WEBVTT - "Pablo Escobar had a bounty on my head": Steve Murphy Pt.2

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective see aside of life the average person is never

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<v Speaker 1>exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world.

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<v Speaker 1>In the second part of my chat with former DA

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<v Speaker 1>agent Steve Murphy, we talk about how Pablo Escobar was

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<v Speaker 1>tracked down and killed in a violent shoetout. We talk

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<v Speaker 1>about the impact the investigation had on Steve and his

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<v Speaker 1>partner Javier, and the Columbian police who put their lives

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<v Speaker 1>on the line to restore peace to their country. We

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<v Speaker 1>also talk about his experience in the investigation being portrayed

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<v Speaker 1>in the hugely popular TV series Narcos. It's a fascinating chat. Steve,

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<v Speaker 1>welcome back to part two. If I catch killers. Thank you,

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<v Speaker 1>Let's continue this wild story. And yeah, no wonder they

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<v Speaker 1>made a TV series out of this investigation, and we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to talk about Narcos TV series and it's a

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<v Speaker 1>great series, I've got to say on Netflix. But before

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<v Speaker 1>we do, there's a bit of work to do before

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<v Speaker 1>you start swamping round as the person that's portrayed on

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<v Speaker 1>the TV series we've talked about Pablo Escobar, is there

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<v Speaker 1>one thing that defines him, like how ruthless he was?

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<v Speaker 1>You talk in part one that he didn't have a

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<v Speaker 1>conscience and that he could just kill without a second thought.

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<v Speaker 1>Is there one thing that demonstrates to the listeners what

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<v Speaker 1>was the evilness or something that typified the evilness of

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<v Speaker 1>the man.

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<v Speaker 2>He was in his prison, this custom built prison, the cathedral,

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<v Speaker 2>and they're actually he's on the phone with his wife

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<v Speaker 2>talking and we're, you know, we're intercepting the phone calls,

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<v Speaker 2>and he's talking about how much he loves her and

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<v Speaker 2>how much he misses her and how are the kids

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<v Speaker 2>and all that, and in the background you can hear

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<v Speaker 2>a guy screaming he's being tortured, you know, and eventually

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<v Speaker 2>his wife said, what is that noise? And he's like,

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<v Speaker 2>hold on a minute. He covers up the you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I assume he cover up the receiver, and you can

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<v Speaker 2>hear him say cover his mouth, shut him up, and

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<v Speaker 2>then he gets real quiet, so you know, they killed

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<v Speaker 2>the guy. And then he's just right back on a yeah. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I'll come and see you guys soon, and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, you guys have to come to visit me,

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<v Speaker 2>and just you know, like nothing happened.

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<v Speaker 1>Just that set no conscience whatsoever.

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<v Speaker 2>The indiscriminate car bombs that were just he set a

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<v Speaker 2>car bomb off on fifteenth Street in Bogata one time,

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<v Speaker 2>in the northern part of the city. And right where

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<v Speaker 2>that bomb went off as a mall and it was

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<v Speaker 2>the whole the size of a city block, and the

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<v Speaker 2>whole front of the mall was glass. So when that

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<v Speaker 2>bomb went off, you know what happened to the glass.

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<v Speaker 2>It happened to be a time when moms were there

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<v Speaker 2>with their school aged children getting school supplies. So Homy

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<v Speaker 2>and I we were spawn down there. We get a

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<v Speaker 2>phone call about it, We take off and go down there,

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<v Speaker 2>you can't get very close. You can see the black

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<v Speaker 2>smoke from where the bomb went off, but you can't

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<v Speaker 2>get very close because traffic just bogs down. So we

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<v Speaker 2>park and we get out, and we were walking in

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<v Speaker 2>and as you get closer, you start hearing the sounds

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<v Speaker 2>associated with tragedy, you know, the screams and the crying

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<v Speaker 2>and the begging and all that kind of stuff. And

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<v Speaker 2>then you get closer and you actually start seeing body

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<v Speaker 2>parts laying around. And then you get up to the

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<v Speaker 2>scene and you see the firemen and the police officers

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<v Speaker 2>carrying the lifeless bodies of little children who just simply

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<v Speaker 2>were in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's

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<v Speaker 2>probably the most horrific thing I saw while we were

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<v Speaker 2>down there. Just it's there's there's no way you can

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<v Speaker 2>justify something like that.

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<v Speaker 1>That's the results of these actions. What were the circumstances

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<v Speaker 1>with the luxury self designed prison that he was resulting in?

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<v Speaker 1>What were the circumstances of him escaping from the How

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<v Speaker 1>did that come about?

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<v Speaker 2>We got this from an individual who eventually became an

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<v Speaker 2>informative ours and eventually became of the biggest drug dealer

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<v Speaker 2>in Columbia, And who is in prison here in the

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<v Speaker 2>United States now. So he was the bodyguard for one

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<v Speaker 2>of Pablo's childhood friends, a guy named Kiko Mankada. Qiko

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<v Speaker 2>and Pablo grew up together. He was one of the

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<v Speaker 2>primary lieutenants. And there was another guy named Fernando Galliano. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>when Pablo went into prison, he imposed attacks or war

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<v Speaker 2>tax on all the other drug draftickers, and he said,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, look, I've fronted myself out for the good

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<v Speaker 2>of all of you. I've embarrassed myself. I'm in prison now,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, country club prison. He said, So what's going

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<v Speaker 2>to happ happen is every load that you send up,

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<v Speaker 2>I get half of it, or you pay me four

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<v Speaker 2>hundred thousand dollars cash. Okay. So then they were doing

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<v Speaker 2>it well. After a while they got tired of doing it. Well.

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<v Speaker 2>One day hits the carrios going out and they find

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<v Speaker 2>a cave that there's this money US dollars that have

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<v Speaker 2>been shrink wrapped and hidden in a cave, and the

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<v Speaker 2>shrink wrap has come loose, and so air and moisture

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<v Speaker 2>has been getting in there, and all this money is

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<v Speaker 2>rotting away. And we've heard this anywhere from ten million

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<v Speaker 2>to twenty three million dollars. So they bring it in.

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<v Speaker 2>They show Pabula like, look, this is Kiko and Fernando's money,

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<v Speaker 2>and they're holding out on you. You know, here you

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<v Speaker 2>are fronting yourself out and you're not making all the

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<v Speaker 2>billions that you were before because you've taken a stance

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<v Speaker 2>against the government. You're trying to do good for everybody else.

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<v Speaker 2>And they get him all fired up. So he has

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<v Speaker 2>somebody make phone calls and they call the Galliano's and

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<v Speaker 2>they call him Moncadas and said, hey, come on up

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<v Speaker 2>to the prison. We're going to have a barbecue. No

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<v Speaker 2>business discussed. We're just gonna have good time. Bring some

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<v Speaker 2>hookers in and we'll have some mariachis. Come men or whatever.

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<v Speaker 2>No need to bring security details. Everything's good. So they

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<v Speaker 2>show up. Well Kiko, according to our source, Kiko comes

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<v Speaker 2>walking in and he sees the money there on the floor,

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<v Speaker 2>and he looks at Pablo and sees a look on

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<v Speaker 2>his face and he starts saying, Pablo, that's not what

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<v Speaker 2>you think it is. We're not holding out on you.

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<v Speaker 2>That's money that's been buried for a long time. Quite honestly,

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<v Speaker 2>we had forgotten about it. And if you think about it.

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<v Speaker 2>For moisture and water to get in there, to start

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<v Speaker 2>writing away paper. That doesn't happen in a few days,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean that takes months and months and months of time.

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<v Speaker 2>So the Cicarios are egging Pablo on he he cheated you, Pablo,

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<v Speaker 2>kill him. You need to kill these two, and so

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<v Speaker 2>eventually they go back and forth, and Pablo gets so

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<v Speaker 2>incensed that he grabs a stick and he kills his

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<v Speaker 2>childhood best friend, Kiko Moncada, beats him to death. Then

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<v Speaker 2>the Ccarios they jump on Fernando Galliano. They do the

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<v Speaker 2>same to him. Then they started cutting parts of their

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<v Speaker 2>bodies off and sending them to their families and saying,

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<v Speaker 2>you owe me this, You owe me that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and if you want, everyone want to see him again,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is what you got to do. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>the families didn't know they were already dead. Well, eventually

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<v Speaker 2>word got out to us about it through this informant,

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<v Speaker 2>and we went to our bosses and the ambassador, and

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<v Speaker 2>eventually it went to the President of Columbia, and the

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<v Speaker 2>message was do something about this. This is ridiculous. This

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<v Speaker 2>is embarrassing to your country. It's embarrassing to your administration,

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<v Speaker 2>you've got to do something. So they come up with

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<v Speaker 2>an idea that they're going to tell Pablo, Okay, we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to temporarily move you to a different prison so

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<v Speaker 2>we can reinforce your prison to make it more secure

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<v Speaker 2>for you. And it's all a ruse. Well, they send

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<v Speaker 2>the deputy Justice minister up there. This kid, Mendoza is

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<v Speaker 2>like twenty five years old. He goes up with a

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<v Speaker 2>Columbian colonel, military colonel to take like twenty troops up there.

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<v Speaker 2>Get to the gate outside. Now, remember who's paying the

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<v Speaker 2>guards on inside the gate, So they're not.

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<v Speaker 1>Loyal to the guts, they loyalty.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So the deputy Justice miner looks over the colonel says, colonel,

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<v Speaker 2>go get him. Or el said, resident, tell me, he

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<v Speaker 2>didn't tell me to go in there. He told you

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<v Speaker 2>to go, and I'm not going in there. You go

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<v Speaker 2>get him. So this young guy twenty five years old

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<v Speaker 2>goes in there. Well, of course the Sagario is immediately

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<v Speaker 2>taking hostage and they're slapping him around and they're trying

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<v Speaker 2>to get Pablo Pablo kill him. This is the message

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<v Speaker 2>from the president, they don't respect you and all that stuff. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>Pablo tells the Justice minister, get the president on the phone. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>he's calling. Before the president would take Pablo's calls, believe

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<v Speaker 2>it or not, but this time nobody's answering the phone.

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<v Speaker 2>So Pablo kind of sees the writing on the ball.

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<v Speaker 2>They realize that they don't have enough troops up there

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<v Speaker 2>to assault the prison, so now they send an elite

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<v Speaker 2>group of military folks called the Copas, and they go

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<v Speaker 2>in and they assault the prison, big firefight. Not a

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<v Speaker 2>single good guy was wounded that day, believe it or not.

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<v Speaker 2>And the deputy Justice Minister, they were able to get

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<v Speaker 2>him out unscathed, which is just a miracle. Some of

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<v Speaker 2>the guards were killed, Pablo's guards. A lot of cacarios

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<v Speaker 2>were able to escape, not all of them. Some of

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<v Speaker 2>them chose to stay in the prison. So recently, Jama

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<v Speaker 2>had done some work for one of the Spanish speaking

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<v Speaker 2>stations down to Columbia about the Escobar story, and in exchange,

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<v Speaker 2>they had access to these photographs. So the press had

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<v Speaker 2>shown up at the prison because you know, the words

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<v Speaker 2>out that something's going on up there at the cathedral,

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<v Speaker 2>and this one photographer he got up there, he saw everybody,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, all the other presses there, worldwide press, and

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<v Speaker 2>so he goes around and he somehow knows how to

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<v Speaker 2>get around to the backside of the prison and he's

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<v Speaker 2>walking in and here comes Pablo and some of his

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<v Speaker 2>henchmen and the guy the story is the cameraman. He

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<v Speaker 2>laid his cameras down and put his hands up. He says, Pablo, Pablo,

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<v Speaker 2>please don't kill me. You know, I went to this

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<v Speaker 2>front gate. My producers told me to go get pictures.

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<v Speaker 2>It's crowded up there. I thought I'd just come around

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<v Speaker 2>and see what's happening. Prob washed to get your camera,

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<v Speaker 2>take your camera and take pictures of me. I'm a

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<v Speaker 2>dead man walking, so that camera and held onto those pictures.

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<v Speaker 2>He died recently and his family gave him to this.

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<v Speaker 2>I think he was a Univision Univision and so because

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<v Speaker 2>of the work Hobbier had done with them, they gave

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<v Speaker 2>us license to use these pictures. So we now have

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<v Speaker 2>three photographs that this camera took of Pablo, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's four of his henchmen making their escape, and

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<v Speaker 2>you can see some of them have guns, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>pistols tucked in their waistband. It's not like they're running,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, scared, they're just they're just getting away. Well,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I'm always I've always wondered if you know

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<v Speaker 2>there wasn't some green passed hands along the way, because

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<v Speaker 2>how do you escape from the prison surrounded? How do

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<v Speaker 2>you escape?

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<v Speaker 1>And if you've got an elite team coming in and

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<v Speaker 1>taking the Zakarias out, how they go to why? But well,

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<v Speaker 1>it's yeah, if it didn't happen, you have to invent it.

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<v Speaker 1>It's crazy. He he gets out that. So the tuns

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<v Speaker 1>you your world upside down for the next eighteen months

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<v Speaker 1>because you and Javier are asked to be stationed down

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<v Speaker 1>in Medeleine, and you worked with a lot of different sections,

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<v Speaker 1>and I know you pay a lot of tribute to

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<v Speaker 1>the Colombian National Police absolutely, and the courage of those

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<v Speaker 1>guys and the search block. This is a quote from

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<v Speaker 1>your book when he was on the run, just to

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<v Speaker 1>give you a sense of what happened after he escaped.

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<v Speaker 1>Between the twenty second of July nineteen ninety two, when

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<v Speaker 1>Escobar escaped and mid March nineteen ninety three, one hundred

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<v Speaker 1>and thirty six police officers had been killed in the

0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:37.920
<v Speaker 1>line of duty by Escobar's hitmen. So that's one hundred

0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:40.920
<v Speaker 1>and thirty six police I'm talking about. The death tolls

0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:44.120
<v Speaker 1>throughout the country had also increased. Columbia had seen it

0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:47.960
<v Speaker 1>steadly this year, with nearly twenty nine thousand homicides reported

0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:51.840
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen ninety two, compared to twenty five thy one

0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:55.560
<v Speaker 1>hundred and ten for the previous year. In Medelline and Bogata,

0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:58.640
<v Speaker 1>one hundred and twelve Savilians had died from random car

0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:01.640
<v Speaker 1>bomb attacks and four hundred twenty seven had been injured.

0:12:02.600 --> 0:12:05.720
<v Speaker 1>It's just on the sky that's hired to comprehend, and

0:12:05.760 --> 0:12:08.199
<v Speaker 1>that that's in that passage of time when he was

0:12:08.240 --> 0:12:10.800
<v Speaker 1>on the run, when you guys were part of the team,

0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.280
<v Speaker 1>uh tas we're tracking him down.

0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:15.640
<v Speaker 2>It was it's it's I mean, I'm sure it's the

0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:18.480
<v Speaker 2>same in Australia. If an Australian police officer is killed

0:12:18.520 --> 0:12:20.920
<v Speaker 2>in the line of duty. Here in the United States,

0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.079
<v Speaker 2>we stop everything. Everybody stops to contribute to the case

0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:26.839
<v Speaker 2>to get that guy. When here you're talking about over

0:12:26.840 --> 0:12:29.200
<v Speaker 2>one hundred and thirty police officers and what about a

0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:33.080
<v Speaker 2>six or seven month period were murdered. Pablo put a

0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:36.040
<v Speaker 2>bounty on him of one hundred dollars each. I mean,

0:12:36.080 --> 0:12:38.560
<v Speaker 2>that was a police officer's life was one hundred bucks.

0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:40.040
<v Speaker 2>It's ridiculous.

0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:43.199
<v Speaker 1>And that was that was just anyone could collect that bounty.

0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:45.560
<v Speaker 1>Just take take out a call there was.

0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:49.560
<v Speaker 2>Javier was with We worked with a very elite unit

0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:53.079
<v Speaker 2>of Plumbing National Police officers and they got to call

0:12:53.120 --> 0:12:54.720
<v Speaker 2>one night that one of the sacarios was at this

0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.280
<v Speaker 2>nightclub and they didn't have enough body. So Hovier went

0:12:57.280 --> 0:13:01.240
<v Speaker 2>along with them and h this kid's fifteen years old.

0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:03.760
<v Speaker 2>He's out on the dance floor with his girlfriend. They

0:13:03.760 --> 0:13:05.640
<v Speaker 2>go out and grab He's got a gun in his waistband.

0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:07.760
<v Speaker 2>They wrestle him, he fights, They get him down the floor,

0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:09.960
<v Speaker 2>get him cuffed up, and take him out. Well, this

0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.439
<v Speaker 2>kid talks, you know, he doesn't know he's not supposed

0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:15.319
<v Speaker 2>to talk. He said, he had already killed I think

0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.720
<v Speaker 2>it was something like ten police officers. And how you're asking,

0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:20.640
<v Speaker 2>he said, how do you do this? He said, Well,

0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:23.160
<v Speaker 2>you just you know, these uniform guys they're walking the

0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:25.440
<v Speaker 2>streets and they stop and talk to each other or

0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:26.959
<v Speaker 2>stop to talk to people in the street, and you

0:13:27.080 --> 0:13:28.480
<v Speaker 2>just walk up behind him and shoot him in the

0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:31.120
<v Speaker 2>back of the head. He said, the most I've killed

0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:33.400
<v Speaker 2>him one day was three and then you go to

0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:35.880
<v Speaker 2>an address and you tell him, and you know, they

0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:38.160
<v Speaker 2>give you one hundred dollars for each cop that you've killed.

0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:40.040
<v Speaker 2>And HWY said, what do you do with the money?

0:13:40.080 --> 0:13:41.520
<v Speaker 2>He said, well, most of it I give to my

0:13:41.600 --> 0:13:44.120
<v Speaker 2>mom because she had you know, she was one of

0:13:44.120 --> 0:13:45.880
<v Speaker 2>those people living on the edge of a trash dump.

0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:48.880
<v Speaker 2>And he said, I keep enough money for myself. I

0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:51.679
<v Speaker 2>don't have a nice pair of tennis shoes, nice pair

0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:53.880
<v Speaker 2>of jeans, and I need beer money. But everything else,

0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:58.120
<v Speaker 2>she gets everything else. And I thought, just no remorse whatsoever.

0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:01.760
<v Speaker 2>But or a woman that's brave enough to put a

0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:05.000
<v Speaker 2>uniform on and your life is worth one hundred dollars.

0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:09.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I know you guys had a lot of respect

0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:13.880
<v Speaker 1>for the courage that they had. What about yourself and Javier,

0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:18.720
<v Speaker 1>like I read somewhere or that you had a bounty

0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:22.560
<v Speaker 1>on you for three hundred thousand with the greatest respect,

0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:26.520
<v Speaker 1>you would sort of stand out in Columbia and people

0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:30.440
<v Speaker 1>would know who you are. So how how did you

0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:32.360
<v Speaker 1>feel with what was going on?

0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:38.080
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, I mean, we're cops. You don't show fear,

0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:40.360
<v Speaker 2>but you know, when you first find out about it,

0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:42.440
<v Speaker 2>it's like, that's all I'm worthing more than three hundred

0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:46.720
<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars. But the truth is, it's very disconcerting to

0:14:46.760 --> 0:14:49.440
<v Speaker 2>start with. It's like, holy cow, this guy's got a

0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:53.040
<v Speaker 2>bounty on me. And you're right. I mean, my family,

0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:57.120
<v Speaker 2>my grandmother immigrated from England. My dad's family immigrated from Ireland.

0:14:57.160 --> 0:14:59.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm about as white as you get. I don't blend

0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.640
<v Speaker 2>into it Hispanic country. You know. I'm six to two,

0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:04.720
<v Speaker 2>I have light colored eyes. I used to have brown

0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:07.080
<v Speaker 2>colored hair. I just kind of stick out.

0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.240
<v Speaker 1>But the gring Gay and that they would have known

0:15:10.280 --> 0:15:12.680
<v Speaker 1>that you guys would like the intel and you couldn't

0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:17.080
<v Speaker 1>trust everyone that was involved in the investigation, so they

0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:20.320
<v Speaker 1>would have very much known who you guys were.

0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:24.560
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, I mean, we were going out on so back

0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:29.120
<v Speaker 2>of a second, the embassy told us, the ambassadors, I

0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:30.800
<v Speaker 2>don't want you guys going out in the field. You

0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.720
<v Speaker 2>stay at the police base. Well that's we can't do

0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:35.880
<v Speaker 2>our job if we do stay beneck in the back.

0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:39.200
<v Speaker 2>And you know, we had we had the US Navy

0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:40.960
<v Speaker 2>Seal Team six was there with us. We had the

0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.760
<v Speaker 2>US Armies Delta FORCET. They were there with us. Of course,

0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:45.920
<v Speaker 2>the CIA's in there. They're coming and going as they want.

0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:49.840
<v Speaker 2>The military guys or under the same orders as us. Well,

0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:53.040
<v Speaker 2>they're military, so they follow orders. We kind of looked

0:15:53.080 --> 0:15:56.160
<v Speaker 2>at them as strong suggestions instead of orders. And so

0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, just just to match, You're still on the

0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.640
<v Speaker 2>job there and in uh Australia, and I come to

0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.520
<v Speaker 2>your country, and I tell you, Gary, I heard there's

0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:07.760
<v Speaker 2>Pablo Escobars down there at the pub. Man, go see

0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:08.960
<v Speaker 2>if he's down there. I'm gonna get a couple of

0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:10.440
<v Speaker 2>coffee and come back and tell me what you find.

0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:13.320
<v Speaker 2>What are you gonna tell me? I know what you're

0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:14.080
<v Speaker 2>gonna tell me that.

0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:18.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, one, I understand, but I like the way it's

0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:21.200
<v Speaker 1>just a suggestion that wasn't an order. But I'm sorry,

0:16:21.240 --> 0:16:22.080
<v Speaker 1>I'm misunderstood.

0:16:22.520 --> 0:16:24.680
<v Speaker 2>But uh well, But but what that led to is

0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:27.040
<v Speaker 2>we were going out on operations every day with with

0:16:27.120 --> 0:16:29.280
<v Speaker 2>this unit that we worked with Dehean was the name

0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:31.640
<v Speaker 2>of the unit. And we're going out on the Huey

0:16:31.680 --> 0:16:35.280
<v Speaker 2>gunships doing raids on ranches, and we're going out and

0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:37.880
<v Speaker 2>doing patrols in the mountains with the Columbia National Police

0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.920
<v Speaker 2>and we're doing surveillance in the city, and we're paying

0:16:40.960 --> 0:16:43.560
<v Speaker 2>informants and we're meeting snitches. We had a one eight

0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.840
<v Speaker 2>hundred tip line set up offering a five million dollar

0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:52.120
<v Speaker 2>reward for information on Pablo. It was it was exciting.

0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:54.600
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's very exciting. There were times, especially if

0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:56.120
<v Speaker 2>we were in the city, they would they had an

0:16:56.200 --> 0:16:59.120
<v Speaker 2>armored personnel carrier, and so if we were doing stuff

0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:01.560
<v Speaker 2>in the city, especially for going over into the barrios

0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:04.760
<v Speaker 2>where Pablo's you know, he's the hero, they would put

0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:06.879
<v Speaker 2>me inside the armored car just to protect me a

0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:08.840
<v Speaker 2>little bit more. But you know, and you had a

0:17:08.880 --> 0:17:12.119
<v Speaker 2>machine gunner on top. And but then when you know,

0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:15.600
<v Speaker 2>when it's trying to clean up my language, when the

0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:18.040
<v Speaker 2>ship hits the fan, you know, you don't run away.

0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:19.120
<v Speaker 2>You got to stand there and fight.

0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.280
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's a big difference from where you started your

0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:26.840
<v Speaker 1>law enforcement a lot. There was a d A agent

0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.680
<v Speaker 1>that was abducted by a cartel in Mexico, and you

0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:32.119
<v Speaker 1>think that played a part that the consequences do you

0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:35.159
<v Speaker 1>want to just explain to the listeners what the circumstances

0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:38.800
<v Speaker 1>of that was. It was a horrific situation, but the

0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:43.240
<v Speaker 1>response is probably, you know, protected people down the track.

0:17:43.280 --> 0:17:45.720
<v Speaker 1>Do you want to explain that those circumstances.

0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:48.080
<v Speaker 2>Gladly Well, that was the case of Kiki or Enrique.

0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:50.960
<v Speaker 2>Kiki came Marina was our agent's name. This is in

0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:53.960
<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty five. He had been stationed. Kiki was a

0:17:53.960 --> 0:17:57.280
<v Speaker 2>former US marine. He'd been a cop in Glexico, California,

0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:01.000
<v Speaker 2>before Dea joined EA, did time down on the border,

0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:04.600
<v Speaker 2>got a volunteer to go to Guandalajara in Mexico. He

0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:08.600
<v Speaker 2>was actually born in Mexico, so he spoke perfect Spanish.

0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:11.280
<v Speaker 2>He's down there. He just kicking button, taking names. You know.

0:18:11.320 --> 0:18:15.119
<v Speaker 2>The problem back then was was these massive marijuana grows,

0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.960
<v Speaker 2>the ones up in the mountains. The quality wasn't as good,

0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:24.520
<v Speaker 2>but the Mexican traffickers learned about sinsimilia, which is something

0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:28.760
<v Speaker 2>that American marijuana growers just developed, and it basically they

0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:31.760
<v Speaker 2>took the seeds out of the plants and it made

0:18:31.800 --> 0:18:35.760
<v Speaker 2>it a much more potent strain of marijuana. So, through

0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:40.199
<v Speaker 2>payoffs and so forth, they bought this desert land and

0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:42.600
<v Speaker 2>they had to drill these massive wells to get water

0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:47.119
<v Speaker 2>because marijuana grows require a lot of water. So Kiki

0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:50.679
<v Speaker 2>gets information through an informant, and at one point the

0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:54.000
<v Speaker 2>government of Mexico would let the United States do flyovers

0:18:54.000 --> 0:18:58.800
<v Speaker 2>looking for marijuana fields or poppy fields because of Mexican heroin. Well,

0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:00.960
<v Speaker 2>a new president comes in and he bans all that.

0:19:01.680 --> 0:19:05.600
<v Speaker 2>So now Kiki's relying on informants, and apparently he had

0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:09.120
<v Speaker 2>the knack for dealing with informants. He has one that's

0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:12.520
<v Speaker 2>a pilot. He gets information where there's this massive marijuana grow.

0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:15.000
<v Speaker 2>I think that one was two hundred acres. They do

0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:18.480
<v Speaker 2>a couple of flyovers which were illegal, and confirmed it

0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:21.119
<v Speaker 2>was there, got the Mexican police to go raid the place,

0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:25.440
<v Speaker 2>and I forget how much it was capable of producing,

0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:30.000
<v Speaker 2>but two hundred acres of marijuana plants just massive. Well,

0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:32.639
<v Speaker 2>then as time goes on, he finds out about this

0:19:32.680 --> 0:19:36.000
<v Speaker 2>other grow. This time it was twenty five hundred acres,

0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:40.600
<v Speaker 2>two five hundred acres, just massive, and they rated that.

0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:43.640
<v Speaker 2>I think they said that that field alone was capable

0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:47.119
<v Speaker 2>of four billion dollars of weed per grow, and I

0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:48.680
<v Speaker 2>think you could grow it at least twice a year

0:19:48.720 --> 0:19:53.040
<v Speaker 2>down there. So that led to him, you know, he

0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.119
<v Speaker 2>was ready to rotate out of Guadala horor back to

0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:59.640
<v Speaker 2>the United States. But these three drug traffickers Raphael carl Countero,

0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Miguel On Hell Felix Gayardo, and the third guy's name

0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:09.600
<v Speaker 2>was Fan Saic I can't remember his full name. Those

0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:12.920
<v Speaker 2>are the three guys that started the Guadara Guadalajara cartel

0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:17.959
<v Speaker 2>in Mexico. So they orchestrated a kidnapp had Kiki came

0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:19.760
<v Speaker 2>out of the consulate in Guadalajarra to go meet his

0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.720
<v Speaker 2>wife for lunch. They surrounding kidnapp him, taking him to

0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:27.240
<v Speaker 2>a house. He's torture for over thirty hours. He's actually

0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:30.840
<v Speaker 2>killed three different times. They've got a doctor there that

0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:32.920
<v Speaker 2>when the first two times when he died, they would

0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:36.359
<v Speaker 2>inject adrenaline into his heart to restart his heart so

0:20:36.359 --> 0:20:39.760
<v Speaker 2>they could kill him again. It's just horrific what they

0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:42.120
<v Speaker 2>did to Kiki. And they also did the same thing

0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:47.240
<v Speaker 2>to the pilot I think his name was Zavala. Then

0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:51.400
<v Speaker 2>you know, of course Dea realizes that Keiki's missing because

0:20:51.400 --> 0:20:53.480
<v Speaker 2>he didn't show up for wife, his lunch with his wife,

0:20:53.520 --> 0:20:55.159
<v Speaker 2>and then he done show Homan that night, and so

0:20:55.240 --> 0:20:59.600
<v Speaker 2>this massive man hunt is underway. The United States starts

0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:04.399
<v Speaker 2>supplying pressure to the Mexican government. Finally they create they

0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:06.800
<v Speaker 2>just designate somebody to be a scapegoat and they kill

0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:08.119
<v Speaker 2>them and throw them out and said, okay, there's the

0:21:08.119 --> 0:21:11.120
<v Speaker 2>guy killed Kiki and the pilot. Well, the United States

0:21:11.200 --> 0:21:14.520
<v Speaker 2>knew that wasn't true. So our president back at the time,

0:21:14.560 --> 0:21:16.560
<v Speaker 2>and I'm not sure we have presidents that have these

0:21:16.640 --> 0:21:19.680
<v Speaker 2>kind of honas now, but the president back then shut

0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:22.480
<v Speaker 2>down the border between the United States and Mexico. It

0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:25.280
<v Speaker 2>took less than one day for the Mexican government come

0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:28.320
<v Speaker 2>back and say, okay, okay, we're back in. I think

0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:31.600
<v Speaker 2>it took thirty days before they finally found Kiki's body.

0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:35.360
<v Speaker 2>Him and the pilot were wrapped up in plastic. Seeing

0:21:35.440 --> 0:21:38.560
<v Speaker 2>that what the response of the United States was, and

0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:40.919
<v Speaker 2>it might be the same now because we have a

0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:45.720
<v Speaker 2>new president. But past administrations would certainly not have gone

0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:49.800
<v Speaker 2>to those links because the d agent was killed. So

0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:52.919
<v Speaker 2>if you think about it, the drug traffickers are in

0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:55.560
<v Speaker 2>business to make money. If you shut down the border,

0:21:55.640 --> 0:21:57.720
<v Speaker 2>they can't get the product into the United States, where

0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:00.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, we're the leading consumer country of ill legal

0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:03.439
<v Speaker 2>narcotics in the world. That's a reputation we truly enjoy having.

0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:08.000
<v Speaker 2>It's outrageous. But they knew that if I mean we

0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:10.560
<v Speaker 2>had wire taps, one wire tap, we're Pablo's talking makes

0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:13.320
<v Speaker 2>reference to the two gringos, and then a short time

0:22:13.400 --> 0:22:16.879
<v Speaker 2>later he actually mentions the name's Penyon Murphy. That was

0:22:16.920 --> 0:22:18.800
<v Speaker 2>worse than finding out there's a three hundred thousand dollars

0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:22.600
<v Speaker 2>bounds in just guys knew your name.

0:22:23.680 --> 0:22:25.640
<v Speaker 1>But then it becomes personal.

0:22:25.840 --> 0:22:29.960
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but you know, so if I think Pablo knew

0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:32.440
<v Speaker 2>that if he really took us out, they could have

0:22:32.520 --> 0:22:35.600
<v Speaker 2>killed us numerous times. I mean that we're out on operations,

0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:39.320
<v Speaker 2>anything could happen. But then you know they're not going

0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:41.280
<v Speaker 2>to make the money that that's what they're in business for.

0:22:41.440 --> 0:22:44.120
<v Speaker 2>So that's why we say Kiki's legacy.

0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:47.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and that's passed on them. I suppose it gives

0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:50.040
<v Speaker 1>a sense that there's going to be a reaction that

0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:54.120
<v Speaker 1>people don't want to coming if something happens to people

0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:56.920
<v Speaker 1>like yourself. I'm glad that so the response was done

0:22:56.960 --> 0:23:02.360
<v Speaker 1>because that's the topic response it's needed, right, So what

0:23:02.400 --> 0:23:06.000
<v Speaker 1>were the strategies got him out of prison? He's creating

0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:08.920
<v Speaker 1>chios and chaos is a nice way of putting the

0:23:08.960 --> 0:23:12.600
<v Speaker 1>horrific situation with people being killed, left, frought and center.

0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:15.800
<v Speaker 1>What were the strategies to bring him down? And the

0:23:15.800 --> 0:23:19.400
<v Speaker 1>people that you're working with to to yeah, find you.

0:23:19.640 --> 0:23:22.880
<v Speaker 2>Well with the IRO ambassador brought in the Seal Team

0:23:22.880 --> 0:23:26.439
<v Speaker 2>Sex and the Delta Force guys, the operators, these the

0:23:26.480 --> 0:23:29.120
<v Speaker 2>Delton Seals guys. They brought in assets that we didn't

0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:32.720
<v Speaker 2>have access to, so they were able to glean intelligence

0:23:34.080 --> 0:23:37.680
<v Speaker 2>that we were getting real time intelligence that hey, Pablo's here,

0:23:37.680 --> 0:23:39.760
<v Speaker 2>Pablo's there. And this is in the first few weeks.

0:23:40.520 --> 0:23:44.600
<v Speaker 2>I remember we went to a huge church and just

0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:46.159
<v Speaker 2>searched that in the middle of the night when we

0:23:46.200 --> 0:23:48.280
<v Speaker 2>finally we were able to get out, get some troops

0:23:48.280 --> 0:23:52.000
<v Speaker 2>to go and and just you know, we searched for

0:23:52.000 --> 0:23:55.159
<v Speaker 2>a couple of hours, couldn't find a thing. And you know,

0:23:55.240 --> 0:23:58.920
<v Speaker 2>the the lower ranking Columbian officers or they're getting tired

0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:00.520
<v Speaker 2>and they were just want to go back to the

0:24:00.520 --> 0:24:03.760
<v Speaker 2>barracks and sleep and and I'm not wanting to leave.

0:24:03.920 --> 0:24:05.840
<v Speaker 2>And Taivea is the same way. We got to keep going,

0:24:05.840 --> 0:24:08.720
<v Speaker 2>got to keep going, got to keep going, and eventually,

0:24:08.840 --> 0:24:10.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, the commander of the unit comes over and

0:24:10.480 --> 0:24:13.600
<v Speaker 2>he's like, look, but we're going, we're going. We can't

0:24:13.600 --> 0:24:16.360
<v Speaker 2>find it. He's not here, and it's it just over

0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:19.320
<v Speaker 2>and over. There was times when we hit one cabin

0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:22.520
<v Speaker 2>and the coffee was still warm in the mug, there

0:24:22.560 --> 0:24:26.199
<v Speaker 2>was a cigarette and the ashtray still burning, you know.

0:24:26.359 --> 0:24:30.159
<v Speaker 2>And Pop Poplo was known he liked. He had it

0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:33.600
<v Speaker 2>this fetish for fancy bathrooms, you know, gold plated fixtures

0:24:33.640 --> 0:24:36.120
<v Speaker 2>and things like that, you go in these little shannies

0:24:36.160 --> 0:24:38.040
<v Speaker 2>and and but it had a really nice bathroom. You

0:24:38.080 --> 0:24:40.960
<v Speaker 2>knew that was Poblo's, you know, one of his places, okay,

0:24:40.960 --> 0:24:43.560
<v Speaker 2>And he'd always have he'd have a lady in there cooking,

0:24:43.640 --> 0:24:46.520
<v Speaker 2>and they'd have a young girl in there as the

0:24:46.680 --> 0:24:50.520
<v Speaker 2>cleaning lady. But more like you know, his personal enjoyment

0:24:50.560 --> 0:24:51.080
<v Speaker 2>type things.

0:24:51.440 --> 0:24:55.080
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So what was the what was the thing that fondly,

0:24:55.320 --> 0:24:56.880
<v Speaker 1>uh like kated him?

0:24:57.040 --> 0:25:01.840
<v Speaker 2>It was, Well, so Colonel Ugo Martinez is our boss.

0:25:02.119 --> 0:25:04.800
<v Speaker 2>He's the guy in charge of the blokie de busca

0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:08.280
<v Speaker 2>the search box what it translates to. And his son

0:25:08.359 --> 0:25:12.280
<v Speaker 2>is a lieutenant, Lieutenant Ugo Martinez. Well, the lieutenant taught

0:25:12.359 --> 0:25:17.040
<v Speaker 2>himself how to use radio directional finding equipment. The government

0:25:17.080 --> 0:25:19.560
<v Speaker 2>of France donated a bunch of vans that had radio

0:25:19.640 --> 0:25:24.040
<v Speaker 2>directional finding equipment mounted in them, and the algorithm that

0:25:24.160 --> 0:25:26.440
<v Speaker 2>they used back then was triangulation, which is pretty simple

0:25:26.480 --> 0:25:28.720
<v Speaker 2>to figure out. You know, Medine's built in a bowl.

0:25:28.800 --> 0:25:30.840
<v Speaker 2>So you put three vans up on high spots. They

0:25:30.840 --> 0:25:33.920
<v Speaker 2>shoot the signal out where the three signals intersect. That's

0:25:33.960 --> 0:25:38.120
<v Speaker 2>where Pablo's phone is coming from. Because it wasn't three G,

0:25:38.240 --> 0:25:40.280
<v Speaker 2>four G, five G phones like we enjoy today. They

0:25:40.280 --> 0:25:44.520
<v Speaker 2>were basically radio telephones. If he wanted to he knew

0:25:44.560 --> 0:25:46.520
<v Speaker 2>we were listening. If he wanted to thwart our efforts

0:25:46.560 --> 0:25:47.680
<v Speaker 2>to listen to him, all he had to do is

0:25:47.760 --> 0:25:51.000
<v Speaker 2>change frequency. But the challenge to him was he had

0:25:51.000 --> 0:25:52.879
<v Speaker 2>to get the new frequency to the people he wanted

0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:55.320
<v Speaker 2>to talk to. So it wasn't quite as easy to

0:25:55.359 --> 0:26:01.320
<v Speaker 2>spend that dial. So they get they get the triangulation.

0:26:01.520 --> 0:26:05.280
<v Speaker 2>They triangulate on the signal. The margin of error back

0:26:05.320 --> 0:26:09.239
<v Speaker 2>that time could be two three city blocks large. So

0:26:09.320 --> 0:26:12.240
<v Speaker 2>to refine that, to refine that area down, you send

0:26:12.240 --> 0:26:15.320
<v Speaker 2>somebody in with holding an antenna out the car window,

0:26:15.400 --> 0:26:19.320
<v Speaker 2>driving down the street. And that was Lieutenant Martinez. He's

0:26:19.400 --> 0:26:21.040
<v Speaker 2>he's got a meter in one hand, he's got driver

0:26:21.240 --> 0:26:23.920
<v Speaker 2>driving him and he's driving down the street. He gets us.

0:26:23.960 --> 0:26:26.440
<v Speaker 2>He thinks he's found this warehouse, and so they bring

0:26:26.480 --> 0:26:29.159
<v Speaker 2>the Deheen guys in, they launch an operation. It's an

0:26:29.160 --> 0:26:32.520
<v Speaker 2>empty warehouse. So, I mean, you know the grief he

0:26:32.560 --> 0:26:35.160
<v Speaker 2>caught from all the other cops because like, oh, you idiot,

0:26:35.320 --> 0:26:36.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, I mean, you know how we are.

0:26:37.440 --> 0:26:42.800
<v Speaker 1>You make a mistake, you pay for it, and you ridicule.

0:26:42.760 --> 0:26:47.359
<v Speaker 2>Yes do So he what he did is he found

0:26:47.359 --> 0:26:49.800
<v Speaker 2>there was a body of water next to the this warehouse,

0:26:49.960 --> 0:26:52.960
<v Speaker 2>and water will affect the way that radio waves passed

0:26:52.960 --> 0:26:57.000
<v Speaker 2>through the air. So he recalibrated his equipment to uh

0:26:57.200 --> 0:27:00.399
<v Speaker 2>include that water area, and he gets another hit. So

0:27:00.440 --> 0:27:03.000
<v Speaker 2>he's driving down the street holding this antenta out the window.

0:27:03.680 --> 0:27:07.480
<v Speaker 2>He says, we've got a reenactment video where he's actually interviewed,

0:27:08.040 --> 0:27:10.040
<v Speaker 2>and he looks up and he says he sees Pablo

0:27:10.160 --> 0:27:13.800
<v Speaker 2>Escobar on the phone talking looking at him. Well, we're

0:27:13.840 --> 0:27:16.720
<v Speaker 2>listening to the phone call on the wire tap. There's

0:27:16.840 --> 0:27:19.280
<v Speaker 2>never any we listened to this a lot of times.

0:27:19.640 --> 0:27:23.359
<v Speaker 2>There's never any indication that Pablo saw Lieutenant Martinez or

0:27:23.440 --> 0:27:25.600
<v Speaker 2>this man driving down the street holding an antenna out

0:27:25.600 --> 0:27:28.600
<v Speaker 2>the window, which was, you know, something you don't see

0:27:28.640 --> 0:27:31.840
<v Speaker 2>every day. And the only explanation we've ever come up

0:27:31.880 --> 0:27:34.600
<v Speaker 2>with is like when you ask me a question, I'm

0:27:34.600 --> 0:27:37.200
<v Speaker 2>reliving a lot of things in my mind, and I'm

0:27:37.240 --> 0:27:39.439
<v Speaker 2>seeing you on the screen, but I'm more in my

0:27:39.480 --> 0:27:42.480
<v Speaker 2>mind reliving things I don't I mean, you could pick

0:27:42.480 --> 0:27:43.920
<v Speaker 2>your nose, I probably wouldn't even pick up.

0:27:43.840 --> 0:27:47.439
<v Speaker 1>On it because I didn't by that allegation stuff I

0:27:47.640 --> 0:27:49.040
<v Speaker 1>was not and I didn't see it.

0:27:49.680 --> 0:27:52.760
<v Speaker 2>I didn't see it. So and that's the only thing

0:27:52.800 --> 0:27:55.840
<v Speaker 2>we can every only explanation we ever came up with. Well,

0:27:55.840 --> 0:27:58.760
<v Speaker 2>now you've got one hundred percent confirmation there's Pablo in

0:27:58.800 --> 0:28:03.879
<v Speaker 2>this row house. So I'm back at the base and

0:28:03.920 --> 0:28:05.840
<v Speaker 2>I'm actually in the room with all the gringoes talking

0:28:05.840 --> 0:28:07.360
<v Speaker 2>because you know, it's just kind of nice to talk

0:28:07.359 --> 0:28:09.520
<v Speaker 2>to your countryman every once in a while and just

0:28:09.640 --> 0:28:13.199
<v Speaker 2>you're talking sports or whatever, girlfriends or whatever. And I

0:28:13.240 --> 0:28:15.480
<v Speaker 2>see it. We're in this quad area, and I see

0:28:15.520 --> 0:28:17.760
<v Speaker 2>the executive staff for the colonel as majors and his

0:28:17.800 --> 0:28:20.280
<v Speaker 2>lieutenant colonel's running across the squad and that's you know,

0:28:20.400 --> 0:28:23.199
<v Speaker 2>that's clue something's going on. So I told the gringoes.

0:28:23.200 --> 0:28:24.960
<v Speaker 2>I said, hey, man, something's happening. I'll be right back.

0:28:25.119 --> 0:28:27.760
<v Speaker 2>And so I go to the Colonel Martinez's office. And

0:28:27.840 --> 0:28:30.960
<v Speaker 2>we had in a good enough relationship, a mutual respect

0:28:30.960 --> 0:28:32.240
<v Speaker 2>that he sees me at the door and he said,

0:28:32.240 --> 0:28:34.199
<v Speaker 2>come on. He come on in, and he's on the

0:28:34.240 --> 0:28:37.439
<v Speaker 2>phone with the lieutenant and he's giving him instructure. He's like, okay,

0:28:37.840 --> 0:28:40.240
<v Speaker 2>he says, we've got Pablo located without you know, with

0:28:40.320 --> 0:28:42.960
<v Speaker 2>one hundred percent margin of air or no margin of

0:28:43.000 --> 0:28:46.640
<v Speaker 2>air whatsoever. Colonel saying, okay, we're loading up the troops. Well,

0:28:46.880 --> 0:28:49.560
<v Speaker 2>loading up six hundred people takes a while. You know,

0:28:49.600 --> 0:28:51.480
<v Speaker 2>you can't knock it out in five or ten minutes,

0:28:51.880 --> 0:28:53.760
<v Speaker 2>he said. But whatever you do, don't let him get away.

0:28:53.800 --> 0:28:56.840
<v Speaker 2>Surround it and keep him there. Don't let him get away. Well,

0:28:56.840 --> 0:29:00.000
<v Speaker 2>these the heen guys, they interpreted to that to meus

0:29:00.080 --> 0:29:04.440
<v Speaker 2>go get him. The American operators had taught them how

0:29:04.440 --> 0:29:07.720
<v Speaker 2>to use debt cord to blow doors open. So they

0:29:08.280 --> 0:29:11.600
<v Speaker 2>this is a three story rowhouse. They line the front door,

0:29:11.600 --> 0:29:13.360
<v Speaker 2>blow the door off, the engines, they go in. The

0:29:13.400 --> 0:29:19.840
<v Speaker 2>first floor is a combination garage, kitchen, laundry room or

0:29:19.880 --> 0:29:23.240
<v Speaker 2>cleaning room. Maybe made's quarters back there. Then you go

0:29:23.360 --> 0:29:25.280
<v Speaker 2>to the second floor and there's a living room, there's

0:29:25.320 --> 0:29:28.040
<v Speaker 2>a couple bedrooms, and the third floors all bedrooms and bathrooms.

0:29:28.720 --> 0:29:31.760
<v Speaker 2>So as they get up to the second floor, they

0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:33.719
<v Speaker 2>clear the first floor. They go to the second floor,

0:29:34.040 --> 0:29:36.800
<v Speaker 2>there's Pablo running up to the third floor. They exchange

0:29:36.840 --> 0:29:40.560
<v Speaker 2>shots with each other. One police officer actually tripped on

0:29:40.600 --> 0:29:42.720
<v Speaker 2>the steps, which saved his life because Pablo shot at

0:29:42.800 --> 0:29:44.400
<v Speaker 2>him right at that time and it went right over

0:29:44.440 --> 0:29:49.080
<v Speaker 2>top of his head. Poblo at one time had as

0:29:49.080 --> 0:29:52.720
<v Speaker 2>many as five hundred cicario as protecting him. On December second,

0:29:52.760 --> 0:29:55.800
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety three, he was down to one guy. His

0:29:55.920 --> 0:29:58.280
<v Speaker 2>nickname was lemon On I can't remember his real name.

0:29:58.600 --> 0:30:03.480
<v Speaker 2>Lemon gets to the third floor window. The rowhouse behind

0:30:03.560 --> 0:30:06.000
<v Speaker 2>him was a two story, so he could jump out

0:30:06.000 --> 0:30:07.960
<v Speaker 2>that window onto the roof of this two story and

0:30:07.960 --> 0:30:09.760
<v Speaker 2>then they were going to make their escape out the

0:30:09.800 --> 0:30:12.360
<v Speaker 2>back way well. The cops had sent a couple guys

0:30:12.360 --> 0:30:15.640
<v Speaker 2>around the back. They ordered Lemona to drop his we

0:30:15.640 --> 0:30:17.760
<v Speaker 2>weapons and surrender. He starts shooting at him from the

0:30:17.800 --> 0:30:19.920
<v Speaker 2>roof and they tune him up and he falls off

0:30:20.000 --> 0:30:23.520
<v Speaker 2>dead onto the ground. Now Pablo gets up to that

0:30:23.560 --> 0:30:25.920
<v Speaker 2>third window, or that third floor, and that window he

0:30:26.000 --> 0:30:29.320
<v Speaker 2>knows good guys are coming up steps. Now he's heard

0:30:29.040 --> 0:30:31.600
<v Speaker 2>this shooting outside, so he knows there's good guys out there,

0:30:31.600 --> 0:30:33.680
<v Speaker 2>and he knows he's in a crossfire. He goes in

0:30:33.800 --> 0:30:37.240
<v Speaker 2>and jumps out the roof. The building next to this

0:30:37.360 --> 0:30:39.560
<v Speaker 2>two story was another three stories, so there's a wall

0:30:39.600 --> 0:30:42.160
<v Speaker 2>here and Pablo is trying to inch along that wall

0:30:42.200 --> 0:30:44.680
<v Speaker 2>to see where the guys are on the ground. These

0:30:44.720 --> 0:30:46.440
<v Speaker 2>guys are coming up to the front window. He's like,

0:30:46.880 --> 0:30:48.880
<v Speaker 2>screw it. He takes off a run across the roof,

0:30:49.240 --> 0:30:51.760
<v Speaker 2>shooting at them, shooting at them. They catch him in

0:30:51.800 --> 0:30:55.160
<v Speaker 2>a crossfire. He's hit three times, once in the back

0:30:55.200 --> 0:30:57.760
<v Speaker 2>of the leg, once in the butt cheek, which both

0:30:57.760 --> 0:30:59.480
<v Speaker 2>of those are knocked down shots, but neither one was

0:30:59.480 --> 0:31:01.720
<v Speaker 2>a kill shot. And then the kill shot was a

0:31:01.760 --> 0:31:05.320
<v Speaker 2>two twenty three round through the ear. There's a lot

0:31:05.320 --> 0:31:10.480
<v Speaker 2>of speculation about that round through the ear. His son,

0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:14.400
<v Speaker 2>Wan Pablo, would have you believe that his dad committed suicide.

0:31:15.720 --> 0:31:19.360
<v Speaker 2>I've took the pictures. We don't post those on the

0:31:19.400 --> 0:31:21.880
<v Speaker 2>meat on the internet. But you can see them all

0:31:21.920 --> 0:31:24.440
<v Speaker 2>on the internet because people take pricktures during our presentations

0:31:24.520 --> 0:31:27.320
<v Speaker 2>and they post them. When I was a city cop,

0:31:27.360 --> 0:31:30.560
<v Speaker 2>I've worked murders and I've worked suicides. I'm also a

0:31:30.560 --> 0:31:34.080
<v Speaker 2>former fire arms instructor for DEEA. You know that when

0:31:34.120 --> 0:31:35.560
<v Speaker 2>you shoot a bullet and it comes out the end

0:31:35.600 --> 0:31:37.680
<v Speaker 2>of the barrel, there's little bits of gunpowder that follow

0:31:37.720 --> 0:31:40.520
<v Speaker 2>the bullet out and they'll travel a certain distance before

0:31:40.520 --> 0:31:43.239
<v Speaker 2>they lose their velocity and follow the ground. Even if

0:31:43.280 --> 0:31:46.160
<v Speaker 2>you could hold a gun at arm's length. And remember

0:31:46.160 --> 0:31:47.720
<v Speaker 2>it's the two twenty three, So now he's going to

0:31:47.760 --> 0:31:50.040
<v Speaker 2>have to turn a rifle around and shoot himself into ear.

0:31:50.880 --> 0:31:52.640
<v Speaker 2>There would be powder burns all over the side of

0:31:52.640 --> 0:31:55.680
<v Speaker 2>his head. You can go online and look those pictures.

0:31:55.880 --> 0:31:58.120
<v Speaker 2>I promise you there's not a single powder burn on there.

0:31:58.840 --> 0:32:01.120
<v Speaker 2>So he was killed by the Columbia National Police. It's

0:32:01.160 --> 0:32:03.440
<v Speaker 2>not suicide, you know, the kid. I don't know why.

0:32:03.720 --> 0:32:06.160
<v Speaker 2>You know, maybe if my if Pablo Escobar had been

0:32:06.200 --> 0:32:08.480
<v Speaker 2>my dad, I think I'd like to change the legacy

0:32:08.520 --> 0:32:10.880
<v Speaker 2>of his memory too. But that's not true. It's it's

0:32:10.880 --> 0:32:11.240
<v Speaker 2>a lie.

0:32:11.360 --> 0:32:14.360
<v Speaker 1>If you'll you have sayen that in a gunshop residue

0:32:14.360 --> 0:32:18.280
<v Speaker 1>there when it happened. You've you've come out shortly after,

0:32:18.680 --> 0:32:21.040
<v Speaker 1>and some of some of the five days that you

0:32:21.160 --> 0:32:23.320
<v Speaker 1>talk about, the five days that have been at in

0:32:23.320 --> 0:32:26.440
<v Speaker 1>the public, they were five days that you actually talk.

0:32:26.880 --> 0:32:28.680
<v Speaker 2>Right, you know. You see on a Narco series it

0:32:28.720 --> 0:32:30.680
<v Speaker 2>shows that I was on the roof when Pablo was killed.

0:32:30.680 --> 0:32:33.560
<v Speaker 2>That's not true. I wrote out after the fact with

0:32:33.600 --> 0:32:35.240
<v Speaker 2>Colonel Martinez and his jeep.

0:32:35.200 --> 0:32:37.720
<v Speaker 1>And when when you got there, you had to go there,

0:32:37.760 --> 0:32:41.520
<v Speaker 1>I identify him and just corroborate the fact that it

0:32:41.360 --> 0:32:43.760
<v Speaker 1>is him. How did you feel.

0:32:44.000 --> 0:32:46.640
<v Speaker 2>When one of the majors on the de Henion after

0:32:46.640 --> 0:32:50.160
<v Speaker 2>they killed Pablo, he comes back in radio's back Viva Columbia.

0:32:50.200 --> 0:32:53.040
<v Speaker 2>Pablo is dead. I took off running over to the

0:32:53.080 --> 0:32:56.080
<v Speaker 2>wire room to call the embassy to you know, because

0:32:56.080 --> 0:32:58.360
<v Speaker 2>you've got to let your bosses know what happened. And

0:32:58.400 --> 0:33:00.400
<v Speaker 2>so I couldn't get through to the d A office

0:33:00.560 --> 0:33:02.600
<v Speaker 2>to the front office. So I ended up calling our

0:33:02.640 --> 0:33:05.400
<v Speaker 2>admin office. When the secretary's answered and she's like, oh, hey, Steve,

0:33:05.400 --> 0:33:07.560
<v Speaker 2>how you doing. I'm like, go get mister Taff was

0:33:07.560 --> 0:33:10.080
<v Speaker 2>our boss. I said, go get mister Toff. Oh okay, is

0:33:10.120 --> 0:33:12.360
<v Speaker 2>everything okay? I'm like, go get mister Toff now, quit

0:33:12.400 --> 0:33:16.280
<v Speaker 2>wasting time, you know. And so it took two three

0:33:16.320 --> 0:33:18.360
<v Speaker 2>minutes before he came on the phone, which just seemed

0:33:18.400 --> 0:33:20.840
<v Speaker 2>like an eternity because I know that they're mounting up

0:33:20.840 --> 0:33:24.160
<v Speaker 2>the troops and getting ready to go out there. When

0:33:24.480 --> 0:33:26.120
<v Speaker 2>mister Toff comes on the phone, the first thing he

0:33:26.160 --> 0:33:29.720
<v Speaker 2>says is they just kill Pablo. I'm like, well, no shit,

0:33:30.120 --> 0:33:33.800
<v Speaker 2>that's why I'm calling you. And so I told him

0:33:33.840 --> 0:33:36.920
<v Speaker 2>what had happened, and he said, listen, get out there,

0:33:37.280 --> 0:33:39.600
<v Speaker 2>confirm this is Pablo. You know, we've been down this

0:33:39.720 --> 0:33:41.680
<v Speaker 2>road before where we get our hopes up. Go make

0:33:41.680 --> 0:33:44.600
<v Speaker 2>sure this is Pablo. So I run back to the

0:33:44.600 --> 0:33:46.800
<v Speaker 2>barracks to get my gear, you know, a gun and everything,

0:33:46.840 --> 0:33:51.520
<v Speaker 2>and come running back out and everybody is gone. The

0:33:51.560 --> 0:33:54.040
<v Speaker 2>only people there are the guards on the gates. I

0:33:54.080 --> 0:33:56.040
<v Speaker 2>don't have a car, I don't know where they are.

0:33:56.240 --> 0:33:59.000
<v Speaker 1>You know, I'm old, dressed up, and no way they

0:33:59.040 --> 0:34:01.200
<v Speaker 1>got exactly right.

0:34:01.880 --> 0:34:04.600
<v Speaker 2>So I'm just standing there just trying to go through

0:34:04.600 --> 0:34:05.800
<v Speaker 2>my mind. Right, how am I going to do this?

0:34:06.120 --> 0:34:07.960
<v Speaker 2>Maybe I could call a taxi or you know, And

0:34:08.480 --> 0:34:11.520
<v Speaker 2>finally here comes Colonel Martinez with his protection detail, driving

0:34:11.600 --> 0:34:12.920
<v Speaker 2>back in and he sees me standing out in the

0:34:12.920 --> 0:34:15.000
<v Speaker 2>middle of quality. He say, Steve, what are you doing?

0:34:15.239 --> 0:34:18.719
<v Speaker 2>They actually called me Steak Stick cause they couldn't They

0:34:18.760 --> 0:34:20.560
<v Speaker 2>couldn't say Steve, so it came out of Stick. It

0:34:20.600 --> 0:34:22.799
<v Speaker 2>was my nickname. He says, Stick, what are you doing?

0:34:22.840 --> 0:34:24.239
<v Speaker 2>And I said, I need a ride. Colonel He's like,

0:34:24.360 --> 0:34:27.760
<v Speaker 2>get the jeep, you know. So I ride out with him.

0:34:28.239 --> 0:34:30.080
<v Speaker 2>We get out there, We go in the door that

0:34:31.120 --> 0:34:33.879
<v Speaker 2>the Deheen guys had made entry. We searched the first floor,

0:34:33.880 --> 0:34:36.440
<v Speaker 2>take pictures, go to the second floor, take pictures. Get

0:34:36.480 --> 0:34:38.719
<v Speaker 2>to the third floor and that's the window. So I

0:34:38.760 --> 0:34:40.319
<v Speaker 2>get to that wind and I look out and there's

0:34:40.320 --> 0:34:43.040
<v Speaker 2>all our Deheen buddies out there over the body. And

0:34:43.080 --> 0:34:45.040
<v Speaker 2>I yelled to them and they're all yelling back, holding

0:34:45.040 --> 0:34:47.000
<v Speaker 2>their rifles up. You know, we got him. We got him.

0:34:47.040 --> 0:34:50.960
<v Speaker 2>It's Bablo. He's dead. Well now thousands of people are

0:34:50.960 --> 0:34:52.759
<v Speaker 2>starting to come out because they just heard this big,

0:34:52.760 --> 0:34:56.439
<v Speaker 2>massive gun battle. We've got our six hundred people out there.

0:34:56.680 --> 0:34:59.240
<v Speaker 2>Then the Columbian military shows up with a couple hundreds.

0:34:59.280 --> 0:35:03.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean, it's just it's great security, but Eventually I

0:35:03.640 --> 0:35:05.560
<v Speaker 2>got around back with the colonel and we climbed up

0:35:05.560 --> 0:35:07.800
<v Speaker 2>on the roof and that's when I took the pictures

0:35:07.800 --> 0:35:09.719
<v Speaker 2>of Pablo, and the whole purpose of that was for

0:35:09.840 --> 0:35:17.000
<v Speaker 2>identification purposes. When that was over, we're standing on the

0:35:17.080 --> 0:35:20.719
<v Speaker 2>roof and this group of people show up and they're

0:35:20.719 --> 0:35:23.680
<v Speaker 2>making a commotion and I looked at one of the

0:35:23.719 --> 0:35:25.920
<v Speaker 2>lieutenant Colonels was up there. Colonel Colias was with me

0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:28.759
<v Speaker 2>and I said, Colonel, who's that down there? And he said, well,

0:35:28.760 --> 0:35:32.360
<v Speaker 2>that's Pablo's mom and that's Pablo's sister. Like oh really,

0:35:33.080 --> 0:35:35.320
<v Speaker 2>so let's just watch them for a minute. So we

0:35:35.400 --> 0:35:37.840
<v Speaker 2>watch them and they're arguing with the police and the military,

0:35:37.920 --> 0:35:41.640
<v Speaker 2>and finally his sister she's really loud and obnoxious. She's like,

0:35:41.680 --> 0:35:43.399
<v Speaker 2>I want to see you say that's Pablo on the ground.

0:35:43.440 --> 0:35:44.920
<v Speaker 2>I want to see him. I want to see that

0:35:44.920 --> 0:35:47.760
<v Speaker 2>that's my brother. So she goes over to where Limonum,

0:35:47.800 --> 0:35:50.400
<v Speaker 2>the bodyguard, is laying and she just goes off on

0:35:50.480 --> 0:35:52.640
<v Speaker 2>the police. She's like, oh, you idiots, that's not Pablo.

0:35:52.719 --> 0:35:54.799
<v Speaker 2>Whiskey bar, you killed the wrong person. You don't even

0:35:54.840 --> 0:35:57.040
<v Speaker 2>know what you're doing. And she just lets them have it.

0:35:57.239 --> 0:35:59.560
<v Speaker 2>Finally she calms down and one of the cops looks

0:35:59.560 --> 0:36:02.719
<v Speaker 2>at her and look on the roof. Bitch, that's what

0:36:02.800 --> 0:36:06.760
<v Speaker 2>Pablo was, was up on the roof. So I stick

0:36:06.800 --> 0:36:11.799
<v Speaker 2>around watched them. Once the mother and the sister saw

0:36:11.880 --> 0:36:15.120
<v Speaker 2>Pablo's body brought off the roof, and I saw their reaction,

0:36:15.680 --> 0:36:17.640
<v Speaker 2>there was no question in my mind whatsoever that was

0:36:17.680 --> 0:36:22.080
<v Speaker 2>Pablo Escobar. Now the police were worried about my safety

0:36:22.120 --> 0:36:26.040
<v Speaker 2>because you know, we weren't allowed to wear anything that

0:36:26.080 --> 0:36:28.520
<v Speaker 2>looked like police and military, so we typically wore, you know,

0:36:28.600 --> 0:36:33.279
<v Speaker 2>polo shirts and jeans, tennis shoes, whatever reason. That day

0:36:33.280 --> 0:36:35.520
<v Speaker 2>I had a red polo shirt on, which really I

0:36:35.520 --> 0:36:37.640
<v Speaker 2>don't stick out enough, so I wrote, wore a red shirt,

0:36:37.680 --> 0:36:39.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, go figure.

0:36:40.239 --> 0:36:40.960
<v Speaker 1>Good choice.

0:36:41.200 --> 0:36:43.560
<v Speaker 2>So now the press is starting to show up, and

0:36:43.640 --> 0:36:45.359
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to be on camera because we don't

0:36:45.360 --> 0:36:47.520
<v Speaker 2>want this to look like it was orchestrated by the

0:36:47.560 --> 0:36:49.799
<v Speaker 2>United States. We want the Columbia National Police to have

0:36:49.960 --> 0:36:54.400
<v Speaker 2>the credit for everything, and rightfully so. So the colonels,

0:36:54.440 --> 0:36:56.920
<v Speaker 2>like Lieutenant Colonel, he said, okay, Steve, we're going to

0:36:56.960 --> 0:36:58.680
<v Speaker 2>get you back, and so he gave me a protection

0:36:58.760 --> 0:37:02.279
<v Speaker 2>detail and they escort me back to the base that night.

0:37:02.840 --> 0:37:06.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean we went into total lockdown. You were you know,

0:37:06.880 --> 0:37:08.960
<v Speaker 2>I know you see this on TV, but you literally

0:37:09.000 --> 0:37:11.279
<v Speaker 2>have your gun under your pillow because you're expecting this

0:37:11.520 --> 0:37:16.640
<v Speaker 2>retaliatory tax, you know, retaliation from the narcos. Quiet at night,

0:37:16.680 --> 0:37:17.439
<v Speaker 2>I ever spent money.

0:37:17.480 --> 0:37:18.200
<v Speaker 1>And this was that night.

0:37:18.960 --> 0:37:22.520
<v Speaker 2>Next day they made Hoavier go to Miami to talk

0:37:22.520 --> 0:37:25.520
<v Speaker 2>to an informant, which is a bogus trip. We knew

0:37:25.560 --> 0:37:28.520
<v Speaker 2>the informant didn't have the information, but the ambassador order

0:37:28.560 --> 0:37:32.640
<v Speaker 2>how to go. So he flew back into that pub

0:37:32.800 --> 0:37:34.760
<v Speaker 2>was killed on a Thursday. He flew back to Bogaton

0:37:34.760 --> 0:37:37.480
<v Speaker 2>on Thursday night. Friday, he flew up to Median sent

0:37:37.560 --> 0:37:39.600
<v Speaker 2>a gunship out to bring him into the base. You know,

0:37:39.719 --> 0:37:43.799
<v Speaker 2>high five, congratulations and all that. We were there for

0:37:43.800 --> 0:37:45.920
<v Speaker 2>a couple hours, and he and I Friday night flew

0:37:45.960 --> 0:37:51.160
<v Speaker 2>back to Bogota and we weren't supposed to ride taxis

0:37:51.160 --> 0:37:53.160
<v Speaker 2>down there because of the danger factor. Well, the embassy

0:37:53.160 --> 0:37:55.840
<v Speaker 2>didn't send anybody out to pick us up, so we

0:37:55.960 --> 0:37:58.759
<v Speaker 2>jumped to the taxi went back to the embassy. My

0:37:58.840 --> 0:38:01.480
<v Speaker 2>wife was working in the see at that time, and

0:38:01.520 --> 0:38:06.080
<v Speaker 2>it's probably six thirty seven o'clock at night, and you know,

0:38:06.160 --> 0:38:09.600
<v Speaker 2>she had lots of pizzas and lots of cases of beer,

0:38:10.320 --> 0:38:14.320
<v Speaker 2>and we celebrated that night. We got home Saturday morning,

0:38:14.360 --> 0:38:17.040
<v Speaker 2>probably about ten thirty eleven o'clock. It was an all nighter.

0:38:17.680 --> 0:38:19.840
<v Speaker 2>It was one hell of a party. Well it was,

0:38:21.760 --> 0:38:23.480
<v Speaker 2>and that was a long story of your short question.

0:38:24.040 --> 0:38:25.879
<v Speaker 2>It felt like the weight of the world had been

0:38:25.920 --> 0:38:29.080
<v Speaker 2>lifted off our shoulders. I mean, it's my wife and

0:38:29.080 --> 0:38:31.360
<v Speaker 2>I had adopted our first daughter down there in October

0:38:31.400 --> 0:38:33.400
<v Speaker 2>before Pablo was killed, and then I had to go

0:38:33.480 --> 0:38:36.040
<v Speaker 2>back to Media Inc. And Monica at that time, she

0:38:36.080 --> 0:38:37.400
<v Speaker 2>was at eight months old and we got her and

0:38:37.440 --> 0:38:39.160
<v Speaker 2>I'm you know, I'm not even getting to spend any

0:38:39.160 --> 0:38:43.160
<v Speaker 2>time with my new daughter. So it was it was

0:38:44.680 --> 0:38:48.759
<v Speaker 2>it's hard to describe. It's just, you know, Wow, he's

0:38:48.800 --> 0:38:50.640
<v Speaker 2>finally dead. He's really finally dead.

0:38:51.560 --> 0:38:55.560
<v Speaker 1>And do what was the ongoing reaction from that? Did

0:38:55.600 --> 0:38:56.480
<v Speaker 1>it make a difference.

0:38:57.080 --> 0:38:59.160
<v Speaker 2>That's a good question, and a lot of people ask

0:38:59.239 --> 0:39:02.120
<v Speaker 2>us that, especially when we go to the UK. Here's

0:39:02.160 --> 0:39:06.920
<v Speaker 2>what we did. We and you you already mentioned the statistics.

0:39:06.920 --> 0:39:09.080
<v Speaker 2>In ninety two and ninety three, medi in Columbia was

0:39:09.080 --> 0:39:11.200
<v Speaker 2>the murder capital of the entire world, one of the

0:39:11.239 --> 0:39:14.400
<v Speaker 2>most dangerous cities in the world. So we looked at

0:39:14.440 --> 0:39:16.520
<v Speaker 2>the murder rate in Meding prior to Pablo's death, and

0:39:16.560 --> 0:39:18.080
<v Speaker 2>then we waited a couple of months and checked the

0:39:18.160 --> 0:39:20.800
<v Speaker 2>murder rate, and you can go. I challenge every audience

0:39:20.920 --> 0:39:22.640
<v Speaker 2>to go check it and see if I'm telling the truth,

0:39:22.719 --> 0:39:25.120
<v Speaker 2>because what I found and what you'll find, is that

0:39:25.200 --> 0:39:28.320
<v Speaker 2>the murder rate in Median, Columbia had dropped by almost

0:39:28.360 --> 0:39:35.920
<v Speaker 2>eighty percent simply because Pablo Escobar was dead. Now did

0:39:36.000 --> 0:39:39.319
<v Speaker 2>we do we make a difference on cocaine trafficking? We did,

0:39:39.760 --> 0:39:42.920
<v Speaker 2>probably lasted maybe two weeks at most. The sad thing

0:39:43.080 --> 0:39:45.000
<v Speaker 2>is here in the United States right now you can

0:39:45.040 --> 0:39:48.400
<v Speaker 2>go on almost any street corner by cocaine, certain areas

0:39:48.400 --> 0:39:51.800
<v Speaker 2>of town you go to. So people say, well, the

0:39:52.160 --> 0:39:54.160
<v Speaker 2>war on drugs is lost, that it has just been

0:39:54.200 --> 0:39:58.239
<v Speaker 2>away at coloss a waste of time and human life. Well,

0:39:58.280 --> 0:40:00.960
<v Speaker 2>what would it be like if law enforced wasn't out

0:40:00.960 --> 0:40:04.200
<v Speaker 2>there fighting the scourge? You know, would you be safe

0:40:04.239 --> 0:40:06.360
<v Speaker 2>to do anything? Because there's going to be drug addicts everywhere.

0:40:06.360 --> 0:40:07.719
<v Speaker 2>They're going to be robbing here, They're going to be

0:40:07.719 --> 0:40:09.880
<v Speaker 2>still and you're going to kill, you gonna be jacking

0:40:09.880 --> 0:40:14.719
<v Speaker 2>your car. It made a difference. It's just it didn't

0:40:14.840 --> 0:40:17.919
<v Speaker 2>end the war on drugs. That's not going to happen

0:40:18.000 --> 0:40:19.239
<v Speaker 2>until the demand goes away.

0:40:20.160 --> 0:40:24.080
<v Speaker 1>How do you approach it? That's a subject for another

0:40:24.160 --> 0:40:29.080
<v Speaker 1>another time. I think highlighting what you were doing. Your

0:40:29.160 --> 0:40:33.640
<v Speaker 1>job was to locate and capture Pablo Escobar, and by

0:40:33.680 --> 0:40:37.279
<v Speaker 1>doing so you made a difference and a job of

0:40:37.280 --> 0:40:41.640
<v Speaker 1>that magnitude. That's like an investigation on steroids. Were you

0:40:41.719 --> 0:40:44.520
<v Speaker 1>on a low after it? Like did you you feel

0:40:44.520 --> 0:40:46.719
<v Speaker 1>like you lack purpose? Or did you use it to

0:40:46.760 --> 0:40:49.640
<v Speaker 1>just go Okay, I've done the hard yards. Now I

0:40:49.680 --> 0:40:52.560
<v Speaker 1>can have a bit of a bit of a rest

0:40:52.920 --> 0:40:54.680
<v Speaker 1>or take some time to find myself again.

0:40:55.719 --> 0:40:58.919
<v Speaker 2>Well, I was there until June. So he was killed

0:40:58.960 --> 0:41:01.120
<v Speaker 2>Decemberary three and asked for back to the United States.

0:41:01.160 --> 0:41:03.560
<v Speaker 2>Since in June of ninety four and Javier came out.

0:41:03.560 --> 0:41:06.520
<v Speaker 2>I think in September. I ended up in North Carolina.

0:41:07.239 --> 0:41:09.759
<v Speaker 2>Never seen praight cocaine in my life. I've spent four

0:41:09.800 --> 0:41:13.239
<v Speaker 2>years in Miami, three years in Bogata, and I ended

0:41:13.280 --> 0:41:17.760
<v Speaker 2>up Greensboro. And right, cocaine is the that's the drug

0:41:17.960 --> 0:41:20.759
<v Speaker 2>evil drug of that area at the time, so you

0:41:20.840 --> 0:41:23.640
<v Speaker 2>addressed whatever the drug problem is in the area that

0:41:23.680 --> 0:41:28.239
<v Speaker 2>you're assigned. But when I got to Greensboro and I

0:41:28.239 --> 0:41:29.440
<v Speaker 2>didn't even know where it was, I had to look

0:41:29.440 --> 0:41:32.759
<v Speaker 2>it up on the map. When I got to Greensboro,

0:41:32.880 --> 0:41:38.080
<v Speaker 2>I felt like that's when the job got to be

0:41:38.120 --> 0:41:41.160
<v Speaker 2>a lot of fun. That there had I had no

0:41:41.719 --> 0:41:45.600
<v Speaker 2>pressure whatsoever to prove myself to anybody. I felt like

0:41:45.719 --> 0:41:48.640
<v Speaker 2>I survived Miami in the nineteen eighties, I survived the

0:41:48.680 --> 0:41:52.640
<v Speaker 2>Pablo Escobar man hunt. That's when a job got to

0:41:52.680 --> 0:41:56.160
<v Speaker 2>be fun. I mean, we had five agents trying to

0:41:56.160 --> 0:41:59.279
<v Speaker 2>cover twenty plus counties, so we always worked at our

0:41:59.280 --> 0:42:02.520
<v Speaker 2>state and local park nurse, which quite honestly, I prefer

0:42:02.600 --> 0:42:04.920
<v Speaker 2>working with anyway, because they're a lot more fun to

0:42:04.960 --> 0:42:06.880
<v Speaker 2>hang out with, and you know, they don't complain when

0:42:06.880 --> 0:42:10.439
<v Speaker 2>it's quitting time. And I mean they're dedicated, and most

0:42:10.560 --> 0:42:14.279
<v Speaker 2>most d agents are, but not all. So I guess

0:42:14.320 --> 0:42:16.239
<v Speaker 2>that was the thing for me. It was it was

0:42:18.760 --> 0:42:22.120
<v Speaker 2>I had come I had become a workaholic, I think.

0:42:22.440 --> 0:42:24.960
<v Speaker 2>I mean we were Gosh, if you were in the embassy,

0:42:24.960 --> 0:42:27.239
<v Speaker 2>we lived off off the coffee and doughnuts, every day.

0:42:27.280 --> 0:42:29.959
<v Speaker 2>It was that sugar and caffeine kept you going. I'd

0:42:29.960 --> 0:42:32.320
<v Speaker 2>stop by the nurses station and get my blood pressure

0:42:32.400 --> 0:42:34.319
<v Speaker 2>checked and it was never high. You know, I say

0:42:34.360 --> 0:42:36.400
<v Speaker 2>it was I felt like, you know, the good man

0:42:36.480 --> 0:42:41.040
<v Speaker 2>upstairs was taking care of me healthwise. The Columbia National Police,

0:42:42.080 --> 0:42:45.640
<v Speaker 2>especially the dehing guys. When the bullets started flying, we

0:42:45.719 --> 0:42:47.640
<v Speaker 2>knew they wouldn't run off and leave us. I mean

0:42:47.640 --> 0:42:49.920
<v Speaker 2>they'd stand there and fight to protect us. But they

0:42:50.000 --> 0:42:52.520
<v Speaker 2>knew we wouldn't run off and leave them either. So

0:42:52.640 --> 0:42:55.080
<v Speaker 2>it was just it was one of the I would

0:42:55.160 --> 0:42:57.520
<v Speaker 2>I never want to do any of that again, especially

0:42:57.560 --> 0:42:59.680
<v Speaker 2>at this old man age, but I wouldn't trade it

0:42:59.719 --> 0:43:03.600
<v Speaker 2>for the world. It's what we're doing in retirement is

0:43:04.280 --> 0:43:06.399
<v Speaker 2>I never dreamt we'd be doing anything like this. It's

0:43:06.520 --> 0:43:08.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean, being on a podcast with you and you're

0:43:08.920 --> 0:43:11.239
<v Speaker 2>in Australia. I mean I get to travel the world

0:43:11.239 --> 0:43:13.480
<v Speaker 2>just our Kenthon. You're traveling around the world telling the

0:43:13.520 --> 0:43:18.799
<v Speaker 2>true story about bablu Escobar. We talk about leadership, decision making, teamwork.

0:43:19.840 --> 0:43:22.640
<v Speaker 2>It's I'm having a blast in retirement. I have to see.

0:43:22.560 --> 0:43:26.160
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, like full credit to you, but I think

0:43:26.160 --> 0:43:30.000
<v Speaker 1>it starts and you didn't start off that investigation thinking, Okay,

0:43:30.200 --> 0:43:32.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm in twenty years thirty years time, I'm going to

0:43:32.960 --> 0:43:34.600
<v Speaker 1>be doing a tour around the world. I'm going to

0:43:34.600 --> 0:43:40.280
<v Speaker 1>speak on someone's podcast overseas. And that's I can see

0:43:40.320 --> 0:43:43.680
<v Speaker 1>and I know, yeah, you're a cop, you know other cops.

0:43:43.840 --> 0:43:46.160
<v Speaker 1>I can see the joy that you took from the

0:43:46.200 --> 0:43:48.919
<v Speaker 1>work that you're doing. It has the highs, it has

0:43:48.960 --> 0:43:52.759
<v Speaker 1>the horror, but there's also something that, yeah, it was

0:43:52.760 --> 0:43:58.839
<v Speaker 1>the right fit for you, obviously doing policing your life

0:43:58.880 --> 0:44:02.640
<v Speaker 1>after policing, hope, noting a round the world, and yeah,

0:44:02.080 --> 0:44:06.360
<v Speaker 1>your Netflix series Knockofs tell us how it came about.

0:44:06.760 --> 0:44:08.440
<v Speaker 2>You know, a friend of mine had introduced me to

0:44:09.000 --> 0:44:12.400
<v Speaker 2>Hollywood producers and Hobby and are stilling the job, and

0:44:13.200 --> 0:44:15.080
<v Speaker 2>I would call him. He was in Texas, I was

0:44:15.080 --> 0:44:18.160
<v Speaker 2>in Virginia, and you kind of get your hopes up that, oh,

0:44:18.239 --> 0:44:20.360
<v Speaker 2>maybe somebody is interested in this story because it was

0:44:20.360 --> 0:44:24.160
<v Speaker 2>so long ago, and both of those producers wanted to

0:44:24.160 --> 0:44:26.279
<v Speaker 2>take our story and make political statements out of it.

0:44:26.440 --> 0:44:28.520
<v Speaker 2>I say, I'm about as a political as you're going

0:44:28.600 --> 0:44:31.239
<v Speaker 2>to get. So you get your hopes up, but then

0:44:31.320 --> 0:44:34.839
<v Speaker 2>nothing happens and you get disappointed. So when I got

0:44:34.840 --> 0:44:37.600
<v Speaker 2>the call about this guy named Eric Newman and Hollywood

0:44:37.640 --> 0:44:40.640
<v Speaker 2>wanted to talk to us, I refused to call him

0:44:40.640 --> 0:44:42.120
<v Speaker 2>to start with. And the guy that called me was

0:44:42.120 --> 0:44:44.200
<v Speaker 2>an old Breen buddy, and I told him, I said, okay,

0:44:44.320 --> 0:44:45.919
<v Speaker 2>he cussed me out to what he did, and I's like, okay,

0:44:45.920 --> 0:44:48.160
<v Speaker 2>I'll call him. I'll call him. So I called Eric

0:44:48.200 --> 0:44:50.040
<v Speaker 2>and he kind of gave me his little spill on

0:44:50.080 --> 0:44:51.600
<v Speaker 2>the phone and I said, you know, thank you, but

0:44:51.719 --> 0:44:54.239
<v Speaker 2>I think we'll pass. And he got real quiet on

0:44:54.280 --> 0:44:55.960
<v Speaker 2>the phone. I said to Eric, are you still there?

0:44:56.000 --> 0:44:58.440
<v Speaker 2>And he's like, I can't believe you just said no.

0:44:59.320 --> 0:45:01.759
<v Speaker 2>And we've since learned that people will pretty much sell

0:45:01.800 --> 0:45:04.160
<v Speaker 2>their soul to be on TV in Hollywood. I mean,

0:45:04.160 --> 0:45:06.839
<v Speaker 2>there's some strange people out there. And so he said, listen,

0:45:06.880 --> 0:45:09.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm coming to Washington next month. Would you can I

0:45:09.600 --> 0:45:11.360
<v Speaker 2>take you to dinner. I have a couple of writers.

0:45:11.760 --> 0:45:13.920
<v Speaker 2>Let's just talk about this and see if we can

0:45:14.040 --> 0:45:16.839
<v Speaker 2>change your mind. And againy, you will understand this. I'm

0:45:16.840 --> 0:45:18.440
<v Speaker 2>thinking that's going to be a free dinner and a

0:45:18.480 --> 0:45:21.879
<v Speaker 2>really nice restaurant. Yes, I will meet you. That it

0:45:21.960 --> 0:45:26.680
<v Speaker 2>was as a French restaurant, so we you know, after

0:45:26.719 --> 0:45:29.239
<v Speaker 2>we talked to them, I just kind of developed a

0:45:29.239 --> 0:45:31.920
<v Speaker 2>connection with them. They were very open and honest and

0:45:31.920 --> 0:45:34.880
<v Speaker 2>transparent about everything. And so we're getting ready to leave

0:45:34.880 --> 0:45:36.279
<v Speaker 2>the restaurant. He says, so what are you going to do?

0:45:36.280 --> 0:45:37.880
<v Speaker 2>And I said, well, let me talk to Hoare and

0:45:38.440 --> 0:45:40.560
<v Speaker 2>let's maybe we'll pursue this and see where it goes.

0:45:41.320 --> 0:45:44.720
<v Speaker 2>So my initial conversation with Eric was in February of thirteen.

0:45:45.360 --> 0:45:48.520
<v Speaker 2>In March is when we had dinner. In May, we

0:45:48.560 --> 0:45:51.160
<v Speaker 2>signed contracts with Netflix, and at the end of June,

0:45:51.200 --> 0:45:53.640
<v Speaker 2>I retired from DEEA. I retired from law enforcement after

0:45:53.680 --> 0:45:56.520
<v Speaker 2>thirty eight years. And in July we were sitting in

0:45:56.560 --> 0:45:59.400
<v Speaker 2>Hollywood starting to write the first season of Narco's with

0:45:59.440 --> 0:46:02.720
<v Speaker 2>all the writers. So it went just like that.

0:46:03.000 --> 0:46:06.080
<v Speaker 1>Perfect, perfect Tommy for you. The obvious question you want

0:46:06.120 --> 0:46:08.640
<v Speaker 1>to ask is who's going to play you? At what

0:46:08.760 --> 0:46:11.759
<v Speaker 1>point in time did you ask who's going to play It?

0:46:11.880 --> 0:46:16.440
<v Speaker 2>Wasn't too far into it. There was between Eric and

0:46:16.960 --> 0:46:19.360
<v Speaker 2>one of his other producers is a guy named Chris Francato,

0:46:19.440 --> 0:46:22.200
<v Speaker 2>who this and I have stayed friends and I've worked

0:46:22.239 --> 0:46:25.040
<v Speaker 2>on a couple of other projects with him. And I

0:46:25.040 --> 0:46:27.560
<v Speaker 2>think what they would do is they would there are

0:46:27.680 --> 0:46:31.600
<v Speaker 2>organizations in Hollywood that, you know, their talent Agency, so

0:46:31.640 --> 0:46:34.879
<v Speaker 2>they represent certain actors and actresses, and so they would

0:46:34.880 --> 0:46:36.719
<v Speaker 2>bring us these booklets and said here's somebody you know

0:46:36.800 --> 0:46:38.560
<v Speaker 2>the book that might be this thick and they'd say,

0:46:38.760 --> 0:46:40.799
<v Speaker 2>here's some of the people were thinking about playing your part.

0:46:41.320 --> 0:46:43.480
<v Speaker 2>And he started going through. Then you see John Travolta,

0:46:43.600 --> 0:46:47.480
<v Speaker 2>and you see Armie Hammer, and you see Jake Jillen Hall,

0:46:47.560 --> 0:46:50.880
<v Speaker 2>and I'm like, holy cow, I'm not a big TV watcher,

0:46:50.920 --> 0:46:53.640
<v Speaker 2>but even I knew who these people were. And I

0:46:53.640 --> 0:46:55.680
<v Speaker 2>think it was just to playcad us, to keep us

0:46:55.680 --> 0:46:58.400
<v Speaker 2>from asking questions, because that's not who they hired at all.

0:46:58.520 --> 0:47:02.640
<v Speaker 1>Right, just keep these idiots happy.

0:47:02.800 --> 0:47:04.239
<v Speaker 2>Exactly, That's exactly right.

0:47:04.480 --> 0:47:08.080
<v Speaker 1>It's an experience and that it's been. I believe it's

0:47:08.080 --> 0:47:10.960
<v Speaker 1>one of the top Netflix series that they put out,

0:47:11.000 --> 0:47:14.839
<v Speaker 1>the original series. And the question that often gets us too,

0:47:14.920 --> 0:47:18.840
<v Speaker 1>when your life or the investigations played out in the

0:47:18.880 --> 0:47:23.120
<v Speaker 1>TV world, was it true and in terms of things

0:47:23.160 --> 0:47:26.000
<v Speaker 1>that happened, what's your take on Knickos.

0:47:26.560 --> 0:47:30.560
<v Speaker 2>The timeline, the chronological timeline is pretty accurate, but we

0:47:30.640 --> 0:47:33.000
<v Speaker 2>did it only in our own analysis of the first

0:47:33.040 --> 0:47:36.360
<v Speaker 2>two seasons, because that's the twenty episodes about Pablo Escobar,

0:47:37.239 --> 0:47:39.000
<v Speaker 2>and we figured that about a third of what you

0:47:39.040 --> 0:47:41.919
<v Speaker 2>see in there is true. The second third, well, those

0:47:41.920 --> 0:47:45.000
<v Speaker 2>events happened, but they haven't been portrayed correctly. They've been

0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:48.920
<v Speaker 2>dramatized greatly, or they've taken other incidents and combined them

0:47:48.920 --> 0:47:50.640
<v Speaker 2>and things like that. But then that last there is

0:47:50.680 --> 0:47:53.359
<v Speaker 2>just straight out and make believe Hollywood. You know, I

0:47:53.400 --> 0:47:56.520
<v Speaker 2>was never kidnapped. We weren't pushing people out of helicopter

0:47:56.600 --> 0:48:00.239
<v Speaker 2>doors at three thousand feet. Javier wasn't passing class find

0:48:00.239 --> 0:48:04.239
<v Speaker 2>information to lost peppies. But like I take you know

0:48:04.239 --> 0:48:06.200
<v Speaker 2>one on stage, what I joke around about it. What

0:48:06.320 --> 0:48:08.520
<v Speaker 2>is true is that Javier really is a man slut.

0:48:12.680 --> 0:48:15.120
<v Speaker 2>And it's funny because when his wife's when his wife's

0:48:15.120 --> 0:48:17.680
<v Speaker 2>in the audience, I always go before the show and say, Beverly,

0:48:18.280 --> 0:48:19.640
<v Speaker 2>you know what I'm going to say, Are you okay

0:48:19.640 --> 0:48:21.480
<v Speaker 2>with us? It's like, yeah, go ahead, don't know what

0:48:21.520 --> 0:48:21.839
<v Speaker 2>you're doing.

0:48:22.280 --> 0:48:25.799
<v Speaker 1>Well that that's good, but that's certainly the way he

0:48:25.960 --> 0:48:29.200
<v Speaker 1>was portrayed, but he seems to enjoy it. It must

0:48:29.239 --> 0:48:31.600
<v Speaker 1>be great. You two still been in contact. When you've

0:48:31.640 --> 0:48:35.759
<v Speaker 1>been through an experience like you went through. I take

0:48:35.760 --> 0:48:39.080
<v Speaker 1>it you've remained lifelong friends. And you must be having

0:48:39.080 --> 0:48:40.960
<v Speaker 1>a ball doing what you're doing because you do some

0:48:41.040 --> 0:48:44.280
<v Speaker 1>live shows as well. You've been able to overdo Australia

0:48:44.280 --> 0:48:47.920
<v Speaker 1>and UK and across America. You enjoying yourself?

0:48:48.280 --> 0:48:51.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, brother, I'm having a blast. It's we've been on

0:48:51.120 --> 0:48:53.520
<v Speaker 2>every content that except Africa and Antarctica, and I'm not

0:48:53.520 --> 0:48:56.000
<v Speaker 2>going to Antarctica. But we were supposed to go to

0:48:56.040 --> 0:48:57.799
<v Speaker 2>Africa the first year of COVID, and of course that

0:48:58.040 --> 0:49:02.200
<v Speaker 2>killed that. That our four years before COVID, we averaged

0:49:03.520 --> 0:49:07.200
<v Speaker 2>seventy five shows a year. So I saw hobbyer born

0:49:07.200 --> 0:49:09.440
<v Speaker 2>and I saw my wife, but my marriage was stronger

0:49:09.480 --> 0:49:09.839
<v Speaker 2>than ever.

0:49:10.040 --> 0:49:14.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, I wasn't on You've got to get a

0:49:14.480 --> 0:49:17.480
<v Speaker 1>wife from him. You probably probably probably seek of him.

0:49:17.760 --> 0:49:22.160
<v Speaker 1>And what's the you're also doing the podcast Game of Crimes.

0:49:22.200 --> 0:49:23.799
<v Speaker 1>What's what's the backstory to that?

0:49:24.440 --> 0:49:27.480
<v Speaker 2>It's very similar to what you're doing. It's I started

0:49:27.480 --> 0:49:29.279
<v Speaker 2>out with a friend of mine. We came up to

0:49:29.280 --> 0:49:31.239
<v Speaker 2>this idea. He was used to be a Kansas State

0:49:31.320 --> 0:49:34.520
<v Speaker 2>trooper and a detective out there and during COVID, we

0:49:34.600 --> 0:49:37.239
<v Speaker 2>got bored and decided we start a podcast. And I

0:49:37.280 --> 0:49:39.040
<v Speaker 2>don't even know what a podcast was, but he did,

0:49:39.719 --> 0:49:42.840
<v Speaker 2>so we're He had to leave the show last April

0:49:42.880 --> 0:49:45.440
<v Speaker 2>because he still had a day job and they increased

0:49:45.440 --> 0:49:47.960
<v Speaker 2>his responsibilities, but they also doubled his paycheck and that

0:49:48.000 --> 0:49:50.560
<v Speaker 2>pays a whole lot more than a podcast. Okay, but

0:49:51.360 --> 0:49:53.520
<v Speaker 2>coming up on the end of the fourth year here

0:49:53.640 --> 0:49:56.879
<v Speaker 2>in June, going to start the fifth year. Every show

0:49:56.920 --> 0:50:02.239
<v Speaker 2>has a guest. It's mostly current or law enforcement. Occasionally

0:50:02.320 --> 0:50:06.200
<v Speaker 2>a first responder or military. I bring in the military veterans,

0:50:07.040 --> 0:50:08.920
<v Speaker 2>and even every once in a while I'll bring in

0:50:08.920 --> 0:50:11.799
<v Speaker 2>a former bad guy and then let the listeners get

0:50:11.880 --> 0:50:15.200
<v Speaker 2>the perspective from his viewpoint. And most of them, they

0:50:15.760 --> 0:50:18.480
<v Speaker 2>they have to have a tone for for their crimes.

0:50:18.719 --> 0:50:19.920
<v Speaker 2>You know, most of them have done their time in

0:50:20.000 --> 0:50:23.120
<v Speaker 2>prison and they've changed their lives. And I have one

0:50:23.120 --> 0:50:25.359
<v Speaker 2>guy that was the just a couple of months ago,

0:50:25.440 --> 0:50:27.040
<v Speaker 2>that was the president of the Hell's Angels in Los

0:50:27.080 --> 0:50:30.920
<v Speaker 2>Angeles for thirty five years, and he really wouldn't come

0:50:30.960 --> 0:50:33.600
<v Speaker 2>off of it. He did his prison time. But you know,

0:50:33.600 --> 0:50:36.000
<v Speaker 2>I asked him, I said, anything you'd changed in your life,

0:50:36.000 --> 0:50:40.080
<v Speaker 2>and he's like, Nope, not a thing. So you know,

0:50:40.719 --> 0:50:43.319
<v Speaker 2>he's the only one that really hasn't come across the

0:50:43.760 --> 0:50:45.239
<v Speaker 2>you know, to be a good guy.

0:50:45.280 --> 0:50:50.520
<v Speaker 1>Now, it's interesting, interesting, Steve, you're touring, touring the world.

0:50:50.719 --> 0:50:54.720
<v Speaker 1>You've got the TV series pubcast, Wilse. I write a book,

0:50:55.400 --> 0:51:00.239
<v Speaker 1>Man Hunters and the Bringing Them Pablo Escoba, which I

0:51:00.280 --> 0:51:02.960
<v Speaker 1>read cover the cover, and it's a great read and

0:51:02.960 --> 0:51:06.919
<v Speaker 1>gives a really good insight into what you've what you've done.

0:51:07.360 --> 0:51:09.799
<v Speaker 2>Just to give you a little inside secret, we had

0:51:09.840 --> 0:51:15.680
<v Speaker 2>a go straighter. No no, well, I tried to and

0:51:15.760 --> 0:51:17.360
<v Speaker 2>it looked like a third reader had written.

0:51:17.520 --> 0:51:20.920
<v Speaker 1>Well when I left the Cops and trying to like

0:51:21.280 --> 0:51:25.280
<v Speaker 1>I was doing journalism and writing articles and the book

0:51:25.840 --> 0:51:28.239
<v Speaker 1>it looked like a fact sheet until someone pulled me

0:51:28.280 --> 0:51:31.200
<v Speaker 1>aside and slapped me and said, it looks stupid. Had

0:51:31.200 --> 0:51:33.359
<v Speaker 1>a bit of color to this. We just don't want

0:51:33.360 --> 0:51:35.759
<v Speaker 1>a fact shet. Okay, all right, I had a bit

0:51:36.000 --> 0:51:37.880
<v Speaker 1>if I went back to the cops. Now, I'd love

0:51:37.920 --> 0:51:40.000
<v Speaker 1>to write a fact sheet because would be very creative.

0:51:40.000 --> 0:51:42.359
<v Speaker 1>It it'd be a cold, dark night when I came

0:51:42.400 --> 0:51:47.239
<v Speaker 1>across the seas. Oh yeah, yeah, anyway, look, thank you

0:51:47.360 --> 0:51:51.040
<v Speaker 1>very much for your time, and we literally have just

0:51:51.320 --> 0:51:57.480
<v Speaker 1>scratch scratched the surface of your stories. But from a

0:51:57.880 --> 0:52:01.680
<v Speaker 1>law enforcement officers point of view, I think what you did,

0:52:01.960 --> 0:52:04.479
<v Speaker 1>I can see the sacrifices you made, and we haven't

0:52:04.480 --> 0:52:08.319
<v Speaker 1>really delved into all the sacrifices you made in your

0:52:08.320 --> 0:52:11.960
<v Speaker 1>personal sacrifices hunting down the world's most wanted man and

0:52:12.000 --> 0:52:14.400
<v Speaker 1>all the other things that you've done in your career.

0:52:14.640 --> 0:52:19.520
<v Speaker 1>But also someone like you, I think inspires law enforcement officers,

0:52:19.640 --> 0:52:23.759
<v Speaker 1>Like you're this dumb, dumb kid from the country that

0:52:24.480 --> 0:52:27.600
<v Speaker 1>ended up living the life that you live because of

0:52:28.040 --> 0:52:28.960
<v Speaker 1>the job that you did.

0:52:29.400 --> 0:52:32.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I've been blessed in my life. I've been blessed

0:52:32.520 --> 0:52:36.880
<v Speaker 2>in my career. You know, you mentioned the families of

0:52:37.040 --> 0:52:41.120
<v Speaker 2>our families that sacrifice so much. I refer to them

0:52:41.120 --> 0:52:43.480
<v Speaker 2>as the unsung heroes, so I always give them a

0:52:43.520 --> 0:52:47.000
<v Speaker 2>shout out, and just to finish up about the esc

0:52:47.040 --> 0:52:48.880
<v Speaker 2>of our story, the real heroes. It's not half of

0:52:48.920 --> 0:52:51.520
<v Speaker 2>your opinion, Steve Murphy. It's not the United States. It's

0:52:51.680 --> 0:52:54.680
<v Speaker 2>Columbia National Police because they took their country back. Yeah.

0:52:54.760 --> 0:52:57.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, no, it always comes across when I hear you

0:52:57.520 --> 0:53:01.640
<v Speaker 1>talk about giving the tribute to to the sacrifices they

0:53:01.719 --> 0:53:03.719
<v Speaker 1>made as well. But look it's been an honor and

0:53:03.760 --> 0:53:06.760
<v Speaker 1>the privilege and I've really enjoyed, enjoyed the chaps.

0:53:07.200 --> 0:53:08.279
<v Speaker 2>Take care of again.

0:53:08.360 --> 0:53:09.560
<v Speaker 1>You look like you're enjoying life.

0:53:10.000 --> 0:53:12.080
<v Speaker 2>Life is good. I'm sitting at the beach right now,

0:53:12.120 --> 0:53:15.840
<v Speaker 2>so there you got good stuff. Thanks for having me on.

0:53:15.920 --> 0:53:16.239
<v Speaker 2>Thank you.