Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to seven AM. In Russia,
Speaker 1: the rules of power are being rewritten. For decades, Vladimir
Speaker 1: Putin govern through a network of loyal elites, oligarchs, bureaucrats,
Speaker 1: security chiefs, each free warded for their obedience and connections.
Speaker 1: But since the invasion of Ukraine, that system has begun
Speaker 1: to fracture. The old elite are being sidelined and a
Speaker 1: new caste is emerging, relatives, ideologues, and battlefield loyalists who
Speaker 1: tie their futures to the war. Moscow based journalist Cape
Speaker 1: Depuri has covered Putin's Russia for Reuters and more recently
Speaker 1: as the Bureau Chief or Associated Press. Today, she tells
Speaker 1: us how the war is reshaping the Russian willing class
Speaker 1: and what it reveals about where Putin's Russia is headed.
Speaker 1: It's Monday, November twenty four. Kate, thanks so much for
Speaker 1: joining us. You are one of the very few Western
Speaker 1: journalists still reporting from Russia. What's it like for you
Speaker 1: to do your job there? What challenges do you face?
Speaker 2: It's true there are very few Western journalists still reporting
Speaker 2: out of Russia. We are now roughly I would say,
Speaker 2: about twenty journalists. It's highly restricted now in terms of
Speaker 2: what we can do. The Special military Operation, which is
Speaker 2: what the Russians called the war in Ukraine, has brought
Speaker 2: extreme restrictions for all media. There's a whole slew of
Speaker 2: new Internet restrictions. So it's now a criminal offense to
Speaker 2: search for any banned websites. That means independent news in Russian,
Speaker 2: So the Internet search is a criminal offense in itself.
Speaker 2: Platforms like WhatsApp and Telegram are now blocked. They're not
Speaker 2: fully blocked. They're still operational, but they will be fully
Speaker 2: blocked as the government tries to roll out its new
Speaker 2: platform called max.
Speaker 3: Max is interesting.
Speaker 2: It's a platform that has been developed by the Digital
Speaker 2: Ministry and it will be installed on every smartphone sold
Speaker 2: in Russia. It will be the platform used in all
Speaker 2: official business and it has been developed as a state tool,
Speaker 2: so most people expect it will be used for surveillance.
Speaker 1: Does all this make it frightening for you to do
Speaker 1: your job? I mean this sort of surveillance pressure. Not
Speaker 1: only does it make it difficult for you to do
Speaker 1: your job, let'n't make it scary to do your job.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's less scary for a Western correspondent than it
Speaker 2: is for Russian journalists. They have to be even more
Speaker 2: careful than Western journalists. And part of my job is
Speaker 2: to make sure that I fulfill the duty of care
Speaker 2: towards the Russian journalists that I work with. It's also
Speaker 2: scary for anybody that talks to a Western journalist, So
Speaker 2: in terms of sources, it's now very restricted. People are
Speaker 2: quite frightened to meet you, and they're certainly really careful
Speaker 2: about whatever they say to you.
Speaker 1: Can you take us back to a time before the war?
Speaker 1: What kind of power structures existed under Putin and how
Speaker 1: stable was it?
Speaker 2: The elite around Putin up until the war was pretty stable.
Speaker 2: It was composed of the people that he had known
Speaker 2: in Saint Petersburg when he was coming up through the
Speaker 2: bureaucracy in that city, and they're probably his closest circle.
Speaker 2: It was also composed of people that he could trust
Speaker 2: from the justice and security agencies, and also the Sillaviki,
Speaker 2: who are the FSB and the security services. There's one
Speaker 2: really other important group to mention, and that is the technocrats,
Speaker 2: and they've also been at his side for a long time,
Speaker 2: and they're possibly the most interesting group in some ways
Speaker 2: of the old structures because they are people of diverse
Speaker 2: views and political conviction. They're extremely talented technical crats who
Speaker 2: basically have kept the government going.
Speaker 3: So the elite is a mixed bag.
Speaker 2: It's a kind of honeycomb of people that he has
Speaker 2: developed and he trusts.
Speaker 3: Most of the elite.
Speaker 2: Apart from the technocrats, have been allowed to develop positions
Speaker 2: of great wealth and status as long as they stayed
Speaker 2: out of politics. And put In allowed the access, and
Speaker 2: he decided who got to play political roles.
Speaker 1: And since the invasion would have been the biggest shifts
Speaker 1: in how political or business power is distributed.
Speaker 3: Well, it's now all about winning the war.
Speaker 2: And key to the prosecution of the war has been
Speaker 2: this group of technocrats. Put In values above all else,
Speaker 2: the ability of those.
Speaker 3: In his circle to help him win the war.
Speaker 2: He did put the old elite or notice in early
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four when he made a speech to the
Speaker 2: Federal Assembly. It's like his address to the nation, and
Speaker 2: he said, the real elite is those who serve Russia
Speaker 2: workers and warriors, people who've proven their loyalty to Russia
Speaker 2: in action.
Speaker 4: What they are definitely not an elite. I repeat the
Speaker 4: true real elite are all those who serve Russia, the
Speaker 4: workers and the warriors, the reliable ones, the ones proven
Speaker 4: their loyalty to Russia. They are worthy people.
Speaker 2: So top politicians and business bosses know that they need
Speaker 2: to be involved in some kind of patriotic support for
Speaker 2: the war now.
Speaker 1: And so that's saying a whole bunch of other characters
Speaker 1: rise through the ranks and in uadically highlight and Civilova.
Speaker 1: What does her rise tell us about the kind of
Speaker 1: people Putin is now elevating?
Speaker 2: Well, Annatsivilyova is a very interesting and significant character.
Speaker 3: Misinski.
Speaker 2: It's important to say that the Kremlin has not acknowledged
Speaker 2: this officially, but she is widely reported to be a
Speaker 2: second cousin of Putin's. He doesn't acknowledge family members publicly,
Speaker 2: but Western intelligence and independent Russian reporting suggests that she
Speaker 2: is his second cousin. She has been given a job
Speaker 2: as the deputy Defense Minister. There are several of them,
Speaker 2: but she is possibly the most visible. She has a
Speaker 2: very active social media presence, and she's like the human
Speaker 2: face of port given to military veterans and their families.
Speaker 2: Her telegram channel and now her Max channel is full
Speaker 2: of pictures of her meeting and greeting veterans officiating at
Speaker 2: Paralympic sporting events. She is extremely empathetic but also pretty tough,
Speaker 2: and she does a very good job for Putin in
Speaker 2: giving a human face to this war effort.
Speaker 1: Is this a trend caat of Putin picking family members
Speaker 1: to take on important roles, and if so, what does
Speaker 1: that say about how Putin is holding on Suwey's group
Speaker 1: on power.
Speaker 2: Independent observers say that putin His inner circle is smaller now.
Speaker 3: He has gathered around.
Speaker 2: Him only those that he can completely trust, and amongst
Speaker 2: those are possibly family members, although not acknowledged, and the
Speaker 2: family members of those inside his inner circle that he trusts.
Speaker 2: The kind of changes and the new characters that we're
Speaker 2: seeing are very much part of the Kremlin narrative. These
Speaker 2: new wartime heroes are emerging, They're changing Russia. This is
Speaker 2: very much what we need to understand when we look
Speaker 2: at Russia.
Speaker 1: Today coming up? Is this reshaping permanent and what does
Speaker 1: it mean for everyday Russians? Do you see this as
Speaker 1: a permanent reshaping of the el or just more of
Speaker 1: a wartime calculation.
Speaker 2: I think that's a big question. I think it's really
Speaker 2: important for Putting that these new characters who've risen up
Speaker 2: are seen to the Russian people of the rewards that
Speaker 2: you can get if you support the war. But it's
Speaker 2: a big question as to whether the old elite in
Speaker 2: the long term will give up their positions of power
Speaker 2: and allow the new characters in. I think in terms
Speaker 2: of Annatsiviliova, there's not a question about that.
Speaker 3: She is already in. She's there for the long term.
Speaker 2: There is a scheme that Putin personally has initiated called
Speaker 2: Time of Heroes. That's a scheme for people who are
Speaker 2: war veterans. They can apply to be trained to join
Speaker 2: the government. I think we will see them emerge into
Speaker 2: positions of influence and power. For example, Putin has said
Speaker 2: that he wants one hundred war veterans to be elected
Speaker 2: in parliamentary elections next year, so he's obviously interested in
Speaker 2: bringing these new military faces into the public domain. How
Speaker 2: high they rise is another question.
Speaker 1: Kate is Putin at all interested in ending the war
Speaker 1: or seeking peace or does perpetual war suit him and
Speaker 1: he's hold in.
Speaker 2: Power given this whole year of on off negotiations with
Speaker 2: the American side and with Trump. It's now clear that
Speaker 2: Putin is in no hurry to end the war. There's
Speaker 2: been some additional momentum on the front in recent weeks,
Speaker 2: with Russian forces really probing hard at the u Ukrainian defenses.
Speaker 2: He feels he's got the momentum on his side on
Speaker 2: the battleground. He has an ideological commitment himself to pulling
Speaker 2: Ukraine back into a Russian orbit, and that's really strong.
Speaker 2: It's a really strong motivator. And those around him also
Speaker 2: say that that this is the key factor, is Putin's
Speaker 2: own personal commitment to this ideological goal that he has.
Speaker 5: At its height, the Soviet Empire stretched from laverv in
Speaker 5: eastern Europe all the way to the Pacific Ocean. But
Speaker 5: in the wake of the USSR collapse, Putin views the
Speaker 5: sizable communities of Russian speakers and ethnic Russians in many
Speaker 5: of these former Soviet states, especially Ukraine, as belonging to
Speaker 5: the Russian Federation.
Speaker 1: And where does that commitment stem from in the first place, As.
Speaker 2: A question, it must come to some extent from his
Speaker 2: Soviet heritage, from having grown up and flourished as a
Speaker 2: KGB officer.
Speaker 3: Within the Soviet system.
Speaker 2: So he has an emotional commitment to that to the
Speaker 2: greater Russian influence, and it's also for him as a strategist,
Speaker 2: really important to keep Ukraine within Russia's orbit as a
Speaker 2: buffer to Western States, to the NATO alliance.
Speaker 1: And finally, Kate, what does this changing elite mean for
Speaker 1: ordinary Russians.
Speaker 2: Russians watch what is going on at the top with
Speaker 2: great attention. They understand that their lives are affected by
Speaker 2: the decisions of one man, so they are the best
Speaker 2: Kremlin watchers. And anybody who tells you that Russians are
Speaker 2: not thinking about the war and the power structures are wrong,
Speaker 2: they're really attuned to it. It's another question whether they
Speaker 2: will say what they really think. If you do a
Speaker 2: vox pop in the street in Moscow, you can be
Speaker 2: pretty much guaranteed that if anyone will talk to you,
Speaker 2: they're going to be pro putin. Russians are extremely adept
Speaker 2: at saying what's needed of them in order to survive.
Speaker 2: That's the reality of their history. But there are those
Speaker 2: who will say what they think. And as reporters, by
Speaker 2: the way, we have to be really careful because we
Speaker 2: have a duty of care. They can really get into
Speaker 2: trouble the up in jail for a moment of kind
Speaker 2: of impulse and emotion. The other thing I think that's
Speaker 2: interesting in terms of what Russians, what ordinary Russians are thinking,
Speaker 2: is that they do feel the restrictions and this is
Speaker 2: a pressure point for them. They're feeling the Internet restrictions
Speaker 2: quite considerably. That's a point where they will open up
Speaker 2: and say enough, we need information. We can't live isolated.
Speaker 3: And they, of course.
Speaker 2: Like the Ukrainians, are really tired of the war. The
Speaker 2: economy is feeling the pressure, prices arising, business is suffering,
Speaker 2: and the Russians feel it. So they are very interested
Speaker 2: in the decisions being taken at the top.
Speaker 1: Well, k we really appreciate your time, and we really
Speaker 1: appreciate you're reporting. Thanks so much for coming on seven am.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much for invading me.
Speaker 1: You can greet Kate the puries reporting in eighteen forty
Speaker 1: three magazine The Economist's long read publication. It's called How
Speaker 1: to Get Ahead in Wartime Russia and it's online now.
Speaker 1: Also in the news, Labour has offered a concession to
Speaker 1: the greens of native forest logging in a bid to
Speaker 1: get its environmental reforms through This week The offer, according
Speaker 1: to the ABC, would mean logging of native forests would
Speaker 1: need to comply with new environmental standards within three years.
Speaker 1: Green Senator Sarah Hanson Young they said she needs to
Speaker 1: look at the details, but that she doesn't think a
Speaker 1: timeline of three years to protect native forests is acceptable.
Speaker 1: And the Bureau of Meteorology spent ninety six million dollars
Speaker 1: on its website redesign. The new bureau chief, Doctor Stewart Minchin,
Speaker 1: has confirmed the website has been criticized for being hard
Speaker 1: to navigate and making ready placed stains on the radar
Speaker 1: map difficult to understand. The bomb has been under fire
Speaker 1: regularly since twenty twenty two, when it attempted to rebrand
Speaker 1: as the Bureau. Its new leader, Doctor Stewart Minchin, told
Speaker 1: nine newspapers it's important to be transparent about the things
Speaker 1: management at the Bureau of Meteorology has got wrong. I'm
Speaker 1: Daniel James. It's is seven am. Thanks for listening.