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Speaker 1: Yes.

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Speaker 2: Now this is going to be very confusing because we

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Speaker 2: are all based in Melbourne.

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Speaker 3: Well, you two in Melbourne.

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Speaker 2: I'm down in the Mornington Peninsula. But anybody listens to

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Speaker 2: this is going they're not natives. So just give us

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Speaker 2: a bit of both of your background, kind of where

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Speaker 2: you're from and your cold kind of educational professional background.

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Speaker 3: We'll go ladies first. Why not?

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Speaker 1: Thanks? So I am originally from Miami, Florida. I have

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Speaker 1: been in Australia for fifteen years. I make the joke

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Speaker 1: that I identify as Australian and my pronouns are yeah,

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Speaker 1: nah and yeah. The reason the reason I came to

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Speaker 1: Australia was because I won an all expenses paid trip

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Speaker 1: to Tasmania in a video competition. So I drove in

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Speaker 1: a bright orange Camebra van around Tasmania for six weeks

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Speaker 1: filming and capturing all of our our kind of excursions

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Speaker 1: and things like that. This was back before YouTube was

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Speaker 1: sort of a thing. It was in twenty ten, two

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Speaker 1: thousand and nine. So yeah, I came to Tazzy. I

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Speaker 1: did a working holiday visa for a year in Melbourne

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Speaker 1: and then figured out a sneaky way to get myself

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Speaker 1: here for good.

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Speaker 3: So did that involve marrying a local.

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Speaker 1: No, I am here on my own accord.

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Speaker 3: Yes, unlike me exactly.

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Speaker 1: Most people there their ticket is someone else me. I

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Speaker 1: snuck in there and figured out how to get sponsored

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Speaker 1: through my work. So yeah, I have a PR and

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Speaker 1: marketing background originally, but I've always been very obsessed with

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Speaker 1: human behavior and just the way the mind kind of works,

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Speaker 1: and our own levels of consciousness and self awareness. And

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Speaker 1: so when I did come to Australia at the ripe

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Speaker 1: page of twenty five, I was thinking to myself, what

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Speaker 1: am I doing here? Who am I? And I ended

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Speaker 1: up having a coach who I did some great work with,

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Speaker 1: just kind of landing and who I wanted to be

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Speaker 1: in this new space. And he one day said to me,

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Speaker 1: you should be a coach. You really, you really get

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Speaker 1: this stuff. And I said, okay, sure. I was kind

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Speaker 1: of done with I was kind of done with PR

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Speaker 1: and marketing, so I went and got my coaching certification.

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Speaker 1: I set up a successful coaching business. I worked outside

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Speaker 1: of different wellness centers, and then I just was getting

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Speaker 1: this itch of the one on one thing for me.

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Speaker 1: I'm super extroverted and I always wanted to be an

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Speaker 1: actress when I was a kid. So I was like,

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Speaker 1: this is this work is rewarding, but I want to

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Speaker 1: like reach more people. I want to kind of have

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Speaker 1: a little bit of a stage. So I started crafting

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Speaker 1: workshops that were about mental health and well being. But

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Speaker 1: I would bring a character in or I would dress

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Speaker 1: up as like, you know, how to tame I would

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Speaker 1: do how to Tame your inner critic, and I would

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Speaker 1: dress up as a lion tamer just to create a

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Speaker 1: little bit more kind of levity and lightness around heavier topics.

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Speaker 1: And then yeah, I started to just kind of delve

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Speaker 1: more into more in this idea of play, and I

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Speaker 1: tried to run Australia's first ever adult summer camp, which

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Speaker 1: was unfortunately the first of my business and quite a flop.

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Speaker 1: I had, I think three people three people book. But

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Speaker 1: then I really was trying to get to my core.

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Speaker 1: I was doing my Simon sink Why and I was like,

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Speaker 1: all right, I really want to connect adults to their playfulness.

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Speaker 1: And I had a friend say, oh, why don't you

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Speaker 1: look at doing it from a personal sorry from a

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Speaker 1: professional perspective then personal, So I kind of pivoted from

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Speaker 1: play for personal into play for professional did a real

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Speaker 1: big deep dive around what was happening in Silicon Valley

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Speaker 1: and things like that, and then started iterating on that,

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Speaker 1: and that was This year is my tenth year in

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Speaker 1: really diving into this world of play at work and

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Speaker 1: all of the benefits that it creates around innovation, creativity,

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Speaker 1: psychological safety. I mean, the list goes on and on

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Speaker 1: from mental health and well being. For me, play is

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Speaker 1: such this incredible conduit with which we can enter into

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Speaker 1: our full potential as human beings. And I think, you know,

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Speaker 1: we can talk more about that in a bit. I

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Speaker 1: want to give Tana a chance to give his origin story,

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I think you know, play is a real

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Speaker 1: opportunity to unlock so much of our own internal b allions,

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Speaker 1: which is very much buried under achievement, success, mortgages, responsibility, conformity, risk, aversion.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I think there's a lot to be said

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Speaker 1: about how do we sort of excavate that part of

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Speaker 1: ourselves to arrive in this kind of crazy time of

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Speaker 1: technological change and disruption.

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Speaker 2: That is very cool, And you know what, I've got

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Speaker 2: a big takeaway from this already. I think I'm going

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Speaker 2: to use your iMX Military. I'm a corporate speaker X military.

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Speaker 2: I love fancy dress. I'm going to start dressing up

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Speaker 2: on stage. I'm going to try and find a way

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Speaker 2: to weave in being a smurf, for sure. I've been

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Speaker 2: a smurf so many times. You would not believe it,

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Speaker 2: could you not?

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Speaker 3: But anyway, that's a different.

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Speaker 2: Podcast where I probably need to lie down on the

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Speaker 2: couch tane over to you. Let's talk about you. You

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Speaker 2: bet you better be good after that one.

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Speaker 4: So I'm originally from rural New Mexico, on the border

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Speaker 4: between the US and Mexico. I like cats and dogs equally,

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Speaker 4: long walks on the beach, and I am an all

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Speaker 4: round nerd. So I really had a love affair with

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Speaker 4: biology and the way the world works for as long

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Speaker 4: as I can remember. But I'm also an intense adrenaline drunkie.

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Speaker 4: So my way to get in touch with biology was

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Speaker 4: to get out into nature through mountain biking. And my

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Speaker 4: first real job was professional mountain biker, cross country mountain biker.

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Speaker 3: In the US. Wow.

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Speaker 4: And that was going smoothly until I broke my back.

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Speaker 4: Didn't yeah until it finally got the better of my body.

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Speaker 3: But I focused back.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so, but when one door closes, many more open.

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Speaker 4: So I refocused on academics and finished my undergrad in

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Speaker 4: bio kem and then decided to have an opportunity to

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Speaker 4: go sailing with my Kiwi father and Tasmanian mother, and

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Speaker 4: so we sailed across the South Pacific to New Zealand.

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Speaker 4: And on that journey I actually came across a whale

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Speaker 4: dissection a Cuvier beaked weal, which is the deepest diving

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Speaker 4: mammal and the really interesting and I can't smell, so

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Speaker 4: I'm in anosmiac so good. I'm a good partner to have.

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Speaker 4: You can fight around me and not shower and I

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Speaker 4: am unaware. But on this whale dissection, I really love

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Speaker 4: marine biology and I wanted to be a marine biologist.

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Speaker 4: And this woman from Harvard Medical School, Darling Kenton, who

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Speaker 4: was leading the dissection which I got to help with,

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Speaker 4: told me this marine biology is a saturated field, but

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Speaker 4: if you can understand the code of life itself DNA,

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Speaker 4: you can apply it to any field within biology. So

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Speaker 4: that's out with me for a while. And landed in

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Speaker 4: New Zealand and first started house painting because I was

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Speaker 4: broke as and then got a job doing how hospitalities

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Speaker 4: founded up, managing wineries and making wine on Wayhiki and

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Speaker 4: New Zealand. And then my brain was atrophying, and because

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Speaker 4: I'm a nerd, I went back to academia and I

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Speaker 4: went to the University of Melbourne for bioinformatics, basically using

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Speaker 4: AI machine learning to read DNA and figure out what

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Speaker 4: genetic changes are causing cancer and working with clinicians to

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Speaker 4: improve patient outcomes. So my PhD research was at Peter

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Speaker 4: McCollum Cancer Center and during this time I love science,

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Speaker 4: I love technology, but I think it lacks good communication.

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Speaker 4: So formed a company called future Crunch, which is science

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Speaker 4: communication explores the frontiers of science and technology and really

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Speaker 4: seeks out stories of human progress, stories of incredible people

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Speaker 4: around the world doing great stuff to make the world

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Speaker 4: a better place, because I think one people really suffer

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Speaker 4: from is negative information, a torrent of negative news, and

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Speaker 4: that doesn't lead to pathways forward and a belief that

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Speaker 4: lotions are available. So that for the last thirteen years

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Speaker 4: have been working with organizations and individuals to help foster

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Speaker 4: intelligent optimism with the Reverend Humor and fancy colorful jackets

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Speaker 4: on stage, so that's pretty much me and ended up

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Speaker 4: in Melbourne, Love Australia and ran across Darra and a

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Speaker 4: plain nerd and a science tech nerd collided and we

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Speaker 4: now work together in a more I would say human

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Speaker 4: holistic approach. So we're both nerds from different angles.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, Wow, fascinating backgrounds. And are you still in

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Speaker 2: academia tany or are you just in the company now

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Speaker 2: doing stuff with organizations.

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Speaker 4: Future corunch has become a full time thing. But I

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Speaker 4: call myself a recovering academic. I like the Ivory Towers,

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Speaker 4: but comes with its problems, and so I like getting

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Speaker 4: research out and science and tech innovations to the general public.

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Speaker 4: We have all, I believe we have most of the

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Speaker 4: tools in our tool build to get out of the

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Speaker 4: mess we've created. It's just about inspiring and educating people

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Speaker 4: to get out.

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Speaker 3: There and do it. Yeah. Cool, quite similar.

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Speaker 2: I call myself a procademic, so I like to read

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Speaker 2: all the geeky academic research and go how does this

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Speaker 2: apply and then talk to talk to people about how

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Speaker 2: they can use it to improve their lives. So, now,

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Speaker 2: in that that intro from both of you, obviously we're

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Speaker 2: we're pointing towards and your book as well, is that

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Speaker 2: today we're.

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Speaker 3: Really not doing very well.

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Speaker 2: You know, we are, as I often say, we are

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Speaker 2: the most overweight, most depressed, most medicated, and most addictive

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Speaker 2: cohort of adults that there's ever been. Yet life has

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Speaker 2: never being so good, right, we got it easier than

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Speaker 2: all of our ancestors. Yet we are struggling physically and mentally,

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Speaker 2: and often that manifests in burnout, and and your your

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Speaker 2: book is is kind of what we can do about this.

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Speaker 2: But but let's just let's just talk about burnout. I mean,

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Speaker 2: what what what are you guys seeing out there? I mean,

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Speaker 2: you're you're at the cold face, you're interrupted and interacting

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Speaker 2: with with companies.

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Speaker 3: I mean I can come at it from an academic.

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Speaker 2: Perspective, but what do you what are you actually seeing

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Speaker 2: in the organizations that you're working with.

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Speaker 1: I think what we kind of general theme is just

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Speaker 1: this blanket of exhaustion, this blanket of overwhelm, this intensity

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Speaker 1: around uncertainty around job security. Obviously, like the conversation around AI,

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Speaker 1: you know, AI and jobs is I think creating so

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Speaker 1: much fear within people. I think for both of us,

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Speaker 1: we've been entrepreneurs for over a decade, and it was

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Speaker 1: always that uncertainty around when's the next paycheck going to come?

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Speaker 1: But now even with that, with a full time job

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Speaker 1: with a company, you have no job security. The amount

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Speaker 1: of redundancies and transformations and restructuring that are happening is

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Speaker 1: just causing people so much distress. And so I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, one thing that isn't necessarily explicit in the book,

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Speaker 1: but what is basically the general gist of what we're

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Speaker 1: trying to talk about is really looking at conditions. Because

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Speaker 1: I think when we explore burnout from a systemic perspective,

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Speaker 1: it feels very big. And so when we talk about

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Speaker 1: how burnout costs businesses trillions of dollars, how does a

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Speaker 1: leader actually really see themselves in those numbers, and how

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Speaker 1: do we kind of bring it down to a more

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Speaker 1: granular level for what they can relate to and see

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Speaker 1: in their people and what's happening. And so when you

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Speaker 1: think about the conditions, it's actually, you know, a smaller

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Speaker 1: subset of what the systemic issue is around work. I mean,

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Speaker 1: when you think about the industrial revolution and even the

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Speaker 1: in work ethic around play being sorry by work being

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Speaker 1: salvation and things like that, that's like five hundred years

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Speaker 1: of unprogramming that we need to do around how we

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Speaker 1: identify it with work and success and achievement. Right, But

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Speaker 1: that's so big, and when we try and approach something

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Speaker 1: that's so big, we become paralyzed and we do nothing.

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Speaker 1: So for us, especially with the way that we've written

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Speaker 1: the book, is really about creating sort of micropractices and

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Speaker 1: micro moments around changing the conditions both in the environments

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Speaker 1: that we have control over in our own lives and

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Speaker 1: also giving leaders the opportunity to think about changing the

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Speaker 1: conditions within their realm of and sphere of influence.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 1: And so when we think about burnout, like burnout is

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Speaker 1: kind of the holy grail of exhaustion, right, it's like

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Speaker 1: when you've actually reached your end where you are having

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Speaker 1: a mental and physical or you know, mental or physical breakdown.

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Speaker 1: Basically you might become hospitalized, you know, whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: But what we discovered in researching what kind of is

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Speaker 1: like the presupposition of burnout is something called achievement syndrome,

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Speaker 1: which comes from an amazing researcher based in the States

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Speaker 1: called Michael Simmons, which is really the slow and steady

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Speaker 1: kind of slide towards burnout. And it really happens from

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Speaker 1: the moment when we're children and we start to achieve,

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Speaker 1: So we get ribbons and trophies and report cards and

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Speaker 1: stars and stickers, and you know, we're really awarded for Yeah,

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Speaker 1: exactly correct, and so that starts to feel good and

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Speaker 1: we really like that, and then that takes us into

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Speaker 1: our kind of identity fusion where we're starting to connect

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Speaker 1: to success as like who we are, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: like I am my achievements, and so we start to

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Speaker 1: lose our sense of self and really the kind of

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Speaker 1: passion that started us off when we were younger and

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Speaker 1: really hungry to learn and grow starts to diminish because

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Speaker 1: we become so engulfed in this concept of promotion and

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Speaker 1: recognition and validation and all those sorts of things. Then

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Speaker 1: we kind of get into this optimization.

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Speaker 2: Shara, Sorry, I need to just stop because I've just

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Speaker 2: had a pop up which I've never seen before, okay,

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Speaker 2: which is saying Dara is not being recorded, Okay, stop

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Speaker 2: being recorded because of low browser story.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so my my computer is like to the max loaded,

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Speaker 1: and so can I Yeah, you know, I have to

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Speaker 1: I have eight I have ADHD and my ability to

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Speaker 1: keep my computer in check is non existent.

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Speaker 2: So let me so it's saying, ask them to free

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Speaker 2: up space and then rejoin.

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Speaker 1: Yes, okay, I'm going to offer. I'm going to do

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Speaker 1: my best to delete a few things here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Cool, And why do you do that?

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Speaker 2: We're just going to keep rolling actually because this is funny,

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Speaker 2: because because as you might said, her computer is suffering

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Speaker 2: from Bernard overwhelmed syndrome.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: So I don't know how how much people caught of

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Speaker 2: Dara before her computer shot the bed, but so there's

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Speaker 2: this started to mention there, Danny, and maybe you pick

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Speaker 2: up on this Tanney side that essentially what she's alluding

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Speaker 2: to is this modern world is becoming more and more vooka.

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Speaker 2: This is a term from the military from my kind

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Speaker 2: of background, a word of volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity.

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Speaker 3: Right, And how all of that.

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Speaker 2: Uncertainty that's now being brought in by tech and actually

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Speaker 2: amplifies the stress that people feel of So I kind

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Speaker 2: of want to do a bit of a dive on this.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I've been an entrepreneur.

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Speaker 2: I understand what Dara was was was talking about with

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Speaker 2: you know, words, the next paycheck, all of that that uncertainty,

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Speaker 2: that stress of being a startup person. Normally people with

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Speaker 2: a normal job don't have that.

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Speaker 3: Now they have this uncertainty. But can you you.

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Speaker 2: Wave that in with achievement syndrome and just how those

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Speaker 2: words are actually colliding to push people kind of over

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Speaker 2: the edge and that constant information load that we are

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Speaker 2: getting and the inembility to switch off.

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Speaker 3: Really yes, So to.

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Speaker 4: Pick up where there was with achievement syndrome. She was

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Speaker 4: talking about early programming, where you know, love and your

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Speaker 4: identity becomes sort of conditional on performance, your gold stars,

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Speaker 4: your report cards, you're be impressive and you belong. And

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Speaker 4: as we grow and move into the workplace, we really

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Speaker 4: get this identity fusion where we become our output performance

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Speaker 4: in our person It becomes indistinguishable, which leads us into this,

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Speaker 4: especially with AI as a layer over everything in the

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Speaker 4: world in which we live, work and play, we sort

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Speaker 4: of have to enjoy. We get to this thing where

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Speaker 4: we start scheduling joy morning routines get hacked. We look

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Speaker 4: at a bunch of productivity poor and so every moment

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Speaker 4: is optimized.

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Speaker 3: We kind of.

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Speaker 4: Forget how to care without producing something and that's a

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Speaker 4: diminishing curve which leads to burnout. It's like the more

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Speaker 4: success you get, the less satisfaction relationships a road, your

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Speaker 4: sleep starts to suffer, winds sort of begin to feel

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Speaker 4: hollow and you don't take as much pride in them,

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Speaker 4: and then you lead to the break The calendar doesn't

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Speaker 4: didn't schedule the breakdown, of course, but we reach this

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Speaker 4: threshold and keep hustling unless we sort of get out

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Speaker 4: of this achievement syndrome. Because this achievement syndrome, it doesn't

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Speaker 4: just hijack our thinking. At hijacks are breathing. We have

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Speaker 4: shallow breathing. It activates our nervous system. We sort of

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Speaker 4: lose present moment awareness. Cortisol is flooding our system. Our

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Speaker 4: jaws locked shoulders live in permanent tension. Our head feels

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Speaker 4: like a balloon on a string. And yeah, and I

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Speaker 4: think with your information overload as well, going back to

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Speaker 4: what darre was talking about with conditions, conditions are really

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Speaker 4: the soil, and I think that's where a lot of

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Speaker 4: our apathy, fear, and burnout comes from and our disconnection.

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Speaker 4: So think of conditions like it's a relationship ecosystem with

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Speaker 4: our family, friends, and our organizational culture. It's our information

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Speaker 4: diet where we have a torrent of fake news. You

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Speaker 4: need to do more of course, with negativity, bias and

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Speaker 4: the media system that's predicated on fear and interrational perception

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Speaker 4: of risk to get our attention. Nervous systems really overload

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Speaker 4: and which reduces We have a triple C conditions, capacity

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Speaker 4: and capability. But this reduces our capacity, which is essentially

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Speaker 4: the bandwidth and what's growing from the conditions, the conditional

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Speaker 4: soil and our base, our foundations, and so capacity is

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Speaker 4: not necessarily a skill that your bandwidth. It's the underlying

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Speaker 4: resource that makes really everything else possible, and it's dynamic, contextual,

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Speaker 4: and it's deeply conditionally dependent. And then what we have

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Speaker 4: is called capability, and those are skills that we can develop, exercise,

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Speaker 4: and it's what happens when latent human capacity gets enough

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Speaker 4: of the right conditions, the enough practice to become to thrive,

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Speaker 4: become reliable and accessible under pressure. And once you form

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Speaker 4: strong capabilities, they feedback into your capacity. Your bandwidth and

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Speaker 4: capacity increases. For example, a person who develops curiosity is

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Speaker 4: a capacity. Our capability and their capacity increase. They start

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Speaker 4: treating novelty new things as novelty and exciting rather than threatening.

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Speaker 4: The energization increases and it increases their capacity. A person

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Speaker 4: who's developed hope, for example, strategic cope as a capability,

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Speaker 4: finds obstacles that used to be difficult to navigate and

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Speaker 4: depleteting are far easier to get around and deal with,

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Speaker 4: and developed capacity starts to change fundamentally the conditions around them. So,

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Speaker 4: for example, good leaders, once they build capacity and good capability,

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Speaker 4: they actually start creating better conditions around them for their ecosystem.

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Speaker 4: And that's one that's our three c's that really get

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Speaker 4: to the point of if any of these go offline,

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Speaker 4: you lead to burnout, achievement syndrome, and chronic stress because

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Speaker 4: in the modern day workforce, it's always high stakes. There's

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Speaker 4: always you know, fear of failure and risk aversion. And

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Speaker 4: I think that's a lot of what we're suffering despite

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Speaker 4: AI coming to steal your jobs and the information overload.

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Speaker 3: I think it's really interesting.

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Speaker 2: I like these three season I want to do a

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Speaker 2: little bit of a deeper dive just so that that

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Speaker 2: people understand the impact of conditions on their capacity and

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Speaker 2: maybe even their their capability because when we are are

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Speaker 2: overwhelmed or overloaded, right, So we're as you guys have

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Speaker 2: both said, we're busy, busy, busy at work, right, even

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Speaker 2: if AI is coming and we're using AI. The research

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Speaker 2: is saying that people are just having to do more, right,

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Speaker 2: and so it's actually not really a useful tone.

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Speaker 3: You're just expected to do more.

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Speaker 2: But I think that the pandemic has had a big

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Speaker 2: impact on this, and particularly in Melbourne.

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Speaker 3: Were you guys here, You were here during the lockdowns, right.

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Speaker 4: The lockdown capital of the world.

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Speaker 2: Yes, as we as we we well know, the three

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Speaker 2: of us. But that I think, and we're starting to

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Speaker 2: see the impact of that more on kids, but I

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Speaker 2: think on adults.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: You know, the recent data is that the nearly fifty

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Speaker 2: percent of Australians are are feeling constantly stressed and on

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Speaker 2: the verge of burnout.

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Speaker 3: And I think for people.

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Speaker 2: To understand, particularly going through that intense period of lockdown,

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Speaker 2: and that amplifies any of the burnout that they were feeling,

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Speaker 2: that drives it towards clinical burnout where they get a

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Speaker 2: large dmygdala, the frontal lobes are shrinking all of a sudden.

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Speaker 2: Now I have a negativity bias. I'm starting to scan

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Speaker 2: the environment non consciously for bad shit, right, which is

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Speaker 2: a brilliant adaptive response if you're living in a dangerous world.

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Speaker 2: But if we don't live in a danger world, it's maladaptive.

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Speaker 2: Then my frontal lobes aren't working so well. I can't

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Speaker 2: regulate my emotions as well. I can't also my self

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Speaker 2: controlled hearts of the bri in become diminished, so I'm

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Speaker 2: more likely to eat ship food drink alcohol to soothe

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Speaker 2: my stress.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: So these are the conditions starting to amplify, and they

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Speaker 2: and HI work conditions interact with personal conditions and choices

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Speaker 2: that then destroy your capacity and further eroad your capabilities.

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Speaker 3: Right, So it's almost like modern life.

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Speaker 2: And then throw in lockdown on that, and then throw

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Speaker 2: in AI over the top. It's like a perfect storm

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Speaker 2: for driving people into burnout. And the one last thing

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Speaker 2: I'd say before I throw it over to you is

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Speaker 2: that then we come home and we feel fucking hell

404
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Speaker 2: about a hard day. I need to relax, right, And

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Speaker 2: people often do that sitting with their feed up with

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Speaker 2: a bottle of wine, watching Netflix.

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Speaker 3: Right, having maladaptive behaviors.

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Speaker 2: And I always say relaxation is very different to recovery,

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Speaker 2: and then you're affecting your sleep, which then sends you

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Speaker 2: on a fucking horrible negative spiral.

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Speaker 3: So it's all joy, isn't it really? So what are

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Speaker 3: some of the things where do we start? I guess

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Speaker 3: maybe I'll throw it to you.

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Speaker 2: Is there a starting point with those three c's typically.

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Speaker 3: That you do or does that.

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Speaker 2: Vary from individual to individual, from organization the organization, as

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Speaker 2: it different from organizations to individuals as well well.

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Speaker 1: I think when we start with conditions, which is the

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Speaker 1: foundational piece with either organizations or personally. Right, So obviously

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Speaker 1: we have the most control over our own personal conditions,

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Speaker 1: and we don't necessarily have that much control over our

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Speaker 1: work conditions unless we decide to leave and make that

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Speaker 1: choice to go elsewhere, whether it's to go out on

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Speaker 1: our own or find a different company, so that we're

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Speaker 1: not necessarily rendered choiceless. But again not trying to be

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Speaker 1: a Pollyanna like we are. You know, interest rates are

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Speaker 1: up again, like you know, the cost of living is insane,

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Speaker 1: So it doesn't doesn't we don't necessarily have this opportunity

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Speaker 1: to go I don't like my job, I'm just going

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Speaker 1: to find a new one, Like the job market is

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Speaker 1: just so volatile at the moment. So I think what

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Speaker 1: we can start to understand and recognize in creating agency

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Speaker 1: for ourselves is what are the conditions we are creating

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Speaker 1: for our personal life relationally? What are our conditions? Are

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Speaker 1: we seeking out connection? Are we are we catching up

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Speaker 1: with friends? Are we seeing a therapist?

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Speaker 3: Like?

438
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 1: What are we actually doing in order to create better

439
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,879
Speaker 1: conditions for ourselves? From from a connection perspective, which you

440
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,800
Speaker 1: said recently, you've thrown in connection as one of your

441
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,399
Speaker 1: one of your sees, everyone has a good and so

442
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: you know, connection is as vital to our mental health

443
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,920
Speaker 1: and well being as food, water, shelter. You know, it's

444
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 1: like vitamin C, vitamin connect. There's plenty of data. There's

445
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 1: plenty of data out there around blue zones and things

446
00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 1: like that around you know, how do people centennials live

447
00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: past one hundred because of their community?

448
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:51,240
Speaker 3: Right?

449
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: So that's one thing that we can be looking at.

450
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: How much are we interacting with other people? Are we

451
00:25:57,800 --> 00:26:00,479
Speaker 1: you know, building community? Are we spending time with family

452
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 1: with quality?

453
00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 3: And now we're doing it face to face rather than online?

454
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: Correct? Correct? Because obviously social media creates this fallacy of connection.

455
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,840
Speaker 1: It is not actual physical energetic connection that you receive

456
00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 1: from a human being when you are mirroring each other

457
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,000
Speaker 1: and you know, in a physical space. So from a

458
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,639
Speaker 1: conditions perspective, there's relational. Then from a condition's perspective, you

459
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 1: have your information diet, which I will hand all that

460
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 1: over to Tana to explain, and then I might have

461
00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 1: him ping pong back to me because information diet is

462
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: his jam. But from again conditions perspective, what is the

463
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 1: information that we are ingesting over to utane?

464
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, the conditions of the information and knowledge that you

465
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 4: are receiving has an effect on your capabilities and your capacity.

466
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 4: So we call it information diet in the same way

467
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:56,040
Speaker 4: that we think of a culinary diet weed, healthy foods,

468
00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 4: leafy greens, fiber, you know, low saturated fat, et cetera,

469
00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 4: to make us healthier, and of course add some exercise

470
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 4: in there. We don't think of our information intake in

471
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 4: the same way. I think people forget that we should

472
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 4: be like taking in information that actually nourishes you. So

473
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,439
Speaker 4: choose your narrative nash that really is evidence based. It

474
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 4: gives you an active view on the world around you.

475
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 4: It's not toxic positivity. And I think it leads to

476
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 4: something that we call intelligent optimism, which is it's evident spaceed,

477
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 4: it's an accurate positive projection. It's a difference between cynical

478
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:43,200
Speaker 4: people like what's wrong with this people in this process,

479
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 4: and an accurate assessment where are the people actually doing

480
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 4: something different providing solutions. And I think if people really

481
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 4: did an audit of their information diet and properly curate it,

482
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 4: they would find out that there are lots of solutions.

483
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 4: There's power reduction, clean energy trajectories, better ways of doing

484
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 4: stuff in the twenty first century that we can all

485
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 4: get involved with as opposed to just netflixing and chilling

486
00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 4: or going down a YouTube rabbit hole watching cat videos.

487
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,439
Speaker 2: And also I think something that Donna may be mentioned

488
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:23,560
Speaker 2: at the start, like like the news negativity sales, right.

489
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 3: Yes, I mean we know that, and you know, do

490
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 3: you know what It actually pisses me off.

491
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,000
Speaker 2: The amount of time that I hear the word crisis

492
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 2: mentioned in this country.

493
00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,280
Speaker 3: This country is not in a fucking crisis. You know,

494
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 3: Sudan is in a crisis.

495
00:28:38,680 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: It's just but it's that negativity that just gets eyeballs

496
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 2: and then when people already have a hyper sensitive amygdala

497
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: because of all the shit that's been going on, it's

498
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 2: just then that negativity just draws us in, doesn't it.

499
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 3: And I think it just combines everything.

500
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, And from an evolutionary perspective, we're hardwired to react

501
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 4: to the dramatic and negative. I mean, we've got negativity bias.

502
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 4: And you know, like if it bleeds, it leads. Is

503
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 4: not some colloquialism coined by a cutthroat tabloid editor. It's

504
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 4: a potent evolutionary truth at the modern day medium machine.

505
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 4: And we're not We're also not equipped to deal with

506
00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 4: the worst stuff happening all over the planet all at

507
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 4: the same time.

508
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 3: It's overwhelming. Yeah. Yeah, we were never designed.

509
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,320
Speaker 2: Our brains weren't designed to know all of the wars

510
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 2: that are happening and all of the injustices that are

511
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: happening all around the friggin world.

512
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we have confirmation bias. So once we started

513
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 4: in ingesting all this negative news and all the worst

514
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:45,960
Speaker 4: stuff going on around the world, and we think the

515
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 4: world is a horrible place and declining, we go out

516
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 4: for more information that confirms those pre existing notions. So

517
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:57,520
Speaker 4: we become this echo chamber of our own design, and

518
00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 4: I think a lot of people fall into that.

519
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 3: And so what do we do? What do we do

520
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 3: about it?

521
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 2: I mean, you hinted at it when you mentioned some

522
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 2: of the positive things that are happening in the world.

523
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:12,400
Speaker 2: I mean, is this about being very careful about what

524
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 2: you expose yourself to any information and starting to look

525
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 2: for more positive things?

526
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's not positive just to you know, fireman

527
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 4: saves cap from trees or you know, you hear about

528
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 4: those kind of good feel stories. It's about actively thinking

529
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 4: about what information is going to serve you, and especially

530
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 4: when it comes to negative news. A lot of people

531
00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 4: and you know, look at well we're from Darren and

532
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 4: I from the US. If you look at US politics,

533
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 4: everyone's freaking out about it. But what are people actually

534
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 4: doing about it?

535
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 3: Nothing?

536
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,760
Speaker 4: So they get all the negative chemicals and they rewire

537
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 4: their brain to start looking for more negative stuff.

538
00:30:58,880 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 3: And I mean the the.

539
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:05,000
Speaker 4: US politics, it's the greatest reality TV show ever and

540
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,200
Speaker 4: everyone's eyes are glued to it, but they're not doing

541
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 4: anything about it. So think about if you're thinking about

542
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 4: a problem or information that is dealing with the problem,

543
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 4: is it something that you can solve and with that problem,

544
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 4: seeking solutions rather than just defining the problem. The problems

545
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 4: are pretty well defined. So it's about auditing your information diet.

546
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 4: We're not saying ignore what's truly going on, but balancing

547
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 4: the negativity with solution based thinking and information. Really checking

548
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 4: your facts and understanding if you're getting a piece of information,

549
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 4: where's it coming from and what was the intention of

550
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 4: that information in the first place.

551
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: And probably I think a nice little strategy I think

552
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,800
Speaker 2: I mentioned it in my book is to look at

553
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: all the news headlines. Don't click on them, just look

554
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 2: at the headlines and go, is this something that I

555
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 2: could do something about? Acting like yeah, right, because you know,

556
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 2: if it's not, then it's just worry, worry, worry, worry.

557
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 3: What what role?

558
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:07,960
Speaker 2: I don't know if you cover this in your book

559
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 2: at all, So it just might be throwing throwing this

560
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: just just on the spot. What role do you think

561
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 2: reading philosophy, for example, I'm a big fan of reading philosophy,

562
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 2: particularly Stoicism, but there's lots.

563
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 3: Of different philosophies, whatever it.

564
00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: May be, that that can actually give you a really

565
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 2: good sense of perspective. And I think the Stoics in particular,

566
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 2: were very very good at helping people to just align

567
00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 2: their thinking and understanding that it's not what happens, but

568
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,040
Speaker 2: it's about my judgments about that and my actions and

569
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 2: focusing on what I can control. Do you think there's

570
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: a role here in that information diet that it should

571
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 2: include a bit of philosophy.

572
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: I'd like to answer this, please go go. I think

573
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: that what's beautiful about philosop is that it is unanswerable.

574
00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: And I think in our day and age, we are

575
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 1: so glued to the need for certainty and for answers

576
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: that it diminishes our capacity for curiosity. And when we

577
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,719
Speaker 1: lose our ability to be curious and to ask our

578
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 1: own questions and to seek out our own answers, then

579
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: we are really missing out on this ability to like

580
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,880
Speaker 1: stretch ourselves and become uncomfortable and just like have that

581
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 1: sense of wonder and awe and and and playfulness with

582
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: the world. And you know, to be to be or

583
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,480
Speaker 1: not to be? That is the question, right because it

584
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: because it's not answerable. And I think when we like

585
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: we're so in need of certainty in this uncertain world

586
00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: that being able to incorporate some philosophy into your life

587
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: or even pontificating, you know, existentially on your on your

588
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: own life of you know, what does it all mean?

589
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: Not from a doomsday perspective, but just from like a

590
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: you know, what can I get out of this experience?

591
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: I'm here, I'm only here for a short time. What

592
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: am I going to do with this life? And and

593
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: how am I gonna feel joy and feel connection and

594
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: have gratitude and and be thankful? And a lot of

595
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: that stems from curiosity. And there's a really amazing thinker

596
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 1: that we interviewed in our book, David Pearl, who is

597
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:14,800
Speaker 1: very much a curiosity expert. And there's this real interesting

598
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: delineation between interest and curiosity because interest has this sense

599
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 1: of I'm trying to find something out or I'm kind

600
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 1: of judging it a little bit. What is it? What

601
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:26,799
Speaker 1: is it? You know, how does it relate to what

602
00:34:26,840 --> 00:34:30,360
Speaker 1: I need or or what my thinking is, whereas curiosity

603
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 1: is is this exploration. There is no sort of ego involved,

604
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: there's no judgment involved. It's just curiosity for curiosity's sake.

605
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:40,840
Speaker 1: And so, you know, you could go to a party

606
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 1: and be chatting to a bunch of random people and

607
00:34:43,520 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 1: you're like, oh, no, none of these people are very interesting,

608
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 1: and it's like, well, you can be curious about uninterest.

609
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: You can be curious about uninteresting things, just you can.

610
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 2: Be curious about pricks andhads.

611
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: So I think philosoph if he breeds curiosity, it is

612
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,440
Speaker 1: like the essence of what it is. It's it's about

613
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: pondering things that are you know, are not necessarily answerable.

614
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 1: And how do we as human beings be okay with

615
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: that ambiguity? Do you know what I mean? Because because

616
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: right now we live in uncertain times and there is

617
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 1: so much ambiguity and is AI going to save us

618
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: or is it going to kill us? Who the hell knows,

619
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: But just being able to be in that space of

620
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: kind of holding two truths at once and having that

621
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 1: dialectical thinking and being able to say, like going back

622
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,399
Speaker 1: to what tan I was saying about intelligent optimism, like yes,

623
00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 1: things are fucked and they're getting better, and there's there's

624
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 1: there's possible solutions out there that people are doing and

625
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 1: then are getting their their hands dirty. So I think

626
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 1: philosophy has a has a great place and helping us

627
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 1: expand our minds and our thinking and our perspection, perception.

628
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 3: And I love that you.

629
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:53,000
Speaker 2: Sorry China, right the topic just I love that you

630
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:57,919
Speaker 2: three in awe and gratitude there I actually write about

631
00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 2: three of them in my in my book, like curiosity

632
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 2: all and gratitude, like wait, when is the last time

633
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 2: for the listeners that you just sat out and looked

634
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 2: up at the stars.

635
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 3: And went fuck wow like Jesus Christ.

636
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 2: And you know a start that I like to throw out,

637
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,960
Speaker 2: whether it's correct or not, but scientists estimate that our

638
00:36:18,040 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 2: chances of ever having been born are about one in

639
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 2: four hundred trillion.

640
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 3: You know, we've all won the greatest ever lottery.

641
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,480
Speaker 2: How about we start fucking acting like it rather than

642
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 2: just complaining about shit? Right, there's so much amazing shit

643
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 2: for me. A lot of this comes down to attention

644
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 2: and what you choose to place your attention on. So

645
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 2: to Tannag's point, with the information diet, you can choose

646
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 2: where you're placing your attention.

647
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 3: And I think that's the biggest thing that we.

648
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 2: Have under our control is our just being very rigorous

649
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 2: about that flashlid of your attention.

650
00:36:58,320 --> 00:36:59,640
Speaker 3: Because when we pay attention to.

651
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,239
Speaker 1: You, I want to do I want to do you

652
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 1: one better. I think it's about dopamine.

653
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 3: So our attention, we're opening here.

654
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,359
Speaker 1: But I think, yes, there's like attention and dopamine are

655
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 1: so highly connected, right, So it's that it's that motivation

656
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:19,480
Speaker 1: of seeking out the thing, right. And so I've been

657
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 1: fascinated because I have ADHD and I've been so fascinated

658
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: with this concept of this pain pleasure continuum that our

659
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: body exists in. And I don't think a lot of people.

660
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:32,879
Speaker 1: I read Dopamine Nation recently, which talks about this continuum

661
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 1: that has existed within us. And so when we seek

662
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 1: out pleasure all the time, there is an inevitability that

663
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,399
Speaker 1: we will feel pain, we will crush, we will one

664
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: hundred because our body needs to maintain homeostasis, and because

665
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: pain and pleasure are on the same tract within our

666
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: biology and our neurology. And so that's why things like

667
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 1: high intensity interval training or trying something you've never tried

668
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,560
Speaker 1: before that's hard, or doing ice baths or its cold

669
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 1: showers or whatever, you're forcing our body into a pain

670
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 1: state to then be able to tip you into a

671
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 1: pleasure state. And so when we're constantly dopamine seeking this

672
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: short pleasure that we feel and again, it's we are

673
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 1: victims of our conditions because we know so much about

674
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: the way that our brain works. Now, so there's marketers

675
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 1: and neuroscientists and behavioral experts that are just playing on

676
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 1: our that are just playing on our biology and our

677
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 1: wiring to maximize their capacity to sell to us and

678
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 1: to influence us. And so it's grabbing our attention because

679
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 1: it is there is the perfect equation has been unleashed

680
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,719
Speaker 1: around how do we get people to do the shit

681
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,480
Speaker 1: we want them to do through X, Y and Z.

682
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 1: And so I think when people understand more about dopamine

683
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: and pain and pleasure and how much we need to

684
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: find balance in our lives between those two things, because,

685
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 1: like you said before, this level of comfortability that we're

686
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 1: feeling is essentially killing us. It is this intense paradox

687
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: that we exist in as human beings where we are

688
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 1: the most comfortable and most uncomfortable that we have ever been.

689
00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 1: And that is also that's philosophy. Right to be comfortable

690
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 1: or to not to be comfortable? That is the question.

691
00:39:17,680 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 2: You know, I'm laughing because my first book was called

692
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:20,800
Speaker 2: death by Comfort.

693
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 3: Yes, life is killing us.

694
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:26,240
Speaker 2: But I just wrote a LinkedIn article about three days

695
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,879
Speaker 2: ago about the neurobiology of doing hard things and how

696
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 2: the dopamine that you get from easy shit like scrolling

697
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 2: and food and drugs and alcohol causes the crash, whereas

698
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 2: when you do hard stuff, your body rewards you with

699
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 2: a more sustained pit of dopamine but without the crash,

700
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:50,400
Speaker 2: because it's evolutionary biology. Because Tana, when he's fucking hungry,

701
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 2: has to go out and hunt, and it's hard and

702
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 2: he's knackered, and he's got to continue to do that.

703
00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 2: So that's why his brain gives them the reward are

704
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 2: doing hard stuff, because it's like, you need to do

705
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 2: this shit again otherwise we're going to die.

706
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 3: And let's let's let's not talk about because.

707
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 2: You you you guys talk about play right and and

708
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 2: and actually before we get to that, let's just just

709
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 2: finish off. Whoever wants to take this one a bite,

710
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,920
Speaker 2: how our modern work environment keeps our nervous systems stuck

711
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,440
Speaker 2: in threat mode, Right, Tanny, do you want to take

712
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 2: that one? Or Darry you're nodding your head. Whoever, I

713
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 2: don't mind who takes that.

714
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we could both probably contribute. But

715
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:37,080
Speaker 1: just a quick thing to think about and something that

716
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: Tana and I have been sort of uncovering. It's it's amazing.

717
00:40:39,920 --> 00:40:41,439
Speaker 1: I don't know if you have this because you've written

718
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,800
Speaker 1: quite a few books. It's like, after you write your book,

719
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 1: then there's like all of these aha moments and like

720
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: all of these connections and patterns and thinking that just

721
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:54,240
Speaker 1: can continue happening even past finishing the manuscript. And so

722
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: what we're realizing, going back to this conversation around conditions,

723
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: capacity and capability, You are higher in an organization because

724
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 1: of your capability, because you have the skills, the mindsets,

725
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 1: the behaviors that are qualify you for a particular role. Right,

726
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: then we enter these environments or these conditions that do

727
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 1: not sort of elevate or or or grow this or amplify. Yeah,

728
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: so then we're basically suppressing, right where if you imagine

729
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:27,839
Speaker 1: capacity as a cup, right, and your cup starts quite big,

730
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: ready to go, You've got your new job, it's awesome.

731
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: But then as things chip away, everything is high stakes.

732
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:35,240
Speaker 1: That's another thing that we talk about, is like everything

733
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: is a high stakes environment. Everything is so important, everything

734
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 1: is urgent, and again that's how that's how your nervous

735
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: system responds you. You are in fight or flight mode.

736
00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 1: You have amygdala hijack. You're constantly in stress. When we're stressed,

737
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: we can't be curious, we can't have all, we can't

738
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 1: have wonder, we can't be playful. It just doesn't Our

739
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: brain is not great. And because we've created this false

740
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 1: sense of safety with an organization where safety feels like risk,

741
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:08,640
Speaker 1: aversion and conformity and certainty, right like, that's like what

742
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: we sort of secretly identify is safe within an organization.

743
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 1: Let's not do the crazy thing where we're thinking of

744
00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: a million ideas and you know, we need there's there's compliance,

745
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: and all these things that are supposed to keep things tidy,

746
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 1: you know, are the very things that are depleting everyone's

747
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,719
Speaker 1: capacity and therefore their capability. So then we create these

748
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 1: conditions which are suppressing everyone's capability, right because the capabilities

749
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: don't disappear, they don't just like evaporate, they're just suppressed, constrained, suppressed,

750
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 1: put like. And so then we spend shitloads of money

751
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 1: on training so that we can bring people's capability back,

752
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,480
Speaker 1: but we don't actually change the conditions, so we're not

753
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 1: only suppressing capability. Then we're wasting a shit ton of

754
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:57,200
Speaker 1: money trying to re reskill them and something they are

755
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,000
Speaker 1: likely already probably very good at, but it doesn't exist

756
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: at the moment because it's so suppressed. It becomes this

757
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:07,919
Speaker 1: gross self fulfilling prophecy and a total waste of time

758
00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 1: and money. It's like, forget about trying to you know,

759
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 1: upskill people. Just you hired them for a reason. Give

760
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: them the conditions enable them, like let the human potential

761
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:24,839
Speaker 1: be seen and felt and not just going, oh, like,

762
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 1: this is a people problem. People are disengaged and they're

763
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 1: burnt out, and what do we have to teach them

764
00:43:28,920 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 1: how to? I sat on my volume controller, so I

765
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,160
Speaker 1: was like, what's going on? Sorry about that? But yeah,

766
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: so then you know, we need to give them resilience training,

767
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: and we need to give them mental health training. And

768
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,799
Speaker 1: it's just like, wait a minute, pause, what are the

769
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: conditions that you are creating? And that again is very

770
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 1: much on the onus of a leader around how do

771
00:43:52,640 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: you regulate your own nervous system, right, because as soon

772
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 1: as you enter a room, people are going to be

773
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: mirroring and feeling whatever you are bringing in. So from

774
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 1: your coming in and from a sympathetic perspective. People are

775
00:44:07,520 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: going to be catch picking up on that, and that

776
00:44:09,080 --> 00:44:12,720
Speaker 1: doesn't breed safety. So it's like, let's stop trying to

777
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 1: throw a million dollars of money down the toilet, are

778
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 1: on training and actually think about what are the conditions

779
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,800
Speaker 1: we are creating for people to be able to thrive

780
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: within a business context.

781
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, Tanny, let's let's let's not jump into solution mode.

782
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 3: Right, So what are some of.

783
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:36,399
Speaker 5: The things that either leaders and our individuals can do

784
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 5: around improving conditions capacity capability?

785
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,879
Speaker 4: Well, I think they could take one from the military here, Paul.

786
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 4: You might know this. The best special forces training. In

787
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 4: military training is designed to stress sholders. It's designed to

788
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:58,080
Speaker 4: break you, but it deliberately has the conditions built in

789
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 4: for recovery and build capacity along time alongside the stress

790
00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 4: to build tolerance. Most corporate environments basically do the first.

791
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:12,120
Speaker 4: They break you and they call it development, but they

792
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 4: don't really build anything back or change the conditions. So

793
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,120
Speaker 4: I think that's one way to start thinking about it.

794
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:25,600
Speaker 4: I think we talk about serious play, radical curiosity, strategic hope,

795
00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 4: intelligent optimism, and embedded adaptability. Is capabilities depending on your

796
00:45:31,160 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 4: capacity that really can help you thrive and play in

797
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:41,760
Speaker 4: curiosity are some of the most basic, the easiest capabilities

798
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 4: to come back online. You can set the conditions for play,

799
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:49,719
Speaker 4: especially in a work to place environment, quite easily. It's

800
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 4: low stakes risk experiments without any you're playing around, and

801
00:45:55,280 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 4: you can do this in a serious way because play

802
00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 4: is not a child just left over. Its fundamental part

803
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:04,440
Speaker 4: of our emotional system, and it's in pretty much all

804
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:05,480
Speaker 4: mammals as well.

805
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:07,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd like that, Can I jump in here because

806
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:13,680
Speaker 1: this is this is my expertise, sure, sure, so yeah,

807
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 1: I think like what I said before around high stakes,

808
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:21,160
Speaker 1: like when we create low stakes environments, we're building people's confidence,

809
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,680
Speaker 1: right and because again, when we were constantly feeling like

810
00:46:24,719 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 1: everything is high stakes, we're not creating those conditions for practice.

811
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: Like when you think about aviation, for example, pilots are

812
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: constantly using VR and simulation to learn how to fly

813
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:37,880
Speaker 1: a plane because you don't just throw them into a

814
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:39,840
Speaker 1: high stakes environment and put them in a plane with

815
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:41,759
Speaker 1: people on it. Jump.

816
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I fluy helicopters in pretty sharm force

817
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:52,359
Speaker 2: and every single with training was all about progressive overload, right,

818
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,280
Speaker 2: So you do the most basic flighter member our first

819
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 2: ever flight anti submaring war. For you do it in

820
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 2: the simulator, then you go out and then it's a

821
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 2: submarine on the fucking surface traveling straight right, and we

822
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:07,880
Speaker 2: then had to drop down and ping and try and

823
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,279
Speaker 2: track the submarine, and then it's just got more and

824
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 2: more complex. But before every flight, we had simulator flights

825
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: where the instructor would throw in little curveballs for you

826
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 2: to deal with and then stop it and talk you

827
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,759
Speaker 2: through it, so that you learned in the simulator and

828
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 2: you develop that capacity that you could then use in

829
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:30,919
Speaker 2: the real world. Right, Sorry, I just wanted to throw

830
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,280
Speaker 2: that in because that is a fundamental part of that training,

831
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 2: is that progressive overload to the simulation, make mistakes in

832
00:47:38,160 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 2: the simulator so that you then increase your capacity in

833
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 2: the real world.

834
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And so you know when we talk about

835
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 1: low stakes environment, that is just another word for play.

836
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: It's another word for experimentation. It's it's just giving opportunities

837
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:55,279
Speaker 1: to practice. So that way, when shit does hit the fan,

838
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 1: people do have the feeling that they can do it.

839
00:47:58,520 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 1: But we just throw people in the deep end and

840
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,760
Speaker 1: immediately and expect them to sort of swim instead of sink,

841
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 1: and it just it's a feedback loop, that is, so

842
00:48:07,480 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: it's a negative feedback loop. It's like I try, I

843
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 1: just try to do this thing and it didn't work

844
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 1: and I'm incompetent, and then it just this this is

845
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:17,240
Speaker 1: self perpetuating thing. And so, you know, from a play perspective,

846
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 1: like I've been bringing play into workplaces for the last

847
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 1: ten years, and there's so much education that's required because

848
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:26,120
Speaker 1: we've learned that play is childish, that it's frivolous, that

849
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 1: it's a distraction, that it's a ping pong table in

850
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,560
Speaker 1: the corner, or a beanbag or two next to a whiteboard,

851
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:35,919
Speaker 1: when that's not creating conditions like when we when when

852
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: we think about it, it's it's a it's a permission piece. Right,

853
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: So not only do we as individuals have to give

854
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 1: ourselves permission to play and see it not as as

855
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 1: a frivolity in our lives, because again, when we talk

856
00:48:47,480 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 1: about burnout and achievement syndrome, so much of that is

857
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: I have so much to do all the time, I

858
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:56,399
Speaker 1: couldn't possibly do something fun. I just don't have time

859
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 1: for it, you know what I mean. And so we

860
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: have to find that capacity for permission in ourselves to

861
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,440
Speaker 1: be able to play. But then from a leadership perspective

862
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: and a culture perspective, there needs to be this opening

863
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 1: of like, yes, you can test something, and you can

864
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:13,280
Speaker 1: try something, and you can and you can fail because

865
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,439
Speaker 1: there's a different aspects of failure. There's intelligent failure where

866
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:21,040
Speaker 1: it's actually moving towards innovation, moving towards trying new things.

867
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: And so when we don't allow this this kind of

868
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: play space in an organization, which is very much a mindset,

869
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 1: it's not necessarily like again bean bags and slippant like

870
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,439
Speaker 1: slides in the lobby or whatever it is. It's it's

871
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 1: cultivating this sense of you can ask card questions and

872
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,720
Speaker 1: you can test this thing, and you can try something

873
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: and not get it automatically, and creating these kind of

874
00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: micropractices within organizations where then like a muscle, it's built.

875
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:50,960
Speaker 1: And like you were talking about before with the way

876
00:49:50,960 --> 00:49:54,440
Speaker 1: you were flying helicopters, it's like we grow this level

877
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: of confidence and competence by having those low stakes opportunities.

878
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:03,319
Speaker 1: That way, when things are big, we know we can

879
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:06,720
Speaker 1: do it. And so I think this concept of play

880
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 1: is so fundamental to the way that we learn, it

881
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 1: creates new neural pathways in our brain. It releases dopamine, oxytocin, serotonin,

882
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:20,839
Speaker 1: and endorphins. So when it comes to hijacked amygdala's when

883
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,200
Speaker 1: it comes to overwhelmed, when it comes to fight or flight,

884
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:26,520
Speaker 1: the fastest way to bring our nervous system back online

885
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:31,120
Speaker 1: is through some sort of playful intervention. And that might

886
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 1: just be having a lighthearted conversation. It might be listening

887
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 1: to a song. It might be sometimes I talk about

888
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 1: even just making a fart noise with your mouth, like

889
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,919
Speaker 1: as a way to just break this, just break your state,

890
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's just like just a

891
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 1: way to just stop the noise. And so like thinking

892
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 1: back to what brought you joy as a child and

893
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:58,240
Speaker 1: using that as a kind of compass to find things

894
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: for you to connect within your adult life. And obviously

895
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:02,720
Speaker 1: the way we engage in play is different as children,

896
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: as we do as adults, but as also as adults,

897
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:08,799
Speaker 1: we become these passive consumers of play. It's like I

898
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:11,440
Speaker 1: want to sit back and be entertained, and there's no

899
00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: sense of involvement or participation or engagement.

900
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah totally.

901
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 2: And look at this place into hardiness, right, one of

902
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 2: hardiness commitment. One of the big things is being fully

903
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 2: engaged in life, right, not a freaking passive consumer of

904
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 2: life that lots of people are tony.

905
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 3: You mentioned that, you know, the fart noise that.

906
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 2: But one thing that I do with corporate is we've

907
00:51:34,480 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 2: all been in meetings where somebody who just loves the

908
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,920
Speaker 2: sound of their own voice, right, and also tends to

909
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 2: be extroverts like me and you, Dana, who tends to

910
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 2: talk while we're thinking, Dara, Dara. Extroverts often talk while

911
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 2: they're thinking, right, and so they overtalk. But one thing

912
00:51:56,680 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 2: I do with teams is just if somebody's going to

913
00:51:59,040 --> 00:52:02,120
Speaker 2: have a word like jelly fish, we just go jellyfish

914
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 2: and then it's like, yeah, you're talking, but it's a

915
00:52:04,400 --> 00:52:07,480
Speaker 2: nice way of going, Hey, can we just bring this

916
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,680
Speaker 2: back on to the topic, right, So throwing in some

917
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 2: of those little things, Yeah, absolutely.

918
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:17,879
Speaker 1: I'll say jellyfish, latonic and talk now I just play

919
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:19,759
Speaker 1: play is my jam? So I had to I had

920
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:20,480
Speaker 1: to swoop.

921
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:24,320
Speaker 4: In my if we're just come quote cop quote excellent.

922
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 2: So so, so, what what have you got to add

923
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:33,280
Speaker 2: to this to what to what Dara was talking about?

924
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:37,360
Speaker 4: There about playing curiosity.

925
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, or or about the you mentioned playing curiosity, And

926
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 2: I think there was another couple that I didn't get

927
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:43,879
Speaker 2: to write down.

928
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:51,280
Speaker 4: H Yes, strategic hope, intelligent optimism, and then embedded embedded adaptability.

929
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:57,200
Speaker 4: And I think from an evolutionary neuroscientific perspective, playing curiosity

930
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:02,879
Speaker 4: or and adaptability or sort of more ancient. Whereas hope

931
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 4: and intelligent optimism are cognitively expensive, they're more sort of

932
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:11,240
Speaker 4: recently evolved, and they require the prefrontal cortex to be online,

933
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 4: and current conditions and stress and high stakes environments take

934
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:21,160
Speaker 4: the prefrontal cortex offline. And so hope is a really

935
00:53:21,160 --> 00:53:25,720
Speaker 4: interesting one. I like Charles Snyder Hope's theory. So really

936
00:53:25,760 --> 00:53:29,319
Speaker 4: to develop hope, it's not naive hope and just be like, oh,

937
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:30,799
Speaker 4: I believe.

938
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 3: That you know.

939
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:38,440
Speaker 4: Aunky dory. It's about choosing goals and milestones that you

940
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 4: can accomplish in actually understanding that working hard towards a

941
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:46,319
Speaker 4: goal and succeeding can build and foster hope. And it

942
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 4: really has two components. One is agency, it's a belief

943
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 4: that you can actually influence outcomes by your actions, and

944
00:53:56,400 --> 00:53:59,600
Speaker 4: the other layers what they call pathways thinking. It's the

945
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 4: ability to generate routes, goals, and ways forward that are

946
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 4: accessible learned. Helplessness really demonstrates that repeated experiences of uncontrollability

947
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 4: Welcome to the world in twenty twenty six can really

948
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 4: permanently suppress both of those. So it's a nervous system

949
00:54:16,680 --> 00:54:19,920
Speaker 4: that we really need to get back online. We call

950
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,760
Speaker 4: hope as a verb, not a hashtag. Hope is built,

951
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:27,680
Speaker 4: it's not found. And I think intelligent optimism is another one.

952
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:33,839
Speaker 4: It's the most counter evolutionary capability of the five. Our

953
00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:38,439
Speaker 4: default wiring really runs against it. We got negativity bias

954
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 4: which really kept our ancestors alive. I mean, the Savannah

955
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:47,759
Speaker 4: didn't reward optimists. It ate so cultivating intelligent optimism, it's

956
00:54:47,760 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 4: not returning to a natural state. It's really a cognitive

957
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 4: achievement that runs against evolved defaults, and I think it

958
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 4: can really help the right conditions and back to I

959
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:06,239
Speaker 4: think in a way to tune your infermation diet to

960
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:10,720
Speaker 4: foster your own intelligent optimism. I think long form reading

961
00:55:11,160 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 4: that sustained dopamine hits as opposed to the most information

962
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 4: out there is junk food. The equivalent of corn syrup

963
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 4: and jelly babies, because it's that short spike and the

964
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 4: quick crash. So we need solid, wholesome logallycemic index, information

965
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 4: and knowledge and solutions that really can feed us and

966
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:36,480
Speaker 4: keep that those good chemicals flowing. Yeah, because I think

967
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:41,319
Speaker 4: we need hope and intelligent optimism to really break out

968
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 4: of this overwhelmed, burnt out and high stakes environment.

969
00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 3: That's what I would say about that.

970
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,319
Speaker 2: It's interesting that you mentioned those because hope and optimism

971
00:55:51,360 --> 00:55:57,080
Speaker 2: are two critical components of hardiness, right, but they a

972
00:55:57,400 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 2: people who regularly practice gratitude have got more whole and optimism.

973
00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 3: The research is pretty clear on this. And and and

974
00:56:03,239 --> 00:56:04,359
Speaker 3: also I'll throw it to you.

975
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:05,920
Speaker 2: That I think you're going to like it if you

976
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 2: haven't already heard of it is the stock Deal paradox

977
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 2: that that you know came out of the Hanoi Hilton

978
00:56:11,880 --> 00:56:15,879
Speaker 2: in Vietnam, and and Jim stock Deal's whole idea that

979
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:18,600
Speaker 2: you need to retain the faith that you will prevail

980
00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,840
Speaker 2: in the end, regardless of your circumstances, and at the

981
00:56:21,960 --> 00:56:25,360
Speaker 2: same time you have to confront the most brutal aspects

982
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:26,960
Speaker 2: of your reality, whatever they.

983
00:56:26,880 --> 00:56:31,279
Speaker 1: Might be, so you know's the messarch for meaning.

984
00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, totally, and and and the whole the whole

985
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 2: thing is that negative thinking is clearly not helpful under stress.

986
00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:41,480
Speaker 2: But neither is that polyanna optimism, right, we need that

987
00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 2: realistic optimism.

988
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,320
Speaker 3: I think you use a different chart intelligent.

989
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:48,279
Speaker 2: Optimism that that that kind of has the balance of

990
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 2: those things, but again comes into your your skills, like

991
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 2: regularly practicing gratitude can increase hope and optimism. And I'm

992
00:56:57,480 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 2: sure there's there's there's other things, you know, like cognitive

993
00:57:01,239 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 2: reframing techniques, looking for the silver lining, right rather than.

994
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:08,000
Speaker 3: Lamenting on the bad shit. I think there's there's a

995
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:09,239
Speaker 3: heape of things that.

996
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 2: People can do to retrain their brain really well we

997
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:15,000
Speaker 2: talked about Sorry.

998
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:18,760
Speaker 4: Oh that's back to your point on philosophy. I think

999
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 4: philosophy has its place because it's thinking about your thinking,

1000
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 4: and that brings about metacognition, and it shows you the

1001
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 4: way it allows you to let thoughts pass you by

1002
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:32,880
Speaker 4: and actually, do you understand you're, for lack of a

1003
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:37,200
Speaker 4: better way, your operating system and your neural architecture and

1004
00:57:37,240 --> 00:57:40,840
Speaker 4: your thoughts. So I think that that's a way that's

1005
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:44,080
Speaker 4: a fundamental metacognitive way to get out of a lot

1006
00:57:44,080 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 4: of the clusterfuck that we find ourselves in. So philosophy

1007
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 4: has its place. But my one of my favorite teachers,

1008
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:54,240
Speaker 4: the philosophy teacher, said, you studied philosophy for twenty years

1009
00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 4: and the only thing you learned to do was just.

1010
00:57:58,200 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 3: Stop.

1011
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,040
Speaker 4: So I don't not too much philosophy.

1012
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:03,680
Speaker 3: Now, you just cut out there, China.

1013
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:05,840
Speaker 2: For me, you study philosophy for twenty years and the

1014
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 2: only thing you learned was.

1015
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:10,320
Speaker 4: What, oh to stop? I think you're steadly looking at

1016
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 4: philosophy and you're thinking about your own thinking all the time.

1017
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 3: Too much masturbation to master. Gee, you guys have got

1018
00:58:19,640 --> 00:58:20,919
Speaker 3: some cracking turning free.

1019
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 2: For me, it's about applied philosophy right, which I think

1020
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:26,520
Speaker 2: his stoics were very big on, is how how do

1021
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 2: you actually bring it into.

1022
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 3: The real world rather than you know, just pontificating about shit.

1023
00:58:34,880 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 1: So just can I we make a quick comment about

1024
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 1: going back to the kind of the idea like gratitude

1025
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:43,320
Speaker 1: and philosophizing, we have something called playful assumption awareness, and

1026
00:58:43,360 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 1: so how much are we actually challenging our assumptions that

1027
00:58:45,760 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 1: we're making about ourselves in the world and when we

1028
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 1: can kind of approach our assumptions in a way where

1029
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 1: and again that goes back into bias and our kind

1030
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,680
Speaker 1: of evolutionary hangovers. That is something that we deep dive

1031
00:58:57,720 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 1: into the book or from a science communication perspective, under

1032
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 1: standing the way that our brain works. We make a

1033
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 1: joke like have brunch with your brain, take your take

1034
00:59:04,280 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 1: your mind out for a meal. Like, the more we

1035
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:08,920
Speaker 1: can understand the way our brain like is actually wired,

1036
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 1: the more we can work with it instead of against it.

1037
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 1: And so you know, this playful assumption awareness is like

1038
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 1: have a play with what you're assuming, you know. And

1039
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 1: and again, cultivating that sense of curiosity means that you're

1040
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:23,880
Speaker 1: kind of questioning things of the things that you believe.

1041
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:25,840
Speaker 1: And it's like that early programming piece that we talked

1042
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 1: about in achievement syndrome. It's like, are the things that

1043
00:59:28,160 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 1: I believe in actually mine? Do I?

1044
00:59:30,560 --> 00:59:30,640
Speaker 4: Do?

1045
00:59:31,040 --> 00:59:33,920
Speaker 1: You know? Are they programmed from my childhood, from my parents,

1046
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 1: from my culture, from whatever it is? And just you know,

1047
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 1: when when we feel like kind of in this stuckness

1048
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:42,280
Speaker 1: in our lives, we can start to excavate a little

1049
00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 1: bit more into our own you know, our own kind

1050
00:59:45,200 --> 00:59:48,120
Speaker 1: of maze of our minds and and and and start

1051
00:59:48,160 --> 00:59:51,240
Speaker 1: to say and and be again that difference between interest

1052
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:54,479
Speaker 1: and judgment versus genuine curiosity, like you know, I'm doing

1053
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:56,840
Speaker 1: this thing, is this actually helping me? And and what

1054
00:59:56,880 --> 00:59:59,479
Speaker 1: else can I be doing? And kind of taking those

1055
00:59:59,840 --> 01:00:02,280
Speaker 1: that kind of playful assumption awareness and then flipping it

1056
01:00:02,320 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 1: on its head and saying, well, what if this assumption

1057
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:06,360
Speaker 1: wasn't true? What would be different for me?

1058
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 2: And I think that's hugely important, and you should challenge.

1059
01:00:12,960 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 2: The assumptions that you hold the most dearly are the

1060
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 2: ones that you should poke the strongest stright, because often

1061
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 2: these things come from our childooes. But if you've had

1062
01:00:23,360 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 2: adverse childhood experiences, you have assumptions, beliefs, patterns, behaviors that

1063
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 2: may have served you well as a caged to protect you,

1064
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 2: that are now fucking your life up.

1065
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:35,560
Speaker 3: And we've got to do an examination.

1066
01:00:35,960 --> 01:00:38,560
Speaker 1: I mean, we talk about the Immunity to Change Framework,

1067
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:42,680
Speaker 1: which is amazing framework from Harvard University based on Robert

1068
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:45,920
Speaker 1: Keegan and Lisa Lahe around thirty years of adult development research,

1069
01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 1: and it really looks at this psychological tension that exists

1070
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 1: within us around I don't want to die, but I

1071
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:55,160
Speaker 1: also want to grow, and just constantly having that internal

1072
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 1: tension of like this risk aversion is I don't want

1073
01:00:57,360 --> 01:00:59,720
Speaker 1: to look silly or fail or do the wrong thing

1074
01:00:59,840 --> 01:01:02,800
Speaker 1: or looking competent, but I also want to like learn

1075
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:05,880
Speaker 1: things and grow and evolve. And so when we have

1076
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 1: this internal tension, and that's why change is so difficult,

1077
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 1: because it really pushes up against our identity. It pushes

1078
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 1: up against this internal framing of I need to be

1079
01:01:15,520 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 1: safe and this change like it's uncertain and I don't

1080
01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:20,720
Speaker 1: know what to do, but I also really want to grow.

1081
01:01:20,760 --> 01:01:23,480
Speaker 1: And so it's not laziness when we try and change

1082
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:26,000
Speaker 1: something about ourselves. It's just because we're actually trying to

1083
01:01:26,000 --> 01:01:28,160
Speaker 1: put our foot on the gas and the break at

1084
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:30,439
Speaker 1: the same time, and that doesn't work. And that's where

1085
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 1: this kind of assumption piece comes in. It's like, what

1086
01:01:32,840 --> 01:01:35,200
Speaker 1: are the behaviors that I'm doing or not doing that

1087
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 1: are stopping me from being this kind of better version

1088
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 1: of myself or more aware version of myself. What are

1089
01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 1: my fears and worries that sit below those behaviors, and

1090
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:47,920
Speaker 1: then what am I assuming about everything around that? And

1091
01:01:47,960 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: like we talked about before flipping it on its head

1092
01:01:49,680 --> 01:01:51,920
Speaker 1: and just saying like, what if this wasn't true, what

1093
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 1: would I be doing differently? And again having and then

1094
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 1: setting yourself a small experiment. All right, well, if this

1095
01:01:57,480 --> 01:01:59,960
Speaker 1: wasn't true, I can go and give it a little ten,

1096
01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:03,160
Speaker 1: get that positive feedback, and then start to make those

1097
01:02:03,200 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 1: little micro changes. And that's how I think we can

1098
01:02:06,720 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 1: create a better way forward for ourselves, instead of going,

1099
01:02:09,920 --> 01:02:12,919
Speaker 1: I need to change everything. My information diet is shit

1100
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 1: based on what Tane said, and I'm not, you know,

1101
01:02:15,680 --> 01:02:17,560
Speaker 1: like I'm not doing this enough and I'm doing that

1102
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 1: and just like berating ourselves instead of going just all right,

1103
01:02:21,600 --> 01:02:25,240
Speaker 1: let's get curious. Let's be a detective. What's going on here?

1104
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:28,520
Speaker 2: I like to say, be your own scientist, right, just

1105
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:32,400
Speaker 2: freaking run experiments, just just test hypothesis.

1106
01:02:33,240 --> 01:02:34,000
Speaker 3: You've got to do that.

1107
01:02:34,040 --> 01:02:36,040
Speaker 2: So guys, sorry, we are out of time because you've

1108
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:37,120
Speaker 2: got to go and I've got to go.

1109
01:02:37,600 --> 01:02:40,000
Speaker 3: And this has been awesome. I love the conversation.

1110
01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 2: There's so much cool shit in there, and some of

1111
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 2: your turns to free is are brilliant, absolutely brilliant work.

1112
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:46,760
Speaker 3: Can people go?

1113
01:02:47,000 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 2: So the book is called Full Stack Human Work, and

1114
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:55,919
Speaker 2: they obviously available Amazon and everywhere, but website resources. How

1115
01:02:55,920 --> 01:02:58,720
Speaker 2: do they book you guys if they somebody's listening to

1116
01:02:58,760 --> 01:03:01,480
Speaker 2: this and think, fucking hell, my business needs an overhaul

1117
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:03,880
Speaker 2: from these guys, or where can they do it?

1118
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:04,520
Speaker 3: Where do they go?

1119
01:03:05,440 --> 01:03:10,200
Speaker 4: The book's website is full stackhumanbook dot com. You can

1120
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:13,960
Speaker 4: read me and dere to book at future Crunch, which

1121
01:03:14,000 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 4: is the organization that I founded and run and also

1122
01:03:17,360 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 4: my business to I was just I was just as

1123
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:25,439
Speaker 4: I was saying, Culture Hero as you pointed it out,

1124
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:30,520
Speaker 4: but culture here is amazing learning design. There is Australia's

1125
01:03:30,640 --> 01:03:33,120
Speaker 4: leading playwork specialists. So you can check us out at

1126
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:37,160
Speaker 4: culture Hero, future Crunch and full Stack humanbook dot com.

1127
01:03:37,320 --> 01:03:39,520
Speaker 1: And if you're in Melbourne on the twenty seventh of March,

1128
01:03:39,560 --> 01:03:41,720
Speaker 1: we're hosting our book launch event which is going to

1129
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:43,760
Speaker 1: be nothing like any book launch you've ever been to.

1130
01:03:43,920 --> 01:03:47,120
Speaker 1: So you can also find us both on LinkedIn and

1131
01:03:47,160 --> 01:03:50,800
Speaker 1: if you want to jump on and come and celebrate

1132
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:52,680
Speaker 1: what it means to be a full stack human at

1133
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:54,760
Speaker 1: our book launch on the twenty seventh of March in Melbourne.

1134
01:03:54,760 --> 01:03:57,840
Speaker 1: We would love to share the details with that for that.

1135
01:03:57,720 --> 01:03:59,920
Speaker 2: Shit you get it my diary, What time should that

1136
01:04:00,800 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 2: it's thirty.

1137
01:04:02,120 --> 01:04:03,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it starts at five thirty. We're having a pre

1138
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:07,920
Speaker 1: stack event at a burger joint because Tana and I

1139
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 1: love burgers in their stacks. And then it kicks off

1140
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 1: at six thirty. It's in Fitzroy.

1141
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 3: Cold might actually I'm I'm flying back from Hamilton.

1142
01:04:17,800 --> 01:04:20,720
Speaker 2: Did you say cott is a fancy dress.

1143
01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 4: Yes, you can. We'll have costume changes, live music and

1144
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 4: we'll run some little micro experiences.

1145
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:30,080
Speaker 3: Very cold, very cool.

1146
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 2: So guys, if you're in Melbourne twenty seven to March

1147
01:04:32,840 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 2: in Fitzroy, whereabouts do you know you at the venue.

1148
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:38,000
Speaker 1: Or to be Yeah, it's a five easy street, but

1149
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:40,040
Speaker 1: it is. It is ticketed because it is going to

1150
01:04:40,080 --> 01:04:43,320
Speaker 1: be amazing and everyone. You can produce a book there

1151
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:45,960
Speaker 1: or bring your book for us to sign. But yeah,

1152
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 1: you can jump on either of our LinkedIn's or our

1153
01:04:48,720 --> 01:04:51,280
Speaker 1: website and you'll be able to find the details there.

1154
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 3: Awesome, very cool, guys. This has been it's been great.

1155
01:04:54,200 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 2: It's been very educational and amusing at the same time.

1156
01:04:58,160 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 2: And I've got a few nice little turns to prize.

1157
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 2: I'm going to steal that I identify as an Australia and

1158
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:09,400
Speaker 2: my program. So yeah, nah, pretty absolutely like you stole it.

1159
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:12,439
Speaker 3: Guys.

1160
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:15,840
Speaker 2: It'd be great, thank you very much, and I look

1161
01:05:15,880 --> 01:05:17,360
Speaker 2: forward to doing a deep dive into the book and

1162
01:05:17,400 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 2: I'm going to see if i can get along to.

1163
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:19,240
Speaker 3: The book launch.

1164
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 1: Amazing.

1165
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 3: Thank you in the background, it's me, Yes.

1166
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:30,040
Speaker 4: That would be amazing. I would be very grateful for that.

1167
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:32,160
Speaker 1: I would love you to be a smurf please.

1168
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:38,560
Speaker 3: All right, thanks guys, thank you, thank you. If you

1169
01:05:38,680 --> 01:05:39,600
Speaker 3: can so as