WEBVTT - The ‘playbook’ lobbyists use to delay climate action

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<v Speaker 1>When Professor Christian Danny appeared before a Senate inquiry into

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<v Speaker 1>climate and energy misinformation, he warned that Australia's facing coordinator

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<v Speaker 1>campaigns the aim not to debate solutions, but to stare them.

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<v Speaker 2>There is a network of organizations that exist to influence

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<v Speaker 2>the public, influence the media, influence political arenas like our Parliament,

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<v Speaker 2>to stop or reverse effective climate action.

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<v Speaker 1>Professor Danny has spent years tracing the billions spent on

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<v Speaker 1>messaging and outlining what he calls the climate obstruction playbook.

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<v Speaker 2>Short answer is, I think we're scratching the surface as

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<v Speaker 2>much more to research, but there's an overwhelming body of

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<v Speaker 2>empirical evidence now about these actors, about the financial flows.

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<v Speaker 1>That inquiry has now reported back with twenty one recommendations,

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<v Speaker 1>including more scrutiny of greenwashing, more transparency around who funds campaigns,

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<v Speaker 1>and more support for communities affected by renewable energy projects.

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<v Speaker 1>But the government still hasn't formally responded. I'm Daniel James,

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<v Speaker 1>and you're listening to seven am today we're bringing you

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<v Speaker 1>our episode with professor at A and US School and

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<v Speaker 1>Regulation and Global Governance Christian Downey on how the obstruction

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<v Speaker 1>Playbook has been so successful in stopping action on climate change.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Sunday, Jane fourteen. This episode was first published in

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<v Speaker 1>October twenty twenty five.

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<v Speaker 3>So, Christian, you've spent a lot of time investigating the

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<v Speaker 3>lobbyists and the tactics that they use behind a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of the misinformation that we see around climate change. So

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<v Speaker 3>where did that start for you?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, I guess for more than a decade, I've been

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<v Speaker 2>thinking about the politics of climate change. I've been working

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<v Speaker 2>in James and government and universities. I think the one

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<v Speaker 2>thing that stood out as I thought more about this

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<v Speaker 2>issue is, you know, because of the path breaking work

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<v Speaker 2>of climate scientists, we have a good understanding of why

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<v Speaker 2>the world is heating up, what the impacts are. Because

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<v Speaker 2>of the work of engineers and entrepreneurs, we have al

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<v Speaker 2>those all the technologies we need to cut pollution and

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<v Speaker 2>stabilize our climate. And because of the work of economists

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<v Speaker 2>and public policy experts, we know most of the policy solutions,

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<v Speaker 2>and yet we continue to fail to implement ambitious climate policy.

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<v Speaker 2>So is that kind of puzzling question about why are

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<v Speaker 2>we failing? Why aren't we reducing emissions? Like scientists are asking?

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<v Speaker 2>A major fact that it's become clearer over the years

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<v Speaker 2>is because of the efforts by groups and individuals in

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<v Speaker 2>society to obstruct actual and climate change, that is, to

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<v Speaker 2>block and oppose policies, and our failure to understand that

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<v Speaker 2>and then of course to overcome it.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, let's talk a bit more about those people and

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<v Speaker 3>groups and what you've come to learn about them. I

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<v Speaker 3>know that you went to Washington to meet some of

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<v Speaker 3>these people. So when you were there in the room

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<v Speaker 3>with them, tell me what you've learned about who they are,

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<v Speaker 3>how these campaigns are built, how they come about.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>So I've spent a number of stints over in the

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<v Speaker 2>US trying to study our climate and energy policy was shaped,

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<v Speaker 2>interviewing senior executives lobby.

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<v Speaker 4>From all the major fossil fuel industries.

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<v Speaker 2>Probably spent countless hours, now, you know, waiting in the

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<v Speaker 2>foyers of big office buildings, going through security up into

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<v Speaker 2>the corporate boardrooms, and sitting in the offices of major

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<v Speaker 2>coal corporations, executives from oil and gas corporations down in Houston,

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<v Speaker 2>their lobbyists in Washington, d C. But I've also spent

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<v Speaker 2>time with lobbyist in the soul A Wind hydro sector.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know, what you really find out is that

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of these groups are engaged and this is

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<v Speaker 2>part of how policy works in that town. There are

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<v Speaker 2>engaged in sophisticated political campaigns to try and shape policy outcomes,

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<v Speaker 2>to block policy outcomes, often particularly around climate change.

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<v Speaker 3>And so being in those rooms and seeing how this

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<v Speaker 3>works behind the scenes, was there anything that you witness

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<v Speaker 3>that really suppost crystallized the playbook that's been created and

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<v Speaker 3>used here.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, the thing that really I guess crystallized it

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<v Speaker 2>for me was probably over a couple of conversations that

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<v Speaker 2>when the lobbyists had come to it describes, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, cat a lot of detail how they were

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<v Speaker 2>plotting their strategies. Often that involved developing sophisticated public relations campaigns,

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<v Speaker 2>but they were often designed to kill off the next

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<v Speaker 2>piece of climate legislation. Maybe it was attempts to limit

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<v Speaker 2>emissions from coal. Of course, this isn't new, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>we know fossil fuel companies around the world have funded

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<v Speaker 2>multi billion dollar campaigns since at least the nineteen eighties

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<v Speaker 2>to deny the.

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<v Speaker 4>Existence of climate change.

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<v Speaker 2>They find a television campaigns, online campaigns, front groups, consultancy reports,

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<v Speaker 2>and many others, and it's worked, and I think, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>through these conversations it really became apparent to me that's

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<v Speaker 2>what me and many other researchers have been working on

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<v Speaker 2>for some time.

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<v Speaker 4>Now.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm so curious. Tell me more about these campaigns, what

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<v Speaker 3>the strategy is.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, when you're thinking about, for example, the campaigns run

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<v Speaker 2>by corporations, often they have very long time horizons. They're

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<v Speaker 2>thinking what do they want to achieve over the next decade,

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<v Speaker 2>and maybe over a decade it is simply to you know,

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<v Speaker 2>store climate action as long as possible because they want

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<v Speaker 2>to keep selling oil or gas or coal. They're simply

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<v Speaker 2>just motivated by commercial interests. How those campaigns play out, Well,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a lot to it. There's lobbying, there's public relations.

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<v Speaker 2>There's often litigation. There's campaigns to cast doubt on the

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<v Speaker 2>role of science and scientists. I'll give you one example,

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<v Speaker 2>perhaps on public relations, which is really I think a

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<v Speaker 2>key part of what you might call the climate obstruction playbook.

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<v Speaker 4>So, public relations.

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<v Speaker 2>And advertising firms have long been paid to craft political

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<v Speaker 2>campaigns for oil and gas companies, among others. Now these campaigns,

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<v Speaker 2>they involve more than simply running a few television ads

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<v Speaker 2>for a corporate client. Often, affirm will do polling, they'll

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<v Speaker 2>do focus groups, they'll do media and social media campaigns.

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<v Speaker 4>Sometimes they'll even undertake astroturfing.

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<v Speaker 2>By astroturfing, what I'm referring to is creating fake community

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<v Speaker 2>groups to give the impression of widespread support or widespread

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<v Speaker 2>opposition for an issue.

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<v Speaker 3>Okay, so pr companies are being paid to come up

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<v Speaker 3>with these campaigns, but how much is being spent on

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<v Speaker 3>this and what does the money trail look like?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah?

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<v Speaker 2>I think this is one of the fascinating questions, right,

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<v Speaker 2>like if you follow the money of what's actually happening.

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<v Speaker 2>So what we did to try and answer that question

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<v Speaker 2>and follow the money trail was I can't say it

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<v Speaker 2>was the most exciting task all the time, but we

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<v Speaker 2>were looking at.

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<v Speaker 4>Their tax records.

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<v Speaker 3>Sounds exciting to me.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a good way to kill a dinner party conversation

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<v Speaker 2>and you start talking about tax records. But what we

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<v Speaker 2>tried to do was look at ninety trade associations. These

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<v Speaker 2>are kind of industry lobby groups and see go for

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<v Speaker 2>a decade, how much were they spending on politics. So

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<v Speaker 2>the first thing we did was just figure out how

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<v Speaker 2>much money they got. And these are huge sums of money,

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<v Speaker 2>even in the US context. So ninety trade associations working

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<v Speaker 2>on climate issues over a decade had twenty five point

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<v Speaker 2>six billion.

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<v Speaker 4>US just in revenues.

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<v Speaker 2>Wow, whats of money. And then the next question is,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, are they spending all of that on politics?

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<v Speaker 2>How much all of it? In fact it's only thirteen percent,

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<v Speaker 2>but thirteen percent of that is three point four billion.

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<v Speaker 4>Much of it.

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<v Speaker 2>And in fact two point two billion of that was

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<v Speaker 2>going to public relations advertising campaigns. Another seven hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>thirty million was going to lobbing. Now this is big

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<v Speaker 2>in the US, but it's not peculiar to the US.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, similar things happen here too.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. So if those are the sorts of sums that

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<v Speaker 3>we know are being spent in the US, do we

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<v Speaker 3>know how that compares to what might be happening here

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<v Speaker 3>in Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, part of the problem is we just don't have

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<v Speaker 2>as good transparency or disclosure practices here in Australia. So

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<v Speaker 2>we know that groups like say the Minerals Council of Australia,

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<v Speaker 2>which has probably done a lot to what climate policy,

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<v Speaker 2>or at least advocate against client policy here in Australia

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<v Speaker 2>does spend significant sums of money on political campaigns. They

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<v Speaker 2>run television and other campaigns. These things cost a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of money, but we aren't able to follow the money

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<v Speaker 2>trailer the same way that we are in the US.

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<v Speaker 2>And that's one of the issues I think here is

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<v Speaker 2>just lack of transparency.

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<v Speaker 3>Coming up. How Australia could fix its transparency problem.

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<v Speaker 2>Look, as a social scientist, it's notoriously difficult to try

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<v Speaker 2>and reach very robust conclusions on the effectiveness of one

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<v Speaker 2>particular strategy. But I think we can safely assume that

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<v Speaker 2>one of the main reasons that we're failing to implement

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<v Speaker 2>perhaps climate policies that are consistent with what climate scientist

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<v Speaker 2>has been calling for is is because of the activities

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<v Speaker 2>of some of these organizations.

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<v Speaker 3>Is not beyond because you just recently gave evidence to

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<v Speaker 3>a Senate inquiry into climate and energy misinformation. Can you

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<v Speaker 3>tell me about that inquiry and why you decided to

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<v Speaker 3>speak now?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So in the last couple of months, there's a

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<v Speaker 2>cross part inquiries set up. It's called a Senate Select

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<v Speaker 2>Committee on Information Integrity and Climate Change Energy. But basically

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<v Speaker 2>what they're interested in is looking at how is misinformation

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<v Speaker 2>around climate change affecting Australian politics, affecting public debates.

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<v Speaker 5>So it's a tried and true playbook which has been

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<v Speaker 5>tested overseas, particularly in the US. And is there any

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<v Speaker 5>reason to believe that this isn't now being tested here

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<v Speaker 5>in Australia or do you think that the learnings have

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<v Speaker 5>already come across No.

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<v Speaker 2>I believe those types of campaigns are being run here currently.

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<v Speaker 2>It did have senators from across all parties concerned about

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<v Speaker 2>this issue. You're wanting to know more about it and

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<v Speaker 2>really gathering information about the extent of these campaigns.

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<v Speaker 4>How they're playing out in Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>So we'll expect the committee to report in February and

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<v Speaker 2>hopefully they produce some strong recommendations that the Government decides

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<v Speaker 2>to act on.

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<v Speaker 3>And when we talk about misinformation in climate change and

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<v Speaker 3>the climate wars, and you know the media's role in this,

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<v Speaker 3>this has been going on for a long time. So

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<v Speaker 3>has something changed recently? Is what we're seeing different now?

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think anything significantly change. It kind of happens

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<v Speaker 2>with peaks and troughs. Often if there's a big climate

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<v Speaker 2>policy put forward, such as say a carbon price.

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<v Speaker 4>We saw a lot of lobbing in that period.

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<v Speaker 2>But one thing that we have had in the last

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<v Speaker 2>few months is a debate around what Australia's greenhouse gas

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<v Speaker 2>target is. You know, how much should Australia reduce its

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<v Speaker 2>emissions by. So for the last few months we've seen

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of political media attacks on renewable energy and

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<v Speaker 2>climate action here and I think these are straight out

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<v Speaker 2>of the climate obstruction playable.

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<v Speaker 6>There is a pathway for Australia to be really ambitious

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<v Speaker 6>in terms of the target that it sets, but it

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<v Speaker 6>is expensive and it's difficult, and we need to make

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<v Speaker 6>sure that we're very clear eyed in terms of the

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<v Speaker 6>approach that we take.

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<v Speaker 2>So we saw the Business Council Australia, one of the

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<v Speaker 2>biggest business groups in the country, released modeling.

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<v Speaker 6>We want Australia to co ambitious, but we need to

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<v Speaker 6>make sure that we're inherently practical along the way, it.

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<v Speaker 2>Was the Business Council a chief executive Brand Black, who

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<v Speaker 2>also says in action on climate change is no longer

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<v Speaker 2>an often you know warning the government that you know,

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<v Speaker 2>if you take a particular target, this might cost a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of money. Analysts say if the climate target is

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<v Speaker 2>to reduce emissions by more than sixty percent, it will

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<v Speaker 2>require more than four hundred billion dollars in new capital investment.

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<v Speaker 2>We saw Australian scientists who'd actually prepared the nation's first

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<v Speaker 2>national climate risk assessment showing the devastating consequences that we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to see from climate change and are already seeing.

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<v Speaker 2>If you have experienced the bushfires or the flooding of

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<v Speaker 2>recent years.

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<v Speaker 7>The report wardens natural disasters will cost the economy forty

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<v Speaker 7>billion dollars annually by twenty fifty.

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<v Speaker 2>We saw them being you know, a lot of scare

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<v Speaker 2>mongering about them on the front pages of Australian newspapers.

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<v Speaker 7>By the twenty sixties, climate change will allegedly rob us

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<v Speaker 7>of two point seven million work days a year. But

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<v Speaker 7>here's the thing. Governments can't even project next year's budget deficit.

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<v Speaker 2>So a lot of these kind of examples are very

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<v Speaker 2>much consistent with the empirical evidence that we've gathered from

0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:07.000
<v Speaker 2>around the world about how these groups obstruct climate action.

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<v Speaker 3>And when you read those sorts of reports and the

0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:15.440
<v Speaker 3>media reporting on them, you hear these lines like the

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<v Speaker 3>one from the Business Council of Australia that we support

0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:25.600
<v Speaker 3>ambitious but quote achievable targets. So what should we be

0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:27.320
<v Speaker 3>taking from that kind of messaging.

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<v Speaker 8>Well, I think the.

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<v Speaker 2>First thing is people should always be wary of information

0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:35.040
<v Speaker 2>that's spread by organizations such as an industry group that

0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.280
<v Speaker 2>have a commercial interesting issue. So you know, if you've

0:12:37.280 --> 0:12:39.959
<v Speaker 2>got a gas company out there saying well, renewable energy

0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:42.800
<v Speaker 2>is more expensive than gas, well you've got to remember

0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:43.720
<v Speaker 2>that the gas company.

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<v Speaker 4>Is going to make more money if people believe that.

0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:49.280
<v Speaker 2>So it's the same for industry groups like the Business Council.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the next time you see an industry groups

0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:54.200
<v Speaker 2>such as them or the Minerals Council out there complaining

0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:57.840
<v Speaker 2>about government regulation or claiming we need achievable and issius targets,

0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:00.720
<v Speaker 2>we've just got to remember it's not us they represent,

0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.280
<v Speaker 2>it's the interests of their members. Industry associations have a

0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:07.920
<v Speaker 2>legitimate role to advocate on behalf of corporations, but we

0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:10.360
<v Speaker 2>should never confuse this with what's in the interests of

0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:10.920
<v Speaker 2>the public.

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<v Speaker 3>And you mentioned this issue around transparency in Australia, Tommy,

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<v Speaker 3>I suppose how you think that issue can be looked

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<v Speaker 3>at and changed.

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<v Speaker 2>Research suggests that I guess if you're going to combat

0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:26.760
<v Speaker 2>climate change information, there's a whole range of things you

0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:29.120
<v Speaker 2>could do. In o its estimated before the Senate, we

0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:32.320
<v Speaker 2>suggested a few things, not an exhaustive list by any means,

0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:37.000
<v Speaker 2>but one is just to enhance individual immunity. Often people

0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:40.200
<v Speaker 2>talk about public inoculation much like a vaccine.

0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:40.320
<v Speaker 8>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>The idea is that you can weaken the impact of

0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:45.680
<v Speaker 2>misinformation if you just make people aware about it, draw

0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.600
<v Speaker 2>their attention to who's doing it, what's their financial support.

0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:54.040
<v Speaker 4>Another thing, of course, you can do, which we've.

0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.120
<v Speaker 2>Spoken about, is making sure that the government thinks about

0:13:57.160 --> 0:13:59.880
<v Speaker 2>putting in place regulations that forces some of these actors

0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:04.079
<v Speaker 2>a trade association to disclose, you know, where they're getting

0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:05.960
<v Speaker 2>their money from, what are they spending it on, so

0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:07.520
<v Speaker 2>we can shine a light on some of.

0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:09.160
<v Speaker 4>These political practices.

0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:12.839
<v Speaker 2>We're also going to, of course, need more systemic changes

0:14:12.880 --> 0:14:15.559
<v Speaker 2>and that often it might involve regulators like the atrible

0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:19.000
<v Speaker 2>C or ASK or others holding organizations to account but

0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:21.320
<v Speaker 2>engage in green washing. So there's a whole range of

0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:23.680
<v Speaker 2>things we can do, and of course at the individual level,

0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:26.600
<v Speaker 2>you know, we also we all et BC lives, but

0:14:26.680 --> 0:14:29.480
<v Speaker 2>to the extent we can checking you verifying the source

0:14:29.520 --> 0:14:31.720
<v Speaker 2>of something, particularly before we go and share it on

0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:33.280
<v Speaker 2>social media.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, Christian, thank you so much for talking with me.

0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:39.080
<v Speaker 4>A pleasure, thanks for having me.

0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:55.480
<v Speaker 1>Seven am will be back tomorrow with an interview with

0:14:55.520 --> 0:14:58.840
<v Speaker 1>Peter Garrett, the former Labor Minister. At midnight All front

0:14:58.840 --> 0:15:01.320
<v Speaker 1>Man is leading a the public inquiry into the most

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<v Speaker 1>expensive defense project in Australia's history, UCAS. We ask why

0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:09.520
<v Speaker 1>he believes Australians deserve answers and whether it's too late

0:15:09.520 --> 0:15:10.160
<v Speaker 1>to walk away.

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<v Speaker 8>And when I do a back of the envelope on

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<v Speaker 8>the cost of UCAS, I'm up around five hundred billion dollars.

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<v Speaker 4>It's a hell of a lot of money.

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<v Speaker 8>For that amount of money, you could, arguably, according to

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<v Speaker 8>defense experts, have a small, bigger fleet of diesel submarines.

0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.760
<v Speaker 8>You could enhance land based defense forces, and you'd have

0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:35.080
<v Speaker 8>quite a lot of spare change left over for schools

0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:35.720
<v Speaker 8>and hospitals.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James c EVM