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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwin contains course

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by me Headley Thomas and The Australian and are

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Speaker 1: you still there? Yeah, I gotcha. You'll recall that in

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Speaker 1: episode thirty two we told listeners it was time for

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Speaker 1: a break. Andy and Michelle were about to leave on

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Speaker 1: a long planned holiday to England, Ireland and Scotland. Coincidentally,

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Speaker 1: my wife and I were heading for Scotland for most

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Speaker 1: of May. We met Andy and Michelle for dinner one

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Speaker 1: evening on the Isle of Sky. They told us over

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Speaker 1: a few locally brewed ales that they were very hopeful

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Speaker 1: they were looking forward to a police briefing when they

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Speaker 1: returned to Sydney. They were planning to meet Detective Inspector

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Speaker 1: Nigel Warren.

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Speaker 2: I'm hoping to be able to go and have a

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Speaker 2: do briefing with them, find out where we're at.

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Speaker 1: I asked Andy about that when he was home in

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Speaker 1: the Shire south of Sydney and I was back in Brisbane.

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Speaker 1: You got back to some news from Nigel Warren.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I was a little disappointed that I didn't want to

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Speaker 2: have a face to face.

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Speaker 1: Because they were at a It's what seemed to be

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Speaker 1: a sort of a delicate stage of their investigation. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to read too much into it. What did

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Speaker 1: you take from it?

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Speaker 2: Space, We've just got to hope that the Duke diligence

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Speaker 2: has been followed and the right things have been.

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Speaker 1: Andy did not regard the tone of an email he

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Speaker 1: received from the head of Unsolved Homicide as discouraging. No,

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Speaker 1: not at all. He does not want to disclose it

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Speaker 1: in the podcast, Andy looks for a silver lining. Perhaps

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Speaker 1: the postponement of the meeting was a good sign. If

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Speaker 1: detectives are close to moving on Illawong or a suspect

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Speaker 1: or both, would they want to complicate an already very

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Speaker 1: sensitive legal situation by meeting Bromwin's brother for a briefing.

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Speaker 1: Probably not. In the meantime, I'm working on the podcast

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Speaker 1: to take it to its conclusion. In episode thirty two,

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Speaker 1: just before the break, you heard that in the handful

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Speaker 1: of remaining episodes there would be a focus on several things.

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Speaker 1: We are going to look at the new South Wales

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Speaker 1: Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions. Its consideration of

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Speaker 1: a comprehensive brief of evidence occurred some twenty three years ago,

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Speaker 1: after the then Deputy State Coroner Karl Milavanovitch ended the

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Speaker 1: two thousand and two inquest with a recommendation that a

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Speaker 1: known person, John Winfield, be prosecuted for Bromin's murder. Bromin's

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Speaker 1: close friend and neighbor, Deb Hall, recalled that moment in

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Speaker 1: the Lismore courthouse.

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Speaker 4: And he made that ruling and he believed us he

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Speaker 4: could see what we could all see, and he made

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Speaker 4: that statement that he believed that Bromwin Winfield was in

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Speaker 4: fact a deceased person and did die on the sixteenth

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Speaker 4: of May nineteen ninety three, and that a known person

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Speaker 4: was responsible for her death, and that he would make

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Speaker 4: a strong recommendation to the DPP that that person be charged.

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Speaker 4: And he was looking straight at John when he was

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Speaker 4: saying it, and we all went hallelujah. So we thought, yes, great,

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Speaker 4: we've got something. And then of course it was months

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Speaker 4: or weeks later nothing. The DP as we know now

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Speaker 4: wrote a certain standing and said, sorry, how sad, too bad.

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Speaker 1: Here's Bromman's other good friend, Denise Barnard.

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Speaker 3: You think, yeah, well, this is going to happen, and

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Speaker 3: then when it doesn't, you think to yourself, well, he's

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Speaker 3: got away with this. We all believed John was responsible,

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Speaker 3: so we all couldn't believe it.

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Speaker 1: The decision by the DPP that there was insufficient evidence

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Speaker 1: to launch a prosecution was of course made independently and

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Speaker 1: behind closed doors. The detailed reasoning of the DPP is

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Speaker 1: subject to what's called legal professional privilege. It is impossible

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Speaker 1: for outsiders to get access to the notes and process

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Speaker 1: which led to the decision. That means there is no

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Speaker 1: external accountability. Unlike every other department and agency of government,

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Speaker 1: the Office of the DPP's considerations cannot be scrutinized for

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Speaker 1: error by, say, the usual public guardians of government process,

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Speaker 1: such as ordises. This means that if a decision is

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Speaker 1: made in error, if, for example, there has been a

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Speaker 1: misunderstanding of some key evidence by one of the DPP's

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Speaker 1: solicitors during a review of the police brief with all

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Speaker 1: the statements, the error will be concealed along with the

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Speaker 1: decision making process. This actually happened in the case of

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Speaker 1: Lynn Dawson now known as Lynn Simms, who was murdered

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Speaker 1: by her husband Chris in Sydney in nineteen eighty two.

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Speaker 1: Human error by police and someone in the office of

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Speaker 1: the DPP many years ago, resulted in a mistaken belief

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Speaker 1: that there had been a positive sighting of Lynn at

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Speaker 1: a fruit barn by one of her friends days after

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Speaker 1: she had disappeared from her family home on Sydney's Northern Beaches.

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Speaker 1: That fundamental error contributed to a decision to discontinue a

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Speaker 1: police homicide investigation in the early nineteen nineties. The error

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Speaker 1: did not reveal itself until the murder trial in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty two. A murderer had evaded justice for a long time,

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Speaker 1: largely because of that one error. It was a depressing

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Speaker 1: insight into the frailty of the criminal justice system. Later

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Speaker 1: in this episode, you are going to hear from a

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Speaker 1: former longtime staff member in the Lismore office of the DPP,

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Speaker 1: Jackie Crouch. Jackie has followed Broman's case since it first

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Speaker 1: came across her desk. Jackie is the wife of a

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Speaker 1: longtime police officer. In her job at the DPP's offices

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Speaker 1: in Lismore, Jackie read and organized the police briefs which

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Speaker 1: would be given to the Crown solicitors to read. Jackie

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Speaker 1: is not a lawyer. She told me she formed views

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Speaker 1: about the skills of several of her colleagues in the

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Speaker 1: busy Lismore office, solicitors tasked with examining the briefs of

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Speaker 1: evvide to determine whether to prosecute. Here's a brief snippet

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Speaker 1: from our lengthy interview. You must have seen what hundreds

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Speaker 1: of hundreds? How many stand out? Are you like? Promins?

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Speaker 5: She's number one?

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Speaker 6: You see something in your feel, in your spirit, gut

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Speaker 6: heart that it's not right.

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Speaker 1: You remember, you remember because you're not a lawyer and

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Speaker 1: the advising solicitor is a lawyer. Do you have any leverage? Now?

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Speaker 6: I did have leverage with the solicitors that I had

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Speaker 6: respect for. I had leverage with certain solicitors. I certainly

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Speaker 6: didn't with that one.

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Speaker 1: You'll hear more from Jackie later in this episode and

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Speaker 1: later in the series the cold case review by the

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Speaker 1: homicide detective George Radmore, who gathered more evidence to add

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Speaker 1: to Detective Glenn Taylor's bundles. You'll recall during our episodes

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Speaker 1: reconstructing the two thousand and two inquests that there were

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Speaker 1: several references to a woman called Lena, John's former partner

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Speaker 1: with whom he lived in Sandstone Crescent shortly after Broman's disappearance.

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Speaker 1: Here's a reminder from episode twenty eight when the police officer,

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Speaker 1: Sergeant Matt Fordham was talking to the witness Andy Reid

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Speaker 1: during the inquest.

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Speaker 7: And have you ever spoken with Lena about what happened

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Speaker 7: between her and John?

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Speaker 2: She confided in me that she did not want to

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Speaker 2: be seen or even be in the same room as

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Speaker 2: Jonathan Winfield ever again in her life.

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Speaker 1: She said to me.

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Speaker 2: She labeled him a Doctor Jekyll and mister Hyde.

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Speaker 1: Lena and her purported concerns about John's conduct during their

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Speaker 1: relationship do feature in the George Radmore investigation. And you

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Speaker 1: are going to hear about this. What is the latest news, mate?

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Speaker 2: We found out that there's a night on for the

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Speaker 2: homicide support group.

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Speaker 1: On a recent winter morning, I spoke for the unteenth

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Speaker 1: time this past eighteen months to bromwin Winfield's brother.

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Speaker 2: Which I've been part of for the last thirty two years,

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Speaker 2: for information night on supports and services that can be

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Speaker 2: offered the families for trials during trial stages of cases.

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Speaker 1: And we've booked.

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Speaker 2: Ourselves a couple of seats to that, but you're not

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Speaker 2: at that stage I know that, I know that, but

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Speaker 2: I just thought i'd like book my face in the

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Speaker 2: picture to give them a little reminder that we're not

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Speaker 2: going anywhere, and just keep pushing the point and keep

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Speaker 2: advocating for Brin in her case.

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Speaker 1: And we just thought it would be a good thing

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Speaker 1: to do. And his commitment to honor his sister Bromwin

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Speaker 1: and the soul of her disappearance is an inspiration to

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Speaker 1: tens of thousands of listeners. His wife, Michelle, backs him

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Speaker 1: every step of the way. They went together to the

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Speaker 1: meeting of the Homicide Victims Support Group in Sydney. It

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Speaker 1: is run with compassion and professionalism by the loved ones

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Speaker 1: of victims of murder. Reporter Peter Overton profiled the group

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Speaker 1: and its founders for a sixty minute story in twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty two.

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Speaker 8: There are some murders so brutal, so inhuman, they scar

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Speaker 8: the public conscience. Few of us can forget the tragic

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Speaker 8: deaths of Anita Cobby, Ebone Simpson or Janine Balding, who

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Speaker 8: were tortured and abused before they were killed. We can

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Speaker 8: only imagine how devastating it must be for the victims' families.

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Speaker 1: The families of Anita Cobby and Ebony Simpson founded the

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Speaker 1: Homicide Victim Support Group. Now let's hear from Michelle Reid.

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Speaker 1: I spoke to her soon after the meeting of the

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Speaker 1: Homicide Victims Support Group in Sydney. How did that go?

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Speaker 9: There's all people there under the same circumstances as Andy

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Speaker 9: and I are, but everybody there had lost someone to

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Speaker 9: will a homicide. Talking on the night was the new

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Speaker 9: head of New South Wales Homicide.

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Speaker 1: Michelle is talking about Detective Superintendent Joe Dewey. He has

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Speaker 1: taken over from Danny Doherty, who retired from the New

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Speaker 1: South Wales Police Force recently after a long career. Here's

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Speaker 1: Joe Dewey talking at a recent media conference in Sydney

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Speaker 1: about a murder linked to an organized crime gang. Those

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Speaker 1: offenses are clearly targeted offenses. They're callous, their brutal and

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Speaker 1: their offenses against innocent people.

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Speaker 9: We met him who was lovely and very informative about

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Speaker 9: the processes and very hopeful for all the families there

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Speaker 9: about them trying to achieve some sort of answer. And

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Speaker 9: then we had Nigel Warren who spoke about what his

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Speaker 9: unit does. They endeavor to help as many as they can,

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Speaker 9: but it's only with the information that they can gather

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Speaker 9: that they can actually do anything for an unsolved homicide.

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Speaker 9: There are some people there who have gone through the

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Speaker 9: system like we have and have had the coronial inquest

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Speaker 9: and had a person nominated as the person of interest.

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Speaker 9: And there are others there who were at the other

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Speaker 9: end of the spectrum. Even though they might have been

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Speaker 9: ten years since they lost their loved one, they haven't

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Speaker 9: even managed to get to a coronial in quest.

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Speaker 1: In a room full of people whose lives have been

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Speaker 1: touched by violence and homicide, is there a very heavy atmosphere.

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Speaker 9: Everything's so raw for a lot of people. Some people

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Speaker 9: are still quite affected. Bromwin's been probably gone the longest

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Speaker 9: out of anyone that I was aware of.

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Speaker 1: There.

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Speaker 9: We have lived with it first over thirty years, but

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Speaker 9: it was still very emotional. There were lots of why

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Speaker 9: why hasn't this happened? Why is this allowed? There was

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Speaker 9: a senior Crown prosecutor there explaining to people how the

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Speaker 9: system works and how intricate it is very helpful.

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Speaker 1: I thought you and Andy have been understandably very critical

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Speaker 1: over a number of years of police I in a

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Speaker 1: sense that events like the one you went to with

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Speaker 1: the homicide Victim Support group where you talk to senior

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Speaker 1: police can help you see another side to things. Has

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Speaker 1: it given you a bit more patience?

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Speaker 9: They were very good at explaining the reasoning behind the

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Speaker 9: length of time that it takes. So yes, it has

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Speaker 9: made us sort of go okay, well, we'll be patient.

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Speaker 9: They've got lots of information. The podcast aided that unbelievably. Actually,

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Speaker 9: somebody even asked, how do you get your case onto

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Speaker 9: a podcast? And that was one of the questions from

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Speaker 9: one of the other families that were there. People are

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Speaker 9: very aware that there are podcasts out there, and they

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Speaker 9: obviously are thinking that they're doing some good because they're

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Speaker 9: wanting to be involved in it themselves and hoping that

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Speaker 9: somehow they can get the help they need. And the

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Speaker 9: police were very, very good. There was nothing negative about

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Speaker 9: asking that question or nothing negative in their answer either.

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Speaker 1: And he wants to push hard and get on the

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Speaker 1: front forward and sometimes you're saying, well, no, let's just wait.

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Speaker 9: Definitely, having lived and breathed this with him for the

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Speaker 9: last thirty two years and having nothing happened for so long,

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Speaker 9: and then of course knock back, knock back, and then

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Speaker 9: your podcast has come along, which has opened the door

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Speaker 9: to so many people to listen to it, and I

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Speaker 9: think it makes you want to rush. You just think,

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Speaker 9: oh my goodness, that's been thirty two years. Maybe there's

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Speaker 9: a finish line, but in the whole scheme of things,

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Speaker 9: you've just got to bide your time, and whatever the

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Speaker 9: police come up with, we want it to be tight,

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Speaker 9: air tight. We're saying, just hold back, let them finish

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Speaker 9: whatever they're doing. And you know, and we don't have

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Speaker 9: any idea what they're doing. We are not privy.

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Speaker 1: Is it fair to say that you are sometimes saying

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Speaker 1: to Andy, no, just be a bit more patient.

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Speaker 9: Yes, because he wants the resolution, he wants to know

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Speaker 9: what happened to his sister, whatever that may be. But

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Speaker 9: you do have to hold back. You do have to wait.

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Speaker 9: You've got to let the police follow the protocols. You've

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Speaker 9: got to let everyone do what they have to do.

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Speaker 9: If you pushed too quickly, then I think any opportunities

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Speaker 9: might get lost.

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Speaker 1: Your tone and Andy's tone now in being more prepared

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Speaker 1: to have that patience and to accept that the police

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Speaker 1: are going to take a bit more time, has changed

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Speaker 1: over the last year and a half. That we've been talking,

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Speaker 1: You've I think both gone from being very impatient and

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Speaker 1: very frustrated and unhappy with the police performance and wanting

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Speaker 1: to just move forward whatever happens, whereas it's different now.

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Speaker 1: I can hear it in your voice and Andy's voice.

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Speaker 1: That might be because you now have more confidence than

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Speaker 1: you've had before.

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Speaker 9: Over the years we've pushed the police in Ballina to

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Speaker 9: look into a case.

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Speaker 5: Our hands were tied.

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Speaker 9: We had the inquest and then we thought maybe things

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Speaker 9: would go along from there, and then our hands have

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Speaker 9: been tied again when we finally got to talking to

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Speaker 9: you and reliving it all totally again. Oh, we just

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Speaker 9: wanted things done, so I think yes, we were very

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Speaker 9: gung ho and wanted things to happen. Things are probably happening.

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Speaker 9: We just don't know. We have to sort of wait

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Speaker 9: it out.

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Speaker 1: We've covered so much ground and I feel that the

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Speaker 1: podcast needs to get to the finish and then sit

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Speaker 1: for a while.

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Speaker 9: Yes, now what that conclusion is, I'm not sure that

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Speaker 9: we'll see.

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Speaker 1: Andy and I also talked about the next stage in

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Speaker 1: this podcast series. He understands that we are now nearing

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Speaker 1: the finish line in the Bromwin podcast, investigation. This is

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Speaker 1: the final showdown, at least until or unless the restarted

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Speaker 1: investigations by the New South Wales Police Unsolved Homicide Unit

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Speaker 1: take matters further. The unit's detective Inspector in charge is

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Speaker 1: Nigel Warren, and he told Andy and Michelle in May

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty four that his officers were unable to advance

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Speaker 1: Broman's case. There was no new evidence back then and

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Speaker 1: they had effectively hit the wall. But within weeks, new

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Speaker 1: and remarkable disclosures in the podcast, including from Bromwin's near neighbor,

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Speaker 1: Judy Singh, changed everything. Judy's revelations about seeing what look

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Speaker 1: like a body wrapped in sheets in John's Ford falcon

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Speaker 1: on the night Bromin disappeared prompted detectives to fly to

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Speaker 1: Cooling Gadder on the New South Wales Queensland border, take

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Speaker 1: a statement from Judy and drive her to Lennox Head

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Speaker 1: where she showed them where she was when that ereciting occurred.

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Speaker 1: Now that was twelve months ago. We believe that detectives

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Speaker 1: have been active on Broman's case since our discovery of

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Speaker 1: new evidence of two concrete paws at a building site

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Speaker 1: in Illawong where John Winfield was bricklaying and helping build

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Speaker 1: a house for his boss, Glenn Webster, have led us

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Speaker 1: to suspect that Bromwin's body could have been concealed beneath

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Speaker 1: plastic and reinforcing steel known as RIO, just before those

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Speaker 1: concrete paws. It might explain John's hasty trip back to

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Speaker 1: Sydney when he drove through the Sunday night of May sixteen,

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, and it might explain his plea to

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Speaker 1: his former wife's mother in law to look after the

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Speaker 1: two girls for several hours on Monday, May seventeen. It

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Speaker 1: is possible that unsolved homicide detectives, led by Inspector Warren,

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Speaker 1: with the authorization of the State Coroner, will undertake a

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Speaker 1: thorough penetrative search beneath the patio slab and the garage

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Speaker 1: slab of the Illawong house which once belonged to the builder,

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Speaker 1: Glenn Webster. Must be a bit of a headspin for you, Glenn,

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Speaker 1: knowing John as you did back from the day. It

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Speaker 1: is a bit I never had a problem with John

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Speaker 1: Patrol John yet three my houses.

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Speaker 9: He played his card very close to his chest.

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Speaker 1: And obviously we're looking out whether as possible that Bromin's

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Speaker 1: body was put under the rio of that slab. We

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Speaker 1: have been waiting for some news about that for the

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Speaker 1: past seven months, ever since our friend Karina Berger, the

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Speaker 1: lawyer with experience in helping run coronial investigations, came up

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Speaker 1: with the idea of drafting a letter for Andy to

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Speaker 1: send to the State Coroner, Theresa O'Sullivan, a letter with

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Speaker 1: all the detailed and compelling reasons to justify searches beneath

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Speaker 1: those concrete slabs. Since early December twenty twenty four, when

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Speaker 1: that letter was sent to the State Coroner's office, we

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Speaker 1: have looked forward to a possible announcement of what we

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Speaker 1: hope will be a properly resourced and expertly run search.

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Speaker 1: Everyone we talk to with knowledge of the case, from

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Speaker 1: former homicide detectives to seasoned lawyers, say the Illewong site

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Speaker 1: needs to be searched, if only to be ruled out.

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Speaker 1: The circumstances surrounding that site are deeply suspicious. Our view

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Speaker 1: is that this type of search beneath the foundations of

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Speaker 1: a private dwelling in a well heeled suburban street should

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Speaker 1: be done under the legal authority of the state coroner.

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Speaker 1: Or the Unsolved homicide Unit. For now, at least, we

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Speaker 1: do not want to try it ourselves. First, would the

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Speaker 1: owners of that attractive and valuable two story house even

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Speaker 1: permit us to come onto their land and proceed to

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Speaker 1: break up the concrete of their garage and patio? Would

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Speaker 1: you let strangers do something similar at your own home. Second,

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Speaker 1: if the owners did permit us to search in this way,

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Speaker 1: independently of police or the state coroner, and if we

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Speaker 1: found something under the concrete, there would inevitably be questioned

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Speaker 1: about the integrity of that evidence. We might find ourselves

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Speaker 1: accused of potentially contaminating a crime scene despite the failure

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Speaker 1: of the authorities to go there before us. Andy Michelle,

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Speaker 1: Maddie Walsh, Karina Berger and others giving us good advice

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Speaker 1: believe we need to.

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Speaker 10: Having done a lot of litigation and having been a

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Speaker 10: lawyer for a long time, I'm sort of always thinking

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Speaker 10: about risks and pros and cons.

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Speaker 1: We believe that there is a possibility the new South

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Speaker 1: Wales Director of Public Prosecutions will conclude that there is

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Speaker 1: already enough evidence to greenlight a murder charge against John Winfield,

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Speaker 1: who has always denied wrongdoing. But of course it is

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Speaker 1: possible that there will never be a formal search at Ilowan,

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Speaker 1: and that a prosecution of John is merely wishful thinking

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Speaker 1: on Andy's part. Andy just doesn't know, nor do I,

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Speaker 1: but I can sense that he's recently become more trusting

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Speaker 1: of the process. There are indications of some patients that

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Speaker 1: did not exist before. Now let's return to disclosures by

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Speaker 1: Jackie Crouch, a woman from whom you heard briefly earlier

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Speaker 1: in this episode. Jackie first emailed me on August thirty one,

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Speaker 1: twenty two. That was the day after Justice Ian Harrison

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Speaker 1: in the New South Wales Supreme Court delivered a verdict

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Speaker 1: in the murder trial of Chris Dawson Christopher Michael Dawson.

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Speaker 2: On the charts that on are about eight January nineteen

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Speaker 2: eighty two at Bayview or elsewhere in the state of

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Speaker 2: New South Wales.

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Speaker 1: You did murder Lynett Dawson. I find you guilty. Mass

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Speaker 1: it down. Jackie has agreed to read from her email

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Speaker 1: the day after Justice Harrison spoke those words.

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Speaker 5: Such a wonderful result yesterday with Justice Harrison guilty in

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Speaker 5: the Dawson trial. I'm now retired, but I worked for

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Speaker 5: thirty years for the New South Wales Office of the

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Speaker 5: Director of Public Prosecutions in Lismore. There is a matter

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Speaker 5: that has stayed with me that came into the office

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Speaker 5: as an advising where police refer matters to the ODPP

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Speaker 5: for question of charging. I've never really felt comfortable.

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Speaker 6: About this matter, and on the face of things, it

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Speaker 6: did fall of bit short of charging anyone. It's a

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Speaker 6: similar matter to the Dawson matter, missing mother of children

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Speaker 6: husband was controlling.

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Speaker 5: Her name was.

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Speaker 6: Bromwin Winfield and she lived and disappeared from lenox Head.

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Speaker 5: You may be interested in having a look at it.

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Speaker 6: I feel there is a place for investigating journalists and

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Speaker 6: podcasts in our justice system.

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Speaker 1: Jackie didn't know back then that a podcast investigation into

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Speaker 1: Bromman's case was planned. It would take another eighteen months

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Speaker 1: for it to start. I met and interviewed Jackie for

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Speaker 1: the first time at a house in Kingscliff, about halfway

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Speaker 1: between Brisbane and lenox Head, in early February twenty twenty four,

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Speaker 1: and afterwards I drove to Sandstone Crescent to interview Deb

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Speaker 1: Hall and Murray Nolan for the first time. The point

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Speaker 1: is that when Jackie spoke to me about Bromwin. She

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Speaker 1: had not heard any of the podcast because it didn't

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Speaker 1: exist then it was months away from being produced. Hi Jackie,

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Speaker 1: good to see Jackie. Sister Mary, Hi Mary, how are

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Speaker 1: you coming in?

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Speaker 5: I'm just dropping her.

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Speaker 1: You're very welcome.

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Speaker 3: No, it's fine.

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Speaker 1: My friends live in Brisbane, but this is their holiday place.

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Speaker 1: When we sat down inside, Jackie spoke about her career

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Speaker 1: in the criminal justice system and as an employee in

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Speaker 1: the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions in Lismore.

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Speaker 1: In that office, police briefs of evidence from regional towns,

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00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: including Balliner, would be considered by solicitors for the DPP.

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Speaker 6: It wasn't legal. I worked in all three levels of

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Speaker 6: the court system at varying times. Was there thirty years.

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Speaker 6: So I worked in district and then Supreme Court. I

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Speaker 6: worked as associate to his his Honor, Judge Ducker, and

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Speaker 6: then I went back to the DPP and worked in

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Speaker 6: the local court section. My job was to coordinate a

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Speaker 6: group of solicitors. Liz More office went from Maxville in

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Speaker 6: the south to Tweetheads and west to Armadale in veril.

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Speaker 1: That office in Lisbon covers a big area, I guess,

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Speaker 1: very big area.

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Speaker 6: Used to go to Maurey and narrow bribe, but they

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Speaker 6: cut that off. It was a big circuit and we

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Speaker 6: serviced all local courts in that area, all district courts

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Speaker 6: and all Supreme courts. So every morning it'd be making

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Speaker 6: up files, requesting briefs. When the briefs come in, checking

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Speaker 6: that everything's there, putting them in order, briefing the solicitor

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Speaker 6: in turn, you've got a fairly big pool to brief

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Speaker 6: and these are Crowns series employed by the DPP.

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Speaker 1: Yes, you wrote.

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Speaker 11: To me out of the blue and raised Godwin Windfield's case.

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Speaker 6: Yep, it's stuck in my crawl because it was bleeding

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Speaker 6: more obvious what had happened. And then it was recreated

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Speaker 6: by Chris Dawson and baden Clay exactly the same scenarios.

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Speaker 1: Jared baden Clay claimed that his wife Allison, went for

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Speaker 1: a walk in April twenty twenty twelve and just disappeared.

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Speaker 1: But Jared had murdered the mother of their three daughters

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Speaker 1: and then dumped her body in swampy bush beside a creek.

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Speaker 1: He wanted to continue his affair with another woman and

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Speaker 1: collect on Allison's life insurance. My wife and I were

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Speaker 1: friends with Allison and Jared in our semi rural community.

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Speaker 1: Our children and theirs went to school and played together.

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Speaker 1: Jered was found guilty of Allison's murder in July twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 1: The murder trial heard evidence of years of coercive control

438
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: he practiced towards Alison and their daughters. He will be

439
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,480
Speaker 1: eligible for parole in a couple of years. Jackie told

440
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: me of her respect for the judge for whom she

441
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 1: worked in Lismore, William Ducker. Those who knew him well

442
00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 1: called him Tom. He was a mentor to Jackie and

443
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 1: they remained friends until he died. Judge Dukker was old school.

444
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: He would not have approved of Jackie raising her concerns

445
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: with a journalist.

446
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 6: I always go back to what would Tom think. Tom

447
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:17,080
Speaker 6: would hate investigative journalists. He would see it as interfering

448
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 6: in his court, and we would fight bitterly over that

449
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,680
Speaker 6: if he was alive today. A stickler for the process,

450
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 6: and say to me, Croucy, justice must not just be done,

451
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 6: It must be seen to be done at all times,

452
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 6: and people mustn't interfere.

453
00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: Many judges align the same way, because in Jackie's view, they're.

454
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 6: Very entrenched in their thinking.

455
00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: People in senior roles in the criminal justice system are rarely,

456
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,520
Speaker 1: if ever in favor of journalists looking too closely at

457
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 1: how the sausage gets made, how they do their jobs,

458
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: at least that's my experience, but some do appreciate that

459
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: the system is improved with transparency and that outsiders and

460
00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: non lawyers looking in might make a positive difference by

461
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: identifying and highlighting errors which can be corrected. Jackie explained

462
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,440
Speaker 1: that in the Lismore office of the DPP, police detectives

463
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 1: like Glenn Taylor from Balliner would routinely come in with

464
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 1: cases that they had been working on. They would seek

465
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 1: professional advice on whether there's enough to take the matter

466
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: further with a criminal charge. The same routine would unfold

467
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: in offices across the state.

468
00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 6: It's the police file signed off by their hierarchy. It

469
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 6: goes through a certain process to the police department saying basically,

470
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:45,880
Speaker 6: in not so many words, I don't know what to

471
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,760
Speaker 6: do with this. I've got a certain feeling about it,

472
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 6: but I can't get it over the line.

473
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,080
Speaker 1: They're looking for the office of the DPP to give

474
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: them the green lights. Say look, you've got enough or.

475
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 6: Not yep, or the who might look at it and go, yeah,

476
00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 6: it's really good. It is a bit short. I'd like

477
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 6: you to go back and interview this person again. So

478
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 6: they call requisitions, so it comes in.

479
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: What do you do?

480
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 6: I register it, dual the administrative creating files, that sort

481
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 6: of stuff.

482
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,720
Speaker 12: But you're reading so much in that.

483
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 1: Job because you read all the witness statements, you read

484
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: the police brief in a reatirem.

485
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 6: Yeah.

486
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 13: Yeah.

487
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 6: Advisings in those days were done by the lawyer manager.

488
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: For you to form the view that you formed about

489
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: this case.

490
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 6: I would have read the report once it came back

491
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 6: from the solicitor and it was being returned, like he

492
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 6: would have come out and said, I'll finish the wind

493
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 6: Field matter.

494
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 12: That's got to go back.

495
00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 1: And that solicitor is a solicitor employed by the Office

496
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: of the DPP to provide the formal advice to the

497
00:32:55,440 --> 00:33:00,320
Speaker 1: police whether they charge or let it go or do

498
00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:03,880
Speaker 1: more work. Yep, did you form a view? Yeah?

499
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 6: To me, it was bleed and the lobbyous. There's two

500
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 6: small children. There's an argument. He says, she left no wife.

501
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 6: I think we'll go for a holiday to Granny's in Sydney,

502
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,840
Speaker 6: packed the kids up, put them in the car with

503
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 6: the luggage and we drive to Sydney and stay for

504
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 6: I think from memory two weeks. From memory, there was

505
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 6: no sign of struggle, there was no sign of blood,

506
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 6: there was no sign of any harm them from.

507
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 1: The let's go back to there's more. Do you've got

508
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: the file or the letter of the advice back from

509
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: the solicitor? Yep? Do you read that? Yes?

510
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 6: Yes, But after it's come back, I would have had

511
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 6: a good read.

512
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: Why did you reach this decision?

513
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 6: Oh you're sending this back? Why what was missing in this?

514
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: Really?

515
00:33:57,600 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 5: And there'd be a discussion.

516
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 6: We would have talked ten to fifteen minutes about it.

517
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 6: I don't think in that brief that we've got there

518
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 6: was enough, but there could have been requisitions. There's not

519
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:10,640
Speaker 6: enough house for more.

520
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 12: If you think it's light light on us for more.

521
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,920
Speaker 1: And are you confident from your memory that he didn't

522
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:19,759
Speaker 1: do that? Oh, he didn't do it.

523
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:20,680
Speaker 6: It went straight back.

524
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 1: The Prosecution Policy states that while the Office of the

525
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 1: DPP has no investigative function of its own and no

526
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 1: power to direct police in their investigations, the office, and

527
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 1: i'd quote here advises investigators in relation to the sufficiency

528
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 1: of evidence to support nominated charges and the appropriateness of charges,

529
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: but not in relation to operational issues, the conduct of investigations,

530
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: or the exercise of police or agency powers. It's way

531
00:34:58,200 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 1: on your mind.

532
00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 6: Oh it has, it has, Yeah, because I knew it

533
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 6: was wrong.

534
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: It might not be too late. No, no, it might not.

535
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: Jackie said that she spoke recently to a former police

536
00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 1: officer from Ballina. I'm not going to disclose his name here,

537
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 1: but that former officer was not Glenn Taylor or Graham

538
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: Diskin or Wayne Temby.

539
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,839
Speaker 6: I just said to him, did you ever have one

540
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 6: of those matters where it just stuck and you weren't

541
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 6: happy with how it panned out?

542
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: Yep? Who was it for you? Bloke? Call win Field?

543
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 5: Where's the Badie now? Is he around still?

544
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: Lennox alleged Badie Jackie?

545
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:41,720
Speaker 12: Yeah, of course.

546
00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: One of the.

547
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 11: Reasons I was really interested in your email was because

548
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,720
Speaker 11: I had been collecting material for the previous four years

549
00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:54,120
Speaker 11: on Robin's case.

550
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,400
Speaker 1: Oh right, okay, others are contacting me. He wanted to

551
00:35:58,560 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 1: raise it. They've been concerned about in the almost eighteen

552
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:08,680
Speaker 1: months since that conversation with Jackie Crouch. She has listened

553
00:36:08,719 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: to all of the Bromwin episodes up to now. We

554
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: have exchanged text messages and emails. Jackie believes that the

555
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:20,240
Speaker 1: police brief of evidence, which she read in the Lizmore

556
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,400
Speaker 1: office of the DPP, came in prior to the inquest.

557
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: The lengthy police statement by Detective Glenn Taylor was signed

558
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: by him and dated October five, nineteen ninety nine. It

559
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: would make sense for him to have included his statement

560
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:39,240
Speaker 1: in the brief that was reviewed in the Lismore office

561
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 1: of the DPP. It is probable that the brief went

562
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 1: to that office for review by the lawyer manager there

563
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: sometime after October nineteen ninety nine and before the inquest,

564
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 1: which started in May two thousand and two. I interviewed

565
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 1: Jackie a second time shortly before the release of this

566
00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 1: episode the thirty three.

567
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 14: Initially, he said to me, I'm getting rid of it.

568
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 14: It's going back words to that effect, and when I

569
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 14: pushed him, he said, I'm pissing it off.

570
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,960
Speaker 1: You just do your job. You're remembering a conversation that

571
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:21,359
Speaker 1: has occurred, possibly twenty five years ago. What's your level

572
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,080
Speaker 1: of confidence about that conversation? And as you've described it.

573
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 15: I'm very confidently in my thirty years of working for

574
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 15: the DPP, it's probably early between three and five matters

575
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 15: that have stayed with me, and this one was one

576
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 15: that particularly stayed with me. Didn't feel comfortable the whole

577
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:42,280
Speaker 15: way it was handled.

578
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:43,480
Speaker 5: It was smelly.

579
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: We do not know how the original police brief of

580
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 1: evidence which went to the Lismore office might have changed

581
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 1: by the time the inquest got underway. Was it essentially

582
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: the same brief of evidence that the Lismore lawyer manager

583
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: for the dp had reviewed and rejected. We do know, however,

584
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,040
Speaker 1: that the Deputy State Coroner recommended at the end of

585
00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,800
Speaker 1: his inquest that a known person be prosecuted over Bromman's murder.

586
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: This finding meant that the Lismore office of the DPP

587
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: would have received the Winfield brief again, but this time

588
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: bearing a recommendation from the Deputy State Coroner, and it

589
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: almost certainly would have included the transcripts of the five

590
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: days of public hearings from the inquest at the local

591
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: courthouse in Lismore. In the Office of the Director of

592
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:40,560
Speaker 1: Public Prosecutions, there are documented guidelines in relation to running

593
00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:41,879
Speaker 1: a prosecution.

594
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 12: A decision to proceed in a matter or to take

595
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 12: no further proceedings, will be reversed when it is in

596
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:51,319
Speaker 12: the interests of justice to do so. It may be

597
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:53,959
Speaker 12: in the interests of justice to reverse a decision if

598
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,840
Speaker 12: significant new facts warranted, or the decision was the result

599
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 12: of fraud or in proper conduct, or the decision was

600
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:04,600
Speaker 12: made on an erroneous basis.

601
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,360
Speaker 1: Significant new facts have come to light in Roman's case.

602
00:39:10,080 --> 00:39:13,800
Speaker 1: Whether those new facts warrant a reversal of the previous

603
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: decision is a matter for the DPP. In twenty twenty five,

604
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:22,280
Speaker 1: a quarter century after the Lismore office first considered the case,

605
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:28,080
Speaker 1: the brief of evidence presumably would have been returned again

606
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: to the Lismore office of the DPP.

607
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:34,480
Speaker 6: Is that right, Yes, it would have come back in

608
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 6: as a referal from a coronial inquest.

609
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 1: There's a second opportunity. Then, what do you think has

610
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:47,319
Speaker 1: happened in relation to that file after it has been

611
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: recommended for prosecution by the coroner.

612
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 16: It's come back into the office.

613
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,480
Speaker 1: Jackie said that it would have then gone to the

614
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:00,879
Speaker 1: same lawyer manager who had previously rejected it. He has

615
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 1: not worked for the DPP for some years. I contacted

616
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,720
Speaker 1: him seeking a background briefing or an interview on the record,

617
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:10,280
Speaker 1: but I heard nothing back.

618
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,799
Speaker 16: The procedure would be he would do a report, It

619
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 16: would then go to the Crown Prosecutor to their chambers

620
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,040
Speaker 16: and it then goes from there to the Director's chambers

621
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 16: in Sydney.

622
00:40:23,640 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 1: Why then, with those extra steps was the file not

623
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:33,040
Speaker 1: advanced for prosecution? Is it because there just wasn't enough

624
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:33,960
Speaker 1: there in their view?

625
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 14: Well, that's what they're saying, there wasn't at that time,

626
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 14: there wasn't enough there.

627
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,760
Speaker 1: With the help of a librarian from the National Library

628
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 1: of Australia, we got the prosecution guidelines that were in

629
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: place in two thousand and two and for much of

630
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 1: two thousand and three where the charge was one of

631
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:57,640
Speaker 1: murder or manslaughter, the guidelines required that the lawyer's recommendation

632
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 1: be referred to the Director's chamber for final consideration. It

633
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: means that the new South Wales Director at the time,

634
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 1: Nicholas Cowdery, QC, was ultimately responsible for the decision. Right

635
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: back at the start of the Brodwin podcast series, you

636
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,919
Speaker 1: heard that mister Cowdery wrote to Andy Reid in two

637
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:21,280
Speaker 1: thousand and three some months after the inquest.

638
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:25,920
Speaker 13: The disappearance of your sister Bronwin Winfield in May nineteen

639
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 13: ninety three has no doubt caused much grief to you

640
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 13: and your family, and I offer my sympathies. My advice

641
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 13: to police in the coroner, after very careful consideration of

642
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 13: all the evidence presently available, is that there is not

643
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 13: sufficient evidence to charge Jonathan Winfield or any other person.

644
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 13: Bronwan's disappearance was not reported to the police for two

645
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,760
Speaker 13: weeks and was initially treated as a missing person inquiry.

646
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 13: By the time it was dealt with as a possible homicide,

647
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 13: years had passed and any potential scientific evidence was long gone.

648
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:58,359
Speaker 13: There is nobody and no known cause of death. While

649
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 13: Jonathan Winfield is the last known person to have seen

650
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 13: her alive, there is no evidence that he killed her

651
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,239
Speaker 13: or had any role in her disappearance. Suspicion cannot be

652
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 13: substitution for evidence.

653
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: Significantly, Mister Cowdery gave this undertaking. He said in the

654
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 1: letter that if at some time in the future fresh

655
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:24,600
Speaker 1: evidence becomes available, then the matter will be reconsidered. In

656
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: a situation like that where they've already rejected at once,

657
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 1: perhaps a couple of years earlier. Are those files sometimes

658
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: just harder to get up even after they've been through

659
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: a coronial process, or are they, in your experience, judged

660
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,720
Speaker 1: always on their merits at the time they are received

661
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: in that office.

662
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 6: I would like to think they're judged again, that it's

663
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 6: not just a rubber stamp.

664
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 1: Because you're not a lawyer. I can imagine that lawyers

665
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:03,919
Speaker 1: who have worked in this area would be possibly irritated

666
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: at you remaining your concerns about this matter.

667
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 6: It's definitely I had a lot of respect from a

668
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 6: lot of very good lawyers, but a lot of lawyers

669
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 6: like to remind me of my role and that I

670
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,359
Speaker 6: should stay in it. I was entitled to my own

671
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,840
Speaker 6: opinion and thoughts, and I've been there a long time

672
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 6: and seeing a lot of stuff. There were shortcuts being taken,

673
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:33,800
Speaker 6: and then we're things not being done one hundred percent correctly.

674
00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 1: We first spoke about three months before the very first

675
00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:45,280
Speaker 1: episode of the Bromwin series was published, and you've heard

676
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,880
Speaker 1: the series since then, yes, And have you heard anything

677
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,840
Speaker 1: that makes you think, well, maybe the right call was

678
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: made for not prosecuting this, or are you more strongly

679
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 1: of the view that it should have been put before.

680
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 6: A jury more strongly of the view, I haven't heard

681
00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:02,800
Speaker 6: any redeeming.

682
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,600
Speaker 1: Factors from everything that Jackie has told me. It's plain

683
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: that she and the former lawyer manager of the office

684
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 1: in Lismore did not have a great working relationship.

685
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:16,600
Speaker 5: And I did see stuff that happened.

686
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: I asked whether she had an ax to grind. Jackie

687
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,720
Speaker 1: said it wasn't personal. She just didn't rate the former

688
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 1: lawyer manager. But he didn't fire you or anything like that.

689
00:44:28,640 --> 00:44:31,720
Speaker 5: No, no, I replied, he left long before I left.

690
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: You can't ever get behind the reasoning process in the

691
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:40,399
Speaker 1: consideration of whether or not a matter should be prosecuted. Yeah,

692
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 1: you're right, thislicitor says no, it's not enough evidence for

693
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 1: not prosecuting it, or Crown says that, And people will

694
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 1: not ever know if someone has unwittingly innocently misunderstood a

695
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 1: piece of evidence that was crucial. And I saw this

696
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 1: happen in Lynn Dawson's case. We didn't learn and to

697
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, in the murder trial, the reason that

698
00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:06,879
Speaker 1: case was dropped to the police. Investigations early on were

699
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:12,359
Speaker 1: terminated was because of a wrong belief that Linn had

700
00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: been seen at a fruit Barn. Now we do not

701
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 1: have access to the DPP's reasoning and advice in Bromman's matter,

702
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,919
Speaker 1: which means we cannot confirm what it was, nor whether

703
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: police were asked to get any additional evidence through requisitions

704
00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: after the two thousand and two coronial inquest. Remember, Jackie

705
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,680
Speaker 1: saw the brief of evidence which came into the Lismore

706
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:42,200
Speaker 1: office before the inquest. She does not have direct knowledge

707
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:46,399
Speaker 1: in relation to consideration of the brief of evidence which

708
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 1: must have come into that office after the inquest.

709
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,760
Speaker 6: I did see matters that were discontinued that perhaps shouldn't

710
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 6: have been hard to on both of that, we all

711
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 6: make errors and very often on admitted.

712
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: At the start of this podcast series, a statement from

713
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 1: New South Wales Police disclosed that since the DPP's rejection

714
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,240
Speaker 1: of the case in two thousand and after a second

715
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:16,360
Speaker 1: rejection by the DPP in two thousand and three following

716
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 1: the inquest, detectives had sought further advice from the DPP

717
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight, and then more submissions by

718
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: police went to the DPP's office in twenty twelve. That

719
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:33,239
Speaker 1: would have been after the then Detective Inspector George Radmore's

720
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: cold case reinvestigation of Broman's disappearance. However, the office of

721
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 1: the DPP told detectives in twenty thirteen and again in

722
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:47,799
Speaker 1: twenty fourteen that there would be no proceedings in Bromman's

723
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:54,280
Speaker 1: case without consideration of what the DPP called significant new material.

724
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 5: I worked with absolutely brilliant people. The lawyer manager that was.

725
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 17: There at the time that I left, who's now a

726
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:06,280
Speaker 17: Crown prosecutor. I'll swear, absolutely brilliant lawyer and very diligent,

727
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 17: very conscientious. That my god, I saw some lazybuggers not

728
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,919
Speaker 17: put their heart into a prosecution because it was too hard.

729
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,800
Speaker 18: Lynette Daily's loved ones have been fighting hard for justice

730
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,399
Speaker 18: for six long years. The young mother bled to death

731
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:26,240
Speaker 18: at ten Mile Beach on Australia Day twenty eleven after

732
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 18: a violent sex act involving her boyfriend Adrian Atwater and

733
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 18: his former mate Paul Maras. The pair was charged at

734
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 18: the time, and those charges were later dropped, and a

735
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 18: DPP again refused to charge the pair in twenty fourteen

736
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 18: despite recommendations by the State coroner.

737
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: The case of Lynette Daily is a powerful reminder of

738
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 1: the fallibility of a Prosecution Service. Coincidentally, the Lismore office

739
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: of the DPP was involved in considering whether there should

740
00:47:57,560 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 1: be a prosecution of two men over the US Indigenous

741
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,960
Speaker 1: woman's death on a remote beach in twenty eleven. Her

742
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: vagina had been horrifically mutilated by two men in a

743
00:48:09,239 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 1: sustained sexual assault. Prosecutors repeatedly told her family and friends

744
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 1: that those men would not be prosecuted. The then New

745
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 1: South Wales State Coroner, Michael Barnes ran an inquest and

746
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:27,760
Speaker 1: he recommended criminal charges, but that recommendation made no difference.

747
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: Journalists from the Daily Telegraph newspaper in Sydney and at

748
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 1: the ABC campaigned there were remarkable revelations in their stories

749
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 1: about the strength of the evidence. Members of the public

750
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 1: and the legal community were rightly outraged by the circumstances. Eventually,

751
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 1: the then Director of Public Prosecutions, Lloyd Babb, agreed to

752
00:48:51,920 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 1: get an external legal opinion from a leading criminal lawyer,

753
00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:02,320
Speaker 1: and that opinion recommended a prosecution trial was therefore unavoidable.

754
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:06,759
Speaker 6: There were jubilant scenes outside court today after two men

755
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 6: were jailed over the manslaughter and sexual assault.

756
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 1: Of mother Lynnette Daily.

757
00:49:11,560 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 8: The center thing comes more than six years after her

758
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,319
Speaker 8: Australian Day death during a camping trip on the New

759
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:18,840
Speaker 8: South Wales North Coast.

760
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:22,479
Speaker 18: Family and friends of the mother of seven hugged and

761
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 18: cried after hearing that the two men responsible for Lynette's

762
00:49:25,920 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 18: death and now behind bars at water was sentenced to

763
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 18: at least fourteen years and three months, while Maris was

764
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 18: locked up for a minimum of six years and nine months.

765
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 2: I'm very relieved March Plumbing for what we got Pagan

766
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 2: that long.

767
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:46,960
Speaker 1: At least we got it done there.

768
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:49,840
Speaker 18: The pair tried to cover up their crime, and the

769
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:52,799
Speaker 18: court heard Lynette's life could have been saved if the

770
00:49:52,800 --> 00:49:55,280
Speaker 18: men had called an ambulance hours earlier.

771
00:49:56,719 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: In September twenty seventeen, after listening to weeks of evidence

772
00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: in the Supreme Court sitting in Coff's Harbor, the jurors

773
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: in that trial took just thirty two minutes to return

774
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 1: with guilty verdicts for Lynnette's two attackers. Mister Bab had

775
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:18,319
Speaker 1: persistently refused a prosecution until public concern led to him

776
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 1: getting an external opinion. He issued this statement soon afterwards.

777
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,160
Speaker 1: These are his words, it's not his voice.

778
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 7: The question of whether there are reasonable prospects of conviction

779
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 7: is a predictive exercise and one about which reasonable minds

780
00:50:34,520 --> 00:50:38,080
Speaker 7: can differ. The case is now proceeded through the criminal

781
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:43,320
Speaker 7: justice system. Today I publicly apologized to miss Daily, family

782
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,280
Speaker 7: and the community for the delay.

783
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:51,560
Speaker 1: Busy and under resourced prosecution services do an extraordinary job

784
00:50:51,640 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: in the overwhelming majority of cases, and we no doubt

785
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:59,480
Speaker 1: never hear about most of those. Prosecutors are owed a

786
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:01,960
Speaker 1: debt of grid attitude by the general public for the

787
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:05,920
Speaker 1: stressful work they do. But in just the two cases

788
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 1: in which you have heard about here of Lynn Simms

789
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: formerly Lynn Dawson, and of Lynette Daily, top prosecutors were

790
00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:19,440
Speaker 1: strongly opposed to taking those matters to trial until public

791
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: concern and public interest journalism contributed to a thorough reconsideration

792
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 1: of the cases and then criminal trials. We know the

793
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 1: results guilty. All of this begs the unavoidable question, what

794
00:51:35,160 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 1: about all the cases in which there are victims of

795
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:42,439
Speaker 1: murders or serious violent and sexual assaults where there are

796
00:51:42,480 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 1: no prosecutions and then no investigations by journalists and no

797
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:52,359
Speaker 1: campaigning by loved ones fanning public concern. Those victims and

798
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 1: their cases are the forgotten ones? With no external oversight

799
00:51:57,360 --> 00:52:23,720
Speaker 1: of the Office of the DPP's decision making. It's time

800
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 1: now to say thank you and a bit more than

801
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 1: that to two very talented women who have been a

802
00:52:29,239 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 1: great help in the Bromwin Podcast investigation. Mattie, you've got

803
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 1: some news for us.

804
00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:41,000
Speaker 19: Yeah, I am essentially working my way into becoming a

805
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,359
Speaker 19: sworn officer with the new South Wales Police Force. In

806
00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 19: the near future, I will be doing general duties with

807
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:50,160
Speaker 19: the police and then I will go on to doing

808
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:51,359
Speaker 19: crimes in investigation.

809
00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 1: Congratulations, We're really proud of you. Listeners will recall that

810
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 1: Maddie Walsh is a university graduate in fore with a

811
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:05,120
Speaker 1: special interest in crime scene investigation. We met for the

812
00:53:05,160 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 1: first time at her Auntie Megan's house on Sydney's Northern

813
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: Beaches in late twenty twenty three. As we sat at

814
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:16,240
Speaker 1: a dining table strewn with hundreds of documents from Bromwin's case,

815
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 1: Maddie was organizing files of evidence and reading dozens of

816
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:25,040
Speaker 1: witness statements. She was resourceful and keen to help in

817
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 1: the Bromwin Podcast long before the first episode. We have

818
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,560
Speaker 1: all benefited from Maddie's connection to the case and to

819
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: this series since that meeting, but unfortunately it's going to

820
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 1: change soon. In the not too distant future, you will

821
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:46,840
Speaker 1: be known as Probationary Constable Maddie Walsh right crazy. You

822
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 1: probably won't be able to talk to us in the

823
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 1: podcast because the new South Wales Police Force don't allow

824
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 1: police officers to speak freely to the media, and that's understandable.

825
00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:58,440
Speaker 1: How do you feel about that?

826
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,399
Speaker 19: I understand and that completely, So of course I'm going

827
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 19: to follow the rules. I will be a police officer

828
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 19: and I will do what is expected of me. But

829
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,320
Speaker 19: I am still Bromwin's second cousin, so I will still

830
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:11,760
Speaker 19: follow very closely along.

831
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 1: We'll keep you in the loop. Has your time working

832
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 1: with me on the podcast helped you get this role

833
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 1: or hindered it?

834
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:21,320
Speaker 5: Oh?

835
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 1: Helped.

836
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,400
Speaker 19: I've learned so much just in this past year, and

837
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 19: I think I definitely grew and matured a lot. I

838
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 19: love forensics, that's my true passion. I interviewed for it

839
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:35,520
Speaker 19: and I got it, and I'm so grateful and happy

840
00:54:35,560 --> 00:54:38,640
Speaker 19: that I had the podcast because it really helped me.

841
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 19: I'm also so grateful to you have been a part

842
00:54:42,040 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 19: of Bromwyn's story and helping it be heard all over

843
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,839
Speaker 19: the world. I've loved every second. Well, maybe not every well,

844
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 19: there have been a few minutes that I've You've.

845
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 1: Had terrific questions as well as helped me navigate some

846
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 1: of the difficulties in the wider family. One of the

847
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:05,280
Speaker 1: great things about true crime podcasting involving investigations into long

848
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:09,280
Speaker 1: unsolved cold cases is that you can see the potential

849
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,320
Speaker 1: for them to be solved, and for you going into

850
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 1: the police force with the experience and seeing how we've

851
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 1: uncovered old, new evidence that wasn't known before. I hope

852
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:26,520
Speaker 1: that it gives you confidence when you start investigating some

853
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:29,640
Speaker 1: of these cases as a police officer and as a scientist,

854
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: that they're not doomed to fail. They can be solved.

855
00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 19: I've realized through this podcast how important the initial investigation

856
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:41,439
Speaker 19: is and how many things you can collect, and how

857
00:55:41,480 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 19: that can really impact what happens with every single case

858
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,840
Speaker 19: I'm involved in. I really take the time to notice

859
00:55:48,840 --> 00:55:53,040
Speaker 19: in document and be aware and observe what is going

860
00:55:53,080 --> 00:55:55,600
Speaker 19: on and the important things not to miss, and to

861
00:55:55,640 --> 00:55:59,240
Speaker 19: make sure that there are less cases left for thirty

862
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:00,759
Speaker 19: two years unsolved.

863
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:06,840
Speaker 1: Karina Burger's voice will be familiar to listeners to Karina,

864
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:08,320
Speaker 1: Welcome to our team.

865
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:09,959
Speaker 10: Thanks Hedley. It's great to be here.

866
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:14,479
Speaker 1: You started emailing me this time last year, so about

867
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:19,000
Speaker 1: twelve months ago, reaching out offering to help, and when

868
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 1: we met, we realized that there were some things that

869
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:23,840
Speaker 1: you would be able to help with on a voluntary basis,

870
00:56:23,920 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 1: and you did such a great job with that. And

871
00:56:25,960 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 1: listener's got to know you through several episodes of the podcast.

872
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 1: And now you're formerly working for us and you're involved

873
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,680
Speaker 1: in a new investigation that we'll have more to talk about,

874
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:40,240
Speaker 1: and you're still working on Bromwin. How quickly that's happened.

875
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,160
Speaker 10: It's great to be here and helping you and helping

876
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:46,279
Speaker 10: more families and hopefully making a really big difference in

877
00:56:46,320 --> 00:56:49,640
Speaker 10: some of these cold cases after the volunteer work. It's

878
00:56:49,800 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 10: really a dream come true for me sitting in this

879
00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 10: chair and an official capacity.

880
00:56:53,920 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 1: I'm really looking forward to picking your brain and finding

881
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:01,560
Speaker 1: new evidence in cases from Bromwin's two future episodes of

882
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:06,279
Speaker 1: other podcasts that we do. Just before joining us. Recently,

883
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:10,040
Speaker 1: in her new role at the Australian, Karina was working

884
00:57:10,120 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: in the Australian Capital Territories Coroner's Court as the executive director,

885
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:19,720
Speaker 1: dealing with historical and recent deaths in the nation's capital,

886
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:22,040
Speaker 1: Canberra and across the ACT.

887
00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:25,760
Speaker 10: I was working with a very dedicated team of people,

888
00:57:26,120 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 10: their lawyers and non lawyers, to help progress those matters

889
00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:31,800
Speaker 10: through the coronial process.

890
00:57:32,480 --> 00:57:35,760
Speaker 1: You're not a journalist, but you're a highly trained lawyer

891
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:40,720
Speaker 1: who's dealt with coronial investigations. Why do you think you've

892
00:57:40,760 --> 00:57:45,160
Speaker 1: become so attracted to podcast investigations into cold cases?

893
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:50,120
Speaker 10: Well, I think they really challenged me intellectually. I love

894
00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 10: listening to the evidence, mulling it over, thinking about angles

895
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:56,600
Speaker 10: and options and what might have not been picked up

896
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 10: so far. And then obviously there's the human element too.

897
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 10: I really feel for families like ron Wins who don't

898
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:09,120
Speaker 10: have answers after all this time, and being able to

899
00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:13,280
Speaker 10: potentially make a difference and help bring new witnesses forward

900
00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:16,640
Speaker 10: find new evidence. It's really motivating for me.

901
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:18,880
Speaker 1: A lot of the time, you and I are on

902
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: exactly the same page with these cases, but when we

903
00:58:21,760 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 1: have a different perspective, it sometimes feels like it's because

904
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:29,600
Speaker 1: I'm using my experience as a journalist and you're relying

905
00:58:29,640 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 1: on yours as a lawyer, and we have different disciplines

906
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:38,160
Speaker 1: and different ideas about storytelling, and there's a healthy tension there.

907
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 3: Yeah.

908
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:42,520
Speaker 10: I think it's an interesting position to be in because

909
00:58:42,560 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 10: we do often, like you said, a line in our views,

910
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 10: but occasionally we come at it from different angles and

911
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 10: I perhaps I am a little more risk averse than you.

912
00:58:55,160 --> 00:58:58,240
Speaker 10: I think that's really quite a healthy thing. We can

913
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:03,040
Speaker 10: have these really frank debates about strategic issues or what

914
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 10: to include in an episode and what not to include,

915
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 10: and I think that that's important to be able to

916
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 10: share the background that we both have and come up

917
00:59:12,080 --> 00:59:15,680
Speaker 10: with the best story going forwards for our listeners, and

918
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:18,720
Speaker 10: also make decisions that are really good for the case

919
00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 10: in question.

920
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,000
Speaker 1: I agree, and I'm so glad that you've joined us,

921
00:59:23,560 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 1: even though we're sad that we're losing our favorite diva.

922
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:30,479
Speaker 1: Many Welshy thank you for joining us. Please see more

923
00:59:30,520 --> 00:59:49,120
Speaker 1: at bronwynpodcast dot com. Bronwyn is written and investigated by

924
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:52,880
Speaker 1: me Headley Thomas as a podcast production for The Australian.

925
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 1: If anyone has information which may help solve this cold case,

926
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 1: please contact me confiding by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian

927
01:00:04,200 --> 01:00:08,160
Speaker 1: dot com dot au. You can read more about this

928
01:00:08,360 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 1: case and see a range of photographs and other artwork

929
01:00:12,240 --> 01:00:17,560
Speaker 1: at the website Bromwyn Podcast dot com. Our subscribers and

930
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:23,080
Speaker 1: registered users here episodes first. The production and editorial team

931
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:28,280
Speaker 1: for bromwin includes Claire Harvey, Kristin Amiet, Joshua Burton, Bridget,

932
01:00:28,320 --> 01:00:34,000
Speaker 1: Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns, Liam Mendez, Sean Callen

933
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:38,240
Speaker 1: and Matthew Condon, Karina Verger and David Murray, with assistance

934
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:42,440
Speaker 1: from Isaac Iron's. Audio production for this podcast series is

935
01:00:42,480 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 1: by Wasabi Audio and original theme music by Slade Gibson.

936
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 1: We have been assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of

937
01:00:50,880 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 1: Bromwyn Winfield. We can only do this kind of journalism

938
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:58,720
Speaker 1: with the support of our subscribers and our major sponsors

939
01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:03,600
Speaker 1: like Harvey Norman. For all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps,

940
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 1: timelines and documents about this podcast and other podcasts including

941
01:01:08,600 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 1: The Teacher's Pet, The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story,

942
01:01:13,320 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 1: Shandy's Legacy and The Night Driver, go to the Australian

943
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 1: dot com dot au and subscribe