WEBVTT - Putin’s new wartime allies

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to seven AM. In Russia,

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<v Speaker 1>the rules of power are being rewritten. For decades, Vladimir

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<v Speaker 1>Putin govern through a network of loyal elites, oligarchs, bureaucrats,

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<v Speaker 1>security chiefs, each free warded for their obedience and connections.

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<v Speaker 1>But since the invasion of Ukraine, that system has begun

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<v Speaker 1>to fracture. The old elite are being sidelined and a

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<v Speaker 1>new caste is emerging, relatives, ideologues, and battlefield loyalists who

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<v Speaker 1>tie their futures to the war. Moscow based journalist Cape

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<v Speaker 1>Depuri has covered Putin's Russia for Reuters and more recently

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<v Speaker 1>as the Bureau Chief or Associated Press. Today, she tells

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<v Speaker 1>us how the war is reshaping the Russian willing class

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<v Speaker 1>and what it reveals about where Putin's Russia is headed.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Monday, November twenty four. Kate, thanks so much for

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<v Speaker 1>joining us. You are one of the very few Western

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<v Speaker 1>journalists still reporting from Russia. What's it like for you

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<v Speaker 1>to do your job there? What challenges do you face?

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<v Speaker 2>It's true there are very few Western journalists still reporting

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<v Speaker 2>out of Russia. We are now roughly I would say,

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<v Speaker 2>about twenty journalists. It's highly restricted now in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>what we can do. The Special military Operation, which is

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<v Speaker 2>what the Russians called the war in Ukraine, has brought

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<v Speaker 2>extreme restrictions for all media. There's a whole slew of

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<v Speaker 2>new Internet restrictions. So it's now a criminal offense to

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<v Speaker 2>search for any banned websites. That means independent news in Russian,

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<v Speaker 2>So the Internet search is a criminal offense in itself.

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<v Speaker 2>Platforms like WhatsApp and Telegram are now blocked. They're not

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<v Speaker 2>fully blocked. They're still operational, but they will be fully

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<v Speaker 2>blocked as the government tries to roll out its new

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<v Speaker 2>platform called max.

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<v Speaker 3>Max is interesting.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a platform that has been developed by the Digital

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<v Speaker 2>Ministry and it will be installed on every smartphone sold

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<v Speaker 2>in Russia. It will be the platform used in all

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<v Speaker 2>official business and it has been developed as a state tool,

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<v Speaker 2>so most people expect it will be used for surveillance.

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<v Speaker 1>Does all this make it frightening for you to do

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<v Speaker 1>your job? I mean this sort of surveillance pressure. Not

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<v Speaker 1>only does it make it difficult for you to do

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<v Speaker 1>your job, let'n't make it scary to do your job.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, it's less scary for a Western correspondent than it

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<v Speaker 2>is for Russian journalists. They have to be even more

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<v Speaker 2>careful than Western journalists. And part of my job is

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<v Speaker 2>to make sure that I fulfill the duty of care

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<v Speaker 2>towards the Russian journalists that I work with. It's also

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<v Speaker 2>scary for anybody that talks to a Western journalist, So

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<v Speaker 2>in terms of sources, it's now very restricted. People are

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<v Speaker 2>quite frightened to meet you, and they're certainly really careful

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<v Speaker 2>about whatever they say to you.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you take us back to a time before the war?

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<v Speaker 1>What kind of power structures existed under Putin and how

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<v Speaker 1>stable was it?

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<v Speaker 2>The elite around Putin up until the war was pretty stable.

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<v Speaker 2>It was composed of the people that he had known

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<v Speaker 2>in Saint Petersburg when he was coming up through the

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<v Speaker 2>bureaucracy in that city, and they're probably his closest circle.

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<v Speaker 2>It was also composed of people that he could trust

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<v Speaker 2>from the justice and security agencies, and also the Sillaviki,

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<v Speaker 2>who are the FSB and the security services. There's one

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<v Speaker 2>really other important group to mention, and that is the technocrats,

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<v Speaker 2>and they've also been at his side for a long time,

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<v Speaker 2>and they're possibly the most interesting group in some ways

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<v Speaker 2>of the old structures because they are people of diverse

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<v Speaker 2>views and political conviction. They're extremely talented technical crats who

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<v Speaker 2>basically have kept the government going.

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<v Speaker 3>So the elite is a mixed bag.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a kind of honeycomb of people that he has

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<v Speaker 2>developed and he trusts.

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<v Speaker 3>Most of the elite.

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<v Speaker 2>Apart from the technocrats, have been allowed to develop positions

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<v Speaker 2>of great wealth and status as long as they stayed

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<v Speaker 2>out of politics. And put In allowed the access, and

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<v Speaker 2>he decided who got to play political roles.

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<v Speaker 1>And since the invasion would have been the biggest shifts

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<v Speaker 1>in how political or business power is distributed.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, it's now all about winning the war.

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<v Speaker 2>And key to the prosecution of the war has been

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<v Speaker 2>this group of technocrats. Put In values above all else,

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<v Speaker 2>the ability of those.

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<v Speaker 3>In his circle to help him win the war.

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<v Speaker 2>He did put the old elite or notice in early

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<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty four when he made a speech to the

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<v Speaker 2>Federal Assembly. It's like his address to the nation, and

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<v Speaker 2>he said, the real elite is those who serve Russia

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<v Speaker 2>workers and warriors, people who've proven their loyalty to Russia

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<v Speaker 2>in action.

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<v Speaker 4>What they are definitely not an elite. I repeat the

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<v Speaker 4>true real elite are all those who serve Russia, the

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<v Speaker 4>workers and the warriors, the reliable ones, the ones proven

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<v Speaker 4>their loyalty to Russia. They are worthy people.

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<v Speaker 2>So top politicians and business bosses know that they need

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<v Speaker 2>to be involved in some kind of patriotic support for

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<v Speaker 2>the war now.

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<v Speaker 1>And so that's saying a whole bunch of other characters

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<v Speaker 1>rise through the ranks and in uadically highlight and Civilova.

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<v Speaker 1>What does her rise tell us about the kind of

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<v Speaker 1>people Putin is now elevating?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, Annatsivilyova is a very interesting and significant character.

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<v Speaker 3>Misinski.

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<v Speaker 2>It's important to say that the Kremlin has not acknowledged

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<v Speaker 2>this officially, but she is widely reported to be a

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<v Speaker 2>second cousin of Putin's. He doesn't acknowledge family members publicly,

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<v Speaker 2>but Western intelligence and independent Russian reporting suggests that she

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<v Speaker 2>is his second cousin. She has been given a job

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<v Speaker 2>as the deputy Defense Minister. There are several of them,

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<v Speaker 2>but she is possibly the most visible. She has a

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<v Speaker 2>very active social media presence, and she's like the human

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<v Speaker 2>face of port given to military veterans and their families.

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<v Speaker 2>Her telegram channel and now her Max channel is full

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<v Speaker 2>of pictures of her meeting and greeting veterans officiating at

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<v Speaker 2>Paralympic sporting events. She is extremely empathetic but also pretty tough,

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<v Speaker 2>and she does a very good job for Putin in

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<v Speaker 2>giving a human face to this war effort.

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<v Speaker 1>Is this a trend caat of Putin picking family members

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<v Speaker 1>to take on important roles, and if so, what does

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<v Speaker 1>that say about how Putin is holding on Suwey's group

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<v Speaker 1>on power.

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<v Speaker 2>Independent observers say that putin His inner circle is smaller now.

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<v Speaker 3>He has gathered around.

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<v Speaker 2>Him only those that he can completely trust, and amongst

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<v Speaker 2>those are possibly family members, although not acknowledged, and the

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<v Speaker 2>family members of those inside his inner circle that he trusts.

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<v Speaker 2>The kind of changes and the new characters that we're

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<v Speaker 2>seeing are very much part of the Kremlin narrative. These

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<v Speaker 2>new wartime heroes are emerging, They're changing Russia. This is

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<v Speaker 2>very much what we need to understand when we look

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<v Speaker 2>at Russia.

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<v Speaker 1>Today coming up? Is this reshaping permanent and what does

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<v Speaker 1>it mean for everyday Russians? Do you see this as

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<v Speaker 1>a permanent reshaping of the el or just more of

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<v Speaker 1>a wartime calculation.

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<v Speaker 2>I think that's a big question. I think it's really

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<v Speaker 2>important for Putting that these new characters who've risen up

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<v Speaker 2>are seen to the Russian people of the rewards that

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<v Speaker 2>you can get if you support the war. But it's

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<v Speaker 2>a big question as to whether the old elite in

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<v Speaker 2>the long term will give up their positions of power

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<v Speaker 2>and allow the new characters in. I think in terms

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<v Speaker 2>of Annatsiviliova, there's not a question about that.

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<v Speaker 3>She is already in. She's there for the long term.

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<v Speaker 2>There is a scheme that Putin personally has initiated called

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<v Speaker 2>Time of Heroes. That's a scheme for people who are

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<v Speaker 2>war veterans. They can apply to be trained to join

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<v Speaker 2>the government. I think we will see them emerge into

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<v Speaker 2>positions of influence and power. For example, Putin has said

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<v Speaker 2>that he wants one hundred war veterans to be elected

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<v Speaker 2>in parliamentary elections next year, so he's obviously interested in

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<v Speaker 2>bringing these new military faces into the public domain. How

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<v Speaker 2>high they rise is another question.

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<v Speaker 1>Kate is Putin at all interested in ending the war

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<v Speaker 1>or seeking peace or does perpetual war suit him and

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<v Speaker 1>he's hold in.

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<v Speaker 2>Power given this whole year of on off negotiations with

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<v Speaker 2>the American side and with Trump. It's now clear that

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<v Speaker 2>Putin is in no hurry to end the war. There's

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<v Speaker 2>been some additional momentum on the front in recent weeks,

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<v Speaker 2>with Russian forces really probing hard at the u Ukrainian defenses.

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<v Speaker 2>He feels he's got the momentum on his side on

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<v Speaker 2>the battleground. He has an ideological commitment himself to pulling

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<v Speaker 2>Ukraine back into a Russian orbit, and that's really strong.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a really strong motivator. And those around him also

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<v Speaker 2>say that that this is the key factor, is Putin's

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<v Speaker 2>own personal commitment to this ideological goal that he has.

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<v Speaker 5>At its height, the Soviet Empire stretched from laverv in

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<v Speaker 5>eastern Europe all the way to the Pacific Ocean. But

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<v Speaker 5>in the wake of the USSR collapse, Putin views the

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<v Speaker 5>sizable communities of Russian speakers and ethnic Russians in many

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<v Speaker 5>of these former Soviet states, especially Ukraine, as belonging to

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<v Speaker 5>the Russian Federation.

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<v Speaker 1>And where does that commitment stem from in the first place, As.

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<v Speaker 2>A question, it must come to some extent from his

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<v Speaker 2>Soviet heritage, from having grown up and flourished as a

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<v Speaker 2>KGB officer.

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<v Speaker 3>Within the Soviet system.

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<v Speaker 2>So he has an emotional commitment to that to the

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<v Speaker 2>greater Russian influence, and it's also for him as a strategist,

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<v Speaker 2>really important to keep Ukraine within Russia's orbit as a

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<v Speaker 2>buffer to Western States, to the NATO alliance.

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<v Speaker 1>And finally, Kate, what does this changing elite mean for

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<v Speaker 1>ordinary Russians.

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<v Speaker 2>Russians watch what is going on at the top with

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<v Speaker 2>great attention. They understand that their lives are affected by

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<v Speaker 2>the decisions of one man, so they are the best

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<v Speaker 2>Kremlin watchers. And anybody who tells you that Russians are

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<v Speaker 2>not thinking about the war and the power structures are wrong,

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<v Speaker 2>they're really attuned to it. It's another question whether they

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<v Speaker 2>will say what they really think. If you do a

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<v Speaker 2>vox pop in the street in Moscow, you can be

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<v Speaker 2>pretty much guaranteed that if anyone will talk to you,

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<v Speaker 2>they're going to be pro putin. Russians are extremely adept

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<v Speaker 2>at saying what's needed of them in order to survive.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the reality of their history. But there are those

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<v Speaker 2>who will say what they think. And as reporters, by

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<v Speaker 2>the way, we have to be really careful because we

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<v Speaker 2>have a duty of care. They can really get into

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<v Speaker 2>trouble the up in jail for a moment of kind

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<v Speaker 2>of impulse and emotion. The other thing I think that's

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<v Speaker 2>interesting in terms of what Russians, what ordinary Russians are thinking,

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<v Speaker 2>is that they do feel the restrictions and this is

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<v Speaker 2>a pressure point for them. They're feeling the Internet restrictions

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<v Speaker 2>quite considerably. That's a point where they will open up

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<v Speaker 2>and say enough, we need information. We can't live isolated.

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<v Speaker 3>And they, of course.

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<v Speaker 2>Like the Ukrainians, are really tired of the war. The

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<v Speaker 2>economy is feeling the pressure, prices arising, business is suffering,

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<v Speaker 2>and the Russians feel it. So they are very interested

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<v Speaker 2>in the decisions being taken at the top.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, k we really appreciate your time, and we really

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<v Speaker 1>appreciate you're reporting. Thanks so much for coming on seven am.

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<v Speaker 3>Thank you very much for invading me.

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<v Speaker 1>You can greet Kate the puries reporting in eighteen forty

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<v Speaker 1>three magazine The Economist's long read publication. It's called How

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<v Speaker 1>to Get Ahead in Wartime Russia and it's online now.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, Labour has offered a concession to

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<v Speaker 1>the greens of native forest logging in a bid to

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<v Speaker 1>get its environmental reforms through This week The offer, according

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<v Speaker 1>to the ABC, would mean logging of native forests would

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<v Speaker 1>need to comply with new environmental standards within three years.

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<v Speaker 1>Green Senator Sarah Hanson Young they said she needs to

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<v Speaker 1>look at the details, but that she doesn't think a

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<v Speaker 1>timeline of three years to protect native forests is acceptable.

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<v Speaker 1>And the Bureau of Meteorology spent ninety six million dollars

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<v Speaker 1>on its website redesign. The new bureau chief, Doctor Stewart Minchin,

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<v Speaker 1>has confirmed the website has been criticized for being hard

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<v Speaker 1>to navigate and making ready placed stains on the radar

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<v Speaker 1>map difficult to understand. The bomb has been under fire

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<v Speaker 1>regularly since twenty twenty two, when it attempted to rebrand

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<v Speaker 1>as the Bureau. Its new leader, Doctor Stewart Minchin, told

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<v Speaker 1>nine newspapers it's important to be transparent about the things

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<v Speaker 1>management at the Bureau of Meteorology has got wrong. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>Daniel James. It's is seven am. Thanks for listening.