1 00:00:04,019 --> 00:00:06,420 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed daily interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:06,420 --> 00:00:09,629 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. Earlier this year we talked about the collapse of 3 00:00:09,630 --> 00:00:14,099 Sean Aylmer: the soft plastics recycling scheme run by Melbourne company, REDcycle. 4 00:00:14,460 --> 00:00:16,469 Sean Aylmer: It had been running for a number of years through 5 00:00:16,469 --> 00:00:19,049 Sean Aylmer: supermarkets like Coles and Woolworths, but when the company went 6 00:00:19,050 --> 00:00:23,070 Sean Aylmer: under, dozens of stockpiles containing tons and tons of plastic 7 00:00:23,070 --> 00:00:26,430 Sean Aylmer: bags and other soft plastics were discovered across the country. 8 00:00:26,639 --> 00:00:29,280 Sean Aylmer: Coles and Woolworths, which hadn't been aware of the buildup, 9 00:00:29,370 --> 00:00:32,820 Sean Aylmer: volunteered to take responsibility for those stockpiles. But what happens 10 00:00:32,820 --> 00:00:35,729 Sean Aylmer: now? Well, a new initiative is being developed with the 11 00:00:35,729 --> 00:00:39,120 Sean Aylmer: backing of major food and beverage brands like Nestle, PepsiCo, 12 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:43,170 Sean Aylmer: Kellogg's and Arnotts. Tanya Barden is the Chief Executive Officer 13 00:00:43,170 --> 00:00:46,440 Sean Aylmer: of the Australian Food and Grocery Council, which is coordinating 14 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:49,619 Sean Aylmer: the National Plastics Recycling Scheme. Tanya, welcome to Fear and Greed. 15 00:00:50,820 --> 00:00:51,810 Tanya Barden: Thank you. Thank you for your interest. 16 00:00:52,379 --> 00:00:54,029 Sean Aylmer: Just how big a blow was the collapse of REDcycle? 17 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:02,130 Tanya Barden: From a community engagement perspective, it absolutely was a significant disappointment. 18 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:05,670 Tanya Barden: We had a community who had been using that scheme for 19 00:01:05,670 --> 00:01:09,539 Tanya Barden: a number of years, really actively collecting their soft plastics 20 00:01:09,539 --> 00:01:13,110 Tanya Barden: and taking them back to store. From an environmental perspective, 21 00:01:13,170 --> 00:01:16,649 Tanya Barden: only 4% of all of the soft plastics was being 22 00:01:16,650 --> 00:01:20,789 Tanya Barden: collected through that scheme. The other 96% has been going 23 00:01:20,789 --> 00:01:23,880 Tanya Barden: into landfill. You're never going to be able to collect 24 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,569 Tanya Barden: that in that volume through a Return to Store model. 25 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,230 Tanya Barden: So it's really critical that we're able to develop some 26 00:01:31,470 --> 00:01:36,179 Tanya Barden: larger scale model that can engage and give consumers convenience 27 00:01:36,180 --> 00:01:38,310 Tanya Barden: to be able to really tackle this problem. 28 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:44,759 Sean Aylmer: I suppose the REDcycle collapse gives some currency, I suppose, 29 00:01:44,759 --> 00:01:47,309 Sean Aylmer: to the National Plastics Recycling Scheme, which of course has 30 00:01:47,309 --> 00:01:51,720 Sean Aylmer: been in development for a while. I'm wondering where is 31 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,510 Sean Aylmer: that scheme up to? Did the REDcycle collapse, in a 32 00:01:54,510 --> 00:01:57,330 Sean Aylmer: funny way, help it, only because it made people more aware? 33 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,679 Tanya Barden: We actually, when I say we, it's as Food and 34 00:02:01,679 --> 00:02:05,400 Tanya Barden: Grocery Council representing food, beverage and grocery manufacturers, such as 35 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,760 Tanya Barden: those you outlined at the top, we've been working on 36 00:02:08,760 --> 00:02:11,700 Tanya Barden: a broad scheme for soft plastics for three years now 37 00:02:11,700 --> 00:02:14,999 Tanya Barden: because we could see that this was a big challenge 38 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,969 Tanya Barden: with the amount that was going into landfill. And brand 39 00:02:17,969 --> 00:02:21,480 Tanya Barden: owners have been looking at how they can reduce the 40 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,780 Tanya Barden: need for packaging. They've been looking at alternative forms of 41 00:02:24,780 --> 00:02:27,900 Tanya Barden: packaging to plastic where that's viable. But in a lot 42 00:02:27,900 --> 00:02:32,280 Tanya Barden: of situations, soft plastics is actually a really good solution 43 00:02:32,309 --> 00:02:36,478 Tanya Barden: because it can maintain the integrity, the safety, the quality 44 00:02:36,480 --> 00:02:39,360 Tanya Barden: of the product, and it can do it in a 45 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:43,710 Tanya Barden: less environmentally harmful way than some alternates. So whether it's 46 00:02:43,710 --> 00:02:47,369 Tanya Barden: paper or whether it is harder plastics, they can often 47 00:02:47,370 --> 00:02:51,540 Tanya Barden: have a bigger environmental footprint through more emissions, more energy, 48 00:02:51,540 --> 00:02:54,150 Tanya Barden: more water and so on. So soft plastics can be 49 00:02:54,150 --> 00:02:57,360 Tanya Barden: a better solution, but there wasn't a whole of life 50 00:02:57,389 --> 00:03:00,840 Tanya Barden: approach for that. We weren't able to create end markets 51 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:05,940 Tanya Barden: for it, because the existing recycling technology in Australia cannot 52 00:03:05,940 --> 00:03:09,780 Tanya Barden: get rid of the contaminants in that material that allows 53 00:03:09,780 --> 00:03:12,179 Tanya Barden: you to get back to the food grade quality that 54 00:03:12,179 --> 00:03:14,608 Tanya Barden: we are regulated to and that we need to achieve. 55 00:03:15,030 --> 00:03:17,849 Tanya Barden: And so if we're going to create circularity where we 56 00:03:17,850 --> 00:03:22,230 Tanya Barden: can actually turn a packaging back into a packaging, we 57 00:03:22,230 --> 00:03:24,480 Tanya Barden: need a new form of technology to be able to 58 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,619 Tanya Barden: process that material. And that's advanced recycling, which can take 59 00:03:28,620 --> 00:03:31,679 Tanya Barden: the material, break it down into oil, and essentially build 60 00:03:31,679 --> 00:03:34,530 Tanya Barden: it back up into a new form of plastic packaging. 61 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,460 Tanya Barden: So we've been stepping in to create a scheme that 62 00:03:38,460 --> 00:03:41,310 Tanya Barden: will allow for a whole new supply chain to be 63 00:03:41,310 --> 00:03:44,760 Tanya Barden: built, that essentially becomes a new manufacturing industry that's a 64 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:46,829 Tanya Barden: circular economy for soft plastic. 65 00:03:47,849 --> 00:03:52,379 Sean Aylmer: So this scheme is all about creating the technology to 66 00:03:52,379 --> 00:03:56,129 Sean Aylmer: allow soft plastics to be broken down and reused. Is 67 00:03:56,220 --> 00:03:56,610 Sean Aylmer: that right? 68 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:01,020 Tanya Barden: It's about incentivising the creation of that market. So what 69 00:04:01,020 --> 00:04:04,559 Tanya Barden: we are doing, is developing a scheme where brands and 70 00:04:04,559 --> 00:04:08,580 Tanya Barden: retailers that put soft plastics around their product and the 71 00:04:08,580 --> 00:04:11,729 Tanya Barden: consumer has that then at home, a way for brands 72 00:04:11,730 --> 00:04:14,280 Tanya Barden: to be able to take responsibility and cover the costs 73 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,089 Tanya Barden: associated with that so that the consumer is able to 74 00:04:18,089 --> 00:04:22,860 Tanya Barden: put that into their convenient curbside recycling bin and have 75 00:04:22,860 --> 00:04:26,849 Tanya Barden: that go off through collection, sorting and a new processing chain. 76 00:04:27,178 --> 00:04:29,999 Tanya Barden: And alongside of that flow of material is a monetary 77 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,810 Tanya Barden: flow where brand owners will pay levies into a scheme 78 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:36,570 Tanya Barden: and those levies will be used to fund where there's 79 00:04:36,570 --> 00:04:39,569 Tanya Barden: economic gaps in this supply chain. So the reason this 80 00:04:39,570 --> 00:04:42,988 Tanya Barden: market hasn't formed naturally itself is that soft plastic is 81 00:04:42,990 --> 00:04:46,409 Tanya Barden: a very high volume, low value material. So it's been 82 00:04:46,410 --> 00:04:50,760 Tanya Barden: expensive for councils to collect, and understandably, they then haven't 83 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:52,710 Tanya Barden: wanted to face the cost of that, and at the 84 00:04:52,710 --> 00:04:55,890 Tanya Barden: same time, the end markets as REDcycle has shown, hasn't 85 00:04:55,890 --> 00:04:58,680 Tanya Barden: been there. So we are solving both ends of that 86 00:04:59,070 --> 00:05:02,009 Tanya Barden: problem by saying we're going to fund the collection of 87 00:05:02,009 --> 00:05:05,100 Tanya Barden: this material and the sorting at the recycling facilities and 88 00:05:05,100 --> 00:05:07,200 Tanya Barden: the shredding and the washing and the pelletising of that. 89 00:05:07,260 --> 00:05:10,890 Tanya Barden: And then we're also going to, as brands take responsibility, 90 00:05:11,220 --> 00:05:14,040 Tanya Barden: and use the material that's created out the other end 91 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,729 Tanya Barden: of this supply chain. So we have put requirements into 92 00:05:17,730 --> 00:05:20,729 Tanya Barden: the scheme for brands to use the recycled content back 93 00:05:20,730 --> 00:05:24,420 Tanya Barden: into their packaging, and they will face financial penalties if 94 00:05:24,420 --> 00:05:27,118 Tanya Barden: they don't do that. So once you've got the feedstock 95 00:05:27,120 --> 00:05:30,120 Tanya Barden: sorted and you've got the end market sorted, that provides 96 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:32,609 Tanya Barden: the incentive for the missing piece in the chain, which 97 00:05:32,610 --> 00:05:35,580 Tanya Barden: is the advanced recyclers. And we know that there are 98 00:05:35,580 --> 00:05:39,540 Tanya Barden: several proponents who are looking at investing in that technology 99 00:05:39,540 --> 00:05:41,609 Tanya Barden: in Australia as well as globally. 100 00:05:42,449 --> 00:05:45,779 Sean Aylmer: Who's funding this? Well, the industry, to some extent, sounds 101 00:05:45,779 --> 00:05:48,839 Sean Aylmer: like it's funding it. Governments, I know you have federal 102 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,868 Sean Aylmer: government support. Local councils, how do they fit in? 103 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,160 Tanya Barden: We received federal government support for the last couple of 104 00:05:56,160 --> 00:06:00,238 Tanya Barden: years to develop a product stewardship scheme, not to implement it. 105 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,640 Tanya Barden: So when the scheme's up and running, it will be 106 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,940 Tanya Barden: a scheme that is funded by brand owners, and that 107 00:06:05,940 --> 00:06:09,869 Tanya Barden: is a responsibility that we're really conscious of, that this 108 00:06:09,870 --> 00:06:12,689 Tanya Barden: is a material that we want to be able to keep 109 00:06:12,690 --> 00:06:16,559 Tanya Barden: using as an industry because of its environmental benefits, but 110 00:06:16,559 --> 00:06:18,750 Tanya Barden: we recognise that there is a cost to council. So 111 00:06:19,170 --> 00:06:22,380 Tanya Barden: any of that incremental cost of being able to collect 112 00:06:22,380 --> 00:06:25,860 Tanya Barden: and sort and process this material, industry will be funding that. 113 00:06:26,460 --> 00:06:28,439 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Tanya will be back in a minute. 114 00:06:34,199 --> 00:06:36,839 Sean Aylmer: My guest today is Tanya Barden, Chief Executive Officer of 115 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:41,430 Sean Aylmer: the Australian Food and Grocery Council. I presume industry and 116 00:06:41,430 --> 00:06:45,450 Sean Aylmer: then specific brands within industry are also keen on this 117 00:06:45,450 --> 00:06:48,779 Sean Aylmer: idea because they're all trying to get to net-zero emissions 118 00:06:48,779 --> 00:06:51,719 Sean Aylmer: or at least head towards net-zero emissions over the next 119 00:06:51,719 --> 00:06:52,349 Sean Aylmer: few decades. 120 00:06:54,149 --> 00:06:57,359 Tanya Barden: I'm really pleased to say that what I've seen over 121 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,238 Tanya Barden: the last five years from food and grocery manufacturers is 122 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:06,178 Tanya Barden: an absolutely huge step-change in attitudes and progress on sustainability. 123 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,839 Tanya Barden: And that's across a wide range of areas, recycling and 124 00:07:09,839 --> 00:07:13,410 Tanya Barden: packaging design being just one. But we're also trying to 125 00:07:13,410 --> 00:07:16,650 Tanya Barden: help with, as you say, net-zero emissions across the whole 126 00:07:16,650 --> 00:07:20,190 Tanya Barden: supply chain. And so when we look at these issues, 127 00:07:20,490 --> 00:07:23,580 Tanya Barden: we look at what is the whole of lifecycle problem 128 00:07:23,580 --> 00:07:27,479 Tanya Barden: here for the product and for the packaging. And we 129 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,630 Tanya Barden: need to make sure that we are optimising both of those. 130 00:07:30,930 --> 00:07:34,710 Tanya Barden: We don't want to create perverse outcomes where we change 131 00:07:34,710 --> 00:07:37,620 Tanya Barden: into different types of packaging or we eliminate packaging to 132 00:07:37,620 --> 00:07:40,410 Tanya Barden: the point where consumers are having to throw out product 133 00:07:40,410 --> 00:07:43,980 Tanya Barden: that becomes stale quicker, that gets wasted. That has a 134 00:07:43,980 --> 00:07:46,739 Tanya Barden: much bigger environmental footprint, and it's something that is not 135 00:07:46,740 --> 00:07:50,850 Tanya Barden: well understood. Because people can see and touch and feel 136 00:07:50,850 --> 00:07:54,480 Tanya Barden: their packaging and you can see that in landfills, people 137 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,990 Tanya Barden: are very alert to reducing that. But people don't see 138 00:07:57,990 --> 00:08:02,460 Tanya Barden: the embedded energy and carbon and water and transport emissions 139 00:08:02,460 --> 00:08:05,160 Tanya Barden: and agricultural chemicals that have gone into the production of 140 00:08:05,160 --> 00:08:09,660 Tanya Barden: the food and groceries in the first place. So if 141 00:08:09,660 --> 00:08:11,580 Tanya Barden: we end up having a loaf of bread where we've 142 00:08:11,580 --> 00:08:13,710 Tanya Barden: had to throw half of it out because it's been 143 00:08:13,710 --> 00:08:16,470 Tanya Barden: in a paper bag and it hasn't kept it as fresh, 144 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:20,520 Tanya Barden: then that actually has a much bigger environmental footprint than 145 00:08:20,520 --> 00:08:22,920 Tanya Barden: having had it in a soft plastic bag to start with. 146 00:08:23,459 --> 00:08:27,930 Tanya Barden: And the CSIRO recently did some analysis around all of this. 147 00:08:28,290 --> 00:08:31,020 Tanya Barden: So we're not saying that hell for leather, we should 148 00:08:31,020 --> 00:08:33,179 Tanya Barden: just be able to just keep pumping out as much 149 00:08:33,179 --> 00:08:36,179 Tanya Barden: packaging as we can. Absolutely, there's a lot of work 150 00:08:36,179 --> 00:08:40,020 Tanya Barden: going into how do we redesign and minimize the amount 151 00:08:40,020 --> 00:08:43,679 Tanya Barden: of packaging, but we need to recognise that there is 152 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:48,150 Tanya Barden: an important environmental role that packaging plays, and that demonising 153 00:08:48,150 --> 00:08:50,790 Tanya Barden: it just risks creating some other problems that we're going 154 00:08:50,790 --> 00:08:51,959 Tanya Barden: to have to face down the road. 155 00:08:52,590 --> 00:08:54,478 Sean Aylmer: So what does success look like? What are the metrics 156 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:56,009 Sean Aylmer: that you're trying to achieve? 157 00:08:57,450 --> 00:09:00,660 Tanya Barden: For us, success is having a high level of consumer 158 00:09:00,750 --> 00:09:05,010 Tanya Barden: engagement and uptake. We ran some trials recently across six 159 00:09:05,010 --> 00:09:09,480 Tanya Barden: council areas on this model of consumers putting soft plastics 160 00:09:09,510 --> 00:09:12,690 Tanya Barden: into a yellow bag into a curbside bin, and they're 161 00:09:12,690 --> 00:09:16,949 Tanya Barden: going into their yellow recycling bin. And we found that 162 00:09:17,190 --> 00:09:19,980 Tanya Barden: a third of the people that participated in the trials 163 00:09:20,070 --> 00:09:24,840 Tanya Barden: weren't previously participating in the REDcycle Return to Store scheme. 164 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:29,880 Tanya Barden: So that clearly demonstrates that you can collect more volume 165 00:09:29,940 --> 00:09:34,049 Tanya Barden: by making it really convenient for the consumer. There's some 166 00:09:34,049 --> 00:09:36,958 Tanya Barden: committed people who will take their bags into a store, absolutely. 167 00:09:37,950 --> 00:09:40,708 Tanya Barden: But our trials show that you can significantly collect more 168 00:09:40,710 --> 00:09:43,620 Tanya Barden: material if you give the convenience of being able to 169 00:09:43,620 --> 00:09:47,520 Tanya Barden: put that into the yellow recycling bin. So that consumer 170 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,750 Tanya Barden: engagement involvement is absolutely one criteria. Another criteria for us 171 00:09:51,750 --> 00:09:55,620 Tanya Barden: is making sure that we don't cause any unintended consequences 172 00:09:55,620 --> 00:09:58,828 Tanya Barden: for the rest of the recycling system. So the other 173 00:09:58,830 --> 00:10:01,620 Tanya Barden: aspect of our trials is to be able to make 174 00:10:01,620 --> 00:10:05,639 Tanya Barden: sure that there's no contamination of other recycling streams. So 175 00:10:06,210 --> 00:10:09,870 Tanya Barden: the system for recycling separates out glass and paper and aluminum and 176 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:13,559 Tanya Barden: steel very well, and we don't want to end up 177 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,828 Tanya Barden: with soft plastics going in and contaminating the paper stream 178 00:10:16,830 --> 00:10:20,550 Tanya Barden: and causing problems there. So we're also trying to proof 179 00:10:20,550 --> 00:10:23,999 Tanya Barden: that up. And then we're also looking at the economics 180 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,929 Tanya Barden: and the cost-effectiveness of being able to run the scheme 181 00:10:27,929 --> 00:10:30,660 Tanya Barden: as well. So they're some of the factors that we're 182 00:10:30,660 --> 00:10:31,620 Tanya Barden: taking into account. 183 00:10:32,309 --> 00:10:35,429 Sean Aylmer: Okay. Time is up, but Tanya, I need to ask 184 00:10:35,429 --> 00:10:38,280 Sean Aylmer: you. The food and grocery industry has been hit pretty 185 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,578 Sean Aylmer: hard by inflationary pressures. Certainly, costs are rising, that's what 186 00:10:41,580 --> 00:10:44,939 Sean Aylmer: they're saying anyway. How are your members going? We've had 187 00:10:44,940 --> 00:10:49,830 Sean Aylmer: lots of anecdotal evidence, probably less among food and grocery 188 00:10:49,830 --> 00:10:52,770 Sean Aylmer: to be honest, that the consumers have stopped spending. And 189 00:10:52,770 --> 00:10:57,270 Sean Aylmer: I know the big supermarkets have talked about consumers spending 190 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:01,530 Sean Aylmer: on better value products. Is that the sense that you 191 00:11:01,530 --> 00:11:01,920 Sean Aylmer: are getting? 192 00:11:03,150 --> 00:11:05,279 Tanya Barden: It's interesting because I think when you look at the 193 00:11:05,279 --> 00:11:07,920 Tanya Barden: economy, there are pockets within that where you get different 194 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,090 Tanya Barden: responses to inflationary pressure. And so consumers have still been 195 00:11:12,090 --> 00:11:14,790 Tanya Barden: shopping out of home a lot and still going to 196 00:11:14,790 --> 00:11:17,910 Tanya Barden: cafes and restaurants. And at some point that will start 197 00:11:17,910 --> 00:11:20,789 Tanya Barden: to pull back and we'll actually see some of that 198 00:11:20,790 --> 00:11:25,140 Tanya Barden: demand go back into supermarkets. But we are also seeing 199 00:11:25,140 --> 00:11:29,670 Tanya Barden: this separation to low value and premium where some shoppers 200 00:11:29,670 --> 00:11:33,750 Tanya Barden: are absolutely downgrading to private label or cheaper variants of 201 00:11:33,750 --> 00:11:37,620 Tanya Barden: product, but then also consumers are making choices, where instead 202 00:11:37,620 --> 00:11:39,509 Tanya Barden: of going to a restaurant or cafe, I want to 203 00:11:39,509 --> 00:11:42,269 Tanya Barden: have something that's indulgent and special at home. And so 204 00:11:42,270 --> 00:11:44,700 Tanya Barden: you do then see some of the premium end of 205 00:11:44,700 --> 00:11:47,968 Tanya Barden: the market actually doing quite well. So it is a 206 00:11:47,970 --> 00:11:49,110 Tanya Barden: bit of a mixed response. 207 00:11:49,710 --> 00:11:51,539 Sean Aylmer: Tanya, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 208 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:53,458 Tanya Barden: Thank you very much for your interest. 209 00:11:53,940 --> 00:11:56,969 Sean Aylmer: That was Tanya Barden, CEO of the Australian Food and 210 00:11:56,969 --> 00:11:59,789 Sean Aylmer: Grocery Council. This is the Fear and Greed daily interview. 211 00:11:59,789 --> 00:12:01,740 Sean Aylmer: Join us every morning for the full episode of Fear 212 00:12:01,740 --> 00:12:04,980 Sean Aylmer: and Greed, Australia's most popular business podcast. I'm Sean Aylmer. 213 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:05,880 Sean Aylmer: Enjoy your day.