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Speaker 1: You're losing life like this precious, this precious life. It's

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Speaker 1: almost like something's calling to you and you're not paying attention.

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Speaker 1: It's like you're not showing up to this life. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it makes me emotional. I think we get this, We

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Speaker 1: get one life, and this question is like, how am

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Speaker 1: I going to show up to it? How are we

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Speaker 1: going to show up to it? And if we can't

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Speaker 1: turn towards it for even one minute a day, what

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Speaker 1: kind of life is this that we're living like? It's

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Speaker 1: it's in the long run and it's not going to

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Speaker 1: be one that's full of vitality and meaning and richness.

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Speaker 1: It takes a lot of courage and bravery, I think

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Speaker 1: to turn towards this fact that, like, I am not

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Speaker 1: where I want to be.

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Speaker 2: Good. Thank you so much for dwanloading the show. This

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Speaker 2: is better than yesterday. Useful tools and useful conversations every

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Speaker 2: single week, every single episodeince twenty thirteen. Thanks for being here.

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Speaker 2: My name's Rosha Ginsburg. I have a question for you.

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Speaker 2: Are you moving toward the kind of life you want? Oh?

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Speaker 2: You know, just a small, small rhetorical question to kick

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Speaker 2: things off today. It's a doozy We're not messing around today.

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Speaker 2: But in some sense, this is the question that we're

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Speaker 2: kind of asking on pretty much every episode of the

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Speaker 2: show that we do here, as well as hopefully providing

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Speaker 2: you ways that maybe can help you do that. Dr

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Speaker 2: Emily Musgrove is here today. She's got a new book

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Speaker 2: called Unstuck. So you're feeling a bit stuck, you want

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Speaker 2: to listen see after we see what to do there

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Speaker 2: that's a segue that's really good, And I'll shut up

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Speaker 2: my place, Mats today's guest, oh quickly before I kick off.

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Speaker 2: Story Club is back on August the seventh. We are

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Speaker 2: at the Factory Theater in merrick Fall. Story Club Live

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Speaker 2: dot com for tickets and you can pre order So

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Speaker 2: what now what the new book right now? You can

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Speaker 2: get a link in the show notes for that. It

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Speaker 2: would be amazing thinking to the people that if you

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Speaker 2: do buy it, screenshot that you bought it and send

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Speaker 2: it to me sandos Her email at Jimi dot com

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Speaker 2: and I'll send you back a little something to say

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Speaker 2: thank you. But yeah, the new book's coming out on

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Speaker 2: the fifth of August. I'm super duper duper proud of it.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, let's get to our guests. Dr Emily Muskrove,

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Speaker 2: if you might remember her from a podcast called The Imperfect. Yes,

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Speaker 2: that doctor Emily. She's with us today. She's amazing. She's

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Speaker 2: got some fantastic ideas in this conversation. And you know,

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Speaker 2: generally we cover that question, Look, are you moving towards

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Speaker 2: the life that you want, the kind of life you want?

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Speaker 2: Because if you're not moving toward the kind of life

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Speaker 2: you want, you could be feeling what Dodtor Emily describes

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Speaker 2: as stuck. She's written a new book called Unstuck. It's

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Speaker 2: a fantastic book. She's a great, great thinker. I really

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Speaker 2: love the way she puts things because there are so

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Speaker 2: many things that can get us stuck in life. Perhaps

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Speaker 2: it might be the situations we find ourselves in. It

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Speaker 2: might be some emotions or some thoughts we have about

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Speaker 2: something this always happens or they never do this, something

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Speaker 2: like this, the stories we have about ourselves, the stories

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Speaker 2: we have about others. We can get stuck in these things.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Emil. He's going to takeus through a lot of

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Speaker 2: that stuff today, some pretty simple ways to disarm the effects,

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Speaker 2: the paralyzing effects that can have in our lives. And

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Speaker 2: there's a lot more, a lot more to take away.

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Speaker 2: She dropped a lot of gold. This is a pretty

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Speaker 2: much one of those episodes that comes along every now

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Speaker 2: and again on this show where it's more like a

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Speaker 2: masterclass in mental health. It's something you want to come

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Speaker 2: back to time and again. It's been wonderful reliving this

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Speaker 2: conversation to publish episodes. So I hope you enjoy Doctor

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Speaker 2: Ewily Musgrove. Hey, thanks for coming in late.

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Speaker 1: It's okay.

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Speaker 2: I appreciate that. What are you doing on the East Coast? Like,

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Speaker 2: how did you get time away from the small people

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Speaker 2: that wake up early?

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Speaker 1: Well, that's a good question. I don't know. This is

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Speaker 1: the longest I will have been away from them actually,

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Speaker 1: Like they're super excited for me, and I'm excited, but

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Speaker 1: also you know, holding at the same time, like a

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Speaker 1: missing them part, Like if they could just be out there,

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Speaker 1: they'd be lovely.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but then blackout curtains and hotel rooms and oh

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Speaker 2: that to dream. You know, the people know you because

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Speaker 2: of podcasts, but you know you became what you are

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Speaker 2: well before podcasts existed. Why was it that made you

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Speaker 2: want to go towards mental health as a career?

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's a long like, that's a long story.

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Speaker 2: We have a podcast, we have Tom. I know I

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Speaker 2: was late, but you know, if that's the only answer

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Speaker 2: we get, I'll be happy with it. Oh.

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Speaker 1: I've been fascinating, like absolutely fascinated about like what it

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Speaker 1: means to be humans since I was probably like seven

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Speaker 1: or eight. I just find it so fascinating.

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Speaker 2: Hang on, wait, wait, wait, so you're seven or eight. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: what's the question that pops in your head that makes you,

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Speaker 2: as an adult go? I've been fascinated with being a

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Speaker 2: human since I was at all What was the moment.

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Speaker 1: I have memories of being probably in like year three

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Speaker 1: or year four, and we had like this weird introduction

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Speaker 1: to like philosophy, like as like a like a little kid.

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Speaker 1: I just remember my brain going like whoa, what would

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Speaker 1: that person do? And I think I think it's just

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Speaker 1: I've just always been really curious and that sticks out

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Speaker 1: like that particular like small introduction to philosophy. Yeah, and then.

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Speaker 2: The difference between like a utilitarian approach or something like that.

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Speaker 1: More like moral dilemmas, like this person's presenter with this option,

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Speaker 1: but if they do this, then they won't get this.

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Speaker 1: And I just I'm thinking, like oh, what would you do?

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Speaker 1: What would you do? And that was just like a

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Speaker 1: little eight year old me that was like thinking that way,

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Speaker 1: I think, But.

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Speaker 2: That's that's extraordinary. You have this, you actually have a

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Speaker 2: recollection of when you can kind of point to that

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Speaker 2: probably happened before that, but like my theory one kind

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Speaker 2: of at least was there by then. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I think I also have a feeling, like I

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Speaker 1: just remembered the feeling of being interested, like yeah, and

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Speaker 1: that that's the same feeling I get when I actually

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Speaker 1: getting she was what to say this when like when

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Speaker 1: I'm sitting with the client, because like I just want

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Speaker 1: to I'm just so curious, like I want to know

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Speaker 1: what this person's experience is like, and that that that's

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Speaker 1: like a flow state, like really like when I'm there,

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Speaker 1: like when I'm in like in motor therapy. That's the

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Speaker 1: that's the feeling. I think that probably went back like

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Speaker 1: way way way long ago. Yeah, But I also think

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Speaker 1: that there's probably like even some temperament stuff in there,

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Speaker 1: like and family of origin stuff like I'm a long

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Speaker 1: long time people pleaser, and I like I know that

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Speaker 1: that part of that is like an attuvement to other

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Speaker 1: people's emotions, So I don't. I think I was repeatedly told,

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Speaker 1: like in childhood and definitely an adolescence. I'm a really

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Speaker 1: good listener, and I think like that that message, when

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Speaker 1: it gets kind of told repeatedly, then probably intuitively opens

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Speaker 1: up these questions like what am.

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Speaker 2: I going to do? When you're first out there in

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Speaker 2: your training and you are presented with someone who's clearly distressed.

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Speaker 2: You're a kid, You're like he twenty twenty two. Maybe

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Speaker 2: what's that like the first time you realize I could

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Speaker 2: really mess this up? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Oh it's terrifying. Gosh. I remember it's so vividly in

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Speaker 1: training and the first time someone expressed like suicidal thoughts, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I was just like, I'm not equipped. I have

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Speaker 1: no idea, and like all your instincts are like I

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Speaker 1: just want to say something that will help them feel better,

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Speaker 1: but it's not my words. And I think that's the

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Speaker 1: learning is like it's never my words that are going

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Speaker 1: to stop someone from going down that pathway, it's something else.

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Speaker 1: And that took I think that took a long time

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Speaker 1: to really recognize. Yeah, but yes, absolutely it's eye opening

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Speaker 1: when you first get exposed to like the breadth of

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Speaker 1: like lived experiences and with that comes like quite a

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Speaker 1: lot of terror.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and once you start thinking about it as well,

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Speaker 2: these are the people that have sought help.

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Speaker 1: And the people that are seeking help also have the

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Speaker 1: means to seek help. This is the being human part.

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Speaker 1: Run like that all of us will encounter something, but

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Speaker 1: some of us will encounter significantly more than others, and

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Speaker 1: it's often those people that don't have the access or

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Speaker 1: the main to actually seek the help.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, You'll sit there and someone will unload on you

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Speaker 2: something that is like heavy duty, and then you go

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Speaker 2: home and you got to be around your family. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and like, can you give us an idea of how

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Speaker 2: you maintain what you need to maintain so you can

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Speaker 2: be of service to others doing this work.

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Speaker 1: Meditation practice for me is really important some sort of pausing.

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Speaker 1: So like when I leave my office, for example, if

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Speaker 1: I was on autopilot, which is very like I very

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Speaker 1: commonly could be, I will get in the car, turn

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Speaker 1: on a podcast or I'll turn on music, and I've

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Speaker 1: shifted from sitting in a space with other people's pain

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Speaker 1: and distress concentrating listening, and then I've moved into autopilot

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Speaker 1: into being in the car, going through the motions, more talking,

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Speaker 1: more noise. I get into the door, my kids are

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Speaker 1: very very excited to see me. Then it's dinner, bath,

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Speaker 1: all that stuff. At no point during that time have

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Speaker 1: I been able to stop and pause. So sometimes, like

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Speaker 1: when I get in the car, I will take a breath,

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Speaker 1: slow down, and I won't listen to anything because I

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Speaker 1: actually just need a moment to let this settle and

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Speaker 1: to be able to kind of ground in my body.

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Speaker 1: It even just to notice, like, oh, this was a

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Speaker 1: heavy day today, Like this was there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of pain here, and I need to honor it, Like

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Speaker 1: I need to honor that the stuff that we experience

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Speaker 1: as humans is like is unbelievable, Like the pain and

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Speaker 1: the struggle that we encounter can be immensely like excruciatingly distressing.

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Speaker 1: But I also need to be able to contain it,

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Speaker 1: and so like I give it some space, I have

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Speaker 1: a bit of quiet, and then I always take your breath,

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Speaker 1: and like then we move into the next part of

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Speaker 1: the day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've yeah, I'm not alone in this, but I

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Speaker 2: found talk therapy to be extraordinarily transformative in my life.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it's worked just by itself sometimes I've needed of

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Speaker 2: the old selective serotoniny uptake, and he better listen to the

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Speaker 2: gears off a bit so I can so things can

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Speaker 2: stick and allow the new thought patterns to kick in. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: when you're in that one on one thing. The biggest

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Speaker 2: thing about psychology is very effective, but it's so hard

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Speaker 2: to replicate at scale. There's one on one is like

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Speaker 2: that's it. You've only you can only do so many

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Speaker 2: in a day, you only do soe many a week

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Speaker 2: before you blow out. And then you also people don't

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Speaker 2: realize it. You also have to go in debrief or

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Speaker 2: this like an ambulance driver at the end of the shift,

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Speaker 2: to make sure you're doing the right thing. So what

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Speaker 2: then is behind I'm not going to be able to

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Speaker 2: get to everybody. I better write some of this stuff

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Speaker 2: down and at least that can get out there. Why

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Speaker 2: write it down? You know?

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Speaker 1: That was kind of part of my I guess motivation

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Speaker 1: for writing a book was this kind of deep acknowledgement

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Speaker 1: that you know, we just can't reach everybody, and also

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Speaker 1: that this was you know, I think I can write

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Speaker 1: this in the book. Then it's not like I said before,

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Speaker 1: it's not my words that will that will cultivate change.

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Speaker 1: It's actually how willing you are to encounter yourself in

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Speaker 1: that process. And so the book, I guess, is like

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Speaker 1: this invitation or maybe like a gateway to really turning

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Speaker 1: towards your own experience. And that is something that you

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Speaker 1: could hold onto, like you could have it with you

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Speaker 1: and maybe there's a readiness or maybe there isn't, but

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Speaker 1: maybe at some point when you're really deep in a struggle,

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Speaker 1: that there is a resource that you could at least

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Speaker 1: kind of turn to as a like even as a

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Speaker 1: stepping stone to more or bigger help.

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Speaker 2: I think, yeah, I've still got the first psychology book

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Speaker 2: I was given by a psychologist when I was twenty six,

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Speaker 2: David Burn's Feeling Good. Yeah right, yeah, you know, the classic. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and as recently as two days ago, it's on my

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Speaker 2: desk right now. I open it up. I was like,

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Speaker 2: how did is that the first time round? Yeah? You

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Speaker 2: read stuff, you know, and you find things. Yeah. Sometimes

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Speaker 2: I think it must be a quirk of who we

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Speaker 2: are good quirk of what makes us human is that

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Speaker 2: if we feel that we're not doing and behaving the

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Speaker 2: same way as others. I don't know if it's internalized.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, but we feel that we're busted. We're broken,

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Speaker 2: all right, What can we get out of going maybe

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Speaker 2: I'm just stuck? How help me get from I'm broken too? Stuck?

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Speaker 1: As a reframe, I think it's really really integral actually

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Speaker 1: and really important reframe because like when we think about

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Speaker 1: this notion and this is so common, right that you

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Speaker 1: get this like this internal dialogue here, I'm broken, I

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Speaker 1: need to be fixed. There's something very bad about me,

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Speaker 1: and it comes with this kind of this belief that's

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Speaker 1: very often held from a young age, this kind of

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Speaker 1: notion of defectiveness, that I am defective, I am broken,

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Speaker 1: And from that place it's really hard for us to

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Speaker 1: make change because we then need to look for ways

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Speaker 1: to be fixed. But I think what feels really very

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Speaker 1: relevant in this work is that pain can't be fixed

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Speaker 1: because pain is normal and pain is part of like us,

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Speaker 1: being human. So we can actually reframe this is there's

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Speaker 1: nothing broken about you. You're a normal human being here

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Speaker 1: with a beating heart, breathing into your lungs. Everything about

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Speaker 1: you is actually completely normal, except that you're really stuck

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Speaker 1: in this struggle with pain. And that's kind of what

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Speaker 1: we work with, and that I think or my hopefulness

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Speaker 1: is that engenders a potential glimmer of hope or a

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Speaker 1: potential that there is action that I can take.

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Speaker 2: What can stuck look like for the purpose of ye,

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Speaker 2: for the rest of our conversation, we could refer back

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Speaker 2: to it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think it looks like a myriad of presentations.

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Speaker 1: I guess like traditionally or traditionally you'd probably see stuck

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Speaker 1: as kind of going through the motions, being an autopilot,

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Speaker 1: feeling unsatisfied, feeling like what's the point? So that's kind

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Speaker 1: of like more this kind of classical presentation of being stuck.

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Speaker 1: But we can also see stuck as being stuck in

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Speaker 1: patterns of negative thinking, for example, or stuck in patterns

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Speaker 1: of a voiddents, stuck making decisions. So it really kind

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Speaker 1: of represents basically as struggle with some kind of pain

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Speaker 1: that's here, or it represents anomness and a disconnection.

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Speaker 2: When you are stuck. What rule does noticing play in

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Speaker 2: that space of being stuck? And if we do find

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Speaker 2: ourselves stuck, what are some things we might want to

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Speaker 2: look out for.

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Speaker 1: I love the noticing word. I'm sure, Yeah, I use

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Speaker 1: it all the time, Like it's the foundation of change

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Speaker 1: quite simply, that we just can't change anything if we're

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Speaker 1: not aware or observing what our experience is. But we

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Speaker 1: don't like to notice because it feels.

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Speaker 2: Really painful, especially if I've been a shit person. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely so if you turn towards this like what sounds

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Speaker 1: like shame, for example, it can be deeply destabilizing, like

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Speaker 1: to hold this feeling here. But it's also information, and

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Speaker 1: I think that's what we miss if we're not noticing.

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Speaker 1: So the noticing requires us to pause and to be

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Speaker 1: still and to slow down, but we don't like doing that.

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Speaker 1: Is it actually exposes us to the uncomfortable feeling. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: So there's lots of different the processes or ways in

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Speaker 1: which we get there, but some sort of some sort

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Speaker 1: of practice that allows us to pause is like a

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Speaker 1: really good starting point.

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Speaker 2: Tell me about the importance of having an action step

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Speaker 2: when you're in that state, because it can feel permanent

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Speaker 2: and it can feel nothing will ever ever be different.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're absolutely right. It is so important having that

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Speaker 1: action step, and the action step can be so minute,

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Speaker 1: it can be you know, if you're, for example, in

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Speaker 1: this kind of state of almost like immobilization and like

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Speaker 1: really paralyzed. I'm so depressed, I'm feeling so overwhelmed. It

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Speaker 1: may be literally, what is my next step? My next

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Speaker 1: step is to put my foot out of the bed,

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Speaker 1: and then what is the next one? So it's like,

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Speaker 1: how do we actually move even with the body in

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Speaker 1: the direction that would be important to me On a

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Speaker 1: bigger scale obviously can be like all right, so today

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Speaker 1: I'm going to call my friend. That's an action step.

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Speaker 1: We need to make it manageable and achievable and sustainable.

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Speaker 1: But the notion of like, we don't make change in stasis.

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Speaker 1: We can't grow in stasis. We only grow with movement.

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Speaker 1: So that's kind of quite an integral part of that.

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Speaker 2: I think, Kim, when I was when I was real bad,

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Speaker 2: I would the day before because I found that if

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Speaker 2: I was in a decision point, I would get just

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Speaker 2: complete paralysis in the moment. So the night before all

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Speaker 2: I would write down almost like a call it like

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Speaker 2: an hourglass kind of list, like if grain of the

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Speaker 2: hourglass going through, I would like, as you mentioned, right

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Speaker 2: foot off the bed, left foot over the bed, stand up,

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Speaker 2: go to the toilet. Yeah, absolutely, get out the coffee beans,

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Speaker 2: grind the coffee beans like that granular and I would

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Speaker 2: just tick them off the list. And I don't have

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Speaker 2: to make any choices yet. I'm just doing I've already

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Speaker 2: picked out the T shirt, right, Yeah, get out the door,

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Speaker 2: go for a run. And I found after a couple

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Speaker 2: of days of doing that, everything felt a lot easier

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Speaker 2: because I wasn't making the choice in the moment. I

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Speaker 2: was so overwhelmed that I was unable to on you

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Speaker 2: and wanted a couple of coffee. But I would just

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Speaker 2: sit there and stay in my kitchen for an hour.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because there were too many steps, you know in

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Speaker 1: that moment. That feeling in the body of paralysis is

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Speaker 1: so distressing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And you don't know you're in it.

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Speaker 2: That's the other really tricky thing. You don't realize you're

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Speaker 2: in it. And I'm kind of grateful in many ways

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Speaker 2: now that that sort of stuff was happening to me

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Speaker 2: before the algorithmic changes in certain scrolly apps, So you

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Speaker 2: never have to actually be with that, yes feeling. Yes,

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Speaker 2: you know, I had a phone that's battery still in

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Speaker 2: the last all day, you know. Yeah, I would just

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Speaker 2: have to be sometimes like sometimes only five ten minutes

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Speaker 2: because I'll go open a laptop. Now you don't even

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Speaker 2: have to be with that.

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Speaker 1: No, no, And there's a real cost of that.

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Speaker 2: What's the cost there?

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Speaker 1: Well, the cost is disconnection and lack of information. Oh god,

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Speaker 1: there's so many things, Like, there's so many things if

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Speaker 1: we are unaware and we're constantly occupied with other things.

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Speaker 1: It's like this sounds a bit weird, but like your

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Speaker 1: mind and your body are constantly giving its information, but

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Speaker 1: we don't know how to read it anymore. Like we

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Speaker 1: just we're so disconnected. So if I notice like the

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Speaker 1: an inkling of like a feeling of anxiousness in my body,

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Speaker 1: you know, one of two things can happen. We either

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Speaker 1: get so overwhelmed by that like that it triggers like

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Speaker 1: a massive spiral of further panic and hypervigilance. Or we

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Speaker 1: move into distract me as soon as possible, Distract me

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Speaker 1: with a substance, distract me with the phone, most commonly,

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Speaker 1: distract me with like excessive exercise. I mean, there are

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Speaker 1: so many, so many ways in which being with this

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Speaker 1: is so intolerable, but inevitably it comes like it comes

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Speaker 1: back at you in some other way. Like there's a

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Speaker 1: cost to your relationships, to vitality, to your work, and

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Speaker 1: also you miss out on all the good stuff. So like,

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Speaker 1: when we spend so much time avoiding it, not only

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Speaker 1: do we avoid the discomfort, we also then throw out

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Speaker 1: our access to the all the wonderful emotions and wonderful,

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Speaker 1: joyful experiences that we can have.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, is that what you describe in the book is

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Speaker 2: experiential avoidance?

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Speaker 1: Yeah right, Yeah, so experiential avoidance is basically like our

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Speaker 1: natural drive to avoid feeling basically and avoid feeling unpleasant

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Speaker 1: experiences in the body, unpleasant thoughts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what happens to us the longer that we avoid

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Speaker 2: sitting with those.

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Speaker 1: Feelings, Oh, like in my experience, the more we avoid,

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Speaker 1: the more that takes us down the pathway of significant

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Speaker 1: mental health issues. Really, absolutely, it's like experiential avoidance or

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Speaker 1: just avoidance, even just naming it plainly is that is

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Speaker 1: associated with almost all mental health conditions. It's a key

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Speaker 1: feature of almost all of them. The more we avoid

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Speaker 1: the pain, the bigger the struggle, and the greater the suffering.

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Speaker 1: So even if it's not like a really simple basis

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Speaker 1: like this is such a simple one. If you avoid

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Speaker 1: a deadline that's coming up like the work required for

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Speaker 1: a deadline. In the short term, it's going to bring

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Speaker 1: you relief RNT yep not, don't still today, don't worry

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Speaker 1: about it. I'll do something else. But then as time

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Speaker 1: goes on, the more you avoid, the bigger the pressure,

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Speaker 1: the less time, the more work you have to do,

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Speaker 1: the more distress you feel. I mean, it's like a

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Speaker 1: really basic example, but if we can apply that to

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Speaker 1: almost all other experiences of avoidance, so in the longer term,

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Speaker 1: the avoidance actually causes like more suffering.

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Speaker 2: I think it's important to describe and really talk about

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Speaker 2: what you just I guess will warn to solve how

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Speaker 2: can you get from I'm not filling out this report

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Speaker 2: today to now dealing with mental illness.

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Speaker 1: So if you think about basically what avoidance does is

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Speaker 1: that it essentially kind of moves you away from the

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Speaker 1: direction of your values. You know, if we're to do

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Speaker 1: something like that like avoid the deadline, and we apply

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Speaker 1: this to many many other circumstances in our life, we're

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Speaker 1: actually moving further and further away from the life that

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Speaker 1: we want to lead, basically, and it's when there's this

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Speaker 1: big gap between where you are and where you want

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Speaker 1: to be that sits like that there's this big gap here.

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Speaker 1: It actually kind of represents this kind of exposure to

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Speaker 1: mental health issues. I'm here in this state of suffering.

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Speaker 1: I want to be over here where I'm experiencing vitality

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Speaker 1: and engagement and presence. But in order to get the

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Speaker 1: engagement and the presence, we have to turn towards what

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Speaker 1: we're avoiding, and we don't want to do that, which

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Speaker 1: of course makes like, of course it makes sense. I

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Speaker 1: guess what I'm saying is that the harder we work

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Speaker 1: to avoid feeling pain, the bigger problems will get, and

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Speaker 1: those problems will lead us down the pathway of experiencing

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Speaker 1: greater mental illness.

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Speaker 2: Just taking a break from doctor Emily for a second

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Speaker 2: back in Ja, ask a moment, So what do you

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Speaker 2: say to someone who's like, well, that's all well and

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Speaker 2: good for you. You're not dealing with what I'm doing

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Speaker 2: with I'm just going to crack this beer and I'll

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Speaker 2: be just fine.

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Speaker 1: To be honest, if that was the case, I would

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Speaker 1: absolutely normalize that. I'm like, yes, like, of course you

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Speaker 1: feel of course you feel better, and that tells me

433
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 1: about how much suffering is here. Like that you want

434
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:34,280
Speaker 1: to get rid of this. So we're kind of really

435
00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:37,439
Speaker 1: starting off with this, like really like deep acknowledgment that

436
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 1: when you have the beer it takes that pain away.

437
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 1: I'm like, I get that, But then i'd look at, okay,

438
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 1: but what is the cost of that to you? So

439
00:22:46,080 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 1: what's the cost of that to you in your relationship

440
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 1: with your partner, what's the cost of that to your health?

441
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 1: How do you feel the next day? How able are

442
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,199
Speaker 1: you to show up to work? So we kind of

443
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,040
Speaker 1: really want to look at, yes, it makes sense that

444
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:03,160
Speaker 1: this is happening, but then let's also look at what's

445
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:06,679
Speaker 1: the cost If there isn't a cost, Like, if this

446
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: is like a behavior that is more flexible, it's not

447
00:23:10,040 --> 00:23:11,879
Speaker 1: happening all the time, then we go, you know what,

448
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: that's fine. It's more when it's like this rigid pattern here,

449
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: I'm doing this every day or I'm doing this frequently.

450
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: When that starts a shop, that's kind of that's the problem.

451
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,920
Speaker 2: Reaching for a scrolly algorithm app or reaching for a

452
00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 2: gambling app or something. Rather than go, ah, that person

453
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 2: didn't text me back yet, I wonder if we had

454
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 2: a good time on the date or not, And I'll

455
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 2: just you know, throw a massive multi on a Singaporean

456
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 2: ping pong thing in a Hong Kong trot race and

457
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 2: this bad mitten matches happening in Indonesia.

458
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 1: Go yeah, yeah, I mean, like, if you're doing that

459
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 1: every day all the time, that's a problem. If you're

460
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 1: doing it on occasion, you know, like, yes, it makes sense,

461
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 1: and it's not kind of moving you so much away

462
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: from the life you want to live. Maybe it's giving

463
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,480
Speaker 1: you like a moment of feeling Okay, this is all right, then.

464
00:23:55,480 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 2: Avoid your feelings responsibly. Yeah, in my ration, exactly so

465
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 2: for people who I mean, I'm quite familiar with the

466
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 2: kind of stuff you're talking about, but for people who

467
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,119
Speaker 2: like this might be news to that. Yeah, even just

468
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:15,160
Speaker 2: describing you know, it's overwhelming to even face that this idea.

469
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: This person didn't text me back, for example, how do

470
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 2: you even walk somebody towards the way that you can

471
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 2: deal with this thing that they want to avoid so much?

472
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,439
Speaker 2: Is it? Again? Is it a granular step that you

473
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,560
Speaker 2: want to take towards it? How do you get there? Yeah?

474
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 1: So, in the book, I've divided the chapters really into steps.

475
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: In reality, in practice, we're doing the steps kind of

476
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 1: all together in some ways, so it's kind of an

477
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: integrated process. But for the ease of kind of understanding,

478
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,360
Speaker 1: Like the first is obviously being able to have an

479
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 1: awareness and cultivating what's called like this observing self. So

480
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 1: the observing self is a metaphor that's commonly used, and

481
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: I think it might have been Russ Harris, author and

482
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,679
Speaker 1: therapist who developed this one. Is this notion of the

483
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 1: observing self is like the blue sky. So the sky

484
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 1: that is always there, it's always blue and it's always clear.

485
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,640
Speaker 1: But what comes across the sky is the weather. And

486
00:25:12,720 --> 00:25:15,919
Speaker 1: so that weather might be like a storm pattern that's

487
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 1: coming across, but if you were to fly above that storm,

488
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 1: we still have this clear blue sky here and that

489
00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,679
Speaker 1: remains untouched by the storm and weather patterns that are

490
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:28,520
Speaker 1: coming across. In that observing self, we have a lot

491
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,680
Speaker 1: of difficulty contacting. Usually we're in the storm. Usually we're

492
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: in the weather. So it's like when the when the

493
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 1: weather is clear, we might be feeling fine, but anytime

494
00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 1: there's kind of a change in the weather patterns, we

495
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: get like really stuck in it. What in some ways

496
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: we're working towards is being able to cultivate like an

497
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 1: achievement to the fact that there is a part of

498
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,840
Speaker 1: you that can observe this weather. And if I can

499
00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 1: observe it, I am not.

500
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 2: It right yep.

501
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 1: And how do we do that?

502
00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 2: Yeah?

503
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,119
Speaker 1: So it's even very simple, like even in how we

504
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: use our language. So something like if I was to

505
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:05,919
Speaker 1: say to you Usha, I'm feeling really anxious, what I

506
00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: could do to kind of cultivate like more of an

507
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,760
Speaker 1: observing self is very very simple, is saying I'm noticing

508
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 1: I'm feeling anxious and so in there, And it sounds

509
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,919
Speaker 1: like it sounds almost like laughably simple. But when we

510
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 1: do that, I mean, do you notice any difference when

511
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: we do that.

512
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:28,440
Speaker 2: I yes, I've talked about I'm noticing being the burpie

513
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 2: of mental health, all right. Everyone hates burpies rightly because

514
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 2: they suck, and it's pretty much ninety something percent of

515
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:37,719
Speaker 2: your body will get worked, and you can do it

516
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 2: in a very small, confined space. You can do it

517
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 2: in a van. So I'm noticing is really for me,

518
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 2: that's the burpie your mental fitness. If you can just

519
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 2: a couple of times that I are sitting alum on

520
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 2: my phone, what am I noticing? I'm icing on will

521
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 2: two pairs of socks. I can find my warm ones

522
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 2: on the motorbike today, and so my chooes are a

523
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 2: little tighter than they usually are. You know, Yeah, that's interesting.

524
00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 2: I'm noting the top of my tummy. I can feel

525
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 2: my pulse on the top of my tummy. Wonder where

526
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 2: that is. I'm noticing their conditioning's pretty pumping than here today.

527
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's night and once you do that, what I

528
00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 2: talk about it is now I'm not those feelings. Yeah,

529
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 2: I'm just observing. But if I don't take the time

530
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 2: to notice them, well, my feet being too tight in

531
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: my shoes will raise my stress levels and cortisol and

532
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 2: my tummy. This I might not realize that I'm now

533
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 2: making choices from a place of being stressed out and

534
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 2: those aren't choices that would reflect who and what I

535
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:32,040
Speaker 2: want to be in that moment.

536
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's like, that's exactly, That's exactly.

537
00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:35,200
Speaker 2: You know.

538
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,199
Speaker 1: It's a little bit like if we're not noticing, if

539
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 1: we're stuck on this kind of really in this reactive pattern.

540
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 1: It's a little bit like our emotions or our thoughts

541
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,639
Speaker 1: are sitting in the driver's seed and where the passenger

542
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: and it's like when this happens, when we're not kind

543
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: of bringing an achievement or an awareness or a noticing,

544
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 1: it's like that anxiety is driving you in the in

545
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: a certain direction, and it will drive you in what's

546
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: called like with a narrow focus or what's called like

547
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: a narrow repertoire of behaviors. So when we get into

548
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 1: this space of reactivity, it's like our choice is actually

549
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: really narrow. But what we're kind of working with with

550
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: the noticing language is that, Okay, so we're going to

551
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: switch seeds and I'm going to sit in the driver's seed,

552
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,480
Speaker 1: and my anxiety or my sadness or my grief can

553
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: come along with me. It's going to sit here in

554
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: this passenger seed and we will move forward whether this

555
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: pain is here or not. Easy in theory, it's really

556
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,480
Speaker 1: hard in practice. I really want to acknowledge that.

557
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, it is really hard because we

558
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 2: also want to protect ourselves yep, And we want to

559
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,120
Speaker 2: make we want to not be the reason that we

560
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 2: feel this way. Yes, generally, as humans, we generally we

561
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 2: don't want to be the reason that things don't feel nice.

562
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 2: We would much prefer it if it was everything else. Yes,

563
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 2: it was the reason. What's the relationship between what we

564
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 2: think about a situation and what we feel about a situation.

565
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's really complex, actually, and there's quite a lot

566
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,800
Speaker 1: of conjecture, like in the empirical literature around what comes first,

567
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,719
Speaker 1: where feelings originate, whether they're originating in the body or

568
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: they're constructed in the brain, and how thoughts are related.

569
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:17,200
Speaker 1: And I'm just going to like probably sit on the

570
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 1: fence and say that in some ways they're happening all

571
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: at the same time. We could say, if we were

572
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: to look at the production of emotion, that it's sensations

573
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,600
Speaker 1: in the body that are then interpreted by the brain,

574
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: and then emotions are constructed from that. And that will

575
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: be based also upon, for example, the context you're in

576
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: and also your history of experiences with similar contexts. So

577
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 1: for example, I think I give an example in the

578
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 1: book about sitting an exam, So here I am about

579
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: to sit an exam of feeling really anxious, but that

580
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 1: anxiety is produced by a learning history with previous contexts

581
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: where it tells me that I should feel anxious. It's

582
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: also based upon my temperament, and my biology will also

583
00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: be based upon what I can see here so other

584
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 1: people being anxious, and it's also based upon like the

585
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: thoughts I have about myself. And then we get all

586
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: these sensations in the body and they tell us we

587
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: should be feeling like something's off here. It's a complex

588
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: thing to kind of make sense of, but for me,

589
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: the like the body is so important. It is so

590
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: important in understanding how we work with this this feeling.

591
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: And I think, like to come back to your to

592
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: your kind of question there around we want to make

593
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 1: it someone else's fault, or we want to kind of

594
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 1: externalize responsibility. It actually moves us away from the body.

595
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: But if we can come into the body and stay

596
00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: with what it's telling us, we get access to a

597
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 1: lot more information.

598
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,479
Speaker 2: When you're describing that situation about seeing the exam, we

599
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 2: may may want to make our discomfort as something else's,

600
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 2: you know, reason for being there, The reason for the

601
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 2: reason that I feel this comfort is because of something

602
00:30:57,600 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 2: else that is not me. Sometimes what that really does

603
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 2: is like now we have no control over if we

604
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 2: are handing over how we feel to the world. Yes,

605
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 2: what part of this scenario you just described do we

606
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 2: have control over it? And how can we therefore, you know,

607
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 2: intervene perhaps, and we still have the exam. It's still

608
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 2: a high pressure situation. What can we do in that

609
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 2: moment and what can we recognize about the way that

610
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 2: our brains and emotions work to change the way things feel.

611
00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good question. I think you know too.

612
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 1: So I mean, like I think the thing is, I

613
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: really want to make be clear that there isn't like

614
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: a five step process, right, There isn't like a silver

615
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: bullet to this experience. So for me, it would be

616
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 1: something akin to, first of all, again like I'm noticing,

617
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,760
Speaker 1: here is my heart beating, I'm noticing I'm feeling anxious.

618
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: And then you know, very commonly in practice for examples,

619
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: start to bring in some self compassion work and actually

620
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: coming really coming into the body and to notice how

621
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 1: this is being felt here. And so it might be

622
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: something like placing my hand on my heart and acknowledging, M,

623
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: you're really worried and this is really hard. I'm here

624
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 1: for you in this. What is this information telling you?

625
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: What do we need to attend to here? So again

626
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 1: it's like slowing this down. What is the information to

627
00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: be learned? What's my body telling me? How can I

628
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: step down from that? Like in a critic that's probably

629
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: got a lot to say about that, that wants to

630
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 1: push it away, wants to externalize, how do I just

631
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: pause and slow down? And then it might be okay?

632
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: So what do I need right now? That's the kind

633
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 1: of next question. What is it that I need? Is

634
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 1: it that I need to go and speak to someone?

635
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,520
Speaker 1: Is it that I need to move my body? Is

636
00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 1: it that I need to go and lie down? Like?

637
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: What is what am I actually needing? That won't move

638
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: me into avoidance?

639
00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 2: So when I'm in that moment, I can't control that

640
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 2: I'm under exam conditions, but I can actively and deliberately

641
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 2: try to choose like I can use it. I'm noticing again,

642
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 2: I'm noticing that I have a story that I don't

643
00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 2: do well in these situations the work in my experience

644
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 2: is Okay, does that have to be true all the time?

645
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 2: Can I make another choice about that? Can I see

646
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 2: if this is the time that I do better than that?

647
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 2: And just trying to loosen the bolts on those kind

648
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 2: of the kind of rigid expectations and things we might

649
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 2: have learned from the past, Like the noticing goes beyond.

650
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 2: For me, it goes beyond the body, it goes goes

651
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 2: what way is that one? I'm noticing that, oh because

652
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 2: when I was in grade six, they said, oh okay there,

653
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 2: all right, that's interesting. Does that a plan now? Yeah?

654
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah exactly. And like I even I noticed as

655
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: you were, as you were telling that story that you

656
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: took a breath. It's like, even like can we make

657
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:56,320
Speaker 1: that whole school?

658
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 2: Yeah?

659
00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, like how do we make room for that? So

660
00:33:59,840 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: like even something like using the breath to give a

661
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: space for a start, But then also like yes we

662
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: can kind of we can be curious about what the

663
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 1: mind's saying and what happens if I hold really tightly

664
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: onto this story. See if I hold really tightly onto this,

665
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 1: like this story that I don't do well in exams,

666
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: does it help us if we hold really tightly to

667
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: that story? Usually not? And so can we bring a

668
00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 1: curiosity like, hm, that's interesting, what if you can be here?

669
00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,479
Speaker 1: Little story? Like you can be here? But I'm actually

670
00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,920
Speaker 1: going to see if this could be an alternative.

671
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 2: Today those stories, though they can we can get in

672
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 2: trouble because sometimes those stories can be a part of

673
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 2: our self identity.

674
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:45,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're very, very compelling, and they have in some ways,

675
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,560
Speaker 1: at some points in time probably really served us. So

676
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: those stories tend to be usually very long held stories

677
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:59,440
Speaker 1: formed often in our early childhood experiences, and those stories

678
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 1: at some point, like I said, will have been helpful.

679
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 1: So like the story about being a faalue, for example,

680
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 1: that in childhood may have motivated you to try harder,

681
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: or the story that I'm unlovable again that may have

682
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: motivated or influenced behavior so that you could create connections

683
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: or bonds. But usually by the time it gets to

684
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 1: late adolescents and adulthood is that those stories don't serve

685
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,080
Speaker 1: us anymore. Someone's like you run out of steam. You know,

686
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 1: I can't be motivated from this place of scarcity and

687
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: not enoughness anymore. And me holding so tightly to those

688
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: stories is actually causing me. It's causing me a lot

689
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: of pain.

690
00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,640
Speaker 2: Just a moment away from doctor Emily back in a second,

691
00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:55,920
Speaker 2: and it's everybody's first day understanding that this kind of

692
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:58,799
Speaker 2: stuff can happen at some point for people who might

693
00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 2: have just had that, as you mentioned, a flash of recognition,

694
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 2: a right listening to us right now, what's the step

695
00:36:04,520 --> 00:36:07,719
Speaker 2: that they could take listening to this right now. I

696
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 2: have that about relationships, or I have that about the

697
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 2: way I drive or whatever.

698
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,320
Speaker 1: I mean, there are so many things I think sometimes

699
00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: even something like journaling. I know we speak about journeling

700
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:18,440
Speaker 1: a lot in the mental space, but there's a really

701
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 1: good there's really good.

702
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 2: It's got a bad rap because you can make money

703
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 2: off selling a book that has really nice typesetting and

704
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,799
Speaker 2: a beautiful font and great gesa white like really good.

705
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,879
Speaker 2: It's not a pencil, it's a journaling pencil exactly because

706
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,840
Speaker 2: my thoughts are malleable. I can erase just like my story,

707
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 2: and I can rewrite my scripts and.

708
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 1: Back and wrong, and the number of people that will

709
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:46,520
Speaker 1: buy it and not actually ever yeah, yes, yes, you

710
00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 1: know why people like we buy the book with this intention, right,

711
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: But it's really confronting. To sit down means you have

712
00:36:55,480 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 1: to turn towards everything that's here, and so that's why

713
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: people often don't do it, or they don't even know

714
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:02,240
Speaker 1: where to start.

715
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:10,040
Speaker 2: The size behind it is compellingly, profoundly positive that I

716
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 2: think there's one study which I did a whole show

717
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 2: about it, which I really love that if there's something

718
00:37:14,160 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 2: that's really shat you like something's really bothered you. Even

719
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,919
Speaker 2: if you just it's better if you handwrite it. There's

720
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,919
Speaker 2: something about the brain and the motor control. Your brain

721
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 2: gets a feeling that something's finished. Then even if you

722
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 2: just type it out and never look at it again,

723
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 2: just delete it. Yes, you will report a better outcome

724
00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:35,759
Speaker 2: when you're doing that than someone who never did that.

725
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 2: And that's free.

726
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,000
Speaker 1: Yes it is. It's available to you now if you

727
00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: want to use it.

728
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:42,919
Speaker 2: It doesn't take long set that time running front. Yeah.

729
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's interesting you said something in

730
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 1: the brain about like completing it, and I think what

731
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: actually happens is that, like if you were to go

732
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:55,280
Speaker 1: through a process of journaling, maybe like a really hard experience,

733
00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,759
Speaker 1: is that, like in my experience, it will start off

734
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: the emotion might be quite intense, and then what typically happens,

735
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 1: like if you're writing for a little while, is that

736
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 1: often we kind of end up becoming like our own cheerleader.

737
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: So it ends up kind of coming to a point

738
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: of a problem solving action. So it might start off

739
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: they kind of like moving through the wave of this

740
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: emotion and then we kind of come to okay, so

741
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 1: what am I going to do? About it, and so

742
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 1: usually people will find that by the end of that

743
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: journaling process, even if it's just five minutes, is that

744
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: there's a greater sense of like agency here, I have

745
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 1: some hopefulness. It's not about getting rid of the emotion

746
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 1: at all, but like how do we use that information?

747
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 1: Like how do we use the information from this emotion?

748
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 2: So getting people to want to do this, getting somebody

749
00:38:41,719 --> 00:38:44,320
Speaker 2: who wants to even just to turn towards the discomfort,

750
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 2: even to even recognize experiential avoidance can be incredibly, incredibly difficult.

751
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 2: My mom, she's passed away. She was a doctor. She

752
00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 2: did not means her words. She was dealing with someone

753
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:57,400
Speaker 2: who's I'm fifty one. But if she was dealing with

754
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 2: someone who is maybe my age, who perhaps didn't look

755
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,040
Speaker 2: after themselves very well, they even really need to get

756
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 2: more exercise. To that said, I don't have time for that,

757
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 2: She goes, it's just twenty minutes a day. I don't

758
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 2: have time for that, My mum, No, shit, would say

759
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,560
Speaker 2: something like that. So if you don't have time to

760
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,359
Speaker 2: exercise for twenty minutes a day, do you have time

761
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,600
Speaker 2: to be dead twenty four hours a day? Yeah, what

762
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 2: would you want to tell people about, you know, not

763
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,840
Speaker 2: taking a step towards this. What are they you know,

764
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:23,280
Speaker 2: we're we're.

765
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 1: Losing life like this precious this precious life. I mean

766
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: like again, like I've got to just be so normal

767
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:32,359
Speaker 1: about this. We can't be turning towards it all the time.

768
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 1: It's just not practical. But if there's it's almost like

769
00:39:35,120 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 1: something's calling to you and you're not paying attention. It's

770
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,000
Speaker 1: like you're not showing up to this life. Yeah, like

771
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: you know, oh it makes me, Yeah, it makes me emotional.

772
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 1: I think we get this, We get one life, and

773
00:39:51,120 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: this question is like how am I going to show

774
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,640
Speaker 1: up to it? How are we going to show up

775
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:58,279
Speaker 1: to it? And if we can't make like, if we

776
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: can't turn towards it for even one a day, what

777
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: kind of life is this that we're living like it's

778
00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: it's in the long run and it's not going to

779
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 1: be one that's full of vitality and meaning and richness.

780
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,479
Speaker 1: It might be maybe free from small moments of pain

781
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 1: and discomfort, so you know, really have to kind of

782
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: it takes a lot of courage and bravery thing to

783
00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: turn towards this fact that like I am not where

784
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: I want to be.

785
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 2: Okay, let's say I'm having a degree of discomfort because

786
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,919
Speaker 2: of something that is very clearly external to me. Yeah,

787
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 2: I would want a degree of resilience, and I'd want

788
00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 2: to cultivate a degree of resilience so I could handle that. Yeah, okay,

789
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,160
Speaker 2: where's a line between a degree of resilience and willfully

790
00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 2: ignoring something terrible? Yes, and just I'm just a passenger

791
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,040
Speaker 2: here now, Yeah, this terrible thing is happening, but I'm

792
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 2: not going to do anything about it.

793
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, So the line between willful avoidance and resilience again

794
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:57,399
Speaker 1: like and not sound like a broken record, So yeah,

795
00:40:57,480 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 1: noticing and then also saying, okay, so what am I

796
00:40:59,760 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 1: going to do now? Checking in with my values? So

797
00:41:03,840 --> 00:41:05,920
Speaker 1: what I want to stand for in the face of this, Like,

798
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 1: what I want to stand for in the face of

799
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: someone's really shit behavior. It's kind of this call to

800
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:13,560
Speaker 1: connect with what I value and how I want to be.

801
00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 1: But it might also be like setting a boundary, like, actually,

802
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:20,960
Speaker 1: it is not helpful for me to be around this person,

803
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 1: and that may not be avoidance. That actually may be

804
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 1: a really skillful choice or a wise choice. But again,

805
00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 1: like you have to tune in, like what's happening for

806
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: me when I'm around this person? Is this a relationship

807
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 1: that I want to put more energy into? Is it

808
00:41:34,320 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: one that I actually want to put back from? And

809
00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 1: that that's not avoidance, that's actually really intentional. There's kind

810
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 1: of interesting questions in there around like the notion of

811
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: stoicism in resilience and how that's actually again like different

812
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 1: from avoidance. So stoicism isn't like not being affected, and

813
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: stoicism isn't isn't about not having emotions, but about being

814
00:41:57,000 --> 00:42:00,279
Speaker 1: able to have them and still stand here. Does that

815
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:00,879
Speaker 1: kind of make sense?

816
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yes, yea many an hour sitting in most or

817
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,399
Speaker 2: listening to ex lectures about exactly all that. But yes,

818
00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 2: I have sto to say. Someone who is stoic has

819
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 2: been kind of misconstrued in our lexicon and that oh

820
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 2: they're a statue. No no, no, no, no, you know they

821
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,400
Speaker 2: are willing to be with something that is not great

822
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 2: because they have a value that serves the purpose of No. No, no,

823
00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 2: I'm going to stand and keep here because it's important

824
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:30,880
Speaker 2: for me and all of us that I keep going

825
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 2: in this direction, whether that be in a leadership position

826
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:37,840
Speaker 2: or an your family or whatever. You spoke about values,

827
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 2: It can be very confusing if you've never thought about this,

828
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 2: How do you even Could you offer an example, perhaps

829
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 2: you know, anonymize it as much as you like it.

830
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:48,879
Speaker 2: Can you combine humans if you like? Can you offer

831
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 2: an example of how someone that, through working with them,

832
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 2: found a way to identify the values that they hold themselves.

833
00:42:58,000 --> 00:42:59,799
Speaker 1: There are so many ways in which we can do it.

834
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 1: Some of them are actually very very simple, Like there's

835
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:04,759
Speaker 1: some great online questionnaires that you can do that are

836
00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 1: really identifying what a value like, what your values are.

837
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,600
Speaker 1: I guess it's important to understand what the definition is

838
00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 1: to be honest, because they're confused very much with goals.

839
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 1: So a value is like heading west. We never reach west,

840
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: but it is an ongoing direction. So our values are

841
00:43:21,160 --> 00:43:24,319
Speaker 1: like our compass, and we get a choice to whether

842
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:26,480
Speaker 1: we turn towards them or whether we don't. But a

843
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: goal is like something that you can tick off. I

844
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 1: can definitively say yes, I've done that, and now I'm

845
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: going to make a new goal. But a value we

846
00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:37,640
Speaker 1: never tick off, So like being kind, for example, would

847
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 1: be value being kind. I never ever tick off being kind.

848
00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 1: I might have actions that I can say yes, that

849
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 1: was a kind act, but it is basically like an

850
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: ongoing quality of behavior. So that's kind of how we

851
00:43:50,640 --> 00:43:52,839
Speaker 1: understand the difference between like a value and a goal.

852
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,440
Speaker 1: So yes, you could go online and do like a questionnaire.

853
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: I've got a questionnare in my book as well, where

854
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:01,080
Speaker 1: you can kind of identify what your maybe top five

855
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: values might be like. There are so many ways in

856
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: which we could do this. But another, maybe a kind

857
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: of heartfelt way of thinking about our values is also

858
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: thinking about you know, if you're getting to like a

859
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: milestone event. Maybe I use the example of the eightieth birthday.

860
00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 1: It's a very common practice that we would use in

861
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: acceptance and commitment therapy, and that is to imagine you're

862
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: at your eightieth birthday and you basically invite people to

863
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: talk about you, and what is it that they say?

864
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 1: What is it that you would like them to say

865
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 1: about how you've lived your life? And so we're really

866
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,560
Speaker 1: getting at like the qualities with which you've lived your life,

867
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 1: not what you've achieved, not like how much money you've made,

868
00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: how many degrees you had that stuff. What we're looking

869
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,839
Speaker 1: is like how you lived, and I think that will

870
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 1: highlight though that tends to highlight what's deeply like what

871
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: sits in your heart is most important.

872
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 2: I think I went to a funeral of someone who

873
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:02,799
Speaker 2: not much older than me cancers thing, and what was

874
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:06,239
Speaker 2: said at their funeral. I chating to my friend who

875
00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 2: was next to me, going, I think the goal here

876
00:45:08,920 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 2: is that live a life that means at your funeral

877
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 2: people say that every single one of them just said

878
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 2: they wiped the sun and they were just champions for

879
00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 2: everyone and there was never and they knew this was

880
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 2: coming and they discovered it way too late and they

881
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,120
Speaker 2: couldn't do anything about it. And the way they spoke

882
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:31,760
Speaker 2: to their kids about it, and the way they faced it,

883
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 2: like I don't mean to sound grim, but none of

884
00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 2: us are going to get out of this alive. You

885
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,360
Speaker 2: got to start makings yes.

886
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:45,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is like this idea here of like

887
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: what makes life worth living? You know? And you know

888
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: you ask people who are given a terminal diagnosis, and

889
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 1: I mean this is anecdotal, and I hope it's backed

890
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,680
Speaker 1: up by the research, But I have not met anybody

891
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 1: that is sorrowful about not having made this much money.

892
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:07,879
Speaker 1: The yearning that they have usually is around connection. It's

893
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: usually around connection, and that then like from there we

894
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,440
Speaker 1: can unpack what our values are to so it's like

895
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 1: how do I want to connect with people? Like in

896
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:21,200
Speaker 1: what way? And that's like our internal like our internal

897
00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:21,839
Speaker 1: guiding force.

898
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 2: We don't want to be lying there using the words

899
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 2: should in every sentence. All right, but should can be

900
00:46:29,080 --> 00:46:31,839
Speaker 2: such a trap. Yes, we can get so stuck in

901
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 2: the trap of should. If you're finding yourself saying the

902
00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 2: words should a lot. What are some ways that we

903
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 2: can start to navigate out of that?

904
00:46:39,480 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, not surprisingly noticing at first obviously, but then

905
00:46:44,320 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 1: I think we can really bring to a question like okay,

906
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 1: so what is this telling me? So here's regret to me,

907
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 1: Like that's what it sounds like, I should have done

908
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:57,240
Speaker 1: this or I should be doing that. Okay, so we'll get.

909
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 2: Spike here, you should you should have done this, you

910
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:02,160
Speaker 2: should have done that? Certainly if we're in that sort

911
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 2: of situation, yeah, like that work situation or a personal

912
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 2: situation yeah, with your kids.

913
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:08,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so then the question is like, well, what's

914
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:11,200
Speaker 1: the emotion that's here, particularly if it's like you should

915
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 1: have done that? Like okay, so pausing here? Okay, So

916
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 1: because they haven't done that. What's happening for you? What's

917
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: the emotion this is? Maybe it's anger, So let's come

918
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: to the feeling rather than moving into the thoughts. So

919
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: like stepping down from this internal tape that's like replying

920
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 1: over and over again. Okay, so here's anger. How do

921
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,799
Speaker 1: I deal with his anger? How do I? Like, what's

922
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:35,000
Speaker 1: the wisdom from this feeling here? And how can I

923
00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: actually unpack what this should is meaning? So it requires

924
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 1: this discernment, yes, and that is kind of quite complex,

925
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 1: but you know, being able to step down from that,

926
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: like that inner dialogue and like what's the information here?

927
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 1: Regret is also a really tricky thing to see it with.

928
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I'm fifteen of a bit years sober,

929
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 2: so I've had to regret for me. It's it's not

930
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 2: a very useful thing at all. I like to think

931
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 2: of all those things that would otherwise show up as

932
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:13,839
Speaker 2: regret as really good information, yeah, really really really good

933
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 2: warning labels. Yes, yeah, that will help me make choices

934
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 2: from this moment.

935
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:23,360
Speaker 1: Because if you get really fused with and when I

936
00:48:23,360 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 1: say fuse, like really caught up and stuck in that

937
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 1: regretful or that kind of internal rumination for example, that

938
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 1: also pulls you out of this present moment and it

939
00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,480
Speaker 1: stops you from actually being the person that you want

940
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,400
Speaker 1: to be. We don't want to disregard the information. We

941
00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: don't want to disregard That should kind of really bring

942
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,640
Speaker 1: into questions You're okay, so all right, so I really

943
00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:47,200
Speaker 1: acted out of line of my values there, I'm like,

944
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 1: there's a deep grief for that, Like how do I

945
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:53,400
Speaker 1: really acknowledge that? And then ask, Okay, So, for example,

946
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 1: action steps, do I need to make amends? Like is

947
00:48:56,719 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 1: there an action here that I have to turn towards

948
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: someone and and make amends for this thing that I regret?

949
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:05,279
Speaker 1: Or is there another way in which I can take

950
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,879
Speaker 1: an action that would mean that I'm going to act

951
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 1: differently in the future. So again, like this information here

952
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 1: gives us the choice about how I'm going to show

953
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 1: up now. I may not be able to control what

954
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:18,799
Speaker 1: happened in the past. What I do have control over

955
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 1: is what I do next.

956
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,200
Speaker 2: And for anyone who's curious about any kind of super

957
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,719
Speaker 2: secret sober clubs that I may or may not be

958
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 2: a part of, you mentioned action steps, you basically just

959
00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:36,440
Speaker 2: described everything from four to eleven. Yeah, and it's just

960
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:39,399
Speaker 2: the loop. Yeah, you do, you just keep going around loop.

961
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:43,560
Speaker 2: I wish more people had access to that. When people

962
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,719
Speaker 2: are listening to something like this, they might they might

963
00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 2: be pretty resistant. What would you say to that person?

964
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 1: There are many things, and I guess I would at

965
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: first ask how is this working for you now?

966
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:55,680
Speaker 2: Right? Like?

967
00:49:55,880 --> 00:49:58,839
Speaker 1: How is this working for you right now? Is this

968
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 1: how you want to living? Like? I use this metaphor

969
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,360
Speaker 1: in the book, actually like waiting for the wrong train,

970
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: and that is like you're sitting at the station and

971
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,640
Speaker 1: you've got these two options, of these two trains right,

972
00:50:09,680 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: so they're both going in your direction. One is like

973
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 1: a luxury train. It's got everything you'd ever want, all

974
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 1: the stuff, and the other one is like pretty like

975
00:50:17,239 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 1: run down looking train. And you're like, well, no, I'm

976
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,480
Speaker 1: going to wait for the luxury train. And whilst you're

977
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:26,719
Speaker 1: waiting for the luxury train to arrive, numerous like shabby

978
00:50:26,760 --> 00:50:29,919
Speaker 1: old trains keep passing through. They're off in the direction

979
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 1: that you want to go, but you're still waiting for

980
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: the train. You're waiting for the right conditions, You're waiting

981
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 1: for someone else to do something for you. You're waiting

982
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 1: for someone else to make the changes, But the reality

983
00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 1: is in the waiting, You've lost all this time, You've

984
00:50:43,640 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: lost all these opportunities. It's not the ideal train that

985
00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: you want to get on. It doesn't look like it's

986
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 1: the right time, it doesn't look like it's the right space.

987
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:54,600
Speaker 1: But yet it's still going in the direction that you

988
00:50:54,600 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: would really ideally like to go.

989
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 2: There's carriages, people watching TikTok with a speaker on the

990
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 2: whole time. Exactly at least I'm moving.

991
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:06,319
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, exactly. And so here's this question like how

992
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: is it that I'm living now? How is this serving me?

993
00:51:09,160 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 1: And is this pain that's here is this in service

994
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: of my value direction? Or is it in the opposite direction?

995
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:18,880
Speaker 1: So it's almost like, you know, for me, there's this

996
00:51:19,080 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 1: question that inevitably sits with all of us, and that

997
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: is that what kind of pain do you want to have?

998
00:51:25,880 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 1: Do you want to have the pain that comes with

999
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: turning towards the direction you want to go, because that

1000
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:32,920
Speaker 1: is painful, Right, You're going to have to sit through

1001
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:34,640
Speaker 1: a lot of shit, You're going to have to incund

1002
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: a lot of difficulty to head in the direction that

1003
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:38,279
Speaker 1: you want to go, or you can choose the pain

1004
00:51:38,320 --> 00:51:41,279
Speaker 1: of staying the same, because there will be a pain

1005
00:51:41,280 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 1: of staying the same. So this is like this choice

1006
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:46,000
Speaker 1: that we can and.

1007
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,480
Speaker 2: That's when change happens. Change happens when the pain of

1008
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 2: change becomes less than the pain of staying the same. Yeah,

1009
00:51:53,600 --> 00:51:56,399
Speaker 2: thank you for taking the times. Thanks for writing the book. Oh,

1010
00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:58,480
Speaker 2: thank you for having me grateful you made the effort

1011
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:06,759
Speaker 2: to come be here. I enjoyed that. Thanks and that

1012
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 2: was doctor Emily Musgrove. A new book is called Unstuck,

1013
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 2: a guide defining your way forward to the life you

1014
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:14,839
Speaker 2: want to live. I mean I want that. We all

1015
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,720
Speaker 2: want that, right, And she's got a guide. It's brilliant.

1016
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:19,960
Speaker 2: It's actually a very good book. And she's got some

1017
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:22,399
Speaker 2: fantastic ideas in that book, some of which she covered today,

1018
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,800
Speaker 2: but there's a lot that she didn't talk about today. Unstuck,

1019
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:26,520
Speaker 2: the new book from doctor Ellie Musgrave, would be a

1020
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 2: great companion to sew What Now What available? You can

1021
00:52:30,719 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 2: free order it right now. There's a link in the

1022
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 2: show notes. Get your story clop tickets there as well

1023
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 2: story cluplive dot com. Thanks for being a part of

1024
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:45,440
Speaker 2: the show. See it back here Monday,