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Speaker 1: H'm i Boris, and this is straight talk, and I'm

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Speaker 1: going to say something you could give in trouble. But

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Speaker 1: Zara Sola, welcome to straight talk.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: You're the co founder of the Dahlias and journalists of

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Speaker 1: course and author. What were you doing before the dahli OsO?

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Speaker 2: I was very interested in politics, so I had decided

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Speaker 2: I was going to try and interrogate politics from every direction,

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Speaker 2: from every perspective distinct at Sky.

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Speaker 1: News bit opposite of Dahlios.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it was fascinating. I learned a lot. Then

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Speaker 2: I worked in government relations, and then I worked for

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Speaker 2: a politician very briefly, and through all of those experiences,

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Speaker 2: I learned that there was one thing missing. No one

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Speaker 2: knew how to talk to young people. Oftentimes when people

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Speaker 2: say youth news to written in terms of like a

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Speaker 2: you shitty entitled young people. Ours was we're going to

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Speaker 2: speak across from you. We're not going to speak down

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Speaker 2: to you, or speak in your language, something that they'll

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Speaker 2: be able to understand, digest and remember.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, people in your I don't know we millennials would.

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Speaker 2: They're called naturally gen Z. Gen Z just on the cast,

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Speaker 2: still claiming it you.

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Speaker 1: Like me on the cusp of my cancer basically. But

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Speaker 1: Zarah Soler, welcome to straight talk.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Now, I know it's a soft spot, but I have

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Speaker 1: had your co founder and.

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Speaker 2: He is it's a saw point, it really is.

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Speaker 1: Sorry I had him in here first, but I can't remember.

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Speaker 1: I think, like you can take this back to him.

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Speaker 1: But as I recall, he was so desperate that he

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Speaker 1: just kept sending text and like I thought, he was

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Speaker 1: the only person there's any person involved in the business,

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Speaker 1: but he never mentioned you.

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Speaker 2: Well, then I'll go through this entire podcast recording without mentioning.

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Speaker 1: Here's yours, here's your chance to square up. You're the

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Speaker 1: co founder of the Daly Oz and journalist of course

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Speaker 1: and author, and welcome to the Darlows Studio. Okay, let's

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Speaker 1: just tour. Sarah Sidler obviously got an architecture somewhere in

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Speaker 1: your family, because said, we're very close to very famous

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Speaker 1: Harris Sidler building. Actually, yes, just down the road here,

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Speaker 1: which stands out like a saw thumb because it's the

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Speaker 1: tallest billing and probably all a Darlinghurst, but a wonderful building.

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Speaker 1: To be honest with you, I actually like the building

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Speaker 1: a lot that's unique. I wouldn't want to live I

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Speaker 1: don't think I couldn't live there. It's for some people, yes,

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Speaker 1: some people. Does a family like yours, like you know,

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Speaker 1: there's a growing up with a side of the name.

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Speaker 1: Does that? Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

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Speaker 2: Well? I think you're aware of it. Yeah, No, I

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Speaker 2: think people presume. It's always the first question I get,

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Speaker 2: are you related to Harry? And then they the next

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Speaker 2: one is that they presume I'm creative in some sense,

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Speaker 2: and I have to let them down slowly.

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Speaker 1: But you're an author, though I am a journal journalist,

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Speaker 1: a creative.

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Speaker 2: I like facts, and I like you know, pragmatic thinking,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know how well that is coupled with creativity.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't call myself a creative.

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Speaker 1: Person that you would call youself an artist?

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Speaker 2: No, I would not. That is certainly not my strong suit.

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Speaker 1: But journalism requires taking the facts and creating some sort

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Speaker 1: of verse that makes it interesting to read that because

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Speaker 1: faster ourselves correct, because facts of boring correct can be boring.

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Speaker 1: To mean, they can be boring, but if they're presented

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Speaker 1: a certain way, like in the Daily Os. The Daily Os.

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Speaker 1: So what were you doing before the Daily.

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Speaker 2: Olso I was. I mean, it feels like a million

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Speaker 2: years ago, but it was only a couple of years ago.

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Speaker 2: I was very interested in politics, so I had decided

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Speaker 2: straight out of school, I was going to try and

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Speaker 2: interrogate politics from every direction, from every perspective. So di

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Speaker 2: distint at Sky News, I was the person that would

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Speaker 2: attack micro I mean it was fascinating. I learned a lot.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't studied journalism, so I learned, you know, tricks

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Speaker 2: of the trade.

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Speaker 1: There, sort of like an internship type of thing.

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Speaker 2: Was yeah, but I did it for quite a while,

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Speaker 2: for about a year and a half, and was doing

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Speaker 2: the four am shift, learning a lot about all the guests,

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Speaker 2: how things were done. Then I worked in government relations

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Speaker 2: for a peak body that was kind of in the

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Speaker 2: health space, so I learned how you can relate to

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Speaker 2: government there. And then I worked for a politician very briefly,

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Speaker 2: and through all of those experiences, I learned that there

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Speaker 2: was one thing no one knew how to talk to

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Speaker 2: young people.

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Speaker 1: Which is sort of the daily os as sticking that's weird,

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Speaker 1: that's your territory. Yeah, well I don't want to go

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Speaker 1: there just yet, though, because you're still pretty young.

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Speaker 2: How old are you now twenty seven?

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Speaker 1: Well, how were you guys when you set up alongside

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Speaker 1: your he who must not be How old were you

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Speaker 1: then when you said the dahi os I.

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Speaker 2: Had just turned twenty?

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Speaker 1: I believe yeah, because it seems to be quite a

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Speaker 1: while ago.

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Speaker 2: Now, yeah, it was a while ago. But for a

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Speaker 2: very long time, it was just a side hustle. It

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Speaker 2: wasn't a business. There were kind of no business aspirations.

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Speaker 2: Wanted to tell our friends the news did that for

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Speaker 2: many years, no one particularly paid attention. It was only

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Speaker 2: during COVID that we then were able to grow it

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Speaker 2: and begin to commercialize it and make it a business.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so take me back to the let's call it

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Speaker 1: the side hustle. Where were you working at that?

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Speaker 2: I mean, I was in various jobs through that time

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Speaker 2: because it was so long, But the last one I

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Speaker 2: was working as a lobbyist. So I was working with businesses,

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Speaker 2: consulting with businesses to then engage government and engage the

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Speaker 2: cross bench, and that was my day job. I was

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Speaker 2: very much on a clear trajectory there, but then this

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Speaker 2: just blew up out of nowhere and I couldn't ignore

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Speaker 2: it anymore.

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Speaker 1: But a lobbyist. I've got a twenty ye I mean.

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Speaker 2: At that point though, so that was only a couple

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Speaker 2: of years back, So we did it for a long time.

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Speaker 2: It only became the job in twenty twenty two, so yeah,

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Speaker 2: back then.

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Speaker 1: So, but normally a lobbyist, I mean clearly you're confident person.

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Speaker 1: You must be a confident person because a lobbyist, generally speaking,

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Speaker 1: you've probably been a politician for twenty five years, you've retired,

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Speaker 1: and you've got all these sort of network web people

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Speaker 1: you know, in a various department, could be the Department

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Speaker 1: of Defense, for argument's sake, you might've been the Defense

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Speaker 1: minister or foreign affairs somewhere with that, and you decided

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Speaker 1: to go into private enterprise and become a lobbyist, and

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Speaker 1: you're being lobbied by I don't know, some of the

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Speaker 1: big American jet makers or something of that, and makes

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Speaker 1: sense ye in your twenties.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't quite fit the bill. A young woman.

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Speaker 1: You don't know, how did you do that? Like? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: how'd you did you? How'd you weag one way say

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be a lobbyist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it didn't quite happen that way. I met various

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Speaker 2: people through the roles that I had been in previously,

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Speaker 2: and one of those people had set up her own

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Speaker 2: lobbying firm, and her stick per se was that she

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Speaker 2: wanted to do lobbying differently and that she wanted to

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Speaker 2: lobby for companies. You know, that she believed in that

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Speaker 2: had a value add and that she was able to

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Speaker 2: create something that was she got at that point tripartisan.

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Speaker 2: So it wasn't just a coalition lobbyist, it wasn't just

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Speaker 2: a labor lobbyist. It wasn't a cross bench lobbyist. It

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Speaker 2: was everything. And so I was sold on that, and

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Speaker 2: she said, come in and just help us build this

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Speaker 2: thing off the ground. And so I was one of

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Speaker 2: the first few employees. I learned so much. I mean

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Speaker 2: I was oftentimes the only woman in the room, about

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Speaker 2: forty years their junior. But I learned, and I got

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Speaker 2: to see up close what power looks like and how

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Speaker 2: it comes to be. And I think learned a lot

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Speaker 2: of lessons being in that job.

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Speaker 1: That's very interesting. I would just want to turn back

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Speaker 1: one page. So are we talking when you said a

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Speaker 1: different way doing things, not just the triparthipe piece, that

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Speaker 1: is having everybody on side. But are we talking about

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Speaker 1: a process that is more connected to ethics, So an

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Speaker 1: ethical way of lobbying or lobbying about ethical matters.

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Speaker 2: The latter more so, I mean both. It was about that,

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Speaker 2: you know, we weren't just going to lobby for anyone.

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Speaker 2: I think oftentimes it's the highest bidder and you go

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Speaker 2: with them if they need help. When this firm was

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Speaker 2: set up, the idea was that you know, you can

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Speaker 2: choose who you work with, and that you can do

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Speaker 2: pro bono work, and you can do all of these

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Speaker 2: things to really redefine the way that companies and not

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Speaker 2: for profits and whoever it is, reaches government because it

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Speaker 2: is so difficult to reach government and to reach the

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Speaker 2: opposition and to reach the cross bench.

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Speaker 1: I've wondered about that, and I know it's a little

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Speaker 1: bit off your off the daily other topic, but if

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Speaker 1: you don't mind, just indulgent for seconds. So I've often

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Speaker 1: wondered about lobbyists who could also be a cork pr

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Speaker 1: type organization, but they're guns for hire, So one minute

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Speaker 1: they're in the liberal party area and the next men

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Speaker 1: they're in the labor or that could be in the Greens.

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Speaker 1: What do you think about that? Process. I mean, obviously

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Speaker 1: you do that in the tribe, in the tripartisan process,

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Speaker 1: but equally you can choose who you don't want to

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Speaker 1: lobby for. Let thet's say someone comes on and get

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Speaker 1: ask you to lobby for gun gun licenses, not go

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Speaker 1: and control a gun, and let's say it's something you

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Speaker 1: are against for mistake. Those people who take on those

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Speaker 1: jobs are bigger organizations, the guns for hire, how do

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Speaker 1: they how do you think they justify the the end

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Speaker 1: the ends that they're trying to chieve for their particular

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Speaker 1: custom or client.

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Speaker 2: I think it's really hard. I think that no one

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Speaker 2: goes into it thinking that they're going to end up

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Speaker 2: lobbying for guns or for what or exactly whatever it is.

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Speaker 2: Those are the companies that end up having the most money.

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Speaker 2: And I think that it is one of the biggest

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Speaker 2: issues with the industry is that not enough people have

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Speaker 2: these kind of ethical boundaries that they will put down

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Speaker 2: in de market. I was so young in my career

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Speaker 2: that I was not the person making the calls at all,

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Speaker 2: but I knew from that point that it was just

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Speaker 2: a very transactional industry to be in and that that

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Speaker 2: was not really where I saw my future or what

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Speaker 2: I wanted. But I think that these people just see

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Speaker 2: it as their day job like anyone else, and that

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Speaker 2: that is it's their job to work with companies, to

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Speaker 2: connect them to government and if they don't agree with them.

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Speaker 2: So what it's a very challenging area to be in.

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Speaker 1: Is but does it have Can it be justified in

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Speaker 1: a way by saying that everyone's entitled to a hearing,

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Speaker 1: a fair hearing at government level? So you, sir, are

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Speaker 1: entitled to have a fair hearing between all the parties

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Speaker 1: in relation to what your thing you're trying to prosecute,

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Speaker 1: could tobacco, whatever it is. And all I am is

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Speaker 1: a contect to those people. I'm not there making any

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Speaker 1: moral judgment on what you do either way, a bit

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Speaker 1: like lawyers, like person comes in committed the crime. It's

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Speaker 1: got to be, you know, the right to be represented

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Speaker 1: is the thing. Advocacy is the thing sort of innocent

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Speaker 1: to prove and guilty. That's that's one of our adversarial

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Speaker 1: concepts in this country. Is there any way you can

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Speaker 1: justify in the lobby program that type of activity that

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Speaker 1: toime mindset.

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Speaker 2: I get it, but I don't know if it holds

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Speaker 2: up because I think oftentimes it's just about who can

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Speaker 2: afford lobbyists, you know, like these not for profit and

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Speaker 2: the people that are trying to do good and trying

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Speaker 2: to get their matters hard. The reality is that it's

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Speaker 2: just a lot harder to find a lobbyist who will

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Speaker 2: pick up your case. And so I just think, you know,

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Speaker 2: I believe that everyone should have access. I guess to

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Speaker 2: government and you know, anyone, any company, any individual should

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Speaker 2: have access. But I think in reality it comes down

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Speaker 2: to who can hire a lobbyist and who can pay

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Speaker 2: for them, And usually it's not the people who are

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Speaker 2: out there doing the good stuff.

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Speaker 1: And how do you I mean, because it's a difficult territory,

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Speaker 1: even with your own business daily ls today it's a difficult,

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Speaker 1: difficult terror to work out what's good and what's bad.

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Speaker 1: I mean, like it's nearly bordering on how you're brought up,

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Speaker 1: perhaps even religious moraise into your world, like what were

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Speaker 1: you exposed to? And therefore I decide that is that's

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Speaker 1: a value judgment. I decide that's good and never I'm

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Speaker 1: happy with that, right, So that's not something as good.

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Speaker 1: It's against my own views on morality or ethics better word,

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Speaker 1: therefore I'm not going to do it. How do you?

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Speaker 1: How were you doing it? Then we'll talk a bit

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Speaker 1: later on about your business. But yeah, because you are

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Speaker 1: you an editor in chief? What if you call it

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Speaker 1: of the duk co founder now, but I mean who

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Speaker 1: I lead.

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Speaker 2: The editorial side lead it?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, good way of putting it. So therefore your own

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Speaker 1: business can have a certain direction in the way it goes.

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Speaker 1: What are the fact does that influence say, someone like

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Speaker 1: you in how you make these ethical judgments? What is

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Speaker 1: it you've been your childhood or someone who came who

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Speaker 1: came across during your life or is it just is

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Speaker 1: it social development more recently or social development from the

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Speaker 1: day you were a little kid.

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Speaker 2: Such a good question. I mean, I think it's changed

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Speaker 2: over time. I think back then, if we're taking the

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Speaker 2: lobbying example, I think it's a privilege to be able

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Speaker 2: to say no in your job and to be able

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Speaker 2: to push back. And the reality is that when you're

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Speaker 2: a junior, you know, when you're some on my age,

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Speaker 2: you ain't saying no to anyone you And like you know,

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Speaker 2: I often get criticized. People will write things about why

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Speaker 2: I worked at Sky News, I needed a job I

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Speaker 2: needed to learn the tricks of the trade, and I

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Speaker 2: think that oftentimes it is those experiences that will shape

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Speaker 2: the way you see the world and how you understand things. Today.

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Speaker 2: With the Daily OS, we have an amazing team of

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Speaker 2: sixteen incredible journalists and it's all together that we are

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Speaker 2: able to combine our lived experience, you know, our values,

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Speaker 2: everything and to create a direction that we're all really

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Speaker 2: proud of that we think represents you know, young Australia

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Speaker 2: more generally, not just my personal life experience or Sam's

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Speaker 2: personal life experience. Nothing is purely objective. We all come

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Speaker 2: to everything with a set of our own biases. But

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Speaker 2: I think it's through consultation, it's through working with a

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Speaker 2: team that we've been able to really set that vision

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Speaker 2: that we're all really proud of.

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Speaker 1: So does it become a consensus? Is the majority rules

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Speaker 1: or media put to a vote?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, if we're talking about the Daily Ohs

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Speaker 2: every morning, we have our journals who pitch stories and

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Speaker 2: pitch their angles, and we have a conversation about that.

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Speaker 2: All the editors talk about it and we negotiate a

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Speaker 2: line that we're all really happy with that the journalists

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Speaker 2: are comfortable with it is. It's always just a bit

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Speaker 2: of a conversation and not every time, well we get

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Speaker 2: at one hundred percent right. I think we need to

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Speaker 2: own up to the fact that we're all learning, but

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Speaker 2: we certainly try to make sure that it reflects where

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Speaker 2: we're all at.

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Speaker 1: When did you decide to What was it that may

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Speaker 1: got you decide that I'm going to do a side

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Speaker 1: also called it? Was it called the Daily Os? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's always been called that. So what was it that

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Speaker 1: made you and Sam make that decision?

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Speaker 2: It wasn't my decision, so Sam, he wrote on We

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Speaker 2: don't know if it was LinkedIn or Instagram. I can't

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Speaker 2: really remember saying I want to start something called the

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Speaker 2: Daily Os. It's going to be a news platform. That

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Speaker 2: was it, He said, Does anyone want to join me?

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Speaker 2: Apparently there was a really long line of people who responded.

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Speaker 1: Join me for what to work with me or to

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Speaker 1: do it?

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Speaker 2: There was like nothing else to it. He and I

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Speaker 2: had community connections we'd never met. I had a whole

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Speaker 2: lot of friends send me it. I was the only

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Speaker 2: person who responded. We went for coffee and that day

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Speaker 2: we created what is now TDA. But back then it

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Speaker 2: was just how can we do things differently. He comes

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Speaker 2: from a news family, news obsessed. I've always been very curious.

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Speaker 2: We wanted to do it differently, see what we could

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Speaker 2: do in that little cafe, and by day we decided,

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Speaker 2: let's give it a shot. We don't know what this

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Speaker 2: will be, we don't know where it will end up,

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Speaker 2: but it's worth trying, you know.

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Speaker 1: I said, a little business called business bullets, and I

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Speaker 1: did it with Bill Jeffries, who's one of the producers

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Speaker 1: of the ben Fordham Show today, and we did it.

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Speaker 1: We quite like, we'll talk about your formatting a bit later,

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Speaker 1: but I thought it was a great great to have

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Speaker 1: a format for business owners, business bullets like just you know,

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Speaker 1: what's what do you need to know? I have to

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Speaker 1: do it. It was very ordinary, terribly and successful. We

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Speaker 1: run for about two years, cost me bloody fortune. In

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Speaker 1: the end I said, well it's not working for and

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Speaker 1: then he went off to work for ben Fordham. He

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Speaker 1: took James Willis's spot into ben Fordham's office and on

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Speaker 1: the QGB show, our bent was very right upon logics.

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Speaker 1: For some Will's very very very right, very I don't

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Speaker 1: know if you know Will, but his dad's lawyer I

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Speaker 1: know his dad because his dad' law for Max represents

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Speaker 1: me in some matters. But it was right down the

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Speaker 1: other end of the spectrum to where you guys are,

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Speaker 1: and we'll talk about that in the moment. But I

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Speaker 1: was extraordinarily unsuccessful at it. It just didn't work, and

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Speaker 1: I was funding it myself and I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: go out to get could be bothered go and find

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Speaker 1: investors and stuff like that. So I just we still exist,

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Speaker 1: but we don't do anything with it. And I just remembered.

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Speaker 1: I just you just remind him of it, a reminder

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Speaker 1: of how I sunk on about two hundred fifty grand.

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Speaker 2: Down always worth a shot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, wasn't. Actually, we don't think about it. You want

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Speaker 1: to buy it as available business bullys, but you're gonna

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Speaker 1: have to change the whole direction. But anyway, let's get

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Speaker 1: back to you more importantly. So you sort of responded

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Speaker 1: to a call out. Yeah, that was it effectively. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I had no idea where But did you know about

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Speaker 1: did you know about where his biases were? Knew nothing

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Speaker 1: about him, But did you see you from a community.

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Speaker 2: We're connections with mutual connections, had never met him. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I was like your name seems familiar, but that was it.

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Speaker 2: We'd never met. I knew nothing about him, I knew

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Speaker 2: nothing about what he did, what he wanted to do,

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Speaker 2: and we met and it was just like got on

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Speaker 2: like a house on fire, straight up, straight up, very

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Speaker 2: clear that.

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Speaker 1: So you started doing side hustle, Yeah, what's the first thing?

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Speaker 1: What's the first thing you did?

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Speaker 2: We tried to build out a canvar template. It was

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Speaker 2: just website, no, just a template for what we were

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Speaker 2: going to post. So we were like, we need it

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Speaker 2: to be engaging. We know young people give a ship,

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Speaker 2: but they're not engaging why. We think part of it

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Speaker 2: is that visually it's so boring to read the news.

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Speaker 2: So we built out something that was really colorful. And

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Speaker 2: that was the first thing we did. While sitting in

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Speaker 2: that cafe. On the same day that we decided we

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Speaker 2: were going to do it, we started posting five Instagram

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Speaker 2: stories just on the little stories thing that vanished after

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Speaker 2: twenty four hours. We did that every day for about

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Speaker 2: three years before and after our jobs. No one cared,

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Speaker 2: no one looked at her, no one particularly bothered to

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Speaker 2: read it. But it was a great training ground for us.

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Speaker 2: We learnt so much through it. And I think the

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Speaker 2: consistency was building habit and it was a great lesson

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Speaker 2: for us.

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Speaker 1: So if we just go back a step in on

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Speaker 1: on what you thought wasn't working or it didn't work

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Speaker 1: with others, that is as boring the presentation is boring.

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Speaker 1: Let's say the competitors. Yeah, you know, it's boring in

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Speaker 1: that the way they they present us. There's stories and

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Speaker 1: it's all digital these days, and I presume you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: have been making an opinion relative to the actual newspaper.

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Speaker 2: No it Yeah, I mean the boring thing is just

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Speaker 2: a small part of it. But we thought that it

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Speaker 2: was just not matching the way that young people were

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Speaker 2: consuming that because I was a young person and I

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Speaker 2: had friends who I you know, it was born out

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Speaker 2: of so many conversations with friends. You know. I would

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Speaker 2: have friends who would say, let me know what I

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Speaker 2: need to know about X y Z because I have

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Speaker 2: a date tonight, And so they were curious. There was

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Speaker 2: something in there that they were like, I want to

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Speaker 2: know what's happening. But there was a step that was missing.

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Speaker 2: They weren't going out to actually find that news themselves.

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Speaker 2: They were coming to me to ask for it because

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Speaker 2: they knew that I was someone that was always news obsessed,

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Speaker 2: and so we became obsessed with that what is the

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Speaker 2: missing part there? If we know young people are curious,

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Speaker 2: we know they want to learn about the world, why

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Speaker 2: aren't they And so, you know, the solution, or at

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Speaker 2: least the hypothesis back then, was that there were a

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Speaker 2: couple of things. One, it was the way that the

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Speaker 2: news itself was written. We thought that there was a

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Speaker 2: lot of assumed knowledge that if you didn't grow up

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Speaker 2: with the Australian or the Cinny Morning Herald on your

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Speaker 2: kitchen bench at home, how are you to know what

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Speaker 2: a leadership's bill was. You know, it was always written

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Speaker 2: about but never quite explained. And so we took this

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Speaker 2: idea that we needed to really step back, explain the news,

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Speaker 2: explain the concent and make people feel like they were

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Speaker 2: along for the ride, not coming in at the tenth spot.

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Speaker 2: And then the second part of it was also, yeah,

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Speaker 2: as I said, just the way it looked and it

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Speaker 2: felt and where it appeared. Back then, people weren't doing

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Speaker 2: social media and news. Those were two very distinct concepts.

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Speaker 2: Social media was for sharing photos of your avocado toast.

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Speaker 2: News was for a website or for a physical newspaper,

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Speaker 2: and we said, let's marry the.

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Speaker 1: Two canva is about making it look pretty or not pretty.

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Speaker 1: So shit were done, you know, like digestible, correct more interesting, color,

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Speaker 1: you know, shapes makes it more interesting. How did you

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Speaker 1: know that being a news obsessed person, apart from people

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Speaker 1: not being able to understand the news because they didn't

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Speaker 1: know what a spill was, for example, and maybe they

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Speaker 1: never got brought up like that, perhaps you did. You

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Speaker 1: got brought up there the way someone in your household

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Speaker 1: talked about that you're and apart from wanting to address

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Speaker 1: that issue, how did you know that people? Did you

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Speaker 1: do a survey?

436
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,520
Speaker 2: I mean, like just certainly not that would have taken

437
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 2: far more foresight than we ever had. Like it was

438
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,960
Speaker 2: just it was really just born out of personal experience.

439
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 2: It was conversations with friends. There was a survey would

440
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,440
Speaker 2: have implied that there was some sort of business case

441
00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 2: to be made, which at that time there just purely wasn't.

442
00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 2: It was just we think, we have a gut feel

443
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,120
Speaker 2: that this is what young people will want. Let's give

444
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:27,399
Speaker 2: it a shot. And it turned out to.

445
00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 1: Be right, which helps so you went different. Yeah, yeah,

446
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 1: well friends yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what we want. Tell

447
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 1: me about what because I'm going to dinner and we

448
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,479
Speaker 1: might end up discussing this with this dude or whatever

449
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:43,480
Speaker 1: my friend and this is relevant, this is current news,

450
00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:44,879
Speaker 1: but I don't know what the fuck to talk about,

451
00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 1: So can help me, addie.

452
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,640
Speaker 2: Yep, and here we go. We will give them ten slides,

453
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,680
Speaker 2: five slides, something that they'll be able to understand, digest,

454
00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 2: be able to access and remember. And it's written in

455
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,400
Speaker 2: their language. It's not in a condescending tone. Oftentimes when

456
00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:01,480
Speaker 2: people say youth news, it's written in terms of like

457
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,399
Speaker 2: a you shitty entitled young people, ours was, We're going

458
00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 2: to speak across from you. We're not going to speak

459
00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 2: down to you. We'll speak in your language, and they go,

460
00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:12,160
Speaker 2: you can. You don't have to spend hours reading the news.

461
00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:14,280
Speaker 2: We'll give you what you need to know. And that's

462
00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 2: what we've done since DAYTT.

463
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 1: It's given that you're in that cohort of people. You

464
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,720
Speaker 1: said something really interesting entitled what do you say about

465
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:29,640
Speaker 1: that phrase? People in your I don't know, millennials whatever

466
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:30,000
Speaker 1: they're called.

467
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 2: Actually gen Z, gen Z just on the cusp, still

468
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:33,760
Speaker 2: claiming it.

469
00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,600
Speaker 1: You like me, are on the cusp of Gemini cancer basically,

470
00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:43,959
Speaker 1: but have it. Yeah, it's a bit weird. But what

471
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 1: do you say about this concept of young people feely

472
00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:48,280
Speaker 1: they have a sense of entitlement.

473
00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 2: I think it's a lazy term. I think that it's

474
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,680
Speaker 2: a catch all, and I think that it is used

475
00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:55,919
Speaker 2: by people who don't spend a lot of time working

476
00:22:55,960 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 2: in the communities and with these you know, demographics, and

477
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,399
Speaker 2: with these groups, I think, sure there are going to

478
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 2: be some people in every single generation that are entitled.

479
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,360
Speaker 2: Think what GenZ actually is is misunderstood. And I think that,

480
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,880
Speaker 2: you know, it is difficult to understand what it has

481
00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 2: been like to grow up as a digital native, to

482
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 2: have your whole life online, to have everything you know

483
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 2: of the world on your mobile phone. And I think

484
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:24,160
Speaker 2: that oftentimes there's a disconnect between, at least generationally, between

485
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 2: understanding what that does to a young person and their

486
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,080
Speaker 2: view of the world and what we expect of young people.

487
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 2: And I think, you know, when we're told that young

488
00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 2: people are entitled, or that they can play entitled yeah,

489
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 2: or that they can place and that they don't care

490
00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 2: about the world, it's just about them, you know. I

491
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,960
Speaker 2: think that what we have done has shown the opposite

492
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 2: to be true. We can see that they are engaged,

493
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 2: we can see that they care. It just they haven't

494
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,160
Speaker 2: been communicated with in the right way. And I think

495
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:51,919
Speaker 2: that that just comes down to some of the differences

496
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:53,959
Speaker 2: in the ways that you know, we were brought up

497
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 2: and what our world looked like.

498
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: It's interesting, and I'm going to say something could give

499
00:23:58,119 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: into trouble. But I think people people who've retired and

500
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 1: have accumulated a bit of a few assets, maybe got

501
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 1: a valuable house that they bought really cheap forty fifty

502
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 1: years ago, and maybe because they put a lot of

503
00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 1: superinnoation way, because they're compelled to. I think they're entitled.

504
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 2: I would agree with that.

505
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 1: I think they think they're entitled. I think that there

506
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: is get off the road. This is my I've always

507
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 1: been to this park every time for the last forty years.

508
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:24,680
Speaker 1: I've always sat on this spot on the beach for

509
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 1: the last forty years. Who are these foreigners coming in?

510
00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 1: You're sitting on coming in at four o'clock, sitting up

511
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,920
Speaker 1: a barbecue and cooking lamb whatever they cook lamb something rather,

512
00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 1: or who's these people coming to my park? Or who's

513
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 1: this person walking the dog without a lead in this

514
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:42,400
Speaker 1: no lead area, and this dog's bigger than every other dog.

515
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I see these people really entitled.

516
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 2: I think there's entitlement in every generatorship, and I think

517
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 2: it's lazy to assign that to an entire generation. There's

518
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 2: no homogenous park with anyone. You know, like another twenty

519
00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 2: seven year old has a very different life to the

520
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 2: one that I lead. You can't possibly their common characteristics

521
00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,479
Speaker 2: and nothing else. Like, there are differences, and I think

522
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 2: they're often overlooked.

523
00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,920
Speaker 1: So do you think that part of your thing at

524
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:12,600
Speaker 1: Daios is to work that concept over? In other words,

525
00:25:13,200 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 1: work it to your advantage. So take take take the

526
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:19,760
Speaker 1: high ground in relation to this sense of entitlement and

527
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:23,760
Speaker 1: actually let people your readers who are younger people, let

528
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 1: them feel as though that you're talking to them as

529
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 1: not someone who thinks that they think they're entitled.

530
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, it's about making them feel empowered. That's

531
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 2: what our mission is. Hate that word impowered, I don't.

532
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,000
Speaker 2: It's in my mission statement, so I will just have

533
00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 2: to cross it on. Mooris doesn't like it.

534
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: No, I don't know, I know.

535
00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 2: I just want a better word that's all, Okay, I'll

536
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 2: think of a synonym and we'll come back to that.

537
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: But us out now. But like I empowered, like it

538
00:25:48,720 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: sort of gives them a sense of Does it give

539
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: me a sense of power? I don't know if we

540
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 1: need that.

541
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 2: No, I don't know that it gives yourself. I think

542
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 2: that it gives you a tool kit. Empowerment gives you

543
00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 2: options and a tool to engage with the world around you.

544
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 2: I think that often young people have felt like they

545
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 2: don't have that. They've been told a lot, you know,

546
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: they've had a lot of things projected onto them, but

547
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: they haven't felt empowered to engage back and have the tools,

548
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:15,959
Speaker 2: whether that be information, whether that be fact, whatever it is,

549
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,240
Speaker 2: to then go back with their own set of you know, worldviews.

550
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 2: And I think that's what about empowerment that we are

551
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:26,200
Speaker 2: trying to do, is just give them those tools through

552
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 2: news and through an understanding of the world around them.

553
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: Because the other generations are fed still fed the news

554
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:41,040
Speaker 1: largely through traditional the traditional entities that traditional news entities

555
00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: using digital programs obviously, but also some of them are

556
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: getting the news feed through Facebook and other places. And

557
00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 1: your generation's probably more Instagram, the way you write it

558
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: with the way you guys do you delivered through Instagram.

559
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: The people who are getting it delivered through Instagram, your

560
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 1: generation feel as I think, feel as though the people

561
00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 1: who are getting it through the more traditional formats think

562
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 1: they know more about it than the people who read

563
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: your stuff. There's a sense of empowerments for me is

564
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: not the word, but there's a sense of I know

565
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 1: more than you. I've been reading newspaper longer than you have.

566
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,719
Speaker 1: I've been reading about trouble in the Middle East, I've

567
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: been reading about China, reading about the United States a

568
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: lot longer than you. What would you know?

569
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean me, No, I don't even think

570
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 2: that's readers like. We've experienced that in the industry more

571
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 2: generally when we went to our first budget lock up,

572
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 2: an unnamed legacy publisher in this country set Oh it's

573
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: the TikTokers. I'm coming for your audience. But that's just

574
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:46,119
Speaker 2: what it is.

575
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:46,560
Speaker 1: Like.

576
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 2: There is always going to be this inherent bias to

577
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,280
Speaker 2: what was and the way that we have done things

578
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,120
Speaker 2: and against innovation and doing things differently, and we don't

579
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 2: think about it too much. We just keep going because

580
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 2: we know it's working.

581
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: But do you think your readers feel that too? So

582
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: like you're problems, I feel like, well they do. You

583
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: think they're asking themselves a question, is my information that

584
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:09,640
Speaker 1: I get from, say, someone like you, as good as

585
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 1: in terms of quality, or as accurate as what my

586
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 1: grandparents won't be getting by reading a newspaper.

587
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 2: I think there are not. I think there are very

588
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:22,280
Speaker 2: low levels of trust in institutions in this country, including

589
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 2: in media, and I think that young people are some

590
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 2: of the lowest trusting, you know, readers across the world,

591
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 2: and so I don't think that they're really trusting.

592
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 1: They trust the least correct.

593
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,199
Speaker 2: And that's what we're trying to rebuild. So that's what

594
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,920
Speaker 2: we're focused on. It's about rebuilding that trust. And so

595
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 2: I don't think that they're necessarily considering whether the information

596
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 2: they're getting is any different or any worse or any better.

597
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 2: I think it's just can they trust this? And the

598
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: answer is yes.

599
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: So you're you're trying to get them to rebuild trust

600
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: in your format as or.

601
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 2: You train media more generally.

602
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 1: Say, because I'll be honest here, I think just just

603
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: from where I can see, I think generally speaking, everyone

604
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: distrust media correct and everyone distrusts government. That's that's where

605
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 1: I feel I'm at today. I'm at that position like

606
00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 1: I don't know what I if I can trust what

607
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: I read, largely because particularly on my areas of expertise,

608
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: because I mean, I know that it's written by someone

609
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:22,719
Speaker 1: who probably doesn't know much about it a big as

610
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: I do. Because I mean, in the I'm in the

611
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: area government, I definitely don't trust. I don't distrust them.

612
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: I don't think that they're untrustworthy, but I don't necessarily

613
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: trust their judgment.

614
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:35,800
Speaker 2: Has that changed over time?

615
00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: Yes, because when I was younger, I was never taught

616
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 1: to challenge that. I just accepted what they did as

617
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 1: in trustworthy. But I also think that the individuals who

618
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: ran government were different to the individuals run government today.

619
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: I feel as are they're more committed in a career sense,

620
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 1: more committed committed to their cause as opposed to today.

621
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: I think it's I want to be in power interesting.

622
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: That's how I feel. I mean, and I'm not going

623
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 1: red or blue. I mean, you know, Bob Hawk and

624
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: Paul Keating were just as great as John Howard and

625
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: Peter Costill as far as I'm concerned in terms of policies,

626
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 1: policies that I had something that I don't have something

627
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 1: to do with it. I had some expertise in economy policy.

628
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 1: For argument's sake, I just think they're both red emblupe,

629
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: both fantastic. But I don't see the same outcomes today.

630
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: I don't see the great policy decisions even I don't

631
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: see the unpopular policies decisions. I don't see anybody prepare

632
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 1: to stand up and make an unpopular call and risking

633
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: risking it all because risking it all means they might

634
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: lose powers. That's and I feel I feel quite deflated

635
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: by that, And as a result of that, I therefore

636
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: become less likely to believe what any outlet will put out.

637
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: That is quoting one of these individuals.

638
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: Interesting because by definition do you trust? I don't know.

639
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: I have turn this back on you.

640
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: Now you're a journalist, What do I trust? Well, if

641
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: it comes to I don't trust anyone when it comes

642
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: to areas that I don't have a great knowledge base.

643
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: So if it's the war in Gaza, or the war

644
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:26,719
Speaker 1: in Ukraine or all the various thousands of skirmishes in Africa,

645
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 1: I don't trust any media because I don't know enough

646
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: about the topic, and I know that media can be

647
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: not misled, but can be directed and unless they give

648
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: both sides the story, and they give it really plainly.

649
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: But when it comes to areas of economics which I

650
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:45,719
Speaker 1: have a good understanding and other things that I have

651
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: a good understanding on, I only trust myself. I'll read

652
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: what they've got to say only because I need to

653
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: be relevant. I need to maintain my relevance. I need

654
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: to know what people are talking about. I need to

655
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: know what the narrative is. But in terms of making

656
00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 1: a judgment or around the narrative, or being convinced by

657
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 1: the narrative, or being influenced by the narrative, if as

658
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:08,360
Speaker 1: an area I have expertise in, I very rarely allow

659
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 1: it to influence me. And then in turn, I often

660
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 1: say things about the narrative which get me into trouble.

661
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 1: But it doesn't matter, you know, because I don't give

662
00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 1: a fuck. I don't care. I mean, like this show,

663
00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 1: I don't give a fuck. I mean I can say

664
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 1: what I want to, I can swear, I can do

665
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 1: whatever I want because it's my show. Like your paper,

666
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: like your your news outlet, you can say what you're

667
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: like I mean, within reason, you've probably got shareholders and

668
00:32:30,080 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 1: stuff that you have to be careful. You know one

669
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: of your share or who I know are just that

670
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: for But but generally speaking, I don't have to answer

671
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 1: to anybody except myself. So to answer your question, I

672
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 1: very rarely. Which one of the reasons I was really

673
00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:50,480
Speaker 1: keen to talk to you today is I want to

674
00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: find out where people are coming from, so that I

675
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: know what what light that your own personality and your

676
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: own leaves turning on the news that you're preparing or mark,

677
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: can you be convinced Zara is completely agnostic in relation

678
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,200
Speaker 1: to what she writes or what she co edits that's

679
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: the word. And because I think people's personalities, by definitition

680
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:19,160
Speaker 1: always going to get it get in the way of

681
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,280
Speaker 1: everything you write about. Because you write about everything, you

682
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: can't write about anything one particularly. You have to writ

683
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: about everything across the country, across the world. You know.

684
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: For example, I'm presuming that you're Jewish, so I wonder

685
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: to myself if I haven't read it, But I do,

686
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: I do. I do look at your stuff with Dahlios,

687
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,800
Speaker 1: not yours. I subscribe, I follow the Dahlias, and I

688
00:33:44,800 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 1: do look at the stuff, and I actually love the

689
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: way you've said, Adam is very smart, very intuitive, very

690
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 1: easy to consume, simply let's call it, don't missing, but

691
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: simply written. So it's the point. It's really important that

692
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: I can get through a quick and you're just hitting

693
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 1: on one topic. You don't have a thousand topics. You

694
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 1: just got one topic. Then that it comes to another

695
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: one comes through and that got that topic. But I

696
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:11,280
Speaker 1: wonder whether or not if you and your co founder

697
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,120
Speaker 1: have one bias or no bias. And I haven't read,

698
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,720
Speaker 1: by the way, I haven't read any read about it

699
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: because I look at the Greens right now. The Greens

700
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,799
Speaker 1: part of me for being cynical for a moment, and

701
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 1: perhaps even labor they've worked out there's probably a couple

702
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 1: of million people here of Palestinian Muslim faith compared to

703
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: the number of people who are of Jewish faith. And

704
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: maybe this is a cynical view, but it was one

705
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,560
Speaker 1: expressed to me this morning by a very senior person

706
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:52,439
Speaker 1: early this morning that the Greens are going for one vote,

707
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,839
Speaker 1: a going for the Palestini vote's more of them. Now,

708
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's right wrong, because I haven't

709
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 1: never spoken a shoe bridge. I have never spoken a

710
00:34:57,680 --> 00:35:00,479
Speaker 1: band about it. I wouldn't have a clue, but a wonder.

711
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 1: Then all of a sudden, I wonder someone put that

712
00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: idea in my head, and a wonder. Then I wonder

713
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: about those people who are writing news articles. And I

714
00:35:10,160 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: don't know what you guys written, but I wonder whether

715
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 1: they chase their going for the same thing, or they're

716
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,280
Speaker 1: just getting doing something that's a bit inflammatory, hoping people

717
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 1: read it.

718
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 2: I think that this conflict in particular has been the

719
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 2: hardest of any position. Well, just rather to you know,

720
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 2: when people are reading about the current conflict, they are

721
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 2: not looking for fact. They are looking to have their

722
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 2: own worldviews.

723
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: They're looking for so reflected corrected.

724
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that they're really looking They feel very emotionally

725
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 2: on both sides and rightly about the state of affairs,

726
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 2: and they are looking for something to reflect back their

727
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 2: own worldview and their own beliefs and their own values.

728
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 2: And that is not the role of news. That is

729
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 2: certainly part of the role of opinion. We don't do opinion.

730
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 2: That's not what we do. There's a space for that,

731
00:35:58,080 --> 00:36:01,239
Speaker 2: not our space. And so when presented with fact that

732
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 2: can be really confronting, especially at a time, and we're

733
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 2: seeing you know, activism, journalism kind.

734
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 1: Of this side which are more opinion base.

735
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean it's trying to pretend that what

736
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 2: you're doing is fact when in reality it's just activism.

737
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 2: And we've seen it with like influencers and commentators and

738
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 2: people who are going out on their own and positioning

739
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 2: themselves as a media company or as something bigger, but

740
00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 2: it is just their own view. And so I think

741
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,879
Speaker 2: that when that is out there in the world, and

742
00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:30,320
Speaker 2: we know that there are such low levels of trust

743
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 2: in media, it's an incredibly difficult thing to try to

744
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,880
Speaker 2: try and navigate. And you know, a lot of people

745
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 2: feel very strongly on both sides about the way that

746
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 2: we have covered it. But I'm proud that we have

747
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 2: brought the same principles and the same you know, levels

748
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 2: of accuracy and fact based informations that we have with

749
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 2: anything else.

750
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,799
Speaker 1: It's interesting, you know, that you say what you said

751
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 1: because some opinions versus facts. So when I was this

752
00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: sounds terrible, sounded like an whole bas But when I

753
00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: was growing up, one of the news outlets in particular

754
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 1: was an actual news outlet, never had opinions just said

755
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: this is the news, but that particular news outlet today

756
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 1: looks to me be very much opinion based as to

757
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: some of the other major news athletes too, because and

758
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 1: to some extent, it looks like today all of us

759
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: around the world being asked to take sides. Correct, it's

760
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: a time of you must take a side. Pick a

761
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: side on everything, but not just what's going on in

762
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 1: the war, but everything, abortion not abortioned, making money not

763
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: making money, interest rates, inflation versus introc like everything, take

764
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: aside and pick a person whose side are you on?

765
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 1: Not just pick a side.

766
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:12,839
Speaker 2: Who do you state to publicly and be.

767
00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:17,280
Speaker 1: Prepared to stay publicly and if you're not on my side,

768
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 1: I'm going to come after you. Well, someone will come

769
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,719
Speaker 1: after you. How do you feel about that?

770
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,360
Speaker 2: I think that that's noise, and that what we're doing

771
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 2: is news and not noise.

772
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 1: So you're trying to avoid that at all costs.

773
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 2: You know, Like, well, I mean in one sense, that exists,

774
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:37,279
Speaker 2: and we know that world exists, and I think the

775
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 2: problem is when people get into that world without the

776
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 2: foundation of fact, without knowing what it is they're actually

777
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:45,440
Speaker 2: talking about. And so what we're trying to do is

778
00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 2: give them that foundation of fact, give them just the

779
00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 2: news of the day, no opinion, no commentary. Then if

780
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 2: they want to go indulge in those conversations, fine, at

781
00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 2: least they're equipped with some of the facts to go

782
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,360
Speaker 2: into those conversations. I think the problem we have is

783
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 2: when we have people entering, whether it be political debate

784
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 2: and economic debate, whatever it is, without the foundation effect,

785
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 2: they go straight to the commentary space, and that's not

786
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 2: founded on evidence, it's not founded on accuracy. And I

787
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 2: think that that missing bit is really important to fill.

788
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 2: And so I don't think that there should be no opinion.

789
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 2: I don't think that there should be no commentary. I

790
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 2: just think we need the other stuff really strongly first

791
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 2: before we get there. And so, you know, I never

792
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,160
Speaker 2: say that the dailios is someone's be all end all.

793
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 2: I know that they're going to consume other information. They're

794
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 2: going to consume other media outlets, but they need both.

795
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:34,320
Speaker 2: They can't just have one, because I think that that's

796
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 2: when we end up in those really kind of prolonged,

797
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 2: evidence lacking conversations.

798
00:39:40,560 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: And and of course we've now got fact checking programs

799
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: and all that sort of stuff, but even that can

800
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 1: be biased.

801
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 2: We have a full time fact checker. Yeah, so that

802
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 2: was an investment that we made and we decided was

803
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 2: important and she's incredibly valuable part of our team.

804
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,640
Speaker 1: But what about maybe be interesting because you said you

805
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: talked about the budget lockup, so you know, I'd love

806
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: to have him here to ask me the question. But like,

807
00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 1: let's call it like Jim comes in and doctor Jim

808
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:15,359
Speaker 1: Chalmers comes in and he's presenting the budget, and he's

809
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,239
Speaker 1: presenting He's not going to present a ship position. He's

810
00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,799
Speaker 1: going to be as election company, present a fairly good

811
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: position what he considers reasonable, and then he attributes policy,

812
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: their policy to fighting inflation, increasing unemployment, sorry, decreasing unemployment,

813
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: giving it a good rate making. He's going to present

814
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: their policy as being good for workers, because that's one

815
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,280
Speaker 1: of the biggest constituency probably definitely one of the bigger

816
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 1: funders as well in terms of election winning elections or

817
00:40:52,840 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: challenging elections. I can make numbers do anything, and I

818
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: can attribute to the variables anything you're like, I can

819
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: build a model. I mean that's my experience. I can

820
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 1: build a model by inserting variables, which is model basically

821
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: just a formulas like an algorithm. I can build one

822
00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:19,359
Speaker 1: that can tell you that the gunman's doing a great job,

823
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: and I can build another one the government does a

824
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: crap job. And I can interpret things that the RBA says,

825
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 1: that she says that indicate that they're not happy with

826
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 1: the government, and I can interpret the stuff that she says,

827
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 1: just the words by saying she's happy with the government.

828
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 1: When you're at the lockup, what do you do when

829
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 1: you're going to present the facts as he's told you?

830
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:45,920
Speaker 2: No, what do you do? That's the point, So that

831
00:41:46,000 --> 00:41:48,919
Speaker 2: last bit about I can interpret X, y Z. We're

832
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 2: not doing the interpreting. What we're doing is let's take

833
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,759
Speaker 2: pudget lock up as an example. So if anyone that's

834
00:41:54,760 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 2: not familiar, because normal people would never subject themselves to

835
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 2: seven hours in a locked room in the world exactly.

836
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,400
Speaker 2: But you walk in, you're given a stack of budget papers,

837
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 2: your phone is taken away from you, and you have

838
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,280
Speaker 2: no internet, and through that time.

839
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 1: Before they present the budget, correct, you.

840
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:11,360
Speaker 2: Are trawling through. A journalist is trolling through those papers

841
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 2: looking at just hard numbers. There is nothing else. Then separately,

842
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,479
Speaker 2: you have a stack of the government's media releases that's

843
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 2: them spinning. And this isn't just the specific government spinning

844
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 2: what it is that those numbers should say in their minds.

845
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:28,200
Speaker 2: And then come six thirty pm we have the treasure

846
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 2: I get up and present the budget to the nation.

847
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,279
Speaker 2: By the time the Treasurer has gotten up and given

848
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 2: that speech, our journalists are out. They are not. They're

849
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:38,880
Speaker 2: covering that they have taken everything from the numbers that

850
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,040
Speaker 2: they need for the daily os. Specifically, we do about

851
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:45,319
Speaker 2: ten to fifteen posts on Budget Night that says here's

852
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 2: what's in the budget for health, here's what's in the

853
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 2: budget for housing. We're not using the government's spin at

854
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:53,600
Speaker 2: any point. We're not even talking about the government. We're

855
00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 2: purely talking about those numbers and then letting people do

856
00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,080
Speaker 2: that interpretation bit that you just mentioned by themselves. They

857
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:02,400
Speaker 2: can go and read the Heralds or the Australian or

858
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 2: the Guardians interpretation of it. And I'm sure they do

859
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 2: those A plus lists and F for whatever else. That's

860
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:10,799
Speaker 2: not our place. We're not going to do that. We're

861
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:12,839
Speaker 2: going to say here's the funding that's gone to this,

862
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 2: this and this, here's where the funding is not off.

863
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 2: You go, you have the facts you need.

864
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 1: And so when somebody reads your facts, let's say they

865
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: read it tomorrow morning, good morning, after the budget's been delivered,

866
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 1: because you know, whatever whatever reason is, but they've already

867
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:35,279
Speaker 1: read the IFR or they've read the odds and they've

868
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:40,759
Speaker 1: got they've got their opinion already in their brain. Do

869
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: you think that those people will interpret what you've put

870
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 1: in the facts that you put out based on their

871
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:47,279
Speaker 1: opinion they already hold.

872
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,959
Speaker 2: That's not our audience, the people that you've just said,

873
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:52,160
Speaker 2: I'm not reading the thin.

874
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:53,880
Speaker 1: Review, I do, I read your stuff.

875
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you for being the anomaly that we can

876
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 2: use in anecdotal evidence our audience. We surveyed them seventy

877
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,360
Speaker 2: three percent where they said that we are their primary

878
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 2: source of information. They're coming to us first and then

879
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:06,720
Speaker 2: going elsewhere.

880
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 1: And do they go do you know I believe? So?

881
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, we know that there is you know, a fuller

882
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 2: media diet, and we encourage that that's excellent.

883
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 1: For your age audience. Yeah really, yeah, and.

884
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 2: There you know there you've had Hannah Ferguson on the

885
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:21,680
Speaker 2: show before. We know that there are people that would

886
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 2: read cheek that. We know that there are people that

887
00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 2: would read all sorts of things, they'd go and capital brief,

888
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:28,840
Speaker 2: they go and read that. If they're in the space,

889
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 2: it's about exactly and huge fans, and it's about creating,

890
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 2: you know, a really sustainable media diet where they have

891
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 2: come to us for those facts and then they're getting

892
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 2: the analysis from elsewhere. So I don't think it's necessarily

893
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,240
Speaker 2: going the other way, at least for our primary audience.

894
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,879
Speaker 2: So they're not coming having read analysis and then reading

895
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,000
Speaker 2: the facts. They're opening up social media. They probably don't

896
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 2: even know it's budget night, they see a post from us,

897
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:55,760
Speaker 2: then they realize it's budget night, they read our things,

898
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 2: and then if they want more they go elsewhere.

899
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,319
Speaker 1: So your business has been going for I guess years

900
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: now seven.

901
00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 2: Seven years as a business three years.

902
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: Right, yeah maybe, And originally you and Sam funded it

903
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: all yourselves.

904
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 2: So we actually put no money into it never but it.

905
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:15,360
Speaker 1: Was so we're sort of self funded.

906
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,719
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, we just spent no money on anything. And

907
00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,000
Speaker 2: then we had but do you use your own efforts correct?

908
00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 2: A lot of sweat, so much sweat that's money and

909
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,160
Speaker 2: yeah yeah, and then we had someone else join the

910
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 2: business put in a bit of money. Then he since

911
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 2: exited the business, and we were able yet to just

912
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 2: build it spending very little money until we raised around.

913
00:45:36,840 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: You, he did raise. So we've done to raise and

914
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 1: the business. Now what do you talk talking about in

915
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: terms of audiences? How do you measure? How do you

916
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 1: measure your audiences and how they're going?

917
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, so our fastest growing audience is actually our newsletter audience,

918
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:51,439
Speaker 2: and that were really Yeah, that was an intentional play

919
00:45:51,480 --> 00:45:55,920
Speaker 2: by us to diversify our audience away from being primarily social.

920
00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:58,960
Speaker 2: We still see social as the front door. We want

921
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 2: people to find us that way, that's how you discover us.

922
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 2: But if we think of it as a funnel, and

923
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 2: you know, that is kind of that third party not

924
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:08,879
Speaker 2: owned by us, rented audience. We need to bring them

925
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 2: into our ecosystem. We need to be able to know

926
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,000
Speaker 2: who they are, and we need to be able to

927
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 2: you know, have some of that data. So we have

928
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:18,280
Speaker 2: been able to grow that first party data audience, especially

929
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 2: in light of all of the concerns between Meta and

930
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 2: the government. We didn't want to risk anything by having

931
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 2: you know, all our eggs in one corner or one basket,

932
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 2: and so newsletter we've got two hundred and fifty thousand

933
00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:35,720
Speaker 2: daily readers. We've got a podcast, We've got in Instagram,

934
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,520
Speaker 2: we've got a TikTok, got a website and then building

935
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:41,839
Speaker 2: something else as well. Got a game, a game, got

936
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:42,840
Speaker 2: a game picture this?

937
00:46:43,719 --> 00:46:44,120
Speaker 1: What is that?

938
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:45,920
Speaker 2: You'll have to play? No, tell me.

939
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 1: We've got to the audience it is.

940
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 2: It's an emoji game, so you have to guess. It's

941
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 2: words written out as emojis. And it's on our website.

942
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 2: And so people come read the news, you know, The

943
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 2: New York Times makes brings in rather most of their

944
00:46:58,360 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 2: audience through games. And we saw that and we were like,

945
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 2: we need to be able to diversify our offering. We're

946
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 2: not going to do pop culture, We're not going to

947
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 2: do live style, not going to do gossip. How do

948
00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 2: we keep people interested and be ait playful at same time? Exactly?

949
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 2: And it's hard when you only do hard news to

950
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:17,800
Speaker 2: be playful. And so our excellent tech wizard Niche built

951
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 2: us a game from scratch.

952
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: Doing about playful playfulness. Can we just turn our attention

953
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: from mode to Harris and Trump? So you guys are

954
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:33,120
Speaker 1: covering global news, what's the same place? How do you

955
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: see it? What do you think is going to happen.

956
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:36,439
Speaker 1: Do you mind if I ask?

957
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:40,080
Speaker 2: I don't know. I really I don't know.

958
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: I think the pole based you're based on polls, or

959
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:45,360
Speaker 1: you're just disciplined.

960
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 2: I mean, the poles don't really tell us anything. They

961
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 2: say neck and neck.

962
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 1: It's very difficult, too embarrassed to say that for Trump anyway.

963
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 2: So exactly, so, yeah, if you're to account for that,

964
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 2: which we know happened in twenty sixteen, then that would

965
00:47:57,040 --> 00:48:01,560
Speaker 2: put in just ahead. I think that I made a

966
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 2: bet with my brother on the day that Harris announced

967
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 2: her run that Trump would win. I'm not as confident

968
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,960
Speaker 2: anymore that it's a sure thing. I think he might

969
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,239
Speaker 2: still scrape through. But I think that she's run a

970
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 2: better campaign than anyone would have expected at the time

971
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:20,399
Speaker 2: based on, you know, what she had been like as VP.

972
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 2: I think there was a lot of underestimating what that

973
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 2: campaign would look like. I don't know the answer. I

974
00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,759
Speaker 2: will be glued to my television like everybody else come

975
00:48:28,840 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 2: November fifth, which channel will be watching everything? So you've

976
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:33,919
Speaker 2: got to have two screens. That's why we have three

977
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 2: screens in our office. You got to CNN on one,

978
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:37,839
Speaker 2: you watch Fox on the other. Somehow they're not even

979
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 2: talking about the same thing.

980
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:41,360
Speaker 1: And do you think it's the same election. Actually, I

981
00:48:41,360 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: had Joe Hockey sitting in that chair actually four days ago,

982
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: and Joe still think some trum Trump can get it.

983
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:49,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so too. Yeah, I think that there's

984
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,840
Speaker 2: a real chance that he will. I just think that

985
00:48:52,440 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 2: he obviously would have been far further ahead had Biden's

986
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 2: state of.

987
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:58,399
Speaker 1: It'd be no brainer. Yeah, if Biden had a state

988
00:48:58,480 --> 00:49:03,279
Speaker 1: on But can I ask you this question, then, how

989
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 1: do you feel? Not your news outlet, but how do

990
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:09,440
Speaker 1: you feel personally, as Sidler, Zara Sidler, how do you

991
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,799
Speaker 1: feel personally about the fact that it's become It looks

992
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,280
Speaker 1: like it comes down to it just a popularity contest

993
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,280
Speaker 1: who's the most popular, Because it's not popularity because of policy.

994
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:23,240
Speaker 1: It's popularity because of she's better on TikTok and he's

995
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 1: better on Facebook or something like that.

996
00:49:25,200 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 2: Hasn't it always been that way?

997
00:49:27,760 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 1: More that way now than ever before. I think, I.

998
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:32,359
Speaker 2: Mean, I think that we don't engage on a deeper

999
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 2: level with policy in the way that we might have

1000
00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 2: when you know, information wasn't given to us in ten

1001
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 2: second bites. But I don't know that that popularity contest

1002
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:42,239
Speaker 2: is a new or novel concept. I think that that's

1003
00:49:42,360 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 2: always been the way. It's just been through different mediums.

1004
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 2: Like you know, we had JFK and Nixon talking in

1005
00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:53,760
Speaker 2: having their debate on the first televised TV debate. Same

1006
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:56,240
Speaker 2: thing today, it's just through our phones and on TikTok.

1007
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 2: I don't think that it's new. I think that, you know,

1008
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:00,320
Speaker 2: we've seen this before.

1009
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:03,400
Speaker 1: Except that I would say that JFK was the first

1010
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: television president.

1011
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 2: He was better on TV than Yeah, it is charisma.

1012
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 1: He looked a certain way. He had a charisma about him.

1013
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 1: It wouldn't matter whether he was blue or red, but

1014
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:16,319
Speaker 1: it wouldn't have made no difference. He was always going

1015
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 1: to win it as a TV campaigner. Trump was maybe Obama,

1016
00:50:20,560 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: but Trump was the first social media president and now

1017
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 1: will and that's and this is all about popularity. That

1018
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,319
Speaker 1: was sort of my point about popularity, how platforms can

1019
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 1: build popularity. She's becoming the TikTok. She now becoming the

1020
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 1: latest version of social media, which is, you know, a

1021
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 1: TikTok president where you don't have to vote by the

1022
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: way you can, but I'll be compelled to because I'm

1023
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:44,640
Speaker 1: watching her, and I think she's great on TikTok, whereas

1024
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 1: Trump will going to just let go an old man.

1025
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 2: I mean, but Trump, I mean, Trump's not dominating TikTok

1026
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 2: at all, totally Harris's space, but he's dominating other platforms.

1027
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,359
Speaker 2: That's my point. Yeah, And I think, so which one

1028
00:50:54,440 --> 00:50:56,360
Speaker 2: you think is going to give you just see some

1029
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 2: giving it? I have no I mean, we know that

1030
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 2: younger people are TikTok. We know that they need to

1031
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:04,759
Speaker 2: come out in droves in order to pa Harris's. Yeah,

1032
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 2: in order to push Harris's vote up, But she has

1033
00:51:07,160 --> 00:51:09,799
Speaker 2: fractured the left. You know, the far left and the

1034
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 2: moderate left did not agree on backing her, So that

1035
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,280
Speaker 2: might be interesting that splinter might not work in her favor.

1036
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 2: Whereas you know, Trump also is facing moderate Republicans who

1037
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 2: don't want to get behind him. And you know, since

1038
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 2: coming out like the Chinese and saying that they'll support Harris,

1039
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 2: there's a splintering on both sides. I don't know. I

1040
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:29,439
Speaker 2: don't know where it lands. I truly don't.

1041
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: Can you see that happening here in May or March

1042
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: or April or May whenever it's going to be caught

1043
00:51:34,680 --> 00:51:37,359
Speaker 1: next year. I mean, are we moving? I know it's

1044
00:51:37,400 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 1: a different sort of process. We don't have presidents and such,

1045
00:51:40,800 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: but do we do do polls? Which is the most

1046
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,799
Speaker 1: popular prime minister? Well? Literally opposition? Do you see that

1047
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 1: creepy industry and politics and the voting patterns, the voting

1048
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:52,440
Speaker 1: thinking patterns.

1049
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:56,920
Speaker 2: I think, I look, the Americanization of Australian politics is

1050
00:51:56,960 --> 00:52:01,800
Speaker 2: not new. I think that we do gravitate more around

1051
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,799
Speaker 2: that centrist mark, and so I don't see it at

1052
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:06,760
Speaker 2: the same rate as what we'd see who's.

1053
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 1: Close to the center. Then between the two here in Australia,

1054
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 1: Dunton and Alba.

1055
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I think that they both say things that

1056
00:52:12,960 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 2: would stray them from the center, but I think that

1057
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 2: on the face of it, they are both They do

1058
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,359
Speaker 2: have more common ground than I think anyone would like

1059
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 2: to admit. And I think that we're very lucky to

1060
00:52:23,880 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 2: have a country where we don't have a gaping hole

1061
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 2: between the two parties and they can find common ground,

1062
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,520
Speaker 2: and you know, we can have state premiers agree with

1063
00:52:33,120 --> 00:52:35,440
Speaker 2: federal opposition leaders and the like. And I think that

1064
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 2: we're in a very lucky country as a result of that.

1065
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 1: Because I'll be just interested to someone like you switched on,

1066
00:52:40,600 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 1: especially for your generation. You're a great representation of generation

1067
00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:49,080
Speaker 1: and you definitely switched on to your generation because that's

1068
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 1: what your business is. Do you think there's room for

1069
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:56,200
Speaker 1: a new party in the middle of it all, because,

1070
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,880
Speaker 1: I mean we saw how well the Teals did no

1071
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,959
Speaker 1: real particular reason, they just took ground from.

1072
00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,360
Speaker 2: The Liberals, I mean, but they had a bloody strong campaign,

1073
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 2: right yeah, and they I must confess I did work

1074
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:13,120
Speaker 2: for an Independent in my past life, so come to

1075
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 2: that with what you will. But I think that you know,

1076
00:53:15,440 --> 00:53:17,879
Speaker 2: that was a real moment in time. They were able

1077
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 2: to galvanize on many key areas that, as you said,

1078
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:25,840
Speaker 2: the Liberal Party were not. Whether there will be another

1079
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 2: version of that, I think that there might be an

1080
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:33,520
Speaker 2: assortment of Independence that are more right of center that

1081
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 2: I could imagine seeing in more socially conservative spaces, But

1082
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:40,480
Speaker 2: we'd have to wait and see. We've still got a

1083
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 2: long time before the next election.

1084
00:53:43,440 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 1: Do you think the likes of Murdock and that still

1085
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:47,360
Speaker 1: have huge influence.

1086
00:53:46,960 --> 00:53:49,800
Speaker 2: On Australia, Yes, without a doubt.

1087
00:53:49,840 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 1: I think it's a way of generation or younger generation.

1088
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,000
Speaker 2: I mean, when you own two thirds of the media

1089
00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:58,480
Speaker 2: market that spreads to everyone. I think that social media

1090
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 2: is decentralizing.

1091
00:53:59,560 --> 00:54:02,040
Speaker 1: That power is decentralized, yeap.

1092
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:05,400
Speaker 2: And that you know, little old me can build a

1093
00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 2: company that can hopefully sustain itself. But I don't think

1094
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 2: that the power of Murdoch or nine in this country

1095
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 2: can be underestimated. I think it's very difficult to be

1096
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:18,360
Speaker 2: a new player when there are such entrenched concentrations of power.

1097
00:54:19,080 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 2: But that's why we're doing it. We want to be

1098
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 2: able to change that. We think that the more people

1099
00:54:22,520 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 2: in the market, the better.

1100
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 1: But doesn't your generation, say, up to thirty and I

1101
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 1: don't have I'm suspecting from our earlier part of the

1102
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 1: conversation you're like sort of closing that gap to thirty

1103
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:38,239
Speaker 1: but not there Isn't that a matter of just a

1104
00:54:38,239 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 1: matter of time because very few people a under the

1105
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,800
Speaker 1: age of thirty even reading newspaper like a physical newspaper,

1106
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:46,000
Speaker 1: or if a lot of them don't even subscribe to

1107
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:52,800
Speaker 1: the traditional newspaper digital platforms yep. And so over time,

1108
00:54:53,040 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 1: you know, if you hang in here long enough, you'll

1109
00:54:55,320 --> 00:55:00,600
Speaker 1: become the traditional digital news for generation to come.

1110
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:03,279
Speaker 2: Well, I think that when we're talking about young again.

1111
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,600
Speaker 2: I don't want to create a homogeneous group. You know,

1112
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 2: regional and rural young people will have access to a

1113
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 2: Murdock paper much easier than anyone else exactly, And so

1114
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,840
Speaker 2: I think nothing can be grouped as a whole. But no,

1115
00:55:16,880 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 2: we want to keep innovating. We want to create. We

1116
00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:20,879
Speaker 2: don't want to age up with our audience. We want

1117
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,600
Speaker 2: to create a space for young people. We think they're

1118
00:55:23,640 --> 00:55:26,560
Speaker 2: the ones who are underserved. I think as you get older,

1119
00:55:26,600 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 2: there are many options as to where you can access

1120
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:30,920
Speaker 2: the news. We think that the stories of young people,

1121
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:33,040
Speaker 2: you know, the housing market, whatever it is, we can

1122
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 2: tell those stories well, and we want to continue.

1123
00:55:34,800 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 1: To do that. You must do these surveys or polls.

1124
00:55:37,520 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 1: But what are the big issues apart from the office

1125
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 1: stuff like environment and DV and all those sorts of

1126
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: things that are sort of specific. Is cost of living

1127
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:47,880
Speaker 1: the biggest issues for your audience?

1128
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,279
Speaker 2: Yes, yep, yeah, without a doubt. And we've seen that

1129
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 2: change over time. It was climate and it is now

1130
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 2: cost of living, specifically cracking into the housing market and

1131
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 2: rental prices. We know that young people can't afford homes.

1132
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 2: We know that they're giving up on any aspiration of

1133
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 2: owning a home really and yeah, yeah, there is this

1134
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 2: like lifetime commitment to renting that our generation is just

1135
00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:14,040
Speaker 2: kind of feeling like that is the only way because

1136
00:56:14,040 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 2: of what they're looking at and what they're seeing. And

1137
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 2: so it's I think that's the angle of the cost

1138
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 2: of living crisis that is most poignant, I guess in

1139
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:24,799
Speaker 2: our demographic more so than anything else.

1140
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:28,239
Speaker 1: I'd say, so as your news autlet gets older, and

1141
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 1: as you get older, you're going to have this dichotomy

1142
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 1: or this sort of confluence events where you're trying to

1143
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 1: retain those people who you already got who are getting

1144
00:56:39,680 --> 00:56:43,359
Speaker 1: older got different views, and then you're going to try

1145
00:56:43,360 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 1: and bring in recruit those new people who got totally

1146
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:51,360
Speaker 1: different ideas to the people who are, say, thirty five excellent.

1147
00:56:51,560 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 2: Sounds like a contest of ideas.

1148
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,719
Speaker 1: It's contest of vis How do you approach that? I mean,

1149
00:56:56,760 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 1: how do you approach it? Because you're no longer? How

1150
00:56:59,239 --> 00:56:59,960
Speaker 1: do you say content?

1151
00:57:00,200 --> 00:57:02,520
Speaker 2: I'm old already at twenty seven.

1152
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:04,799
Speaker 1: But when you're thirty five and all your twenty seven

1153
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 1: year olds who follow your yeah now are now thirty

1154
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,040
Speaker 1: five yeap, And obviously that's a stupid thing because some

1155
00:57:11,080 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 1: of them are already probably going to be thirty five. If

1156
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 1: someone might be forty then but doesn't. But then all

1157
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:17,760
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you're But also you want to stick

1158
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 1: to your original plan. You want to get nineteen twenty

1159
00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 1: year olds. How do you How will you bridge that gap?

1160
00:57:23,280 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 1: How will Zara Sidelin bridge that gap?

1161
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:28,720
Speaker 2: It's an excellent question. We are recruiting the next leaders

1162
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,640
Speaker 2: of The Daily Os. We have twenty year olds in

1163
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:35,280
Speaker 2: our company who are still at university, and instead of

1164
00:57:35,320 --> 00:57:37,840
Speaker 2: going into legacy publishers, they're coming to work for us

1165
00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 2: and they're learning strategy, they're learning everything there is to

1166
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 2: know about building a company from the ground up. And

1167
00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 2: that means that you know, at the time where I'm

1168
00:57:47,280 --> 00:57:49,640
Speaker 2: no longer the right leader, We've got a pool full

1169
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 2: of incredible, young, talented people who have been here since

1170
00:57:53,560 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 2: day dot, and I'll know when it's my time.

1171
00:57:56,360 --> 00:58:00,080
Speaker 1: So Sarah and Sam will be the major shohold or

1172
00:58:02,520 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 1: is it a risk they're going to say, hang on

1173
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 1: a minute, there's no way in the world. Well, I

1174
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 1: will allow these groups of twenty year olds to influence

1175
00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:17,840
Speaker 1: the outcomes of what we've created over a cess called

1176
00:58:17,920 --> 00:58:22,440
Speaker 1: twenty year period. Murdock like, I mean, how do you

1177
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 1: resist that process? Because I'm not going to let your

1178
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 1: fuck up what I've created over the last ten to

1179
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:29,440
Speaker 1: fifteen years.

1180
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 2: It's all about having the right people in the room

1181
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 2: and like the people.

1182
00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 1: That we have the way you think or.

1183
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:39,320
Speaker 2: No, just like again, different life experiences, Like we have

1184
00:58:39,400 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 2: a newsroom that genuinely reflects the diversity of the Australian experience.

1185
00:58:44,160 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 2: We have people from all walks of life and they

1186
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 2: bring with them all sorts of ideas and whatever else,

1187
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 2: and they know what works for different audiences. It's about

1188
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:54,880
Speaker 2: finding the right platforms. Instagram is not going to be

1189
00:58:54,920 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 2: the dominant platform for much longer. Where else are we

1190
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 2: looking for young people? Where are we meeting them, what

1191
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:01,280
Speaker 2: are we doing for them? How we bring them information?

1192
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:04,320
Speaker 2: And I think we're okay in the sense that you

1193
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 2: were just highlighting because we don't do opinion, because we

1194
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 2: don't do commentary. So it's never been the Czara and

1195
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 2: Sam show. It's always been about let the facts do

1196
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:14,480
Speaker 2: the talking and take it from there, and that will

1197
00:59:14,480 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 2: continue to be the way.

1198
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 1: I wish I was young enough to say that in

1199
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 1: thirty years time, assuming you don't sell this to somebody.

1200
00:59:20,880 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 1: But in thirty years time, maybe I could get there. Maybe,

1201
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:28,720
Speaker 1: But in thirty years time I could be sitting here

1202
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:31,160
Speaker 1: across from Sara and say so, I do remember thirty

1203
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:33,160
Speaker 1: years ago when we had this conversation, Well.

1204
00:59:33,040 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 2: It's money to say that, because I Sam and I

1205
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:38,160
Speaker 2: often laughed. We wanted to do things really differently. We

1206
00:59:38,200 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 2: said we were going to do things differently from day

1207
00:59:40,960 --> 00:59:43,160
Speaker 2: dot and one of the things we did was get

1208
00:59:43,240 --> 00:59:45,919
Speaker 2: up at a conference and say we'll never do advertising.

1209
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:48,320
Speaker 2: And then that was the day we learned to never

1210
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:52,080
Speaker 2: say never. And our business is predominantly advertising.

1211
00:59:52,160 --> 00:59:54,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because that's how you make You're gona make money.

1212
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:55,160
Speaker 2: You got to make money.

1213
00:59:55,240 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 1: You've got a paper.

1214
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:59,360
Speaker 2: We were a lovely naive, ignorant twenty something year olds

1215
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:02,840
Speaker 2: who thought there's this magic button that makes you a

1216
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:06,880
Speaker 2: commercial business. Just don't quite without any revenue exactly.

1217
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:08,920
Speaker 1: And I'm not I'm not, by the way, I'm not

1218
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 1: saying that about thirty years time in a cynical way.

1219
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:14,680
Speaker 1: I'm a's just really curious to see you and me

1220
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 1: both out all rolls out, and you know whether or

1221
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:21,600
Speaker 1: not you sort of restructure the business and you know,

1222
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 1: put in non voting shares and voting shares, and then.

1223
01:00:25,400 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 2: And then change my name to Murdoch and then.

1224
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:31,480
Speaker 1: Well, I don't say that happening, but how you keep

1225
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 1: in touch with the younger generation. It'll be a challenge

1226
01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 1: the younger younger generation. And thirty is time will be

1227
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:39,560
Speaker 1: you know, because I see generations now as ten year periods,

1228
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 1: not used to be like twenty five ten year periods.

1229
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,680
Speaker 1: So when you're forty, you'll be in the forty to

1230
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 1: fifty year old generation. There'll be forty to thirty and

1231
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:49,520
Speaker 1: be a thirty to twenty. Yeah, there'll be two generations

1232
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 1: before you below you, so to speak. And I'm just

1233
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 1: so curious to see how you maintain your position because

1234
01:00:56,600 --> 01:00:58,640
Speaker 1: by then you'll be earning millions and millions of dollars

1235
01:00:58,640 --> 01:01:01,440
Speaker 1: every year. And give a little point piper. You've been

1236
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 1: an in point piper, and you'll have you'll have a yacht. Yeah.

1237
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've always heard that media is a really lucrative

1238
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:08,560
Speaker 2: business if you're one person and one person only.

1239
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:12,080
Speaker 1: Well, but but I'm curious to see I was getting down,

1240
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:13,680
Speaker 1: and actually I want to be I want to say

1241
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:16,040
Speaker 1: to you that I think I think the way you

1242
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:20,240
Speaker 1: have formatted. Your news is really really good. I think

1243
01:01:20,280 --> 01:01:22,760
Speaker 1: it's brilliant. Really really is brilliant, So I'm brilliant. I

1244
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:25,240
Speaker 1: actually tried to copy you in the growth. Yeah, as

1245
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 1: you say, the growth form of adoration is copying somebody,

1246
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 1: and but it didn't work out in our case. That's

1247
01:01:31,760 --> 01:01:38,200
Speaker 1: one too. I think that the process of picking picking

1248
01:01:38,200 --> 01:01:42,040
Speaker 1: an audience and sticking to that and just being facts.

1249
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 1: I like that because that's how news originally was done

1250
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 1: for me. But I think there's going to be lots

1251
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,400
Speaker 1: of challenges. You've got some beer moths that you're taking

1252
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:54,080
Speaker 1: on who are going to try and steal your position

1253
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,920
Speaker 1: no matter what. Yep, it's never going to stop. And

1254
01:01:57,040 --> 01:02:00,320
Speaker 1: good only a brave tough got to try, but also

1255
01:02:00,320 --> 01:02:02,880
Speaker 1: brilliant appreciate it really good. Did you come in silo

1256
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:03,480
Speaker 1: to same for me?

1257
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 2: Thanks coming