WEBVTT - Secrets of a murder detective: Steve Keogh Pt.2 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:04.960 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:08.119 Detective see a side of life the average persons never 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:11.160 exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.080 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:16.280 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.600 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.200 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.480 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.840 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.520 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.680 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.720 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:40.559 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:48.839 Welcome back to part two of my chat. We've retired 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:52.000 Scotland yard detective Steve Kere. If you miss part one, 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:54.680 Steve has given us a good understanding of the processes 0:00:54.680 --> 0:00:58.279 that go into place after his murder investigation team is 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:01.480 called to a deceased talked about what happens at the 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:04.920 crime scene, the importance of the crime scene information management, 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:08.959 notifying the families, and all other aspects of homicide investigation. 0:01:09.600 --> 0:01:12.920 I really like Steve talking about standing still and just 0:01:13.200 --> 0:01:15.880 taking in the crime scene and getting a feel of it. 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:18.759 And that's the thing that you can't teach. It something 0:01:18.800 --> 0:01:21.720 that you learn through years of experience and probably be 0:01:22.040 --> 0:01:26.680 shown by others that came before you. Let's get past 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:29.360 the crime scene. Now where do you guys run your 0:01:29.400 --> 0:01:30.520 investigation from? 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:37.400 So there are different police bases, so we call us. 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:40.520 We don't call ourselves really, but the press tend to 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.000 call the Scotland Dart Detectives. But nobody works out of 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:44.760 Scotland Old anymore. Is shrunk. 0:01:44.920 --> 0:01:50.040 It does sound cool, but yeah, yeah, I wouldn't like 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:51.760 Scotland Yard coming after. 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:55.639 That's shrunk down to a really small building. Budget cuts 0:01:56.200 --> 0:01:59.680 everything got smaller, even the buildings, so we work out 0:01:59.680 --> 0:02:01.720 a different basis. I worked out a place called Lewisham 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:05.040 Lusian Police Station in southeast London and we would have 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:07.320 a section of the police station that was set aside 0:02:07.320 --> 0:02:11.000 for homicide and all that teams would be there. So 0:02:11.800 --> 0:02:14.480 you nominally you work at a police station, but that 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:17.919 you're not connected to the police station in terms of 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:20.280 local policing. It's just the building your workout. 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:23.160 And we refer to them as a strikeforce room or 0:02:23.200 --> 0:02:26.839 an incident room that when things are going well, each 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:29.720 police station has a room allocated that should be under 0:02:29.760 --> 0:02:32.000 lock and seal in case a murder or a serious 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:34.720 investigation comes through, and they've got computers in there and 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.520 it's all right to go and ready to set up. 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:42.200 But I found running homicide investigations, it's crucial to have 0:02:42.240 --> 0:02:46.480 a good functioning strikeforce room or investigation room, a place 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:48.919 where you've got all your team together, a place where 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:52.119 you've got your computers, you've got all your paperwork set up. 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:53.359 Would you agree with that? 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:56.919 Yeah, Well, as is permanent. So we have as the MII. 0:02:57.080 --> 0:02:59.680 So it's the major instant room, and it's where all 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.240 the homes computers are and you have permanent staff there. 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:05.840 They're not police officers, they're civilians whose job it is 0:03:05.919 --> 0:03:08.440 to maintain all the information that goes on to homes. 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:12.000 And yeah, that's central, that's central to it. So and 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:14.800 then you'd have a different office called the squad office 0:03:14.800 --> 0:03:19.720 where the detectives would work out of. And a really 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:23.200 important element is that at some point at the beginning 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:26.120 of a murder, every day as a murder goes on, 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:30.000 maybe not as regular, but everybody comes together. Everybody from 0:03:30.040 --> 0:03:33.919 the typists to all the detectives come together and share 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:35.600 in information, and that's really important. 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:39.720 I learned very early in my career as a homicide detective. 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.520 I could tell and even when I was a senior 0:03:42.640 --> 0:03:46.040 detective running investigation, so I could almost tell the quality 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:48.960 of investigation by the manner in which briefings were done, 0:03:49.080 --> 0:03:52.440 briefings in that incident room, detective's room, squad room. 0:03:52.280 --> 0:03:53.280 Whatever you want to call it. 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:58.160 And I had some people and who I looked up 0:03:58.160 --> 0:04:01.320 to as just great detective and they had an ability 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:04.760 to put all the information in a briefing, so everyone 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:08.280 felt like they were contributing to what's gone on, summarizing 0:04:08.320 --> 0:04:11.560 what we know at this point in time, and explaining 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.800 the lines of inquiry and information and having not a 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:18.039 free for all, like someone was running the briefing, but 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:21.360 inviting everyone to have some form of input. What's your 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:24.680 thoughts on the importance of briefings, because I think they're crucial. 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:27.839 No, one hundred percent. So if you've got twenty five 0:04:27.839 --> 0:04:30.800 detectives all running off in different directions, they need to 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:34.960 know what everybody else is doing and just as importantly, 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:37.640 how what they're doing fits in with everyone else. So 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:41.240 just as example, if you've got someone who's doing the 0:04:41.279 --> 0:04:46.400 CCTV and then you've got if they understand what the witnesses, 0:04:46.440 --> 0:04:49.120 officers the information they're coming back with, what the witnesses 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:52.000 are saying, what they've seen, the description of the suspect, 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:54.160 et cetera. Makes their job much easier. And there may 0:04:54.240 --> 0:04:57.080 be something on the CCTV that wouldn't on its own, 0:04:57.120 --> 0:04:59.640 wouldn't make sense, but when you fit in with everything else. 0:05:00.480 --> 0:05:04.000 I'm a bit of a sci fi geek, and in 0:05:04.080 --> 0:05:07.320 Star Trek they've got at this alien race called the 0:05:07.360 --> 0:05:09.600 Borg and they're like a high mind where everybody knows 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:11.920 what everyone else is thinking. And that's a stage where 0:05:11.920 --> 0:05:13.680 you want to try and reach. You want to be 0:05:13.720 --> 0:05:16.440 able to get to a stage where everybody knows what 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:18.920 everybody else is doing. So that so it all does 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:21.719 fit in, because if you're all pulling off in different directions, 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:23.760 it's going to be much harder to solve the crime. 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:28.320 And the only way, really, you know what cops a 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:30.600 like area if you put something in a document, they 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:33.040 ain't going to read it. So if you've got them 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:34.600 in a room and they're all talking to each other. 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:38.840 They're much more likely to digest what's going on, and 0:05:39.080 --> 0:05:41.920 they crucial and if you don't hold those meetings, you 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:45.920 don't have that cohesion and you make it much more 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:47.920 difficult for yourself to solve the crime. 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:51.280 One hundred percent. I think bringing everyone into that room, 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:53.919 and obviously it was sometimes that people couldn't make it, 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:56.000 but you'd have someone that they're working with that could 0:05:56.000 --> 0:06:00.480 make the briefing, and I would go around the room 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:03.159 like if I was running the briefing. Okay, this is 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:04.960 what we know at this point in time. A lady's 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:08.520 body has been found in Parkland. We've got witnesses, have 0:06:08.560 --> 0:06:11.320 been interviewed, but no one saw what happened post more 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:13.159 than result is of the pears. She's died of a 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:16.640 gunshot wound. This is what we know at this point 0:06:16.680 --> 0:06:19.440 in time. And then I'd go to you, Steve. You 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:22.280 might be coordinating the CCTV footage. What have we got 0:06:22.320 --> 0:06:25.200 from the CCTV footage. There might be another person that's 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:30.520 looking at the canvassing aspects. You've interviewed the person that 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.480 found the body, what information came from that person, And 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:35.800 you're going round the room. So everyone's input in and 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:38.520 we're all on the same page. I do like star Trek, 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:40.960 but I hadn't really thought of homicide investigation in the 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:44.920 form of a ball. But I take on board what 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:48.840 you're saying. But it is all that information. The good 0:06:48.920 --> 0:06:51.520 leaders that I saw, they would encourage everyone to have 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.160 an input. And it could be some new kid that's 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:56.240 just come into the homicide sitting in the back of 0:06:56.240 --> 0:06:59.400 the room and put his hand up nervously and say, hey, boss, 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:02.599 if you consider such and such, invariably it was a 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:04.640 good idea, if it was a good idea, and so 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:09.080 of course I considered that that's not but that input 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:12.360 and the other thing. I think those type of briefings 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:14.680 help everyone feels like they're part of a team and 0:07:14.680 --> 0:07:17.840 everyone feels like they're contributing, because otherwise, if they're kept 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:20.360 in isolation, that's hard to motivate people if they don't 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:21.200 know the bigger picture. 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:23.440 Yeah, I'm saying, if you're a good leader, you have 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:26.080 to create an environment that people feel comfortable to be 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.760 able to speak up and say as you say. Because 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:32.680 everyone when I was talking about that that the the 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:36.000 the analogy of a car, where it's the it's the 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:39.160 dyes that are directing it, and the d s's are 0:07:39.160 --> 0:07:41.760 the pedals, and the dcs are the engine. That car 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:45.760 won't work. If it was just the dill it wouldn't move. 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:48.640 Which a car, it won't move. The ds is will 0:07:48.680 --> 0:07:51.280 push it the pedal it would work. Everything has to 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:56.080 work together, and a murder is not solved by on 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.640 the new, on the on the On these drama dramatizations, 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.520 you see the DC idea run around solving murders that 0:08:01.600 --> 0:08:04.760 they don't solve murders. The team sold the murder. No 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:07.680 one individual detective solves the murder. Even if you come 0:08:07.760 --> 0:08:10.760 up with a really good bit of evidence, it still 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:12.480 has to fit in with everything else, and it still 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:14.800 has to get to a stage where it gets past 0:08:15.200 --> 0:08:17.560 the CPS. It gets it's not going to be ripped 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.520 apart of court, So no one person can solve the murder. 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:23.560 It has to be a team. And I've been in meetings. 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:26.360 One of the most important people to having a meeting 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:29.560 I always thought was were the typists who put all 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:33.240 the information onto the computer because they read every single document. 0:08:34.000 --> 0:08:36.079 I didn't read every single document, and they'll be there 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:38.320 and they'd be, oh, yeah, I remember I typed on 0:08:38.920 --> 0:08:42.040 a message from a member of the public who said 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:44.520 I hadn't seen that, and you know what I mean, 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:46.000 but the fact that you've seen him put it on, 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:51.200 that could be really important. So everybody should feel comfortable 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:53.920 enough to say to put a hand up, like you say, 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:55.960 the new detective or anybody is. 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:59.079 And I'm sure you've had people on your team that 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:03.840 you call the typist. We had that at one stage. 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:06.319 They eliminated that. So police are putting it all on, 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:08.719 which I think is a bad thing. Our skill set 0:09:08.800 --> 0:09:12.080 could be better utilized. But that's that's just the way 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:15.719 we approach it. But some of the analysts I've worked with, 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:18.920 they're the ones of the attention to detail. And I 0:09:18.960 --> 0:09:22.160 swear to god the crime wouldn't be solved without the 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:25.720 analysts that just got the ability to retain this attention 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:28.160 to detail. And I'd be talking and no, that's not 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:31.959 what happened. This is a right, sorry correction. Like attention 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:36.560 to detail, they're crucial to a good homicide investigation team, 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:37.360 I believe. 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:42.760 Yeah. So when I first joined the murder teams, it 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:46.840 was before the our government decided to absolutely rack policing 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:49.200 in the UK. But when I first joined, we had 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:53.080 an embedded intelligence analyst who is not a police officer, civilian, 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:56.120 really really highly trained in how to use different software 0:09:56.200 --> 0:10:00.600 and methods for collecting intelligence information. And one of the 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:05.280 most important roles was a timeline. So if you've got 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:09.400 thousands of bits of information, if you overlay them on 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:13.840 a timeline, suddenly things become more You can see how 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:16.720 different events relate to each other, how to build up 0:10:16.760 --> 0:10:20.240 to a murder happened, looking for an important trigger in 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:23.439 the build up to a murder. There's all different aspects 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:26.640 of a crime that you don't jump out of you 0:10:26.760 --> 0:10:29.040 if you don't lay them in that timeline. And that's 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:33.320 one of the jobs of an intelligence analyst. And they 0:10:33.920 --> 0:10:38.240 were really fundamental, crucial to our investigations. And then when 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.959 the budget cuts came in, they took them off of 0:10:41.000 --> 0:10:44.439 their murder teams and they centralized them, and so you 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:46.520 would have an analyst attached to your saying that it 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:48.560 wasn't the same. They weren't embedded with you, they weren't 0:10:48.600 --> 0:10:51.400 living and breathing the murder like we were, and our 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:55.160 investigations one hundred percent suffered because of that decision. It 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:58.800 all comes down some money, and that really, really, really 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:02.000 pisses me off. Investigating a murder should not be about money, 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:03.800 but sadly that's the world we live in. 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:07.280 Yeah, the problems you're talking about are not this similar, 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:09.080 and I've been out for a couple of years now, 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:12.680 but I know the situation you're talking about where people 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:16.280 above didn't understand the value of I need this analyst 0:11:16.320 --> 0:11:19.040 working with me full time. I need this. I need that. 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:21.240 You're not asking it for the fun of it. You're 0:11:21.240 --> 0:11:24.920 asking it because this is what's needed to solve a murder. 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.839 When we talk lines of inquiry, people often say, as 0:11:28.880 --> 0:11:32.079 a detective, do you have a hunch, And I say, well, 0:11:32.440 --> 0:11:35.640 not a hunch. When you're looking at a line of inquiry, 0:11:35.720 --> 0:11:38.520 a hypothesis or you might throw out this maybe this 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:41.240 person got murdered because he had a gambling habit or 0:11:41.280 --> 0:11:43.880 something along like that line. That's a hypothesis. 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:44.200 It's not. 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:47.760 It's a line of inquiry that needs to be explored. 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:50.120 Do you want to just talk us through your mindset. 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:53.320 We've got you. We've taken you from the crime scene. 0:11:53.840 --> 0:11:57.160 You've done the canvassinge of the crime scene, gathered all 0:11:57.200 --> 0:11:59.520 the information, you've done your briefing, you've set up your 0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:02.760 intint room or strikeforce room. But then you've got to 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:05.040 get to a point. Okay, which direction do I take 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:07.880 this investigation in? What's what's your mind thoughts? So what's 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:11.680 the processes that you'd go through with investigations at that stage? 0:12:11.960 --> 0:12:14.480 Yeah, hypotheses are really important. So if you've got all 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:18.640 these detectives running around investigating stuff, they have to investigate something. 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:22.160 You can't. You can't ask them to go. You can't 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:25.400 say to the CCTV officer, go and get me CCTV. 0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:27.240 You can't say to the phone's officer, go and get 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:30.400 me phone's data. What you need to do is investigate something. 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:33.280 That's where hypotheses come in. So so essentially what you're doing, 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:36.800 you're you're looking at the likely scenarios of how why 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:39.400 this murder would have happened, and you investigate them. So, 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:45.959 if so the person was killed because they because they've 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:48.199 got a rival drugs gang or something along those lines, 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:50.439 because they deal dealing drugs and it could be a 0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:52.640 rival gang, or it could be a robbery or it 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:54.439 could so if you if you come up with a 0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:56.839 likely scenarios, you can then investigate that. So you can 0:12:57.240 --> 0:12:59.080 if it is if he is a drug dealer, Well 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:03.199 who is who else is dealing drugs in the area. 0:13:03.440 --> 0:13:07.160 Have there been any recent robberies on drug dealers? Does it? 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:09.600 Has he had any fallings out? And so what you 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:12.520 need to do you need to investigate a lightly scenario 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:17.040 which will then open up potential evidence. You can't just that. 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:19.160 There has to be a focus to investigation, and that's 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:22.560 where hypotheses come in. And they're not made up. Then 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:25.440 they're not thinking all like fanciful ideas of what could 0:13:25.440 --> 0:13:28.720 have happened. They're very very simple. So imagine a scenario 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.319 where a dead body is found in the woods and 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:33.960 all you know is this person has been killed in 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:37.160 the woods, and you know, we know nothing else about 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:39.840 them or their lifestyle or anything else. All we know 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:41.440 is you got a dead body in the woods. So 0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:43.760 you have to investigate something. So if you set your 0:13:43.800 --> 0:13:47.240 hypotheses as broad as this, that they were killed by 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:49.920 someone they knew, or they were killed by someone they 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.920 didn't know. So if you start off your investigation but 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:55.600 they were killed by someone they knew, you could so 0:13:55.640 --> 0:13:58.160 then you so then you investigate their life. Who is 0:13:58.160 --> 0:14:00.480 in their life? Who have they had any issues? Is 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:03.719 there anybody in their life that's threatened them in the past, 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:05.720 that kind of thing, or they were killed by someone 0:14:05.760 --> 0:14:07.760 they didn't know. If they're killed by someone they didn't know, 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:10.000 then it would be someone in the area. What's been 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:12.040 going on in the area, as there been any robberies, 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.760 any for previous attacks, anyone hanging around. Then as you 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:19.920 get more information, your hypotheses can be more more focused. 0:14:20.440 --> 0:14:24.400 But whatever happens, whatever scenario comes, it will stem from 0:14:24.400 --> 0:14:26.000 one of those two things. They were killed by someone 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:28.080 they know, someone they didn't know. So in the meantime, 0:14:28.120 --> 0:14:30.320 you're not missing anything. You're you're not missing a line 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.160 of inquiry that that you could think, oh, we didn't 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:36.520 do that well, and now it's too late. And then 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:39.600 there's more information comes in. Supposing this person that's there 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:43.200 I don't know is in a volatile relationship with someone, 0:14:43.280 --> 0:14:46.440 then you can you can have a specific hypothesis around that. 0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:49.640 But in the meantime, you've not lost anything. You and 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:53.960 and more information comes in you can develop and change hypotheses. 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:56.960 But they're really important because I say, detectives need to 0:14:56.960 --> 0:15:00.560 be focused, they need to investigate something, and you're giving 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:02.800 them a starting point to investigate. 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:06.360 Okay, I think you explained it very well, Because you've 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.520 got to start somewhere and point them in the direction. 0:15:11.320 --> 0:15:16.520 The confirmation bias can cloud your judgment. Let's speak hypothetically. 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.600 If a woman's body is found in the woods as 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:23.080 you described, and being in a volatile relationship with her 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:28.240 ex partner, confirmation bias can be dangerous if that's all 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.840 you're looking for. That you think, okay, that's my hypothesis. 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:35.200 They're in a domestic situation, they've had a falling out, 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:38.360 he's probably killed her, and you concentrate there. What's the 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:41.480 dangers of confirmation bias in an investigation? 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:45.440 Quite simple. If you're looking over here and the murder's 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:49.000 over there, you'll miss them. And so in that scenario, 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:51.480 you would run a number of hypotheses. One would be 0:15:51.680 --> 0:15:55.680 that the woman was killed by a partner, but simultaneously 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:59.080 investigate that she wasn't. Now on the flip side of 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.640 that, there's a chance is it's not the partner, So you 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:05.080 have to investigate both. And confirmation bias, I think is 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:08.120 the worst enemy of a detective. If you get caught 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:13.440 in that trap, the results from that can be horrendous. 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:15.440 So I always refer to a case we had in 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:18.800 the UK. It was a lady by named Rachel Michel. 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:23.080 She was nineteen years old, she had a young child. 0:16:23.160 --> 0:16:26.200 She was on a place called Wimbledon Common and she 0:16:26.360 --> 0:16:29.040 was brutally murdered in front of her front of a 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:32.280 young child. And the police investigated at the time, this 0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:36.800 was the early nineties, brought in a criminal profiler and 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:40.080 he came up with a profile that essentially was it's 0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:44.760 their local weirdo. And there was a local weirdo that 0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:46.560 happened to be in the park at that time, known 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:49.440 by the name of Colin Stag, and the police went 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:53.840 hard for him. They even introduced a female undercover officers 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:55.320 to try and get him to confess to the murder. 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.440 They went all out. They were absolutely convinced it was 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.160 Colin Stag and it got to the point where they 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:02.960 even charged him with murder. So he was going to 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:04.680 trial and as soon as he got to call the 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:08.000 judge through out and Colin Stagg was acquitted of the murder. 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:11.800 And he did not commit this murder. It wasn't him, 0:17:11.800 --> 0:17:14.760 but they were absolutely convinced, and they didn't they ignored 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.200 that it could have been anyone else. When in actual 0:17:17.200 --> 0:17:19.320 fact it was a man by the name of Robert Napper, 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:23.120 and a number of a year a year or two 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:28.240 later after he killed Rachel, he in almost a ritualistic, 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:33.199 really brutal murder. He killed a young mum and a 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:39.280 young five year old child. And it was only later 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:42.320 on when some DNA came back on the Rachel and 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:46.280 thecal murder they identified Robert Napper. Now I'm not saying 0:17:46.480 --> 0:17:50.320 that the police if they had hadn't an investigated Steak, 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:53.359 that they would have got Napper, but by not looking 0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:54.679 for that, but they were never going to get him. 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:57.440 And the result of that is that a young mum 0:17:57.480 --> 0:18:00.960 and a child brutally brutally murdered when there's a chance, 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:02.440 I'm not saying it would have happened, but there's a 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:04.320 chance if they hadn't have been so caught up in 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:06.560 Stag they might have got to NAPA. And that's the 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:09.520 danger that can happen when you'd convince yourself and what 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:11.840 you end up doing confirmation bias. Essentially, what you're doing 0:18:11.840 --> 0:18:14.040 you've made up your mind and you go and go 0:18:14.160 --> 0:18:17.320 look for information to prove yourself right, rather than look 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.159 for information that points to who the killer is and 0:18:20.200 --> 0:18:22.920 once you get caught up in that trap, as I say, 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:25.639 the consequences can be as dire as thats was what 0:18:25.720 --> 0:18:27.359 happened to someone for and HASMI. 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:31.439 That's a horrendous example, but I can see how it happens. 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:34.720 And that's the pressure of homicide investigation. If you get 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:38.200 it wrong, Yeah, there's consequences. If you get it wrong, 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.080 someone might get away with murder you. I don't think 0:18:41.119 --> 0:18:43.440 there's any fair mind the detective that wants to see 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:45.280 someone put a way that hasn't done the crime. I 0:18:45.280 --> 0:18:48.679 think that anyone with a fair mind would be horrified 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:53.080 by that scenario. Sometimes we'd have someone that really looked 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:55.240 good for it. It might be used to we're thinking, yeah, 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.639 he's good for it, and they would have inquiries trying 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.520 to disprove it before we move forward on it. So, yeah, 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:05.480 it's where the facts take you. And I think that's 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:08.640 an important thing as a dejective that you can't Yeah, 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:11.680 you can have your your theories, I call them case theories. 0:19:11.720 --> 0:19:13.800 This might happen, but you've got to follow the facts 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:15.520 and you've got to look at it objectively, and that 0:19:15.640 --> 0:19:18.320 confirmation bias is dangerous. That you've got to take a 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.680 step away and just make sure that you're looking at 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:21.440 it objectively. 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:25.320 Yes, so what you said earlier is so important. So 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:27.800 what you need to do is as well as trying 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:30.880 to You're not you're not trying to prove a person 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:34.760 committed a murder. You're gathering the evidence for someone else 0:19:34.840 --> 0:19:37.640 to make the decision. That's your job. Your your job 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:40.240 is to gather the information to go to court for 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:43.080 that jury to make a decision on someone's guilt. And 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:45.920 you have to test both sides. You can't. You can't 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:49.159 just just look for the evidence that helps you in 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:51.760 your case. You have to look for both sides because 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:55.200 you're not judge a jury. You're you're looking you're and 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:57.640 what you said, they're about trying to prove that they didn't. 0:19:57.680 --> 0:19:59.879 That's a really important element. Well, what if we're wrong, 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:05.680 And when it comes to the decision making, looking for 0:20:05.880 --> 0:20:08.719 what if I'm wrong is such an important part of 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:13.160 that process because you might be wrong. And you told 0:20:13.200 --> 0:20:15.320 me earlier about hunches. I think they're the most dangerous 0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:17.400 thing in the world. I mean, yeah, you do get 0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:20.399 as a detective, you do start to get intuition and 0:20:20.680 --> 0:20:24.680 you get feelings for things. But you can never guarantee 0:20:24.680 --> 0:20:27.600 that's right. And if you place too much emphasis on 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:30.760 your gut feeling and you're wrong, that's where that's where 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.280 you end up going down the wrong avenue and you're 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:34.240 chasing the wrong person. 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:36.920 The hunches have got to be overlaid with the facts. Yeah, 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.440 you can't. You can't have a hunch and just run 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:42.840