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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: In the second part of my chat with former DA

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Speaker 1: agent Steve Murphy, we talk about how Pablo Escobar was

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Speaker 1: tracked down and killed in a violent shoetout. We talk

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Speaker 1: about the impact the investigation had on Steve and his

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Speaker 1: partner Javier, and the Columbian police who put their lives

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Speaker 1: on the line to restore peace to their country. We

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Speaker 1: also talk about his experience in the investigation being portrayed

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Speaker 1: in the hugely popular TV series Narcos. It's a fascinating chat. Steve,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to part two. If I catch killers. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: Let's continue this wild story. And yeah, no wonder they

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Speaker 1: made a TV series out of this investigation, and we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about Narcos TV series and it's a

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Speaker 1: great series, I've got to say on Netflix. But before

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Speaker 1: we do, there's a bit of work to do before

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Speaker 1: you start swamping round as the person that's portrayed on

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Speaker 1: the TV series we've talked about Pablo Escobar, is there

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Speaker 1: one thing that defines him, like how ruthless he was?

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Speaker 1: You talk in part one that he didn't have a

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Speaker 1: conscience and that he could just kill without a second thought.

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Speaker 1: Is there one thing that demonstrates to the listeners what

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Speaker 1: was the evilness or something that typified the evilness of

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Speaker 1: the man.

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Speaker 2: He was in his prison, this custom built prison, the cathedral,

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Speaker 2: and they're actually he's on the phone with his wife

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Speaker 2: talking and we're, you know, we're intercepting the phone calls,

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Speaker 2: and he's talking about how much he loves her and

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Speaker 2: how much he misses her and how are the kids

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Speaker 2: and all that, and in the background you can hear

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Speaker 2: a guy screaming he's being tortured, you know, and eventually

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Speaker 2: his wife said, what is that noise? And he's like,

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Speaker 2: hold on a minute. He covers up the you know,

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Speaker 2: I assume he cover up the receiver, and you can

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Speaker 2: hear him say cover his mouth, shut him up, and

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Speaker 2: then he gets real quiet, so you know, they killed

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Speaker 2: the guy. And then he's just right back on a yeah. Well,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'll come and see you guys soon, and

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Speaker 2: you know, you guys have to come to visit me,

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Speaker 2: and just you know, like nothing happened.

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Speaker 1: Just that set no conscience whatsoever.

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Speaker 2: The indiscriminate car bombs that were just he set a

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Speaker 2: car bomb off on fifteenth Street in Bogata one time,

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Speaker 2: in the northern part of the city. And right where

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Speaker 2: that bomb went off as a mall and it was

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Speaker 2: the whole the size of a city block, and the

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Speaker 2: whole front of the mall was glass. So when that

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Speaker 2: bomb went off, you know what happened to the glass.

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Speaker 2: It happened to be a time when moms were there

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Speaker 2: with their school aged children getting school supplies. So Homy

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Speaker 2: and I we were spawn down there. We get a

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Speaker 2: phone call about it, We take off and go down there,

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Speaker 2: you can't get very close. You can see the black

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Speaker 2: smoke from where the bomb went off, but you can't

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Speaker 2: get very close because traffic just bogs down. So we

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Speaker 2: park and we get out, and we were walking in

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Speaker 2: and as you get closer, you start hearing the sounds

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Speaker 2: associated with tragedy, you know, the screams and the crying

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Speaker 2: and the begging and all that kind of stuff. And

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Speaker 2: then you get closer and you actually start seeing body

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Speaker 2: parts laying around. And then you get up to the

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Speaker 2: scene and you see the firemen and the police officers

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Speaker 2: carrying the lifeless bodies of little children who just simply

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Speaker 2: were in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's

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Speaker 2: probably the most horrific thing I saw while we were

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Speaker 2: down there. Just it's there's there's no way you can

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Speaker 2: justify something like that.

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Speaker 1: That's the results of these actions. What were the circumstances

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Speaker 1: with the luxury self designed prison that he was resulting in?

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Speaker 1: What were the circumstances of him escaping from the How

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Speaker 1: did that come about?

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Speaker 2: We got this from an individual who eventually became an

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Speaker 2: informative ours and eventually became of the biggest drug dealer

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Speaker 2: in Columbia, And who is in prison here in the

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Speaker 2: United States now. So he was the bodyguard for one

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Speaker 2: of Pablo's childhood friends, a guy named Kiko Mankada. Qiko

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Speaker 2: and Pablo grew up together. He was one of the

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Speaker 2: primary lieutenants. And there was another guy named Fernando Galliano. Well,

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Speaker 2: when Pablo went into prison, he imposed attacks or war

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Speaker 2: tax on all the other drug draftickers, and he said,

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Speaker 2: you know, look, I've fronted myself out for the good

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Speaker 2: of all of you. I've embarrassed myself. I'm in prison now,

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Speaker 2: you know, country club prison. He said, So what's going

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Speaker 2: to happ happen is every load that you send up,

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Speaker 2: I get half of it, or you pay me four

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Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars cash. Okay. So then they were doing

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Speaker 2: it well. After a while they got tired of doing it. Well.

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Speaker 2: One day hits the carrios going out and they find

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Speaker 2: a cave that there's this money US dollars that have

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Speaker 2: been shrink wrapped and hidden in a cave, and the

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Speaker 2: shrink wrap has come loose, and so air and moisture

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Speaker 2: has been getting in there, and all this money is

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Speaker 2: rotting away. And we've heard this anywhere from ten million

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Speaker 2: to twenty three million dollars. So they bring it in.

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Speaker 2: They show Pabula like, look, this is Kiko and Fernando's money,

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Speaker 2: and they're holding out on you. You know, here you

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Speaker 2: are fronting yourself out and you're not making all the

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Speaker 2: billions that you were before because you've taken a stance

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Speaker 2: against the government. You're trying to do good for everybody else.

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Speaker 2: And they get him all fired up. So he has

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Speaker 2: somebody make phone calls and they call the Galliano's and

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Speaker 2: they call him Moncadas and said, hey, come on up

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Speaker 2: to the prison. We're going to have a barbecue. No

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Speaker 2: business discussed. We're just gonna have good time. Bring some

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Speaker 2: hookers in and we'll have some mariachis. Come men or whatever.

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Speaker 2: No need to bring security details. Everything's good. So they

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Speaker 2: show up. Well Kiko, according to our source, Kiko comes

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Speaker 2: walking in and he sees the money there on the floor,

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Speaker 2: and he looks at Pablo and sees a look on

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Speaker 2: his face and he starts saying, Pablo, that's not what

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Speaker 2: you think it is. We're not holding out on you.

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Speaker 2: That's money that's been buried for a long time. Quite honestly,

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Speaker 2: we had forgotten about it. And if you think about it.

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Speaker 2: For moisture and water to get in there, to start

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Speaker 2: writing away paper. That doesn't happen in a few days,

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Speaker 2: I mean that takes months and months and months of time.

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Speaker 2: So the Cicarios are egging Pablo on he he cheated you, Pablo,

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Speaker 2: kill him. You need to kill these two, and so

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Speaker 2: eventually they go back and forth, and Pablo gets so

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Speaker 2: incensed that he grabs a stick and he kills his

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Speaker 2: childhood best friend, Kiko Moncada, beats him to death. Then

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Speaker 2: the Ccarios they jump on Fernando Galliano. They do the

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Speaker 2: same to him. Then they started cutting parts of their

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Speaker 2: bodies off and sending them to their families and saying,

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Speaker 2: you owe me this, You owe me that you know,

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Speaker 2: and if you want, everyone want to see him again,

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Speaker 2: and this is what you got to do. You know,

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Speaker 2: the families didn't know they were already dead. Well, eventually

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Speaker 2: word got out to us about it through this informant,

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Speaker 2: and we went to our bosses and the ambassador, and

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Speaker 2: eventually it went to the President of Columbia, and the

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Speaker 2: message was do something about this. This is ridiculous. This

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Speaker 2: is embarrassing to your country. It's embarrassing to your administration,

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Speaker 2: you've got to do something. So they come up with

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Speaker 2: an idea that they're going to tell Pablo, Okay, we're

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Speaker 2: going to temporarily move you to a different prison so

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Speaker 2: we can reinforce your prison to make it more secure

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Speaker 2: for you. And it's all a ruse. Well, they send

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Speaker 2: the deputy Justice minister up there. This kid, Mendoza is

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Speaker 2: like twenty five years old. He goes up with a

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Speaker 2: Columbian colonel, military colonel to take like twenty troops up there.

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Speaker 2: Get to the gate outside. Now, remember who's paying the

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Speaker 2: guards on inside the gate, So they're not.

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Speaker 1: Loyal to the guts, they loyalty.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So the deputy Justice miner looks over the colonel says, colonel,

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Speaker 2: go get him. Or el said, resident, tell me, he

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Speaker 2: didn't tell me to go in there. He told you

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Speaker 2: to go, and I'm not going in there. You go

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Speaker 2: get him. So this young guy twenty five years old

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Speaker 2: goes in there. Well, of course the Sagario is immediately

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Speaker 2: taking hostage and they're slapping him around and they're trying

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Speaker 2: to get Pablo Pablo kill him. This is the message

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Speaker 2: from the president, they don't respect you and all that stuff. Well,

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Speaker 2: Pablo tells the Justice minister, get the president on the phone. Well,

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Speaker 2: he's calling. Before the president would take Pablo's calls, believe

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Speaker 2: it or not, but this time nobody's answering the phone.

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Speaker 2: So Pablo kind of sees the writing on the ball.

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Speaker 2: They realize that they don't have enough troops up there

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Speaker 2: to assault the prison, so now they send an elite

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Speaker 2: group of military folks called the Copas, and they go

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Speaker 2: in and they assault the prison, big firefight. Not a

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Speaker 2: single good guy was wounded that day, believe it or not.

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Speaker 2: And the deputy Justice Minister, they were able to get

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Speaker 2: him out unscathed, which is just a miracle. Some of

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Speaker 2: the guards were killed, Pablo's guards. A lot of cacarios

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Speaker 2: were able to escape, not all of them. Some of

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Speaker 2: them chose to stay in the prison. So recently, Jama

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Speaker 2: had done some work for one of the Spanish speaking

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Speaker 2: stations down to Columbia about the Escobar story, and in exchange,

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Speaker 2: they had access to these photographs. So the press had

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Speaker 2: shown up at the prison because you know, the words

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Speaker 2: out that something's going on up there at the cathedral,

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Speaker 2: and this one photographer he got up there, he saw everybody,

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Speaker 2: you know, all the other presses there, worldwide press, and

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Speaker 2: so he goes around and he somehow knows how to

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Speaker 2: get around to the backside of the prison and he's

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Speaker 2: walking in and here comes Pablo and some of his

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Speaker 2: henchmen and the guy the story is the cameraman. He

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Speaker 2: laid his cameras down and put his hands up. He says, Pablo, Pablo,

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Speaker 2: please don't kill me. You know, I went to this

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Speaker 2: front gate. My producers told me to go get pictures.

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Speaker 2: It's crowded up there. I thought I'd just come around

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Speaker 2: and see what's happening. Prob washed to get your camera,

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Speaker 2: take your camera and take pictures of me. I'm a

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Speaker 2: dead man walking, so that camera and held onto those pictures.

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Speaker 2: He died recently and his family gave him to this.

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Speaker 2: I think he was a Univision Univision and so because

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Speaker 2: of the work Hobbier had done with them, they gave

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Speaker 2: us license to use these pictures. So we now have

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Speaker 2: three photographs that this camera took of Pablo, and I

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Speaker 2: think it's four of his henchmen making their escape, and

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Speaker 2: you can see some of them have guns, you know,

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Speaker 2: pistols tucked in their waistband. It's not like they're running,

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Speaker 2: you know, scared, they're just they're just getting away. Well,

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Speaker 2: you know, I'm always I've always wondered if you know

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Speaker 2: there wasn't some green passed hands along the way, because

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Speaker 2: how do you escape from the prison surrounded? How do

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Speaker 2: you escape?

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Speaker 1: And if you've got an elite team coming in and

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Speaker 1: taking the Zakarias out, how they go to why? But well,

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Speaker 1: it's yeah, if it didn't happen, you have to invent it.

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Speaker 1: It's crazy. He he gets out that. So the tuns

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Speaker 1: you your world upside down for the next eighteen months

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Speaker 1: because you and Javier are asked to be stationed down

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Speaker 1: in Medeleine, and you worked with a lot of different sections,

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Speaker 1: and I know you pay a lot of tribute to

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Speaker 1: the Colombian National Police absolutely, and the courage of those

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Speaker 1: guys and the search block. This is a quote from

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Speaker 1: your book when he was on the run, just to

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Speaker 1: give you a sense of what happened after he escaped.

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Speaker 1: Between the twenty second of July nineteen ninety two, when

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Speaker 1: Escobar escaped and mid March nineteen ninety three, one hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty six police officers had been killed in the

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Speaker 1: line of duty by Escobar's hitmen. So that's one hundred

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Speaker 1: and thirty six police I'm talking about. The death tolls

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Speaker 1: throughout the country had also increased. Columbia had seen it

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Speaker 1: steadly this year, with nearly twenty nine thousand homicides reported

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety two, compared to twenty five thy one

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Speaker 1: hundred and ten for the previous year. In Medelline and Bogata,

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Speaker 1: one hundred and twelve Savilians had died from random car

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Speaker 1: bomb attacks and four hundred twenty seven had been injured.

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Speaker 1: It's just on the sky that's hired to comprehend, and

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Speaker 1: that that's in that passage of time when he was

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Speaker 1: on the run, when you guys were part of the team,

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Speaker 1: uh tas we're tracking him down.

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Speaker 2: It was it's it's I mean, I'm sure it's the

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Speaker 2: same in Australia. If an Australian police officer is killed

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Speaker 2: in the line of duty. Here in the United States,

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Speaker 2: we stop everything. Everybody stops to contribute to the case

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Speaker 2: to get that guy. When here you're talking about over

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Speaker 2: one hundred and thirty police officers and what about a

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Speaker 2: six or seven month period were murdered. Pablo put a

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Speaker 2: bounty on him of one hundred dollars each. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that was a police officer's life was one hundred bucks.

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Speaker 2: It's ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: And that was that was just anyone could collect that bounty.

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Speaker 1: Just take take out a call there was.

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Speaker 2: Javier was with We worked with a very elite unit

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Speaker 2: of Plumbing National Police officers and they got to call

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Speaker 2: one night that one of the sacarios was at this

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Speaker 2: nightclub and they didn't have enough body. So Hovier went

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Speaker 2: along with them and h this kid's fifteen years old.

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Speaker 2: He's out on the dance floor with his girlfriend. They

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Speaker 2: go out and grab He's got a gun in his waistband.

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Speaker 2: They wrestle him, he fights, They get him down the floor,

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Speaker 2: get him cuffed up, and take him out. Well, this

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Speaker 2: kid talks, you know, he doesn't know he's not supposed

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Speaker 2: to talk. He said, he had already killed I think

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Speaker 2: it was something like ten police officers. And how you're asking,

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Speaker 2: he said, how do you do this? He said, Well,

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Speaker 2: you just you know, these uniform guys they're walking the

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Speaker 2: streets and they stop and talk to each other or

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Speaker 2: stop to talk to people in the street, and you

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Speaker 2: just walk up behind him and shoot him in the

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Speaker 2: back of the head. He said, the most I've killed

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Speaker 2: him one day was three and then you go to

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Speaker 2: an address and you tell him, and you know, they

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Speaker 2: give you one hundred dollars for each cop that you've killed.

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Speaker 2: And HWY said, what do you do with the money?

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Speaker 2: He said, well, most of it I give to my

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Speaker 2: mom because she had you know, she was one of

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Speaker 2: those people living on the edge of a trash dump.

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Speaker 2: And he said, I keep enough money for myself. I

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Speaker 2: don't have a nice pair of tennis shoes, nice pair

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Speaker 2: of jeans, and I need beer money. But everything else,

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Speaker 2: she gets everything else. And I thought, just no remorse whatsoever.

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Speaker 2: But or a woman that's brave enough to put a

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Speaker 2: uniform on and your life is worth one hundred dollars.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know you guys had a lot of respect

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Speaker 1: for the courage that they had. What about yourself and Javier,

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Speaker 1: like I read somewhere or that you had a bounty

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Speaker 1: on you for three hundred thousand with the greatest respect,

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Speaker 1: you would sort of stand out in Columbia and people

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Speaker 1: would know who you are. So how how did you

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Speaker 1: feel with what was going on?

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I mean, we're cops. You don't show fear,

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Speaker 2: but you know, when you first find out about it,

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Speaker 2: it's like, that's all I'm worthing more than three hundred

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars. But the truth is, it's very disconcerting to

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Speaker 2: start with. It's like, holy cow, this guy's got a

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Speaker 2: bounty on me. And you're right. I mean, my family,

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Speaker 2: my grandmother immigrated from England. My dad's family immigrated from Ireland.

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Speaker 2: I'm about as white as you get. I don't blend

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Speaker 2: into it Hispanic country. You know. I'm six to two,

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Speaker 2: I have light colored eyes. I used to have brown

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Speaker 2: colored hair. I just kind of stick out.

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Speaker 1: But the gring Gay and that they would have known

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Speaker 1: that you guys would like the intel and you couldn't

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Speaker 1: trust everyone that was involved in the investigation, so they

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Speaker 1: would have very much known who you guys were.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean, we were going out on so back

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Speaker 2: of a second, the embassy told us, the ambassadors, I

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Speaker 2: don't want you guys going out in the field. You

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Speaker 2: stay at the police base. Well that's we can't do

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Speaker 2: our job if we do stay beneck in the back.

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Speaker 2: And you know, we had we had the US Navy

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Speaker 2: Seal Team six was there with us. We had the

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Speaker 2: US Armies Delta FORCET. They were there with us. Of course,

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Speaker 2: the CIA's in there. They're coming and going as they want.

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Speaker 2: The military guys or under the same orders as us. Well,

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Speaker 2: they're military, so they follow orders. We kind of looked

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Speaker 2: at them as strong suggestions instead of orders. And so

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Speaker 2: I mean, just just to match, You're still on the

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Speaker 2: job there and in uh Australia, and I come to

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Speaker 2: your country, and I tell you, Gary, I heard there's

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Speaker 2: Pablo Escobars down there at the pub. Man, go see

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Speaker 2: if he's down there. I'm gonna get a couple of

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Speaker 2: coffee and come back and tell me what you find.

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Speaker 2: What are you gonna tell me? I know what you're

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Speaker 2: gonna tell me that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, one, I understand, but I like the way it's

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Speaker 1: just a suggestion that wasn't an order. But I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: I'm misunderstood.

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Speaker 2: But uh well, But but what that led to is

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Speaker 2: we were going out on operations every day with with

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Speaker 2: this unit that we worked with Dehean was the name

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Speaker 2: of the unit. And we're going out on the Huey

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Speaker 2: gunships doing raids on ranches, and we're going out and

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Speaker 2: doing patrols in the mountains with the Columbia National Police

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Speaker 2: and we're doing surveillance in the city, and we're paying

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Speaker 2: informants and we're meeting snitches. We had a one eight

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Speaker 2: hundred tip line set up offering a five million dollar

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Speaker 2: reward for information on Pablo. It was it was exciting.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's very exciting. There were times, especially if

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Speaker 2: we were in the city, they would they had an

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Speaker 2: armored personnel carrier, and so if we were doing stuff

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Speaker 2: in the city, especially for going over into the barrios

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Speaker 2: where Pablo's you know, he's the hero, they would put

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Speaker 2: me inside the armored car just to protect me a

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Speaker 2: little bit more. But you know, and you had a

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Speaker 2: machine gunner on top. And but then when you know,

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Speaker 2: when it's trying to clean up my language, when the

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Speaker 2: ship hits the fan, you know, you don't run away.

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Speaker 2: You got to stand there and fight.

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Speaker 1: Well, it's a big difference from where you started your

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Speaker 1: law enforcement a lot. There was a d A agent

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Speaker 1: that was abducted by a cartel in Mexico, and you

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Speaker 1: think that played a part that the consequences do you

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Speaker 1: want to just explain to the listeners what the circumstances

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Speaker 1: of that was. It was a horrific situation, but the

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Speaker 1: response is probably, you know, protected people down the track.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to explain that those circumstances.

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Speaker 2: Gladly Well, that was the case of Kiki or Enrique.

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Speaker 2: Kiki came Marina was our agent's name. This is in

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five. He had been stationed. Kiki was a

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Speaker 2: former US marine. He'd been a cop in Glexico, California,

358
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Speaker 2: before Dea joined EA, did time down on the border,

359
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Speaker 2: got a volunteer to go to Guandalajara in Mexico. He

360
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Speaker 2: was actually born in Mexico, so he spoke perfect Spanish.

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Speaker 2: He's down there. He just kicking button, taking names. You know.

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Speaker 2: The problem back then was was these massive marijuana grows,

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Speaker 2: the ones up in the mountains. The quality wasn't as good,

364
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Speaker 2: but the Mexican traffickers learned about sinsimilia, which is something

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Speaker 2: that American marijuana growers just developed, and it basically they

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Speaker 2: took the seeds out of the plants and it made

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Speaker 2: it a much more potent strain of marijuana. So, through

368
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Speaker 2: payoffs and so forth, they bought this desert land and

369
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Speaker 2: they had to drill these massive wells to get water

370
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Speaker 2: because marijuana grows require a lot of water. So Kiki

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Speaker 2: gets information through an informant, and at one point the

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Speaker 2: government of Mexico would let the United States do flyovers

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Speaker 2: looking for marijuana fields or poppy fields because of Mexican heroin. Well,

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Speaker 2: a new president comes in and he bans all that.

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Speaker 2: So now Kiki's relying on informants, and apparently he had

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Speaker 2: the knack for dealing with informants. He has one that's

377
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Speaker 2: a pilot. He gets information where there's this massive marijuana grow.

378
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Speaker 2: I think that one was two hundred acres. They do

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Speaker 2: a couple of flyovers which were illegal, and confirmed it

380
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Speaker 2: was there, got the Mexican police to go raid the place,

381
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Speaker 2: and I forget how much it was capable of producing,

382
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Speaker 2: but two hundred acres of marijuana plants just massive. Well,

383
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Speaker 2: then as time goes on, he finds out about this

384
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Speaker 2: other grow. This time it was twenty five hundred acres,

385
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Speaker 2: two five hundred acres, just massive, and they rated that.

386
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Speaker 2: I think they said that that field alone was capable

387
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Speaker 2: of four billion dollars of weed per grow, and I

388
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Speaker 2: think you could grow it at least twice a year

389
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Speaker 2: down there. So that led to him, you know, he

390
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Speaker 2: was ready to rotate out of Guadala horor back to

391
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Speaker 2: the United States. But these three drug traffickers Raphael carl Countero,

392
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Speaker 2: Miguel On Hell Felix Gayardo, and the third guy's name

393
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Speaker 2: was Fan Saic I can't remember his full name. Those

394
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Speaker 2: are the three guys that started the Guadara Guadalajara cartel

395
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Speaker 2: in Mexico. So they orchestrated a kidnapp had Kiki came

396
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Speaker 2: out of the consulate in Guadalajarra to go meet his

397
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Speaker 2: wife for lunch. They surrounding kidnapp him, taking him to

398
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Speaker 2: a house. He's torture for over thirty hours. He's actually

399
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Speaker 2: killed three different times. They've got a doctor there that

400
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Speaker 2: when the first two times when he died, they would

401
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,359
Speaker 2: inject adrenaline into his heart to restart his heart so

402
00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,760
Speaker 2: they could kill him again. It's just horrific what they

403
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Speaker 2: did to Kiki. And they also did the same thing

404
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Speaker 2: to the pilot I think his name was Zavala. Then

405
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,400
Speaker 2: you know, of course Dea realizes that Keiki's missing because

406
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Speaker 2: he didn't show up for wife, his lunch with his wife,

407
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:55,159
Speaker 2: and then he done show Homan that night, and so

408
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Speaker 2: this massive man hunt is underway. The United States starts

409
00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,399
Speaker 2: supplying pressure to the Mexican government. Finally they create they

410
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Speaker 2: just designate somebody to be a scapegoat and they kill

411
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Speaker 2: them and throw them out and said, okay, there's the

412
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Speaker 2: guy killed Kiki and the pilot. Well, the United States

413
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 2: knew that wasn't true. So our president back at the time,

414
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Speaker 2: and I'm not sure we have presidents that have these

415
00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:19,680
Speaker 2: kind of honas now, but the president back then shut

416
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Speaker 2: down the border between the United States and Mexico. It

417
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,280
Speaker 2: took less than one day for the Mexican government come

418
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Speaker 2: back and say, okay, okay, we're back in. I think

419
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Speaker 2: it took thirty days before they finally found Kiki's body.

420
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Speaker 2: Him and the pilot were wrapped up in plastic. Seeing

421
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Speaker 2: that what the response of the United States was, and

422
00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:40,919
Speaker 2: it might be the same now because we have a

423
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Speaker 2: new president. But past administrations would certainly not have gone

424
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,800
Speaker 2: to those links because the d agent was killed. So

425
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:52,919
Speaker 2: if you think about it, the drug traffickers are in

426
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 2: business to make money. If you shut down the border,

427
00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 2: they can't get the product into the United States, where

428
00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:00,200
Speaker 2: you know, we're the leading consumer country of ill legal

429
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,439
Speaker 2: narcotics in the world. That's a reputation we truly enjoy having.

430
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 2: It's outrageous. But they knew that if I mean we

431
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,560
Speaker 2: had wire taps, one wire tap, we're Pablo's talking makes

432
00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 2: reference to the two gringos, and then a short time

433
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,879
Speaker 2: later he actually mentions the name's Penyon Murphy. That was

434
00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:18,800
Speaker 2: worse than finding out there's a three hundred thousand dollars

435
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 2: bounds in just guys knew your name.

436
00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 1: But then it becomes personal.

437
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, so if I think Pablo knew

438
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,440
Speaker 2: that if he really took us out, they could have

439
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 2: killed us numerous times. I mean that we're out on operations,

440
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 2: anything could happen. But then you know they're not going

441
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 2: to make the money that that's what they're in business for.

442
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,120
Speaker 2: So that's why we say Kiki's legacy.

443
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's passed on them. I suppose it gives

444
00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 1: a sense that there's going to be a reaction that

445
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 1: people don't want to coming if something happens to people

446
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,920
Speaker 1: like yourself. I'm glad that so the response was done

447
00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:02,360
Speaker 1: because that's the topic response it's needed, right, So what

448
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 1: were the strategies got him out of prison? He's creating

449
00:23:06,320 --> 00:23:08,920
Speaker 1: chios and chaos is a nice way of putting the

450
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: horrific situation with people being killed, left, frought and center.

451
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 1: What were the strategies to bring him down? And the

452
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,400
Speaker 1: people that you're working with to to yeah, find you.

453
00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:22,880
Speaker 2: Well with the IRO ambassador brought in the Seal Team

454
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 2: Sex and the Delta Force guys, the operators, these the

455
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,120
Speaker 2: Delton Seals guys. They brought in assets that we didn't

456
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 2: have access to, so they were able to glean intelligence

457
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,680
Speaker 2: that we were getting real time intelligence that hey, Pablo's here,

458
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 2: Pablo's there. And this is in the first few weeks.

459
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,600
Speaker 2: I remember we went to a huge church and just

460
00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 2: searched that in the middle of the night when we

461
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,280
Speaker 2: finally we were able to get out, get some troops

462
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 2: to go and and just you know, we searched for

463
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,159
Speaker 2: a couple of hours, couldn't find a thing. And you know,

464
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 2: the the lower ranking Columbian officers or they're getting tired

465
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 2: and they were just want to go back to the

466
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 2: barracks and sleep and and I'm not wanting to leave.

467
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:05,840
Speaker 2: And Taivea is the same way. We got to keep going,

468
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,720
Speaker 2: got to keep going, got to keep going, and eventually,

469
00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 2: you know, the commander of the unit comes over and

470
00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 2: he's like, look, but we're going, we're going. We can't

471
00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,360
Speaker 2: find it. He's not here, and it's it just over

472
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 2: and over. There was times when we hit one cabin

473
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,520
Speaker 2: and the coffee was still warm in the mug, there

474
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,199
Speaker 2: was a cigarette and the ashtray still burning, you know.

475
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 2: And Pop Poplo was known he liked. He had it

476
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 2: this fetish for fancy bathrooms, you know, gold plated fixtures

477
00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 2: and things like that, you go in these little shannies

478
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 2: and and but it had a really nice bathroom. You

479
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,960
Speaker 2: knew that was Poblo's, you know, one of his places, okay,

480
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 2: And he'd always have he'd have a lady in there cooking,

481
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 2: and they'd have a young girl in there as the

482
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 2: cleaning lady. But more like you know, his personal enjoyment

483
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 2: type things.

484
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,080
Speaker 1: Okay, So what was the what was the thing that fondly,

485
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:56,880
Speaker 1: uh like kated him?

486
00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 2: It was, Well, so Colonel Ugo Martinez is our boss.

487
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 2: He's the guy in charge of the blokie de busca

488
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,280
Speaker 2: the search box what it translates to. And his son

489
00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 2: is a lieutenant, Lieutenant Ugo Martinez. Well, the lieutenant taught

490
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 2: himself how to use radio directional finding equipment. The government

491
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 2: of France donated a bunch of vans that had radio

492
00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 2: directional finding equipment mounted in them, and the algorithm that

493
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:26,440
Speaker 2: they used back then was triangulation, which is pretty simple

494
00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 2: to figure out. You know, Medine's built in a bowl.

495
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 2: So you put three vans up on high spots. They

496
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,920
Speaker 2: shoot the signal out where the three signals intersect. That's

497
00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 2: where Pablo's phone is coming from. Because it wasn't three G,

498
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 2: four G, five G phones like we enjoy today. They

499
00:25:40,280 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 2: were basically radio telephones. If he wanted to he knew

500
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: we were listening. If he wanted to thwart our efforts

501
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 2: to listen to him, all he had to do is

502
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:51,000
Speaker 2: change frequency. But the challenge to him was he had

503
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 2: to get the new frequency to the people he wanted

504
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 2: to talk to. So it wasn't quite as easy to

505
00:25:55,359 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 2: spend that dial. So they get they get the triangulation.

506
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 2: They triangulate on the signal. The margin of error back

507
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,239
Speaker 2: that time could be two three city blocks large. So

508
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 2: to refine that, to refine that area down, you send

509
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:15,320
Speaker 2: somebody in with holding an antenna out the car window,

510
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 2: driving down the street. And that was Lieutenant Martinez. He's

511
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 2: he's got a meter in one hand, he's got driver

512
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,920
Speaker 2: driving him and he's driving down the street. He gets us.

513
00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 2: He thinks he's found this warehouse, and so they bring

514
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 2: the Deheen guys in, they launch an operation. It's an

515
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 2: empty warehouse. So, I mean, you know the grief he

516
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,160
Speaker 2: caught from all the other cops because like, oh, you idiot,

517
00:26:35,320 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 2: you know, I mean, you know how we are.

518
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:42,800
Speaker 1: You make a mistake, you pay for it, and you ridicule.

519
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 2: Yes do So he what he did is he found

520
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 2: there was a body of water next to the this warehouse,

521
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 2: and water will affect the way that radio waves passed

522
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,000
Speaker 2: through the air. So he recalibrated his equipment to uh

523
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 2: include that water area, and he gets another hit. So

524
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 2: he's driving down the street holding this antenta out the window.

525
00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 2: He says, we've got a reenactment video where he's actually interviewed,

526
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 2: and he looks up and he says he sees Pablo

527
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 2: Escobar on the phone talking looking at him. Well, we're

528
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 2: listening to the phone call on the wire tap. There's

529
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 2: never any we listened to this a lot of times.

530
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,359
Speaker 2: There's never any indication that Pablo saw Lieutenant Martinez or

531
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 2: this man driving down the street holding an antenna out

532
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 2: the window, which was, you know, something you don't see

533
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 2: every day. And the only explanation we've ever come up

534
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: with is like when you ask me a question, I'm

535
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 2: reliving a lot of things in my mind, and I'm

536
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 2: seeing you on the screen, but I'm more in my

537
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:42,480
Speaker 2: mind reliving things I don't I mean, you could pick

538
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 2: your nose, I probably wouldn't even pick up.

539
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 1: On it because I didn't by that allegation stuff I

540
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: was not and I didn't see it.

541
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 2: I didn't see it. So and that's the only thing

542
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 2: we can every only explanation we ever came up with. Well,

543
00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: now you've got one hundred percent confirmation there's Pablo in

544
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 2: this row house. So I'm back at the base and

545
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 2: I'm actually in the room with all the gringoes talking

546
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,360
Speaker 2: because you know, it's just kind of nice to talk

547
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 2: to your countryman every once in a while and just

548
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 2: you're talking sports or whatever, girlfriends or whatever. And I

549
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 2: see it. We're in this quad area, and I see

550
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 2: the executive staff for the colonel as majors and his

551
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 2: lieutenant colonel's running across the squad and that's you know,

552
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 2: that's clue something's going on. So I told the gringoes.

553
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 2: I said, hey, man, something's happening. I'll be right back.

554
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 2: And so I go to the Colonel Martinez's office. And

555
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 2: we had in a good enough relationship, a mutual respect

556
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 2: that he sees me at the door and he said,

557
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 2: come on. He come on in, and he's on the

558
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,439
Speaker 2: phone with the lieutenant and he's giving him instructure. He's like, okay,

559
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: he says, we've got Pablo located without you know, with

560
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 2: one hundred percent margin of air or no margin of

561
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: air whatsoever. Colonel saying, okay, we're loading up the troops. Well,

562
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 2: loading up six hundred people takes a while. You know,

563
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:51,480
Speaker 2: you can't knock it out in five or ten minutes,

564
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 2: he said. But whatever you do, don't let him get away.

565
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,840
Speaker 2: Surround it and keep him there. Don't let him get away. Well,

566
00:28:56,840 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 2: these the heen guys, they interpreted to that to meus

567
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 2: go get him. The American operators had taught them how

568
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,720
Speaker 2: to use debt cord to blow doors open. So they

569
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 2: this is a three story rowhouse. They line the front door,

570
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,360
Speaker 2: blow the door off, the engines, they go in. The

571
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 2: first floor is a combination garage, kitchen, laundry room or

572
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 2: cleaning room. Maybe made's quarters back there. Then you go

573
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: to the second floor and there's a living room, there's

574
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 2: a couple bedrooms, and the third floors all bedrooms and bathrooms.

575
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,760
Speaker 2: So as they get up to the second floor, they

576
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:33,719
Speaker 2: clear the first floor. They go to the second floor,

577
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 2: there's Pablo running up to the third floor. They exchange

578
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 2: shots with each other. One police officer actually tripped on

579
00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 2: the steps, which saved his life because Pablo shot at

580
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: him right at that time and it went right over

581
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 2: top of his head. Poblo at one time had as

582
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 2: many as five hundred cicario as protecting him. On December second,

583
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety three, he was down to one guy. His

584
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 2: nickname was lemon On I can't remember his real name.

585
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:03,480
Speaker 2: Lemon gets to the third floor window. The rowhouse behind

586
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 2: him was a two story, so he could jump out

587
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 2: that window onto the roof of this two story and

588
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 2: then they were going to make their escape out the

589
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 2: back way well. The cops had sent a couple guys

590
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: around the back. They ordered Lemona to drop his we

591
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 2: weapons and surrender. He starts shooting at him from the

592
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 2: roof and they tune him up and he falls off

593
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 2: dead onto the ground. Now Pablo gets up to that

594
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 2: third window, or that third floor, and that window he

595
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 2: knows good guys are coming up steps. Now he's heard

596
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,600
Speaker 2: this shooting outside, so he knows there's good guys out there,

597
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 2: and he knows he's in a crossfire. He goes in

598
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 2: and jumps out the roof. The building next to this

599
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 2: two story was another three stories, so there's a wall

600
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 2: here and Pablo is trying to inch along that wall

601
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: to see where the guys are on the ground. These

602
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: guys are coming up to the front window. He's like,

603
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 2: screw it. He takes off a run across the roof,

604
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 2: shooting at them, shooting at them. They catch him in

605
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:55,160
Speaker 2: a crossfire. He's hit three times, once in the back

606
00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 2: of the leg, once in the butt cheek, which both

607
00:30:57,760 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 2: of those are knocked down shots, but neither one was

608
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 2: a kill shot. And then the kill shot was a

609
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,320
Speaker 2: two twenty three round through the ear. There's a lot

610
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 2: of speculation about that round through the ear. His son,

611
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: Wan Pablo, would have you believe that his dad committed suicide.

612
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 2: I've took the pictures. We don't post those on the

613
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,880
Speaker 2: meat on the internet. But you can see them all

614
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 2: on the internet because people take pricktures during our presentations

615
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 2: and they post them. When I was a city cop,

616
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 2: I've worked murders and I've worked suicides. I'm also a

617
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 2: former fire arms instructor for DEEA. You know that when

618
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 2: you shoot a bullet and it comes out the end

619
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 2: of the barrel, there's little bits of gunpowder that follow

620
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,520
Speaker 2: the bullet out and they'll travel a certain distance before

621
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,239
Speaker 2: they lose their velocity and follow the ground. Even if

622
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: you could hold a gun at arm's length. And remember

623
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 2: it's the two twenty three, So now he's going to

624
00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 2: have to turn a rifle around and shoot himself into ear.

625
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 2: There would be powder burns all over the side of

626
00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 2: his head. You can go online and look those pictures.

627
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 2: I promise you there's not a single powder burn on there.

628
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,120
Speaker 2: So he was killed by the Columbia National Police. It's

629
00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 2: not suicide, you know, the kid. I don't know why.

630
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,160
Speaker 2: You know, maybe if my if Pablo Escobar had been

631
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,480
Speaker 2: my dad, I think I'd like to change the legacy

632
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 2: of his memory too. But that's not true. It's it's

633
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 2: a lie.

634
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: If you'll you have sayen that in a gunshop residue

635
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: there when it happened. You've you've come out shortly after,

636
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 1: and some of some of the five days that you

637
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 1: talk about, the five days that have been at in

638
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 1: the public, they were five days that you actually talk.

639
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: Right, you know. You see on a Narco series it

640
00:32:28,720 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 2: shows that I was on the roof when Pablo was killed.

641
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 2: That's not true. I wrote out after the fact with

642
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 2: Colonel Martinez and his jeep.

643
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 1: And when when you got there, you had to go there,

644
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: I identify him and just corroborate the fact that it

645
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: is him. How did you feel.

646
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 2: When one of the majors on the de Henion after

647
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 2: they killed Pablo, he comes back in radio's back Viva Columbia.

648
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 2: Pablo is dead. I took off running over to the

649
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 2: wire room to call the embassy to you know, because

650
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 2: you've got to let your bosses know what happened. And

651
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 2: so I couldn't get through to the d A office

652
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: to the front office. So I ended up calling our

653
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 2: admin office. When the secretary's answered and she's like, oh, hey, Steve,

654
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 2: how you doing. I'm like, go get mister Taff was

655
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 2: our boss. I said, go get mister Toff. Oh okay, is

656
00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 2: everything okay? I'm like, go get mister Toff now, quit

657
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 2: wasting time, you know. And so it took two three

658
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 2: minutes before he came on the phone, which just seemed

659
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,840
Speaker 2: like an eternity because I know that they're mounting up

660
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 2: the troops and getting ready to go out there. When

661
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: mister Toff comes on the phone, the first thing he

662
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 2: says is they just kill Pablo. I'm like, well, no shit,

663
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 2: that's why I'm calling you. And so I told him

664
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: what had happened, and he said, listen, get out there,

665
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 2: confirm this is Pablo. You know, we've been down this

666
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:41,680
Speaker 2: road before where we get our hopes up. Go make

667
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: sure this is Pablo. So I run back to the

668
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 2: barracks to get my gear, you know, a gun and everything,

669
00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 2: and come running back out and everybody is gone. The

670
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 2: only people there are the guards on the gates. I

671
00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 2: don't have a car, I don't know where they are.

672
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: You know, I'm old, dressed up, and no way they

673
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: got exactly right.

674
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 2: So I'm just standing there just trying to go through

675
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 2: my mind. Right, how am I going to do this?

676
00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 2: Maybe I could call a taxi or you know, And

677
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 2: finally here comes Colonel Martinez with his protection detail, driving

678
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 2: back in and he sees me standing out in the

679
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 2: middle of quality. He say, Steve, what are you doing?

680
00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,719
Speaker 2: They actually called me Steak Stick cause they couldn't They

681
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 2: couldn't say Steve, so it came out of Stick. It

682
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 2: was my nickname. He says, Stick, what are you doing?

683
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 2: And I said, I need a ride. Colonel He's like,

684
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,760
Speaker 2: get the jeep, you know. So I ride out with him.

685
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 2: We get out there, We go in the door that

686
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,879
Speaker 2: the Deheen guys had made entry. We searched the first floor,

687
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,440
Speaker 2: take pictures, go to the second floor, take pictures. Get

688
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 2: to the third floor and that's the window. So I

689
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 2: get to that wind and I look out and there's

690
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 2: all our Deheen buddies out there over the body. And

691
00:34:43,080 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 2: I yelled to them and they're all yelling back, holding

692
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,000
Speaker 2: their rifles up. You know, we got him. We got him.

693
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 2: It's Bablo. He's dead. Well now thousands of people are

694
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 2: starting to come out because they just heard this big,

695
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:56,439
Speaker 2: massive gun battle. We've got our six hundred people out there.

696
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 2: Then the Columbian military shows up with a couple hundreds.

697
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just it's great security, but Eventually I

698
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:05,560
Speaker 2: got around back with the colonel and we climbed up

699
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 2: on the roof and that's when I took the pictures

700
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 2: of Pablo, and the whole purpose of that was for

701
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 2: identification purposes. When that was over, we're standing on the

702
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 2: roof and this group of people show up and they're

703
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 2: making a commotion and I looked at one of the

704
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 2: lieutenant Colonels was up there. Colonel Colias was with me

705
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 2: and I said, Colonel, who's that down there? And he said, well,

706
00:35:28,760 --> 00:35:32,360
Speaker 2: that's Pablo's mom and that's Pablo's sister. Like oh really,

707
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,320
Speaker 2: so let's just watch them for a minute. So we

708
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 2: watch them and they're arguing with the police and the military,

709
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 2: and finally his sister she's really loud and obnoxious. She's like,

710
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 2: I want to see you say that's Pablo on the ground.

711
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 2: I want to see him. I want to see that

712
00:35:44,920 --> 00:35:47,760
Speaker 2: that's my brother. So she goes over to where Limonum,

713
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 2: the bodyguard, is laying and she just goes off on

714
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 2: the police. She's like, oh, you idiots, that's not Pablo.

715
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 2: Whiskey bar, you killed the wrong person. You don't even

716
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 2: know what you're doing. And she just lets them have it.

717
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,560
Speaker 2: Finally she calms down and one of the cops looks

718
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 2: at her and look on the roof. Bitch, that's what

719
00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:06,760
Speaker 2: Pablo was, was up on the roof. So I stick

720
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:11,799
Speaker 2: around watched them. Once the mother and the sister saw

721
00:36:11,880 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 2: Pablo's body brought off the roof, and I saw their reaction,

722
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 2: there was no question in my mind whatsoever that was

723
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 2: Pablo Escobar. Now the police were worried about my safety

724
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 2: because you know, we weren't allowed to wear anything that

725
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 2: looked like police and military, so we typically wore, you know,

726
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:33,279
Speaker 2: polo shirts and jeans, tennis shoes, whatever reason. That day

727
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 2: I had a red polo shirt on, which really I

728
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 2: don't stick out enough, so I wrote, wore a red shirt,

729
00:36:37,680 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 2: you know, go figure.

730
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: Good choice.

731
00:36:41,200 --> 00:36:43,560
Speaker 2: So now the press is starting to show up, and

732
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 2: I don't want to be on camera because we don't

733
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 2: want this to look like it was orchestrated by the

734
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:49,799
Speaker 2: United States. We want the Columbia National Police to have

735
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 2: the credit for everything, and rightfully so. So the colonels,

736
00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 2: like Lieutenant Colonel, he said, okay, Steve, we're going to

737
00:36:56,960 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 2: get you back, and so he gave me a protection

738
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 2: detail and they escort me back to the base that night.

739
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,880
Speaker 2: I mean we went into total lockdown. You were you know,

740
00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 2: I know you see this on TV, but you literally

741
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 2: have your gun under your pillow because you're expecting this

742
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 2: retaliatory tax, you know, retaliation from the narcos. Quiet at night,

743
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:17,439
Speaker 2: I ever spent money.

744
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 1: And this was that night.

745
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,520
Speaker 2: Next day they made Hoavier go to Miami to talk

746
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 2: to an informant, which is a bogus trip. We knew

747
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 2: the informant didn't have the information, but the ambassador order

748
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 2: how to go. So he flew back into that pub

749
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,760
Speaker 2: was killed on a Thursday. He flew back to Bogaton

750
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 2: on Thursday night. Friday, he flew up to Median sent

751
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 2: a gunship out to bring him into the base. You know,

752
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 2: high five, congratulations and all that. We were there for

753
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 2: a couple hours, and he and I Friday night flew

754
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:51,160
Speaker 2: back to Bogota and we weren't supposed to ride taxis

755
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,160
Speaker 2: down there because of the danger factor. Well, the embassy

756
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 2: didn't send anybody out to pick us up, so we

757
00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 2: jumped to the taxi went back to the embassy. My

758
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 2: wife was working in the see at that time, and

759
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 2: it's probably six thirty seven o'clock at night, and you know,

760
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 2: she had lots of pizzas and lots of cases of beer,

761
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 2: and we celebrated that night. We got home Saturday morning,

762
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 2: probably about ten thirty eleven o'clock. It was an all nighter.

763
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:19,840
Speaker 2: It was one hell of a party. Well it was,

764
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 2: and that was a long story of your short question.

765
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:25,879
Speaker 2: It felt like the weight of the world had been

766
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 2: lifted off our shoulders. I mean, it's my wife and

767
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 2: I had adopted our first daughter down there in October

768
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,400
Speaker 2: before Pablo was killed, and then I had to go

769
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 2: back to Media Inc. And Monica at that time, she

770
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 2: was at eight months old and we got her and

771
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 2: I'm you know, I'm not even getting to spend any

772
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,160
Speaker 2: time with my new daughter. So it was it was

773
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 2: it's hard to describe. It's just, you know, Wow, he's

774
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 2: finally dead. He's really finally dead.

775
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: And do what was the ongoing reaction from that? Did

776
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:56,480
Speaker 1: it make a difference.

777
00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 2: That's a good question, and a lot of people ask

778
00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 2: us that, especially when we go to the UK. Here's

779
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 2: what we did. We and you you already mentioned the statistics.

780
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 2: In ninety two and ninety three, medi in Columbia was

781
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,200
Speaker 2: the murder capital of the entire world, one of the

782
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 2: most dangerous cities in the world. So we looked at

783
00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 2: the murder rate in Meding prior to Pablo's death, and

784
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 2: then we waited a couple of months and checked the

785
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,800
Speaker 2: murder rate, and you can go. I challenge every audience

786
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 2: to go check it and see if I'm telling the truth,

787
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 2: because what I found and what you'll find, is that

788
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 2: the murder rate in Median, Columbia had dropped by almost

789
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 2: eighty percent simply because Pablo Escobar was dead. Now did

790
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 2: we do we make a difference on cocaine trafficking? We did,

791
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 2: probably lasted maybe two weeks at most. The sad thing

792
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 2: is here in the United States right now you can

793
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 2: go on almost any street corner by cocaine, certain areas

794
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,800
Speaker 2: of town you go to. So people say, well, the

795
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 2: war on drugs is lost, that it has just been

796
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 2: away at coloss a waste of time and human life. Well,

797
00:39:58,280 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 2: what would it be like if law enforced wasn't out

798
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 2: there fighting the scourge? You know, would you be safe

799
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 2: to do anything? Because there's going to be drug addicts everywhere.

800
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 2: They're going to be robbing here, They're going to be

801
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 2: still and you're going to kill, you gonna be jacking

802
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 2: your car. It made a difference. It's just it didn't

803
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:17,919
Speaker 2: end the war on drugs. That's not going to happen

804
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 2: until the demand goes away.

805
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 1: How do you approach it? That's a subject for another

806
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:29,080
Speaker 1: another time. I think highlighting what you were doing. Your

807
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 1: job was to locate and capture Pablo Escobar, and by

808
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 1: doing so you made a difference and a job of

809
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: that magnitude. That's like an investigation on steroids. Were you

810
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: on a low after it? Like did you you feel

811
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:46,719
Speaker 1: like you lack purpose? Or did you use it to

812
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: just go Okay, I've done the hard yards. Now I

813
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 1: can have a bit of a bit of a rest

814
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: or take some time to find myself again.

815
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,919
Speaker 2: Well, I was there until June. So he was killed

816
00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 2: Decemberary three and asked for back to the United States.

817
00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 2: Since in June of ninety four and Javier came out.

818
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 2: I think in September. I ended up in North Carolina.

819
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 2: Never seen praight cocaine in my life. I've spent four

820
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 2: years in Miami, three years in Bogata, and I ended

821
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:17,760
Speaker 2: up Greensboro. And right, cocaine is the that's the drug

822
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 2: evil drug of that area at the time, so you

823
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 2: addressed whatever the drug problem is in the area that

824
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 2: you're assigned. But when I got to Greensboro and I

825
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 2: didn't even know where it was, I had to look

826
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 2: it up on the map. When I got to Greensboro,

827
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 2: I felt like that's when the job got to be

828
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 2: a lot of fun. That there had I had no

829
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 2: pressure whatsoever to prove myself to anybody. I felt like

830
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:48,640
Speaker 2: I survived Miami in the nineteen eighties, I survived the

831
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: Pablo Escobar man hunt. That's when a job got to

832
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 2: be fun. I mean, we had five agents trying to

833
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 2: cover twenty plus counties, so we always worked at our

834
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 2: state and local park nurse, which quite honestly, I prefer

835
00:42:02,600 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: working with anyway, because they're a lot more fun to

836
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 2: hang out with, and you know, they don't complain when

837
00:42:06,880 --> 00:42:10,439
Speaker 2: it's quitting time. And I mean they're dedicated, and most

838
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 2: most d agents are, but not all. So I guess

839
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,239
Speaker 2: that was the thing for me. It was it was

840
00:42:18,760 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 2: I had come I had become a workaholic, I think.

841
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 2: I mean we were Gosh, if you were in the embassy,

842
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,239
Speaker 2: we lived off off the coffee and doughnuts, every day.

843
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,959
Speaker 2: It was that sugar and caffeine kept you going. I'd

844
00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,320
Speaker 2: stop by the nurses station and get my blood pressure

845
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 2: checked and it was never high. You know, I say

846
00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 2: it was I felt like, you know, the good man

847
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 2: upstairs was taking care of me healthwise. The Columbia National Police,

848
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 2: especially the dehing guys. When the bullets started flying, we

849
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 2: knew they wouldn't run off and leave us. I mean

850
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 2: they'd stand there and fight to protect us. But they

851
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 2: knew we wouldn't run off and leave them either. So

852
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 2: it was just it was one of the I would

853
00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 2: I never want to do any of that again, especially

854
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 2: at this old man age, but I wouldn't trade it

855
00:42:59,719 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 2: for the world. It's what we're doing in retirement is

856
00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:06,399
Speaker 2: I never dreamt we'd be doing anything like this. It's

857
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,880
Speaker 2: I mean, being on a podcast with you and you're

858
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 2: in Australia. I mean I get to travel the world

859
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 2: just our Kenthon. You're traveling around the world telling the

860
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:18,799
Speaker 2: true story about bablu Escobar. We talk about leadership, decision making, teamwork.

861
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,640
Speaker 2: It's I'm having a blast in retirement. I have to see.

862
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, like full credit to you, but I think

863
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:30,000
Speaker 1: it starts and you didn't start off that investigation thinking, Okay,

864
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: I'm in twenty years thirty years time, I'm going to

865
00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:34,600
Speaker 1: be doing a tour around the world. I'm going to

866
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:40,280
Speaker 1: speak on someone's podcast overseas. And that's I can see

867
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: and I know, yeah, you're a cop, you know other cops.

868
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: I can see the joy that you took from the

869
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,919
Speaker 1: work that you're doing. It has the highs, it has

870
00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 1: the horror, but there's also something that, yeah, it was

871
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:58,839
Speaker 1: the right fit for you, obviously doing policing your life

872
00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 1: after policing, hope, noting a round the world, and yeah,

873
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 1: your Netflix series Knockofs tell us how it came about.

874
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,440
Speaker 2: You know, a friend of mine had introduced me to

875
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 2: Hollywood producers and Hobby and are stilling the job, and

876
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,080
Speaker 2: I would call him. He was in Texas, I was

877
00:44:15,080 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: in Virginia, and you kind of get your hopes up that, oh,

878
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,360
Speaker 2: maybe somebody is interested in this story because it was

879
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 2: so long ago, and both of those producers wanted to

880
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,279
Speaker 2: take our story and make political statements out of it.

881
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 2: I say, I'm about as a political as you're going

882
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,239
Speaker 2: to get. So you get your hopes up, but then

883
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,839
Speaker 2: nothing happens and you get disappointed. So when I got

884
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 2: the call about this guy named Eric Newman and Hollywood

885
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 2: wanted to talk to us, I refused to call him

886
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 2: to start with. And the guy that called me was

887
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 2: an old Breen buddy, and I told him, I said, okay,

888
00:44:44,320 --> 00:44:45,919
Speaker 2: he cussed me out to what he did, and I's like, okay,

889
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,160
Speaker 2: I'll call him. I'll call him. So I called Eric

890
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 2: and he kind of gave me his little spill on

891
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:51,600
Speaker 2: the phone and I said, you know, thank you, but

892
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 2: I think we'll pass. And he got real quiet on

893
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 2: the phone. I said to Eric, are you still there?

894
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 2: And he's like, I can't believe you just said no.

895
00:44:59,320 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 2: And we've since learned that people will pretty much sell

896
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 2: their soul to be on TV in Hollywood. I mean,

897
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,839
Speaker 2: there's some strange people out there. And so he said, listen,

898
00:45:06,880 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 2: I'm coming to Washington next month. Would you can I

899
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 2: take you to dinner. I have a couple of writers.

900
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 2: Let's just talk about this and see if we can

901
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 2: change your mind. And againy, you will understand this. I'm

902
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 2: thinking that's going to be a free dinner and a

903
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:21,879
Speaker 2: really nice restaurant. Yes, I will meet you. That it

904
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 2: was as a French restaurant, so we you know, after

905
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 2: we talked to them, I just kind of developed a

906
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 2: connection with them. They were very open and honest and

907
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 2: transparent about everything. And so we're getting ready to leave

908
00:45:34,880 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 2: the restaurant. He says, so what are you going to do?

909
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 2: And I said, well, let me talk to Hoare and

910
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 2: let's maybe we'll pursue this and see where it goes.

911
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:44,720
Speaker 2: So my initial conversation with Eric was in February of thirteen.

912
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 2: In March is when we had dinner. In May, we

913
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 2: signed contracts with Netflix, and at the end of June,

914
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,640
Speaker 2: I retired from DEEA. I retired from law enforcement after

915
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 2: thirty eight years. And in July we were sitting in

916
00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 2: Hollywood starting to write the first season of Narco's with

917
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,720
Speaker 2: all the writers. So it went just like that.

918
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 1: Perfect, perfect Tommy for you. The obvious question you want

919
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 1: to ask is who's going to play you? At what

920
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 1: point in time did you ask who's going to play It?

921
00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 2: Wasn't too far into it. There was between Eric and

922
00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 2: one of his other producers is a guy named Chris Francato,

923
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:22,200
Speaker 2: who this and I have stayed friends and I've worked

924
00:46:22,239 --> 00:46:25,040
Speaker 2: on a couple of other projects with him. And I

925
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 2: think what they would do is they would there are

926
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 2: organizations in Hollywood that, you know, their talent Agency, so

927
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:34,879
Speaker 2: they represent certain actors and actresses, and so they would

928
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 2: bring us these booklets and said here's somebody you know

929
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:38,560
Speaker 2: the book that might be this thick and they'd say,

930
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 2: here's some of the people were thinking about playing your part.

931
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 2: And he started going through. Then you see John Travolta,

932
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 2: and you see Armie Hammer, and you see Jake Jillen Hall,

933
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 2: and I'm like, holy cow, I'm not a big TV watcher,

934
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 2: but even I knew who these people were. And I

935
00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 2: think it was just to playcad us, to keep us

936
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 2: from asking questions, because that's not who they hired at all.

937
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: Right, just keep these idiots happy.

938
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 2: Exactly, That's exactly right.

939
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: It's an experience and that it's been. I believe it's

940
00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:10,960
Speaker 1: one of the top Netflix series that they put out,

941
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 1: the original series. And the question that often gets us too,

942
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,840
Speaker 1: when your life or the investigations played out in the

943
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 1: TV world, was it true and in terms of things

944
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 1: that happened, what's your take on Knickos.

945
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 2: The timeline, the chronological timeline is pretty accurate, but we

946
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 2: did it only in our own analysis of the first

947
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 2: two seasons, because that's the twenty episodes about Pablo Escobar,

948
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,000
Speaker 2: and we figured that about a third of what you

949
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:41,919
Speaker 2: see in there is true. The second third, well, those

950
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 2: events happened, but they haven't been portrayed correctly. They've been

951
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 2: dramatized greatly, or they've taken other incidents and combined them

952
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 2: and things like that. But then that last there is

953
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 2: just straight out and make believe Hollywood. You know, I

954
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,520
Speaker 2: was never kidnapped. We weren't pushing people out of helicopter

955
00:47:56,600 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 2: doors at three thousand feet. Javier wasn't passing class find

956
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 2: information to lost peppies. But like I take you know

957
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 2: one on stage, what I joke around about it. What

958
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 2: is true is that Javier really is a man slut.

959
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,120
Speaker 2: And it's funny because when his wife's when his wife's

960
00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 2: in the audience, I always go before the show and say, Beverly,

961
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 2: you know what I'm going to say, Are you okay

962
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 2: with us? It's like, yeah, go ahead, don't know what

963
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:21,839
Speaker 2: you're doing.

964
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: Well that that's good, but that's certainly the way he

965
00:48:25,960 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: was portrayed, but he seems to enjoy it. It must

966
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: be great. You two still been in contact. When you've

967
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: been through an experience like you went through. I take

968
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 1: it you've remained lifelong friends. And you must be having

969
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 1: a ball doing what you're doing because you do some

970
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,280
Speaker 1: live shows as well. You've been able to overdo Australia

971
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: and UK and across America. You enjoying yourself?

972
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, brother, I'm having a blast. It's we've been on

973
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 2: every content that except Africa and Antarctica, and I'm not

974
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 2: going to Antarctica. But we were supposed to go to

975
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 2: Africa the first year of COVID, and of course that

976
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 2: killed that. That our four years before COVID, we averaged

977
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,200
Speaker 2: seventy five shows a year. So I saw hobbyer born

978
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 2: and I saw my wife, but my marriage was stronger

979
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:09,839
Speaker 2: than ever.

980
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I wasn't on You've got to get a

981
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,480
Speaker 1: wife from him. You probably probably probably seek of him.

982
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 1: And what's the you're also doing the podcast Game of Crimes.

983
00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 1: What's what's the backstory to that?

984
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 2: It's very similar to what you're doing. It's I started

985
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 2: out with a friend of mine. We came up to

986
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 2: this idea. He was used to be a Kansas State

987
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 2: trooper and a detective out there and during COVID, we

988
00:49:34,600 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 2: got bored and decided we start a podcast. And I

989
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 2: don't even know what a podcast was, but he did,

990
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:42,840
Speaker 2: so we're He had to leave the show last April

991
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 2: because he still had a day job and they increased

992
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 2: his responsibilities, but they also doubled his paycheck and that

993
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 2: pays a whole lot more than a podcast. Okay, but

994
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 2: coming up on the end of the fourth year here

995
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:56,879
Speaker 2: in June, going to start the fifth year. Every show

996
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:02,239
Speaker 2: has a guest. It's mostly current or law enforcement. Occasionally

997
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 2: a first responder or military. I bring in the military veterans,

998
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:08,920
Speaker 2: and even every once in a while I'll bring in

999
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,799
Speaker 2: a former bad guy and then let the listeners get

1000
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 2: the perspective from his viewpoint. And most of them, they

1001
00:50:15,760 --> 00:50:18,480
Speaker 2: they have to have a tone for for their crimes.

1002
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:19,920
Speaker 2: You know, most of them have done their time in

1003
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 2: prison and they've changed their lives. And I have one

1004
00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,359
Speaker 2: guy that was the just a couple of months ago,

1005
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 2: that was the president of the Hell's Angels in Los

1006
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 2: Angeles for thirty five years, and he really wouldn't come

1007
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 2: off of it. He did his prison time. But you know,

1008
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,000
Speaker 2: I asked him, I said, anything you'd changed in your life,

1009
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:40,080
Speaker 2: and he's like, Nope, not a thing. So you know,

1010
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,319
Speaker 2: he's the only one that really hasn't come across the

1011
00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:45,239
Speaker 2: you know, to be a good guy.

1012
00:50:45,280 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 1: Now, it's interesting, interesting, Steve, you're touring, touring the world.

1013
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:54,720
Speaker 1: You've got the TV series pubcast, Wilse. I write a book,

1014
00:50:55,400 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 1: Man Hunters and the Bringing Them Pablo Escoba, which I

1015
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 1: read cover the cover, and it's a great read and

1016
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:06,919
Speaker 1: gives a really good insight into what you've what you've done.

1017
00:51:07,360 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 2: Just to give you a little inside secret, we had

1018
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 2: a go straighter. No no, well, I tried to and

1019
00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:17,360
Speaker 2: it looked like a third reader had written.

1020
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: Well when I left the Cops and trying to like

1021
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:25,280
Speaker 1: I was doing journalism and writing articles and the book

1022
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 1: it looked like a fact sheet until someone pulled me

1023
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 1: aside and slapped me and said, it looks stupid. Had

1024
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,359
Speaker 1: a bit of color to this. We just don't want

1025
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,759
Speaker 1: a fact shet. Okay, all right, I had a bit

1026
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:37,880
Speaker 1: if I went back to the cops. Now, I'd love

1027
00:51:37,920 --> 00:51:40,000
Speaker 1: to write a fact sheet because would be very creative.

1028
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 1: It it'd be a cold, dark night when I came

1029
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 1: across the seas. Oh yeah, yeah, anyway, look, thank you

1030
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: very much for your time, and we literally have just

1031
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 1: scratch scratched the surface of your stories. But from a

1032
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 1: law enforcement officers point of view, I think what you did,

1033
00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:04,479
Speaker 1: I can see the sacrifices you made, and we haven't

1034
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:08,319
Speaker 1: really delved into all the sacrifices you made in your

1035
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,960
Speaker 1: personal sacrifices hunting down the world's most wanted man and

1036
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 1: all the other things that you've done in your career.

1037
00:52:14,640 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 1: But also someone like you, I think inspires law enforcement officers,

1038
00:52:19,640 --> 00:52:23,759
Speaker 1: Like you're this dumb, dumb kid from the country that

1039
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: ended up living the life that you live because of

1040
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:28,960
Speaker 1: the job that you did.

1041
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been blessed in my life. I've been blessed

1042
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:36,880
Speaker 2: in my career. You know, you mentioned the families of

1043
00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:41,120
Speaker 2: our families that sacrifice so much. I refer to them

1044
00:52:41,120 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 2: as the unsung heroes, so I always give them a

1045
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 2: shout out, and just to finish up about the esc

1046
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:48,880
Speaker 2: of our story, the real heroes. It's not half of

1047
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 2: your opinion, Steve Murphy. It's not the United States. It's

1048
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 2: Columbia National Police because they took their country back. Yeah.

1049
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it always comes across when I hear you

1050
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 1: talk about giving the tribute to to the sacrifices they

1051
00:53:01,719 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: made as well. But look it's been an honor and

1052
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:06,760
Speaker 1: the privilege and I've really enjoyed, enjoyed the chaps.

1053
00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:08,279
Speaker 2: Take care of again.

1054
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 1: You look like you're enjoying life.

1055
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 2: Life is good. I'm sitting at the beach right now,

1056
00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:15,840
Speaker 2: so there you got good stuff. Thanks for having me on.

1057
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 2: Thank you.