WEBVTT - Sussan Ley on ditching net zero

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven Am. Susan

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<v Speaker 1>Lee describes herself as a moderate, a Liberal leader who

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<v Speaker 1>wants to keep her party in the center. But last week,

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<v Speaker 1>after months of internal pressure, she led the Coalition to

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<v Speaker 1>formally abandon its commitment to reach net zero emissions by

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<v Speaker 1>twenty fifty, a target first adopted under Scott Morrison, arguing

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<v Speaker 1>that dropping it is the only way to deliver cheaper

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<v Speaker 1>power bills. The decision has pleased conservatives inside the party,

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<v Speaker 1>but it's also raised questions about what Lee herself really

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<v Speaker 1>believes on climate and the future direction of the Liberal

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<v Speaker 1>Party today. Susan Lee on why the Coalition walked away

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<v Speaker 1>from net zero and whether she can hold her party together.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Thursday, November twenty Susan Lee, Welcome to the show.

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<v Speaker 1>Great to be with you. A few days ago you

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<v Speaker 1>decided to drop net zero.

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<v Speaker 2>Why While Australians deserve affordable energy and responsible emissions reduction

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<v Speaker 2>and the Coalition believes that we can do both, but

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<v Speaker 2>affordable energy must come first.

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<v Speaker 1>So the trifecta of failure.

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<v Speaker 2>Is under this government with prices up, reliability down and

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<v Speaker 2>emissions flatlining.

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<v Speaker 1>Are all you need to know to.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely understand how Labour's energy policy is a train wreck.

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<v Speaker 2>But at the heart of all this is affordability for families,

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<v Speaker 2>for businesses, for communities. And as I travel Australia talking

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<v Speaker 2>about our affordable energy plan, I'm hearing real world examples

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<v Speaker 2>of mums and dads leading into Christmas, sitting at the

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<v Speaker 2>kitchen table, worried about how they're going to pay the bills,

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<v Speaker 2>worried about next year, a cost of living crisis. And meanwhile, well,

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<v Speaker 2>we've had a Prime Minister who's promised electricity prices would

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<v Speaker 2>come down for two elections running. They've gone up by

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<v Speaker 2>forty percent. And that's not good enough. It's not good

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<v Speaker 2>enough for struggling families.

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<v Speaker 1>So are you saying the decision to drop the net

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<v Speaker 1>zero emissions target it had nothing to do with Andrew

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<v Speaker 1>Hasty threatening to quit the party over it, with just

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<v Speaker 1>enter prices, public campaign against the policy, pressure from Angus Taylor.

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<v Speaker 2>This is Liberal Party policy coming out of the Liberal

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<v Speaker 2>Party party room. Our team is behind it and our

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<v Speaker 2>Joint Party Room signed off on it on Sunday. Now

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<v Speaker 2>that's enough about process, because Australians don't want to hear

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<v Speaker 2>about our processes. They want to hear about outcomes, and

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<v Speaker 2>they want to hear what we're going to do for them, and.

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<v Speaker 1>They also do want to hear about you and what

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<v Speaker 1>you believe. If you had been a supporter of net

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<v Speaker 1>zero at one point, now you're not. You were once

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<v Speaker 1>in the Parliamentary Friends of Palestine group but changed your position.

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<v Speaker 1>You once supported Graham Samuel's recommendation on environmental reform, but

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<v Speaker 1>you changed your mind. So at this point, is it

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<v Speaker 1>fair enough that many Australians might feel that they don't

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<v Speaker 1>really know what it is that you believe.

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<v Speaker 2>I can come to all of those examples that you've

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<v Speaker 2>given me, Rubin, I'm very happy to. But I want

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<v Speaker 2>to make this point. Leaders should always confront the realities

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<v Speaker 2>that we see in front of us, and the reality

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<v Speaker 2>of the economy and energy policy is one that demands

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<v Speaker 2>the response that we've given.

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<v Speaker 1>Now.

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<v Speaker 2>We do believe in responsible emissions, we do believe in

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<v Speaker 2>playing our part globally, and that's why we are signed

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<v Speaker 2>on to the Paris Agreement. And we do believe that

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<v Speaker 2>priority must be given to affordable energy. Because when you

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<v Speaker 2>consider some of the data points, if I can call them,

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<v Speaker 2>that of Labour's energy failures. You see Australians shaking their

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<v Speaker 2>head in bewilderment. We're a country with abundant energy supplies.

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<v Speaker 2>We've got the second or third largest resources of energy

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<v Speaker 2>in the world and our exports reflect that. Meanwhile, we're

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<v Speaker 2>building import terminals for LNG that will come on a

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<v Speaker 2>ship from the Middle East. Imagine the carbon footprint of

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<v Speaker 2>that liquefying natural gas traveling thousands of kilometers and then

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<v Speaker 2>being unloaded onto the East Coast to get back into

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<v Speaker 2>our power grid. Costs are going through the roof. The

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<v Speaker 2>renewable energy roll ad is blowing out in cost. We

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<v Speaker 2>support renewables in the right place, but we support a

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<v Speaker 2>grid that has a balanced energy system basedload power, dispatchable power. Yes, renewables,

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<v Speaker 2>and right now this government's policy is all wrong. So

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<v Speaker 2>you talk about me, I'm here for the Australian people

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<v Speaker 2>and for what they deserve to see from the leadership

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<v Speaker 2>of this country when it comes to backing them in.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's talk about leadership. There are reports that Andrew Hasty

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<v Speaker 1>or Angus Taylor, backed by members of the Moderates, could

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<v Speaker 1>mount a challenge. So how worried are you?

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<v Speaker 2>This is just commentary speculation and it's commentary on commentary

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<v Speaker 2>to be perfectly honest, and I won't lose focus for

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<v Speaker 2>a single minute on what I am dedicated to, which

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<v Speaker 2>is to our affordable energy plan.

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<v Speaker 1>And it's not just energy.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean I can talk about the things that we've

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<v Speaker 2>undertaken to do in the six months since I became leader,

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<v Speaker 2>and I've set clear policy areas of living within our means,

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<v Speaker 2>budget responsibility. We don't have that from this government. Of

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<v Speaker 2>a plan for lower personal income tax cuts in the

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<v Speaker 2>lead up to the next election, changing the industrial relations

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<v Speaker 2>rules so that employers and employees get a better deal,

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<v Speaker 2>and of course keeping communities safe because particularly in Victoria,

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<v Speaker 2>we're seeing a real lack of application by governments to

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<v Speaker 2>exactly that. But right now, energy is the economy and

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<v Speaker 2>that's why it's such an important thing to be talking

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<v Speaker 2>about because it's built in to every step of a

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<v Speaker 2>supply chain, to the goods we receive, to our sovereign

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<v Speaker 2>manufacturing capability that is declining rapidly. Do we really want

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<v Speaker 2>to be a country where we don't make things in

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<v Speaker 2>Australia anymore? Unfortunately, that's where we're heading. With nineteen hundred

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<v Speaker 2>manufacturing businesses closing since labor came to power and everyone

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<v Speaker 2>feeling the pressure. So the message on energy is central

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<v Speaker 2>to my leadership in terms of how we present to

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<v Speaker 2>the Australian people because I'm here for families. I'm here

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<v Speaker 2>for Australians who are struggling.

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<v Speaker 1>Would you like to comment any more directly? I mean,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm curious as to what you think of Andrew Hasty.

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<v Speaker 1>He posts a lot on Instagram, but he's been criticized

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<v Speaker 1>for being absent during the last election, for not effectively

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<v Speaker 1>arguing on his portfolio of defense. So would he be

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<v Speaker 1>a good Liberal Party leader or do you worry that

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<v Speaker 1>he might be a bit lazy.

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<v Speaker 2>Every one of my colleagues has participated in the policy

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<v Speaker 2>direction that we have and the policy that we announced

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<v Speaker 2>on energy came out of a party room where we

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<v Speaker 2>were all participating and the Nationals and the Liberals met,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is coalition policy. And I'm pleased and proud

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<v Speaker 2>of every single one of my team and the role

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<v Speaker 2>that they play, and the fact that I said from

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<v Speaker 2>the beginning as leader, I would enfranchise every single person

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<v Speaker 2>to have their say and contribute to policy.

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<v Speaker 1>But you know what, Ruby.

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<v Speaker 2>Australians, I don't know whether they necessarily want to hear

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<v Speaker 2>about this in the bubble in the Beltway stuff. I

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<v Speaker 2>think what they need to hear from us is what

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to do for them. And it's vital that

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<v Speaker 2>we demonstrate, as we are with this plan, what we

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<v Speaker 2>are going to do for them, and that is have

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<v Speaker 2>a plan that brings down power prices so we can

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<v Speaker 2>have affordable energy for households and so that we can

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<v Speaker 2>be a country that makes things again. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>of my six grandchildren, I think of the next generations,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think of the fact that they are set

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<v Speaker 2>to inherit a lower standard of living than their parents

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<v Speaker 2>and grandparents.

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<v Speaker 1>That is just not right.

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<v Speaker 2>And will you consider that housing is just so important

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<v Speaker 2>for the future of young people and for our standard

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<v Speaker 2>of living, and that everything that goes into building a

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<v Speaker 2>house is getting more and more expensive under this government's

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<v Speaker 2>energy policy, where you're punished if you make in Australia steel, aluminium, cement, plastic, glass, bitumen.

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<v Speaker 2>So these supply chains are going offshore. Do we really

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<v Speaker 2>want to be a country where we bring everything in

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<v Speaker 2>on a boat from China? Do we really want a

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<v Speaker 2>situation where we don't make the vital ingredients for our

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<v Speaker 2>manufacturing industrialized base going forward, and we're able to offer

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<v Speaker 2>houses that are affordable to all Australians.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what our energy policy is about too. Let's talk

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<v Speaker 1>about the energy policy because the industry, so the International

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<v Speaker 1>Energy Agency, this ESAR, the Australian Energy Council, which represents

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<v Speaker 1>major energy companies, they all say that transitioning to renewables

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<v Speaker 1>is the cheapest path for Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, transitioning to renewables as done by this government is

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<v Speaker 2>clearly not the cheapest path. Otherwise electricity prices, power prices

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be going up by forty percent and gas prices

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<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be going up by forty percent. So the first

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<v Speaker 2>point to make is the government has got it wrong already.

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<v Speaker 2>They've spent seventy five billion dollars on the energy transition,

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<v Speaker 2>and the Business Council has forecasts it will cost another

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<v Speaker 2>five hundred and thirty billion to get to the twenty

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<v Speaker 2>thirty five targets alone that they have recently talked about.

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<v Speaker 2>But when they renount, when they announced those twenty thirty

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<v Speaker 2>five targets, they didn't say how much they would cost,

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<v Speaker 2>and they didn't have any credibility surrounding them. So what

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<v Speaker 2>we're dealing with is what I said at the beginning

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<v Speaker 2>of this conversation, the actually economic reality that we're facing

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<v Speaker 2>and how we must get energy affordable for Australians. And

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<v Speaker 2>I support renewables. We support renewables, but the transition has

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<v Speaker 2>to be managed in a way that puts affordability front

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<v Speaker 2>and center.

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<v Speaker 1>So what is your answer to the question then of

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<v Speaker 1>how will imagining and that zero target deliver cheaper gas?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, we need to get gas into the system. And

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<v Speaker 2>when we consider that we're importing gas from overseas and

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<v Speaker 2>that we're not using the abundance supplies of gas in

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<v Speaker 2>this country, you can see immediately how expensive gas is

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<v Speaker 2>if we don't do it right. So we have as

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<v Speaker 2>part of our policy and East Coast gas reservation scheme,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's vital. Now you mentioned Graham Samu and you

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<v Speaker 2>mentioned environmental approvals with respect the Samuel report that I

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<v Speaker 2>commissioned and presented to the government at that time was

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<v Speaker 2>refused by them, and there were many inputs into a

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<v Speaker 2>final policy process that included that report and included.

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<v Speaker 1>Business and industry as well.

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<v Speaker 2>So we know that we have to put the need

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<v Speaker 2>for approvals that generate the industries we need, the natural

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<v Speaker 2>resources that Australians will rely on and always have relied on,

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<v Speaker 2>balanced with environmental protection always very important. Of course, we

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<v Speaker 2>just haven't seen that either in the government's record or

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<v Speaker 2>in its policy proposals, because what it's proposing is actually

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<v Speaker 2>not about increasing the supply of the natural resources that.

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<v Speaker 1>We need to power our country. It's not about that

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<v Speaker 1>at all.

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<v Speaker 2>It's about holding us back and the energy cost failures

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<v Speaker 2>are a clear demonstration of that.

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<v Speaker 1>Coming up, why Susan Lee says she's not going to

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<v Speaker 1>pay attention to the polls, Let's talk about public support

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<v Speaker 1>for the Coalition under your leadership right now. I don't

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<v Speaker 1>have to tell you how bad the polls are. But

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<v Speaker 1>as well as that one nation is right now enjoying

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<v Speaker 1>its highest support ever and many of their new supporters,

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<v Speaker 1>I think is safe to presume our ex coalition voters.

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<v Speaker 1>So why do you think those voters are leaving? We're

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<v Speaker 1>Australians every day, and we vote every three years, and

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<v Speaker 1>our policy reaches every Australian in every corner of this country,

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<v Speaker 1>and it's important to make that clear. I'm not going

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<v Speaker 1>to reflect on how voters might change their votes from

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<v Speaker 1>time to time. Yes, we did very badly at the

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<v Speaker 1>last election. I said so then, and then I said

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<v Speaker 1>about developing a serious, compelling policy agenda that answers the

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<v Speaker 1>questions that Australians want answered. How are we going to

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<v Speaker 1>support our families, maintain our small businesses, bring out our

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<v Speaker 1>children in the country where they have a higher standard

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<v Speaker 1>of living than we do. How can we bring affordable

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<v Speaker 1>energy to every step of the process. So these are important,

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<v Speaker 1>important policy areas and ones that my team and I

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<v Speaker 1>are fighting for on behalf of Australians. You've been widely

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<v Speaker 1>regarded as a moderate leader of the Liberal Party who

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't want to see the party lurch further to the right.

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<v Speaker 1>But can I take you back to January twenty sixth

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<v Speaker 1>of this year. You said that the colonization of Australia

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<v Speaker 1>was like Elon Musk going to Mars, and the first

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<v Speaker 1>settlers were like astronauts. So is comparing first Nations Australia

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<v Speaker 1>to Mars your idea of moderate.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I would encourage you to read the entirety

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<v Speaker 2>of my speech because the takeout there is not the

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<v Speaker 2>correct one. And I said in that speech, well, I

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<v Speaker 2>reflected as I always do on the three great strands

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<v Speaker 2>that make up modern Australia.

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<v Speaker 1>Our first Australians with.

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<v Speaker 2>All of their history, culture and heritage, our European settlement,

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<v Speaker 2>and our modern migrant nation. And those three strands are

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<v Speaker 2>interwoven through every sector of Australian society today. And clearly

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<v Speaker 2>we didn't get it all right at the time, and

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<v Speaker 2>we need to be clear eyed about that. So for

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<v Speaker 2>those who quite frequently like just quote one or two

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<v Speaker 2>sentences from a speech I made, I always encourage them

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<v Speaker 2>to read the whole speech and the whole context.

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<v Speaker 1>At the time you stood by those comments. It sounds

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<v Speaker 1>like you still do, yes, I do. Just finally, back

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<v Speaker 1>to net zero. For many voters, walking away from net zero,

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<v Speaker 1>it equates to walking away from climate action. That's how

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<v Speaker 1>they see it. So without that emissions reductions goal in place,

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<v Speaker 1>how will the coalition reduce emissions enough to combat the

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<v Speaker 1>catastrophes are very real catastrophes of climate change.

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<v Speaker 2>Will reduce emissions year on year on average, in line

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<v Speaker 2>with comparable countries and as fast and as far as

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<v Speaker 2>technology will allow, and that is part of our plan.

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<v Speaker 2>Our plan is about responsible emissions reduction, and I do

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<v Speaker 2>care about the climate. And when I was elected, I

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<v Speaker 2>said I would meet middle of Australians, young as Astralian's,

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<v Speaker 2>Old Australians, rural, suburban, everyone everywhere. And I've done that

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<v Speaker 2>and I have heard people's concerns. But what I've also

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<v Speaker 2>seen is government policy and how it's genuinely letting down

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<v Speaker 2>people who are concerned about the climate. I have that

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<v Speaker 2>in mind when I look at the next generations and

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<v Speaker 2>my own grandchildren. What we've got is prices going up,

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<v Speaker 2>reliability going down, and emission flatlining. And I talked about

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<v Speaker 2>the supply chain of building products to build houses in Australia,

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<v Speaker 2>and I'll give you another example. If we're pushing that

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<v Speaker 2>supply chain offshore so that we're importing what we need

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<v Speaker 2>to build houses increasingly over time, then that's not helping

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<v Speaker 2>reduce emissions globally because the emissions in the production of

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<v Speaker 2>those parts of building a house or go offshore. So

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<v Speaker 2>we have to be clear eyed, we have to be honest,

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<v Speaker 2>and we have to look at how Australia can responsibly

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<v Speaker 2>play its part while remaining committed to the Paris Agreement,

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<v Speaker 2>which is about the global challenge of climate change.

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<v Speaker 1>Susan Lee, thank you so much for your time. That's

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<v Speaker 1>a pleasure. Also in the news, the US Senate has

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<v Speaker 1>approved legislation to force the release of Justice Department files

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<v Speaker 1>on convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein following a vote in

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<v Speaker 1>the House. It's an outcome. President Donald Trump had fought

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<v Speaker 1>for months, dismissing criticism of the government's handling of the

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<v Speaker 1>Epstein case as a Democrat hoax, before finally ending his opposition,

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<v Speaker 1>saying he'll sign the measure when it reaches his desk.

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<v Speaker 1>Survivors of Jeffrey Epstein gathered on Capitol Hill to watch

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<v Speaker 1>the outcome of the vote, and police and courts will

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<v Speaker 1>be given greater powers to combat public displays of Nazi

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<v Speaker 1>ideology in New South Wales following a rally outside state

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<v Speaker 1>parliament earlier this month. The rally saw a group of

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<v Speaker 1>about sixty men clad in black, displaying a banner calling

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<v Speaker 1>to abolish the Jewish Lobby and chanting slogans associated with

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<v Speaker 1>Hitler Youth. The New South Wales government says it'll move

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<v Speaker 1>to ban conduct which indicates support for Nazi ideology without

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<v Speaker 1>reasonable excuse and in public. I'm Ruby Jones, this is

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<v Speaker 1>seven am. Thanks for listening,