Speaker 1: O good a team. It's Craig andw Harper, It's young
Speaker 1: Bobby over there in the thriving metropolis of well the
Speaker 1: very busy, the very busy and somewhat chaotic us. A Ay,
Speaker 1: we're not going to go into that, but it is
Speaker 1: an interesting place. That is an interesting world that we
Speaker 1: inhabit at the moment. Even Australia is interesting. But let's
Speaker 1: not talk politics or the state of the world because
Speaker 1: we probably get enough of that in the media. Hi, mate,
Speaker 1: how are you?
Speaker 2: Hey? What's going on? Greg?
Speaker 1: Well? Good? You didn't answer me? How are you? How
Speaker 1: are you?
Speaker 2: I'm still alive.
Speaker 1: You're still alive?
Speaker 2: Still alive? So far?
Speaker 1: You're still alive. Hey. We have obviously, we have a
Speaker 1: broad range of listeners to this show, but we probably
Speaker 1: do have a slant towards people who are really about
Speaker 1: high performance, whatever that means to them, people who are
Speaker 1: really keen to prioritize their physical, mental, and emotional health
Speaker 1: and wellbeing and their outcomes and their performance in life
Speaker 1: and work and relationships and all of the things. And
Speaker 1: I was thinking earlier, I was thinking, what are Bobby
Speaker 1: and I are going to talk about? And I thought, like,
Speaker 1: my life has been a little bit chaotic lately, and
Speaker 1: I tend not to. And I'm not going to open
Speaker 1: it too wide because I don't want to be boring
Speaker 1: and I don't want to be self indulgent. But I coach.
Speaker 1: I was going to say I coach everyone. That is
Speaker 1: not true. But most of the conversations that I had
Speaker 1: with people that are not incidental, apart from friendship stuff,
Speaker 1: but most of them are a form of coaching. Even
Speaker 1: when someone sits down with me incidentally at the cafe,
Speaker 1: usually they want to ask me something or they want
Speaker 1: feedback on something, which I totally don't mind because I
Speaker 1: kind of think that's my calling, if there's such a thing.
Speaker 1: But I thought, I thought, what if I ask Bobby
Speaker 1: to coach me for I don't know, fifteen twenty twenty
Speaker 1: five thirty minutes today and just see where we go.
Speaker 1: Because I'm not very used to being coached, but I
Speaker 1: definitely could do with some coaching and some insight other
Speaker 1: than my own. And I asked you quickly before we
Speaker 1: went live, so i'll ask you again. You okay with that? Yeah?
Speaker 2: Okay with that?
Speaker 1: If you're okay with that? Yeah, So let's a couple
Speaker 1: of things before we jump in and I open that door.
Speaker 1: But so if you're doing a coaching session with somebody
Speaker 1: like me, and let's say I booked a session with
Speaker 1: you tomorrow, but we had a five minute chat today,
Speaker 1: would you kind of just come in as fresh as
Speaker 1: you can be, with a kind of a blank slate mind,
Speaker 1: or would you have some kind of intention or process
Speaker 1: in mind? What is your like before you do that
Speaker 1: with someone, because you really count too much prep because
Speaker 1: you don't really know what's coming right.
Speaker 2: It depends. So sometimes if you are a coach and
Speaker 2: someone has been sent to you right by an organization
Speaker 2: or let's say by their boss, and they haven't they
Speaker 2: have an incentive around solving for a particular area, there
Speaker 2: probably would be a little bit of prep. Or let's
Speaker 2: say they're coming to you for health reasons, you might
Speaker 2: do You might have an intake or an initial session.
Speaker 2: You might take a look at what their what their
Speaker 2: vision statement is. And a vision statement, it's not it's
Speaker 2: not as esoteric as it sounds. All it means is
Speaker 2: really important to you. What does that look like measurably
Speaker 2: in the future behaviorally as well, not what you're thinking
Speaker 2: and where you are and you know it's not like
Speaker 2: I've done that, but what are you doing day to
Speaker 2: day that's very different from where you are now. So
Speaker 2: my review that vision statement and why it's relevant, why
Speaker 2: it's meaningful. So there could be prepped before a session
Speaker 2: or sometimes in ongoing coaching, you don't know and they
Speaker 2: don't know because it's based on what's going on in
Speaker 2: their daily lives over the course of the week or
Speaker 2: the last time they happen to speak to you. I
Speaker 2: try to show up to my coaching sessions as naked
Speaker 2: as possible, not me not wearing anything. I tend to
Speaker 2: be fully dressed most of the time. But I mean
Speaker 2: not showing up with an agenda, not showing up with
Speaker 2: the pre supposition, not showing up where, oh I'd really
Speaker 2: like to take this coaching session here, just being completely
Speaker 2: open to where the conversation needs to go.
Speaker 3: Not necessarily following someone, you know, where their mind is
Speaker 3: leading them, but not really directing them either, kind of guiding,
Speaker 3: you know, kind of like.
Speaker 2: Listening, seeing what's there, seeing what it means to the person,
Speaker 2: saying okay, well what are we curious about, you know,
Speaker 2: and kind of helping them tap into their own inner resources.
Speaker 2: Perspectives and kind of examine and explore possible ways forward
Speaker 2: and then see what it'll be ready to commit to
Speaker 2: that day. So it really does depend on the situation.
Speaker 2: The short answer is, unless there's a specific reason or
Speaker 2: something I have to prepare for based on what happened
Speaker 2: last session that they want to carry over, I try
Speaker 2: to just show up empty.
Speaker 1: Yeah right, right, all right, So let's dig in to me,
Speaker 1: which I never do, and I'm going to tell you
Speaker 1: right now in this moment, just as I said that,
Speaker 1: I felt really uncomfortable because I'm thinking one does anyone
Speaker 1: and want to hear this too? Is this fucking self
Speaker 1: indulgent bullshit? But anyway, let's put all that aside. I
Speaker 1: want to talk to you firstly about trying to manage
Speaker 1: moving forward. For me, I have just like I don't
Speaker 1: feel overwhelmed in the way that a lot of people
Speaker 1: feel it, but there's not a lot of like from
Speaker 1: the outside looking in, everyone would think I was pretty calm,
Speaker 1: because I am that, and it's not that there's massive
Speaker 1: underlying stress, but just trying to figure out. So at
Speaker 1: the moment, I've written a little list, so I'm probably
Speaker 1: in the last which it seems to be a saga.
Speaker 1: But the last four to eight weeks of my PhD,
Speaker 1: I'm submitting papers, I'm writing my thesis. All the work
Speaker 1: in Inverted Commas is done, but it's very cognitively demanding
Speaker 1: and also emotionally and physically demanding. And then there's the podcast,
Speaker 1: which you know where I had a few issues this week,
Speaker 1: so I couldn't do five, but typically it's five, sometimes more.
Speaker 1: Then there's training, and then there's trying to look after
Speaker 1: my body in the other ways, and then there's my
Speaker 1: mum and dad, which is going nuts at the minute.
Speaker 1: And then there's just trying to have a life and
Speaker 1: some balance. And I feel sometimes I get a bit
Speaker 1: ah like, almost like at that threshold where I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm going to fucking burst. I'm going to burst,
Speaker 1: Like I just have This is.
Speaker 2: A overwhelming for you. You have a lot of things demanding
Speaker 2: a lot from you emotionally, physically, mentally, and they're all important.
Speaker 2: And some of those important things aren't about things at all,
Speaker 2: they're about people you deeply love.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I struggle with because my priority, you know,
Speaker 1: perhaps not well, like my priority is obviously my parents.
Speaker 1: But there's only so much I can do, so then
Speaker 1: I feel guilt attached to that. I don't know if
Speaker 1: we're going to get anywhere today with me, but let's hope, right,
Speaker 1: And this is me just being this is what I'm
Speaker 1: even embarrassed to say some of these things, but I
Speaker 1: want to say them anyway. So then I feel guilt
Speaker 1: around I can't fix everything, but I'm like I'm the fixer,
Speaker 1: which I know is probably egotistical and bullshit, right. And
Speaker 1: then I my mum and I have a really easy
Speaker 1: close relationship my dad, who's a good human, but we're
Speaker 1: probably alike and so it's not always easy or comfortable.
Speaker 1: And then me trying to be compassionate in the moment
Speaker 1: all the time when I want to be practical, I
Speaker 1: want to go, well, here's the problem, dad, let's do
Speaker 1: this and that and if you know that kind of
Speaker 1: navigating that balance between how do I be loving in
Speaker 1: the moment, compassionate, awhere, understanding, and also how do I
Speaker 1: get shit done? How do I practically help them? And
Speaker 1: I feel like sometimes my leaning towards just solving problems
Speaker 1: isn't actually solving problems.
Speaker 2: So that this is so broad and there's so many
Speaker 2: layers to it, and on top of the overwhelm, you're
Speaker 2: already feeling there's a lot of guilt because there's a
Speaker 2: bit of helplessness there and you're not sure if you
Speaker 2: can meet every demand that's being pleased on you, or
Speaker 2: even how to go about that.
Speaker 1: Yes, and sometimes because I've never done this before, like
Speaker 1: as in this space i'm in with my folks, I've
Speaker 1: never been It's not like I can say, well, last
Speaker 1: time my parents were old and sick, I did this,
Speaker 1: you know, So I have no kind of context other
Speaker 1: than through other people sharing their stories, which is great,
Speaker 1: And so you know, there's a level of uncertainty as well,
Speaker 1: which is part of the human experience, I know. But
Speaker 1: you know, making big, life affecting decisions and trying to
Speaker 1: trying to give you know, people who are cognitively not
Speaker 1: one hundred percent like they once were, but trying to
Speaker 1: be one hundred percent respectful while helping them on a
Speaker 1: practical level. I just sometimes I just fucking don't off
Speaker 1: I'm doing the right thing.
Speaker 2: It's a lot of pressure in a situation where it's
Speaker 2: impossible to have clear answers. Let's go back to something
Speaker 2: you had said, Yeah, that your identity and what people
Speaker 2: know you for and lean on you for is you
Speaker 2: are the person who fixes it and you don't have effects. Yeah,
Speaker 2: talk more about that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you make me cry, this is going to
Speaker 1: be We're definitely not sharing now. I think part of
Speaker 1: that is probably ego, because I guess I like that.
Speaker 1: I guess that makes me feel good. Being vulnerable like
Speaker 1: right now is fucking uncomfortable. Although I do tell people
Speaker 1: on a regular basis how shit I am at a
Speaker 1: lot of things. But yeah, I guess that just being
Speaker 1: in that space where I'm fine with not knowing, but
Speaker 1: when my not knowing might impact other people's I don't
Speaker 1: know what you originally asked me, but when my not
Speaker 1: knowing or my lack of certainty, or my lack of
Speaker 1: perhaps direction is going to impact my mum and dad,
Speaker 1: you know, I would rather fuck up my own life,
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? And because and this
Speaker 1: is not self pity, but this is practicality. I'm the
Speaker 1: only child. It's not like I can ask my brothers
Speaker 1: and sisters. It's not like I've got a wife or kids.
Speaker 1: It's not like there's grandkids. And while I do have
Speaker 1: amazing support and I've got some surrogate sisters up in
Speaker 1: the bush. Mom and Dad live here brilliant. Yes, sometimes
Speaker 1: I wish I had a fucking sister, or a two sisters,
Speaker 1: or I don't know why I don't wish for a brother.
Speaker 1: I think sisters would be better in this guise.
Speaker 2: But you know, there's well probably a fair point there.
Speaker 2: So you're feeling all of this pressure and it's coming
Speaker 2: from a lot of different sources. But part of what's
Speaker 2: contributing to all the stress you have is not only
Speaker 2: your identity is someone who fixes, someone who helps others,
Speaker 2: who has answers, but it also protects you from as
Speaker 2: you were talking about, being really vulnerable. Yeah, it is
Speaker 2: not easy for you, and you don't seem to be
Speaker 2: keen on it. And now you're in a situation where
Speaker 2: everything is on you. You're an only child and you
Speaker 2: don't have a fix. But what was the have effects
Speaker 2: because you're the person to fixes things, and that's also
Speaker 2: that's also your emotional shield. So you're wondering, Okay, where
Speaker 2: does this leave me? If I feel like I don't
Speaker 2: really quite know what I'm doing right now?
Speaker 1: M m m yeah, I sometimes, yeah, I will, I
Speaker 1: will go over one thing, one Ron and Mary issue
Speaker 1: for a day in my head, that's like I'd go
Speaker 1: about my day. I'll do the things that but when
Speaker 1: I'm not focused on what, I'm not focused on on
Speaker 1: my work, my my podcast, my UNI whatever, that's where
Speaker 1: my mind is at. And and as you know, when
Speaker 1: you think about something too much, the anxiety or the
Speaker 1: rumination goes from a one to a two, to a
Speaker 1: five to a fucking twelve. And then I've got to
Speaker 1: rein myself in. And then it's funny because I was
Speaker 1: so we're recording this twelveth dirty Melbourne time, and at
Speaker 1: eleven o'clock I had I had a coaching session with
Speaker 1: a corporate client who's got a very high level, powerful,
Speaker 1: responsible position, and at five minutes to eleven start at eleven,
Speaker 1: I just did not I'm like, I felt unworthy to
Speaker 1: be coaching this person. I felt like all of these
Speaker 1: things that I feel and then trying to but I
Speaker 1: know that he is not aware of that, and I
Speaker 1: know I have a track record. I know I can
Speaker 1: coach people. I know I can put my shit on
Speaker 1: hold and I can just be what I need to
Speaker 1: be for that hour. It turns out hour and a quarter, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I think I've probably been putting things on an
Speaker 1: emotional and or psychological shelf on the I'll get to
Speaker 1: that eventually, you know, just putting them on a little shelf.
Speaker 1: I'll come back to that. I don't have not that
Speaker 1: I'm going to have a breakdown, but it's almost like
Speaker 1: that I'll have a breakdown in June because I'm busy
Speaker 1: now a little bit of that.
Speaker 2: You've been pushing this down, pushing this down, and now
Speaker 2: it's becoming harder and harder to push that down. And
Speaker 2: the vulnerability that you avoid is something that you were
Speaker 2: swimming in. Right now you're feeling extremely vulnerable. Just what
Speaker 2: I'm observing is you have all of these things. You've
Speaker 2: got the podcast, you've got the PhD. You know, you've
Speaker 2: got the speaking, the coaching. But underneath all.
Speaker 1: Of it, yes, Ron and Mary, yes, mad Yeah.
Speaker 2: That is the most present and consistent thing for you
Speaker 2: that's bleeding into every aspect of your life.
Speaker 1: Yes. Yes, And I guess I don't like I try
Speaker 1: to figure out what is a good sum Yeah, and
Speaker 1: what do I Why should my tension be? Should I
Speaker 1: should I stop everything else and move in there? Should I?
Speaker 1: Should I? Should I leave my situation and go to
Speaker 1: their situation and press the start button in June again,
Speaker 1: or then you know, Yeah, there's a lot I get.
Speaker 2: Really, these are really important questions and they're not easy questions.
Speaker 2: But let's let's go back to one of these questions.
Speaker 2: If we can sure, what is a good son? What
Speaker 2: do you think a good sign is?
Speaker 1: Well, I think from the outside looking in, people would
Speaker 1: think I'm a good son because I'm practically uh good
Speaker 1: to that, Like, I don't know, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: guess I'm a good son, but I understand that. But
Speaker 1: the question what do I think a good son is?
Speaker 2: Do you think objectively a good sign.
Speaker 1: Is well, yeah, I guess for me, I would just
Speaker 1: say someone like I think a good son or daughter
Speaker 1: for that matter, is someone who at like in these
Speaker 1: situations that I'm in, prioritizes them over me, which I
Speaker 1: try to do. But also I guess someone who understands
Speaker 1: and cares for their parents' needs depending on what state
Speaker 1: of the journey at. But let's assume my kind of
Speaker 1: stage where I'm at. I'm sixty ish and my parents
Speaker 1: are eighty six, right, Yeah, I think to be able
Speaker 1: to meet their needs to appoint but then also get
Speaker 1: out of the way a little bit, because you know
Speaker 1: they can. You know they're still living independently, although that's
Speaker 1: not very easy at the minute. Yeah, and.
Speaker 2: All of the things that you just said. Our scale
Speaker 2: from one to ten, where ten is you are aligned
Speaker 2: completely with your highest definition of a good sign. One
Speaker 2: you're a terrible sign.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Where do you objectively feel you are?
Speaker 1: Well? I can't objective because it's subjective, isn't it. But
Speaker 1: I think I'm as objective so they can be about me.
Speaker 1: I don't think I think I'm a seven. I think
Speaker 1: I'm at six. Sometimes it's like part of this is
Speaker 1: coming out, this is probably need to know this, and
Speaker 1: I can't expand on this. I don't ask. But I
Speaker 1: had a moment with my dad last night. I loved
Speaker 1: my dad, but I just had a moment, right, and Yeah,
Speaker 1: out of respect for my dad, I can't say what happened,
Speaker 1: but let's just say we didn't have the the most
Speaker 1: glorious interaction. And part of me thinks I'm right. In
Speaker 1: fact that I would almost say I know I'm right,
Speaker 1: but that's arrogant. But I believe I'm right. But then
Speaker 1: part of me also goes so what you don't have
Speaker 1: to be fucking right, And it's just this intersection of
Speaker 1: you know, how do I deal with how do I
Speaker 1: practically deal with people who aren't what they once were
Speaker 1: cognitively and emotionally, and everything's when you're eighty six my
Speaker 1: parents anyway, everything's a bit scary. So we don't need
Speaker 1: fucking Steve the problem solver. We're just marching in there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes I am not what they need
Speaker 1: and I'm not the best me with them. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to be the best me, in fact, killing myself to
Speaker 1: be the best me for them. But I feel like
Speaker 1: sometimes I maybe even exacerbate issues.
Speaker 2: So you're disappointed in how certain exchanges play out.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, you.
Speaker 2: Know you said something earlier about sometimes it's not about
Speaker 2: the fix. Yeah, it's not about having the answers, even
Speaker 2: though that's a place that you out of care, maybe
Speaker 2: maybe a little bit of fear that you're feeling right
Speaker 2: now in this situation gravitated. But if that's not the answer,
Speaker 2: what's the other part of that equation? What is that answer?
Speaker 1: What is the answer to or what is the anacdote
Speaker 1: to what I think I'm doing?
Speaker 2: Yes, sometimes sometimes it's not about the fix, Yeah, about
Speaker 2: something else. What is that something else?
Speaker 1: I think I'm scared of. If I don't have this
Speaker 1: conversation that I think need needs to be had, something
Speaker 1: bad will happen that I could perhaps prevent or impact positively,
Speaker 1: like I think, And you know, obviously my intention is good,
Speaker 1: like I'm I'm ten out of ten about my own intentions,
Speaker 1: Like I know that my intentions are good. I know
Speaker 1: that I love them. I just don't know that my
Speaker 1: version is optimal. And I worry that if I don't
Speaker 1: address this thing, whatever the thing is, because you know,
Speaker 1: in all relationships there's a million things. But if somebody
Speaker 1: doesn't bring it up, like mom and Dad won't bring
Speaker 1: it up, so I need to bring it up. Then
Speaker 1: when I bring it up, it often doesn't create a
Speaker 1: good outcome, And then I go, oh, great, I just
Speaker 1: created stress in the family. And I walk away sometimes
Speaker 1: and the thing hasn't been fixed or addressed or resolved,
Speaker 1: and I just upset two people.
Speaker 2: So you know intuitively at some level that what your
Speaker 2: parents need from you might be different than a solution
Speaker 2: or a quote quote unquote fix, But you are scared
Speaker 2: shitless to move away from the fix because you are
Speaker 2: very frightened about the situation that your parents are in
Speaker 2: the emotional impact it's going to have on you, and
Speaker 2: if something terrible happens, your fear is that you'll feel
Speaker 2: responsible because you should have done something more tangible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very insightful. That is true. So I think
Speaker 1: in the micro of the moment, like in the moment,
Speaker 1: in the real you know, this is real time. I'm like,
Speaker 1: I'm all about like I'm trying to be and I
Speaker 1: think if people saw me doing my thing, they would go,
Speaker 1: you're too hard on yourself. But I actually think I
Speaker 1: just go about it the wrong way sometimes, and I'm
Speaker 1: concerned with the macro of their life, the next however many,
Speaker 1: however long the rest of their life is right, I'm
Speaker 1: concerned for them about that. So I want to be practical,
Speaker 1: But in the moment being practical for them where they're
Speaker 1: at mentally and emotionally, it doesn't seem to be the thing,
Speaker 1: you know, But then I don't want to. I don't
Speaker 1: want to not talk about things that I think are
Speaker 1: really going to be a problem for them. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: I don't know for me.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about let's talk about what's real for you.
Speaker 2: I understand all of this is very important and you
Speaker 2: need to think about that sure in the time you
Speaker 2: have left with your parents. Yeah, what do you most
Speaker 2: want in the relationship with them right now?
Speaker 1: What I most want, which is not so much our relationship,
Speaker 1: but I want them to feel safe and two not
Speaker 1: be in any well this is impossible, but as much
Speaker 1: as possible, not in any kind of pain. And I
Speaker 1: you know my mum is if anyone hears this and
Speaker 1: knows my mum or dad, please don't talk to them
Speaker 1: about this. But you know, there's just a huge amount
Speaker 1: of worry. My mum worries about everything, and I want it.
Speaker 1: I can't, but I as best I can. I try
Speaker 1: to alleviate all of that, which I can't do it,
Speaker 1: but you know, sometimes I can make a small impact
Speaker 1: and lift that load a little bit. But you know,
Speaker 1: my you know, if somebody said to me, give us
Speaker 1: all everything you own, if God came down and went,
Speaker 1: I need all your stuff, everything you own, and I'll
Speaker 1: give your parents one amazing year, I'm like, where do
Speaker 1: I sign? Like zero seconds deliberation, where do I sign you?
Speaker 2: You care enormously obviously about your parents and you don't
Speaker 2: want them to suffer. What are we not talking about here?
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what you're asking, but I'm not talking
Speaker 1: about me or my feelings.
Speaker 2: Yeah, here's what I'm asking. Yeah, we're talking about what
Speaker 2: you want in the relationship, and you're talking about the
Speaker 2: things that you don't want your parents to go through,
Speaker 2: right as their son and their parents.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what are.
Speaker 2: You emotionally leading in this situation? From them?
Speaker 1: Okay? One, I'm not sure, but I'll circle back to that.
Speaker 1: But this might sound I don't know how it sounds.
Speaker 1: But I do not care about my feelings or my
Speaker 1: emotions in this Like I don't And people might go, oh,
Speaker 1: that's bullshit. I don't. I do not care about like.
Speaker 1: Do I feel for them and love them? Yes? But
Speaker 1: do I care how this hacks? Well, I guess I
Speaker 1: do at a level, but it's not front of mind.
Speaker 1: I don't think how am I going to manage me
Speaker 1: through this? I don't think what's the best for me
Speaker 1: because it's not relevant in that. And I think I
Speaker 1: have however long I have left, let's hope it's a while. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I don't think about that much. I actually don't know.
Speaker 2: How you feel about what you need from this relationship. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's not front of mine.
Speaker 1: No, I don't really need anything from them, No, I don't.
Speaker 1: I mean other than you know, you know, there are
Speaker 1: things over time that you you know, my childhood was different.
Speaker 1: I guess, like everybody's childhood is different. But you know,
Speaker 1: there's a few things. I won't say, nothing terrible, by
Speaker 1: the way. Everyone there wasn't a horrible violent there was
Speaker 1: none of that. It was just it was a different
Speaker 1: childhood too, you know. And I know that because I
Speaker 1: would go to my friend's houses and there was a
Speaker 1: real lot of similarity and overlap between how other families
Speaker 1: worked and our family worked. You know. So growing up
Speaker 1: in my family, which is three me and two adults,
Speaker 1: it often felt like I was hanging out with two
Speaker 1: parents or two adults who were pretty cool, but we
Speaker 1: all got on real well. It's like I was a
Speaker 1: nephew staying in this house with two people who were
Speaker 1: quite fond of me. But it was it was never a.
Speaker 2: Yeah it was.
Speaker 1: It was definitely not a bad childhood by any means,
Speaker 1: and my parents were not bad parents on any level.
Speaker 1: And I think about shut me off after this, But
Speaker 1: like my dad was one of six boys growing up.
Speaker 1: He was born in the first year of the Second
Speaker 1: World War. I grew up in the Depression. And I
Speaker 1: can't say too much, but let's just say that his
Speaker 1: child good was My childhood was Hollywood compared to his, right,
Speaker 1: So I keep that in mind. And my mom's mom
Speaker 1: died giving birth to her, so she didn't have a mother,
Speaker 1: and she was one of six kids, which was amid
Speaker 1: a mix of biological siblings and you know, half brothers
Speaker 1: and sisters, and so her childhood was really really difficult.
Speaker 1: Also born at the same time. And so when I look,
Speaker 1: I try to look at everything through their lens, and
Speaker 1: what I come back to is, shut the fuck up, Craig.
Speaker 1: Shut the fuck up. You were you lived in a
Speaker 1: fucking Disney movie compared to your mom and dad. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel at a lot.
Speaker 2: Of admiration and respect and gratitude for how hord it
Speaker 2: was for them, and in turn, relatively speaking, how great
Speaker 2: of a job they did with you.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I try to look through with every with
Speaker 1: my no, sorry, go on.
Speaker 2: Let me ask you this first. What was the best
Speaker 2: aspect of your relationship with your parents growing up?
Speaker 1: Like, I just think we got on really well, like
Speaker 1: I would not want There's a few things I could
Speaker 1: say which would shine a light on stuff, but I
Speaker 1: don't really want to because I'm just terrified that it
Speaker 1: would get to mum and dad. But yeah, no, I
Speaker 1: did not have an unhappy childhood, I'll say that. And
Speaker 1: I lived with Ron and Mary, and we moved a lot,
Speaker 1: and I went to I think eight schools, and so
Speaker 1: there was a bit of that. But like even growing up,
Speaker 1: I did not call the mum and Dad. I called
Speaker 1: the Mary and Ron like my whole life, from when
Speaker 1: I was four or five, and people used to laugh
Speaker 1: and I used to not even know what they were
Speaker 1: laughing at because I would call mom Mary and I
Speaker 1: would call Dad Ron. And yeah, it was a very
Speaker 1: like when you when you're in the middle of something
Speaker 1: and you're four or five or ten or fifteen, and
Speaker 1: that's all you've known. Well, that's normal. But as I
Speaker 1: started to see, a reality is beyond my family, the
Speaker 1: reality of other families, not better or worse, by the way,
Speaker 1: I think my childhood was better than many childhoods, but
Speaker 1: just different. So it was it's probably fair to say
Speaker 1: that while we all got on, well, it wasn't you know,
Speaker 1: some families are hugely huggy, touchy feely. That wasn't the case.
Speaker 1: And I don't think that's you know, there's no judgment
Speaker 1: in that. That's just what.
Speaker 2: Your parents seemed to do the best they could one,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: And they still are. They still are like and that's
Speaker 1: the thing, like.
Speaker 2: I won't stay with you, I must stay with you
Speaker 2: for a second. Yeah. You know you've mentioned in this
Speaker 2: conversation and other conversations that there was not a lot
Speaker 2: of expression of emotion growing up, and you brought up
Speaker 2: that you called them by their first names, you didn't
Speaker 2: call them moment dad, Like, why why is that coming
Speaker 2: up now?
Speaker 1: Well, I was just trying to explain what it was like,
Speaker 1: like the dynamics of my childhood. It wasn't It was different.
Speaker 2: And you know you talk about like when you're going
Speaker 2: through something, that's just the way things are, right, you know,
Speaker 2: you're in something like you know, fish discover water last.
Speaker 2: But now you know, as a grown up looking back,
Speaker 2: what are your feelings on that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I always I always assume I tend to default
Speaker 1: to Okay, there's a problem. It's me. I don't think
Speaker 1: like even when we have issues, I go. I blame
Speaker 1: myself because I didn't approach it the right way. I
Speaker 1: didn't communicate the right way, I didn't deal with it
Speaker 1: the right way. And I don't you know, I don't
Speaker 1: think necessarily everything is one hundred percent me, of course,
Speaker 1: but I kind of default to what did I do wrong?
Speaker 1: What could I do better? And there's no self loathing
Speaker 1: in that. I'm just very aware of. I guess so
Speaker 1: many conversations I've had with people, and so many where
Speaker 1: I've been witnessed to you know, a lot of and
Speaker 1: I'm not saying mine was or is, but lots of
Speaker 1: let's say, volatile, lumpy, bumpy family dynamics, right, and just
Speaker 1: realize that very few people ever think they are the problem.
Speaker 1: So like, if they have an issue with their parents,
Speaker 1: their parents are this, And that they have an issue
Speaker 1: with their brother their brothers this, Like nobody ever says,
Speaker 1: me and my brother do not get along, here's this
Speaker 1: or blah blah blah, and I'm the problem. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm a prick, I'm so intolerant.
Speaker 2: How how does this relate to you?
Speaker 1: In now? Well, I just think that I I'm aware
Speaker 1: that if there's an issue and this is across the
Speaker 1: board with everything. Like you know, you and I have
Speaker 1: known each other for a long time. We've had a
Speaker 1: few not we've had no fights, but we've had a
Speaker 1: few differences of opinion or moments in time. And in
Speaker 1: the moment I probably thought you were the problem or
Speaker 1: you were part of the big part of the problem.
Speaker 1: But then in hindsight, I go, uh, probably I was
Speaker 1: the problem or at least a big part of the
Speaker 1: problem because I didn't navigate that the way that it
Speaker 1: needed to be navigated. And so I always without throwing
Speaker 1: myself under the bus, especially being the person who talks
Speaker 1: about being able to be like self aware and situationally aware,
Speaker 1: and I try to, you know, and we spoke about
Speaker 1: objectivity before. Of course I can't be objective, but I
Speaker 1: try to have an awareness bigger than me, and to
Speaker 1: not blame anyone for anything, including myself, but just do
Speaker 1: accept responsibility.
Speaker 2: This conversation keeps going back to responsibility. You know, that
Speaker 2: level of integrity, that self accountability, self awareness. These are
Speaker 2: strengths of yours that continually show up in errors of
Speaker 2: your life, and we keep going back to it here.
Speaker 1: Let's see, where are.
Speaker 2: You really being a good sign given all the things
Speaker 2: that might be outside of your control you might not
Speaker 2: have an answer for, or you may you might be
Speaker 2: a little bit ambivalent around how you're approaching certain things.
Speaker 2: Where do you feel you're being a particularly good son
Speaker 2: to your parents right now? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So I think I am like I am always available.
Speaker 1: So as we record this again, everyone, if you know
Speaker 1: my parents, please don't share this. But we're recording this
Speaker 1: on a Thursday. So Yesterday, Wednesday, I had a full
Speaker 1: day of work. I had podcasts, I had meetings, I
Speaker 1: had papers to write and review or papers to I
Speaker 1: had a full day. I had twelve hours of stuff
Speaker 1: to do. And eleven am I got a phone call, going,
Speaker 1: your mum's at the doctor and they are sending her
Speaker 1: to hospital right now. She's got cardiac issues. She may
Speaker 1: be having heading towards a heart attack or a stroke.
Speaker 1: So this is eleven am. Eleven I'm in my car.
Speaker 1: I'm driving the two hours. There's no I'm not thinking,
Speaker 1: oh geez, I've got a big day. I'm like, fuck
Speaker 1: the day, and I'm off right. So and I canceled
Speaker 1: everything on the way up, and Melissa canceled things, and
Speaker 1: and then I got home last night very late, and
Speaker 1: she's okay, she's okay, she's she's there's a couple of issues,
Speaker 1: but didn't have a stroke, didn't have a heart attack,
Speaker 1: and she's you know, there are issues, but but now
Speaker 1: she's fine. So I am always it doesn't matter how
Speaker 1: inconvenient anything is. I'm always there. On a practical level,
Speaker 1: I will always show up. I guess.
Speaker 2: So where you are being a particularly a good sign
Speaker 2: is you are prioritizing their needs.
Speaker 1: And you will show up definitely.
Speaker 2: You know, if we were having this conversation five years
Speaker 2: from now, and everything with your parents in the moment
Speaker 2: worked out in hindsight the way you felt it should,
Speaker 2: and you felt deeply grateful, Yeah, tell me what happened,
Speaker 2: Tell me what this whole thing looked like.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, I guess you know, I don't want to
Speaker 1: be trite, you know, I guess I did everything that
Speaker 1: I could. I fucked up things, but you know I
Speaker 1: did everything that I could to the best of my ability,
Speaker 1: with the best intentions. And I don't have any regrets
Speaker 1: that would be my ideal about what I did or
Speaker 1: didn't do, or what I could or couldn't have done,
Speaker 1: or Yeah, like I I'm very I'm not good at
Speaker 1: seeing people that I love in pain. I'm fucking terrible
Speaker 1: at it. And I know I can't solve everything, and
Speaker 1: I don't want to solve everything. And I know I'm
Speaker 1: not the fixer. I know that, but I'm really good
Speaker 1: at playing that role, you know. So I guess in
Speaker 1: five years, if I look back and things went well
Speaker 1: or as you know, well as they could, that I'm
Speaker 1: I don't have any guilt or self loathing or regret.
Speaker 1: I guess that would be the ideal for me.
Speaker 2: So as long as you know you everything you could, yes,
Speaker 2: But the fear, yes, The emotion here is right, the
Speaker 2: fact you're not sure how much you can do and
Speaker 2: how much.
Speaker 1: Of this is in your control, Yes, And I guess
Speaker 1: part of it for me. I guess part of it
Speaker 1: for me is letting go as well as doing everything
Speaker 1: that I can. But also, at the same time, you know,
Speaker 1: I like, I'm not trying to keep them alive for
Speaker 1: twenty years, like if they're I don't want to put
Speaker 1: numbers on it, right, but if it's a shortish time
Speaker 1: or a longish time, I want them to be, like
Speaker 1: I said before, as comfortable and as safe as they
Speaker 1: can feel, but also I know that, you know, there
Speaker 1: are things of course, there are a myriad of things
Speaker 1: that I can't control or influence, and so I guess, uh,
Speaker 1: maybe I invest too much energy in that, or maybe
Speaker 1: maybe I I I don't know.
Speaker 2: Too much, wait, hold on too much energy?
Speaker 1: Yeah, like like like I know I can't make everything awesome,
Speaker 1: but I kind of want to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't.
Speaker 1: I can't. I can't make everything awesome. You know.
Speaker 2: So if if you find yourself in a situation where
Speaker 2: things are beyond your control to effects and there's nothing
Speaker 2: you can do, mm hmm, who do you need to be?
Speaker 2: For your parents?
Speaker 1: As cheesy as it sounds, I just want them to
Speaker 1: both feel seen and respected and loved. And I think
Speaker 1: as some people get older, they feel like their life
Speaker 1: and they're all of the things that make up their life,
Speaker 1: you know, from taking care of themselves personally and money,
Speaker 1: and they feel a bit like it's being hijacked by
Speaker 1: you know, all the busy bodies. And there's a real
Speaker 1: reluxed reluctance two to let other people help, sometimes even
Speaker 1: great well meaning people. Yeah. And so sometimes if I
Speaker 1: see them, you know, in a pattern or a behavior
Speaker 1: or a state or whatever, which I think is I
Speaker 1: think right by the way is not serving them. Maybe,
Speaker 1: you know, it depends on what it is, I guess,
Speaker 1: but I think there are times when I just need
Speaker 1: to let that be rather than trying to intervene or
Speaker 1: trying to fix or trying to solve or Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't know. It's I think to also, mister therapist, it's
Speaker 1: like it's a myriad of intersecting things, isn't It's about emotions,
Speaker 1: and it's about it's about practicality, and it's about history,
Speaker 1: and it's about family dynamics, and it's yeah, and also
Speaker 1: I guess, at the risk of what does this sound like,
Speaker 1: I'm not even going to fucking qualify it. I'm just
Speaker 1: going to say it is not wasting energy on things
Speaker 1: that don't move the needle. And I think I probably
Speaker 1: do that, not just with that, but with other things
Speaker 1: as well. And I wouldn't say I'm particularly in general
Speaker 1: a big worrier. You know, I sleep great, I'm very
Speaker 1: grateful for my life. But with Mum and Dad, it's
Speaker 1: probably the one thing that I would say I worry about, where.
Speaker 2: Does your where does your attention need to be? Instead?
Speaker 2: In relationship?
Speaker 1: Dad in relation to them. Yeah, just on the things
Speaker 1: that I guess I can influence, not control, but the
Speaker 1: things that like what's in my control what's not And
Speaker 1: I don't mean controlling them, but the things that I
Speaker 1: can do and the things that I can influence, which
Speaker 1: is going to be a positive for them?
Speaker 2: What are those? What's the number one thing that you
Speaker 2: can control? Right now?
Speaker 1: I guess what I give attention to and then my actions.
Speaker 1: You know, there's probably you.
Speaker 2: Know and what is and what is that that doesn't
Speaker 2: change no matter what happens. What can you give your
Speaker 2: attention to that really matters regardless of what's going on.
Speaker 1: I guess, like I'm trying to constantly figure out what
Speaker 1: they need, not what I think they need. So there's
Speaker 1: a there's a gap, you know, what they actually need
Speaker 1: and what I think because you know, when you are uh,
Speaker 1: when I am so, I am an inherent problem solver analyzer.
Speaker 1: You know, let's break this down, da da da da,
Speaker 1: And in some contexts and situations that's exactly what's needed.
Speaker 1: And sometimes with Mum and dad depending on you know,
Speaker 1: like they just sold their house, right, so there's stuff
Speaker 1: around that where I really need to have conversations with
Speaker 1: people and sometimes uncomfortable conversations with people, all of that, right,
Speaker 1: But that's all just the practical external stuff. But in
Speaker 1: terms of in terms of them, I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: being repetitious. Apologies listeners. I don't know if this is
Speaker 1: worth listening to, by the way, but anyway, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I don't know, mate.
Speaker 2: Well you said, you said that you talked about what
Speaker 2: they need. What do you think they need?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, right right?
Speaker 2: What do they need most right now?
Speaker 1: Uh? Sometimes I don't know. Are you talking about practically
Speaker 1: or perhaps emotionally like all of it? Of all? Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I think the main like what they need is
Speaker 1: they need to know that I care, which they know.
Speaker 1: They need to know that I will be there, you know,
Speaker 1: as fast as humanly possible. Obviously if they live down
Speaker 1: the road, that would be easier, but they don't. And
Speaker 1: I think this is sounds weird, but they need respect,
Speaker 1: you know, it's funny, especially my dad. My dad's very proud.
Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, everyone, I love my dad, but
Speaker 1: you know, sometimes him and I clash, right, and he
Speaker 1: he needs to be heard and respected and yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: and and to feel like what he's saying matters and
Speaker 1: he's still in his mind very much the head of
Speaker 1: the house, which is great, you know, and sometimes I yeah,
Speaker 1: sometimes I probably don't do that.
Speaker 2: Well, it's really hard you have you have a complex
Speaker 2: relationship with dad. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's it's interesting. I mean I am yeah,
Speaker 1: like whenever you go through something new, I mean, this
Speaker 1: is new and and I guess the funny thing is two, Like,
Speaker 1: there's no set way to do this. If you were
Speaker 1: talking to another guy or another girl going through something similar,
Speaker 1: the issues and the challenges and the dynamics and the
Speaker 1: solutions and the problems would be different or a version
Speaker 1: of different, you know. So there is no three.
Speaker 2: There's no right answer on this.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So as we're talking about this at this point in
Speaker 2: the conversation, what if anything is clearer for you or
Speaker 2: are you taking from this?
Speaker 1: I think that I like, I like, I like the
Speaker 1: way you're not solving any problems. I'll answer that, And
Speaker 1: I like the way you're making me think and making
Speaker 1: me or steering me towards a different perspective. But I think,
Speaker 1: I think because I think about the situation and what's
Speaker 1: going on in a certain way, and then you hear
Speaker 1: my version of what's going on. But you're not in
Speaker 1: my version and you're not in the reality of that.
Speaker 1: But that is good for me because you can see
Speaker 1: what I can't see. And I think for me, after this,
Speaker 1: really I will reflect on how I frame everything and
Speaker 1: the way that see. For me, there's a tendency to
Speaker 1: overanalyze my behavior, right, but to reflect on my behavior
Speaker 1: and reflect on even how I think about all of this,
Speaker 1: because I think sometimes there's the problem and then there's
Speaker 1: how I think, or there's not the problem, there's the situation,
Speaker 1: and then there's my thinking about it all. And sometimes
Speaker 1: my thinking about it all is thirty percent of the
Speaker 1: problem or maybe seventy percent of the problem, you know.
Speaker 1: So that's you know, almost that trying to see things
Speaker 1: through a different lens.
Speaker 2: You know, for men, you're going to be intentional about
Speaker 2: stepping back and getting a broader perspective on what different
Speaker 2: people need, what are all the variables, and try to
Speaker 2: move out of you're thinking that you're caught in in
Speaker 2: the moment. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Also for me, I think and like I don't really
Speaker 1: it's probably more than twenty years than a that I've
Speaker 1: lost my shit as in, you know, got real angry
Speaker 1: when people look like, oh my god, get out of
Speaker 1: the way. I'd say it's least twenty years, twenty five
Speaker 1: years maybe, And I didn't, and not that I was
Speaker 1: particularly I was not at all a violent person or
Speaker 1: a particularly angry person. But I do have that capacity
Speaker 1: when I feel like someone that I love or something
Speaker 1: that I love is being mistreated or threatened or exploited
Speaker 1: or where i'm i'm, I can elevate, you know. And
Speaker 1: I just think that there are times when I'm in
Speaker 1: something to do with mom and Dad where my emotions
Speaker 1: are running the show. I'm not you know, I'm not yelling.
Speaker 1: I'm not, but it's like I don't I don't regulate
Speaker 1: my emotions as well as I should, and obviously so
Speaker 1: when my emotions are running the show or running a
Speaker 1: big proportion of the show, you know, or as a
Speaker 1: neuroscientist would say, kind of when my Amigdela hijack's my
Speaker 1: prefrontal cortex, I'm not thinking, I'm not really thinking clearly
Speaker 1: or communicating in a way which is the best way
Speaker 1: to communicate. In this I'm kind of I'm i'm it's
Speaker 1: more about me than them in that moment, although I
Speaker 1: think it's about them, but it's actually about me and
Speaker 1: my frustration.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's that's a lot of self awareness, and
Speaker 2: there's a lot there's a lot of emotion and pain
Speaker 2: that you're a.
Speaker 1: God because we need to we need we need to
Speaker 1: wrap up. But one so love and appreciate you. But
Speaker 1: I think not. But and like if you and I
Speaker 1: know you're not the advice guy, and I know you're
Speaker 1: not the problem solver or the answer giver, but what
Speaker 1: would you as for for this, you know, a moment
Speaker 1: in time that happens to be recorded. What would what
Speaker 1: would your advice be for me? I'm not saying what's
Speaker 1: the answer, I'm not saying what should I do? But hmm,
Speaker 1: what what would you what do you suggest for me?
Speaker 2: Well, just from what I intuitively feel that I'm observing,
Speaker 2: I would I would ask what would be like, what
Speaker 2: are the things that you need to look at a
Speaker 2: little bit more carefully in terms of the emotional dynamic
Speaker 2: of what you're going through, what you are needing. I
Speaker 2: understand it's about your parents, and I understand you might
Speaker 2: not have time or space to even think about that
Speaker 2: because you know you need to just be there for them, Yeah,
Speaker 2: but it would be it might fare a lot better
Speaker 2: for you and for them, Yes, to think about this now,
Speaker 2: what they need from the relationship as your parents, and
Speaker 2: what you need from your parents as their son. Then
Speaker 2: doing it later or wishing you had.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, mate, I appreciate you. Thank you for doing this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's been uncomfortable but also kind of great. So thank
Speaker 1: love you. Thanks mate, Love you too.