And the reason why my lawyer says, well,

1176
01:00:31,800 --> 01:00:34,919
Speaker 2: I didn't file on that is because it's all about

1177
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:38,360
Speaker 2: culpability and when you when you, when you even if

1178
01:00:38,360 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 2: you go to if you go if I go to

1179
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:42,720
Speaker 2: grow here, they expect you to sit in there and

1180
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 2: say I'm sorry for this, I'm sorry for that. I

1181
01:00:45,280 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 2: couldn't do that because I didn't come into crime, and

1182
01:00:47,680 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 2: I wouldn't file. My Lord's like, look, we can file that,

1183
01:00:49,640 --> 01:00:51,240
Speaker 2: we can argue you know you were young, it doesn't matter.

1184
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 2: Why No, no, not so that that muddy's the water.

1185
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,960
Speaker 2: I don't want to file on that. There was probably

1186
01:00:57,000 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 2: a big chance that I would have been released if

1187
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 2: I had just filed him. I could, I'm not doing that.

1188
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 2: I don't care. It's either the exonerator or I'll stay

1189
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:08,240
Speaker 2: in here. I'm not going to sit there. And I said,

1190
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:10,240
Speaker 2: how am I going to go to a judge and

1191
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:12,720
Speaker 2: ask for leaning scene on a murder I didn't commit.

1192
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 2: I mean, on principle alone, I can't do that. If

1193
01:01:16,760 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 2: I guy spend the next next oh it's thirty years,

1194
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:22,000
Speaker 2: and then so be it. I'm not going to that's

1195
01:01:22,040 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 2: not going to happen.

1196
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 1: Full full credit, full credit to you there, Like the

1197
01:01:26,720 --> 01:01:29,560
Speaker 1: I can understand the temptation, but the integrity that you

1198
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:32,959
Speaker 1: show and the belief in your innocence of not doing

1199
01:01:33,000 --> 01:01:36,760
Speaker 1: that because the hypocrisy of going there showing contrition to

1200
01:01:36,840 --> 01:01:39,720
Speaker 1: a parole board so you can get out when you've

1201
01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:42,400
Speaker 1: been saying for your whole whole life that I haven't

1202
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 1: done this. So that's gatsy. I'm just saying gutsy. But

1203
01:01:46,680 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 1: I understand where you're coming from and the type of

1204
01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 1: person you are to go down that path.

1205
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:54,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It was. It was hard and easy

1206
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 2: to just divide at the same time.

1207
01:01:56,960 --> 01:01:57,280
Speaker 1: It was.

1208
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:02,720
Speaker 2: Hardness sounds because you know, I don't know what's gonna happen.

1209
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:04,880
Speaker 2: I could lose my father, I could lose you know this, man,

1210
01:02:04,880 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 2: I don't know what's gonna happen. But the second part

1211
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:10,040
Speaker 2: is like, I can't do that because in the sense

1212
01:02:10,080 --> 01:02:13,040
Speaker 2: I'd be justifying everything they did, even if it even

1213
01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:15,000
Speaker 2: if it was a little I can't can't do it.

1214
01:02:15,080 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 2: I accepted it, and my lawyer was like, she's doing

1215
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:21,000
Speaker 2: the same thing. She's like, she's like, yeah, you know,

1216
01:02:21,760 --> 01:02:24,400
Speaker 2: I respect it, you know, but it's she goes, She's

1217
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:26,880
Speaker 2: just like, okay, nohing no. That means I said I can't.

1218
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:28,600
Speaker 2: I won't do it. So we left that around. He

1219
01:02:28,600 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 2: wouldn't argue that. So what is like six seven months

1220
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:37,960
Speaker 2: go by? My lord, uh commed you and I just

1221
01:02:38,040 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 2: felt im good about that. I called her. She's like,

1222
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:41,880
Speaker 2: they overturned it. They didn't return this thing they gave

1223
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:44,920
Speaker 2: us everything has Not only did they overturn it, but

1224
01:02:45,000 --> 01:02:48,400
Speaker 2: they scolded dis judge. You know. I mean, finally we

1225
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 2: got this is a victory for nothing, but twenty plus

1226
01:02:51,360 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 2: years of Massa's this is a victory. So we go

1227
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 2: back with this new power and everything, and we're stoked

1228
01:02:57,760 --> 01:02:59,200
Speaker 2: and we set the hearing. Now they got a deadline

1229
01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:00,880
Speaker 2: to do it by September. They can't go past them,

1230
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:02,280
Speaker 2: and they can't drag it out. They have to do it.

1231
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:06,400
Speaker 2: So we have our first year in the grant us

1232
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 2: everything they had and now the cop had to come

1233
01:03:08,320 --> 01:03:12,520
Speaker 2: no matter what. And then freely gives up there and

1234
01:03:12,840 --> 01:03:17,200
Speaker 2: every lineup that I remember, I remember. So the informer

1235
01:03:17,240 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 2: gets up there and just lays it out. I lied

1236
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:25,360
Speaker 2: about because he told me to lie. He paid me

1237
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 2: to do it. He gave me money to go look

1238
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 2: for him. I found him. He didn't say anything. I

1239
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:32,480
Speaker 2: told him that, and he didn't care. He said, I'm

1240
01:03:32,480 --> 01:03:36,360
Speaker 2: gonna get this this this guy, and and he didn't

1241
01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:38,120
Speaker 2: pay me direct. He paid me to hide it under

1242
01:03:38,240 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 2: on the different payments. I'm after it. I told him

1243
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:43,560
Speaker 2: I wouldn't do it, and he ended up put me

1244
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 2: in jail for it and making up some other stuff.

1245
01:03:46,800 --> 01:03:50,240
Speaker 2: He paid me the drugs. And this is beyond my

1246
01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:53,000
Speaker 2: my conscious. I sent a kid to PRISM something to

1247
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 2: do and the judge, she goes, I'm gonna bly her resents.

1248
01:03:58,440 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 2: So my lawyer she goes, uh, they're gonna talk to

1249
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:06,240
Speaker 2: me tomorrow, so call me. Ten minutes before quarter. I said,

1250
01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:10,520
Speaker 2: all right. I didn't have no sleep at all. My dad.

1251
01:04:10,600 --> 01:04:11,920
Speaker 2: I talked to my dad, but I was crying on

1252
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 2: the phone. He's like, I want to believe, but I

1253
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:14,800
Speaker 2: don't know, you know, and it's like I don't worry

1254
01:04:14,800 --> 01:04:19,280
Speaker 2: about those, you know. Whatever happens happened. So I called

1255
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:21,600
Speaker 2: my layd at ten minutes. I could hear it in

1256
01:04:21,680 --> 01:04:26,320
Speaker 2: her voice. She said, it's over. I said, wait, you

1257
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:33,920
Speaker 2: meaning it's over. She said, they're gonna vacated condition, dismiss

1258
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 2: the charges against you with prejudice, and order your immediate release.

1259
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 2: I said, whoa what? So he says it again, right,

1260
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:44,560
Speaker 2: and she goes, it's over. I'll see you ten minutes.

1261
01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 2: And so I get up and I had to I'm

1262
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:49,640
Speaker 2: going to court, I mean my cell at that time

1263
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:51,680
Speaker 2: when I called, and I had the court and so

1264
01:04:51,800 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 2: along the way. Mind you, almost all the guards had

1265
01:04:55,320 --> 01:04:58,680
Speaker 2: seen the documentary and most of them are really sympathetic.

1266
01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:00,960
Speaker 2: Almost all of them are. They're always asking when you

1267
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 2: get now, I can believe this has been five years since,

1268
01:05:02,840 --> 01:05:05,560
Speaker 2: you know, it came out whatever, And I'm telling them,

1269
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 2: I said, look, I think i's gonna grown here we're

1270
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:11,800
Speaker 2: talking about and I'm serious. And they were just high

1271
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:14,160
Speaker 2: fiving me, like oh okay. So I'm going up there

1272
01:05:14,160 --> 01:05:18,480
Speaker 2: telling everybody. I head over to the court. It's it's

1273
01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:20,040
Speaker 2: in the main person. So I go out there and

1274
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 2: go into the zoom mean and uh, the one of

1275
01:05:23,320 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 2: the one of the staff that worked there, she's the

1276
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:27,360
Speaker 2: legal secretary, and she comes in. She goes, hey, I

1277
01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:29,840
Speaker 2: just watched doc commentary last night. Oh my god, that's horrible.

1278
01:05:29,840 --> 01:05:31,280
Speaker 2: And I said, I just got to evaluated. What do

1279
01:05:31,320 --> 01:05:34,080
Speaker 2: you mean? I said, well, I'm gonna go to court really,

1280
01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 2: And so I go in there. I get in there

1281
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 2: and for all they said, he goes, so you gotta

1282
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:42,080
Speaker 2: She goes, so you want to answer order, right, because yeah,

1283
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:46,560
Speaker 2: I just want to vacate order to vacate the conviction,

1284
01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:50,720
Speaker 2: dispised charging and SIS orders mejor police. And then the

1285
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:52,400
Speaker 2: judge looks at my lawyer. He goes, you got anything

1286
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:53,840
Speaker 2: to guess that, and she's like no, And then she

1287
01:05:53,880 --> 01:05:56,960
Speaker 2: looks at me and she goes, well, Mirsallas, it's a

1288
01:05:57,400 --> 01:05:59,760
Speaker 2: lots of change out there, but I think you'll do

1289
01:05:59,800 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 2: real good. And so she entered the order and ordered

1290
01:06:02,160 --> 01:06:03,640
Speaker 2: my immediate release. So she looks at she but I

1291
01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 2: want them to release now. And so I get up

1292
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:12,920
Speaker 2: and my family cheering in the background. I don't have

1293
01:06:13,000 --> 01:06:14,680
Speaker 2: time to my talking lord. We think it's going to

1294
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:16,080
Speaker 2: take a couple of weeks. We don't know how the

1295
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:18,680
Speaker 2: paper's gonna work. So so I get up my head

1296
01:06:18,720 --> 01:06:20,560
Speaker 2: out and I'm just the happiest person every you know,

1297
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:23,560
Speaker 2: and I'm telling everybody, hey, I've got exaggerary I'm going.

1298
01:06:23,840 --> 01:06:27,600
Speaker 2: I don't know where I'm going on. And so I

1299
01:06:27,760 --> 01:06:29,640
Speaker 2: know all the staff. They're really good because I work

1300
01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:31,080
Speaker 2: with them with a bunch of programs I did in prison,

1301
01:06:31,120 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff, and so they were all

1302
01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 2: super happy and excited. And there's these two that I

1303
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:38,760
Speaker 2: work with a bunch of programs. I emailed them in

1304
01:06:38,800 --> 01:06:40,560
Speaker 2: this little thing that they have and yes, of Dad,

1305
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 2: when I just started tonnerate, you can come, you know,

1306
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:44,920
Speaker 2: come talk to before I lead. You know, I think

1307
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:47,880
Speaker 2: it's gonna be a shoe days. So I'm in my

1308
01:06:48,040 --> 01:06:51,480
Speaker 2: room and they come up with the inner call and

1309
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:55,000
Speaker 2: they say, well, no, no, those two people that have

1310
01:06:55,080 --> 01:06:56,760
Speaker 2: to work with come into my room and to myselves.

1311
01:06:57,240 --> 01:06:58,920
Speaker 2: I'm in a level two now. Also because I'm so

1312
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:01,040
Speaker 2: close with my release, I don't four years. And so

1313
01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:04,600
Speaker 2: they come in they're like they hear about it, and

1314
01:07:04,640 --> 01:07:07,760
Speaker 2: they're just so happy and everything. And they have watched

1315
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:09,520
Speaker 2: the urinies that I got there and everything and that,

1316
01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:12,160
Speaker 2: and then not even I think it was like an

1317
01:07:12,200 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 2: hour later, they come up with the intercom and they say, so,

1318
01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 2: pack your stuff up and go laundry. And then they

1319
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 2: come in with this thing. They're like, you're to go

1320
01:07:19,200 --> 01:07:21,600
Speaker 2: pack yourself and me and my me and my roommate.

1321
01:07:21,640 --> 01:07:23,880
Speaker 2: It was my roo for with two years, and we

1322
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 2: started grabbing or just sprawing it in there and just

1323
01:07:26,120 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 2: not even cleaning. I like, here, you can keep them

1324
01:07:28,400 --> 01:07:30,680
Speaker 2: throwing all this stuff like the cod balk down here

1325
01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:32,880
Speaker 2: and carry it off. All my stuff out there, you know.

1326
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:36,720
Speaker 2: I switched on to the release clothes that they gave me,

1327
01:07:37,280 --> 01:07:39,320
Speaker 2: and I come up with my sign of my release

1328
01:07:39,360 --> 01:07:41,880
Speaker 2: papers and this little building and they're like, well, here's

1329
01:07:41,880 --> 01:07:43,840
Speaker 2: six hundred dollars for the release offs. I hadn't seen

1330
01:07:43,880 --> 01:07:46,560
Speaker 2: money in me certain years, you know, and so and

1331
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:48,080
Speaker 2: they're like, yeah, you got nothing to do with You'll

1332
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:51,080
Speaker 2: see everything's gone since then. So we're going to do

1333
01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:53,880
Speaker 2: the pat and we'll call you to the main. So

1334
01:07:54,600 --> 01:07:56,840
Speaker 2: I raced back call my dad and said Dad, He's like,

1335
01:07:56,920 --> 01:07:58,600
Speaker 2: what I still releasing right now? He said, we meet

1336
01:07:58,640 --> 01:07:59,920
Speaker 2: the rease you right now. Because they told them any

1337
01:08:00,760 --> 01:08:02,920
Speaker 2: I said, yeah, they're gonna release right now, come pick

1338
01:08:02,960 --> 01:08:04,960
Speaker 2: me up. They're all the way in Yakima, which is

1339
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:07,919
Speaker 2: two hours away, two three hours away from his house.

1340
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 2: Dad he goes, we're gone, and then he hangs up

1341
01:08:10,400 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 2: on me. And so they take me to the main thing.

1342
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:17,479
Speaker 2: I go on the main and this this we tendant

1343
01:08:17,479 --> 01:08:20,040
Speaker 2: to come down you when it does it, And they

1344
01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:21,760
Speaker 2: already know the news. They you know, they're all they

1345
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:24,800
Speaker 2: have smiles on their faces and everything. And so he's

1346
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:26,519
Speaker 2: signed the paperwork and all that stuff. And it's funny

1347
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:28,639
Speaker 2: because I had this. They had all I got. I'll

1348
01:08:28,640 --> 01:08:29,720
Speaker 2: show it to you. I got it. I got this.

1349
01:08:30,000 --> 01:08:34,080
Speaker 2: This thing I got shut. So I got the stage

1350
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:37,880
Speaker 2: hanging in the wall room. And so what he told me,

1351
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,400
Speaker 2: He's like, he's signed my paperwork. I'm signing my paperwork.

1352
01:08:40,960 --> 01:08:44,600
Speaker 2: I go, uh, so here, I want to use this

1353
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:46,479
Speaker 2: right now, right and so this.

1354
01:08:49,040 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 4: And I slid it to Lita and he goes, oh,

1355
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:53,640
Speaker 4: you might want to keep that, maybe you may have

1356
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:56,280
Speaker 4: needed later, and I was like, n he just starts

1357
01:08:56,320 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 4: to laugh, right classic, Yeah, he starts to laugh, and

1358
01:09:00,400 --> 01:09:02,080
Speaker 4: I laughed, and he signs all the people and I

1359
01:09:02,160 --> 01:09:03,600
Speaker 4: sign it and then he looks at me.

1360
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:08,920
Speaker 2: He goes, well, he said, you're officially a free man.

1361
01:09:09,000 --> 01:09:11,200
Speaker 2: He goes, we have no jurisdictional right now. And I said, hey,

1362
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:12,600
Speaker 2: can I use that phone? But you don't have to

1363
01:09:12,640 --> 01:09:15,040
Speaker 2: ask me. He's like, oh yeah, I don't know. Wow.

1364
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:17,519
Speaker 2: I call my dad. I said, Dad, where are you

1365
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:21,680
Speaker 2: at here? We're two hours away. I'm like, get there

1366
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:23,600
Speaker 2: as fast as you can, right because I'm trying. I

1367
01:09:23,680 --> 01:09:25,760
Speaker 2: can't go faster. And I said all right. He goes,

1368
01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:29,240
Speaker 2: all right, it's good, don't worry about it. So I

1369
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:31,639
Speaker 2: sat there in this little this little area in front

1370
01:09:31,680 --> 01:09:33,880
Speaker 2: right there and still in the prison, but it's kind

1371
01:09:33,920 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 2: of outside of the prison, but it's in like a

1372
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:39,479
Speaker 2: like a it's like a like a waiting room, like

1373
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:44,080
Speaker 2: a you know, visit. And so as I did that

1374
01:09:44,280 --> 01:09:47,160
Speaker 2: once to the guards are streaming out and there should

1375
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:48,640
Speaker 2: changes come in. So I know a lot of these

1376
01:09:48,680 --> 01:09:50,840
Speaker 2: guards and they're seeing and they're shaking my hand. We

1377
01:09:50,920 --> 01:09:53,439
Speaker 2: heard the news and everything, and then the superintendent comes down.

1378
01:09:53,439 --> 01:09:55,720
Speaker 2: The winter he's pretty much the warden comes down and

1379
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:57,920
Speaker 2: he looks at me and he said, look, I want

1380
01:09:57,960 --> 01:10:00,679
Speaker 2: to tell you sorry, And I said sorry. I said,

1381
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:02,840
Speaker 2: we were sorry. Goes, I said, you didn't have them

1382
01:10:02,840 --> 01:10:04,720
Speaker 2: to do that. He goes, yeah, but I just want

1383
01:10:04,760 --> 01:10:07,880
Speaker 2: you to know that that was wrong, and I apologize

1384
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:10,120
Speaker 2: for happen to keep it in the air. I said, well,

1385
01:10:10,120 --> 01:10:12,160
Speaker 2: I appreciate you. He said, yeah, just so you know that,

1386
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:13,600
Speaker 2: I just want you to hear that. A couple of

1387
01:10:13,680 --> 01:10:15,120
Speaker 2: the guards came and said sorry too, and I was like, well,

1388
01:10:15,160 --> 01:10:16,680
Speaker 2: you guys think they said you can have them to

1389
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:19,800
Speaker 2: do it, you know, And and a couple of people

1390
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:21,320
Speaker 2: that I knew for a while they were just super happy.

1391
01:10:22,200 --> 01:10:25,080
Speaker 2: And then, uh, the guards. I can for like three

1392
01:10:25,120 --> 01:10:27,200
Speaker 2: hours in the guard like, well, I think they're here.

1393
01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:28,840
Speaker 2: I think that's your family right there. So I come on,

1394
01:10:29,000 --> 01:10:30,960
Speaker 2: there's my family and my dad on the racing number,

1395
01:10:30,960 --> 01:10:34,439
Speaker 2: and I just I cut my dad and my dad

1396
01:10:34,479 --> 01:10:37,280
Speaker 2: looks at me and he says, he says, uh, he said,

1397
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:39,200
Speaker 2: I'm still alive, right, And I look at my dad

1398
01:10:39,240 --> 01:10:44,800
Speaker 2: and I said, I survived, I said. And my my

1399
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:46,559
Speaker 2: family came up and they had their phones on there

1400
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 2: taking selfies, and I'm like, I'm like, man, let's get

1401
01:10:48,800 --> 01:10:50,479
Speaker 2: out of here. What are you doing. I don't want

1402
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:52,479
Speaker 2: to be in frontal So we jumped in the car

1403
01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:54,519
Speaker 2: and we into the McDonald's that's right down the street,

1404
01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:57,839
Speaker 2: right outside the prison. Ate there, and then you're assumed

1405
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:00,519
Speaker 2: all the way back home and I I came back

1406
01:11:00,600 --> 01:11:02,760
Speaker 2: to the same house. This is the same room I

1407
01:11:02,880 --> 01:11:05,759
Speaker 2: was in when I went to prison. Wow, sing them

1408
01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:08,920
Speaker 2: yeah yeah. And then then this is home. This has

1409
01:11:08,920 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 2: been my home since I was a kid. And I

1410
01:11:11,240 --> 01:11:14,559
Speaker 2: come back to this house and I started seeing everything

1411
01:11:14,600 --> 01:11:17,880
Speaker 2: that had seen so long. And I come out and

1412
01:11:17,880 --> 01:11:19,960
Speaker 2: there's a crowd in front of my house and it's

1413
01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:22,720
Speaker 2: all my family. So they're all my nephew niches that

1414
01:11:22,760 --> 01:11:24,720
Speaker 2: I've never met before, and just a long stream of

1415
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:27,200
Speaker 2: people in and they're all shaking my hand. I'm so

1416
01:11:27,360 --> 01:11:29,400
Speaker 2: and so son, I'm so and So's daughter and this,

1417
01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:30,560
Speaker 2: and then it was just a long and I was

1418
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:32,560
Speaker 2: sitting there like okay, okay, who are you? Are you?

1419
01:11:33,040 --> 01:11:35,240
Speaker 2: And then my brother, who I met for the first time,

1420
01:11:35,320 --> 01:11:39,080
Speaker 2: is from one of my younger brothers. My dad's my

1421
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:42,160
Speaker 2: dad's wife, and he was here, your first iPhone, right,

1422
01:11:42,160 --> 01:11:46,280
Speaker 2: and he gives me my iPhone fourteen and I was like, wow,

1423
01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:48,400
Speaker 2: what did I do with it? He's like, And then

1424
01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:51,679
Speaker 2: my my little nephew was younger. He was grazzling starts

1425
01:11:51,680 --> 01:11:54,000
Speaker 2: setting up for me and everything. And I didn't know what.

1426
01:11:54,240 --> 01:11:55,880
Speaker 2: I had never seen it before. I never even held

1427
01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:58,360
Speaker 2: my iPhone, you know. And and so that that was

1428
01:11:58,479 --> 01:12:02,360
Speaker 2: the first first being out. And then an hour or

1429
01:12:02,360 --> 01:12:06,559
Speaker 2: two went by, and then uh stream of people from

1430
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:12,080
Speaker 2: the town you know started coming with the bags of clothes.

1431
01:12:12,800 --> 01:12:16,519
Speaker 2: Fool some kind of just came and just gave me

1432
01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:18,320
Speaker 2: a hugged and they were just like telling me sorry,

1433
01:12:18,360 --> 01:12:20,800
Speaker 2: they were happy, they were and it was just a

1434
01:12:20,840 --> 01:12:24,080
Speaker 2: community came out. And the next week or two after that,

1435
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:26,640
Speaker 2: every single place I went right here in the Sunnyside,

1436
01:12:27,439 --> 01:12:30,200
Speaker 2: there are people stopping me, giving me hugs and giving money.

1437
01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:32,280
Speaker 2: I didn't want to accept their money, but they kept

1438
01:12:32,280 --> 01:12:34,600
Speaker 2: giving them to me, and they close and and and

1439
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:37,519
Speaker 2: food and and and it was like and they were

1440
01:12:37,600 --> 01:12:39,439
Speaker 2: just all so grateful and happy that you know that

1441
01:12:39,560 --> 01:12:41,760
Speaker 2: that whatever place, that it's over for me, you know.

1442
01:12:42,040 --> 01:12:45,680
Speaker 2: So it was I think I could never when I

1443
01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:48,800
Speaker 2: was in prison. I never imagined, you know, that that

1444
01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:51,479
Speaker 2: my release would be like that. But I always hope

1445
01:12:51,520 --> 01:12:53,439
Speaker 2: that something along that line would happen. So it was.

1446
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:54,960
Speaker 2: It was just a beautiful moment.

1447
01:13:00,080 --> 01:13:04,280
Speaker 1: Well, the way you've described that story. I'm just absolutely

1448
01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:08,040
Speaker 1: blown away by the humanity. You retain the sense of humor,

1449
01:13:08,080 --> 01:13:11,519
Speaker 1: you retain the way that you speak coming from the

1450
01:13:11,640 --> 01:13:15,720
Speaker 1: environment that you were living in. You've I've got I've

1451
01:13:15,720 --> 01:13:17,840
Speaker 1: got to say, you come across with this real zen

1452
01:13:18,160 --> 01:13:22,680
Speaker 1: like peacefulness about you, which is quite amazing. And I,

1453
01:13:23,400 --> 01:13:26,719
Speaker 1: as the judge said, no doubts that you'll you'll survive

1454
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:30,040
Speaker 1: on the outside. I'm forming the same view here. You've

1455
01:13:30,080 --> 01:13:31,880
Speaker 1: got so much to offer off of the world.

1456
01:13:33,160 --> 01:13:33,320
Speaker 2: You know.

1457
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:37,639
Speaker 1: I've got to touch on the aspect of the police

1458
01:13:37,680 --> 01:13:39,800
Speaker 1: evidence that got you in the in the prison too.

1459
01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:44,120
Speaker 1: I just think power corrupts and how some person can

1460
01:13:44,200 --> 01:13:46,760
Speaker 1: do that to another person. You've seen violent acts in

1461
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:51,120
Speaker 1: prison and the ship that's gone down there. But to

1462
01:13:51,240 --> 01:13:53,519
Speaker 1: do that and have someone that you know is innocent

1463
01:13:53,800 --> 01:13:56,000
Speaker 1: and put away for that length of time that they

1464
01:13:56,080 --> 01:13:59,439
Speaker 1: have to be soulless, I can't understand the mentality of

1465
01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:03,040
Speaker 1: that can go down that path. But I think you

1466
01:14:03,280 --> 01:14:06,040
Speaker 1: telling your story and telling your story the way that

1467
01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:09,240
Speaker 1: you have, I don't need a job here doing a podcast.

1468
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:11,519
Speaker 1: If you actually just pressed record and sat down and

1469
01:14:11,600 --> 01:14:16,479
Speaker 1: listened to your story. You narrated it beautifully, But there

1470
01:14:16,560 --> 01:14:19,479
Speaker 1: is something you can do by letting your story get

1471
01:14:19,520 --> 01:14:22,120
Speaker 1: out there because the courts aren't perfect. You know, the

1472
01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:25,360
Speaker 1: system's not perfect, and people that get caught up like you,

1473
01:14:25,800 --> 01:14:29,360
Speaker 1: I think we need the warning sign there. But more importantly,

1474
01:14:29,640 --> 01:14:31,600
Speaker 1: I think the message that you get across is that

1475
01:14:31,760 --> 01:14:34,519
Speaker 1: you know, setbacks can be turned into a positive. And

1476
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:38,160
Speaker 1: you know you've embraced what happened to you. You owned it,

1477
01:14:38,280 --> 01:14:40,559
Speaker 1: you dealt with it, you process it, and you came

1478
01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:43,800
Speaker 1: out as a good person. So full credit to you.

1479
01:14:43,880 --> 01:14:46,640
Speaker 1: I think it's an amazing journey that you've been on.

1480
01:14:46,960 --> 01:14:49,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and people ask me that a lot

1481
01:14:49,360 --> 01:14:53,719
Speaker 2: to the you know, they asked me, have you seen

1482
01:14:54,760 --> 01:14:56,840
Speaker 2: you know youffer? Someone said you something when I have,

1483
01:14:57,160 --> 01:14:59,160
Speaker 2: I am kind of a ged you blafe and all

1484
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:00,800
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. Plain to him, I said that

1485
01:15:03,680 --> 01:15:06,880
Speaker 2: we all suffer tragedies in our life and the only

1486
01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:09,040
Speaker 2: decisions we have is whether that remains a tragedy in

1487
01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:12,000
Speaker 2: our life we turn into a triumph. And I look

1488
01:15:12,080 --> 01:15:14,600
Speaker 2: at that twenty seven years not as a loss, but

1489
01:15:14,680 --> 01:15:17,360
Speaker 2: as a benefit in certain ways. And I made the

1490
01:15:17,439 --> 01:15:21,960
Speaker 2: decision must say, Okay, you know I got twenty four

1491
01:15:22,160 --> 01:15:24,080
Speaker 2: twenty seven years of my life. It was all on

1492
01:15:24,160 --> 01:15:26,960
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff. But look what came from that,

1493
01:15:27,360 --> 01:15:31,120
Speaker 2: and look what I did from that. And fifteen twenty

1494
01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:34,800
Speaker 2: years from now, I want to look back and say, yeah,

1495
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:37,080
Speaker 2: I was rough, you know, but look at look at

1496
01:15:37,120 --> 01:15:40,439
Speaker 2: the people I've helped, Look at look at what I've

1497
01:15:40,439 --> 01:15:43,320
Speaker 2: done for my community, you know. And that's going to

1498
01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:46,400
Speaker 2: erase whatever I bliness, that whatever was, so it will

1499
01:15:46,439 --> 01:15:49,519
Speaker 2: be a memory of joy rather than one of suffering.

1500
01:15:49,560 --> 01:15:52,240
Speaker 2: And like I said, in the process of that, of

1501
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:55,840
Speaker 2: dealing with that, I found who I was as a person.

1502
01:15:56,840 --> 01:16:01,000
Speaker 2: I found my purpose and I found my voice. And

1503
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:05,200
Speaker 2: it took sometimes it takes a great deal of suffering,

1504
01:16:05,800 --> 01:16:09,479
Speaker 2: you know, to shake us and to reveal our true characters.

1505
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:11,840
Speaker 2: And that's what it did, you know, that that that cop.

1506
01:16:11,920 --> 01:16:14,720
Speaker 2: I don't know what reason he had to do that

1507
01:16:14,840 --> 01:16:15,800
Speaker 2: for me, you know, I don't know if he was

1508
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:17,880
Speaker 2: seeking to destroy me as a person or what it was,

1509
01:16:19,080 --> 01:16:23,040
Speaker 2: but it had the opposite effect. It made me to

1510
01:16:23,160 --> 01:16:26,360
Speaker 2: a better person and and it showed my true character

1511
01:16:26,439 --> 01:16:29,479
Speaker 2: and I lived with that authentic personality. I do a

1512
01:16:29,560 --> 01:16:31,560
Speaker 2: lot of the community. I speak to the youth, I

1513
01:16:32,120 --> 01:16:34,880
Speaker 2: just the juvenile that I was housed in where all

1514
01:16:34,960 --> 01:16:37,720
Speaker 2: this began. I was just there on Frivy speaking to

1515
01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:40,719
Speaker 2: the kids walking the hall that I walked it shackles

1516
01:16:41,200 --> 01:16:44,040
Speaker 2: and I actually sat in the seat of the judge

1517
01:16:44,520 --> 01:16:46,960
Speaker 2: who declined me to set me to the county jail.

1518
01:16:47,560 --> 01:16:49,200
Speaker 2: And I spoke to those kids, you know, and and

1519
01:16:49,360 --> 01:16:55,240
Speaker 2: and that's the part of of taking this tragedy and

1520
01:16:55,400 --> 01:16:57,760
Speaker 2: making into some positive only for myself, but for the

1521
01:16:57,800 --> 01:16:59,640
Speaker 2: people around me. And that's what I'm trying to do.

1522
01:16:59,680 --> 01:17:03,520
Speaker 2: It's not I haven't stopped since I've been really NonStop.

1523
01:17:04,479 --> 01:17:07,439
Speaker 2: I work with some some youth that I understand because

1524
01:17:07,439 --> 01:17:09,360
Speaker 2: I understand what's missing their last because that was missent

1525
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:13,840
Speaker 2: in mind. And I do it with the with the

1526
01:17:13,960 --> 01:17:16,680
Speaker 2: with the sincerity that comes from knowing where they come

1527
01:17:16,720 --> 01:17:20,840
Speaker 2: from me. And so I I was spoken to the

1528
01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:22,800
Speaker 2: cheap of police, if not say that she police is

1529
01:17:22,880 --> 01:17:25,000
Speaker 2: not the same moment back then. But I've talked to them,

1530
01:17:25,040 --> 01:17:27,519
Speaker 2: you know, I have no problems. I've taken pictures for

1531
01:17:27,560 --> 01:17:30,640
Speaker 2: tell me. No, I've been to Advance where I was

1532
01:17:31,800 --> 01:17:33,800
Speaker 2: volunteer and handing out turkeys over there too, you know.

1533
01:17:33,960 --> 01:17:36,800
Speaker 2: So there's no there's no issue with that because I

1534
01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:38,840
Speaker 2: see it's beyond that. You know, I'm not going to

1535
01:17:38,960 --> 01:17:44,200
Speaker 2: let you know certain individuals you know attained what you

1536
01:17:44,280 --> 01:17:46,920
Speaker 2: know the department can be because you know it. We're

1537
01:17:47,439 --> 01:17:49,120
Speaker 2: when I look at the struggles that I face back

1538
01:17:49,160 --> 01:17:50,880
Speaker 2: then and the struggles that we face now in our town,

1539
01:17:51,280 --> 01:17:52,519
Speaker 2: we're on the same page. You know.

1540
01:17:53,040 --> 01:17:56,320
Speaker 1: It's a good message for law enforcement. But yeah, if

1541
01:17:56,439 --> 01:18:00,120
Speaker 1: if that uh that the morals are let slip, this

1542
01:18:00,240 --> 01:18:03,640
Speaker 1: is the consequences of someone that loses direction. So you

1543
01:18:03,800 --> 01:18:07,920
Speaker 1: got messages across the board, and you you look like yourself,

1544
01:18:08,280 --> 01:18:09,000
Speaker 1: kept yourself fit.

1545
01:18:09,040 --> 01:18:10,000
Speaker 2: You've got a lot of life.

1546
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:14,320
Speaker 1: Ahead of you. You've done done the time, and it

1547
01:18:14,400 --> 01:18:17,720
Speaker 1: looks like you looked after yourself. So yeah, so much

1548
01:18:17,760 --> 01:18:19,760
Speaker 1: ahead of you. I want to do a shout out

1549
01:18:19,800 --> 01:18:24,040
Speaker 1: to your old man too, your father, because I think

1550
01:18:24,120 --> 01:18:26,840
Speaker 1: the fact that you have one good person like that

1551
01:18:27,120 --> 01:18:28,800
Speaker 1: that stood by you the whole way, and I know

1552
01:18:28,880 --> 01:18:30,880
Speaker 1: that your sisters have and you know, you've had other

1553
01:18:31,040 --> 01:18:33,840
Speaker 1: other people stand by you, and the lawyers the work

1554
01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:35,880
Speaker 1: that they did, the passion that they had to get

1555
01:18:36,080 --> 01:18:39,320
Speaker 1: justice for you, but the little things, and you articulated

1556
01:18:39,320 --> 01:18:41,920
Speaker 1: it very clearly, the little messages that your father gave

1557
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:44,479
Speaker 1: you gave you strength at times when you needed it.

1558
01:18:44,600 --> 01:18:47,120
Speaker 1: You helped him out at times when he needed it.

1559
01:18:47,240 --> 01:18:50,000
Speaker 1: But how much of a difference If you didn't have

1560
01:18:50,200 --> 01:18:53,400
Speaker 1: that guidance from that man, perhaps you would have lost

1561
01:18:53,439 --> 01:18:54,759
Speaker 1: your way in the prison system.

1562
01:18:55,080 --> 01:18:58,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it would have probably wouldn't be senior,

1563
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:01,120
Speaker 2: because that was We all get to points in our

1564
01:19:01,160 --> 01:19:02,840
Speaker 2: life where we feel like we can't push it past,

1565
01:19:03,880 --> 01:19:07,439
Speaker 2: and where we just you know, we've we've reached our limit.

1566
01:19:08,040 --> 01:19:09,439
Speaker 2: And it was this moment that I thought, when I

1567
01:19:09,439 --> 01:19:11,439
Speaker 2: reached my limit, that my dad's words would ring true,

1568
01:19:11,479 --> 01:19:12,960
Speaker 2: you know, or he would come through and say, look,

1569
01:19:12,960 --> 01:19:15,320
Speaker 2: you know, don't forget, or he would remind me of that,

1570
01:19:15,400 --> 01:19:19,639
Speaker 2: you know. And the only sad thing is it took

1571
01:19:19,680 --> 01:19:21,120
Speaker 2: me a long time to realize that. It took me,

1572
01:19:21,439 --> 01:19:22,760
Speaker 2: you know, going through what I went through to realize.

1573
01:19:22,760 --> 01:19:24,479
Speaker 2: I wish I would have realized that younger on, because

1574
01:19:24,479 --> 01:19:26,640
Speaker 2: he always had that love for me. But yeah, that

1575
01:19:27,160 --> 01:19:30,360
Speaker 2: I remember, I'm only we had when I got out.

1576
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:32,040
Speaker 2: So I used to always tell my dad when I

1577
01:19:32,080 --> 01:19:35,040
Speaker 2: got out, I was gonna go right because he's the

1578
01:19:35,040 --> 01:19:36,880
Speaker 2: truck driver and I was going to go work with

1579
01:19:37,280 --> 01:19:39,479
Speaker 2: the truck and all that kind of stuff. This is

1580
01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:41,800
Speaker 2: like a week or two after I write out. So

1581
01:19:41,840 --> 01:19:43,000
Speaker 2: I go to work with him and I was sitting

1582
01:19:43,000 --> 01:19:45,280
Speaker 2: on the passion seat and we stopped by the stop

1583
01:19:45,400 --> 01:19:46,720
Speaker 2: right in the middle of the country. He's done a load,

1584
01:19:46,720 --> 01:19:49,479
Speaker 2: and I look at him. I said, Dad, I said, uh,

1585
01:19:49,880 --> 01:19:51,360
Speaker 2: you remember when I told you I was gonna ride

1586
01:19:51,439 --> 01:19:53,120
Speaker 2: I was gonna ride next hip and in the passion

1587
01:19:53,200 --> 01:19:56,880
Speaker 2: seat and your truck. And he looks at me. He says, yeah,

1588
01:19:56,960 --> 01:19:59,519
Speaker 2: I told you. Because he starts to cry and he

1589
01:19:59,560 --> 01:20:02,240
Speaker 2: says yeah with a big smile to It wasn't a tear.

1590
01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:06,280
Speaker 2: It was you did something did and that my right there,

1591
01:20:06,320 --> 01:20:10,559
Speaker 2: it was like it was it all just came together

1592
01:20:10,600 --> 01:20:14,560
Speaker 2: at that moment. It was like it's almost like it's

1593
01:20:14,560 --> 01:20:18,799
Speaker 2: almost like two you know, two people survived something together

1594
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:21,960
Speaker 2: and at that moment it's gone, it's past, and you

1595
01:20:22,000 --> 01:20:27,439
Speaker 2: look at each other. We made it to it. Yeah.

1596
01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:32,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well look, thank you so much for coming on

1597
01:20:32,439 --> 01:20:37,080
Speaker 1: and share sharing your story. I've I'm walking out feeling uplifted.

1598
01:20:37,560 --> 01:20:40,280
Speaker 1: You put out a positive vibe like I really this,

1599
01:20:41,120 --> 01:20:43,120
Speaker 1: Like I thought this is going to be a heavy story,

1600
01:20:43,120 --> 01:20:45,640
Speaker 1: as I said, but I thought we'd find inspiration. But

1601
01:20:45,800 --> 01:20:49,000
Speaker 1: you've surprised me with your attitude and it inspired me.

1602
01:20:49,400 --> 01:20:52,080
Speaker 1: I think it's you're a great example of how you

1603
01:20:52,200 --> 01:20:56,320
Speaker 1: can accept your fate on what happens and still still

1604
01:20:56,360 --> 01:20:57,040
Speaker 1: find purpose.

1605
01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:04,560
Speaker 2: Amazing push your turning, I mean, that's that's part of

1606
01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:08,800
Speaker 2: the messive. There's so much struggle and trading in Oliver.

1607
01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:17,000
Speaker 1: Customer beful way to finish a great chat. Thank you

1608
01:21:17,080 --> 01:21:24,639
Speaker 1: so much for coming on Jesus, when you think your

1609
01:21:24,720 --> 01:21:27,200
Speaker 1: life's gone the ship, just have a little bit of

1610
01:21:27,400 --> 01:21:31,400
Speaker 1: whatever is saying. Convictor is a sixteen year old for

1611
01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:34,040
Speaker 1: a murder he didn't committ and spending twenty six years

1612
01:21:34,080 --> 01:21:37,040
Speaker 1: some reason, but in many he's not only to survive

1613
01:21:37,320 --> 01:21:40,880
Speaker 1: but also retain his humanity. And I just found it

1614
01:21:40,920 --> 01:21:44,800
Speaker 1: and actually pleasure sitting in the cabin. Chapter Man and

1615
01:21:44,960 --> 01:21:47,240
Speaker 1: one that's not bitter about the world. But I think

1616
01:21:47,280 --> 01:21:48,720
Speaker 1: it's an inspiration to all of us.