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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fear and Greed Q and A, where we

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Speaker 1: ask and answer questions about business, investing, economics, politics and more.

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Speaker 2: I'm Adam Lang.

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Speaker 1: Today's episode is part of a commercial partnership with class

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Speaker 1: Ignite twenty twenty five, who are proud sponsors of this podcast.

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Speaker 1: We are here at the conference in Sydney where I've

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Speaker 1: just moderated a panel on how artificial intelligence and automation

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Speaker 1: are changing accounting. Please note this is general information only

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Speaker 1: and you should see professional advice before making any investment decisions.

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Speaker 1: My guests are Jason and Whistle from Hub twenty four,

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Speaker 1: Evan Morrison from Hub twenty four's Innovation Lab, and Nick Perrett,

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Speaker 1: the chief executive of the Yarralane. Nick, good morning, Good morning,

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Speaker 1: and to you.

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Speaker 2: Evan, good morning, Jason morning, good morning. So Jason may

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Speaker 2: start with you.

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Speaker 1: Please, Artificial intelligence, as we hear practically daily, is affecting

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Speaker 1: every industry. What do accountants and advisors need to do

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Speaker 1: to harness the power of artificial intelligence and automation and

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Speaker 1: why should they?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 3: Look At the moment, accounting and advice are struggling with

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Speaker 3: the demand for their services and being challenged by the

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Speaker 3: lack of supply coming through, and so we have a

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Speaker 3: situation where there are not enough graduates in accounting and

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Speaker 3: advice industry through university coming through to meet the demand

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Speaker 3: required in our industry to deliver their clients. And so

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Speaker 3: productivity therefore is a big issue, and artificial intelligence gives

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Speaker 3: us the promise that we can really step change the

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Speaker 3: productivity in practices and Nick is with it today with

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Speaker 3: a great example of how to do that in his

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Speaker 3: own practice.

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Speaker 2: Nick, may we throw to you then? Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Sure. So we've implemented robots within our business, so Henry

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Speaker 4: and Grace the two names of the robots. So what

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Speaker 4: we do is we've always built these systems and processes

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Speaker 4: with a view to improve the client experience. So I

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Speaker 4: totally agree with what's just been said, and you know

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Speaker 4: it's unfortunate, but we're just struggling to keep up with

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Speaker 4: the work, you know, we and I don't. Well, I

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Speaker 4: know we're not alone.

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Speaker 2: Appears are the same.

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Speaker 4: We have so many clients that come in, there's a

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Speaker 4: there's a huge amount of work to get through which

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Speaker 4: is now on the table, and we have till May

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Speaker 4: next year to get through it. So you know, the

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Speaker 4: scramble begins to get through it. And what we're trying

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Speaker 4: to do is free up our accountants and advisors time

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Speaker 4: so that they can give our clients what they want.

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Speaker 4: And if you really think about what our clients want,

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Speaker 4: they want access to our people. So we're trying to

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Speaker 4: automate as much as we can for our accountants and

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Speaker 4: our planners so that they have more time to spend

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Speaker 4: with their clients, building those relationships, you know, and the

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Speaker 4: connection that. That's what we think the real value in

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Speaker 4: what we do is it's not sitting there, you know,

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Speaker 4: doing it debits and credits in the background, setting up files,

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Speaker 4: setting up all of these paperwork. We want to try

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Speaker 4: to automate that. It still has to be done absolutely

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Speaker 4: from a compliance point of view, but there's ways to

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Speaker 4: automate it.

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Speaker 1: Evan, can I ask you the same question, how do

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Speaker 1: accountants and advisors how do they need to harness this power?

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Speaker 2: How are you seeing that?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so we're seeing advisers and accountants start to use

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Speaker 5: AI for both front of house and back of house.

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Speaker 5: And so most clients will have sort of seen an

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Speaker 5: accountant or an advisor ask them to turn on a

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Speaker 5: recorder when they meet with the advisor of the accountant,

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Speaker 5: and the idea there is is that behind the scenes

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Speaker 5: they are using generative A or AI or artificial intelligence to

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Speaker 5: transcribe the recordings and to produce notes for themselves and

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Speaker 5: to then start the workflow or to trigger various workflows

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Speaker 5: off the back of actually meeting with a client. And

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Speaker 5: so what the goal here is is that they want

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Speaker 5: more efficiency in a sense of they don't have to

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Speaker 5: stop and take notes or filling in information while they're

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Speaker 5: talking to the client, but they also want to make

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Speaker 5: sure that they capture everything, and so we've seen that as

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Speaker 5: an efficiency play to set off with. And then behind

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Speaker 5: the scenes, we're seeing more and more advisors and accounts

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Speaker 5: use technologies that are maturing that help them with their

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Speaker 5: back office processes. So, as an example, from a mail

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Speaker 5: room point of view, receiving stocks to figots or chessholding statements,

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Speaker 5: being able to process those at scale and at mass

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Speaker 5: has been a really challenging thing for a long time,

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Speaker 5: and it's been one of the most expensive parts of

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Speaker 5: running advice and accounting for directly invested clients, and so

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Speaker 5: being able to leverage AI to read documents and to

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Speaker 5: process those documents has been really a bit of a

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Speaker 5: check game changer.

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Speaker 1: It's incredible, isn't it that you can just use that

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Speaker 1: recording facility and taking notes that alone frame up the

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Speaker 1: person to focus on the conversation at hand and serve

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Speaker 1: that customer.

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Speaker 2: Are you finding that utility alone is worthwhile?

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Speaker 5: So we've seen that people when they first enter the space,

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Speaker 5: they thought it was going to do everything, and so

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Speaker 5: there was this massive expectation that it was going to

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Speaker 5: do all the work for them, and what actually happened

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Speaker 5: was that it did a bit of the work for them,

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Speaker 5: but it didn't do everything, and so at the start,

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Speaker 5: people got a little bit upset. And when I say people,

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Speaker 5: accountants and the advices, they were getting a little bit

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Speaker 5: upset because it wasn't doing all the things that was promised.

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Speaker 5: But then as they've begun to incorporate the workflow and

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Speaker 5: to understand how best to work with the tools, that's

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Speaker 5: where they're starting to see the efficiency gains and that

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Speaker 5: goes across the board. With most AI tools today, they

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Speaker 5: don't just work out of the box in the sense

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Speaker 5: of they don't just give you the perfect answer. You

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Speaker 5: do have to prompt the right way. You do have

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Speaker 5: to structure what your put feeding, isn't it as an

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Speaker 5: input the right way to get the most value and

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Speaker 5: the most benefit out of these tool kids.

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Speaker 1: From the client side, Evan, how would invest and invest

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Speaker 1: in our client know that their service provider is using

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Speaker 1: AI and using it well.

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Speaker 5: So for the most part, as a sort of mentioned,

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Speaker 5: the client should be made aware of recordings, and for

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Speaker 5: the most part, when that happens, the advisor of the

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Speaker 5: account should be saying to the client, we're going to

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Speaker 5: use AI over your recordings to get this benefit and

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Speaker 5: to transcribe our calls.

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Speaker 4: We do do that from a from a vice point

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Speaker 4: of view, like a there's always a comment to the

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Speaker 4: client in your mind, if we record this, it helps

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Speaker 4: with our file note taking. And even now I think

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Speaker 4: the client actually has to opt in and they'll have

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Speaker 4: to turn their camera back on and their microphone back

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Speaker 4: on to acknowledge that they know they're being recorded. That's

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Speaker 4: that's in play now.

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Speaker 2: It's a good step.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, And what we're finding is is by having that

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Speaker 5: conversation up front as well, the clients are they're buying

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Speaker 5: into it because they see that there's an efficiency gain upstream,

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Speaker 5: and so they're not necessarily paying as much or they're

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Speaker 5: getting more service and better service as a result of

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Speaker 5: that trade off from a privacy point of view, and

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Speaker 5: so it's been more of an acceptance as we've seen

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Speaker 5: those sort of technologies rolled out. But then from a

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Speaker 5: back office point of view, it what's be noticeable to

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Speaker 5: the client is improvements in service. So effectively we're able

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Speaker 5: to assist and augment more and so there should be

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Speaker 5: an improvement in services. Well, that's that's the theory behind

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Speaker 5: where we're going with these technologies.

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Speaker 2: Terrific, Nick.

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Speaker 1: If I can then turn that to you in terms

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Speaker 1: of assisting and augmenting, can you help us understand how

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Speaker 1: these outcomes are working well for your clients, the changes

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Speaker 1: in the way that people experience.

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Speaker 2: Your service that is helping to provide.

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Speaker 4: So it's a really interesting question because I think you

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Speaker 4: can fall into the trap of trying to build too much,

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Speaker 4: and I think what we'll see is people will probably

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Speaker 4: do that and then I think the client experience will change.

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Speaker 2: It has to.

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Speaker 4: So if you're if you're trying to build something where

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Speaker 4: they're going to be talking now to an AI, which

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Speaker 4: is all possible.

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Speaker 2: Of course, people.

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Speaker 4: Will be able to build that that technology is around,

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Speaker 4: but is that what the client wants. We don't think

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Speaker 4: it is. We think people, our clients still want to

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Speaker 4: talk to people, and our humans where they make the connections.

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Speaker 4: And then but I think there is an expectation and

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Speaker 4: what we need to do as business owners we need

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Speaker 4: to empower our staff to give them the tools to

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Speaker 4: compete with what we know is coming. So that world

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Speaker 4: I believe is coming, we need to get our people

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Speaker 4: ready to be able to compete with it. So they've

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Speaker 4: got to be just as quick, just as efficient. And

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Speaker 4: one thing that we know that that AI world can't

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Speaker 4: replicate is human connection. So that's our approach with it.

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Speaker 4: We're always putting our staff at the front. How can

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Speaker 4: we empower them to do all the heavy lifting for

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Speaker 4: them to let them build those connections with our clients,

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Speaker 4: our people, which is what we think where they think

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Speaker 4: the value is.

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Speaker 1: Jason, you made a comment on the panel about keeping

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Speaker 1: humans in the room.

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Speaker 2: Can you talk to that a little bit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Look, they agree with Nick. I think the great

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Speaker 3: thing about the accounting industry and the advice industry the

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Speaker 3: people that work in it, they're experts in their field,

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Speaker 3: and those clients that use them get a lot of

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Speaker 3: peace of mind, and you can't. I think you can't

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Speaker 3: put a value on peace of mind at times. So

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Speaker 3: how do we use this technology but maintain the great

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Speaker 3: things about our industry? So I think Nick, you have

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Speaker 3: a view that a lot of people in the counting

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Speaker 3: industry may not enjoy their jobs because they're doing really

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Speaker 3: manual tasks every day and it's quite boring. They are

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Speaker 3: exactly the kind of things I think this technology can

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Speaker 3: be used for, and we can free up those people

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Speaker 3: to deliver even more service, even more value to the clients.

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Speaker 3: And I think that's the key we have to drive

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Speaker 3: for how do we do that? And you know, this technology,

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Speaker 3: we have to remember it's early days. It's not perfect.

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Speaker 3: You know, I wouldn't if I wanted to go to

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Speaker 3: CHET GPT and US where should I invest or how

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Speaker 3: can I save tax? I probably wouldn't trust the answer. So,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's interesting, you get some really interesting answers,

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Speaker 3: but I think we still need those ex and those

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Speaker 3: human relationships we've got and we can expect those people

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Speaker 3: to be leveraging those tools, but we're still getting an

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Speaker 3: answer from a.

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Speaker 1: Human terrific evan from a technology perspective, you know, this

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Speaker 1: is early days. It's pretty quick, but it's probably as

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Speaker 1: slow as the change is going to get. How fun

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Speaker 1: do you think we can take this capability?

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Speaker 5: The capability is accelerating at an increasing pace. When we

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Speaker 5: say it's accelerating an increasing pace, what we're sort of

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Speaker 5: seeing is that the technology is able to do more work, longer,

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Speaker 5: at a higher accuracy, and so there is a cap there,

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Speaker 5: so we will cap out. So I would be surprised

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Speaker 5: if we continue with that that trajectory that we're going,

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Speaker 5: But right now we are on the upward trend still.

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Speaker 5: And so by continuously exploring an experiment, experimenting with what

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Speaker 5: the capability can do, that's where the value unlock starts

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Speaker 5: to so to happen. And by sharing what you're doing

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Speaker 5: with your work colleagues or throughout your networks, you should

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Speaker 5: be able to understand how other people are also unlocking value.

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Speaker 5: And right now it's a network effect of unlocking value

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Speaker 5: that we think is the most important that's sort of emerging.

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Speaker 5: So effectively, by sharing how you're getting value out of

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Speaker 5: such ABT or sharing how you're getting value out of

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Speaker 5: different AI technologies, people can then apply what you've learned.

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Speaker 5: But then you can apply what they've learned, and so

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Speaker 5: everyone's got their own trick at the moment, and the

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Speaker 5: idea and the goal is is that at a point

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Speaker 5: in time we will then have actual full processes that

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Speaker 5: we apply that get the most value out of the

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Speaker 5: technology itself.

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Speaker 1: Terrific Nick from a practitioner's point of view, Are there limits?

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Speaker 2: Yes, very much?

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Speaker 4: So yeah, so, like what we can do is far

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Speaker 4: greater than what we should be doing. And so everything

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Speaker 4: we build we build with the views that the ATO

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Speaker 4: is going to come in and audit this file. So

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Speaker 4: you know, getting the right answer is not enough. We

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Speaker 4: need to get the right answer with the right documentation,

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Speaker 4: with the right source data saved in the client file

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Speaker 4: in a really consistent way across our firm. And so,

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Speaker 4: like I said, we like the RPA side of it.

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Speaker 4: It is a bit boring when we talk about AI

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Speaker 4: because that's you know, that's the sexy word at the moment.

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Speaker 4: But the robotics side, where we know every step and

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Speaker 4: we've programmed every single step is going to take that

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Speaker 4: that really works for our business because, as I said,

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Speaker 4: we need to be prepared for the day when the

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Speaker 4: ATO or our governing bodies like chartered accountants, we come

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Speaker 4: in and we have reviews every three years. You know,

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Speaker 4: we need to meet all those standards. Absolutely, so that's

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Speaker 4: always front of mine whenever we're building anything.

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Speaker 3: It's a key point. And twenty four regulated financial services entity.

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Speaker 3: All of our clients, being practitioneders, either accounts or advisors,

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Speaker 3: work under regulations. And the great thing about this technology

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Speaker 3: is all the cool stuff we can do with it,

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Speaker 3: but we have to think about the downside risks of

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Speaker 3: what could happen if this goes wrong. And when we're

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Speaker 3: using General VAI, where is that data being stored? What

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Speaker 3: can those companies do with that data? This is some

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Speaker 3: of our most sensitive data we have as families, so

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Speaker 3: we don't ending up in the wrong hands. And so

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Speaker 3: the industry and it is has to do this in

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Speaker 3: a really safe way.

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Speaker 1: It's vital for protecting and maintaining the trust you've built

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Speaker 1: so far.

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Speaker 2: Right exactly, absolutely, Nick.

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Speaker 1: So looking ahead now, accountants, advisors, what are they doing

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Speaker 1: to prepare for the next wage wave of change.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what every accountant's doing, but certainly from

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Speaker 4: our point of view, we're just making ourselves aware of

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Speaker 4: it and starting to use it. I think it is

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Speaker 4: really important to begin. Yeah, like I said, I have

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Speaker 4: this firm belief that you know, it's changing so fast

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Speaker 4: you have to keep up. And if you're just sitting

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Speaker 4: there with your head in the sand, thinking, oh, this

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Speaker 4: is all too hard and I just like doing it

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Speaker 4: the way I've done it for the last twenty years,

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Speaker 4: I don't think that's going to work over the next

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Speaker 4: ten years because you just won't be able to compete

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Speaker 4: with other firms who are embracing this technology because they'll

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Speaker 4: be delivering it faster, more accurately, more consistently, and probably

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Speaker 4: offering more services to their clients because they've got that

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Speaker 4: time back to be able to do it.

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Speaker 1: You gave a great analogy on stage about sports and

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Speaker 1: where they're at a certain time. Could you repeat that story.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So there's a few sports where and those sports

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Speaker 4: are tennis, skiing, and archery. So what do those three

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Speaker 4: sports have in common? And the average player today would

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Speaker 4: be to pro back thirty forty fifty years ago when

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Speaker 4: the technology was so bad. So you think of skiing

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Speaker 4: and you know, I don't know if you've seen those

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Speaker 4: old skis, but you're basically skiing on sticks, and whereas

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Speaker 4: now you know even an average skier, you can carve

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Speaker 4: through the slopes really well. And the archery like the

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Speaker 4: old bow and arrow. You know, you look at those

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Speaker 4: machines that they've got now that they shoot from. Anyone

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Speaker 4: can hit a target. So that's where I believe we're

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Speaker 4: at with this technology. If you don't embrace it, you're

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Speaker 4: just going to be so far behind that even an

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Speaker 4: average advisor out there, he'll be better than you because

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Speaker 4: he's using it. So you know you want it, You

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Speaker 4: want to keep up.

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Speaker 1: And evan from your perspective. What's your advice for the

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Speaker 1: path ahead?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, so always understand that the technology is amazing and

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Speaker 5: it's getting better and better every day. However, it doesn't

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Speaker 5: actually give you well, so don't expect perfect results. So

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Speaker 5: it it will get you eighty percent of the way

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Speaker 5: there for the most part, but there are hallucinations, there

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Speaker 5: are errors that will emerge in the outputs. And so

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Speaker 5: for people who believe the hype in the marketing that

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Speaker 5: the technology is just going to do everything is going

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Speaker 5: to take it for those jobs, don't believe that that's

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Speaker 5: not what's happening, and it's not what's going to happen

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Speaker 5: long term. Effectually, that the technology is an augmentor as in,

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Speaker 5: it helps and it assists, it's not there to replace.

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Speaker 2: Brilliant. Thank you and Jason.

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Speaker 1: From your perspective, what should accounts and advisors be doing

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Speaker 1: now to prepare for the next wave of change?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think I think we're all in a green sea.

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Speaker 3: We were talking about it earlier, but you don't hold back,

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Speaker 3: go forward with this, find the right partners and do

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Speaker 3: your dd make sure you're actually using an organization you

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Speaker 3: can trust and you really understand where this start is

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Speaker 3: being used. But I think the great opportunity to live

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Speaker 3: a farm or service for and much more value as

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Speaker 3: a practitioner to clients and clients are going to be

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Speaker 3: the huge beneficiaries of that.

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Speaker 2: Thank you, Jason, Evan and Nick.

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Speaker 1: I think the panel was one of the highlights here

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Speaker 1: at Classic Nite twenty twenty five.

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Speaker 2: So Jason, thank you, thank you, Evan, thank you, thank you,

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Speaker 2: and Nick, thank you. Thank you.

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Speaker 2: I'm Adam Blank and this has been fear and greed,

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Speaker 2: Q and a