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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average persons never

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Speaker 1: exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat. We've retired

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Speaker 1: Scotland yard detective Steve Kere. If you miss part one,

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Speaker 1: Steve has given us a good understanding of the processes

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Speaker 1: that go into place after his murder investigation team is

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Speaker 1: called to a deceased talked about what happens at the

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Speaker 1: crime scene, the importance of the crime scene information management,

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Speaker 1: notifying the families, and all other aspects of homicide investigation.

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Speaker 1: I really like Steve talking about standing still and just

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Speaker 1: taking in the crime scene and getting a feel of it.

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Speaker 1: And that's the thing that you can't teach. It something

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Speaker 1: that you learn through years of experience and probably be

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Speaker 1: shown by others that came before you. Let's get past

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Speaker 1: the crime scene. Now where do you guys run your

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Speaker 1: investigation from?

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Speaker 2: So there are different police bases, so we call us.

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Speaker 2: We don't call ourselves really, but the press tend to

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Speaker 2: call the Scotland Dart Detectives. But nobody works out of

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Speaker 2: Scotland Old anymore. Is shrunk.

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Speaker 1: It does sound cool, but yeah, yeah, I wouldn't like

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Speaker 1: Scotland Yard coming after.

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Speaker 2: That's shrunk down to a really small building. Budget cuts

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Speaker 2: everything got smaller, even the buildings, so we work out

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Speaker 2: a different basis. I worked out a place called Lewisham

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Speaker 2: Lusian Police Station in southeast London and we would have

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Speaker 2: a section of the police station that was set aside

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Speaker 2: for homicide and all that teams would be there. So

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Speaker 2: you nominally you work at a police station, but that

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Speaker 2: you're not connected to the police station in terms of

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Speaker 2: local policing. It's just the building your workout.

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Speaker 1: And we refer to them as a strikeforce room or

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Speaker 1: an incident room that when things are going well, each

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Speaker 1: police station has a room allocated that should be under

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Speaker 1: lock and seal in case a murder or a serious

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Speaker 1: investigation comes through, and they've got computers in there and

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Speaker 1: it's all right to go and ready to set up.

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Speaker 1: But I found running homicide investigations, it's crucial to have

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Speaker 1: a good functioning strikeforce room or investigation room, a place

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Speaker 1: where you've got all your team together, a place where

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Speaker 1: you've got your computers, you've got all your paperwork set up.

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Speaker 1: Would you agree with that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, as is permanent. So we have as the MII.

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Speaker 2: So it's the major instant room, and it's where all

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Speaker 2: the homes computers are and you have permanent staff there.

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Speaker 2: They're not police officers, they're civilians whose job it is

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Speaker 2: to maintain all the information that goes on to homes.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, that's central, that's central to it. So and

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Speaker 2: then you'd have a different office called the squad office

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Speaker 2: where the detectives would work out of. And a really

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Speaker 2: important element is that at some point at the beginning

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Speaker 2: of a murder, every day as a murder goes on,

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Speaker 2: maybe not as regular, but everybody comes together. Everybody from

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Speaker 2: the typists to all the detectives come together and share

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Speaker 2: in information, and that's really important.

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Speaker 1: I learned very early in my career as a homicide detective.

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Speaker 1: I could tell and even when I was a senior

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Speaker 1: detective running investigation, so I could almost tell the quality

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Speaker 1: of investigation by the manner in which briefings were done,

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Speaker 1: briefings in that incident room, detective's room, squad room.

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Speaker 2: Whatever you want to call it.

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Speaker 1: And I had some people and who I looked up

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Speaker 1: to as just great detective and they had an ability

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Speaker 1: to put all the information in a briefing, so everyone

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Speaker 1: felt like they were contributing to what's gone on, summarizing

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Speaker 1: what we know at this point in time, and explaining

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Speaker 1: the lines of inquiry and information and having not a

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Speaker 1: free for all, like someone was running the briefing, but

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Speaker 1: inviting everyone to have some form of input. What's your

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Speaker 1: thoughts on the importance of briefings, because I think they're crucial.

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Speaker 2: No, one hundred percent. So if you've got twenty five

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Speaker 2: detectives all running off in different directions, they need to

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Speaker 2: know what everybody else is doing and just as importantly,

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Speaker 2: how what they're doing fits in with everyone else. So

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Speaker 2: just as example, if you've got someone who's doing the

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Speaker 2: CCTV and then you've got if they understand what the witnesses,

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Speaker 2: officers the information they're coming back with, what the witnesses

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Speaker 2: are saying, what they've seen, the description of the suspect,

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Speaker 2: et cetera. Makes their job much easier. And there may

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Speaker 2: be something on the CCTV that wouldn't on its own,

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Speaker 2: wouldn't make sense, but when you fit in with everything else.

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Speaker 2: I'm a bit of a sci fi geek, and in

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Speaker 2: Star Trek they've got at this alien race called the

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Speaker 2: Borg and they're like a high mind where everybody knows

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Speaker 2: what everyone else is thinking. And that's a stage where

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Speaker 2: you want to try and reach. You want to be

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Speaker 2: able to get to a stage where everybody knows what

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Speaker 2: everybody else is doing. So that so it all does

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Speaker 2: fit in, because if you're all pulling off in different directions,

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Speaker 2: it's going to be much harder to solve the crime.

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Speaker 2: And the only way, really, you know what cops a

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Speaker 2: like area if you put something in a document, they

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Speaker 2: ain't going to read it. So if you've got them

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Speaker 2: in a room and they're all talking to each other.

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Speaker 2: They're much more likely to digest what's going on, and

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Speaker 2: they crucial and if you don't hold those meetings, you

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Speaker 2: don't have that cohesion and you make it much more

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Speaker 2: difficult for yourself to solve the crime.

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Speaker 1: One hundred percent. I think bringing everyone into that room,

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Speaker 1: and obviously it was sometimes that people couldn't make it,

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Speaker 1: but you'd have someone that they're working with that could

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Speaker 1: make the briefing, and I would go around the room

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Speaker 1: like if I was running the briefing. Okay, this is

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Speaker 1: what we know at this point in time. A lady's

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Speaker 1: body has been found in Parkland. We've got witnesses, have

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Speaker 1: been interviewed, but no one saw what happened post more

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Speaker 1: than result is of the pears. She's died of a

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Speaker 1: gunshot wound. This is what we know at this point

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Speaker 1: in time. And then I'd go to you, Steve. You

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Speaker 1: might be coordinating the CCTV footage. What have we got

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Speaker 1: from the CCTV footage. There might be another person that's

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Speaker 1: looking at the canvassing aspects. You've interviewed the person that

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Speaker 1: found the body, what information came from that person, And

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Speaker 1: you're going round the room. So everyone's input in and

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Speaker 1: we're all on the same page. I do like star Trek,

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Speaker 1: but I hadn't really thought of homicide investigation in the

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Speaker 1: form of a ball. But I take on board what

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Speaker 1: you're saying. But it is all that information. The good

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Speaker 1: leaders that I saw, they would encourage everyone to have

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Speaker 1: an input. And it could be some new kid that's

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Speaker 1: just come into the homicide sitting in the back of

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Speaker 1: the room and put his hand up nervously and say, hey, boss,

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Speaker 1: if you consider such and such, invariably it was a

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Speaker 1: good idea, if it was a good idea, and so

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Speaker 1: of course I considered that that's not but that input

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Speaker 1: and the other thing. I think those type of briefings

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Speaker 1: help everyone feels like they're part of a team and

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Speaker 1: everyone feels like they're contributing, because otherwise, if they're kept

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Speaker 1: in isolation, that's hard to motivate people if they don't

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Speaker 1: know the bigger picture.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm saying, if you're a good leader, you have

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Speaker 2: to create an environment that people feel comfortable to be

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Speaker 2: able to speak up and say as you say. Because

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Speaker 2: everyone when I was talking about that that the the

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Speaker 2: the analogy of a car, where it's the it's the

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Speaker 2: dyes that are directing it, and the d s's are

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Speaker 2: the pedals, and the dcs are the engine. That car

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Speaker 2: won't work. If it was just the dill it wouldn't move.

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Speaker 2: Which a car, it won't move. The ds is will

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Speaker 2: push it the pedal it would work. Everything has to

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Speaker 2: work together, and a murder is not solved by on

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Speaker 2: the new, on the on the On these drama dramatizations,

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Speaker 2: you see the DC idea run around solving murders that

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Speaker 2: they don't solve murders. The team sold the murder. No

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Speaker 2: one individual detective solves the murder. Even if you come

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Speaker 2: up with a really good bit of evidence, it still

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Speaker 2: has to fit in with everything else, and it still

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Speaker 2: has to get to a stage where it gets past

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Speaker 2: the CPS. It gets it's not going to be ripped

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Speaker 2: apart of court, So no one person can solve the murder.

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Speaker 2: It has to be a team. And I've been in meetings.

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Speaker 2: One of the most important people to having a meeting

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Speaker 2: I always thought was were the typists who put all

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Speaker 2: the information onto the computer because they read every single document.

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Speaker 2: I didn't read every single document, and they'll be there

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Speaker 2: and they'd be, oh, yeah, I remember I typed on

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Speaker 2: a message from a member of the public who said

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Speaker 2: I hadn't seen that, and you know what I mean,

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Speaker 2: but the fact that you've seen him put it on,

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Speaker 2: that could be really important. So everybody should feel comfortable

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Speaker 2: enough to say to put a hand up, like you say,

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Speaker 2: the new detective or anybody is.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure you've had people on your team that

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Speaker 1: you call the typist. We had that at one stage.

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Speaker 1: They eliminated that. So police are putting it all on,

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Speaker 1: which I think is a bad thing. Our skill set

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Speaker 1: could be better utilized. But that's that's just the way

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Speaker 1: we approach it. But some of the analysts I've worked with,

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Speaker 1: they're the ones of the attention to detail. And I

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Speaker 1: swear to god the crime wouldn't be solved without the

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Speaker 1: analysts that just got the ability to retain this attention

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Speaker 1: to detail. And I'd be talking and no, that's not

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Speaker 1: what happened. This is a right, sorry correction. Like attention

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Speaker 1: to detail, they're crucial to a good homicide investigation team,

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Speaker 1: I believe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So when I first joined the murder teams, it

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Speaker 2: was before the our government decided to absolutely rack policing

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Speaker 2: in the UK. But when I first joined, we had

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Speaker 2: an embedded intelligence analyst who is not a police officer, civilian,

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Speaker 2: really really highly trained in how to use different software

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Speaker 2: and methods for collecting intelligence information. And one of the

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Speaker 2: most important roles was a timeline. So if you've got

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Speaker 2: thousands of bits of information, if you overlay them on

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Speaker 2: a timeline, suddenly things become more You can see how

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Speaker 2: different events relate to each other, how to build up

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Speaker 2: to a murder happened, looking for an important trigger in

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Speaker 2: the build up to a murder. There's all different aspects

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Speaker 2: of a crime that you don't jump out of you

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Speaker 2: if you don't lay them in that timeline. And that's

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Speaker 2: one of the jobs of an intelligence analyst. And they

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Speaker 2: were really fundamental, crucial to our investigations. And then when

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Speaker 2: the budget cuts came in, they took them off of

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Speaker 2: their murder teams and they centralized them, and so you

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Speaker 2: would have an analyst attached to your saying that it

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Speaker 2: wasn't the same. They weren't embedded with you, they weren't

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Speaker 2: living and breathing the murder like we were, and our

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Speaker 2: investigations one hundred percent suffered because of that decision. It

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Speaker 2: all comes down some money, and that really, really, really

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Speaker 2: pisses me off. Investigating a murder should not be about money,

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Speaker 2: but sadly that's the world we live in.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the problems you're talking about are not this similar,

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Speaker 1: and I've been out for a couple of years now,

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Speaker 1: but I know the situation you're talking about where people

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Speaker 1: above didn't understand the value of I need this analyst

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Speaker 1: working with me full time. I need this. I need that.

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Speaker 1: You're not asking it for the fun of it. You're

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Speaker 1: asking it because this is what's needed to solve a murder.

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Speaker 1: When we talk lines of inquiry, people often say, as

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Speaker 1: a detective, do you have a hunch, And I say, well,

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Speaker 1: not a hunch. When you're looking at a line of inquiry,

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Speaker 1: a hypothesis or you might throw out this maybe this

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Speaker 1: person got murdered because he had a gambling habit or

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Speaker 1: something along like that line. That's a hypothesis.

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Speaker 2: It's not.

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Speaker 1: It's a line of inquiry that needs to be explored.

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Speaker 1: Do you want to just talk us through your mindset.

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Speaker 1: We've got you. We've taken you from the crime scene.

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Speaker 1: You've done the canvassinge of the crime scene, gathered all

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Speaker 1: the information, you've done your briefing, you've set up your

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Speaker 1: intint room or strikeforce room. But then you've got to

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Speaker 1: get to a point. Okay, which direction do I take

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Speaker 1: this investigation in? What's what's your mind thoughts? So what's

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Speaker 1: the processes that you'd go through with investigations at that stage?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, hypotheses are really important. So if you've got all

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Speaker 2: these detectives running around investigating stuff, they have to investigate something.

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Speaker 2: You can't. You can't ask them to go. You can't

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Speaker 2: say to the CCTV officer, go and get me CCTV.

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Speaker 2: You can't say to the phone's officer, go and get

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Speaker 2: me phone's data. What you need to do is investigate something.

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Speaker 2: That's where hypotheses come in. So so essentially what you're doing,

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Speaker 2: you're you're looking at the likely scenarios of how why

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Speaker 2: this murder would have happened, and you investigate them. So,

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Speaker 2: if so the person was killed because they because they've

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Speaker 2: got a rival drugs gang or something along those lines,

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Speaker 2: because they deal dealing drugs and it could be a

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Speaker 2: rival gang, or it could be a robbery or it

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Speaker 2: could so if you if you come up with a

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Speaker 2: likely scenarios, you can then investigate that. So you can

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Speaker 2: if it is if he is a drug dealer, Well

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Speaker 2: who is who else is dealing drugs in the area.

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Speaker 2: Have there been any recent robberies on drug dealers? Does it?

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Speaker 2: Has he had any fallings out? And so what you

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Speaker 2: need to do you need to investigate a lightly scenario

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Speaker 2: which will then open up potential evidence. You can't just that.

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Speaker 2: There has to be a focus to investigation, and that's

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Speaker 2: where hypotheses come in. And they're not made up. Then

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Speaker 2: they're not thinking all like fanciful ideas of what could

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Speaker 2: have happened. They're very very simple. So imagine a scenario

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Speaker 2: where a dead body is found in the woods and

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Speaker 2: all you know is this person has been killed in

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Speaker 2: the woods, and you know, we know nothing else about

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Speaker 2: them or their lifestyle or anything else. All we know

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Speaker 2: is you got a dead body in the woods. So

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Speaker 2: you have to investigate something. So if you set your

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Speaker 2: hypotheses as broad as this, that they were killed by

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Speaker 2: someone they knew, or they were killed by someone they

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Speaker 2: didn't know. So if you start off your investigation but

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Speaker 2: they were killed by someone they knew, you could so

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Speaker 2: then you so then you investigate their life. Who is

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Speaker 2: in their life? Who have they had any issues? Is

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Speaker 2: there anybody in their life that's threatened them in the past,

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Speaker 2: that kind of thing, or they were killed by someone

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Speaker 2: they didn't know. If they're killed by someone they didn't know,

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Speaker 2: then it would be someone in the area. What's been

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Speaker 2: going on in the area, as there been any robberies,

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Speaker 2: any for previous attacks, anyone hanging around. Then as you

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Speaker 2: get more information, your hypotheses can be more more focused.

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Speaker 2: But whatever happens, whatever scenario comes, it will stem from

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Speaker 2: one of those two things. They were killed by someone

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Speaker 2: they know, someone they didn't know. So in the meantime,

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Speaker 2: you're not missing anything. You're you're not missing a line

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Speaker 2: of inquiry that that you could think, oh, we didn't

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Speaker 2: do that well, and now it's too late. And then

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Speaker 2: there's more information comes in. Supposing this person that's there

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Speaker 2: I don't know is in a volatile relationship with someone,

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Speaker 2: then you can you can have a specific hypothesis around that.

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Speaker 2: But in the meantime, you've not lost anything. You and

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Speaker 2: and more information comes in you can develop and change hypotheses.

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Speaker 2: But they're really important because I say, detectives need to

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Speaker 2: be focused, they need to investigate something, and you're giving

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Speaker 2: them a starting point to investigate.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I think you explained it very well, Because you've

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Speaker 1: got to start somewhere and point them in the direction.

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Speaker 1: The confirmation bias can cloud your judgment. Let's speak hypothetically.

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Speaker 1: If a woman's body is found in the woods as

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Speaker 1: you described, and being in a volatile relationship with her

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Speaker 1: ex partner, confirmation bias can be dangerous if that's all

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Speaker 1: you're looking for. That you think, okay, that's my hypothesis.

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Speaker 1: They're in a domestic situation, they've had a falling out,

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Speaker 1: he's probably killed her, and you concentrate there. What's the

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Speaker 1: dangers of confirmation bias in an investigation?

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Speaker 2: Quite simple. If you're looking over here and the murder's

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Speaker 2: over there, you'll miss them. And so in that scenario,

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Speaker 2: you would run a number of hypotheses. One would be

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Speaker 2: that the woman was killed by a partner, but simultaneously

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Speaker 2: investigate that she wasn't. Now on the flip side of

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Speaker 2: that, there's a chance is it's not the partner, So you

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Speaker 2: have to investigate both. And confirmation bias, I think is

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Speaker 2: the worst enemy of a detective. If you get caught

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Speaker 2: in that trap, the results from that can be horrendous.

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Speaker 2: So I always refer to a case we had in

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Speaker 2: the UK. It was a lady by named Rachel Michel.

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Speaker 2: She was nineteen years old, she had a young child.

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Speaker 2: She was on a place called Wimbledon Common and she

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Speaker 2: was brutally murdered in front of her front of a

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Speaker 2: young child. And the police investigated at the time, this

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Speaker 2: was the early nineties, brought in a criminal profiler and

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Speaker 2: he came up with a profile that essentially was it's

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Speaker 2: their local weirdo. And there was a local weirdo that

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Speaker 2: happened to be in the park at that time, known

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Speaker 2: by the name of Colin Stag, and the police went

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Speaker 2: hard for him. They even introduced a female undercover officers

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Speaker 2: to try and get him to confess to the murder.

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Speaker 2: They went all out. They were absolutely convinced it was

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Speaker 2: Colin Stag and it got to the point where they

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Speaker 2: even charged him with murder. So he was going to

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Speaker 2: trial and as soon as he got to call the

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Speaker 2: judge through out and Colin Stagg was acquitted of the murder.

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Speaker 2: And he did not commit this murder. It wasn't him,

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Speaker 2: but they were absolutely convinced, and they didn't they ignored

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Speaker 2: that it could have been anyone else. When in actual

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Speaker 2: fact it was a man by the name of Robert Napper,

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Speaker 2: and a number of a year a year or two

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Speaker 2: later after he killed Rachel, he in almost a ritualistic,

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Speaker 2: really brutal murder. He killed a young mum and a

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Speaker 2: young five year old child. And it was only later

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Speaker 2: on when some DNA came back on the Rachel and

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Speaker 2: thecal murder they identified Robert Napper. Now I'm not saying

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Speaker 2: that the police if they had hadn't an investigated Steak,

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Speaker 2: that they would have got Napper, but by not looking

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Speaker 2: for that, but they were never going to get him.

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Speaker 2: And the result of that is that a young mum

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Speaker 2: and a child brutally brutally murdered when there's a chance,

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying it would have happened, but there's a

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Speaker 2: chance if they hadn't have been so caught up in

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Speaker 2: Stag they might have got to NAPA. And that's the

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Speaker 2: danger that can happen when you'd convince yourself and what

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Speaker 2: you end up doing confirmation bias. Essentially, what you're doing

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Speaker 2: you've made up your mind and you go and go

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Speaker 2: look for information to prove yourself right, rather than look

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Speaker 2: for information that points to who the killer is and

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Speaker 2: once you get caught up in that trap, as I say,

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Speaker 2: the consequences can be as dire as thats was what

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Speaker 2: happened to someone for and HASMI.

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Speaker 1: That's a horrendous example, but I can see how it happens.

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Speaker 1: And that's the pressure of homicide investigation. If you get

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Speaker 1: it wrong, Yeah, there's consequences. If you get it wrong,

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Speaker 1: someone might get away with murder you. I don't think

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Speaker 1: there's any fair mind the detective that wants to see

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Speaker 1: someone put a way that hasn't done the crime. I

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Speaker 1: think that anyone with a fair mind would be horrified

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Speaker 1: by that scenario. Sometimes we'd have someone that really looked

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Speaker 1: good for it. It might be used to we're thinking, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he's good for it, and they would have inquiries trying

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Speaker 1: to disprove it before we move forward on it. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's where the facts take you. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: an important thing as a dejective that you can't Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can have your your theories, I call them case theories.

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Speaker 1: This might happen, but you've got to follow the facts

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Speaker 1: and you've got to look at it objectively, and that

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Speaker 1: confirmation bias is dangerous. That you've got to take a

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Speaker 1: step away and just make sure that you're looking at

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Speaker 1: it objectively.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so what you said earlier is so important. So

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Speaker 2: what you need to do is as well as trying

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Speaker 2: to You're not you're not trying to prove a person

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Speaker 2: committed a murder. You're gathering the evidence for someone else

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Speaker 2: to make the decision. That's your job. Your your job

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Speaker 2: is to gather the information to go to court for

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Speaker 2: that jury to make a decision on someone's guilt. And

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Speaker 2: you have to test both sides. You can't. You can't

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Speaker 2: just just look for the evidence that helps you in

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Speaker 2: your case. You have to look for both sides because

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Speaker 2: you're not judge a jury. You're you're looking you're and

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Speaker 2: what you said, they're about trying to prove that they didn't.

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Speaker 2: That's a really important element. Well, what if we're wrong,

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Speaker 2: And when it comes to the decision making, looking for

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Speaker 2: what if I'm wrong is such an important part of

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Speaker 2: that process because you might be wrong. And you told

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Speaker 2: me earlier about hunches. I think they're the most dangerous

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Speaker 2: thing in the world. I mean, yeah, you do get

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Speaker 2: as a detective, you do start to get intuition and

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Speaker 2: you get feelings for things. But you can never guarantee

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Speaker 2: that's right. And if you place too much emphasis on

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Speaker 2: your gut feeling and you're wrong, that's where that's where

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Speaker 2: you end up going down the wrong avenue and you're

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Speaker 2: chasing the wrong person.

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Speaker 1: The hunches have got to be overlaid with the facts. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you can't. You can't have a hunch and just run

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Speaker 1: on a hunch. And I've seen people do it and

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Speaker 1: it can take it in the in the wrong direction.

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Speaker 1: When I get complicated investigations where there's a lot of suspects,

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Speaker 1: three eras I look at is opportunity, capability and motive.

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Speaker 1: And to help me cut through, we might have hundreds,

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Speaker 1: truly hundreds of potential suspects in a case, so opportunity

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Speaker 1: capability and motive opportunity, we might be able to eliminate

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Speaker 1: one hundred of these suspects because they are overseas, are

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Speaker 1: in prison at the time, so they didn't have the

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Speaker 1: opportunity capability. Would they be capable of committing the crime?

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Speaker 1: Are they physically capable of committing the crime, has a

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Speaker 1: history of it, and their motive And I put motive

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Speaker 1: that is the last because sometimes you solve murders without

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Speaker 1: even knowing the motive. Sometimes it's you're wishing you the

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Speaker 1: motive you don't know. Sometimes the crooks don't even know

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Speaker 1: the motive. I think on occasions, how do you break

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Speaker 1: down when you've got a there's a whole range of suscepts.

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Speaker 1: It might be a child murder, it might be a

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Speaker 1: gangland murder. How do you cut through and prioritize what

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Speaker 1: lines of inquiry you or who you start to look

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Speaker 1: at first.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we don't use it on all murders, but

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Speaker 2: we have a method known as TIE. So they change

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Speaker 2: what the TIE stands for. It used to be traced

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Speaker 2: to eliminate, to tracing the eliminate. Now I think it's trace, interview, evaluate,

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Speaker 2: but they change the words, but it's the same thing.

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Speaker 2: So essentially, you've got a list of people, and that

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Speaker 2: list could be I don't know, the last person that's

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Speaker 2: sort of victim alive, people that have had issues with

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Speaker 2: a victim, people in the area at the time, people

431
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,679
Speaker 2: last in contact, whatever it is. You come up with

432
00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,399
Speaker 2: a criteria that you're going to form this list and

433
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 2: then and then the important part is your elimination. How

434
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 2: am I going to what am I going to use

435
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,760
Speaker 2: to eliminate them. Have I got a description of the

436
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,640
Speaker 2: suspect and I can use that as a basis because

437
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,360
Speaker 2: they clearly aren't suspectause they don't fit the description, as

438
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 2: you say, were they imprison were they were they not

439
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,400
Speaker 2: in the area at the time, kind of play them elsewhere.

440
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,199
Speaker 2: And what that does is you can then start to

441
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 2: prioritize who you look at. That doesn't mean your elimination

442
00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:49,280
Speaker 2: regard to you has to be careful, because you don't

443
00:22:49,280 --> 00:22:51,320
Speaker 2: want eliminate someone, and it is that it has to

444
00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 2: be really well thought out. And then and then because

445
00:22:54,320 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 2: you can't you had a fewer people than we did.

446
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,640
Speaker 2: I mean, we had twenty five people on a murder team.

447
00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 2: If you had closer to ten, you can't. You can't

448
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 2: investigate everyone at the same time. If you really resources

449
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 2: of finance, you have to prioritize. So then you'd be

450
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 2: a case of right, we look at the person at

451
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 2: the top and go down. Then it might be that

452
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,199
Speaker 2: you get warrants for the houses, you interview them, you

453
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:20,359
Speaker 2: arrest them, whatever it is, but you need you need

454
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 2: to investigate them all one at a time. Thankfully, those

455
00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 2: murders aren't. That's not the norm many many murders are

456
00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,640
Speaker 2: much more simple to solve, but you get those ones

457
00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:31,679
Speaker 2: that are really difficult.

458
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,439
Speaker 1: So the process of breaking it down is prioritize and

459
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 1: then eliminate and then okay, we've got rid of the

460
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,240
Speaker 1: number one suspect. We'll go to the next one and

461
00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 1: work your way down. That's how when I had ones

462
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 1: that I felt overwhelmed with, That's that's how how I

463
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:53,680
Speaker 1: approached it. Quite often a difficult stage in the homicide

464
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 1: investigation is at what stage do you move on the suspect,

465
00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 1: Like what stays you declared that he's a he or

466
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,919
Speaker 1: her is a suspect? Or do you arrest a person

467
00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: now if it's a serial killer or the person might

468
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,560
Speaker 1: cause harm to someone else. Sometimes the pressures on talk

469
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,919
Speaker 1: us through your thoughts on the timing of the arrest

470
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:14,880
Speaker 1: of a suspect.

471
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 2: I was always a fan of an early arrest, and

472
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,879
Speaker 2: in the UK I don't always like in Australia. So

473
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 2: I know I've gone over and done talks in America

474
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,360
Speaker 2: and when I when I'm chatting to detectives over there,

475
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 2: that's their their bar for arrest is much higher than

476
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 2: us in the UK, as is quite low, So you

477
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 2: need two things. You need to suspect a crime has

478
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,320
Speaker 2: been committed. We're investigating the murder, that's an easy one.

479
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,960
Speaker 2: And you need to suspect the person is guilty of here.

480
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 2: And that level of suspicion is really low. I mean,

481
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,400
Speaker 2: it could be and it's and it's subjective anyway.

482
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 1: So braving on the mind of the police officer exactly one.

483
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,280
Speaker 2: And so how did you quantify that I suspected he

484
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 2: was guilty. I can justify it. It could be. It

485
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 2: could be the tiniest little thing. But earlier bests quite

486
00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,440
Speaker 2: often lead on to information and evidence that you wouldn't

487
00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 2: have got otherwise. So as an example, so we investigated

488
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: there was a tragic case. It was an arson attack

489
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 2: on a family home and it was a mum and

490
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 2: her four children. There were two older boys who were

491
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,719
Speaker 2: sort of in their twenties, a girl of twenty one

492
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 2: who is at UNI, a fifteen year old daughter who's

493
00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 2: at school. And when we were investigating what may have happened,

494
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 2: we used hypotheses and which one of this family is

495
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:37,520
Speaker 2: likely to be and so we're looking at the family,

496
00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 2: which one of the family is likely to be targeted? Well,

497
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 2: they were all really decent people. There was nothing in

498
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 2: their lifestyle that would lead to that. They were all

499
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:47,960
Speaker 2: really decent people, so there was nothing in their lifestyle

500
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:51,200
Speaker 2: that would indicate why someone would attack them in this way. Basically,

501
00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 2: it's two o'clock in the morning, petrol poured through their

502
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 2: letter box, set a light and the moment what the

503
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 2: oldest son managed to get out the window. The two

504
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 2: sisters got caught in the fire and the youngest son

505
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 2: got caught and by the time we picked it up

506
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,000
Speaker 2: it wasn't They hadn't died, so it was it wasn't

507
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,679
Speaker 2: looking good, so it wasn't a murder inquiry at the beginning,

508
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,440
Speaker 2: but it was an attemptive murder. So we were looking

509
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: at things like had they had any fall ups with people,

510
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 2: any incidents within their life? They were Asian, so it

511
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 2: was was it racially motivated? Was was this attack because

512
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,959
Speaker 2: of their color? Was it a mistaken identity? Had there

513
00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,120
Speaker 2: been in the who lived next door to them? Could

514
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 2: it have been that somebody else was targeted they just

515
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,239
Speaker 2: went to the wrong house. Is it Have there been

516
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,160
Speaker 2: any other incidents in the area and a nactual fact

517
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 2: there were there have been some arsenal attacks and there

518
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 2: was a gang, an Afghan Afghan gang that were using

519
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 2: arsenals at all to arrested some of them, but we

520
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:49,880
Speaker 2: were really struggling to come up with any any kind

521
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,320
Speaker 2: of motive, and sadly, the two daughters died, so the

522
00:26:52,320 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 2: fifteen year old girl and the twenty one year old

523
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,159
Speaker 2: they succumbed to their injuries. So it was now a

524
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 2: murder inquiry, and the family aison offices say that it

525
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:02,879
Speaker 2: was so important when you build up that picture of

526
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 2: their life. They were at the hospital with the family

527
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 2: and the youngest girl, Malaya, she had been in this

528
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 2: kind of school ground, school playground type relationship. It wasn't

529
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 2: it wasn't a relationship. I think this boy had asked

530
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 2: to go out of it. She said yes, and she

531
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 2: said no, something something as simple as that. And because

532
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 2: we were really struggling, we had no we had no

533
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 2: clues that would be of any motive that we could

534
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 2: have found. It was there only one. Was there only

535
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: one that she had had just fallen out with this boy.

536
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 2: So we took that decision to make the early arrest

537
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:35,919
Speaker 2: and I went there. I arrested him. I looked him

538
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 2: in the eye and told him he's being arrested for murder,

539
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 2: nothing back from him, And for me, that was a

540
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,480
Speaker 2: really important part of any I always tried to be

541
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,280
Speaker 2: there for the arrest, if I tried to do the

542
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: rest myself, or if not, I tried to be there,

543
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: because looking someone in the eye and giving him those

544
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 2: words can give you such a clue as to as

545
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 2: to am I on the right track. I've got nothing

546
00:27:56,520 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: back from this kid, nothing at all. And we brought

547
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,159
Speaker 2: him in, interviewed him, denied any knowledge of it. It

548
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,639
Speaker 2: got bailed out in a process. We'd taken his phone,

549
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,720
Speaker 2: his laptop, et cetera. And of course so late we've

550
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 2: got a phone call from the lab who'd been going

551
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,520
Speaker 2: through his stuff to say that we've got I mean,

552
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 2: it was an excited phone call, and he said and

553
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:19,880
Speaker 2: the engineer told us that the day before the murder,

554
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 2: he'd googled how to burn somebody's house down. So we'd

555
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 2: gone from thinking, well, we've got nothing, well, we'll arrest

556
00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 2: him anyway, and then we'll see what evidence that turns up,

557
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 2: and from that it just it just completely opened up.

558
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 2: So and then from there we can build on his

559
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 2: phone evidence and there's loads of evidence and were then

560
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 2: we were in no doubt whatsoever. And then he was

561
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 2: due to fly back to Pakistan, so he's blue lights

562
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 2: asirens to get there. Rearrested him and this time wasn't

563
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 2: going anywhere and ended up getting convicted of both murders.

564
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:54,959
Speaker 2: But so so first off on motive, so your grounds

565
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 2: of arrest, you're not you're not looking for the evidence

566
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: that we're convictim, just looking for that vision. And the

567
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 2: early arrest can open up all sorts of avenues. When

568
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 2: you're searching somebody's house, you take and things are just

569
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 2: simple things like when like I said earlier on about

570
00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 2: when someone's in a friends with knife attack, they might

571
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:14,360
Speaker 2: have injuries, like injuries to the hand that will start

572
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: to heal if you don't get to them early. They

573
00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 2: might have bruises on their body where they've been in

574
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 2: a fight, which will start to go. If you don't

575
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 2: get to them early, they've got chance to destroy evidence.

576
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 2: So an early arrest I always I would much rather

577
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 2: have an earlier rest and be wrong than dither. And

578
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 2: by the time you actually get to them, that evidence

579
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 2: is gone. You might even know it because you would

580
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 2: never you'd never know it was there in the first place.

581
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 2: But you've got so much more chance of missing evidence,

582
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,360
Speaker 2: so an early arrest and if you're wrong, all right,

583
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 2: yeah it's not it's not. You don't you don't. You

584
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 2: don't arrest people willy nilly because it is a big

585
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 2: thing arresting someone for a murder, so you have to

586
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 2: give it a lot of thought. But if the grounds

587
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,080
Speaker 2: are there, then then make the earli arrest and try

588
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: and get hold of the evidence.

589
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:58,480
Speaker 1: And Steve, I know they're tough decisions. We've had people

590
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: in the charge room with arrest to them and we're

591
00:30:00,800 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: going to let them go, and we're running out of

592
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,840
Speaker 1: our custody time, the custody time, so yeah, it's really

593
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 1: coming down do we arrest them or do we charge them?

594
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 1: They're hard decisions, aren't they, and that you're making them

595
00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: under under pressure, and you know that those decisions that

596
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: you make are going to be scrutinized. They're going to

597
00:30:17,120 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: be scrutinized big time, because yeah, I have a few

598
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: people that play guilty to murder, but most people will

599
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: defend it at court though, and and then mail appeal

600
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: it after you've convicted them, and then you know you'll

601
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: be five years down the track after they've already been convicted,

602
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 1: you'll be back in court. But sometimes you've got to

603
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: make those hard decisions. We keep what's called the commander's

604
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: log or an investigation log here and the tough, high

605
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: profile investigations I've worked on. I'm meticulous in the way

606
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 1: that I keep the log or the decisions I make

607
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:51,959
Speaker 1: and that and they might look back with the benefit

608
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 1: of hindsight and say, well, that was the wrong decision,

609
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,760
Speaker 1: But at the time I made the decision, this was

610
00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 1: the information I had had at hand. What's your thoughts

611
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: on keeping you your record? So now you talked in

612
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,239
Speaker 1: part one about that even at the crime soon you're

613
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: keeping logs. But I would do that during the course

614
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 1: of an investigation, yea one hundred percent.

615
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 2: So when a murder happens, senior officer will open the

616
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: decision log. We call it just exactly sounds the same thing.

617
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 2: So it's a yes decision log. It's like a self

618
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: carbonated book. You write a decision in and so when

619
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: you're recording it, you're not just recording what decision you made.

620
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 2: You need to you need to record why you're making

621
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 2: a decision, what what what is the information I had

622
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 2: that led me to make that decision. Because what's what's

623
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 2: likely to happen is you're going to have to be

624
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: asked to justify that decision in court, which could be

625
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 2: a year two, it could be it could be ten

626
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,400
Speaker 2: years later for you know, and you're being asked to

627
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 2: justify the decision, and you will have no idea why

628
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 2: you made it. What did I know at that time?

629
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 2: If you haven't written it down, you will never remember it.

630
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 2: So I'm making this what what what do I know?

631
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: So the way I the way I used to write

632
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 2: my decisions was this, so so so what what what

633
00:31:58,040 --> 00:31:59,960
Speaker 2: do I know at this stage? What do I know?

634
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:00,040
Speaker 1: So?

635
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 2: What do I want to achieve? What is the purpose

636
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 2: of me making this decision? So here's where I am,

637
00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 2: Here's where I want to be, and how am I

638
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 2: going to get this? So what is my process for

639
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 2: getting there? Making that decision? And if you record it

640
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 2: like that, so anyone who comes back to you, well,

641
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 2: why do you make this decisions? Well, this is what

642
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 2: I knew at the time, this is what I was

643
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 2: trying to achieve, and this is the decision I made

644
00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:27,440
Speaker 2: to try and get there. And right, they can try

645
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: me clever and say well you were wrong, So well, yeah, okay,

646
00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 2: in hindsight, six weeks later, once I had the further evidence,

647
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,200
Speaker 2: I probably wouldn't have made that decision, But at that time,

648
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 2: that's the information I had, and that's the decision I

649
00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 2: came to. Yeah, I was wrong, but it's a justified decision,

650
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 2: and that's so important, huge impact.

651
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 1: And you can retain your integrity and credibility in a

652
00:32:48,920 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 1: witness box, in a court situation, the inquiry situation if

653
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,400
Speaker 1: at the time I made this decision to arrest this

654
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:59,719
Speaker 1: personal or let this person run based on these facts.

655
00:32:59,840 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: And it's a safeguard because one I think, to be

656
00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: a homicide detective, you've got to have thick skin because

657
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: what I know with homicide, no matter what you do,

658
00:33:09,800 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: someone's going to be criticizing you. It's going to be

659
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 1: the defense barriss or it's going to be your own organization,

660
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: or the victims family, the suspects family. You're going to

661
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: be attacked. So you go to I see the way

662
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,239
Speaker 1: of you've got to have the thick skin and you

663
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: get battle scarred to a point. But to have those

664
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: detailed records, I don't think people appreciate how comprehensive, the

665
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: records are and in decision making with homicide investigations.

666
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and as the leader in a murder inquiry, you

667
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 2: have to make those decisions. You have to record those decisions,

668
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 2: and if you don't, you're going to come unstuck at court.

669
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 2: And as I say, everything you do comes back to

670
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,160
Speaker 2: that courtroom. And if you're not thinking about that, there's

671
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 2: no good later on going Actually I should have recorded

672
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 2: this or sugar in that hand. If you don't write

673
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,600
Speaker 2: it down at the time, you're never going to remember.

674
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 2: It's your integrity is gone. So well you recalled that

675
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 2: six months later, how do you know that was so?

676
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 2: And we timestampad decision lock, so so there's no there's

677
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 2: no there's no debate later on about it.

678
00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: Contemporaneous. This was made at the time, and it doesn't

679
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: cut cut very well in the witness box. I can't

680
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 1: recall it was a long time ago like that doesn't

681
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: you don't You don't have that luxury as a decision

682
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: making in a homicide investigation, I look at options too,

683
00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:37,359
Speaker 1: operational options. That's another thing, though I would document the

684
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: reasons why. And yeah, gangland murders, organized crime type murders.

685
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 1: Sometimes you've got someone running that you think, well, if

686
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: he stays out, this person might be killed, or if

687
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: we move now, this will happen, or we've got the

688
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 1: advantage they don't know we're looking at them. I would

689
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,040
Speaker 1: list all the options too, I'd document it there and

690
00:34:55,440 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: option one arrest well benefits he's taken off the street. Negatives,

691
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,359
Speaker 1: he'll probably be released the first time your peers at

692
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: court because there's not sufficient evidence. Option to put the

693
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 1: violence on them. Yeah, and you scarlet down, But there

694
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 1: is a lot about the information the documents that you

695
00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,319
Speaker 1: make when you're investigating homicide. Yeah.

696
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 2: And also what it does is if you make yourself

697
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 2: write down a decision and make yourself as you're saying,

698
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 2: you're considering your options, you'll come to a better decision

699
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 2: because in order to make a good decision, you have

700
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 2: to think about what your options are. You have to

701
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 2: think and more often than not, so when you're making decisions,

702
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 2: it should never be a binary decision. It shouldn't be

703
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:44,000
Speaker 2: should be arresting yes or no? Well, what are my

704
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:47,400
Speaker 2: other options? And very often when you're making decisions, really

705
00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 2: important decisions, and you force yourself to think of your options.

706
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:53,480
Speaker 2: You will often come up with a compromise that is

707
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 2: actually the best decision, that is the best way forward

708
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 2: because you've thought about your options, you thought about what

709
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 2: can go wrong, you thought about what you're trying to achieve,

710
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 2: and by following that process, you come up with a

711
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 2: better decision. And as I said before, I think decision

712
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,120
Speaker 2: making is such an important skill for detectives.

713
00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 1: It's crucial. And you mentioned the thing there that sort

714
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: of made me think about how I'd approached some of

715
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 1: the difficult investigations where I'm looking at Okay, Steve, I'm

716
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,839
Speaker 1: thinking Steve's a suspect. Do we arrest him? I quite

717
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: often okay, well, what facts could I present to the court?

718
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:29,120
Speaker 1: And I can have it in my head, I can

719
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: have it in all the documents, but I actually sit

720
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,879
Speaker 1: down and type up, Okay, how would the fact sheet look?

721
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: And sometimes it looks and go okay, I think we

722
00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:40,960
Speaker 1: have got enough there, Or conversely, it could look who

723
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,000
Speaker 1: am I kidding? We've got no evidence when it's all

724
00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 1: said and done, and just putting it in writing, and

725
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: I take on board what you say. It makes you

726
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 1: think about think about the decisions that are floating through

727
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 1: your head. The interview room, the importance of the interview room.

728
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 1: What's your thoughts on what goes on in an interview.

729
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 2: I've got mixed feelings on this really, so so one

730
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:04,879
Speaker 2: one thing that I think people from the outside looking

731
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:07,840
Speaker 2: in often get confused with is that the purpose of

732
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:11,160
Speaker 2: an interview. So it's not about getting a confession. That's

733
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 2: not that's not why you're interviewing a suspect. You're not

734
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 2: trying to make them confess to the crime. What you

735
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 2: want them to do is commit to a story. You

736
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 2: don't want them to commit to even if I wasn't there,

737
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,479
Speaker 2: I didn't do it, I wasn't there, commit to that

738
00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 2: so then we can disprove that. If we quickly there,

739
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 2: then then we can disprove that. So it is important,

740
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 2: but I personally, I think it's the least important of

741
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,360
Speaker 2: all the things because if you're if you're having to

742
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:40,279
Speaker 2: rely on a confession to prove a murder, then you

743
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 2: need to you need to go away and think about

744
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:43,880
Speaker 2: the rest of your evidence.

745
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 1: You're desperate at that stage, isn't it when when it

746
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: comes to I know, the confession.

747
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:50,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, if you if you need a confession for murder,

748
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 2: then then you're you're not where you need to be.

749
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 2: I want, I want to be able to prove a

750
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 2: murder regardless of what they say. Oh, in an ideal world,

751
00:37:58,920 --> 00:38:01,479
Speaker 2: they would confess everything and tell you where their murder

752
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:03,120
Speaker 2: weapon was and tell you where they've got rid of

753
00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: their clothing. Brilliant, because you can all add to that, really,

754
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,440
Speaker 2: really really Rarely, if ever, does that ever happen. If

755
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 2: someone's going to talk to you an interview, generally they're

756
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 2: trying to talk their way out out of something, not

757
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 2: confessed with it.

758
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: And if you're going properly prepared, sometimes the denial can

759
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: be as good as a confession, because you know you

760
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: can contradict, like now I wasn't there, and well we

761
00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 1: know that you've got your DNA. You don't have to

762
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:26,480
Speaker 1: declare it straight up there. Let them deny, deny, and

763
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: then hid them with that, and then they're less done.

764
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 2: And then by the time he gets a court, the

765
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 2: jury can see that they've lied. And once they've lied once,

766
00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 2: how can we believe them now? But the problem we

767
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 2: have in the UK, I might say the problem, but

768
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 2: it's a fact is a majority of our interviews go

769
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,200
Speaker 2: no comment because we've got a right to silence, so

770
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 2: they'll get a solicitor and they'll literally say no comment.

771
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 2: And and to be honest, that never bothered me. And

772
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 2: in the UK there is a repercussion if you say

773
00:38:56,080 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 2: no comment in an interview. At trial, the judge can

774
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 2: direct a jury to have an influence of guilt. So,

775
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 2: I e. If they were innocent, why did they not

776
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 2: give the account they give you now? Back at the

777
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 2: police station, they were doing an easy I was. I

778
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 2: had one trial. It was uh, it was it was

779
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 2: a GameLine shooting. It was a motorbike and pulled up

780
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 2: next the car and shot shot the person in the

781
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 2: car and outside the caught. One of the jury members

782
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 2: came up to me, we've got the guilty verdict, a

783
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 2: little old lady and she said, thank you very much

784
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 2: for everything you've done, she said, she said, you know

785
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 2: what I knew. I knew he was guilty as soon

786
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 2: as I heard that he said no comment in an interview. Yes,

787
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 2: so yeah, they might.

788
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: Have How people think that legislation you talk about was

789
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 1: introduced over here in New South Wales and does assist

790
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 1: like an inference instead of someone making no comment when

791
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: you've arrested them, no comment then turning up at the

792
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: trial and going, oh, well, and they've got their alibi

793
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: or created and all that, so the judge can give

794
00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 1: a warning on that or an inference can be taken.

795
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 1: Why didn't they declare that right at the start? Homicide

796
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: trials they're exhausting. I don't think people understand. Like I

797
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: look back at my career, I still get a I

798
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: think a physical reaction when I go into a court

799
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 1: because I've had so many tense times in a court

800
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,360
Speaker 1: through murder trials, and it's an emotional rollercoaster, isn't it.

801
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: You don't know which way the jury is going. They

802
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 1: don't go over one or two days. You could be

803
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 1: there for months and it's the pressures on constantly. Talk

804
00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 1: to us about your experience with murder trials.

805
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I be honest, I don't miss them.

806
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:43,680
Speaker 2: The high I was talking about at a very beginning

807
00:40:43,680 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 2: where you get your conviction is fantastic, but a build

808
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 2: up to it, I didn't enjoy it. So just turning

809
00:40:48,680 --> 00:40:50,960
Speaker 2: up on the first day is going to be You've

810
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 2: got no idea where it's going to go. So we

811
00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 2: just simple things like in the UK we have disclosure

812
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: laws where you have to disclose certain bits of information

813
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,520
Speaker 2: to the defense. State of trial, they'll hit you with

814
00:41:01,560 --> 00:41:03,560
Speaker 2: a big list of things they want disguised that they

815
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: could have asked for months ago. So you're running around there.

816
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,879
Speaker 2: And then for me, the most stressful part of any

817
00:41:10,960 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 2: murder trial is the witnesses. Are they going to turn up?

818
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,920
Speaker 2: There's always a witness that such changes in mind. They

819
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:19,160
Speaker 2: don't want to have to get a summons through them

820
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 2: or a warrant or something else. And then when they

821
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: do turn up, what are they going to say in

822
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 2: the box? Are they going to change their account? Are

823
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 2: they come out with something they didn't tell you before?

824
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 2: So that initial stage, because so the bigging the first

825
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 2: part of any murder trial is the prosecution case and

826
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 2: that that is the most stressful part getting through that.

827
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 2: And in the UK, I'm sure it's the same in Australia.

828
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 2: The start of the trial will be the prosecution with

829
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 2: their opening and it will be outlining what the case

830
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:53,000
Speaker 2: is and the evidence and what you're hoping for. Really

831
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 2: is by the end of the prosecution case, you're at

832
00:41:55,560 --> 00:42:00,319
Speaker 2: the same level as the opening speech as you anything,

833
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 2: you haven't lost anything. Yeah, So that's that's that's as

834
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 2: much as you can hope for, and there's no guarantee

835
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 2: you're going to do that, and getting through that isn't nice.

836
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:15,439
Speaker 2: I came across many decent defense barristers, but I came

837
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 2: across equally equal number of decades. To put it.

838
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,719
Speaker 1: Mildly, really, I think that's fair to say, Steve. I

839
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: understand they're doing the job, but some go way above

840
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,240
Speaker 1: and beyond, Like if it was us doing as police,

841
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: going that hard, there'd be criticism. And when they do

842
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: this defense you talked about requisitions that just they would

843
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: do it deliberately, like it'll be a Friday afternoon, the

844
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: trials do the start Monday, and you receive at three

845
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 1: o'clock in the afternoon. You've got a weekend where you

846
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:47,120
Speaker 1: just want to clear your head and get ready for

847
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: the trial. And there'll be a list of requisitions that

848
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: you know, they know will take you all weekend, working

849
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 1: through the night to get And it's just trying to

850
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 1: rattle you before. And if I say this to defense

851
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,160
Speaker 1: barrisses or legal people listening to it, they oh, we

852
00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 1: wouldn't do that. That's what they're doing. They're trying to

853
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: rattle the detective or detectives, the investigation team, the prosecution

854
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:14,240
Speaker 1: before the trial with these unrealistic requisitions that, as you said,

855
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 1: they've had the brief for months, if not years, they

856
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 1: could have asked for them, but they leave it to

857
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,480
Speaker 1: the last moment, and knowing that you're just going to

858
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:26,680
Speaker 1: turn up frazzled on the Monday morning before you present

859
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: the court. I think I'm the same as you. I

860
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 1: love those highs where you get the guilty and you

861
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 1: feel like all your work's being justified. But I don't

862
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 1: miss the court. I don't miss being in the witness box.

863
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 1: I don't miss been in there for days, been cross

864
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 1: examined and questioned about what you've done and the decisions.

865
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 1: And it's a theater in part with the jury. There

866
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: isn't it Like they're trying to rattle it and just

867
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 1: trying to discredit you in front of the front of

868
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 1: a jury. Not a pleasant place.

869
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 2: To be, No, not time. I mean, and you've given

870
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,960
Speaker 2: everyone and it's a lot of pressure. I've given evidence

871
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,120
Speaker 2: and not come out. Why did I say that? Why

872
00:44:03,160 --> 00:44:07,839
Speaker 2: didn't I say this? And it's awful and and and

873
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: what you don't want to do, You don't want to

874
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,720
Speaker 2: get into an argument with the barristers because that always

875
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:15,880
Speaker 2: that always goes one way. But they're trying to undermine you.

876
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 2: They're trying to make you look competent, and it's not pleasant.

877
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 2: Nobody wants to go through it out of there.

878
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 1: You know you don't, but you do get conditioned to it.

879
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,240
Speaker 1: And I defy. I think if you're not nervous before

880
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: you get in the witness box, you're not properly prepared.

881
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:33,359
Speaker 1: I would be nervous before I got in the witness box,

882
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: but I due diligence. I'd do as much preparation as

883
00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:39,600
Speaker 1: I could before I got in there, and and do

884
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,839
Speaker 1: your best. And yeah, you're told not to bite back

885
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:46,280
Speaker 1: at the questions, just to answer the questions, but sometimes

886
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: it's hard. And the longer you've been in this business,

887
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,200
Speaker 1: the barrisss know your personality, know who you are, and

888
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: know how to push put push buttons. So but there

889
00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 1: is a bit of a bit of theater there. Homicide

890
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:06,040
Speaker 1: investigation generally, there's different cases and I hate it when

891
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: people ask me, you know, what's your hardest case or

892
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,439
Speaker 1: what case was your most important or yeah, because they're

893
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 1: all important. If you work a homicide that doesn't matter,

894
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 1: like the bloke you turned up and there's four people

895
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 1: at the funeral, of which you're one of them, more

896
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 1: the one that I turned up where there were seven people.

897
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: What's a homicide investigation that stayed with you, something that's

898
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 1: sort of changed you as a personal changed you the

899
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,320
Speaker 1: way that you look at life.

900
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, for me, it was always about children. So if

901
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 2: I investigated the murder of a child, that was always

902
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 2: stayed with me. And there was one in particular. So

903
00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 2: we've not mentioned this, but I've got a TV show

904
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:44,600
Speaker 2: in the UK and I sit down and I chat

905
00:45:44,640 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 2: with investigators and the only case we feature of mine

906
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:49,880
Speaker 2: is the very first one, and it was this, and

907
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:52,520
Speaker 2: it was probably the one that will always stay with me,

908
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 2: and it was it was quite high profile in the

909
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 2: UK at the time. Has got a soap opria called EastEnders,

910
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:00,759
Speaker 2: and it was a woman who was actress on there,

911
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:04,840
Speaker 2: and it got it got reported as a missing missing

912
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,000
Speaker 2: person's case came into us, and it came into us

913
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 2: on a Saturday, and very quickly we realized that there's this, this,

914
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 2: this isn't right. So there's things like she she suffered

915
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 2: from moting urine disease and she's allegedly she's gone off

916
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 2: with her two boys and she could just look after herself,

917
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,839
Speaker 2: like alone or two boys. And her husband had said

918
00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 2: she's left me and he then disappeared. So straight away,

919
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 2: I mean, you got the feeling for it and like this,

920
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 2: this isn't good and what you're hoping for is what

921
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 2: what we realized when we went into the house, he

922
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 2: had done a cleanup and there was signs of a

923
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 2: really violent attack in the kitchen, and he kind of

924
00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 2: clinging onto the hope that clearly some something's happened to

925
00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:51,440
Speaker 2: to Shah saying, but what what about the kids? That

926
00:46:51,480 --> 00:46:52,880
Speaker 2: could he have put them somewhere? So we're trying to

927
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 2: find the kids, go to family members, et cetera. So

928
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 2: you always clinging onto the hope that some something that

929
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 2: you an ideal. Well, with three of them live, but

930
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 2: you kind of you kind of condition to the fact

931
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 2: that someone someone's clearly been murdered by the crime scene

932
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 2: where are the boys? But by the by the by

933
00:47:08,280 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 2: a few by two days in we discovered that they

934
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 2: were all all be murdered and they were buried in

935
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 2: the garden. And then he had fled to the fled

936
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 2: to Africa, and just the brutal nature of those crimes,

937
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,840
Speaker 2: the way in which so for into one of the

938
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:26,120
Speaker 2: boys had defensive injuries, which which indicates that he knew

939
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 2: that his dad was attacked. I mean, it's just awful.

940
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:30,200
Speaker 1: It was a biological father.

941
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 2: Biological father. Yeah's killed his wife and two children, and

942
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 2: it's those kinds of cases and that and that for me,

943
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 2: just the just the brutal nature of it, the circumstances

944
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 2: in way, the way in which we the investigation went,

945
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:47,520
Speaker 2: it was just it was just one of those ones

946
00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,680
Speaker 2: that will always we make I'm not I'm not an

947
00:47:50,680 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 2: emotional person normally, but on the TV show, I actually

948
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,759
Speaker 2: lost it at one point when I was I was.

949
00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,040
Speaker 2: I sat with my mate, who reinvestigated it with and

950
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 2: we were talking through It's almost as if we were

951
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,320
Speaker 2: we were reliving it. And I've never spoken about it before.

952
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,240
Speaker 2: I've spoken about it in terms of I was involved

953
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 2: in this investigation, but never to the depth that we

954
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:14,239
Speaker 2: were going into and we were almost reliving it. And

955
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:16,080
Speaker 2: it was that moment where the phone call come through

956
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:18,200
Speaker 2: from the crime scene to us that the three of

957
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 2: them were in the in this grave, and it hit

958
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 2: me and I held up and I was like I

959
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 2: couldn't speak. I couldn't speak, and you know, it's like

960
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 2: you don't.

961
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:32,920
Speaker 1: We don't, we don't know, And it was it just

962
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 1: shows you that deep down you're carrying these things and.

963
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,120
Speaker 2: When you when you when you dip down into it

964
00:48:39,160 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 2: and you start to open up that yeah, you must

965
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:43,840
Speaker 2: be carrying so much that you just you just bury.

966
00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 2: And as I say, for me, it was always about

967
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 2: children and a few cases I've got where where you

968
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 2: see did their body or at the post morton for

969
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 2: the child, and it's hard.

970
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,800
Speaker 1: I look, I hear what you're saying, Steve, and I

971
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: know when I was in homicide there was emotional stuff

972
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,360
Speaker 1: like that when you step away from it and you

973
00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:08,080
Speaker 1: relive it that way, if I do talks or I

974
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 1: see the family, victims are different different things. And it's

975
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,359
Speaker 1: almost like you're out of the cops and you've let

976
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,120
Speaker 1: your guard down now like in the cops where you

977
00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:20,480
Speaker 1: had to be rock solid, and I still you know,

978
00:49:20,920 --> 00:49:23,320
Speaker 1: I'm a tough guy. I'm still rock solid. Just because

979
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 1: I'm out of the cops doesn't soften me up, but

980
00:49:25,680 --> 00:49:29,160
Speaker 1: it gives you a perspective what you actually saw and

981
00:49:29,760 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 1: the emotions that you went through, and I think, yeah,

982
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 1: I understand where you're coming from, and I know how

983
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:37,359
Speaker 1: it can hit you that way, and you think, oh,

984
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 1: this is a strange reaction, this shouldn't be coming. But

985
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 1: I've said about homicide investigation, each part of the investigation

986
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 1: takes a little bit out of you and also adds

987
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 1: a little bit to you like you can't get. Sometimes

988
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 1: you do the just the on call response and the

989
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: homicide we call it the smoking gun type homicide where

990
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,879
Speaker 1: you're not heavily invested in it. That's pretty obvious what's

991
00:50:02,920 --> 00:50:05,719
Speaker 1: happened and solved, and the local police are dealing with it,

992
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 1: and you have just had a superficial overview of it.

993
00:50:08,760 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: But the ones that you actually pick up and run,

994
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 1: whether you're leading the investigation or part of the investigation team,

995
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 1: you always hold hold on to aspects of that, don't you.

996
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

997
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,799
Speaker 1: What was your coping mechanism? Twelve years in homicide, that's

998
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:26,840
Speaker 1: a long stint. How did you cope with the pressures

999
00:50:26,880 --> 00:50:29,320
Speaker 1: and the emotions that come with homicide investigation.

1000
00:50:29,960 --> 00:50:32,680
Speaker 2: I'm going to say something that probably resonates for you,

1001
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:39,960
Speaker 2: and probably every murder detective is just compartmentalize. You don't

1002
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:44,799
Speaker 2: actually deal with anything. You just bury it. So, yeah,

1003
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 2: you're seeing grewsome things you're dealing with. For me, the

1004
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 2: hardest thing wasn't ever the dead bodies and at apartment children.

1005
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 2: I always found it difficult, but it wasn't. It wasn't

1006
00:50:55,520 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 2: the dead bodies because you build up their resilience to

1007
00:50:57,560 --> 00:50:59,600
Speaker 2: that throughout your career. To me, it was always the

1008
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 2: traum the family. I found the hardest thing to deal

1009
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:06,399
Speaker 2: with and dealing with their grief. But but you don't

1010
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:08,359
Speaker 2: dwell on it. You just push it aside, you bury

1011
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 2: it down, and then you just focus on your investigation

1012
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 2: and your job. You've got to do and and and

1013
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:15,440
Speaker 2: and and and if that's your focus, if that's what

1014
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 2: you're thinking about, you can I mean, I used to

1015
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:22,279
Speaker 2: think it was actually when when I when I I

1016
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 2: wrote a book, and it was I was I was

1017
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:30,919
Speaker 2: reflecting on on my career, and I I always thought

1018
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 2: I was brave in as much as I did. I

1019
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 2: just I don't deal with that. I don't think about that.

1020
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:40,360
Speaker 2: I just bury it. But what I came to realize

1021
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 2: was is it's actually I think it's braver to deal

1022
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 2: with your feelings. So I did a eulogy at my

1023
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:49,720
Speaker 2: dad's funeral, and it was it was basically me writing

1024
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,279
Speaker 2: down I felt about my dad and talking about it.

1025
00:51:52,360 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 2: And I don't talk about my feelings. I don't. I don't.

1026
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 2: I don't talk about that kind of thing. And I

1027
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:01,640
Speaker 2: was an absolute mess. And my sisters, who you women

1028
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 2: are much better, I think, deal and they deal with it.

1029
00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,759
Speaker 2: They had to, they had to help me through. And

1030
00:52:09,920 --> 00:52:12,800
Speaker 2: it's because I don't. I don't have the I was

1031
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 2: almost like, I don't have the ability to deal with

1032
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:19,600
Speaker 2: feelings because I don't. I've got no I've got in

1033
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 2: my armory. I can't. I can't deal with my feelings.

1034
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,239
Speaker 2: I just ignore them and bury them. And when I

1035
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 2: have to, that's where I get caught up. And so

1036
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:28,919
Speaker 2: when I'm doing the TV show and I'm talking about

1037
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 2: that crime, I'm talking about feelings and that I can't do.

1038
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 2: I can't do with that. So so where I used

1039
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 2: to think that was the brave thing to do, I

1040
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:39,879
Speaker 2: actually think the bravest and probably the most sensible thing

1041
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 2: to do is deal with them. And because all of them,

1042
00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 2: as the occur, exactly because will they can they come

1043
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 2: back and bite you on the ARSEMA and I don't

1044
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:49,680
Speaker 2: think I will. I don't think I've got PTSD or

1045
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:53,279
Speaker 2: anything like that. But you never know, you never quite

1046
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 2: know how something's going to come out later on.

1047
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 1: Well, Steve, you've made me think about myself there on

1048
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 1: THEES and the stuff that you're confronted with as a

1049
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 1: homicide detective. And I didn't deal with anything during the

1050
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,560
Speaker 1: course of my career. I just kept Okay, well, there's

1051
00:53:09,560 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 1: another job, and you'd throw yourself deeper and deeper and

1052
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 1: deeper in there. And I suppose we're the lucky ones

1053
00:53:14,640 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 1: that we got out there that we didn't have the

1054
00:53:16,520 --> 00:53:20,560
Speaker 1: you know, didn't fall apart during the career. But yeah,

1055
00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,880
Speaker 1: you step away and I do what you say resonates

1056
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: with me. I'm not going to make any confessions here, Steve.

1057
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 1: You'll let you make the confessions about showing emotion. How

1058
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,880
Speaker 1: dare you? But yeah, when you step away from it,

1059
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:37,359
Speaker 1: it does give you time to reflect and that those

1060
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:42,320
Speaker 1: emotions can surface. What are you doing post career? It

1061
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:45,799
Speaker 1: sounds like you've got some exciting stuff to do. You've

1062
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 1: two books, You've done the Murder Investigation Team, and you

1063
00:53:49,360 --> 00:53:54,000
Speaker 1: did another one on Jack the Ripper, yeah, so it's pure.

1064
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,880
Speaker 2: Everything's done now planned at all in the slightest. So

1065
00:53:57,960 --> 00:53:59,520
Speaker 2: when I was leaving the police, you know, well stored

1066
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:02,240
Speaker 2: about this you making and how that's really important as detective.

1067
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 2: What my idea was was, I when I left the police,

1068
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:06,719
Speaker 2: I was going to set up a training company to

1069
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 2: go into go into businesses and help train their staff

1070
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:12,120
Speaker 2: around decision making and the processes that I used and

1071
00:54:12,239 --> 00:54:15,319
Speaker 2: how that can be adapted to business. And everything i'd

1072
00:54:15,400 --> 00:54:17,800
Speaker 2: read was if you're going to position yourself as an expert,

1073
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 2: write a book. So I started to write a book

1074
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:22,400
Speaker 2: that supported that, but it was, it was, it was,

1075
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 2: it was. It just wasn't working. So I ended up right,

1076
00:54:25,360 --> 00:54:27,280
Speaker 2: it was it was, these are how to investigate murders

1077
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 2: and this is how I can be business, and it

1078
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:30,920
Speaker 2: was trying to be two different things. So I thought, well,

1079
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:33,720
Speaker 2: let's just write a book about how we investigate murders

1080
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 2: and actual fact, in the UK no one had ever

1081
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,560
Speaker 2: written a book like this, so so and what had

1082
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 2: happened since doing that. It's kind of dragged me down

1083
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 2: the true crime route, which I wasn't planning at all,

1084
00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:48,240
Speaker 2: and the book has led to speaking gigs the speeding

1085
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,799
Speaker 2: gigs led to a TV show, so I did. That's

1086
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:54,359
Speaker 2: just finished in the UK. We did two seasons, twenty

1087
00:54:54,440 --> 00:55:00,279
Speaker 2: episodes Secrets of a Murder Detective. And now to set

1088
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 2: up a business where there's a big gap in the

1089
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:04,400
Speaker 2: market where you've got all these detectives over here with

1090
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 2: all these experiences and stories, etc. And you've got TV

1091
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 2: companies who want to use them on the TV shows,

1092
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 2: but there's no one in the middle introducing them. So

1093
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:16,879
Speaker 2: I've set up this company to do that as kind

1094
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,759
Speaker 2: of like a setting up a database for detectives willing

1095
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,480
Speaker 2: to go on TV show. So that's my next project

1096
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 2: I'm quite excited about, so we'll see where that goes.

1097
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 1: I think it's great that you've found found your legs

1098
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,080
Speaker 1: after leaving the police, because it's confronting at first. But

1099
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:34,200
Speaker 1: if you've got something that you can be passionate about

1100
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 1: that you're pear to be what you're doing now, it

1101
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:39,960
Speaker 1: makes moving on a lot easier. And that's interesting what

1102
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 1: you said about the book. As I was reading your book,

1103
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:45,799
Speaker 1: I'm thinking I haven't read a book like this from

1104
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:50,680
Speaker 1: a homicide detective talking about homicide investigations. So good on you.

1105
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:55,240
Speaker 1: I think it's great to me. You look like regardless

1106
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 1: of the fact that you've lost your hair, but that

1107
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:59,719
Speaker 1: happens to the best of us. You look like you've

1108
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 1: got a sense of humor. You look like you've come

1109
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:04,759
Speaker 1: out relatively unscathed. But yeah, full credit to you for

1110
00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:06,319
Speaker 1: the work that you've you've done.

1111
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 2: Thanks Verne. No, I appreciate that we're obviously very very similar.

1112
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 2: I think our attitudes are. I don't think we disagreed

1113
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:18,840
Speaker 2: on anything today. And and when when you've got something

1114
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:21,520
Speaker 2: that you're so passionate about, for me, it's murder. Where'd

1115
00:56:21,520 --> 00:56:24,239
Speaker 2: you channel that? I mean, very difficult to There's not

1116
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:28,920
Speaker 2: there's nothing. There's no direct comparison in the in the

1117
00:56:28,960 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 2: civilian world of I investigate murders, I don't want to do.

1118
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 2: I don't want to do corporate investigations. That's not that's

1119
00:56:35,719 --> 00:56:37,799
Speaker 2: not going to flow boat. I don't want to do security.

1120
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:39,840
Speaker 2: It's like, well, what am I going to do? That?

1121
00:56:40,239 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 2: Can I can keep keep just talking for hours and

1122
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:46,000
Speaker 2: hours about the subject I'm passionate about, and who's going

1123
00:56:46,040 --> 00:56:47,319
Speaker 2: to want to listen to that? I mean my far

1124
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 2: and out caol them to death? No one ever, no

1125
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 2: one ever wants to do it.

1126
00:56:51,080 --> 00:56:54,839
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. Well, well look let's take stock of us.

1127
00:56:55,400 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: You've you've written the book going murder investigation term and

1128
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 1: I'm sitting here in the pod car studio with signs

1129
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 1: up saying I catch killers. Yeah we've really let it, but.

1130
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:09,360
Speaker 2: No, I wited to move on.

1131
00:57:09,520 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 1: Really though, I understand where you're coming from, Steve, and

1132
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 1: I've really enjoyed the chat. And yeah, I can tell

1133
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:18,040
Speaker 1: the type of a cop you were and type of

1134
00:57:18,080 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 1: homicide detective, and I would have liked to work with you.

1135
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 1: It would have been would have been good and lightwise. Likewise,

1136
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:26,439
Speaker 1: I share your passion for things, So all the best

1137
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 1: for the future.

1138
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 2: Thanks really appreciate mate, Thanks for having me on. Cheers.

1139
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 1: I know I say it a lot, but I do

1140
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: enjoy talking to real homicide detectives, and I reckon Steve

1141
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:43,000
Speaker 1: Ko was a definite real homicide detective. I like the

1142
00:57:43,040 --> 00:57:44,960
Speaker 1: way he thinks, I like the way he goes about

1143
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 1: his business, and utmost respect for him. Twelve years in

1144
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:51,920
Speaker 1: the murder investigation team in Scotland. Yard He's done the

1145
00:57:52,200 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 1: done the hard yards, and I really enjoyed speaking to him.

1146
00:57:55,800 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 1: And I'm not amazed because I always thought it was

1147
00:57:58,160 --> 00:58:02,360
Speaker 1: a case. How similar the way they approached their investigations

1148
00:58:02,440 --> 00:58:03,760
Speaker 1: after what we do over here.

1149
00:58:03,840 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 2: But it was a great chat