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Speaker 1: Approache production.

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Speaker 2: For the record.

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Speaker 1: I don't try and make you uncomfortable for the record.

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Speaker 1: You ain't trying world and stuff for your right photo

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Speaker 1: record lab on me going all the way the way

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Speaker 1: for the record. Ain't trying to link, No trying to

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Speaker 1: waste stuff.

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Speaker 3: For the record, for the record, for the for the record,

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Speaker 3: for the red for the record record for the record.

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Speaker 1: Don't try and make you uncomfortable.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to season seventeen, Episode two of The Clink. What

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Speaker 2: a fantastic season it has been already with kicked off

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Speaker 2: with I just want to say a massive thank you

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Speaker 2: to everybody who does jump over, to all all our

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Speaker 2: new listeners, thank you very much. We are aiming for

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Speaker 2: five million downloads this season, and I can guarantee you

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Speaker 2: it will happen at what stage I'm unsure, but possibly

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Speaker 2: halfway through. I'm counting on. Big shout out to our sponsor,

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Speaker 2: Sideway Surf. Without you, we wouldn't be able to do

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Speaker 2: this on the weekly and deliver you the best stories

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Speaker 2: without further ado. We have a wonderful lady, Yes, a lady,

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Speaker 2: another female guest coming to the Clink now, this amazing woman.

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Speaker 2: And I say amazing because to obviously have gone through

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Speaker 2: what she's gone through and done what she's done. You've

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Speaker 2: got to have some sort of brain. And I'm actually

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Speaker 2: quite intrigued and this story will open up and I'm

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Speaker 2: sure give you guys a lot more information, but there's

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Speaker 2: obviously a great story of positivity off the back of it.

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Speaker 2: Today's guest Devin Hammond. She is somebody whom has not

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Speaker 2: long been released from jail. She was sentenced to I

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Speaker 2: believe four four and a half years, with a bottom

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Speaker 2: sentence of two and a half and all for a

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Speaker 2: hundred and five million dollar fraud.

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Speaker 4: Devin, Welcome clean, Thank you, Brent, Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: Wow. I've met some people in my time, and I've

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Speaker 2: definitely had some people who have been involved in some

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Speaker 2: large amounts of money. Over the two hundred guests that

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Speaker 2: I've had. One hundred and five million is a massive,

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Speaker 2: massive figure. Wow.

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Speaker 4: It's yeah, it's huge, and it definitely wasn't I think

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Speaker 4: until after I was arrested, and particularly having a look

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Speaker 4: at the case in the media, that you really begin

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Speaker 4: to grasp the amount that the fraud ended up being.

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Speaker 4: And I think one of the the worst things to

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Speaker 4: happen was the desensitization to that monetary figure throughout the

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Speaker 4: years of all of this going down. So yes, it's

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Speaker 4: a lot of money.

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Speaker 2: It is a lot of money. And look, you know,

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Speaker 2: we don't condone here at the Clink. We're not here

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Speaker 2: to praise and promote anybody's crimes, as everybody that does know,

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Speaker 2: these are stories of people's lives. So for the new

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Speaker 2: listeners out there, don't feel that we are here to

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Speaker 2: glorify anybody's actions or crimes. As I said, this is

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Speaker 2: their journey, this is their story, and this is the

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Speaker 2: Clink where there is no bullshit. We don't pull no punches.

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Speaker 2: Nothing is scripted, and the people that come on here

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Speaker 2: genuinely have and do make great changes in their life

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Speaker 2: to inspire others. Today we will learn how and why

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Speaker 2: and the great things that Devon is wanting to do

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Speaker 2: with her life from here on out. And I'm sure

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Speaker 2: she has some quality tools to be able to give

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Speaker 2: to our guests, Devin, for many of our guests that

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Speaker 2: wouldn't have known anything about your matter, especially yourself. I mean,

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Speaker 2: I'm looking at quite a young woman. I'm not looking

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Speaker 2: at somebody who is an older woman, And to me,

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Speaker 2: I'm thinking Okay, you've got to be pretty switched on

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Speaker 2: to the age that you are and be able to

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Speaker 2: be in such a sophisticated network of people obviously one

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Speaker 2: for trust and two intelligent wise. But most of all,

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Speaker 2: I like our conversation that we had prior to coming

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Speaker 2: here today about where you on a head with your life,

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Speaker 2: and I feel that with that intelligence and ability that

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Speaker 2: you can achieve great things. So that's where we want

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Speaker 2: to get to in today's story. But first of all,

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Speaker 2: let's take everybody back to who you are. Where did

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Speaker 2: it begin, Let's go back to where you grew up?

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Speaker 2: What it would write?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, Brent, So, I was actually born in Zimbabwe.

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Speaker 4: So I immigrated to Australia when I was eight years

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Speaker 4: old in two thousand and one. So I'm not very

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Speaker 4: old now. No, I'm only thirty one, and I think

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Speaker 4: looking back now, and this is only upon a huge

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Speaker 4: amount of reflection, obviously prior to prison while I was

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Speaker 4: on bail and then being in prison and afterwards as well.

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Speaker 4: But I think growing up in a country like Zimbabwe,

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Speaker 4: it definitely contributed to how I was or how I

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Speaker 4: am as a person in terms of, like you say, ambitious, disciplined.

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Speaker 4: And I don't know if a lot of people do

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Speaker 4: know much about Zimbabwe, but basically I went to boarding

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Speaker 4: school when I was seven years old, so I would

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Speaker 4: be at school day to Friday and then i'd only

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Speaker 4: be home on the weekend. And it's super strict over there.

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Speaker 4: It's very different to most schools, particularly public schools in Australia.

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Speaker 4: You know, sport is compulsory. You don't have much of

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Speaker 4: a choice in terms of yeah, not doing sport or

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Speaker 4: I guess, extra activities outside of school. And there's a

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Speaker 4: very big difference in sort of like the teacher student

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Speaker 4: relationships in terms of you just you absolutely don't, you know,

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Speaker 4: talk back to them. I remember in primary school I

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Speaker 4: got soap put in my mouth from a teacher because

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Speaker 4: you know, they don't have the rules and regulations like

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Speaker 4: what you do in this country.

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Speaker 5: It's just.

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Speaker 2: And so it was definitely something that was putting in Yes, yeah.

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Speaker 5: For sure, it's definitely still old school.

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Speaker 4: I know my brother got the cane a lot at

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Speaker 4: boarding school and things like that too, so it's still

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Speaker 4: sort of it definitely still happens over there, or more

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Speaker 4: recently than it does here. But yeah, so I immigrated

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Speaker 4: in two thousand and one with my family, and my

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Speaker 4: parents did that basically in the hope for a better

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Speaker 4: life there. There's a lot of civil unrest over there

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Speaker 4: and still is, and if you are I guess like

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Speaker 4: a business owner or a farmer in particular things like that,

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Speaker 4: you kind of had a target on your back in

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Speaker 4: terms of, you know, people fighting for your land and

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Speaker 4: things like that. So it's brutal, you know, lots of

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Speaker 4: violence and murders, and that was kind of creeping into

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Speaker 4: our lives in certain ways. And my parents definitely went

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Speaker 4: through similar experiences in terms of violence and threats and

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Speaker 4: things like that.

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Speaker 2: So I've actually seen documentaries on the country and their

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Speaker 2: murder rate is through the roof and there are no

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Speaker 2: go zones especially, and I like, without getting into any

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Speaker 2: racial sort of conversation, but obviously within white sort of

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Speaker 2: going into color areas and stuff like that, a lot

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Speaker 2: of gang activity and a lot of a lot of

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Speaker 2: corruption and definitely beyond and I mean for a young woman,

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Speaker 2: I couldn't imagine how hard that would be to grow

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Speaker 2: up there for your mummy then you know what I mean,

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Speaker 2: let alone yourself. That is something that really sort of

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Speaker 2: I guess hits home when you look at you know

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Speaker 2: where you've come from, and coming to Australia from somewhere

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Speaker 2: you know, I guess the only way you'd put it

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Speaker 2: is in a country of survival.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 4: And things are just done so differently there in terms

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Speaker 4: of business, just in terms of the way of life,

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Speaker 4: it's really different. So thankfully I wasn't too old when

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Speaker 4: I did move here, so I did a lot of

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Speaker 4: my schooling in Australia, which for sure helped in terms

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Speaker 4: of fitting in getting to know the culture better and

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Speaker 4: just yeah, not being out of school where it was

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Speaker 4: harder to make friends and things like that. So yeah,

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Speaker 4: I started, I started primary school here and then kept

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Speaker 4: going with like my sporting and things like that. I

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Speaker 4: was a really keen swimmer, so I was a very

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Speaker 4: competitive swimmer when I was younger, so that, I guess

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Speaker 4: as well instilled a lot of discipline and drive in me.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: So I was commuting actually from like Woollongong to Sydney

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Speaker 4: which is about two hours on the train, and in

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Speaker 4: the corporate world once I graduated and things like that,

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Speaker 4: and I liked it. But the commuting is like soul

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Speaker 4: draining it's really difficult. So I call that quits and

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Speaker 4: then went and just worked locally, and then I ended

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Speaker 4: up working for my parents. They had an engineering business,

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Speaker 4: so yeah, that's what I was doing. And then I

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Speaker 4: was traveling with a girlfriend of mine. We did like

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Speaker 4: a europe trip and yeah, it was just doing this. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: life is super normal for me, super normal, And I

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Speaker 4: think that's one of the biggest things as well. It's like,

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Speaker 4: not everyone who lands in jail or finds themselves in

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Speaker 4: the justice system or even a criminal matter. We certainly

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Speaker 4: don't all come from specific backgrounds or stereotypical backgrounds that

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Speaker 4: some people may presume we do. But for me, that's

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Speaker 4: that definitely opened my eyes, you know, during that time

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Speaker 4: as well. But yeah, so I was working for them

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Speaker 4: and then unfortunately their business had to go into liquidation.

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Speaker 4: So one of my girlfriends, she was still working in

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Speaker 4: the city and she knew of someone who was looking

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Speaker 4: for someone else to help with with adminted accounts kind

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Speaker 4: of thing, and that's how I fell into the job

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Speaker 4: that I did. I was twenty one when I started

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Speaker 4: working in this job that I was and yeah, it

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Speaker 4: started off pretty normal, Like I found it difficult to

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Speaker 4: get my head around. It wasn't sort of processes that

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Speaker 4: I had come across before, But I guess for me,

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Speaker 4: I learned pretty quickly and can pick up on things,

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Speaker 4: and that's sort of what happened. And yeah, basically, the

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Speaker 4: longer I was there, the better I got at my job,

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Speaker 4: the more I was trusted, I was privy to different

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Speaker 4: information as I was there longer, and eventually I basically

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Speaker 4: knew that hang on a second, this isn't all you

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Speaker 4: know straighty one eighty or how most people do things,

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Speaker 4: because sometimes I think to myself, like, you're freaking idiot,

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Speaker 4: like what were you thinking? How do you not have

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Speaker 4: a moment that you're like what am I doing? Am

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Speaker 4: I going ahead with this?

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Speaker 5: Or am I not?

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Speaker 2: And do I resign or just walk away and just

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Speaker 2: my business and.

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Speaker 4: Just And it was never it was never a situation

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Speaker 4: of like okay, like this is what's happening. Are you

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Speaker 4: with us? Or are you're not kind of thing. It

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Speaker 4: was very much like drips of water in a bucket

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Speaker 4: and it's getting fuller and fuller, and you know, little

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Speaker 4: bits here and little bits there, and then next thing

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Speaker 4: you know, the bucket is full and overflowing and the

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Speaker 4: AFP and knocking off my door. So I think that's

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Speaker 4: what made it really difficult not to kind of take

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Speaker 4: the rose colored glasses off and take a real look

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Speaker 4: at Hang on a second, what does this mean for me?

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Speaker 4: And just because you're not the one always making the

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Speaker 4: decisions and telling everyone else what to do sort of thing.

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Speaker 4: If you're there and you can see what's going on

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Speaker 4: and you're still helping the clogs turn so to speak, well,

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Speaker 4: you correct, you're you're involved.

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Speaker 2: And this is this is the thing in Australian law.

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Speaker 2: You know, many years ago, a get away driver and

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Speaker 2: a bank robberly a robbery would only be charged if

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Speaker 2: they were caught with the stolen car and an accessory.

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Speaker 2: But if a bank robber was to leave that vehicle

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Speaker 2: and there was two accomplices and there was shots fired

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Speaker 2: and someone passed in that robbery, there was a murder

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Speaker 2: charge which everybody would be charged in company. And that's

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Speaker 2: it goes across the board now across all matters, you know,

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Speaker 2: like if you're if you are, like yourself, a part

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Speaker 2: of a chain or a network of persons involved in

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Speaker 2: any crime, then you know the duty of as they

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Speaker 2: call it, the duty of care. That wonderful word I'm

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Speaker 2: sure you heard many times in jail. Yes, not that

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Speaker 2: there's fucking anything done with it. You have got whatever,

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Speaker 2: but no, the bottom line being that you are a

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Speaker 2: part of a criminal organization which then holds you liable

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Speaker 2: because at some stage you should have taken the initiative

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Speaker 2: and gone no, this is wrong, or they expect you

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Speaker 2: to go and give everyone up and be the little mile,

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Speaker 2: which you did have a mile in your group. And

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Speaker 2: I believe that you know, for quite a long time

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Speaker 2: there was surveillance done internally, rugs and cameras, and you

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Speaker 2: had no idea, did.

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Speaker 5: You no no idea?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's crazy looking at it now, and you know,

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Speaker 4: once your brief of evidence is served and you can

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Speaker 4: see everything that.

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Speaker 5: Has been.

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Speaker 4: Recorded or yeah, surveillance that whole time, it's pretty eerie.

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Speaker 2: I think it is, and I think people, yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: not until you present it with something like that, you know,

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Speaker 2: when you realize how deep into your own privacy that

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Speaker 2: things can get and conversations that are totally irrelevant to

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Speaker 2: what the matter is about, but are very personal within

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Speaker 2: your own space or partner space or yeah, for sure,

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Speaker 2: and you know, like it can turn a lot of

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Speaker 2: people very paranoid to even want to leave the house,

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Speaker 2: let alone go to the shop, sit in their car,

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Speaker 2: pick up a phone call.

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Speaker 5: Definitely massive, massive effect and.

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Speaker 4: That definitely had it like it had that effect on me.

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Speaker 2: Was it your home as well that was bugged or

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Speaker 2: just your office?

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Speaker 4: Not my home, just my office and my phone. I

254
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Speaker 4: think some some others maybe had their cars done as well, possibly,

255
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Speaker 4: but yeah, for me it was it was my phone

256
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Speaker 4: and enough.

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Speaker 5: I always thought as well.

258
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Speaker 4: I always wondered if when I was on bail, I

259
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Speaker 4: was like, is it now my home? So yeah, like

260
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Speaker 4: you say, with the paranoia, that for sure is you know,

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Speaker 4: it has an effect. For me, it was while I

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Speaker 4: was on bail, which was for three and a half years,

263
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Speaker 4: and then even when I got home and you know,

264
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Speaker 4: you're on parole, so you still have all of these

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Speaker 4: conditions that you have to meet and you know, restrictions

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Speaker 4: on you. Yeah, you you definitely go the extra mile

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Speaker 4: not to fuck it up.

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Speaker 2: How and I don't want to just sort of ask

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Speaker 2: the obvious, but how did you feel when things sort

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Speaker 2: of come to a crunch and you know you're in

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Speaker 2: cuffs and you're going into custody. I mean, I know

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Speaker 2: myself and many that would listen to the clink know

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Speaker 2: that feeling. I never forget the time where I was

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Speaker 2: arrested for importation in a controlled delivery. You know, I

275
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Speaker 2: turned up. I actually had known that it was off,

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Speaker 2: but I went through with it because it's just what

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Speaker 2: I had to do to shut it down, so to speak.

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Speaker 2: And you know, next minute, I'm hog tied in the

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Speaker 2: middle of winter, facing gravel into the road, pitch black,

280
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Speaker 2: and here I am thinking, where the fuck have you

281
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Speaker 2: all come from? Because there was no trees, no roofs.

282
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Speaker 2: It was an industrial area that was quite ah lo.

283
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Speaker 2: It was just flat, you know what I mean, like

284
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Speaker 2: industrial block. But these these cars and these lights and

285
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Speaker 2: these gorillas just come out of nowhere swinging and mate.

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Speaker 2: I was just like, fuck, this is this is a

287
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Speaker 2: lot and it is It's a it's a smack in

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Speaker 2: the mouth. It's one that you just go Holy Tom Dooley,

289
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Speaker 2: like your whole world just goes shit. I'm you know,

290
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Speaker 2: zip up and just suck it up. That's just the

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Speaker 2: way it goes.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, Like the way that I try and describe it,

293
00:18:12,921 --> 00:18:16,360
Speaker 4: and this was I could never really put it into

294
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Speaker 4: words prior and actually while I was like inside, I

295
00:18:20,721 --> 00:18:24,521
Speaker 4: read a lot of books and I was reading a

296
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Speaker 4: Lance Armstrong Brooks. So I don't know how credible he

297
00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:30,161
Speaker 4: is or not, but anyway, but he was talking about

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Speaker 4: his cancer diagnosis and the way that he explained it

299
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Speaker 4: when he was sitting in his doctor's office and they said,

300
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,321
Speaker 4: you know, gave him the results. He said, it feels

301
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Speaker 4: like the blood in your body starts turning the other way.

302
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Speaker 4: And I was like, that's such a good feeling, like

303
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Speaker 4: such a good way to have it. Yeah, because it's

304
00:18:51,360 --> 00:18:55,840
Speaker 4: like you're in shock, You're you're like numb, you like,

305
00:18:56,321 --> 00:18:58,961
Speaker 4: you know, have those cold sweats kind of thing. And

306
00:19:00,441 --> 00:19:02,721
Speaker 4: I just like, he feels so lost, and I think

307
00:19:02,801 --> 00:19:05,001
Speaker 4: that's a really good way to describe it. It feels like

308
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,321
Speaker 4: the blood starts like flowing in the opposite direction and

309
00:19:08,360 --> 00:19:10,400
Speaker 4: your body is just like you literally feel like you're

310
00:19:10,481 --> 00:19:12,680
Speaker 4: upside down kind of thing, or like have no idea

311
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Speaker 4: what it's.

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Speaker 2: It's not a nice feeling. And I've said many will understand,

313
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Speaker 2: but I mean for me and I'm sure others, you know,

314
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Speaker 2: your first instinct at that stage is I'm arrested. I'm

315
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Speaker 2: not going home and in trouble. So I'll just shut

316
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Speaker 2: the fucking mouth and just go through the process. I mean,

317
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Speaker 2: I've never put in a statement never, I just refuse it.

318
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Speaker 2: It's just something that you know, I don't want to

319
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Speaker 2: talk to you. You've arrested me. I'll see in court.

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Speaker 2: That's it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's such like you. It's such a

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Speaker 4: thing that you like see in movies. You know, you

323
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Speaker 4: have the right to remain silence, but you're not really

324
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Speaker 4: listening because you're just thinking what the fuck with the

325
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Speaker 4: fuck and to actually and like for someone like me

326
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Speaker 4: who I've never had any like running with the police

327
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Speaker 4: before or anything like that.

328
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Speaker 2: So and it was the AFP, and it was the AFP,

329
00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:07,200
Speaker 2: which I had the same thing, like they're full on.

330
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Speaker 4: They are full on, definitely, and you know, thankfully I

331
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Speaker 4: could speak to my solicitor prior who obviously they you know,

332
00:20:15,120 --> 00:20:19,001
Speaker 4: advise you don't say anything at that time. But yeah,

333
00:20:19,001 --> 00:20:22,240
Speaker 4: for people to actually realize at that point that you

334
00:20:22,521 --> 00:20:24,840
Speaker 4: do not have to say anything and that you know

335
00:20:25,001 --> 00:20:29,241
Speaker 4: you it's best not to, but you're not thinking straight.

336
00:20:30,360 --> 00:20:32,641
Speaker 4: So yeah, it's like it's it's so scary and foreign

337
00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:33,441
Speaker 4: and unknown.

338
00:20:34,281 --> 00:20:36,080
Speaker 2: Did you have any did you have any like and

339
00:20:36,120 --> 00:20:38,241
Speaker 2: I know you obviously well I'm not going to say

340
00:20:38,281 --> 00:20:40,521
Speaker 2: I know, because that's not something that I should say,

341
00:20:41,001 --> 00:20:44,961
Speaker 2: But did you know the amounts that were coming through,

342
00:20:45,041 --> 00:20:47,281
Speaker 2: like to that figure of around about one hundred million?

343
00:20:47,360 --> 00:20:51,361
Speaker 2: Was that something called within the MILLI multi multimillions.

344
00:20:51,321 --> 00:20:56,561
Speaker 4: I within the multi multi millions. Yes, I would record,

345
00:20:56,721 --> 00:20:58,761
Speaker 4: you know, figures and stuff like that because I'd be

346
00:20:58,801 --> 00:21:00,640
Speaker 4: asked for them and it was just easier for me

347
00:21:00,721 --> 00:21:03,321
Speaker 4: to kind of keep on top of things. So yes,

348
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,360
Speaker 4: I knew it was a lot.

349
00:21:06,001 --> 00:21:10,680
Speaker 2: And how and how does someone like yourself? And please

350
00:21:10,681 --> 00:21:12,480
Speaker 2: feel free at any stage just to say to me,

351
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 2: I don't want to answer, and I'm not going to

352
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:15,681
Speaker 2: put you in a position. I know that we've dealt

353
00:21:15,721 --> 00:21:18,920
Speaker 2: with this and this is now moving forward, so I'm

354
00:21:19,041 --> 00:21:22,041
Speaker 2: hopefully you're okay to speak and be open. We don't

355
00:21:22,041 --> 00:21:24,920
Speaker 2: need to know names and places and times, but you know,

356
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,200
Speaker 2: like when we're talking about that sort of money, Like,

357
00:21:28,481 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 2: I'll be straight up, if I was in a position

358
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Speaker 2: and I knew someone was taking one hundred and five

359
00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:39,281
Speaker 2: million dollars and I was in some way, I guess

360
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,201
Speaker 2: at first you didn't really have a chance to say

361
00:21:42,241 --> 00:21:43,761
Speaker 2: that you didn't want to be involved because you were

362
00:21:43,801 --> 00:21:46,200
Speaker 2: just automatically brought into it. It was a part of

363
00:21:46,241 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 2: your job description, I guess, wasn't it. But knowing that

364
00:21:50,360 --> 00:21:53,120
Speaker 2: you know, and look, people are going to say, ah, yeah,

365
00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:54,881
Speaker 2: well that's wrong and you should just put your hand

366
00:21:54,961 --> 00:21:57,201
Speaker 2: up and yeah, okay. Look for the people out there

367
00:21:57,281 --> 00:22:00,041
Speaker 2: that are on that path and haven't got any I

368
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 2: guess experience of being put in that position or lived

369
00:22:03,441 --> 00:22:07,961
Speaker 2: a life where you know opportunity sometimes it's it weighs

370
00:22:08,001 --> 00:22:14,321
Speaker 2: greater than you know. I guess the honesty policy. I

371
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:16,481
Speaker 2: know many years ago for me that if I knew

372
00:22:16,481 --> 00:22:19,440
Speaker 2: someone was earning one hundred and five million, I'd be

373
00:22:19,481 --> 00:22:21,521
Speaker 2: taking a chunk of that myself, especially if I was

374
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,801
Speaker 2: dragging me through it. How did you feel knowing that

375
00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:27,880
Speaker 2: you know this money was being made by a group

376
00:22:28,001 --> 00:22:32,720
Speaker 2: or a much bigger sort of picture, and you're just

377
00:22:33,241 --> 00:22:36,761
Speaker 2: a piece in that puzzle. That's and I realize, and

378
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 2: quote me if I'm wrong that you did make something

379
00:22:39,481 --> 00:22:42,640
Speaker 2: from it, and you know, look, it's up to you

380
00:22:42,681 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 2: if you want to disclose that.

381
00:22:43,681 --> 00:22:43,880
Speaker 5: I'm not.

382
00:22:44,120 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 2: I've seen what I've seen, but I'm not going to

383
00:22:46,321 --> 00:22:50,041
Speaker 2: make those figures announce. That's up to you, but I

384
00:22:50,041 --> 00:22:52,961
Speaker 2: don't think it was anywhere near enough to be doing,

385
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 2: to be doing four years or two and you know,

386
00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:01,801
Speaker 2: for someone to knowingly taking advantage of you, which I

387
00:23:01,801 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 2: think that's the bottom line. These people above you obviously

388
00:23:05,481 --> 00:23:08,161
Speaker 2: knew and were well and truly involved. I mean what

389
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:10,921
Speaker 2: it was there that was the head of the tax

390
00:23:10,961 --> 00:23:14,441
Speaker 2: department's son or something involved in a lawyer like These

391
00:23:14,481 --> 00:23:19,281
Speaker 2: are prominent educated people who knew exactly what they were doing.

392
00:23:20,360 --> 00:23:23,481
Speaker 4: And I think that's why I kept going as well

393
00:23:23,481 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 4: because or didn't leave, was because I trusted these people

394
00:23:28,521 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 4: in terms of their positions, their qualifications.

395
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what about to say with the people that

396
00:23:34,001 --> 00:23:38,281
Speaker 2: you're working around, obviously very intellectual, did you feel that

397
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,881
Speaker 2: you guys maybe were a step ahead and that this

398
00:23:40,921 --> 00:23:43,521
Speaker 2: is possibly something that would be worth doing.

399
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:49,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I trusted the fact that, you know,

400
00:23:49,120 --> 00:23:52,281
Speaker 4: if it was said that this is what the plan is,

401
00:23:52,481 --> 00:23:54,641
Speaker 4: this is how it's going to work out, that that's

402
00:23:54,681 --> 00:23:59,121
Speaker 4: how it would work out for sure. So and certainly

403
00:23:59,120 --> 00:24:02,360
Speaker 4: in terms of money and things like that, I was.

404
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,400
Speaker 4: I was on a good wage, that's for sure. But

405
00:24:06,120 --> 00:24:11,400
Speaker 4: as you say, it was nowhere near anything you know

406
00:24:11,481 --> 00:24:16,160
Speaker 4: that some others benefited from and it was absolutely not

407
00:24:16,321 --> 00:24:22,281
Speaker 4: worth the heartache and time and struggle of going to prison.

408
00:24:21,961 --> 00:24:24,761
Speaker 2: For even legal costs. Your legal costs would be it

409
00:24:24,761 --> 00:24:26,601
Speaker 2: would have been three times more than what you.

410
00:24:26,561 --> 00:24:31,121
Speaker 4: Were one hundred that's definitely you know fact as well.

411
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,241
Speaker 4: My legal fees were you know, paid for privately. And

412
00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 4: to put that kind of stress on my family that

413
00:24:39,321 --> 00:24:41,241
Speaker 4: certainly wasn't me who could come up with the money

414
00:24:41,241 --> 00:24:44,921
Speaker 4: because my bank accounts were frozen. I couldn't do anything,

415
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,721
Speaker 4: my assets were gone. So to I guess hold that

416
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:54,001
Speaker 4: guilt and shame to you know, for the fact that

417
00:24:54,041 --> 00:24:57,521
Speaker 4: my family and my partner and extended family had to

418
00:24:57,561 --> 00:25:01,321
Speaker 4: help me immensely with that is really it's difficult because

419
00:25:01,321 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 4: it doesn't just become about you, it's you know that

420
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,880
Speaker 4: it's so much, so many more people in the picture.

421
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 5: Yeah.

422
00:25:08,281 --> 00:25:10,361
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that that's something that we all

423
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:14,561
Speaker 2: forget when we're in that position and we see that opportunity.

424
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,840
Speaker 2: Sometimes we're blinded by the domino effect. And you know,

425
00:25:19,001 --> 00:25:22,081
Speaker 2: I think it's any in human nature to take opportunities

426
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,281
Speaker 2: and you know, test waters and look, I don't care

427
00:25:25,321 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 2: what anybody says everybody's got something in their closet, you

428
00:25:28,120 --> 00:25:30,041
Speaker 2: know where the people want to admit it, and people

429
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:32,961
Speaker 2: want to sit there and be judgmental, Go ahead and judge,

430
00:25:32,961 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 2: But I reckon when you look in the mirror, you

431
00:25:34,761 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 2: know damn well that there's there's things there that you

432
00:25:37,281 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 2: know you hide from the world, and look, you know,

433
00:25:41,281 --> 00:25:45,001
Speaker 2: that's life. People are always going to be pointing the

434
00:25:45,001 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 2: finger or judgment. I mean, hey, I've been on bail

435
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:48,961
Speaker 2: and I still am for four and a half years

436
00:25:49,001 --> 00:25:51,041
Speaker 2: from something sixteen years ago that I had nothing to

437
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:54,521
Speaker 2: do with, you know, so you know, without going into

438
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:56,841
Speaker 2: those details. It a little bit over the media very

439
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 2: soon because I'm going back to court in April again.

440
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,321
Speaker 2: But yeah, you know, we're talking hundreds of thousands of

441
00:26:01,360 --> 00:26:05,161
Speaker 2: dollars in legal costs over that time, countless hours of

442
00:26:05,201 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 2: loss and disappointment for my children, for my family, the

443
00:26:09,521 --> 00:26:12,041
Speaker 2: destruction of a relationship like so much.

444
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 4: Can even imagine one hundred percent like having to go

445
00:26:16,721 --> 00:26:21,120
Speaker 4: through this while you have children who you know are

446
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 4: still in your care, who you're still care or not,

447
00:26:23,721 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 4: you know, whether they're adults or still you know, living

448
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,561
Speaker 4: with you. That would be so difficult, and we put

449
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 4: off having kids for seven years because it was just like,

450
00:26:34,281 --> 00:26:37,281
Speaker 4: there's no way that I can do this while you know,

451
00:26:37,360 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 4: going through this huge amount of uncertainty. And I always

452
00:26:40,961 --> 00:26:45,281
Speaker 4: felt so hot, like so horrible for the women inside

453
00:26:45,321 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 4: who were missing babies and young kids.

454
00:26:48,120 --> 00:26:52,001
Speaker 2: And isn't it funny, Like I don't think people realize

455
00:26:52,241 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 2: and I'm sure you can talk about this. I think

456
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,001
Speaker 2: it's something we should touch on from a female's point

457
00:26:57,001 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 2: of view, especially someone who has experienced jail, that you know,

458
00:27:00,921 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 2: women who are pregnant or in the early stages of

459
00:27:04,041 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 2: pregnancy whilst in a detached from their babies within weeks,

460
00:27:11,561 --> 00:27:13,441
Speaker 2: is in an or it's a month.

461
00:27:13,481 --> 00:27:15,801
Speaker 5: It can be yeah, like not even it can be.

462
00:27:16,120 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 2: It's actually heartbreaking and so sad what women have to

463
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,441
Speaker 2: endure whilst falling pregnant or being pregnant and in custody.

464
00:27:25,001 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 2: I mean, how was that to know and see as

465
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 2: a woman, Because I feel that it's important that we

466
00:27:29,801 --> 00:27:33,640
Speaker 2: share that with our listeners out there to understand.

467
00:27:33,801 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 4: You know, I know I spent time with the girl

468
00:27:38,001 --> 00:27:42,521
Speaker 4: and she I think she maybe got like a few

469
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,761
Speaker 4: days with her baby when she had her inside, and

470
00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:50,161
Speaker 4: so when she was leaving, she she didn't even know

471
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,120
Speaker 4: her baby that she was going out to and same

472
00:27:53,201 --> 00:27:56,481
Speaker 4: with her baby not knowing her, you know, and they

473
00:27:56,521 --> 00:28:00,281
Speaker 4: can be three five years old, whatever the sentence is.

474
00:28:01,321 --> 00:28:04,801
Speaker 4: You know, they've missed all of that. And I know

475
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:09,241
Speaker 4: that even in the New South Wales prison systems there

476
00:28:09,241 --> 00:28:12,521
Speaker 4: were some facilities for women and their children, but even

477
00:28:12,521 --> 00:28:17,721
Speaker 4: those were getting shut down and there were no resources

478
00:28:17,761 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 4: for them. And it's just it's a fact of the

479
00:28:22,921 --> 00:28:26,281
Speaker 4: matter that we need to be looking after these women

480
00:28:26,360 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 4: with their children. Yes, it's not an ideal situation, but

481
00:28:30,481 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 4: it isn't.

482
00:28:31,441 --> 00:28:34,561
Speaker 2: Look I'm not sitting here saying everybody should feel sorry

483
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:36,561
Speaker 2: for you know. I mean, we all make choices and

484
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: we all know where it's going to end up when

485
00:28:38,041 --> 00:28:40,761
Speaker 2: it comes tom we got to take ownership for our actions.

486
00:28:40,801 --> 00:28:43,921
Speaker 2: And that's not what this is about. This is you know,

487
00:28:44,001 --> 00:28:47,921
Speaker 2: talking about I guess humanity, you know, like I know,

488
00:28:48,001 --> 00:28:51,201
Speaker 2: for a factor, as a male, I was, I really

489
00:28:51,281 --> 00:28:55,161
Speaker 2: jacked up. I ended up in Segro for months on end.

490
00:28:55,521 --> 00:28:59,521
Speaker 2: And during that time, my partner, she was four months

491
00:28:59,521 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 2: pregnant when I was arrested, and I was looking at

492
00:29:02,001 --> 00:29:04,841
Speaker 2: double figures. So you know, my my romand time was

493
00:29:05,081 --> 00:29:09,720
Speaker 2: fighte full on. I was not an approachable person, not

494
00:29:09,801 --> 00:29:13,681
Speaker 2: at all. I was very, very aggressive, very disruptive in

495
00:29:13,721 --> 00:29:16,761
Speaker 2: the system, which did me no favors by any means

496
00:29:16,801 --> 00:29:18,881
Speaker 2: on either side, because I mean, you don't go in

497
00:29:18,921 --> 00:29:23,001
Speaker 2: there the wind and you don't upset the screws because

498
00:29:23,041 --> 00:29:25,001
Speaker 2: next minute the squad's coming in and you're getting turned

499
00:29:25,081 --> 00:29:26,721
Speaker 2: upside down. Next we minuk, you're sitting in see grow

500
00:29:26,801 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 2: and no one gives a fuck because you're getting stripped.

501
00:29:29,241 --> 00:29:31,641
Speaker 2: The screws get stripped from there. From the main you're

502
00:29:31,681 --> 00:29:33,641
Speaker 2: the last people to get fed, last person to get

503
00:29:33,641 --> 00:29:35,641
Speaker 2: your shower, last person to get your phone calls. So

504
00:29:36,521 --> 00:29:40,961
Speaker 2: you are basically left with nothing. And I didn't find

505
00:29:40,961 --> 00:29:44,281
Speaker 2: out immediately when my son was born, and I missed

506
00:29:44,281 --> 00:29:45,881
Speaker 2: out on the first three and a half years of

507
00:29:45,921 --> 00:29:49,441
Speaker 2: his life. So I can relate to, you know, coming out,

508
00:29:49,481 --> 00:29:52,521
Speaker 2: and I vowed, I asked not to have any visits

509
00:29:52,681 --> 00:29:54,761
Speaker 2: for the last I was there on the Gold Coast

510
00:29:54,761 --> 00:29:57,801
Speaker 2: and I was down in Bathist for the last months,

511
00:29:58,361 --> 00:30:01,601
Speaker 2: so I said, no, no visits, like it's not right

512
00:30:01,641 --> 00:30:04,921
Speaker 2: to the kids. When I was at Empty and Graft

513
00:30:05,121 --> 00:30:08,641
Speaker 2: and you know, the closer sort of places that was manageable,

514
00:30:08,681 --> 00:30:11,201
Speaker 2: but once you sort of hit Sydney and then south

515
00:30:11,241 --> 00:30:14,401
Speaker 2: of Sydney or west, you've you know, it's not fair

516
00:30:14,441 --> 00:30:18,321
Speaker 2: to the family. So for me, as somebody who understands

517
00:30:18,441 --> 00:30:21,041
Speaker 2: as a male, what it was like to have that

518
00:30:21,121 --> 00:30:23,801
Speaker 2: detachment and then coming home years later, it's like, who

519
00:30:23,881 --> 00:30:26,641
Speaker 2: are you? Who are you to tell me what to do?

520
00:30:26,681 --> 00:30:28,281
Speaker 2: Who are you to ask for a hug and a

521
00:30:28,361 --> 00:30:32,921
Speaker 2: kiss and that that natural connection where you know, you

522
00:30:33,321 --> 00:30:36,121
Speaker 2: embrace that moment you hold each other. It was very

523
00:30:36,321 --> 00:30:39,521
Speaker 2: very very hard, very hard. So I couldn't imagine from

524
00:30:39,521 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 2: a woman's point of a mother who's given birth to

525
00:30:43,321 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: the child and the child being removed how detrimental that

526
00:30:46,481 --> 00:30:48,321
Speaker 2: it beat it both yeah.

527
00:30:48,161 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 4: One hundred percent and very sympathetic about it then, but

528
00:30:51,521 --> 00:30:53,961
Speaker 4: even more so now that I am a mother and

529
00:30:54,881 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 4: now I'm just like, oh okay, now I really am

530
00:30:57,881 --> 00:31:03,881
Speaker 4: just cannot cannot even get how them as mothers can

531
00:31:03,961 --> 00:31:06,401
Speaker 4: cope in that situation. And when you know, if you

532
00:31:06,641 --> 00:31:10,921
Speaker 4: are in at the time COVID lockdowns or you're still

533
00:31:10,961 --> 00:31:12,801
Speaker 4: going through induction, or how.

534
00:31:12,721 --> 00:31:15,881
Speaker 2: Bad was that I come in on the back and

535
00:31:15,961 --> 00:31:17,720
Speaker 2: I come in and got remanded on the back end

536
00:31:17,721 --> 00:31:19,841
Speaker 2: of it, and it was just we're on a twenty

537
00:31:19,921 --> 00:31:20,201
Speaker 2: and four.

538
00:31:20,241 --> 00:31:20,961
Speaker 5: What a shit show.

539
00:31:21,521 --> 00:31:23,881
Speaker 2: We were let out for four hours, and it varied

540
00:31:24,121 --> 00:31:26,161
Speaker 2: depending on the landing and the screws to whether or

541
00:31:26,201 --> 00:31:28,001
Speaker 2: not you've got the top landing on the bottom landing,

542
00:31:28,041 --> 00:31:30,401
Speaker 2: And each week it would rotate, so you might get

543
00:31:30,441 --> 00:31:33,081
Speaker 2: four hours after lunch or four hours in the morning.

544
00:31:33,081 --> 00:31:35,241
Speaker 2: But either way you were down twenty hours a day.

545
00:31:35,321 --> 00:31:39,281
Speaker 2: So it was worse than sego and two out in

546
00:31:39,281 --> 00:31:40,001
Speaker 2: a one out cell.

547
00:31:41,081 --> 00:31:41,321
Speaker 5: Yeah.

548
00:31:41,401 --> 00:31:44,841
Speaker 4: So when I went in, I was did you just

549
00:31:44,881 --> 00:31:46,161
Speaker 4: say two out in a one out?

550
00:31:46,761 --> 00:31:51,121
Speaker 2: Yep? And your head's next to the next to the toilet.

551
00:31:51,161 --> 00:31:55,321
Speaker 2: Literally your head or your feet would be touching the toilet. Wow,

552
00:31:55,721 --> 00:31:56,841
Speaker 2: that's exactly how it was.

553
00:31:57,241 --> 00:31:57,521
Speaker 5: Yeah.

554
00:31:57,681 --> 00:31:59,921
Speaker 4: We when I went in, we had to do two

555
00:31:59,921 --> 00:32:04,401
Speaker 4: weeks of COVID quarantine and majority of that time, or

556
00:32:04,401 --> 00:32:06,721
Speaker 4: at least, yeah, half of it, I spent in a

557
00:32:06,801 --> 00:32:10,201
Speaker 4: four out with four girls, and that.

558
00:32:10,241 --> 00:32:12,881
Speaker 2: Was you can't They won't let you out one boy

559
00:32:12,921 --> 00:32:14,841
Speaker 2: one either, because you've got to all go in at

560
00:32:14,841 --> 00:32:16,681
Speaker 2: the same and come out at the same exactly.

561
00:32:16,721 --> 00:32:18,361
Speaker 4: They keep you. You know, you all came in the

562
00:32:18,361 --> 00:32:19,761
Speaker 4: same date, so you stay together.

563
00:32:20,241 --> 00:32:22,201
Speaker 2: Oh, you're watching everybody else come out and go out

564
00:32:22,241 --> 00:32:24,321
Speaker 2: of the yard and start to migrate back into the

565
00:32:24,361 --> 00:32:25,321
Speaker 2: main and it's like.

566
00:32:25,561 --> 00:32:28,401
Speaker 4: And that was only for an hour a day then, so,

567
00:32:28,521 --> 00:32:31,601
Speaker 4: like you say, it's basically like being in Segro. And

568
00:32:31,641 --> 00:32:35,201
Speaker 4: then I did get COVID while I was in more

569
00:32:35,241 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 4: towards the end of my sentence, but by this stage

570
00:32:37,521 --> 00:32:40,641
Speaker 4: I was in a transitional center and the rules were

571
00:32:40,641 --> 00:32:43,481
Speaker 4: if you got COVID, you went back to Malawa or

572
00:32:43,521 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 4: silver Water as most people know it.

573
00:32:46,361 --> 00:32:50,361
Speaker 2: So then from transition, I think basically a Segro environment.

574
00:32:50,001 --> 00:32:52,401
Speaker 4: One hundred percent, And that was we weren't allowed out,

575
00:32:52,401 --> 00:32:55,921
Speaker 4: and I got stuck on silver Water for fifteen days.

576
00:32:55,761 --> 00:32:57,401
Speaker 2: With a penandole once a day.

577
00:32:57,681 --> 00:32:58,881
Speaker 5: Oh if that? If that?

578
00:33:00,641 --> 00:33:03,561
Speaker 4: And there was one of the screws was telling me

579
00:33:03,721 --> 00:33:07,681
Speaker 4: she had seen some of the men at Mubrc or

580
00:33:07,681 --> 00:33:11,041
Speaker 4: silver Water. They were in COVID isolation there and some

581
00:33:11,081 --> 00:33:13,081
Speaker 4: of them were getting stuck there for like a month,

582
00:33:13,161 --> 00:33:15,841
Speaker 4: and she just said, these are like, you know, grown men,

583
00:33:16,121 --> 00:33:18,641
Speaker 4: some of the toughest men around who I just by

584
00:33:18,641 --> 00:33:21,041
Speaker 4: the end of it, they're like in tears because they're

585
00:33:21,081 --> 00:33:24,041
Speaker 4: just it's driving you mental. You have no answers, you're

586
00:33:24,081 --> 00:33:26,721
Speaker 4: just stuck there. Waiting because you're in COVID quarantine.

587
00:33:26,761 --> 00:33:31,241
Speaker 2: They want no communication even even yelling between the cells

588
00:33:31,281 --> 00:33:33,281
Speaker 2: like you know, and you sort of got that lockdown.

589
00:33:33,561 --> 00:33:35,841
Speaker 2: Like if you come off your backyard it's in segra,

590
00:33:35,961 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 2: you've got you can't see anyone, but you've got your

591
00:33:37,961 --> 00:33:40,161
Speaker 2: little bars off the back of those tiny little yards.

592
00:33:40,201 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 2: You can at least throw a line, you can cook up,

593
00:33:42,321 --> 00:33:44,801
Speaker 2: you can pass drinks, food, whatever, you can some help

594
00:33:44,921 --> 00:33:47,561
Speaker 2: to someone, you know, yeah, interact with your mirror, you

595
00:33:47,601 --> 00:33:51,961
Speaker 2: know whatever. But that right there, that whole COVID thing

596
00:33:52,081 --> 00:33:52,481
Speaker 2: was just.

597
00:33:52,921 --> 00:33:54,960
Speaker 5: Yeah, so hard.

598
00:33:55,721 --> 00:34:01,121
Speaker 4: Yeah, so that we just need to be looking into

599
00:34:02,001 --> 00:34:05,521
Speaker 4: again the resources for the mothers and children. I was

600
00:34:05,561 --> 00:34:08,681
Speaker 4: at Emy Planes and they had one for a while there.

601
00:34:08,841 --> 00:34:12,201
Speaker 4: They ended up closing that down they last I know,

602
00:34:12,241 --> 00:34:15,561
Speaker 4: that whole you know, facility got closed down. So there's

603
00:34:15,561 --> 00:34:18,801
Speaker 4: not really a lot available for the women in New

604
00:34:18,841 --> 00:34:22,121
Speaker 4: South Wales at all anymore. But it was it was

605
00:34:22,121 --> 00:34:25,321
Speaker 4: a really good setup for the women with their children

606
00:34:25,361 --> 00:34:28,081
Speaker 4: while they were there. But it just seems to be

607
00:34:28,281 --> 00:34:31,841
Speaker 4: like they just cut cut, cut here, there and everywhere.

608
00:34:32,681 --> 00:34:37,441
Speaker 4: And you know, as much as people might think, well

609
00:34:38,161 --> 00:34:40,441
Speaker 4: if she was in prison for a reason, then you know,

610
00:34:40,841 --> 00:34:43,521
Speaker 4: that's too bad kind of thing. But as you know,

611
00:34:43,681 --> 00:34:46,801
Speaker 4: so many of of us know, or people who are

612
00:34:46,841 --> 00:34:50,921
Speaker 4: trying to advocates, well, what are we setting up? What

613
00:34:50,961 --> 00:34:52,721
Speaker 4: are we setting up? You know for these children who

614
00:34:52,801 --> 00:34:53,761
Speaker 4: are entering.

615
00:34:53,521 --> 00:34:58,641
Speaker 2: Those it becomes it becomes a return. Well, the revolving door.

616
00:34:58,721 --> 00:35:01,081
Speaker 2: That's that's the only word for it. It's a door

617
00:35:01,161 --> 00:35:04,321
Speaker 2: that rops and constantly in out, in out, and it

618
00:35:04,361 --> 00:35:05,801
Speaker 2: becomes general rational.

619
00:35:07,001 --> 00:35:07,921
Speaker 4: And that's what I learned.

620
00:35:08,761 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 2: You do you see, you know, like I I even

621
00:35:12,721 --> 00:35:15,841
Speaker 2: during living life as a as a biker, you know

622
00:35:15,841 --> 00:35:17,721
Speaker 2: what I mean, a one percenter for many many years,

623
00:35:17,761 --> 00:35:20,961
Speaker 2: only fifteen years, I never brought it technically into my home,

624
00:35:21,121 --> 00:35:23,041
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. Club life was club life

625
00:35:24,161 --> 00:35:27,401
Speaker 2: because I never wanted to see my children go down

626
00:35:27,441 --> 00:35:30,001
Speaker 2: those paths. They were my choices through the upbringing that

627
00:35:30,041 --> 00:35:31,881
Speaker 2: I had. It's just it's the path that I laid on.

628
00:35:31,961 --> 00:35:35,521
Speaker 2: You know, I didn't. I did know better in the end, yes,

629
00:35:35,561 --> 00:35:38,121
Speaker 2: but I didn't. I didn't have a lot of choices

630
00:35:38,121 --> 00:35:40,361
Speaker 2: when I was youngest. Anyway, that become what I classed

631
00:35:40,401 --> 00:35:43,441
Speaker 2: as a family because I had no family. But I

632
00:35:43,521 --> 00:35:46,361
Speaker 2: never wanted that for my children. And I'm so blessed

633
00:35:46,361 --> 00:35:49,601
Speaker 2: and grateful for my four children, whom three are pretty

634
00:35:49,601 --> 00:35:52,681
Speaker 2: well on their way to well twenty six and nearly

635
00:35:52,721 --> 00:35:55,401
Speaker 2: eighteen and fort and so they're well and truly up there.

636
00:35:55,441 --> 00:35:58,241
Speaker 2: And my youngest as young, but you think he's old.

637
00:35:58,481 --> 00:36:00,401
Speaker 2: But the bottom line then is they're all doing very well.

638
00:36:00,441 --> 00:36:02,601
Speaker 2: So I've always said that my wrongs are their rights,

639
00:36:02,721 --> 00:36:05,801
Speaker 2: and I'm very proud of that because they're not naive,

640
00:36:05,881 --> 00:36:08,201
Speaker 2: they're not blinded, and they're not silly. They're know right

641
00:36:08,241 --> 00:36:11,481
Speaker 2: from wrong, and they understand and they see also to

642
00:36:12,681 --> 00:36:14,561
Speaker 2: the way the world is for what it is. You know,

643
00:36:14,561 --> 00:36:16,721
Speaker 2: if somebody's down on their luck or they're in trouble,

644
00:36:16,841 --> 00:36:21,681
Speaker 2: they know, they're very aware of their surroundings. And they've watched,

645
00:36:22,241 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 2: you know, myself live with mental health issues too. Then

646
00:36:25,881 --> 00:36:28,841
Speaker 2: obviously you know, doing some wonderful things and helping others

647
00:36:28,881 --> 00:36:33,321
Speaker 2: grow from their you know, their worst times. And I've

648
00:36:33,361 --> 00:36:36,001
Speaker 2: always been very upfront and I think that you know,

649
00:36:36,041 --> 00:36:39,281
Speaker 2: we can help our children and protect our children, give

650
00:36:39,321 --> 00:36:42,761
Speaker 2: them better tools and ways through our own experiences. I've

651
00:36:42,801 --> 00:36:47,441
Speaker 2: never understood a second and third generational I guess criminal

652
00:36:47,481 --> 00:36:51,641
Speaker 2: family or member of a club, or a father and

653
00:36:51,721 --> 00:36:54,481
Speaker 2: son KOI, or mother and daughter KOI. I've just like

654
00:36:55,801 --> 00:36:58,201
Speaker 2: I couldn't think of anything work, to be honest with you,

655
00:36:58,281 --> 00:37:00,721
Speaker 2: And I even know people out there that you know,

656
00:37:00,881 --> 00:37:03,561
Speaker 2: literally there's one I won't go into too much, but anyway,

657
00:37:04,521 --> 00:37:06,761
Speaker 2: a bloke I'd known a long long time that was

658
00:37:06,761 --> 00:37:09,121
Speaker 2: a great bloke, never in trouble, got into a certain

659
00:37:09,161 --> 00:37:11,521
Speaker 2: way of life, made a bad choice, ended up with

660
00:37:11,641 --> 00:37:13,761
Speaker 2: a really bad habit, which a lot of them do.

661
00:37:14,881 --> 00:37:17,041
Speaker 2: His sons went from great young men to one now

662
00:37:17,121 --> 00:37:19,241
Speaker 2: doing seven years and he's only in his early twenties

663
00:37:19,281 --> 00:37:21,801
Speaker 2: while his dad's doing another another breach of parole and

664
00:37:21,881 --> 00:37:23,881
Speaker 2: doing three or four on top of what he's already done.

665
00:37:23,961 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 2: Like it's just heartbreaking, and I.

666
00:37:25,441 --> 00:37:27,361
Speaker 5: Just had to find Yeah, yeah, but.

667
00:37:27,561 --> 00:37:30,321
Speaker 2: How could you ask that of your kids? You know,

668
00:37:30,401 --> 00:37:32,681
Speaker 2: like they deserve a life. Well, what we do and

669
00:37:32,721 --> 00:37:35,201
Speaker 2: how we choose that's on us, but not.

670
00:37:35,121 --> 00:37:38,921
Speaker 4: Actually sure, Yeah, for sure, And I think that's like,

671
00:37:39,961 --> 00:37:43,201
Speaker 4: I think that's so good that you know they can

672
00:37:43,241 --> 00:37:45,881
Speaker 4: see both sides to it, and like you say, they

673
00:37:45,881 --> 00:37:49,481
Speaker 4: can recognize if someone is having a hard time or

674
00:37:50,201 --> 00:37:54,241
Speaker 4: you know, it's going through something and knowing that they're

675
00:37:54,281 --> 00:38:00,041
Speaker 4: still like yourself are probably a really good person, you know,

676
00:38:00,121 --> 00:38:04,121
Speaker 4: and just and knowing that you know, people can have

677
00:38:04,201 --> 00:38:08,201
Speaker 4: difficult times, tough situations, and the reality is we're all

678
00:38:09,201 --> 00:38:12,081
Speaker 4: going to go through those, and everyone's privy to a

679
00:38:12,121 --> 00:38:16,361
Speaker 4: tough time, and it's you know, it's guaranteed, but that

680
00:38:17,001 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 4: you know, life isn't just how you want it, or

681
00:38:21,321 --> 00:38:24,681
Speaker 4: you know some of the privilege that you know a

682
00:38:24,721 --> 00:38:26,801
Speaker 4: lot of us do have. And and to be honest,

683
00:38:26,801 --> 00:38:29,801
Speaker 4: that I had before I experienced any of this, for sure,

684
00:38:29,841 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 4: I was like super ignorant to it. And I think

685
00:38:33,481 --> 00:38:37,081
Speaker 4: that's why I'm really, i guess passionate about talking about

686
00:38:37,121 --> 00:38:41,281
Speaker 4: it now, is because I was so ignorant to the

687
00:38:41,361 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 4: lives that some people have lived, the places that they've

688
00:38:45,001 --> 00:38:47,681
Speaker 4: come from, the environments that they've been brought up in,

689
00:38:48,521 --> 00:38:52,361
Speaker 4: and how different it is to for example, a family

690
00:38:52,481 --> 00:38:57,001
Speaker 4: like mine, where I was, you know, only ever encouraged

691
00:38:57,041 --> 00:39:00,041
Speaker 4: and loved and you know, given all the good things.

692
00:39:01,281 --> 00:39:04,681
Speaker 4: But you know that's not the case for everybody. And

693
00:39:04,721 --> 00:39:10,121
Speaker 4: I think, you know, to understand that those sorts of

694
00:39:10,161 --> 00:39:12,201
Speaker 4: people need to be given a chance, need to be

695
00:39:12,281 --> 00:39:15,201
Speaker 4: told they're worth something, and then for people like me

696
00:39:16,041 --> 00:39:20,081
Speaker 4: to also learn, you know, what it is to live

697
00:39:20,121 --> 00:39:22,641
Speaker 4: in life that is different to yours and give that

698
00:39:22,681 --> 00:39:23,801
Speaker 4: people that opportunity.

699
00:39:24,721 --> 00:39:27,081
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. I want to ask a little

700
00:39:27,121 --> 00:39:30,361
Speaker 2: bit more, just touching back on your experience prior to jail,

701
00:39:30,441 --> 00:39:32,761
Speaker 2: because I think it's important you know the lead up

702
00:39:32,801 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 2: and also to your experience, because you know, looking at you,

703
00:39:38,081 --> 00:39:41,681
Speaker 2: I would assume that you probably had a little bit

704
00:39:41,721 --> 00:39:46,561
Speaker 2: of a rough time at the start, and hey, I

705
00:39:46,601 --> 00:39:48,561
Speaker 2: mean this is the fact. Is what people need to

706
00:39:48,601 --> 00:39:52,201
Speaker 2: know because it is an ugly fucking place and it

707
00:39:52,201 --> 00:39:54,881
Speaker 2: doesn't matter who you are, how much money you've got,

708
00:39:54,921 --> 00:39:57,361
Speaker 2: how good looking you are, how fat, how skinny you small,

709
00:39:57,441 --> 00:40:00,241
Speaker 2: how big your boobs, your bum, whatever the health or

710
00:40:00,281 --> 00:40:04,361
Speaker 2: don't got, you are going to be vulnerable. And this

711
00:40:04,441 --> 00:40:08,281
Speaker 2: is the reality of you know, people falling into this space,

712
00:40:08,841 --> 00:40:12,601
Speaker 2: making mistakes or wrong choices and then ending up in cast.

713
00:40:12,681 --> 00:40:16,881
Speaker 2: Right your process, did you plead not guilty or did

714
00:40:16,921 --> 00:40:17,761
Speaker 2: you plead guilty?

715
00:40:18,641 --> 00:40:20,881
Speaker 4: So I pled guilty in my case.

716
00:40:20,921 --> 00:40:23,241
Speaker 2: And it still took years for it to go through.

717
00:40:23,561 --> 00:40:27,801
Speaker 4: It still took years. A lot of that did have

718
00:40:27,881 --> 00:40:31,601
Speaker 4: to do with COVID. By the time that I that

719
00:40:31,721 --> 00:40:34,121
Speaker 4: I did do that, you know, my sentencing date was

720
00:40:34,401 --> 00:40:38,961
Speaker 4: changed probably at least three times. And you know, as

721
00:40:38,961 --> 00:40:41,521
Speaker 4: you would know, one change can be four months down

722
00:40:41,561 --> 00:40:44,841
Speaker 4: the track kind of thing. So so yeah, I was.

723
00:40:44,881 --> 00:40:46,921
Speaker 4: I was on bail for three and a half years,

724
00:40:46,921 --> 00:40:50,041
Speaker 4: and at some point I can't remember exactly it was,

725
00:40:50,441 --> 00:40:53,201
Speaker 4: you know, back and forth with my solicitor, embarrassaor and

726
00:40:54,161 --> 00:40:58,001
Speaker 4: looking at the evidence and and you know, working it

727
00:40:58,041 --> 00:41:02,961
Speaker 4: all out and and yeah, I made the decision to

728
00:41:03,681 --> 00:41:11,121
Speaker 4: plead guilty. And for me, like bail was worse now

729
00:41:11,161 --> 00:41:14,201
Speaker 4: that now I know, bail was worse than jail because

730
00:41:14,521 --> 00:41:19,000
Speaker 4: the feeling of the unknown. And you know, as I've said,

731
00:41:19,001 --> 00:41:24,721
Speaker 4: I've never experienced jail before. I don't really know anyone

732
00:41:24,721 --> 00:41:25,441
Speaker 4: that had been in.

733
00:41:26,001 --> 00:41:28,161
Speaker 2: You know, it don't give you any reduction. They'll give

734
00:41:28,161 --> 00:41:30,721
Speaker 2: you any reduction because of your time on bail.

735
00:41:30,921 --> 00:41:32,241
Speaker 5: Not because of my time on bail.

736
00:41:32,321 --> 00:41:34,321
Speaker 2: No, isn't It isn't that. And this is something that

737
00:41:34,361 --> 00:41:36,881
Speaker 2: people don't understand unless you're in custody and you're on

738
00:41:37,041 --> 00:41:41,721
Speaker 2: remand you know, sometimes and I'm grateful for when I

739
00:41:41,801 --> 00:41:44,601
Speaker 2: did get arrested back in two thousand and nine, because

740
00:41:44,881 --> 00:41:46,761
Speaker 2: I was looking at double figures and ended up with

741
00:41:46,761 --> 00:41:50,681
Speaker 2: the six, which was which was a great number for

742
00:41:50,761 --> 00:41:53,761
Speaker 2: that at the time, So you know, I'm definitely not

743
00:41:53,881 --> 00:41:57,681
Speaker 2: whinging about it. But what I did realize was the

744
00:41:57,721 --> 00:42:00,081
Speaker 2: time that I was there and I was bail refused

745
00:42:00,121 --> 00:42:03,121
Speaker 2: because of the seriousness of the crime and you know

746
00:42:03,161 --> 00:42:06,681
Speaker 2: it was commercial importation blah blah blah blah, there was

747
00:42:06,721 --> 00:42:09,641
Speaker 2: no opportunity for bar presumption against bail. But at the

748
00:42:09,681 --> 00:42:11,721
Speaker 2: same time, I knew I was going to because I

749
00:42:11,761 --> 00:42:14,401
Speaker 2: played guilty, going to be serving time and each day

750
00:42:14,521 --> 00:42:16,881
Speaker 2: was another day off my sentence from from there on

751
00:42:17,001 --> 00:42:20,721
Speaker 2: in for four and a half years. Now, like yourself

752
00:42:20,761 --> 00:42:27,081
Speaker 2: three and a half years. It's you can't describe that feeling.

753
00:42:27,121 --> 00:42:30,721
Speaker 2: Now if you found guilty, I mean, I'm in a

754
00:42:30,721 --> 00:42:34,041
Speaker 2: different sort of completely different sort of thing. You know,

755
00:42:34,201 --> 00:42:38,521
Speaker 2: I'm fighting my matters. But if I don't win that,

756
00:42:39,521 --> 00:42:43,801
Speaker 2: and you know, the sentencing comes down, it'll be harsh

757
00:42:45,121 --> 00:42:48,881
Speaker 2: and just you know, harsh four years. I mean, look, okay,

758
00:42:48,921 --> 00:42:51,161
Speaker 2: you did well for your crime. That's not bullshit. I

759
00:42:51,161 --> 00:42:55,361
Speaker 2: mean I think the time that you got pretty good time.

760
00:42:55,481 --> 00:42:57,641
Speaker 2: Really when you think of the amount of figure, I'm sorry,

761
00:42:57,721 --> 00:43:00,961
Speaker 2: not being disrespect put it in perspective, like you know,

762
00:43:01,121 --> 00:43:05,201
Speaker 2: like you copped it. You've you've Yeah, I mean, but

763
00:43:05,921 --> 00:43:08,241
Speaker 2: the years that you lose in between and then you've

764
00:43:08,241 --> 00:43:10,121
Speaker 2: got to go through and your families go through that

765
00:43:10,161 --> 00:43:13,281
Speaker 2: whole process then of you not being there, you being

766
00:43:13,321 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: in custody, and basically them providing for you, making sure

767
00:43:20,521 --> 00:43:23,921
Speaker 2: you've got adequate money for your buyouts, for phone calls,

768
00:43:24,001 --> 00:43:26,561
Speaker 2: for your mail, for all the things that are required

769
00:43:26,601 --> 00:43:31,161
Speaker 2: whilst someone's in custody. It's it's a whole new level.

770
00:43:32,401 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, I didn't even realize, like prior to being in

771
00:43:36,441 --> 00:43:39,121
Speaker 4: prison how much it would cost my family for me

772
00:43:39,201 --> 00:43:40,361
Speaker 4: being there as well.

773
00:43:40,441 --> 00:43:42,241
Speaker 2: Particularly on top of your legals.

774
00:43:42,401 --> 00:43:46,881
Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely, particularly my partner you know, who would put

775
00:43:46,881 --> 00:43:49,161
Speaker 4: money in my account every week and things like that.

776
00:43:49,361 --> 00:43:52,761
Speaker 4: It's there is no way that you can just get

777
00:43:52,801 --> 00:43:56,121
Speaker 4: through on your you know, jail wage. If you're working,

778
00:43:56,881 --> 00:43:58,841
Speaker 4: like you say, I think you get like one or

779
00:43:58,841 --> 00:44:02,201
Speaker 4: two free letters a week. Other than that, your mail's

780
00:44:02,281 --> 00:44:04,161
Speaker 4: not free.

781
00:44:04,361 --> 00:44:04,761
Speaker 5: Good luck.

782
00:44:04,761 --> 00:44:08,521
Speaker 4: If all you're prepared to eat is the provided.

783
00:44:08,081 --> 00:44:10,641
Speaker 5: Food little.

784
00:44:14,521 --> 00:44:20,041
Speaker 4: The CSIE train, Yeah, it all smells the same, you

785
00:44:20,081 --> 00:44:20,401
Speaker 4: know what.

786
00:44:20,761 --> 00:44:24,201
Speaker 2: I'm forty nine and my first jail sentence was at

787
00:44:24,201 --> 00:44:26,441
Speaker 2: Long Bay when I was eighteen, and back then they

788
00:44:26,521 --> 00:44:29,601
Speaker 2: used to have what they called the barrow, so they'd

789
00:44:29,641 --> 00:44:32,761
Speaker 2: push in this big bay Marie and the sweepers had

790
00:44:32,801 --> 00:44:34,881
Speaker 2: come up, and you'd line up like you're see in

791
00:44:34,921 --> 00:44:37,641
Speaker 2: the movies, and you'd basically be scooped up all handed

792
00:44:38,761 --> 00:44:43,841
Speaker 2: your food, which I would much rather eat that way,

793
00:44:43,961 --> 00:44:46,481
Speaker 2: And especially if you if you're okay, I'm pretty sweet,

794
00:44:46,481 --> 00:44:49,121
Speaker 2: you generally got looked after. And but I know why

795
00:44:49,161 --> 00:44:51,041
Speaker 2: they had to change it up because of the old

796
00:44:51,121 --> 00:44:53,441
Speaker 2: kitchen rule its and the rest of it, because there

797
00:44:53,561 --> 00:44:55,641
Speaker 2: was some fucking good cook ups going on, I can

798
00:44:55,681 --> 00:44:57,441
Speaker 2: tell you, and they went off the barrow, but there

799
00:44:57,481 --> 00:45:00,121
Speaker 2: was plenty of steak and chicken and eggs. And now

800
00:45:00,241 --> 00:45:04,361
Speaker 2: that's sort of sitting in the freeze. I get it.

801
00:45:04,481 --> 00:45:06,801
Speaker 2: Cus I costings, you know, went out through the window.

802
00:45:07,241 --> 00:45:11,561
Speaker 2: But it really is disgusting, and your buyops aren't much better,

803
00:45:11,601 --> 00:45:14,761
Speaker 2: because reality is you live on two minute noodles and tuna.

804
00:45:14,801 --> 00:45:17,561
Speaker 2: And if you can cook and create things around that,

805
00:45:17,641 --> 00:45:19,401
Speaker 2: with different things, you might get a little bit of

806
00:45:19,401 --> 00:45:20,681
Speaker 2: an oreo cheesecake or.

807
00:45:20,801 --> 00:45:24,481
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, something knows how to make a cheesecake.

808
00:45:24,641 --> 00:45:26,681
Speaker 2: Well, if you can get a tin of condensed milk.

809
00:45:26,681 --> 00:45:28,761
Speaker 2: I don't think people realize, you know, what's a condensed

810
00:45:28,801 --> 00:45:29,641
Speaker 2: milk worth.

811
00:45:29,521 --> 00:45:32,761
Speaker 5: You know, and it's not cheap either, like buyop is

812
00:45:32,801 --> 00:45:33,321
Speaker 5: not cheap.

813
00:45:33,681 --> 00:45:36,881
Speaker 2: Well it's not. And especially when they restricted to fifty dollars. Yeah,

814
00:45:36,921 --> 00:45:38,601
Speaker 2: and I think that isn't that The new South Wales

815
00:45:38,641 --> 00:45:40,201
Speaker 2: system now fifty dollars a week.

816
00:45:40,481 --> 00:45:42,761
Speaker 4: It was fifty during COVID they put it up to

817
00:45:42,801 --> 00:45:46,561
Speaker 4: one hundred as far as I know, because no one

818
00:45:46,641 --> 00:45:50,801
Speaker 4: was getting yeah, so everyone was eating.

819
00:45:50,801 --> 00:45:55,121
Speaker 2: Again they can make more money off everyone like that.

820
00:45:55,601 --> 00:46:00,121
Speaker 4: Gosh, I think it's still stated at one hundred, but.

821
00:46:00,161 --> 00:46:01,721
Speaker 5: Yeah, hundred.

822
00:46:02,401 --> 00:46:05,361
Speaker 2: Like your toiletries, if you consider your high in a

823
00:46:05,401 --> 00:46:07,721
Speaker 2: fifteen twenty bucks a week minimum, you know what I mean?

824
00:46:07,801 --> 00:46:11,921
Speaker 2: Like you've got, you know, your your little trinkets that

825
00:46:11,961 --> 00:46:13,761
Speaker 2: you might need. You know, you might need a pad.

826
00:46:13,841 --> 00:46:16,521
Speaker 2: You might not pad as in female pad. Well for

827
00:46:16,601 --> 00:46:19,321
Speaker 2: you women, I suppose yes you would have need pads,

828
00:46:19,361 --> 00:46:24,161
Speaker 2: but for the man, you know, writing pads just little

829
00:46:24,201 --> 00:46:27,241
Speaker 2: condiments and stuff that make you feel a little bit better.

830
00:46:28,721 --> 00:46:31,081
Speaker 2: One hundred dollars doesn't go anywhere. And you know, like

831
00:46:31,121 --> 00:46:33,081
Speaker 2: when you're getting charged, you know what is it a

832
00:46:33,161 --> 00:46:35,681
Speaker 2: six minute phone call and it's three dollars fifty a

833
00:46:35,761 --> 00:46:38,641
Speaker 2: minute or something or something crazy two dollars fifty a minute.

834
00:46:38,801 --> 00:46:41,241
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's that. I mean that in itself is not

835
00:46:41,321 --> 00:46:43,321
Speaker 4: cheap either. And yeah, like you say, it's six minutes,

836
00:46:44,921 --> 00:46:47,561
Speaker 4: you kind of lose track of how many calls you

837
00:46:47,561 --> 00:46:49,561
Speaker 4: go to make, and then the worst thing that happens

838
00:46:49,601 --> 00:46:51,841
Speaker 4: is it's Friday afternoon and you realize you've got no

839
00:46:51,961 --> 00:46:53,881
Speaker 4: credit on your phone and you're like, that's it.

840
00:46:54,001 --> 00:46:55,561
Speaker 5: I have no phone calls for the whole.

841
00:46:55,361 --> 00:46:58,361
Speaker 4: Weekend because no one is going to put it through now.

842
00:46:58,441 --> 00:47:02,921
Speaker 4: So you're waiting till Monday maybe, if not Tuesday, for

843
00:47:03,001 --> 00:47:06,041
Speaker 4: the admin staff to put your money back on your you.

844
00:47:06,001 --> 00:47:08,201
Speaker 2: Know what they used to have like twenty plates, oh

845
00:47:08,241 --> 00:47:12,241
Speaker 2: maybe even longer, so twenty yeah, twenty five years ago.

846
00:47:12,401 --> 00:47:14,681
Speaker 2: Remember when the phone cards first come out, the public

847
00:47:14,761 --> 00:47:16,561
Speaker 2: telephone cards, you used to go and punch in a

848
00:47:16,641 --> 00:47:21,001
Speaker 2: code and then they'd tell you you're amount. So mane

849
00:47:21,041 --> 00:47:23,761
Speaker 2: guys in jail would walk around with fifty one hundred

850
00:47:23,761 --> 00:47:26,881
Speaker 2: dollars phone cards and that was commodity, that was cash like,

851
00:47:26,961 --> 00:47:29,481
Speaker 2: so everyone using it to get on with and to

852
00:47:29,561 --> 00:47:32,241
Speaker 2: buy their bibs and sneaky little bits and pieces here,

853
00:47:32,241 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 2: and then you always knew who was kicking goals because

854
00:47:35,001 --> 00:47:37,801
Speaker 2: they were literally stuck to the phone. They didn't how

855
00:47:37,841 --> 00:47:42,841
Speaker 2: long they were on it. They had plenty and you know,

856
00:47:42,961 --> 00:47:46,321
Speaker 2: like these there was ways around it all with these

857
00:47:46,601 --> 00:47:49,081
Speaker 2: these phone cards. Because you didn't have to actually put

858
00:47:49,121 --> 00:47:50,921
Speaker 2: it in and have it on a specific number, you

859
00:47:50,961 --> 00:47:52,161
Speaker 2: could manipulate the system.

860
00:47:52,441 --> 00:47:58,081
Speaker 4: Okay, gotcha, Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah yeah.

861
00:47:58,121 --> 00:48:01,561
Speaker 2: So you know, times definitely have changed now and obviously,

862
00:48:01,601 --> 00:48:03,361
Speaker 2: you know, due to security and all that rest of

863
00:48:03,401 --> 00:48:06,041
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff. You know, like it is what

864
00:48:06,081 --> 00:48:09,921
Speaker 2: it is. It isn't easy for anyone in there, and.

865
00:48:09,601 --> 00:48:15,041
Speaker 4: Yeah for sure, and yeah, like definitely you know, getting

866
00:48:15,041 --> 00:48:17,561
Speaker 4: in there and navigating and I would have stood out

867
00:48:17,601 --> 00:48:20,601
Speaker 4: like a sore thumb because I think people can you know,

868
00:48:21,601 --> 00:48:24,681
Speaker 4: majority of you know, the girls or anyone who's been

869
00:48:24,721 --> 00:48:26,721
Speaker 4: in a few times. They can tell that you're a

870
00:48:26,761 --> 00:48:31,401
Speaker 4: first timer, that you've never been there, And it's a

871
00:48:31,441 --> 00:48:36,401
Speaker 4: hard line between I guess, holding your own and not

872
00:48:36,561 --> 00:48:38,441
Speaker 4: being taken advantage of as well.

873
00:48:38,841 --> 00:48:41,921
Speaker 2: Do you think devans like from growing up in such

874
00:48:41,961 --> 00:48:45,481
Speaker 2: a dangerous country And I feel that this might have

875
00:48:45,561 --> 00:48:49,361
Speaker 2: been something that helped you that would have kicked in.

876
00:48:49,441 --> 00:48:51,161
Speaker 2: And I know you were young when you left but

877
00:48:51,201 --> 00:48:54,641
Speaker 2: still you would have had that embedded into you of

878
00:48:55,081 --> 00:48:59,441
Speaker 2: survival and not taking shit and I guess, you know,

879
00:48:59,521 --> 00:49:01,961
Speaker 2: being humble but holding your.

880
00:49:01,801 --> 00:49:06,121
Speaker 4: Own Yeah, I think so, you know, like like I've

881
00:49:06,121 --> 00:49:08,201
Speaker 4: never been in a fight with a girl before, I've

882
00:49:08,241 --> 00:49:12,241
Speaker 4: never had a punch on with anyone, But you have

883
00:49:12,321 --> 00:49:16,401
Speaker 4: to be at a spot where you don't take shit

884
00:49:16,761 --> 00:49:21,521
Speaker 4: because you know otherwise you're going to could just yeah,

885
00:49:21,561 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 4: you'll get walking all over if you know, people will

886
00:49:25,521 --> 00:49:28,641
Speaker 4: want your buy up or they'll constantly ask you for things,

887
00:49:29,481 --> 00:49:31,721
Speaker 4: whatever it is. And I would just try and make

888
00:49:31,761 --> 00:49:34,881
Speaker 4: sure that even if I was in a situation where

889
00:49:35,841 --> 00:49:38,561
Speaker 4: there were things being talked spoken about, say like in

890
00:49:38,601 --> 00:49:40,121
Speaker 4: a group, if I was at work or we were

891
00:49:40,121 --> 00:49:42,721
Speaker 4: in a lunch room something like that and there was

892
00:49:43,361 --> 00:49:47,041
Speaker 4: you know, drama happening, it's just things like I'd walk

893
00:49:47,081 --> 00:49:51,321
Speaker 4: away because I'm like, if you know, something goes down

894
00:49:51,361 --> 00:49:53,601
Speaker 4: with this. And then they're all like, Okay, hang on,

895
00:49:53,721 --> 00:49:56,001
Speaker 4: let's go back. Who was in the room. Who can

896
00:49:56,041 --> 00:49:57,881
Speaker 4: we not trust? Who was perhaps over here?

897
00:49:58,241 --> 00:50:02,401
Speaker 2: Politics? Everyone's a fucking dog, And you give up everyone

898
00:50:02,441 --> 00:50:06,281
Speaker 2: because you were there and even though you had nothing, Yeah, yeah,

899
00:50:06,321 --> 00:50:08,761
Speaker 2: for sure, cameras that it was done in front of

900
00:50:09,561 --> 00:50:11,761
Speaker 2: everything that went down prior to the amount of yelling

901
00:50:11,801 --> 00:50:13,841
Speaker 2: and screaming and all the words that the screws heard.

902
00:50:14,401 --> 00:50:15,641
Speaker 5: Yeah, for sure.

903
00:50:15,841 --> 00:50:21,881
Speaker 4: So it's just like, I guess, be respectful, but you know,

904
00:50:22,081 --> 00:50:27,401
Speaker 4: also know that you know you're not there to be

905
00:50:27,481 --> 00:50:32,521
Speaker 4: taken advantage of. There was like scenarios where you know,

906
00:50:32,561 --> 00:50:35,441
Speaker 4: people would like google UKSE or your name or whatever

907
00:50:35,561 --> 00:50:38,481
Speaker 4: with friends or whatever on the phone. So yes, we

908
00:50:38,521 --> 00:50:41,641
Speaker 4: don't have access to computers and things like that, but

909
00:50:41,681 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 4: that doesn't mean that someone won't get on the phone

910
00:50:43,521 --> 00:50:46,201
Speaker 4: and be like, oh, hey, what's this person in for.

911
00:50:46,401 --> 00:50:47,921
Speaker 4: What's you know the situation.

912
00:50:48,481 --> 00:50:51,001
Speaker 2: Did you have any any issues because of the amount

913
00:50:51,001 --> 00:50:54,201
Speaker 2: of money that was publicly listed that was you know,

914
00:50:54,321 --> 00:50:57,801
Speaker 2: defrauded And I mean obviously that would put a real

915
00:50:57,841 --> 00:50:59,961
Speaker 2: big red light over your head that you're someone that

916
00:51:00,041 --> 00:51:01,161
Speaker 2: might have something.

917
00:51:00,881 --> 00:51:04,281
Speaker 4: That you know, yeah, I was. I'd had my solicit

918
00:51:04,441 --> 00:51:06,961
Speaker 4: had this conversation with me prior to going in, and

919
00:51:07,041 --> 00:51:09,521
Speaker 4: he just said, you know, this could be a thing

920
00:51:09,681 --> 00:51:12,441
Speaker 4: where people find out about the amount of money so

921
00:51:12,481 --> 00:51:15,481
Speaker 4: they think that you have money and whatnot. So I

922
00:51:16,081 --> 00:51:18,481
Speaker 4: made an effort not to. I made it a thing

923
00:51:18,561 --> 00:51:21,801
Speaker 4: for myself. I guess not to talk about it. I

924
00:51:21,841 --> 00:51:22,601
Speaker 4: certainly wouldn't.

925
00:51:22,881 --> 00:51:23,081
Speaker 2: You know.

926
00:51:23,201 --> 00:51:25,121
Speaker 4: Some people like to go in and brag about what

927
00:51:25,161 --> 00:51:28,241
Speaker 4: they've done. Of course that's that was definitely not the

928
00:51:28,241 --> 00:51:31,481
Speaker 4: case for me. I wasn't proud of what I'd done anyway,

929
00:51:31,481 --> 00:51:33,681
Speaker 4: but I definitely wasn't going to go around telling everybody

930
00:51:33,761 --> 00:51:34,161
Speaker 4: as well.

931
00:51:34,441 --> 00:51:37,321
Speaker 1: That concludes part one of Brent's chat with Devin Hammond.

932
00:51:37,921 --> 00:51:40,241
Speaker 2: In part two, we hear more about what happens when

933
00:51:40,241 --> 00:51:43,801
Speaker 2: people learn her crimes inside prison the rest of her

934
00:51:43,841 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 2: life to rehabilitation.

935
00:51:45,161 --> 00:51:49,121
Speaker 1: Photo Record, don't try and make you uncomfortable, photo Record.

936
00:51:49,201 --> 00:51:52,361
Speaker 1: You ain't trying world and stuff for your photo record

937
00:51:52,601 --> 00:51:56,001
Speaker 1: lab on me going all the way. Photo Record, ain't

938
00:51:56,041 --> 00:51:58,401
Speaker 1: trying to Lenk No trying to wish stuff for.

939
00:51:58,601 --> 00:52:08,121
Speaker 3: Reged, for fort Reged, the right, for the recon, for

940
00:52:08,321 --> 00:52:08,761
Speaker 3: the recon