Speaker 1: I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven Am. Susan
Speaker 1: Lee describes herself as a moderate, a Liberal leader who
Speaker 1: wants to keep her party in the center. But last week,
Speaker 1: after months of internal pressure, she led the Coalition to
Speaker 1: formally abandon its commitment to reach net zero emissions by
Speaker 1: twenty fifty, a target first adopted under Scott Morrison, arguing
Speaker 1: that dropping it is the only way to deliver cheaper
Speaker 1: power bills. The decision has pleased conservatives inside the party,
Speaker 1: but it's also raised questions about what Lee herself really
Speaker 1: believes on climate and the future direction of the Liberal
Speaker 1: Party today. Susan Lee on why the Coalition walked away
Speaker 1: from net zero and whether she can hold her party together.
Speaker 1: It's Thursday, November twenty Susan Lee, Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Great to be with you. A few days ago you
Speaker 1: decided to drop net zero.
Speaker 2: Why While Australians deserve affordable energy and responsible emissions reduction
Speaker 2: and the Coalition believes that we can do both, but
Speaker 2: affordable energy must come first.
Speaker 1: So the trifecta of failure.
Speaker 2: Is under this government with prices up, reliability down and
Speaker 2: emissions flatlining.
Speaker 1: Are all you need to know to.
Speaker 2: Absolutely understand how Labour's energy policy is a train wreck.
Speaker 2: But at the heart of all this is affordability for families,
Speaker 2: for businesses, for communities. And as I travel Australia talking
Speaker 2: about our affordable energy plan, I'm hearing real world examples
Speaker 2: of mums and dads leading into Christmas, sitting at the
Speaker 2: kitchen table, worried about how they're going to pay the bills,
Speaker 2: worried about next year, a cost of living crisis. And meanwhile, well,
Speaker 2: we've had a Prime Minister who's promised electricity prices would
Speaker 2: come down for two elections running. They've gone up by
Speaker 2: forty percent. And that's not good enough. It's not good
Speaker 2: enough for struggling families.
Speaker 1: So are you saying the decision to drop the net
Speaker 1: zero emissions target it had nothing to do with Andrew
Speaker 1: Hasty threatening to quit the party over it, with just
Speaker 1: enter prices, public campaign against the policy, pressure from Angus Taylor.
Speaker 2: This is Liberal Party policy coming out of the Liberal
Speaker 2: Party party room. Our team is behind it and our
Speaker 2: Joint Party Room signed off on it on Sunday. Now
Speaker 2: that's enough about process, because Australians don't want to hear
Speaker 2: about our processes. They want to hear about outcomes, and
Speaker 2: they want to hear what we're going to do for them, and.
Speaker 1: They also do want to hear about you and what
Speaker 1: you believe. If you had been a supporter of net
Speaker 1: zero at one point, now you're not. You were once
Speaker 1: in the Parliamentary Friends of Palestine group but changed your position.
Speaker 1: You once supported Graham Samuel's recommendation on environmental reform, but
Speaker 1: you changed your mind. So at this point, is it
Speaker 1: fair enough that many Australians might feel that they don't
Speaker 1: really know what it is that you believe.
Speaker 2: I can come to all of those examples that you've
Speaker 2: given me, Rubin, I'm very happy to. But I want
Speaker 2: to make this point. Leaders should always confront the realities
Speaker 2: that we see in front of us, and the reality
Speaker 2: of the economy and energy policy is one that demands
Speaker 2: the response that we've given.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 2: We do believe in responsible emissions, we do believe in
Speaker 2: playing our part globally, and that's why we are signed
Speaker 2: on to the Paris Agreement. And we do believe that
Speaker 2: priority must be given to affordable energy. Because when you
Speaker 2: consider some of the data points, if I can call them,
Speaker 2: that of Labour's energy failures. You see Australians shaking their
Speaker 2: head in bewilderment. We're a country with abundant energy supplies.
Speaker 2: We've got the second or third largest resources of energy
Speaker 2: in the world and our exports reflect that. Meanwhile, we're
Speaker 2: building import terminals for LNG that will come on a
Speaker 2: ship from the Middle East. Imagine the carbon footprint of
Speaker 2: that liquefying natural gas traveling thousands of kilometers and then
Speaker 2: being unloaded onto the East Coast to get back into
Speaker 2: our power grid. Costs are going through the roof. The
Speaker 2: renewable energy roll ad is blowing out in cost. We
Speaker 2: support renewables in the right place, but we support a
Speaker 2: grid that has a balanced energy system basedload power, dispatchable power. Yes, renewables,
Speaker 2: and right now this government's policy is all wrong. So
Speaker 2: you talk about me, I'm here for the Australian people
Speaker 2: and for what they deserve to see from the leadership
Speaker 2: of this country when it comes to backing them in.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about leadership. There are reports that Andrew Hasty
Speaker 1: or Angus Taylor, backed by members of the Moderates, could
Speaker 1: mount a challenge. So how worried are you?
Speaker 2: This is just commentary speculation and it's commentary on commentary
Speaker 2: to be perfectly honest, and I won't lose focus for
Speaker 2: a single minute on what I am dedicated to, which
Speaker 2: is to our affordable energy plan.
Speaker 1: And it's not just energy.
Speaker 2: I mean I can talk about the things that we've
Speaker 2: undertaken to do in the six months since I became leader,
Speaker 2: and I've set clear policy areas of living within our means,
Speaker 2: budget responsibility. We don't have that from this government. Of
Speaker 2: a plan for lower personal income tax cuts in the
Speaker 2: lead up to the next election, changing the industrial relations
Speaker 2: rules so that employers and employees get a better deal,
Speaker 2: and of course keeping communities safe because particularly in Victoria,
Speaker 2: we're seeing a real lack of application by governments to
Speaker 2: exactly that. But right now, energy is the economy and
Speaker 2: that's why it's such an important thing to be talking
Speaker 2: about because it's built in to every step of a
Speaker 2: supply chain, to the goods we receive, to our sovereign
Speaker 2: manufacturing capability that is declining rapidly. Do we really want
Speaker 2: to be a country where we don't make things in
Speaker 2: Australia anymore? Unfortunately, that's where we're heading. With nineteen hundred
Speaker 2: manufacturing businesses closing since labor came to power and everyone
Speaker 2: feeling the pressure. So the message on energy is central
Speaker 2: to my leadership in terms of how we present to
Speaker 2: the Australian people because I'm here for families. I'm here
Speaker 2: for Australians who are struggling.
Speaker 1: Would you like to comment any more directly? I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm curious as to what you think of Andrew Hasty.
Speaker 1: He posts a lot on Instagram, but he's been criticized
Speaker 1: for being absent during the last election, for not effectively
Speaker 1: arguing on his portfolio of defense. So would he be
Speaker 1: a good Liberal Party leader or do you worry that
Speaker 1: he might be a bit lazy.
Speaker 2: Every one of my colleagues has participated in the policy
Speaker 2: direction that we have and the policy that we announced
Speaker 2: on energy came out of a party room where we
Speaker 2: were all participating and the Nationals and the Liberals met,
Speaker 2: and this is coalition policy. And I'm pleased and proud
Speaker 2: of every single one of my team and the role
Speaker 2: that they play, and the fact that I said from
Speaker 2: the beginning as leader, I would enfranchise every single person
Speaker 2: to have their say and contribute to policy.
Speaker 1: But you know what, Ruby.
Speaker 2: Australians, I don't know whether they necessarily want to hear
Speaker 2: about this in the bubble in the Beltway stuff. I
Speaker 2: think what they need to hear from us is what
Speaker 2: we're going to do for them. And it's vital that
Speaker 2: we demonstrate, as we are with this plan, what we
Speaker 2: are going to do for them, and that is have
Speaker 2: a plan that brings down power prices so we can
Speaker 2: have affordable energy for households and so that we can
Speaker 2: be a country that makes things again. And I think
Speaker 2: of my six grandchildren, I think of the next generations,
Speaker 2: and I think of the fact that they are set
Speaker 2: to inherit a lower standard of living than their parents
Speaker 2: and grandparents.
Speaker 1: That is just not right.
Speaker 2: And will you consider that housing is just so important
Speaker 2: for the future of young people and for our standard
Speaker 2: of living, and that everything that goes into building a
Speaker 2: house is getting more and more expensive under this government's
Speaker 2: energy policy, where you're punished if you make in Australia steel, aluminium, cement, plastic, glass, bitumen.
Speaker 2: So these supply chains are going offshore. Do we really
Speaker 2: want to be a country where we bring everything in
Speaker 2: on a boat from China? Do we really want a
Speaker 2: situation where we don't make the vital ingredients for our
Speaker 2: manufacturing industrialized base going forward, and we're able to offer
Speaker 2: houses that are affordable to all Australians.
Speaker 1: That's what our energy policy is about too. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about the energy policy because the industry, so the International
Speaker 1: Energy Agency, this ESAR, the Australian Energy Council, which represents
Speaker 1: major energy companies, they all say that transitioning to renewables
Speaker 1: is the cheapest path for Australia.
Speaker 2: Well, transitioning to renewables as done by this government is
Speaker 2: clearly not the cheapest path. Otherwise electricity prices, power prices
Speaker 2: wouldn't be going up by forty percent and gas prices
Speaker 2: wouldn't be going up by forty percent. So the first
Speaker 2: point to make is the government has got it wrong already.
Speaker 2: They've spent seventy five billion dollars on the energy transition,
Speaker 2: and the Business Council has forecasts it will cost another
Speaker 2: five hundred and thirty billion to get to the twenty
Speaker 2: thirty five targets alone that they have recently talked about.
Speaker 2: But when they renount, when they announced those twenty thirty
Speaker 2: five targets, they didn't say how much they would cost,
Speaker 2: and they didn't have any credibility surrounding them. So what
Speaker 2: we're dealing with is what I said at the beginning
Speaker 2: of this conversation, the actually economic reality that we're facing
Speaker 2: and how we must get energy affordable for Australians. And
Speaker 2: I support renewables. We support renewables, but the transition has
Speaker 2: to be managed in a way that puts affordability front
Speaker 2: and center.
Speaker 1: So what is your answer to the question then of
Speaker 1: how will imagining and that zero target deliver cheaper gas?
Speaker 2: Well, we need to get gas into the system. And
Speaker 2: when we consider that we're importing gas from overseas and
Speaker 2: that we're not using the abundance supplies of gas in
Speaker 2: this country, you can see immediately how expensive gas is
Speaker 2: if we don't do it right. So we have as
Speaker 2: part of our policy and East Coast gas reservation scheme,
Speaker 2: and that's vital. Now you mentioned Graham Samu and you
Speaker 2: mentioned environmental approvals with respect the Samuel report that I
Speaker 2: commissioned and presented to the government at that time was
Speaker 2: refused by them, and there were many inputs into a
Speaker 2: final policy process that included that report and included.
Speaker 1: Business and industry as well.
Speaker 2: So we know that we have to put the need
Speaker 2: for approvals that generate the industries we need, the natural
Speaker 2: resources that Australians will rely on and always have relied on,
Speaker 2: balanced with environmental protection always very important. Of course, we
Speaker 2: just haven't seen that either in the government's record or
Speaker 2: in its policy proposals, because what it's proposing is actually
Speaker 2: not about increasing the supply of the natural resources that.
Speaker 1: We need to power our country. It's not about that
Speaker 1: at all.
Speaker 2: It's about holding us back and the energy cost failures
Speaker 2: are a clear demonstration of that.
Speaker 1: Coming up, why Susan Lee says she's not going to
Speaker 1: pay attention to the polls, Let's talk about public support
Speaker 1: for the Coalition under your leadership right now. I don't
Speaker 1: have to tell you how bad the polls are. But
Speaker 1: as well as that one nation is right now enjoying
Speaker 1: its highest support ever and many of their new supporters,
Speaker 1: I think is safe to presume our ex coalition voters.
Speaker 1: So why do you think those voters are leaving? We're
Speaker 1: Australians every day, and we vote every three years, and
Speaker 1: our policy reaches every Australian in every corner of this country,
Speaker 1: and it's important to make that clear. I'm not going
Speaker 1: to reflect on how voters might change their votes from
Speaker 1: time to time. Yes, we did very badly at the
Speaker 1: last election. I said so then, and then I said
Speaker 1: about developing a serious, compelling policy agenda that answers the
Speaker 1: questions that Australians want answered. How are we going to
Speaker 1: support our families, maintain our small businesses, bring out our
Speaker 1: children in the country where they have a higher standard
Speaker 1: of living than we do. How can we bring affordable
Speaker 1: energy to every step of the process. So these are important,
Speaker 1: important policy areas and ones that my team and I
Speaker 1: are fighting for on behalf of Australians. You've been widely
Speaker 1: regarded as a moderate leader of the Liberal Party who
Speaker 1: doesn't want to see the party lurch further to the right.
Speaker 1: But can I take you back to January twenty sixth
Speaker 1: of this year. You said that the colonization of Australia
Speaker 1: was like Elon Musk going to Mars, and the first
Speaker 1: settlers were like astronauts. So is comparing first Nations Australia
Speaker 1: to Mars your idea of moderate.
Speaker 2: I think I would encourage you to read the entirety
Speaker 2: of my speech because the takeout there is not the
Speaker 2: correct one. And I said in that speech, well, I
Speaker 2: reflected as I always do on the three great strands
Speaker 2: that make up modern Australia.
Speaker 1: Our first Australians with.
Speaker 2: All of their history, culture and heritage, our European settlement,
Speaker 2: and our modern migrant nation. And those three strands are
Speaker 2: interwoven through every sector of Australian society today. And clearly
Speaker 2: we didn't get it all right at the time, and
Speaker 2: we need to be clear eyed about that. So for
Speaker 2: those who quite frequently like just quote one or two
Speaker 2: sentences from a speech I made, I always encourage them
Speaker 2: to read the whole speech and the whole context.
Speaker 1: At the time you stood by those comments. It sounds
Speaker 1: like you still do, yes, I do. Just finally, back
Speaker 1: to net zero. For many voters, walking away from net zero,
Speaker 1: it equates to walking away from climate action. That's how
Speaker 1: they see it. So without that emissions reductions goal in place,
Speaker 1: how will the coalition reduce emissions enough to combat the
Speaker 1: catastrophes are very real catastrophes of climate change.
Speaker 2: Will reduce emissions year on year on average, in line
Speaker 2: with comparable countries and as fast and as far as
Speaker 2: technology will allow, and that is part of our plan.
Speaker 2: Our plan is about responsible emissions reduction, and I do
Speaker 2: care about the climate. And when I was elected, I
Speaker 2: said I would meet middle of Australians, young as Astralian's,
Speaker 2: Old Australians, rural, suburban, everyone everywhere. And I've done that
Speaker 2: and I have heard people's concerns. But what I've also
Speaker 2: seen is government policy and how it's genuinely letting down
Speaker 2: people who are concerned about the climate. I have that
Speaker 2: in mind when I look at the next generations and
Speaker 2: my own grandchildren. What we've got is prices going up,
Speaker 2: reliability going down, and emission flatlining. And I talked about
Speaker 2: the supply chain of building products to build houses in Australia,
Speaker 2: and I'll give you another example. If we're pushing that
Speaker 2: supply chain offshore so that we're importing what we need
Speaker 2: to build houses increasingly over time, then that's not helping
Speaker 2: reduce emissions globally because the emissions in the production of
Speaker 2: those parts of building a house or go offshore. So
Speaker 2: we have to be clear eyed, we have to be honest,
Speaker 2: and we have to look at how Australia can responsibly
Speaker 2: play its part while remaining committed to the Paris Agreement,
Speaker 2: which is about the global challenge of climate change.
Speaker 1: Susan Lee, thank you so much for your time. That's
Speaker 1: a pleasure. Also in the news, the US Senate has
Speaker 1: approved legislation to force the release of Justice Department files
Speaker 1: on convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein following a vote in
Speaker 1: the House. It's an outcome. President Donald Trump had fought
Speaker 1: for months, dismissing criticism of the government's handling of the
Speaker 1: Epstein case as a Democrat hoax, before finally ending his opposition,
Speaker 1: saying he'll sign the measure when it reaches his desk.
Speaker 1: Survivors of Jeffrey Epstein gathered on Capitol Hill to watch
Speaker 1: the outcome of the vote, and police and courts will
Speaker 1: be given greater powers to combat public displays of Nazi
Speaker 1: ideology in New South Wales following a rally outside state
Speaker 1: parliament earlier this month. The rally saw a group of
Speaker 1: about sixty men clad in black, displaying a banner calling
Speaker 1: to abolish the Jewish Lobby and chanting slogans associated with
Speaker 1: Hitler Youth. The New South Wales government says it'll move
Speaker 1: to ban conduct which indicates support for Nazi ideology without
Speaker 1: reasonable excuse and in public. I'm Ruby Jones, this is
Speaker 1: seven am. Thanks for listening,