WEBVTT - “Pay $10,000, that gets you dinner”: Sean Kelly on how power is shaping politics

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. In

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<v Speaker 1>Australian politics, access can be brought, factions can operate beyond

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<v Speaker 1>public view, and conduct can be deeply troubling without ever

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<v Speaker 1>meeting the definition of corruption. None of this is especially new,

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<v Speaker 1>and maybe that's the problem. Meanwhile, people are becoming more

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<v Speaker 1>disconnected from the institutions that shape their lives, unless convinced

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<v Speaker 1>those same institutions are working in their interests. Today Colonists

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<v Speaker 1>for The Age and Sydney Morning Herald Sean Kelly on

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<v Speaker 1>the money, secrecy and private power shaping our politics and

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<v Speaker 1>what happens when voters stop trusting the system itself. It's

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<v Speaker 1>Saturday August eight, Sean, great to see you again. Over

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<v Speaker 1>the past few weeks, we've seen private political fundraises, paying

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<v Speaker 1>to have dinner with the Prime Minister, a bit of

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<v Speaker 1>dinner and point by.

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<v Speaker 2>It, I tend lots of functions.

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<v Speaker 1>You want to ask that, well, we've seen a premiere

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<v Speaker 1>fall over corruption in the construction sector.

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<v Speaker 2>I've made the difficult decision to step aside as leader

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<v Speaker 2>of the Victorian State Parliamentary Labor Party and as Premier

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<v Speaker 2>of Victoria.

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<v Speaker 1>And a NIGHTCAC inquiry into a secretive liberal faction.

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<v Speaker 3>Christian Ellis, Jeremy Greenwood, Robert Asaff and John Claude Perrete

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<v Speaker 3>solicited or accepted political donations, including from prohibited donors in

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<v Speaker 3>a mountain.

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<v Speaker 1>What connects these stories in your view?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I mean, the first caveat to put on this

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<v Speaker 2>is that we of course don't know all of the details,

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<v Speaker 2>and some of these things are more still in the

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<v Speaker 2>realm of allegation rather than proven fact. But there is

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<v Speaker 2>a general theme, which is the impression that people have

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<v Speaker 2>that money plays an enormous role in politics, that people

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<v Speaker 2>who want to make money, who want to make great

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<v Speaker 2>deals of money, often who are desperate to make money,

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<v Speaker 2>will find a way either to influence politicians or to

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<v Speaker 2>attempt to influence politicians. Those methods of attempting to influence

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<v Speaker 2>the political class can take many different forms, but the

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<v Speaker 2>first important point about them is that money is involved.

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<v Speaker 2>And the second important point to note is that secrecy

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<v Speaker 2>plays a very large role.

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<v Speaker 1>How much of this problem or perceptions around these problems

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<v Speaker 1>is that most of this stuff, if not all of it,

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<v Speaker 1>is entirely legal and routine. It might be serious and concerning,

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<v Speaker 1>it might not pass the much wanted pub tests. But

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<v Speaker 1>it's not necessarily illegal, or it's not even necessarily classified

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<v Speaker 1>its corruption.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, I think this is a huge problem. I think

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<v Speaker 2>it borders on absurdity. So the thing that I always

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<v Speaker 2>come back to is that it is commonly accepted in

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<v Speaker 2>the political class that you can pay ten thousand dollars

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<v Speaker 2>to have dinner with anyone you care to name. Really,

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<v Speaker 2>you can have access, private access to the most powerful

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<v Speaker 2>people in the country. If you're willing to pay ten

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<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars that gets you a dinner. That's I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>that is an insane fact. Now, this is on some

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<v Speaker 2>level a product of the fact that political parties need

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<v Speaker 2>to raise money without public funding for elections, which you

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<v Speaker 2>know a lot of people are opposed to. You are

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<v Speaker 2>always going to have to raise money in some way.

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<v Speaker 2>But nonetheless it did I think it is really striking. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>that doesn't mean that what we're talking about here is bribery.

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<v Speaker 2>We don't. It doesn't mean that somebody pays ten thousand

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<v Speaker 2>dollars and they get an outcome. But it does mean

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<v Speaker 2>if politicians go to enough of these types of events

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<v Speaker 2>and they have dinners at private mansions, they begin to

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<v Speaker 2>swim in the same waters. They hear similar arguments from

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<v Speaker 2>a similar group of people, or a group of people

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<v Speaker 2>with similar interests along a very long period of time

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<v Speaker 2>through their careers, that is going to change the way

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<v Speaker 2>you see the world, or at least make it very,

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<v Speaker 2>very difficult to hang on to the way that you

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<v Speaker 2>originally saw the world. And that's the point. That is

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<v Speaker 2>absolutely the point.

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<v Speaker 1>The most recent example, I guess, is the ten thousand

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<v Speaker 1>dollars dinner that the Prime Minister had at Point Piper, which,

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<v Speaker 1>as you've indicated, it's pretty common practice across all political parties.

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<v Speaker 1>What can you tell us about this dinner and the

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<v Speaker 1>guest list.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the first thing to say is that there's some

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<v Speaker 2>debate about exactly the amounts of money involved. The people

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<v Speaker 2>who were there include Matt Common, the CEO of Commonwealth

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<v Speaker 2>Bank and arguably the most influential CEO in the country

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<v Speaker 2>right now. David Murray, the former chair of the Future Fund,

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<v Speaker 2>also a CEO once upon a time of Commonwealth Bank,

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<v Speaker 2>former Premier Daniel Andrews of Victoria. It was a pretty

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<v Speaker 2>pressive guest list, and a lot of this is it's

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<v Speaker 2>not so much shadowy as vague I would characterize it

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<v Speaker 2>more as a type of aesthetic that governs politics in

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<v Speaker 2>the eyes of most people. The artist storian TJ. Clark,

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<v Speaker 2>he wrote this article about politics and he says, the

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<v Speaker 2>politicians language repels scrutiny. We have got to the point

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<v Speaker 2>where we know that they have become so effective at

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<v Speaker 2>using language that uses a whole lot of words, but

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<v Speaker 2>in the end doesn't mean an enormous amount, and so

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<v Speaker 2>we can't ask politicians questions and get answers. And at

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<v Speaker 2>the same time, we know that they're operating in this

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<v Speaker 2>world in which money flows freely, but we don't have

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<v Speaker 2>much access to it. And then there's this third element

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<v Speaker 2>which is present on each of the stories you mentioned,

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<v Speaker 2>which is the operation of factions in politics. Factions are

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<v Speaker 2>always going to be involved in politics. They are at

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<v Speaker 2>their base just a group of people who are working

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<v Speaker 2>together to try to use the power that lies in numbers.

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<v Speaker 2>That is absolutely legitimate. The difficulty of courses that once

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<v Speaker 2>upon a time factions were about beliefs and ideologies, and

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<v Speaker 2>over time that become mostly about power and promotion and

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<v Speaker 2>those three things, if you like. The language that politicians

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<v Speaker 2>use to repel us, the secrecy around the internal operations

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<v Speaker 2>of political parties and the secrecy around the way that

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<v Speaker 2>political parties interact with moneyed interests, all former kind of

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<v Speaker 2>whole where we are not allowed to see inside the

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<v Speaker 2>workings of politics, and.

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<v Speaker 1>It's kind of like the secrecy then breeds into this

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<v Speaker 1>narrative that once the secrets are exposed, it then becomes

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<v Speaker 1>scandalous and that makes the whole body politics even look

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<v Speaker 1>more dodgy in the eyes of the public.

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<v Speaker 2>It does absolutely the thing about this dinner that Anthony

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<v Speaker 2>Alberinezi held with Felix Lee, there's nothing obviously wrong about it,

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<v Speaker 2>but it has these little hints, you know, it has

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<v Speaker 2>a hint of alleged murkiness because Felix Lee's father, Philip Lee,

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<v Speaker 2>there were questions around the movements of large amounts of

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<v Speaker 2>money from China into Australia. There was a little hint

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<v Speaker 2>of glamour because he apparently put two point two billion

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<v Speaker 2>dollars through Star Casino. These make it kind of more

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<v Speaker 2>exciting story, But the truth is that type of thing

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<v Speaker 2>is happening all the time, and so it's become the

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<v Speaker 2>case that only when you have these other added elements

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<v Speaker 2>does it become a new story. And that points to

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<v Speaker 2>the ordinariness of the problem. It points to the systemic

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<v Speaker 2>nature of the.

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<v Speaker 1>Problem, still de cap the faction shaping politics behind the

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<v Speaker 1>closed doors. Sean, you mentioned factions. Ikack is exposed in

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<v Speaker 1>the workings of a secretive liberal faction, while Labour's National

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<v Speaker 1>Conference showed how tightly factional deals can control what actually

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<v Speaker 1>happens publicly. What have you noticed about the evolving nature

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<v Speaker 1>of factional power and how it's being used in politics.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, look, many years ago, before I worked directly in politics,

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<v Speaker 2>I went to an event and I think, perhaps ironically,

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<v Speaker 2>it was a fundraiser and GoF Whitler was there, and

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<v Speaker 2>it was the only conversation.

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<v Speaker 1>I ever had with him.

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<v Speaker 2>He was very old and I was very young, and

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<v Speaker 2>he said to me, factions, factions are killing the party.

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<v Speaker 2>Once upon a time there was a division between factions

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<v Speaker 2>and always about their view of politics and their view

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<v Speaker 2>of the world. And so within the Labor Party you

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<v Speaker 2>had the left wing faction pushing for a more left

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<v Speaker 2>wing view of the world. It was pushing not in

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<v Speaker 2>a pure sense, but for a kind of socialist view

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<v Speaker 2>of the way things should be. And then there was

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<v Speaker 2>the right wing of the party, which had a more

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<v Speaker 2>pragmatic view of politics, perhaps a more conservative view of

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<v Speaker 2>the economy, and they wouldn't it out. And that battle

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<v Speaker 2>for principle, that battle for different views of the world

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<v Speaker 2>has with time been lost. You know, it is widely

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<v Speaker 2>said the factions have turned into vehicles for promotion, They've

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<v Speaker 2>turned into vehicles for careers. This is why I come

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<v Speaker 2>back to this question of the aesthetic. So ordinary Australians

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<v Speaker 2>aren't paying attention to this dinner that Anthony Albanize he had,

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<v Speaker 2>and they're not paying attention to the fundraisers that all

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<v Speaker 2>of the political parties have, but they are getting an

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<v Speaker 2>overall sense of politics. They're getting an overall sense of

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<v Speaker 2>politics that opens the door for somebody like Donald Trump

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<v Speaker 2>to come in. That opens the doors like Pauline Hanson

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<v Speaker 2>to come in, which is ironic because Pauline Hanson, we know,

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<v Speaker 2>is absolutely tied up with Gina Reinhart. You know, there's

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<v Speaker 2>no purity on behalf of one nation here, quite the opposite.

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<v Speaker 2>But how to ordinary people navigate through politics. It's a

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<v Speaker 2>matter of glancing every now and then at the news.

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<v Speaker 2>The overall sense you have, theesthetic and the sense Donald

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<v Speaker 2>Trump and Pauline Hansen they are not trying to repel,

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<v Speaker 2>meaning in fact, they are often giving you a very

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<v Speaker 2>very good sense of what they stand for and what

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<v Speaker 2>they want to do.

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<v Speaker 1>And so even.

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<v Speaker 2>Though they are absolutely tied up with money as much

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<v Speaker 2>as anybody else, there is this sense that they are

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<v Speaker 2>immune from the overall operation of influence and elites in

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<v Speaker 2>this country and every other country. To a fairly large extent.

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<v Speaker 2>That is on the major political parties for allowing that

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<v Speaker 2>impression to grow over time.

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<v Speaker 1>And that impression makes them seem more authentic, and therein

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<v Speaker 1>lies the political opportunity for the populace right and other

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<v Speaker 1>populist movements exactly Sean. We're often told Australians need a

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<v Speaker 1>better understanding of how democracy and its institutions work. How

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<v Speaker 1>much does that matter when people don't believe those institutions

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<v Speaker 1>so even working for them in the first place.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, I mean, this is absolutely the number the problem.

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<v Speaker 2>So there were these two interesting facts that came out

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<v Speaker 2>of the last fortnight. One was a survey from the

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<v Speaker 2>Reserve Bank of Australia that was about trust in the

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<v Speaker 2>bank and understanding of the Australians. About half of Australians

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<v Speaker 2>really do not understand or misunderstand the relationship between interest

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<v Speaker 2>rates and inflation, the relationship between interest rates and economic activity,

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<v Speaker 2>which is remarkable considering how much of our public debate

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<v Speaker 2>that's consumed over the last few years.

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<v Speaker 1>And how much it affects people's lives exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>We know that people's trust in institutions in democracy has

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<v Speaker 2>been declining. The Reserve Bank's own survey of trust shows

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<v Speaker 2>I think the average was five point five out of ten,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think this means that there is the potential

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<v Speaker 2>for people's approach, attitude to institutions and the way we

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<v Speaker 2>are governed to really spiral. The problem has been that politics,

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<v Speaker 2>for several decades now has moved too far in the

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<v Speaker 2>direction of giving advantage to those who are already have advantage.

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<v Speaker 2>There is a sense that governments have become a drift

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<v Speaker 2>from voters, and that is a substantive sense in the

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<v Speaker 2>quality of lives that people feel they are able to

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<v Speaker 2>lead and the quality of ambitions that people feel they

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<v Speaker 2>are able to have. That is what governments need to

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<v Speaker 2>address first and foremost. But you cannot separate that from

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<v Speaker 2>the influence perceived and actual that people with great deals

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<v Speaker 2>of money, businesses with great deals of power have on

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<v Speaker 2>our politics.

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<v Speaker 1>And finally, sean to all of this, has the political

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<v Speaker 1>class actually come to rely on the community's ignorance of

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<v Speaker 1>how our democratic institutions and systems work in order to

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<v Speaker 1>exploit that lack of knowledge and create a well for themselves.

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<v Speaker 1>Where then get away with this type of thing without

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<v Speaker 1>proper scrutiny.

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<v Speaker 2>Because it's a good question, Daniel, it's a complex one.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want to say any of these things are

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<v Speaker 2>quite that conscious, are quite that deliberate. I think what

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<v Speaker 2>happens instead is that a set of assumptions grow up

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<v Speaker 2>over time. Political parties need to raise money, they get

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<v Speaker 2>in an arms race, they have to win elections. They

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<v Speaker 2>try to find the most effective ways of raising money.

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<v Speaker 2>They fall into these habits. They end up mixing with

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<v Speaker 2>a certain class of people, a certain type of very

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<v Speaker 2>powerful business. Those things, over time, reshape the assumptions of politicians.

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<v Speaker 2>They reshape the assumptions of how politics is done. All

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<v Speaker 2>of this is fairly organic. Nobody is setting out to

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<v Speaker 2>create this system. But that is why it is so

0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:38.240
<v Speaker 2>hard to unpick. And I should add labor has made

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<v Speaker 2>some moves over the past couple of years to change

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<v Speaker 2>some of the laws around donations, we will have something

0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:47.960
<v Speaker 2>that is closer to real time donation disclosure. There have

0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:52.000
<v Speaker 2>been various caps placed in the main part. While these

0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.319
<v Speaker 2>things could go further, these are good things. They are

0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:58.720
<v Speaker 2>some significant changes. Whether they make a really significant difference

0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:02.120
<v Speaker 2>to our politics over time, obviously we will only be

0:14:02.120 --> 0:14:04.400
<v Speaker 2>able to tell as we see the operation of those

0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:06.760
<v Speaker 2>laws which kick in in earnest next year.

0:14:07.840 --> 0:14:10.920
<v Speaker 1>Well, dear listener, if you haven't subscribed to seven AM's

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<v Speaker 1>Instagram or YouTube channel, please do just to check out

0:14:13.960 --> 0:14:18.360
<v Speaker 1>Shawn's wonderful jumper Sean. Thank you for joining us once.

0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:19.760
<v Speaker 2>Again, Thanks very much, Daniel.

0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:34.160
<v Speaker 1>Seven Am is a daily show from Solstice Media. Is

0:14:34.200 --> 0:14:38.920
<v Speaker 1>made by Atticus Basto, Chris Dangate, Crystal Color, Renee Auckland,

0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:45.600
<v Speaker 1>Ruby Jones, Travis Evans, Zolvechio and me Daniel James. Our

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<v Speaker 1>theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening, have yourself a great way Kit,