1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:15,521 Speaker 1: Apoche Production. Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shanner. 2 00:00:15,521 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 2: I'm your host, Adam shann If you like the show, 3 00:00:17,881 --> 00:00:20,561 Speaker 2: please heit the like and subscribe, buttons and share it. 4 00:00:20,681 --> 00:00:25,361 Speaker 2: Barren White to support more independent crime journalism. After the 5 00:00:25,401 --> 00:00:28,361 Speaker 2: alleged murder of two police officers of Victoria's High Country 6 00:00:28,361 --> 00:00:31,441 Speaker 2: in August, the concept of the sovereign citizen has been 7 00:00:31,481 --> 00:00:32,081 Speaker 2: in the news. 8 00:00:32,841 --> 00:00:36,401 Speaker 3: Desi Freeman is a fugitive hiding in the hills surrounding 9 00:00:36,441 --> 00:00:40,241 Speaker 3: poor Punker, a man wanted by the full force over 10 00:00:40,281 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 3: the cold blooded murders of their colleagues. 11 00:00:43,721 --> 00:00:47,641 Speaker 4: Alleged killer Desi Freeman has based his worldview on the 12 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 4: so called alternative legal theory. 13 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:53,761 Speaker 3: A sovereign citizen is someone who wrongly believes they are 14 00:00:53,761 --> 00:00:57,521 Speaker 3: not subject to Australian federal, state, or local law because 15 00:00:57,561 --> 00:01:01,001 Speaker 3: they think the laws are incorrect and therefore invalid. 16 00:01:01,961 --> 00:01:04,721 Speaker 5: It's been discussed as if it has some basis in 17 00:01:04,721 --> 00:01:09,321 Speaker 5: the law, it most certainly does not. At its core 18 00:01:09,521 --> 00:01:12,601 Speaker 5: is a selfish refusal to acknowledge the legitimacy of governments, 19 00:01:12,721 --> 00:01:18,041 Speaker 5: the courts, police and the entire legal system. Even now 20 00:01:18,041 --> 00:01:23,401 Speaker 5: to civil concepts like vehicle registration and drivers licensing. These 21 00:01:23,521 --> 00:01:26,641 Speaker 5: individuals don't work, and if they do, they don't pay taxes. 22 00:01:27,241 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 5: They use and abuse the legal system to harass police 23 00:01:30,761 --> 00:01:36,121 Speaker 5: officers and to delay hearings. An ABC investigation has revealed 24 00:01:36,121 --> 00:01:39,041 Speaker 5: how a Sovereign citizen group she co founded has been 25 00:01:39,161 --> 00:01:43,161 Speaker 5: using FA Court to harass government and court officials across 26 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 5: the country. They'll always take matters to trial and appeal 27 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:52,081 Speaker 5: all outcomes. They abuse and intimidate government officials, will call 28 00:01:52,161 --> 00:01:56,601 Speaker 5: the police and expect action if they're victims of crime themselves. 29 00:01:57,321 --> 00:02:01,081 Speaker 5: We've seen individual police targeted and demonized. 30 00:02:00,601 --> 00:02:03,161 Speaker 1: As they go about their lawful duties. 31 00:02:03,841 --> 00:02:06,241 Speaker 5: The legal system doesn't know what to do with these 32 00:02:06,281 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 5: recalcitrant and vexatious litigants. 33 00:02:10,041 --> 00:02:13,321 Speaker 4: My guest today, former Victoria detective Peter cost knows what 34 00:02:13,361 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 4: it's like to tangle with them. 35 00:02:15,601 --> 00:02:18,681 Speaker 6: For six years he was harassed and pursued by a 36 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 6: group of these individuals. 37 00:02:20,321 --> 00:02:22,520 Speaker 1: Has agreed to share his experiences. 38 00:02:22,561 --> 00:02:25,401 Speaker 7: Can I be no way, adam? 39 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,641 Speaker 1: Good mate? How did this all begin for you? So? 40 00:02:29,841 --> 00:02:34,081 Speaker 7: It all started when knuckle had One attended Matthew Guy's office. 41 00:02:34,121 --> 00:02:37,441 Speaker 7: Matthew Guy, then being the leader of the opposition of 42 00:02:37,481 --> 00:02:42,841 Speaker 7: the Liberal Party in Victoria Intendity's office in Doncaster and 43 00:02:42,881 --> 00:02:46,521 Speaker 7: he abused the people there and smashed a glass window 44 00:02:46,641 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 7: in Matthew Guy's office because he wasn't getting answers from 45 00:02:51,001 --> 00:02:54,841 Speaker 7: Matthew that he wanted. Regardless of what that was about, 46 00:02:55,361 --> 00:02:59,081 Speaker 7: he did cause criminal damage. He was subsequently charged by 47 00:02:59,081 --> 00:03:02,481 Speaker 7: someone in my office and at one stage he failed 48 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,201 Speaker 7: to turn up and appear in court, so a bench 49 00:03:06,281 --> 00:03:10,280 Speaker 7: warrant was issued by the magistrates at Ringwood that ended 50 00:03:10,321 --> 00:03:13,960 Speaker 7: up in our office and myself and two other detectives 51 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,641 Speaker 7: went down to Danyong to arrest him and take him 52 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:19,841 Speaker 7: back before the courts for failing to appear at court. 53 00:03:20,201 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: Stuff you do all the time as a police officer. 54 00:03:22,601 --> 00:03:25,601 Speaker 7: Yeah, So we get warrants for fail to appear all 55 00:03:25,601 --> 00:03:28,841 Speaker 7: the time. It's usually a very simple task of going 56 00:03:28,841 --> 00:03:31,921 Speaker 7: to the person's house. Sometimes they forget to go to court. 57 00:03:32,081 --> 00:03:33,761 Speaker 7: More often than not they just don't want to go 58 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,241 Speaker 7: to court face reality, which I think was probably the 59 00:03:37,281 --> 00:03:41,201 Speaker 7: case in this instance. So we took him to the magistrates' court. 60 00:03:41,801 --> 00:03:44,881 Speaker 7: We backed up the warrant and the matter was listed 61 00:03:44,921 --> 00:03:49,001 Speaker 7: for hearing before the magistrate and Knucklehead One was duly 62 00:03:49,561 --> 00:03:53,561 Speaker 7: remanded in custody because he had no place of abode 63 00:03:53,681 --> 00:03:57,721 Speaker 7: to go to. That's essentially what happened on that one day, 64 00:03:58,601 --> 00:04:02,121 Speaker 7: and I didn't hear again from him for about two years. 65 00:04:02,521 --> 00:04:05,281 Speaker 7: So what happened was two years later, when we're rested 66 00:04:05,321 --> 00:04:08,321 Speaker 7: Knucklehead one Knucklehead two. It was also at the premises 67 00:04:08,361 --> 00:04:12,321 Speaker 7: where we arrested number one, so he took it upon 68 00:04:12,401 --> 00:04:17,121 Speaker 7: himself to follow us in his car back to Ringwood. 69 00:04:17,121 --> 00:04:19,321 Speaker 7: He demanded to know where we were taking Knucklehead one, 70 00:04:19,841 --> 00:04:21,921 Speaker 7: and I told him we're going to the Ringwood police 71 00:04:21,961 --> 00:04:24,801 Speaker 7: station so we could then have him hold pending his 72 00:04:24,961 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 7: hearing at the court. Knucklehead two then followed me in 73 00:04:28,841 --> 00:04:33,161 Speaker 7: his car, and what he did was he didn't just 74 00:04:33,241 --> 00:04:36,401 Speaker 7: follow me. He followed me up the Eastern Freeway where 75 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,640 Speaker 7: we're doing one hundred klometers an hour, probably within two 76 00:04:39,721 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 7: meters of the rear of my car, so he was 77 00:04:42,361 --> 00:04:46,561 Speaker 7: tailgating me the whole way, which was a dangerous sort 78 00:04:46,561 --> 00:04:48,961 Speaker 7: of thing to do. So what I did was I 79 00:04:49,001 --> 00:04:51,361 Speaker 7: overtook a truck, moved in front of the truck so 80 00:04:51,401 --> 00:04:54,241 Speaker 7: he couldn't follow directly behind me, and then at the 81 00:04:54,281 --> 00:04:57,921 Speaker 7: appropriate place, I turned off the freeway and went to Ringwood. 82 00:04:58,601 --> 00:05:00,841 Speaker 7: In order to do that, I had to stop at 83 00:05:00,841 --> 00:05:03,441 Speaker 7: a red light and do a U turn on white 84 00:05:03,481 --> 00:05:07,440 Speaker 7: Horse Road. I did the turn, Knucklehead two followed through 85 00:05:08,361 --> 00:05:11,721 Speaker 7: against a red light to keep up with me, and 86 00:05:11,841 --> 00:05:13,921 Speaker 7: he then disappeared and then turned up at court a 87 00:05:13,921 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 7: bit later on. So when I go back to the 88 00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:20,961 Speaker 7: office after the remand I looked up the police database 89 00:05:21,001 --> 00:05:24,081 Speaker 7: and I found that knuckle had two actually was unlicensed 90 00:05:24,561 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 7: and had of course gone through red light. So I 91 00:05:26,481 --> 00:05:30,241 Speaker 7: then summonsed him for a couple of traffic matters basically 92 00:05:30,281 --> 00:05:35,241 Speaker 7: because of his actions and his aggressive driving. He then 93 00:05:35,361 --> 00:05:39,081 Speaker 7: has to from the magistrate's court. There's a number of 94 00:05:39,241 --> 00:05:44,121 Speaker 7: hearings for his traffic matters, and he consistently fails to 95 00:05:44,121 --> 00:05:46,921 Speaker 7: turn up to court, and if he does and we 96 00:05:47,041 --> 00:05:50,641 Speaker 7: have to find him summons him again. He fails to 97 00:05:50,681 --> 00:05:53,841 Speaker 7: a turn up at court again. He then claims he's 98 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,481 Speaker 7: not ready for his hearings, and it goes on for 99 00:05:57,521 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 7: two years with him failing to turn up and we 100 00:05:59,561 --> 00:06:01,921 Speaker 7: have to go and get a warrant, arrest him and 101 00:06:02,081 --> 00:06:05,561 Speaker 7: take him back before the court. So he's just using 102 00:06:05,681 --> 00:06:09,921 Speaker 7: delaying tactics to frustrate us. So two years go past, 103 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,961 Speaker 7: and then one day I'm sitting at my desk and 104 00:06:13,081 --> 00:06:16,801 Speaker 7: Knucklehead one apparently has run and wants to speak to me. 105 00:06:17,681 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 7: So what I do is I quickly get my phone 106 00:06:21,361 --> 00:06:25,601 Speaker 7: out because I know he's going to be abusive, because 107 00:06:26,361 --> 00:06:28,721 Speaker 7: not because he was abusive to me the first time, 108 00:06:28,801 --> 00:06:31,721 Speaker 7: but he's known in the area to be abusive towards 109 00:06:31,721 --> 00:06:35,281 Speaker 7: all police. So I get my phone out and I 110 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:38,280 Speaker 7: finally take the call, and I put my office phone 111 00:06:38,281 --> 00:06:43,081 Speaker 7: on speaker and I then record a ten minute verbal 112 00:06:43,121 --> 00:06:47,161 Speaker 7: abuse from this bloke. Because he's claiming that I kidnapped him. 113 00:06:47,521 --> 00:06:50,521 Speaker 7: I have really no idea what it was on about. 114 00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:54,801 Speaker 8: And he doesn't recognize your legal authority, he says, because 115 00:06:54,841 --> 00:06:58,361 Speaker 8: he's a sovereign citizen, he doesn't have to recognize the police. 116 00:06:58,841 --> 00:07:02,201 Speaker 5: You're illegal, or your actions are illegal. You're a terrorist. 117 00:07:02,481 --> 00:07:03,761 Speaker 5: You've kidnapped him. 118 00:07:03,921 --> 00:07:07,841 Speaker 7: That's what he's claiming. So what's actually happened is we 119 00:07:07,961 --> 00:07:10,921 Speaker 7: executed the warrant on the day he fronted before magistrate. 120 00:07:11,521 --> 00:07:14,561 Speaker 7: You can't front anyone before magistrate unless they've been duly 121 00:07:14,641 --> 00:07:18,841 Speaker 7: presented and there are charges before the court. So what 122 00:07:18,961 --> 00:07:23,281 Speaker 7: is claiming is just ridiculous. What happened in actual fact, 123 00:07:23,681 --> 00:07:28,761 Speaker 7: was the detective who actually charged him with the initial offenses. 124 00:07:29,441 --> 00:07:34,161 Speaker 7: He has completed what we call leap reports, which update 125 00:07:34,241 --> 00:07:37,801 Speaker 7: the police database, and he's just written down the wrong 126 00:07:37,881 --> 00:07:43,761 Speaker 7: date on that form. So when Knucklehead one has decided 127 00:07:43,801 --> 00:07:48,081 Speaker 7: to contest the matter, he's requested all the documents that 128 00:07:48,201 --> 00:07:51,401 Speaker 7: police have in relation to him for his case because 129 00:07:51,401 --> 00:07:54,041 Speaker 7: he wants to fight the charges. He's looked at the 130 00:07:54,081 --> 00:07:57,521 Speaker 7: documents he's received and it shows that he was actually 131 00:07:57,961 --> 00:08:00,561 Speaker 7: not arrested on the day, but he was arrested one 132 00:08:00,601 --> 00:08:05,001 Speaker 7: month or two months later. So he's claiming that because 133 00:08:05,121 --> 00:08:07,161 Speaker 7: it says that on the database, he must have been 134 00:08:07,201 --> 00:08:12,241 Speaker 7: illegally arrested and detained. So therefore he's when he's rung 135 00:08:12,361 --> 00:08:15,761 Speaker 7: me up, he's claiming that I actually kidnapped him and 136 00:08:15,841 --> 00:08:19,601 Speaker 7: had him locked up without charge, which is just ridiculous. 137 00:08:20,561 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. Legal term for it's called pollis Yeah, that's right. 138 00:08:24,241 --> 00:08:29,321 Speaker 7: Absolutely. So I decide what I'm going to do is 139 00:08:29,361 --> 00:08:33,321 Speaker 7: I'm going to charge Diplake with using a telecommunications device 140 00:08:33,401 --> 00:08:37,521 Speaker 7: to menace and harass. So I take out a summons 141 00:08:37,641 --> 00:08:40,481 Speaker 7: or I apply for a summons for that, and that 142 00:08:40,681 --> 00:08:46,201 Speaker 7: shows up on the police database. Unbeknownst to me, Knucklehead 143 00:08:46,201 --> 00:08:49,081 Speaker 7: One has being looked at by the counter Terrorism group 144 00:08:49,161 --> 00:08:52,761 Speaker 7: in vic Pole. I was totally unaware of this, but 145 00:08:52,881 --> 00:08:54,761 Speaker 7: I get a call from them and they say, listen, 146 00:08:54,921 --> 00:08:58,121 Speaker 7: the police Minister has been looking at knucklehead one because 147 00:08:58,241 --> 00:09:01,481 Speaker 7: he has been arrasing members of Parliament and they want 148 00:09:01,561 --> 00:09:05,361 Speaker 7: something done about it. But of course the politicians don't 149 00:09:05,361 --> 00:09:07,961 Speaker 7: want to make the complaint. They just want the police 150 00:09:08,001 --> 00:09:11,841 Speaker 7: to do something without actually getting themselves involved. So they 151 00:09:11,921 --> 00:09:15,521 Speaker 7: see that I have summoned this bloke and they ring 152 00:09:15,601 --> 00:09:18,281 Speaker 7: out and say listen, don't go ahead with your summons. 153 00:09:18,321 --> 00:09:21,441 Speaker 7: We're going to charge you with stalking you. I said, well, 154 00:09:21,641 --> 00:09:23,801 Speaker 7: it was just the one phone call, and they said, 155 00:09:23,841 --> 00:09:26,121 Speaker 7: oh no, no, he's been sending out emails about you 156 00:09:26,161 --> 00:09:27,961 Speaker 7: for the last six months. 157 00:09:27,961 --> 00:09:30,681 Speaker 1: Never told me what is alleging in those emails. 158 00:09:31,681 --> 00:09:34,721 Speaker 7: Well, he was alleging that I'd kidnapped him, that I 159 00:09:34,801 --> 00:09:38,841 Speaker 7: was a terrorist, that I was a pedophile, all baseless 160 00:09:38,881 --> 00:09:42,801 Speaker 7: sort of stuff. It was just disgusting things that you 161 00:09:42,881 --> 00:09:44,841 Speaker 7: there was no substance to it, but he was just 162 00:09:45,641 --> 00:09:49,001 Speaker 7: venting on these emails. The problem for me was these 163 00:09:49,041 --> 00:09:53,001 Speaker 7: emails were being sent unberknownst to me to the Chief 164 00:09:53,001 --> 00:09:58,881 Speaker 7: Commissioner of Police, other high ranking police officers, magistrates, lawyers 165 00:09:59,081 --> 00:10:03,241 Speaker 7: and other people who I've come across in my professional career. 166 00:10:04,041 --> 00:10:07,121 Speaker 7: And I'm pretty much out because I should have been 167 00:10:07,161 --> 00:10:09,921 Speaker 7: told that this was happening, because when he rang me. 168 00:10:10,001 --> 00:10:13,041 Speaker 7: If I had known about these emails when he rang me, 169 00:10:13,081 --> 00:10:15,441 Speaker 7: I would have dealt with the phone call, probably in 170 00:10:15,441 --> 00:10:19,521 Speaker 7: a much different manner than what I did, because I 171 00:10:19,601 --> 00:10:22,921 Speaker 7: was just taken by surprise after two years, So had 172 00:10:22,961 --> 00:10:25,001 Speaker 7: I known, there might have been a different outcome. 173 00:10:25,281 --> 00:10:28,041 Speaker 8: I've heard the phone call and he's just vending at you, 174 00:10:28,561 --> 00:10:31,521 Speaker 8: and there's plenty of veiled or even direct threats. He's 175 00:10:31,521 --> 00:10:33,721 Speaker 8: talking about the fact that you're a. 176 00:10:33,561 --> 00:10:36,161 Speaker 5: Coward and if it was one on one without your 177 00:10:36,201 --> 00:10:39,681 Speaker 5: magic blues, soon things a bit different, and it's very 178 00:10:40,041 --> 00:10:40,921 Speaker 5: very unpleasant. 179 00:10:41,841 --> 00:10:45,321 Speaker 7: Yeah, it is unpleasant. And I did try and flesh 180 00:10:45,401 --> 00:10:46,961 Speaker 7: that out on the phone with him as to what 181 00:10:47,001 --> 00:10:50,241 Speaker 7: he was actually trying to say, but he was too 182 00:10:50,361 --> 00:10:53,521 Speaker 7: cunning to really come out and say exactly what he meant. 183 00:10:54,121 --> 00:10:57,761 Speaker 7: But it should be noted that when he damaged a 184 00:10:57,841 --> 00:11:01,441 Speaker 7: few guy's office, he actually told them at that office, 185 00:11:01,441 --> 00:11:05,481 Speaker 7: he threatened them that he had the constitutional right to 186 00:11:05,561 --> 00:11:09,401 Speaker 7: go on a shooting spree if he basically didn't get answers. 187 00:11:10,281 --> 00:11:14,161 Speaker 7: So that's the sort of mindset these people have, making 188 00:11:14,201 --> 00:11:19,761 Speaker 7: threats and demeaning people. And what happened next, well, what 189 00:11:19,841 --> 00:11:24,401 Speaker 7: happened next was the counter terrorism detectives charge knucklehead one 190 00:11:24,641 --> 00:11:28,561 Speaker 7: with stalking me and would actually go on to charge 191 00:11:28,601 --> 00:11:31,401 Speaker 7: him with stalking two other police officers who I won't name, 192 00:11:32,201 --> 00:11:35,441 Speaker 7: and that would later on some years later because of 193 00:11:35,481 --> 00:11:38,321 Speaker 7: all the delay, it would end up in a contested 194 00:11:38,641 --> 00:11:42,321 Speaker 7: matter at the county court. But as soon as they 195 00:11:42,401 --> 00:11:45,841 Speaker 7: charged him, he was charged, and he was reminded he 196 00:11:45,961 --> 00:11:50,161 Speaker 7: was unable to continue to send me these emails because 197 00:11:50,761 --> 00:11:52,721 Speaker 7: he would be in breach of his bail if and 198 00:11:52,761 --> 00:11:56,321 Speaker 7: when he got bail. So what happens His knucklehead number two, 199 00:11:56,361 --> 00:11:59,201 Speaker 7: who I charged with the traffic offenses, takes up the 200 00:11:59,241 --> 00:12:02,521 Speaker 7: cause and he starts sending out the same emails about me, 201 00:12:03,281 --> 00:12:06,681 Speaker 7: and I say, well, up counter terrorism, I pointed out 202 00:12:06,681 --> 00:12:10,241 Speaker 7: to them and I said, this bike's just another knuckle 203 00:12:10,401 --> 00:12:14,121 Speaker 7: ed knuckle lad too, and he's now stalking me, so 204 00:12:14,721 --> 00:12:17,201 Speaker 7: I think he's a co offender. You need to charge him, 205 00:12:17,481 --> 00:12:20,801 Speaker 7: and they go, well, it's not really matter for us. 206 00:12:21,201 --> 00:12:24,881 Speaker 7: Obviously he's not on their list of targets because they're 207 00:12:24,881 --> 00:12:28,081 Speaker 7: dealing with these other people. But he is actually a 208 00:12:28,081 --> 00:12:31,441 Speaker 7: co offender, so they should have charged him straight away, 209 00:12:31,681 --> 00:12:35,641 Speaker 7: but they didn't, and they said the detectives in my 210 00:12:35,721 --> 00:12:38,681 Speaker 7: region would have to deal with him. And I'm saying, well, 211 00:12:38,881 --> 00:12:42,681 Speaker 7: the evidence is all the same, it's all identical, but anyway, 212 00:12:43,001 --> 00:12:48,001 Speaker 7: so that matter is then referred to my inspector and 213 00:12:48,281 --> 00:12:52,401 Speaker 7: in Eastern region, and they appoint a couple of detectives 214 00:12:52,401 --> 00:12:57,761 Speaker 7: that are neighboring CIB who are independent to then investigate 215 00:12:58,041 --> 00:13:02,281 Speaker 7: this spike stalking me. What happens next, he wouldn't believe 216 00:13:03,041 --> 00:13:05,641 Speaker 7: is that because of the reputation of them these people, 217 00:13:06,401 --> 00:13:10,241 Speaker 7: those two detectives promptly went off on sick leave, which 218 00:13:10,321 --> 00:13:14,241 Speaker 7: was the only way they could get out of investigating 219 00:13:14,241 --> 00:13:16,761 Speaker 7: this matter and becoming the next victims. 220 00:13:17,801 --> 00:13:19,321 Speaker 1: And they feed that was going to happen. 221 00:13:20,441 --> 00:13:22,201 Speaker 7: Yeah, they were in fear that they were going to 222 00:13:22,241 --> 00:13:26,481 Speaker 7: be the next victims and cop all this abuse, so 223 00:13:27,201 --> 00:13:31,721 Speaker 7: they went off sick and then their officer in charge said, well, 224 00:13:32,041 --> 00:13:35,721 Speaker 7: this is really their counter terrorism matter. So they've told 225 00:13:35,801 --> 00:13:38,401 Speaker 7: me that it's got to go back to counter terrorism. 226 00:13:38,481 --> 00:13:41,721 Speaker 7: I'm going, well, I'm the victim here. They're stalking me. 227 00:13:41,761 --> 00:13:44,841 Speaker 7: I'm the victim. It's not up to me to investigate 228 00:13:45,401 --> 00:13:48,561 Speaker 7: these bikes and run the charges, run the case. So 229 00:13:49,721 --> 00:13:53,761 Speaker 7: between counter terrorism in Eastern Region, they're about to stand off, 230 00:13:53,801 --> 00:13:57,041 Speaker 7: they're both refusing to do it, and I'm just sitting there, going, 231 00:13:57,561 --> 00:14:01,441 Speaker 7: this is ridiculous. I'm the victim. And there's other people 232 00:14:01,441 --> 00:14:02,921 Speaker 7: who have gone off six so they don't have to 233 00:14:02,961 --> 00:14:07,641 Speaker 7: become involved. I'm still sitting here running around investigating local crime. 234 00:14:08,481 --> 00:14:12,201 Speaker 7: So it got to the point where I was getting 235 00:14:12,241 --> 00:14:14,921 Speaker 7: fairly upset about this, and I said, well, I'm not 236 00:14:14,921 --> 00:14:17,601 Speaker 7: going to come to work tomorrow until you can work 237 00:14:17,641 --> 00:14:21,721 Speaker 7: out who's looking after me. I'm not coming back to work. 238 00:14:22,601 --> 00:14:26,681 Speaker 7: And I was off for about fifteen weeks on sick leave, 239 00:14:27,401 --> 00:14:32,321 Speaker 7: stressed out because I was continuing to be harassed, and 240 00:14:34,241 --> 00:14:38,521 Speaker 7: the Victorian Police Department just let me down. Eventually, their 241 00:14:38,681 --> 00:14:41,641 Speaker 7: job was taken up by counterterrorism, as it should have 242 00:14:41,681 --> 00:14:45,201 Speaker 7: been in the first place. And what's that was done? Yes, sorry, 243 00:14:45,281 --> 00:14:46,481 Speaker 7: turned back to work. 244 00:14:46,561 --> 00:14:47,321 Speaker 1: For these guys. 245 00:14:47,441 --> 00:14:51,041 Speaker 9: Just really so your employers should say Victoria Police really 246 00:14:51,081 --> 00:14:55,601 Speaker 9: didn't know how to handle these vexatious litigants who were 247 00:14:55,761 --> 00:14:59,601 Speaker 9: just doing everything to harass and intimidate you with bogus 248 00:14:59,721 --> 00:15:00,201 Speaker 9: legal action. 249 00:15:00,441 --> 00:15:03,521 Speaker 8: They've also tried private prosecutions of you at the same time, 250 00:15:03,641 --> 00:15:06,441 Speaker 8: which is one of the hallmarks of the IS individuals. 251 00:15:06,801 --> 00:15:09,481 Speaker 1: They triw these private prosecutions. What's that all about? 252 00:15:09,841 --> 00:15:14,081 Speaker 7: So Knucklehead number, so he then took out an intervention 253 00:15:14,321 --> 00:15:16,601 Speaker 7: order or tried to take out an indivention order against 254 00:15:16,601 --> 00:15:21,321 Speaker 7: me and one of his cohorts, which is let's call 255 00:15:21,401 --> 00:15:23,881 Speaker 7: hi Knucklehead three, who I had to run in with 256 00:15:24,041 --> 00:15:27,721 Speaker 7: at court. He also took out an indivention order against me, 257 00:15:28,201 --> 00:15:32,761 Speaker 7: or tried to. The reason was that Knucklehead three was 258 00:15:32,761 --> 00:15:36,561 Speaker 7: giving advice to Knucklehead two at his court hearing and 259 00:15:36,601 --> 00:15:40,441 Speaker 7: he was evicted from the court for harassing people within 260 00:15:40,481 --> 00:15:43,921 Speaker 7: the court by the magistrate. When we came out of court, 261 00:15:44,001 --> 00:15:46,601 Speaker 7: he come up to me and was yelling at me 262 00:15:46,641 --> 00:15:49,921 Speaker 7: in my face in the court precinct that he wanted 263 00:15:49,921 --> 00:15:53,321 Speaker 7: to know what my name was. And he had his 264 00:15:53,401 --> 00:15:56,241 Speaker 7: pen and paper held up in front of my face, 265 00:15:56,721 --> 00:15:59,681 Speaker 7: yelling at me, what's your name? What's your name? And 266 00:15:59,761 --> 00:16:01,441 Speaker 7: I said, well, I don't actually have to give you 267 00:16:01,481 --> 00:16:04,961 Speaker 7: my name. And you can ask me all you like, 268 00:16:05,121 --> 00:16:07,201 Speaker 7: but I'm not going to give you my name. So 269 00:16:08,201 --> 00:16:10,401 Speaker 7: he then followed me out of court. He followed me 270 00:16:10,441 --> 00:16:14,601 Speaker 7: down Lonsdale Street and I said to him, well, I'm 271 00:16:14,641 --> 00:16:17,081 Speaker 7: going to catch the bus, doncast. You're free to join 272 00:16:17,121 --> 00:16:20,321 Speaker 7: me if you like, and then he walked off. The 273 00:16:20,401 --> 00:16:23,921 Speaker 7: next thing, both him and Knucklehead too take out intervention 274 00:16:24,081 --> 00:16:27,921 Speaker 7: orders against me, claiming that I had harassed them. It 275 00:16:27,961 --> 00:16:30,721 Speaker 7: was all lies. Everything they said was just lies, that 276 00:16:30,801 --> 00:16:33,681 Speaker 7: I'd arrested them and threatened them and that sort of thing. 277 00:16:34,361 --> 00:16:38,881 Speaker 7: Because in Victoria, when you want to report harassment or 278 00:16:39,081 --> 00:16:41,241 Speaker 7: take out an intervention order, you can tell the clerk 279 00:16:41,281 --> 00:16:43,961 Speaker 7: of Courts anything you like and you're not held to 280 00:16:44,041 --> 00:16:48,201 Speaker 7: account as to the veracity of what you claim, so 281 00:16:48,681 --> 00:16:51,521 Speaker 7: the claim goes through. And the first thing I knew 282 00:16:51,521 --> 00:16:56,041 Speaker 7: about this was I was called up into my local 283 00:16:56,041 --> 00:16:59,041 Speaker 7: inspector's office and said, sorry to do this to you, 284 00:16:59,121 --> 00:17:01,681 Speaker 7: but I have to serve these two intervention orders on you, 285 00:17:02,481 --> 00:17:05,761 Speaker 7: which was the first i'd heard of it. Victimized here 286 00:17:05,761 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 7: by these boats and then I'm being served intervention orders 287 00:17:10,681 --> 00:17:14,281 Speaker 7: against me, which I have to answer. How do you 288 00:17:14,321 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 7: answer deny something which is just totally false. It's difficult. 289 00:17:20,321 --> 00:17:24,721 Speaker 7: So I'm then represented by the Victorian Government Solicitor's Office 290 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:29,281 Speaker 7: in relation to these two intervention orders, and they want 291 00:17:29,321 --> 00:17:32,801 Speaker 7: me to come to court and deny everything. They said, well, 292 00:17:32,801 --> 00:17:34,801 Speaker 7: I am I going to do that because it's just 293 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:39,001 Speaker 7: all made up, so it should just be summarily dismissed. 294 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:41,441 Speaker 7: There's no truth to any of what they are alleging. 295 00:17:43,281 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 8: You feel like you're almost dignifying these accusations by having 296 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 8: to go to court to deny them. And it's all 297 00:17:49,521 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 8: about using the process to manipulate and intimidate. 298 00:17:53,281 --> 00:17:56,601 Speaker 7: You absolutely, And what they want to do is they 299 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:59,440 Speaker 7: want to get me. The VTSO is asking me to 300 00:17:59,441 --> 00:18:01,841 Speaker 7: get into the witness box and give evidence against them. 301 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:04,440 Speaker 7: But what that then does is that allows them to 302 00:18:04,481 --> 00:18:08,041 Speaker 7: cross execs and me and just make up more rubbish. 303 00:18:08,241 --> 00:18:10,120 Speaker 7: And that's what they're doing. They're trying to harass me, 304 00:18:10,561 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 7: using the court to harass me. So I said to 305 00:18:13,120 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 7: the VGs so I'm not going to court just simply 306 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:19,160 Speaker 7: so they can harass me further. This went on for 307 00:18:19,201 --> 00:18:22,880 Speaker 7: two years. The VGSA kept calling me up wanting me 308 00:18:23,001 --> 00:18:26,880 Speaker 7: to attend court. I refused to go, and I pointed 309 00:18:26,921 --> 00:18:30,001 Speaker 7: out to them, what's to stop me from making a 310 00:18:30,001 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 7: false claim about the chief Commissioner of Police or the 311 00:18:33,001 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 7: Premier of Victoria. And what you're going to insist that 312 00:18:37,761 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 7: they go to court and give evidence. I don't think so, 313 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 7: he said, I want to be treated the same as 314 00:18:42,481 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 7: what they would be. And it took them two years, 315 00:18:45,360 --> 00:18:47,721 Speaker 7: but they finally had the matters dismissed out of hand. 316 00:18:48,481 --> 00:18:53,241 Speaker 7: But that wasn't it Knucklehead number three. He then decides 317 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,561 Speaker 7: to take out a private prosecution of me for harassment 318 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,960 Speaker 7: or whatever it was he made up. I can't recall. Again. 319 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,641 Speaker 7: The first thing I find out about that is a prosecutor. 320 00:19:06,241 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 7: She finds this charge appearing and she thinks it's interesting 321 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:14,521 Speaker 7: that I've been charged with this alleged harassment defense or 322 00:19:14,521 --> 00:19:19,561 Speaker 7: whatever it was. So once again they're trying to attack me. 323 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 7: So knucklehead number three is setting it up so he 324 00:19:24,961 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 7: can make false accusations against me in court, get me 325 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,561 Speaker 7: in as an offender, get me into the witness box, 326 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,681 Speaker 7: and he wants to harass me again. That's his aim. 327 00:19:35,281 --> 00:19:37,880 Speaker 7: No one looks after me. I have to do all 328 00:19:37,921 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 7: the running around, all right. So I'm the one who's 329 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:45,160 Speaker 7: been charged by this bloke, and I'm sort of wondering, well, 330 00:19:45,241 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 7: if I've been charged by him, where's the internal investigation, 331 00:19:49,281 --> 00:19:52,640 Speaker 7: if I've allegedly been harassing him? You know, where's that 332 00:19:52,721 --> 00:19:56,041 Speaker 7: all happening? But that comes up a bit later. So 333 00:19:56,961 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 7: what happens is I get onto the Vgso the VGSO 334 00:20:00,001 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 7: told me, well, all public prosecutions, if they're mate brought 335 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 7: by the public, you will have to go through the 336 00:20:06,001 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 7: Office of Public Prosecutions. So they refer me to them. 337 00:20:11,721 --> 00:20:14,801 Speaker 7: See victim. I'm here the victim having to do all this. 338 00:20:15,360 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 7: No one in the Victoria Police is looking after me. 339 00:20:17,961 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 7: So I ring the officer the OPP and they advise 340 00:20:22,001 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 7: me that all public prosecutions, even if they're bought by 341 00:20:25,721 --> 00:20:29,441 Speaker 7: private individuals, have to go through the OPP for scrutiny. 342 00:20:30,041 --> 00:20:32,441 Speaker 7: They've had a look at what this bike has done. 343 00:20:32,761 --> 00:20:35,681 Speaker 7: They know it's all false. So on the day where 344 00:20:35,721 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 7: I'm meant to turn up to court, I don't turn up, 345 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:39,640 Speaker 7: like I said to the VGs. So I said the 346 00:20:39,681 --> 00:20:41,481 Speaker 7: same to the OPP. I'm not turning up to court 347 00:20:41,961 --> 00:20:46,801 Speaker 7: to justify this bloke and giving breath. So what happened 348 00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 7: on the day was he goes to court expecting to 349 00:20:50,120 --> 00:20:53,761 Speaker 7: find me there. He's ready to hammer me in the 350 00:20:53,761 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 7: witness box, but the opp turn up and the app 351 00:20:58,120 --> 00:21:01,761 Speaker 7: when the matters called address the magistrate and say, being 352 00:21:01,761 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 7: the public prosecutor, we're now taking over the prosecution of 353 00:21:05,241 --> 00:21:08,521 Speaker 7: this case. And they take it off Knucklehead number three 354 00:21:09,521 --> 00:21:13,761 Speaker 7: and they then say we're withdrawing the matter. And that 355 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:15,601 Speaker 7: was the end of that. That's how it was dealt with. 356 00:21:16,281 --> 00:21:20,121 Speaker 7: So he goes to court expecting a big day and 357 00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 7: he leave's with his tail between his legs. So not 358 00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 7: satisfied with that, he then makes a complaint to the 359 00:21:27,120 --> 00:21:31,761 Speaker 7: Ethical Standards Department about me being rude to him in court. 360 00:21:32,441 --> 00:21:36,561 Speaker 7: And rather than make a few simple inquiries with my 361 00:21:36,681 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 7: office and ask like, I'm being rude to him in court, 362 00:21:40,801 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 7: that's it? What sort of offense is that? There is 363 00:21:44,241 --> 00:21:46,920 Speaker 7: no offense. It's not like I've assaulted him or harassed 364 00:21:46,961 --> 00:21:49,761 Speaker 7: him in he says I was rude to him. So 365 00:21:50,041 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 7: rather than ring my office and find out what's going 366 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,281 Speaker 7: on with this, doing a little bit of initial action themselves, no, 367 00:21:57,360 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 7: they just send the file out and get someone to 368 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,961 Speaker 7: actually physically interview me. So I'm subjected to an internally 369 00:22:05,041 --> 00:22:10,001 Speaker 7: investigation based on a lie where they haven't even checked 370 00:22:10,001 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 7: the veracity of the information, or they haven't done any 371 00:22:14,521 --> 00:22:17,801 Speaker 7: sort of leap checks, because it would have found that 372 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:22,400 Speaker 7: I'm being harassed by these people because there are charges 373 00:22:22,441 --> 00:22:26,761 Speaker 7: pinning against the victim of stalking, so you would think 374 00:22:26,761 --> 00:22:28,801 Speaker 7: they could at least have done that, but they didn't, 375 00:22:28,961 --> 00:22:31,481 Speaker 7: So once again I'm let down by Victoria Police. 376 00:22:32,241 --> 00:22:36,161 Speaker 5: The tone of all this is that you and Victoria 377 00:22:36,241 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 5: Police and the opp all have to abide by the rules, 378 00:22:39,041 --> 00:22:42,880 Speaker 5: do you process and so forth, whereas these individuals who 379 00:22:42,921 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 5: don't believe in the system can just make up whatever 380 00:22:45,961 --> 00:22:50,881 Speaker 5: they like, come in there, use every single angle and 381 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 5: you've got your hand tied behind your back and they're 382 00:22:53,441 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 5: free to attack you, which seems incredibly oppressive. 383 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:59,281 Speaker 1: And I can imagine the stress and anxiety that it 384 00:22:59,481 --> 00:23:00,201 Speaker 1: brought to you. 385 00:23:00,761 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 7: Well, because it's consonant. It was over six year period, 386 00:23:04,120 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 7: I was having to afi Davids for the OPP I 387 00:23:06,961 --> 00:23:11,321 Speaker 7: was having to write statements and things for the stalking matters, 388 00:23:12,041 --> 00:23:17,681 Speaker 7: and eventually knucklehead number two, as I said, he's stalking 389 00:23:17,721 --> 00:23:21,761 Speaker 7: of me, eventually went to the counter terrorism So Knucklehead 390 00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:25,441 Speaker 7: number two, who was eventually charged by counter terrorism team 391 00:23:25,761 --> 00:23:28,440 Speaker 7: with stalking me. So I now had Knucklehead one and 392 00:23:28,481 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 7: Knucklehead two charged with these charges by counter terrorism. So 393 00:23:34,321 --> 00:23:37,321 Speaker 7: in the meantime, Knucklehead number two, who I charged with 394 00:23:37,321 --> 00:23:41,361 Speaker 7: the traffic offenses, after about four years, we finally got 395 00:23:41,481 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 7: him into court. He represented himself and started referring to 396 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,001 Speaker 7: me as a pedophile in the court, and like you 397 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,561 Speaker 7: were just indicating, he didn't have to abide by the 398 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,801 Speaker 7: norms of the court, because the magistrates and the judges 399 00:23:57,840 --> 00:24:01,761 Speaker 7: wanted to give these people leeway so they can say, well, 400 00:24:01,801 --> 00:24:04,521 Speaker 7: I gave him every opportunity, and we gave him a 401 00:24:04,521 --> 00:24:07,001 Speaker 7: lot of lee with his mannerism and all the rest 402 00:24:07,041 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 7: of it in order to get the job done, so 403 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:14,161 Speaker 7: they're not held to account. So when that matter did 404 00:24:14,201 --> 00:24:17,601 Speaker 7: go before the magistrate, which he was found guilty of, 405 00:24:18,281 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 7: he started referring to me as a pedophile and a 406 00:24:22,241 --> 00:24:25,401 Speaker 7: terrorist in the court. And I'm sitting there listening to 407 00:24:25,441 --> 00:24:28,360 Speaker 7: all this, and the magistrate is allowing him to say it. 408 00:24:28,441 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 7: He's not holding him to account. So I stood up, pointedly, 409 00:24:33,961 --> 00:24:38,441 Speaker 7: showed my disgust to the magistrate and walked out. I 410 00:24:38,481 --> 00:24:40,561 Speaker 7: was told by my colleagues as soon as I walked 411 00:24:40,561 --> 00:24:43,481 Speaker 7: out and did my best to slam a door, which 412 00:24:43,521 --> 00:24:48,041 Speaker 7: is almost impossible to slam. He finally stopped him and 413 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 7: found him guilty and sentenced him with a fine and 414 00:24:51,001 --> 00:24:55,201 Speaker 7: whatever for these minor traffic offenses. So it was finally finished, 415 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 7: but it actually wasn't because he then appealed that conviction 416 00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 7: into the county court. So we then go to the 417 00:25:03,961 --> 00:25:07,881 Speaker 7: county court some god no six months later for an appeal, 418 00:25:08,721 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 7: and the appeal is heard by judge only, so the 419 00:25:12,681 --> 00:25:16,481 Speaker 7: matter's appeal there, and I turn up to court because 420 00:25:16,521 --> 00:25:19,681 Speaker 7: I have to give evidence. We basically retry the same thing. 421 00:25:20,360 --> 00:25:23,680 Speaker 7: So knucklehead number two is there, but also knucklehead number 422 00:25:23,681 --> 00:25:27,801 Speaker 7: one's turned up. Now Knucklehead number one he's on bail 423 00:25:28,481 --> 00:25:30,321 Speaker 7: and part of his bowel conditions is not to be 424 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:33,920 Speaker 7: within one hundred meters of me or harass me. Knucklehead 425 00:25:33,961 --> 00:25:36,721 Speaker 7: number two, of course, he's also in the same bait. 426 00:25:36,801 --> 00:25:39,561 Speaker 7: But we have to be in caught together because he's 427 00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:44,041 Speaker 7: appealing his traffic matters. So I bring it to the 428 00:25:44,041 --> 00:25:49,361 Speaker 7: attention of the prosecuting barrister and say, listen when we're 429 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,281 Speaker 7: going to court, because I'm going to be the first 430 00:25:51,281 --> 00:25:54,521 Speaker 7: witness when we're going to court. I want knucklehead number 431 00:25:54,561 --> 00:25:57,801 Speaker 7: one kicked out of court because he's in breach of 432 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,321 Speaker 7: his bail. He's not allowed to be within one hundred 433 00:26:00,360 --> 00:26:03,521 Speaker 7: meters of me. So we're going to court, and sure enough, 434 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,880 Speaker 7: knucklehead number one is in there, and he's advising knuckle 435 00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:11,001 Speaker 7: at number two, who's representing himself. They always represent themselves. 436 00:26:11,961 --> 00:26:16,321 Speaker 7: So I indicate to the prosecuting barriers so that knucklehead 437 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,801 Speaker 7: number one is there, but he ignores me. Once again. 438 00:26:21,041 --> 00:26:25,961 Speaker 7: I'm being let down by these prosecutors. So he ignores 439 00:26:26,001 --> 00:26:29,961 Speaker 7: me and he just starts asking me questions to introduce 440 00:26:30,041 --> 00:26:32,961 Speaker 7: my evidence in chief, and I didn't answer his questions. 441 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 7: I turned to the judge and I said, excuse me, 442 00:26:35,721 --> 00:26:39,120 Speaker 7: but this person over here he shouldn't be in court 443 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,961 Speaker 7: because he's on bail and part of his bowel conditions 444 00:26:42,001 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 7: is he can't be within one hundred meters of me. 445 00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:46,321 Speaker 7: So the judge wants to know the ins and outs 446 00:26:46,321 --> 00:26:49,680 Speaker 7: of all that. So we go through that and she 447 00:26:49,801 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 7: makes a very wise decision. Her decision is not to 448 00:26:53,481 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 7: tell him to leave the court. No, she tells me 449 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 7: to leave the court and to give my evidence from 450 00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:05,280 Speaker 7: another room in the county court via video link. So 451 00:27:06,321 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 7: I'm the one who gets punished for him breaching his bail. 452 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 7: I get kicked out of court, so I go to 453 00:27:13,441 --> 00:27:17,521 Speaker 7: another court room. You're basically talking into a video camera 454 00:27:18,120 --> 00:27:21,321 Speaker 7: to give your evidence. So I start going through my 455 00:27:21,360 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 7: evidence in chief, pretty disgusted as to my treatment so far. 456 00:27:26,681 --> 00:27:30,681 Speaker 7: And then once that's done, knuckle that number two decides 457 00:27:30,721 --> 00:27:33,761 Speaker 7: he gope to cross examine me. So he starts cross 458 00:27:33,801 --> 00:27:37,481 Speaker 7: examining me, and he refers to me as a terrorist, 459 00:27:38,281 --> 00:27:41,961 Speaker 7: and he's not stopped by the county court judge. He 460 00:27:42,481 --> 00:27:46,801 Speaker 7: makes other derogatory remarks to me, constantly refers to me 461 00:27:46,921 --> 00:27:51,360 Speaker 7: as a defective rather than as a detective. It's just 462 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,041 Speaker 7: a niggerly, little stupid thing, but it's an abuse of 463 00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:59,640 Speaker 7: the standards of what they should be complying with. No 464 00:27:59,801 --> 00:28:03,481 Speaker 7: barrister or solicitor or police officer for that matter, will 465 00:28:03,521 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 7: get away in a courtroom saying words like that without 466 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:12,161 Speaker 7: being rebuked by the magistrate. He then asks me some 467 00:28:12,281 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 7: questions which have no relevance at all, and again this 468 00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:23,360 Speaker 7: is going unchallenged. So he starts asking me about knucklehead 469 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 7: number one and how I kidnapped him. No relevance at 470 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,001 Speaker 7: all to the traffic matters. I I'm talking into the camera. 471 00:28:29,041 --> 00:28:31,281 Speaker 7: I say, well, I'm sorry, but I don't think any 472 00:28:31,281 --> 00:28:34,521 Speaker 7: of these questions are relevant. I get rebuked by the 473 00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,840 Speaker 7: judge saying it's not up to me to determine what 474 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:42,881 Speaker 7: relevance is. Well, apparently in her court, relevance is whatever 475 00:28:42,921 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 7: you like to say, because there's got nothing to do 476 00:28:45,401 --> 00:28:49,041 Speaker 7: with the appeal. Then finally he does it again and 477 00:28:49,121 --> 00:28:51,561 Speaker 7: refers to me as a terrorist, and by this time 478 00:28:52,121 --> 00:28:55,401 Speaker 7: I've had an af so I point direct ly end 479 00:28:55,441 --> 00:28:58,121 Speaker 7: of the camera like this and I said, don't you 480 00:28:58,281 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 7: fucking call me a terrorist? With that, my screen went blank, 481 00:29:04,161 --> 00:29:07,201 Speaker 7: and I was sitting there for about ten minutes wondering 482 00:29:07,401 --> 00:29:11,801 Speaker 7: what the hell's going on. That's true, As it turns out, 483 00:29:12,441 --> 00:29:16,561 Speaker 7: I get a call from the clerk from that courtroom 484 00:29:16,601 --> 00:29:19,240 Speaker 7: and I've been asked, in a very polite term, to 485 00:29:19,241 --> 00:29:22,161 Speaker 7: come back to court six. I think it was when 486 00:29:22,161 --> 00:29:25,841 Speaker 7: we were having the hearing. So I go down there 487 00:29:25,881 --> 00:29:30,041 Speaker 7: and I find the court is totally empty, but my barrister, 488 00:29:30,161 --> 00:29:32,561 Speaker 7: my prosecuting barristers sitting out the front of the court 489 00:29:33,041 --> 00:29:35,161 Speaker 7: and I said, well, what happened there? Am I in 490 00:29:35,201 --> 00:29:39,721 Speaker 7: trouble for what I said, and he said no, he said, 491 00:29:39,881 --> 00:29:45,681 Speaker 7: what happened was after you made those comments, knuckle Had 492 00:29:45,721 --> 00:29:50,601 Speaker 7: one and two just went absolutely berserk. They started abusing everybody. 493 00:29:50,761 --> 00:29:55,001 Speaker 7: They wanted me to be arrested, et cetera, etc. And 494 00:29:55,161 --> 00:29:57,841 Speaker 7: it was just complete mayhem in the court. The judge 495 00:29:57,841 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 7: had lost control of the court and Nuchael had one 496 00:30:02,041 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 7: and two stormed out. The judge gave them about inns 497 00:30:05,521 --> 00:30:09,161 Speaker 7: in which to return, which they didn't, so she decided 498 00:30:09,201 --> 00:30:14,201 Speaker 7: that Michael had too had on his own accord abandoned 499 00:30:14,241 --> 00:30:17,801 Speaker 7: his appeal and the appeal was struck out. But it's 500 00:30:17,841 --> 00:30:21,521 Speaker 7: just a circus, you know. It's a complete circus. 501 00:30:23,041 --> 00:30:26,641 Speaker 1: It really is. And all you've done is your duty. 502 00:30:26,961 --> 00:30:29,361 Speaker 1: You've got a duly issued warrant. 503 00:30:29,441 --> 00:30:31,601 Speaker 8: This is where this all begins, and it's now just 504 00:30:31,641 --> 00:30:35,321 Speaker 8: an abusive process where you're the one who was running 505 00:30:35,321 --> 00:30:38,281 Speaker 8: the risk of a contempt of court, whereas these guys 506 00:30:38,321 --> 00:30:41,401 Speaker 8: have complete contempt for the whole process which was this 507 00:30:41,481 --> 00:30:44,801 Speaker 8: s followed you into retirement better and other police officers 508 00:30:44,801 --> 00:30:47,361 Speaker 8: have basis as well. And I think it probably is 509 00:30:47,401 --> 00:30:50,401 Speaker 8: time that particularly is this. Recent events in the High 510 00:30:50,401 --> 00:30:53,241 Speaker 8: Country demonstrate these people do exist, and they're in numbers, 511 00:30:53,561 --> 00:30:56,601 Speaker 8: and I wonder what can be done to safeguard the 512 00:30:56,681 --> 00:31:01,001 Speaker 8: system to make sure these individuals can't abuse that system. 513 00:31:01,401 --> 00:31:05,881 Speaker 8: While I guess the system wants to give equal access 514 00:31:06,001 --> 00:31:09,601 Speaker 8: to people in court to make their matters, what can 515 00:31:09,641 --> 00:31:12,681 Speaker 8: be done to safeguard the integrity of the system. 516 00:31:12,881 --> 00:31:15,601 Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, there's a total lack of justice for 517 00:31:15,721 --> 00:31:18,761 Speaker 7: victims of these people. You know, in my case, I 518 00:31:18,801 --> 00:31:22,161 Speaker 7: was left down by Victoria Police with the kicking the 519 00:31:22,201 --> 00:31:24,761 Speaker 7: footy to each other as to who's going to take 520 00:31:24,801 --> 00:31:28,281 Speaker 7: the whot potato to investigate. I've been let down by 521 00:31:28,361 --> 00:31:31,641 Speaker 7: the judges and the magistrates for alan these people to 522 00:31:31,761 --> 00:31:34,881 Speaker 7: run circuses and run rings around them in their court. 523 00:31:35,841 --> 00:31:40,561 Speaker 7: And there is no consequences for these people. And because 524 00:31:40,561 --> 00:31:44,681 Speaker 7: of that, they're given breath to continue to flow out 525 00:31:44,681 --> 00:31:48,440 Speaker 7: the law and attack police using the legal system, which 526 00:31:48,961 --> 00:31:52,321 Speaker 7: of course they ain't believe in. But look, there's a 527 00:31:52,401 --> 00:31:55,121 Speaker 7: number of things that can be done. I think first 528 00:31:55,161 --> 00:31:57,281 Speaker 7: of all is people need to be held to account. 529 00:31:57,881 --> 00:32:00,601 Speaker 7: They need to be identified, and I think Victoria police 530 00:32:01,001 --> 00:32:07,081 Speaker 7: need a standing sort of task force that identify as 531 00:32:07,201 --> 00:32:12,161 Speaker 7: sovereign citizens and similar to the Sex Offenders Register, we 532 00:32:12,281 --> 00:32:15,521 Speaker 7: need a register of these people. So when police are 533 00:32:15,561 --> 00:32:18,321 Speaker 7: dealing with and they know the sort of person they're 534 00:32:18,321 --> 00:32:21,881 Speaker 7: dealing with, and they know that they have to deal 535 00:32:21,921 --> 00:32:24,601 Speaker 7: with them in a certain way, and it would at 536 00:32:24,681 --> 00:32:27,041 Speaker 7: least a learn them to who these sovereign citizens are 537 00:32:27,081 --> 00:32:29,801 Speaker 7: and what the outcomes could be and that they need 538 00:32:29,881 --> 00:32:33,681 Speaker 7: to be dealt with very carefully. As I said earlier, 539 00:32:34,081 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 7: knucklehead number one he thinks it's his constitutional right to 540 00:32:37,521 --> 00:32:40,761 Speaker 7: go on a shooting spree. That's the sort of thing 541 00:32:40,841 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 7: that the police need to know that that's the person 542 00:32:43,761 --> 00:32:48,801 Speaker 7: they're dealing with. Secondly, judges and magistrates, they need to 543 00:32:48,881 --> 00:32:51,641 Speaker 7: be educated. People always say, oh, police need to be 544 00:32:51,761 --> 00:32:55,561 Speaker 7: educated about how to deal with people who have mental health. 545 00:32:55,681 --> 00:32:58,481 Speaker 7: Police need to be educated about people who have diabetes. 546 00:32:58,761 --> 00:33:01,921 Speaker 7: It's all about educating the police. I think it's time 547 00:33:02,121 --> 00:33:05,361 Speaker 7: that the education was given to other people, such as 548 00:33:05,481 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 7: magistrates and judges, so they know that dealing with people 549 00:33:09,441 --> 00:33:12,841 Speaker 7: who are used delaying tactics to engage in when they 550 00:33:12,841 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 7: face court, they need to know that things like the 551 00:33:17,241 --> 00:33:20,081 Speaker 7: way they do. They need to know what their delaying 552 00:33:20,121 --> 00:33:23,481 Speaker 7: tactics are, such as they claim they haven't got a 553 00:33:23,521 --> 00:33:26,681 Speaker 7: copy of the brief which they have. I've charge nucklehead 554 00:33:26,721 --> 00:33:29,921 Speaker 7: number two with three briefs over a period of two 555 00:33:29,961 --> 00:33:33,641 Speaker 7: years because he claimed and repeated to claim that he'd 556 00:33:33,681 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 7: never got a copy. It's just a way to delay things. 557 00:33:37,521 --> 00:33:39,401 Speaker 7: The fact is that they bring in and they go 558 00:33:39,561 --> 00:33:42,241 Speaker 7: sick at the last minute. They then need a long 559 00:33:42,281 --> 00:33:44,761 Speaker 7: adjournment because they need to read up about the brief 560 00:33:44,801 --> 00:33:48,401 Speaker 7: they're going to represent themselves. Another one is they turn 561 00:33:48,481 --> 00:33:49,601 Speaker 7: up to court and they go, oh, I've got no 562 00:33:49,721 --> 00:33:52,881 Speaker 7: documents here to refer to, so I needing the German. 563 00:33:53,641 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 7: They'll sabotage their own prosecutions by yelling out expletives, calling 564 00:33:59,481 --> 00:34:04,361 Speaker 7: witnesses by names, asking irrelevant questions, going on monologues, all 565 00:34:04,361 --> 00:34:07,641 Speaker 7: that sort of thing. These magistrates and judges need to 566 00:34:07,681 --> 00:34:11,081 Speaker 7: be aware that these are the tactics they use and 567 00:34:11,121 --> 00:34:13,641 Speaker 7: they need to stop it from happening in their court. 568 00:34:14,721 --> 00:34:18,001 Speaker 7: The opp the legal system they also let us down. 569 00:34:18,681 --> 00:34:22,921 Speaker 7: They need to prosecute these people, regardless of cost. They 570 00:34:23,121 --> 00:34:28,441 Speaker 7: send frivolous minor charges. They always a tactic of theirs 571 00:34:28,521 --> 00:34:31,481 Speaker 7: is always to appeal and if they can have the 572 00:34:31,561 --> 00:34:36,401 Speaker 7: matter heard before judging jury, regardless of it being easier 573 00:34:36,401 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 7: to be heard in the lower courts, in the magistrates' court, 574 00:34:39,521 --> 00:34:42,801 Speaker 7: they will always opt to go for trial before judging 575 00:34:42,921 --> 00:34:47,841 Speaker 7: jury because they know on minor charges the OPP aren't 576 00:34:47,881 --> 00:34:52,801 Speaker 7: interested in prosecuting them and they will withdraw charges, and 577 00:34:52,841 --> 00:34:56,481 Speaker 7: that's what they're hoping for. The indiventional orders taken out 578 00:34:56,481 --> 00:34:59,321 Speaker 7: by sovereign citizens should be checked. If we had a 579 00:34:59,321 --> 00:35:03,521 Speaker 7: register of sovereign citizens and when they take our intervention 580 00:35:03,641 --> 00:35:06,681 Speaker 7: orders theyre identified as such, then they should not be 581 00:35:06,761 --> 00:35:11,881 Speaker 7: actioned until the information that they provide is verified. That 582 00:35:11,921 --> 00:35:17,561 Speaker 7: would stop these ridiculous, frivolous and false intervention orders being 583 00:35:17,601 --> 00:35:22,641 Speaker 7: taken out and any complaints being made to investigative police 584 00:35:22,681 --> 00:35:26,441 Speaker 7: oversight bodies such as PSC and IBAC. They should be 585 00:35:26,481 --> 00:35:31,841 Speaker 7: properly triaged. So again, the information that they're providing to 586 00:35:31,921 --> 00:35:35,921 Speaker 7: these bodies are properly looked at and properly determined as 587 00:35:35,961 --> 00:35:39,481 Speaker 7: to whether there's any legitimacy to them or not. So 588 00:35:39,521 --> 00:35:41,321 Speaker 7: there are a number of things that can be done. 589 00:35:41,601 --> 00:35:43,801 Speaker 1: They are the OPP is probable in this as well. 590 00:35:44,281 --> 00:35:47,321 Speaker 7: That's exactly right. The OPP are very culpable with this 591 00:35:47,481 --> 00:35:51,481 Speaker 7: because in the end, Knucklehead one and two were charged 592 00:35:51,561 --> 00:35:54,881 Speaker 7: with stalking me and knucklehead at number one was also 593 00:35:55,041 --> 00:35:58,681 Speaker 7: charged talking to other police officers who copped a lot 594 00:35:58,721 --> 00:36:01,761 Speaker 7: of abuse as much as what I got. So Knucklehead 595 00:36:01,841 --> 00:36:05,921 Speaker 7: number one his trial came up first, so you had 596 00:36:06,121 --> 00:36:10,361 Speaker 7: three victims, myself and two other police officers. He again 597 00:36:10,921 --> 00:36:13,801 Speaker 7: defended himself. If this went to trial before judge and 598 00:36:13,881 --> 00:36:17,561 Speaker 7: jury could have been heard in the magistrates court, but 599 00:36:17,601 --> 00:36:19,601 Speaker 7: that's what he wanted to He wanted to get it 600 00:36:19,681 --> 00:36:23,801 Speaker 7: into the higher courts. We went through a trial at 601 00:36:23,961 --> 00:36:28,401 Speaker 7: lasted pretty close to a couple of weeks because every 602 00:36:28,441 --> 00:36:32,041 Speaker 7: time the judge made a ruling he would appeal the 603 00:36:32,161 --> 00:36:35,961 Speaker 7: judge's ruling to the appeals court. So we had to 604 00:36:36,001 --> 00:36:38,681 Speaker 7: wait a few days while I went there on appeal 605 00:36:38,721 --> 00:36:41,081 Speaker 7: and it would come back and of course they'd find 606 00:36:41,121 --> 00:36:44,881 Speaker 7: the judge's decision was proper, but every time he made 607 00:36:45,201 --> 00:36:47,961 Speaker 7: a decision he would stop and go, I'm going to 608 00:36:47,961 --> 00:36:51,481 Speaker 7: appeal that. In the end, the judge said, you can 609 00:36:51,521 --> 00:36:54,241 Speaker 7: appeal all my decisions after we're finished. But by this 610 00:36:54,281 --> 00:36:56,921 Speaker 7: stage we've been going for a couple of weeks. When 611 00:36:56,961 --> 00:37:00,481 Speaker 7: I gave my evidence to the court, of course he 612 00:37:00,641 --> 00:37:04,201 Speaker 7: was cross examining me in front of a jury. He 613 00:37:04,241 --> 00:37:07,401 Speaker 7: would refer to them as a liar, as a defective, 614 00:37:08,481 --> 00:37:11,761 Speaker 7: and the judge just didn't pick him up on any 615 00:37:11,801 --> 00:37:14,841 Speaker 7: of that. So all that's going to the jury. And 616 00:37:15,001 --> 00:37:18,641 Speaker 7: one stage I did answer a question that I answered 617 00:37:18,641 --> 00:37:22,001 Speaker 7: all these questions, but I did answer one question where 618 00:37:22,081 --> 00:37:24,881 Speaker 7: I said, oh, yes, and because of people like you, 619 00:37:25,641 --> 00:37:28,561 Speaker 7: such and such. Right, I can't exactly remember what the 620 00:37:28,561 --> 00:37:31,881 Speaker 7: answer was, but because I said the words people like you, 621 00:37:32,681 --> 00:37:36,121 Speaker 7: the judge decided I was casting expersions on him and 622 00:37:36,161 --> 00:37:38,801 Speaker 7: I was held to account and I was not allowed 623 00:37:38,801 --> 00:37:40,761 Speaker 7: to refer to him. I had to refer to him 624 00:37:40,761 --> 00:37:43,481 Speaker 7: as the accused or the defendant. 625 00:37:43,801 --> 00:37:43,921 Speaker 2: Right. 626 00:37:44,961 --> 00:37:48,121 Speaker 7: I wasn't allowed to suggest that he was a particular 627 00:37:48,201 --> 00:37:51,641 Speaker 7: type of person, yet he was free to refer to 628 00:37:51,681 --> 00:37:56,161 Speaker 7: me as a liar and a defective. So the double standards. 629 00:37:57,321 --> 00:38:00,281 Speaker 7: So with that trial, the three of us, the three victims, 630 00:38:00,281 --> 00:38:04,121 Speaker 7: we gave our evidence and what have you. And before 631 00:38:04,161 --> 00:38:08,201 Speaker 7: that trial finished, the prosecuting barrister came over to me 632 00:38:08,241 --> 00:38:12,841 Speaker 7: and said that the prosecution of the trial for Knucklehead 633 00:38:12,921 --> 00:38:17,641 Speaker 7: number two that was going to be withdrawn by the 634 00:38:17,641 --> 00:38:21,841 Speaker 7: opp I said why. They said, well, regardless of the 635 00:38:21,841 --> 00:38:24,481 Speaker 7: outcome of this trial, they're not going to go ahead 636 00:38:24,521 --> 00:38:26,881 Speaker 7: with it because it's such a minor matter and it's 637 00:38:26,921 --> 00:38:30,001 Speaker 7: not in the public interest. So he gets off. He 638 00:38:30,081 --> 00:38:34,321 Speaker 7: gets off with stalking me, sending out harassing emails and 639 00:38:34,601 --> 00:38:39,481 Speaker 7: disgusting emails at that, So then that one's gone. In 640 00:38:39,521 --> 00:38:43,521 Speaker 7: the trial of Knucklehead number one, you wouldn't believe it, 641 00:38:43,561 --> 00:38:46,721 Speaker 7: but we had a hung jury, so they couldn't decide 642 00:38:47,201 --> 00:38:50,721 Speaker 7: whether this blake was stalking us or not. So the 643 00:38:50,841 --> 00:38:55,881 Speaker 7: jury was hunt so there was no verdict. The prosecuting barrister, 644 00:38:56,081 --> 00:38:59,281 Speaker 7: who is a freelance person, he's not with the APP. 645 00:38:59,921 --> 00:39:04,001 Speaker 7: He recommended the matter be retried. The judge who heard 646 00:39:04,041 --> 00:39:07,921 Speaker 7: the matter he also recommended, and that it be retried. 647 00:39:08,601 --> 00:39:13,601 Speaker 7: The opp said it's not in the public interest. So 648 00:39:13,961 --> 00:39:18,041 Speaker 7: we went through four years of being stalked and all 649 00:39:18,081 --> 00:39:20,321 Speaker 7: the rest of it, and getting these bikes to trial 650 00:39:20,961 --> 00:39:23,281 Speaker 7: for the opp to pull the rug out from under 651 00:39:23,321 --> 00:39:27,281 Speaker 7: our feet. And it is just an absolute disgrace. 652 00:39:27,641 --> 00:39:28,401 Speaker 1: It really is. 653 00:39:28,441 --> 00:39:30,601 Speaker 8: And this has sort of followed you all these years 654 00:39:30,601 --> 00:39:34,121 Speaker 8: into your retirement and all you've done is just work 655 00:39:34,161 --> 00:39:36,481 Speaker 8: in the public interest. It seems like they say it's 656 00:39:36,561 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 8: not worth prosecuting these matters because there are trivial nature 657 00:39:40,001 --> 00:39:41,681 Speaker 8: not in the public interest. But it seems like the 658 00:39:42,161 --> 00:39:45,601 Speaker 8: upholding the integrity and dignity of the police officers involved 659 00:39:45,921 --> 00:39:47,481 Speaker 8: is also not in the public interest. 660 00:39:47,801 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 1: So you left iron dry. 661 00:39:49,561 --> 00:39:52,161 Speaker 7: Yeah, well, we're not a priority for the OPP. We're 662 00:39:52,201 --> 00:39:55,841 Speaker 7: just people there to be pushed and shoved around. But 663 00:39:55,961 --> 00:40:00,041 Speaker 7: you're right. It did follow me into retirement, and because 664 00:40:00,721 --> 00:40:06,000 Speaker 7: of the opp's decision not to retry all head number one, 665 00:40:06,521 --> 00:40:09,801 Speaker 7: what he then did was he took out a civil 666 00:40:09,881 --> 00:40:14,321 Speaker 7: lawsuit against me. So he wanted to sue me in 667 00:40:14,401 --> 00:40:17,721 Speaker 7: that I had falsely imprisoned him back in twenty sixteen, 668 00:40:18,081 --> 00:40:22,001 Speaker 7: now we're now talking twenty twenty two, and he named 669 00:40:22,001 --> 00:40:26,081 Speaker 7: me and some other police officers as defendants, which was 670 00:40:26,121 --> 00:40:29,401 Speaker 7: a mistake because you can't sue individual police officers. So 671 00:40:29,441 --> 00:40:33,001 Speaker 7: he then had to redo it, redo his writ and 672 00:40:33,321 --> 00:40:36,881 Speaker 7: he nominated Victoria Place, but then of course names us 673 00:40:36,921 --> 00:40:41,961 Speaker 7: within the writ. So the VGSO then took over that 674 00:40:42,601 --> 00:40:46,681 Speaker 7: on our behalf and had to defend us in the 675 00:40:46,721 --> 00:40:51,681 Speaker 7: county court with civil writ. They then wanted me, Now 676 00:40:51,721 --> 00:40:57,481 Speaker 7: remember I've been retired for probably six twelve months. They 677 00:40:57,521 --> 00:41:01,161 Speaker 7: then wanted me to prepare an affidavit for them and 678 00:41:01,281 --> 00:41:04,721 Speaker 7: provide them with all my documentation in relation to these people. 679 00:41:05,481 --> 00:41:08,681 Speaker 7: And I said, well, why don't you go and visit 680 00:41:08,721 --> 00:41:13,121 Speaker 7: the people at the opp They've got everything, They had everything, 681 00:41:13,881 --> 00:41:16,681 Speaker 7: and I said, I'm retired. I don't have those documents anymore. 682 00:41:17,161 --> 00:41:19,161 Speaker 7: Yet they were still trying to get me to do that. 683 00:41:20,241 --> 00:41:23,881 Speaker 7: It took them a year, and that it was finally 684 00:41:24,441 --> 00:41:29,721 Speaker 7: in July twenty twenty three, was finally knocked on the 685 00:41:29,801 --> 00:41:32,721 Speaker 7: head by the Candy Court. But it took them a year. 686 00:41:33,481 --> 00:41:36,961 Speaker 7: So this is the problem. You know, these people get 687 00:41:37,001 --> 00:41:39,401 Speaker 7: away with the minor things. If they keep getting away 688 00:41:39,401 --> 00:41:42,361 Speaker 7: with the little things, they're going to take another step forward. 689 00:41:42,721 --> 00:41:45,201 Speaker 7: It's a bit like the old Give them an inch 690 00:41:45,241 --> 00:41:47,721 Speaker 7: and they'll take a mile. Every time you put a 691 00:41:47,761 --> 00:41:49,681 Speaker 7: line in the sand and they cross it and you 692 00:41:49,681 --> 00:41:52,841 Speaker 7: don't hold them to account, they will just continue to 693 00:41:52,961 --> 00:41:54,921 Speaker 7: attack because that's what they do. 694 00:41:55,801 --> 00:41:58,281 Speaker 8: Unbelievable, Sorry, Peter, and I think it's going to raise 695 00:41:58,561 --> 00:42:01,561 Speaker 8: a lot of questions. And I think, as this recent 696 00:42:01,681 --> 00:42:04,361 Speaker 8: matter has as well, that we have these individuals in 697 00:42:04,401 --> 00:42:07,961 Speaker 8: our society who want all the benefits of our civilized, 698 00:42:08,281 --> 00:42:14,041 Speaker 8: fair legal system without having any accountability themselves. And police 699 00:42:14,041 --> 00:42:16,081 Speaker 8: officers such as yourself, are having a. 700 00:42:16,001 --> 00:42:20,121 Speaker 5: A front court at massive public cost for these vexatious, 701 00:42:20,721 --> 00:42:21,841 Speaker 5: silly actions. 702 00:42:22,241 --> 00:42:25,921 Speaker 1: What all you've been doing is your lawful duty, and 703 00:42:25,961 --> 00:42:26,801 Speaker 1: I thank you for that. 704 00:42:27,281 --> 00:42:29,481 Speaker 10: I'm sorry that you have to go through this, and 705 00:42:29,561 --> 00:42:31,761 Speaker 10: I think it's a very good point about a review 706 00:42:31,881 --> 00:42:35,961 Speaker 10: has to happen now because unfortunately the publicity these sovereign 707 00:42:36,041 --> 00:42:41,241 Speaker 10: citizens have gotten during this latest outrage may embolden. 708 00:42:40,681 --> 00:42:43,561 Speaker 1: Others to thumb their those at the system. 709 00:42:44,121 --> 00:42:47,121 Speaker 8: And I think it's quite hilarious that on the one 710 00:42:47,121 --> 00:42:49,121 Speaker 8: hand they don't believe in the system, but I don't 711 00:42:49,121 --> 00:42:51,161 Speaker 8: believe in government or the courts or the police. 712 00:42:51,441 --> 00:42:54,321 Speaker 1: But they believe in social welfare. I believe in being 713 00:42:54,401 --> 00:42:58,001 Speaker 1: on the dole or you know, disability to support pensions. 714 00:42:58,721 --> 00:43:00,241 Speaker 1: You can't have it always, can you? 715 00:43:01,041 --> 00:43:02,841 Speaker 7: No, you can't have it both ways, but that's what 716 00:43:02,921 --> 00:43:07,761 Speaker 7: they want. A little anecdote for you. Prior to knucklehead 717 00:43:07,841 --> 00:43:10,921 Speaker 7: number one may becoming involved with knucklehead number one, he 718 00:43:11,041 --> 00:43:13,561 Speaker 7: had been to court for other matters in the past, 719 00:43:14,601 --> 00:43:19,041 Speaker 7: and for one of his misdemeanors he was given a 720 00:43:19,121 --> 00:43:22,721 Speaker 7: penalty of doing I think it was one hundred hours 721 00:43:22,801 --> 00:43:28,721 Speaker 7: community work. I did speak to the Justice Department in 722 00:43:28,761 --> 00:43:32,081 Speaker 7: relation to what he did. And what he did was 723 00:43:32,961 --> 00:43:38,281 Speaker 7: he would turn up and abuse everybody. So rather than 724 00:43:38,401 --> 00:43:40,881 Speaker 7: going out on his work detail or doing what he 725 00:43:40,961 --> 00:43:44,201 Speaker 7: was told to do, he would refuse to do it 726 00:43:44,441 --> 00:43:48,521 Speaker 7: and he would just abuse people to the point where 727 00:43:49,121 --> 00:43:52,601 Speaker 7: people in the Justice Department didn't turn up to work 728 00:43:53,001 --> 00:43:57,041 Speaker 7: because they were being abused. So what they did is 729 00:43:57,081 --> 00:44:00,161 Speaker 7: they referred the matter back to the court and said, 730 00:44:00,721 --> 00:44:03,041 Speaker 7: this is not an appropriate penalty for him because he 731 00:44:03,161 --> 00:44:07,201 Speaker 7: just refuses to comply with our direction. So rather than 732 00:44:07,241 --> 00:44:10,561 Speaker 7: hold him to account, they changed I think they changed 733 00:44:10,721 --> 00:44:14,401 Speaker 7: his penalty to be of good behavior for a year 734 00:44:14,481 --> 00:44:16,841 Speaker 7: or of two years or something like that, which of 735 00:44:16,961 --> 00:44:19,041 Speaker 7: course he gets off scott free. 736 00:44:20,281 --> 00:44:22,440 Speaker 1: Really, so this is unbelievable. 737 00:44:23,121 --> 00:44:26,601 Speaker 4: It's a sobering story, and I think it really provides 738 00:44:26,601 --> 00:44:29,281 Speaker 4: an impetus for the system to review this and to 739 00:44:29,321 --> 00:44:33,521 Speaker 4: make sure these individuals can no longer harass and intimidate 740 00:44:33,561 --> 00:44:34,681 Speaker 4: and manipulate the legal system. 741 00:44:34,681 --> 00:44:37,201 Speaker 1: Thanks for your time today, mate, Thank you, and. 742 00:44:37,481 --> 00:44:42,321 Speaker 7: Thanks for the opportunity to tell you my story. 743 00:44:44,201 --> 00:44:46,081 Speaker 1: That's retired Detective Peter Coss. 744 00:44:46,521 --> 00:44:49,601 Speaker 6: On these so called sovereign citizens, they want it every way, 745 00:44:50,121 --> 00:44:52,921 Speaker 6: they want to have legal protections while not giving any 746 00:44:53,001 --> 00:44:55,841 Speaker 6: respect to the system that looks after them. They're on 747 00:44:55,921 --> 00:45:00,001 Speaker 6: social welfare, they reserve the right to tie the courts up. 748 00:45:00,081 --> 00:45:03,321 Speaker 6: And the Cost of the story we've just heard to 749 00:45:03,361 --> 00:45:06,521 Speaker 6: the public Purse is absolutely unbelieved and I certainly think 750 00:45:06,561 --> 00:45:09,321 Speaker 6: this is a case for a big review and as 751 00:45:09,361 --> 00:45:11,961 Speaker 6: Peter cost has suggested, some sort of register so we 752 00:45:12,041 --> 00:45:15,161 Speaker 6: know who these people are, these pseudo lawyers who want 753 00:45:15,201 --> 00:45:18,641 Speaker 6: to use the system to their own benefit while not 754 00:45:18,681 --> 00:45:19,440 Speaker 6: respecting it. 755 00:45:20,081 --> 00:45:22,281 Speaker 1: Have you had dealings with these people? I'd love to know. 756 00:45:22,761 --> 00:45:24,881 Speaker 11: I think there should be a lot more discussion about this, 757 00:45:25,641 --> 00:45:28,161 Speaker 11: So give me an email if you like on Adam Shann. 758 00:45:27,921 --> 00:45:29,481 Speaker 1: Writer at gmail dot com. 759 00:45:29,561 --> 00:45:32,841 Speaker 11: You can also always contact us with stories at by 760 00:45:32,881 --> 00:45:36,561 Speaker 11: email or if it's more serious, call crime Stoppers, one 761 00:45:36,601 --> 00:45:38,401 Speaker 11: of another Triple three Triple zero. 762 00:45:39,441 --> 00:45:41,561 Speaker 1: This has been having shampoo real crime. Thanks for listening.