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Speaker 1: Appoja Production. Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm

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Speaker 1: your host, Adam Shand. If you like our content, please

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Speaker 1: subscribe and like the podcast for more independent crime journalism. Today,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking you back to one of Australia's most dramatic

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Speaker 1: armed robberies. On July twenty eighth, nineteen ninety two, three

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Speaker 1: bandits robbed the Anset freight terminal at Melbourne's Tallamarine Airport.

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Speaker 1: Police say a man was shot dead during an armed

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Speaker 1: robbery at the Anset air Freight terminal at Melbourne Airport.

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Speaker 1: The priors was more than one million dollars that was

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Speaker 1: bound for regional banks. The robbers were three highly experienced crooks.

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Speaker 1: Normie Lee had been one of the great bookie robbers

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Speaker 1: who'd taken millions from the Victoria Racing Club. In nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy six, millions of dollars were stolen from Victoria's major

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Speaker 1: bookmakers in a robbery that stunnedials. He was the only

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Speaker 1: one to face trial and was acquitted. Stephen Asling, the

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Speaker 1: getaway driver, went on to infamy as the killer of

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Speaker 1: Graham the Munster kinnebre In December two thousand and three,

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Speaker 1: contract killer Stephen John Asling, who murdered on the orders

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Speaker 1: of Carl Williams, has been sentenced to life in prison.

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Speaker 1: The third member of the team was Stephen Barchie, a

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Speaker 1: seasoned armed robber who with Normi Lee, did the crucial

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Speaker 1: planning of the raid. Victoria Police confirmed that more than

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Speaker 1: fifty officers, including specialist.

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Speaker 2: Units, were involved in a pre planned operation around the

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Speaker 2: Front terminal.

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Speaker 1: The robbers did not know that the police were onto them,

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Speaker 1: and more than fifty officers were laying in wait, including

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Speaker 1: the Special Operations Group. The crooks got the money, but

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Speaker 1: they didn't get away.

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Speaker 3: One offender is dead, another seriously wounded, and a third

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Speaker 3: is in custody.

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Speaker 1: Norman Lee was shot dead and Barchie was grievously wounded

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Speaker 1: while Asling was apprehended as he tried to flee the scene.

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Speaker 1: Stephen Barchie did seven years jail for the crime and

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Speaker 1: has never spoken until today. Part of his motivation to

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Speaker 1: speak is to clear Normal Lee's name. Recent media reports

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Speaker 1: have suggested that Lee was also the abductor and rapist

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Speaker 1: of children, known in Victoria as Mister Kruele. The Mister

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Speaker 1: Cruel investigation remains one of Victoria's most disturbing unsolved cases

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Speaker 1: for my research. I think this is highly unlikely, but

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Speaker 1: Barchie wants to set the record straight about the man

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Speaker 1: he called his best friend, Steve Mate. Thanks for shedding

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Speaker 1: to me for real crime. I know you're a bit

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Speaker 1: nervous because you've never done this before.

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Speaker 4: I've never spoken about this before publicly at all, just

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Speaker 4: in court cases.

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Speaker 1: I think it's a reason we are doing this today,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's partly prompted by your love and

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Speaker 1: friendship of Norm normally. And of course we'll talk about

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Speaker 1: the events of nine ninety two July and you were

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Speaker 1: Normal at the airport there. We'll get into that, but

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Speaker 1: I'd also want to just kick off by talking about

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Speaker 1: what's been said about Norm in recent times. And I'll

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Speaker 1: just recap quickly. We had Ron Dall's from a homicide detective,

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Speaker 1: spoke to Andrew Rule, the Herald Sun journalist and podcaster.

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Speaker 1: And Ron recounted a conversation he had with Alfred Gay,

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Speaker 1: who was allegedly a coward of Norms. You're shaking your

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Speaker 1: head and I think it's yeah, I know that's not true, right,

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Speaker 1: So we'll get through that. And the story was that

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Speaker 1: Norm had a fetish about schoolgirls and school girl uniforms

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Speaker 1: and so forth, and that he was mister Cruel effectively.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just ridiculous, you know, very hurtful, hurtful for

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Speaker 4: his kids, his wife.

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Speaker 1: It just was not true because you were with him

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Speaker 1: through this period.

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Speaker 4: I was with him, yes, through that period from lee

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Speaker 4: early eighties, so from about nineteen eighty two onwards, I

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Speaker 4: was pretty close to and I spent a lot.

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Speaker 1: Of time with him.

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Speaker 4: I'd often just go past one of his factories and

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Speaker 4: spend some time with him, just have a coffee with

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Speaker 4: him and just talk and have a laugh. But I

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Speaker 4: did spend a lot of time with him, and he

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Speaker 4: definitely was not mister cruel.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, because that's a pretty heinous sallegation because he's

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Speaker 1: not around to defend himself. And that's part of the

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Speaker 1: reason why this has sort of got any legs at

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Speaker 1: all is that the attacks allegedly stopped around the time

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Speaker 1: that Norm was killed at the airport. Yes, so that's

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons it stops now. And I've done

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Speaker 1: the work then, I've gone up to Elfham there to

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Speaker 1: where the Leeds lived at that time, and I've told

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Speaker 1: you about this where the people across the road were

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Speaker 1: told by police at the time that Norm had possibly

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Speaker 1: been involved in a robbery. There was jewelry found by

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Speaker 1: the river near there and so forth stashed away, and

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Speaker 1: so they were told, listen, we think your neighbors are crook.

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Speaker 1: Can you keep an eye on him? And there were

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Speaker 1: gigs this whole they logged everything, or on ittles or

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Speaker 1: anybody else went to see them, and I think that

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Speaker 1: makes it very unlikely.

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Speaker 4: They're just going on what is Alfie Gay said, that's it,

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Speaker 4: you know, But I look, I don't know. I don't

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Speaker 4: know whether the cop is telling the truth. I don't

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Speaker 4: know if he's telling the truth there, whether he's made

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Speaker 4: it up or you know, maybe.

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Speaker 1: He did speak to this Alfie Gay.

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Speaker 4: And maybe he did say these things, but that I

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Speaker 4: can't prove of this proved.

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Speaker 1: So that's true. I mean, I would take it at

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Speaker 1: place value that it'll's had the conversation. But again, Alfi

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Speaker 1: Gay is dead. Also, he died a cancer not that

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Speaker 1: long afterwards, so there's no way of checking any of this,

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Speaker 1: but none of it. All you can go on is

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Speaker 1: your relationship with Norm and the person.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, like you know, he was just such a beautiful man, honest,

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Speaker 4: his friends were everything to him, and he'd never speak

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Speaker 4: out of school to his friends. It was they were

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Speaker 4: everything to him. And he was so kind and generous.

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Speaker 4: And that's a side that the public aren't aware of

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Speaker 4: with Norm that he was just such his beautiful man.

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Speaker 4: And I miss him every day. Every day I'll think

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Speaker 4: about him.

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Speaker 1: And even police that I've done in that era, had

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Speaker 1: a lot of respect for him. I mean as much

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Speaker 1: as you know. Obviously on the opposite sides of the law.

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Speaker 1: That's true the law, But I didn't respect for him

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Speaker 1: because he was very staunch, absolutely staunch. Apparently been involved

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Speaker 1: in the book he robbery, but he never told anybody,

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Speaker 1: never told me.

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Speaker 4: Did you ask him? I did ask him. I didn't

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Speaker 4: get an answer. So, but I did say to him

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Speaker 4: the morning that we were going out for the airport caper,

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Speaker 4: I said to him, listen, if we pull this off,

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Speaker 4: you've got to do one thing for him.

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Speaker 1: And he said, what's that.

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Speaker 4: I said, You've got to tell me the truth how

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Speaker 4: much money was involved.

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Speaker 1: In that thing?

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Speaker 4: And he just laughed, didn't say anything. He just laughed

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Speaker 4: and he had a really lovely laugh giggle. So it

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Speaker 4: was great really an old school crew. Oh yeah, definitely,

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Speaker 4: would never talk out of school, would never do anything

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Speaker 4: like that. And you can tell when he was taken

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Speaker 4: away with the safe, Apparently they were questioning him about

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Speaker 4: the safe, and he wouldn't answer them, which they there

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Speaker 4: safe that wash in one of his factories. He made

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Speaker 4: them cut it open and there was nothing in there,

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Speaker 4: And he could have said that from the start, but

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Speaker 4: he wouldn't even say that, so he didn't answer any

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Speaker 4: of the questions.

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Speaker 1: One of the other big myths about Norm was the

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Speaker 1: dim sim factory. Yeah, and the cops used to joke

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Speaker 1: that Les Kane was murdered by Ray Chuck Bennett's team, right,

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Speaker 1: and they'd put leeds through the machines at Norm's factory.

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Speaker 1: Do you think there's any truth in that?

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Speaker 4: No, No, I mean, that's all stuff that's made up.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, there are people out there that probably believe that.

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Speaker 1: You know, it makes for a story, doesn't it, of course.

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Speaker 1: And that's the thing about I think over the years,

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Speaker 1: I've spoken to a lot of people from your side

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Speaker 1: of the law, and they really speak and they have

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Speaker 1: to put up with all the sort of the police

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Speaker 1: generated narratives and myths about their lives. So it's great

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Speaker 1: to talk to you about what really happened. You've got

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Speaker 1: nothing to gain from this other than to represent your

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Speaker 1: friend Norm and his memory. And I think I'm also

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Speaker 1: very pleased that you're doing this on behalf of his family.

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Speaker 1: I've talked to his family quite extensively, and they were

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Speaker 1: very hurt by the mister Cruel allegations.

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Speaker 4: Children were absolutely devastated, and in particular this thing about

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Speaker 4: this Alfie case, it leads to a said that its arm,

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Speaker 4: it was a cross dresser, and all this other stuff.

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Speaker 4: It was just very hurtful for his children, and they

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Speaker 4: still haven't got over it.

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Speaker 1: No, And I think they put a lot of time

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Speaker 1: into trying to prove that Alfie Gay was mister Cruel.

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Speaker 1: And we've already talked about this, the fact that there

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Speaker 1: wasn't one mister Crule anyway. I think there were several too.

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Speaker 1: So the whole thing is based on a false foundation

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Speaker 1: that you can find one person and so that was

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Speaker 1: him anyway. So I think we can put that one

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Speaker 1: to bed, frankly, and I'm pleased that you can do

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Speaker 1: that because no one else has ever done it. No

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Speaker 1: one's ever stepped forward to speak for norm N.

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Speaker 4: And I hadn't intended until you approached me, and I

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Speaker 4: thought about and thought, you know what, I've got to

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Speaker 4: do this because no one else has ever done it

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Speaker 4: for him, and he was such a good person, and

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Speaker 4: I just needed to tell everybody how great he was.

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Speaker 1: You know, he really was a nice guy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So it's not all this stuff that's written in

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Speaker 4: the papers and that it's all said to sell newspapers.

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Speaker 1: And to be fair through the police eyes. Obviously, you

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Speaker 1: guys weren't loved by the police. No, And I think

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Speaker 1: also I'd like to deal today with the trauma that

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Speaker 1: you've carried from that day at the airport, well and yourself,

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Speaker 1: because it's easier to say, well, you put yourself in

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Speaker 1: that space. It was your bad decision and your series

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Speaker 1: of decisions to put you there, but still nonetheless dealing

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Speaker 1: with the trauma of being shot like that, seeing your

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Speaker 1: mate die in the stream.

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Speaker 4: Shot there basically beside me. So and he was airborne

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Speaker 4: there for a little bit. He went down on his

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Speaker 4: face and then they've turned him over apparently because I

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Speaker 4: just looked at the corner of my eye and I

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Speaker 4: could see his feet and they were up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was just I knew.

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Speaker 4: That he was gone, and you know, I never asked

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Speaker 4: the cops anything about it. And I was awake from

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Speaker 4: that moment until I got into the hospital and obviously

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Speaker 4: into the surgery because I just remember these really bright

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Speaker 4: lights above me and that's when I went out to it.

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Speaker 4: But up until that I was wide awake. You know,

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Speaker 4: I was talking to the ambulance guy. I was just

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Speaker 4: saying him, look, and you just tell my wife and

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Speaker 4: my daughter that I love them, you know, if I

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Speaker 4: don't make that. They were really nice, the ambulance guys,

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Speaker 4: and I got to see them later at the Corn's

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Speaker 4: court and I was able to We asked the coroner

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Speaker 4: if I could have a few minutes with him to

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Speaker 4: thank them, and I did. No, just two really good guys.

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Speaker 4: So they helped save me. So because I wasn't in good.

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Speaker 1: Shape that day. We'll get to how that happened. I'm

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Speaker 1: glad you brought that up, just to set the scene,

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Speaker 1: I guess if you like. But let's roll back to

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Speaker 1: when you first met norm the steps that led to

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Speaker 1: that day at the airport.

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Speaker 4: How did you first culminated in the ninety two?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, how did you first meet We.

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Speaker 4: Had mutual friends back then. I just can't mention any names,

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Speaker 4: but yeah, we had mutual friends, and I got to

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Speaker 4: name really really well, and I really liked him a lot.

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Speaker 4: I liked him more than the guy that ended up

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Speaker 4: introducing me to him. So yeah, I had a little

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Speaker 4: bit to do with Norm back then. So it was

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Speaker 4: just fantastic meeting him. He's just such a nice guy, and.

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Speaker 1: It come with that big reputation he'd been part of

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Speaker 1: that crew Ray, Chuck Bennett, Laurie Prendergast.

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Speaker 4: I never mentioned anything to him like that until the morning.

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Speaker 1: As I said earlier, but you would have been in

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Speaker 1: awe of him, because I think in criminal circles that job,

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Speaker 1: the Great Bookie Robbery, was one of those great big

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Speaker 1: jobs you know you grew up. I was in awe

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Speaker 1: of him, that's true.

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Speaker 4: But as I've got to know him all that, I

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Speaker 4: just he was an equal, you know.

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Speaker 1: And he had a double life, didn't he Because he

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Speaker 1: was running his factories, the dim Sims. He was always

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Speaker 1: working all the time. It was just working.

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Speaker 4: He created these machines for the dim Sims and the

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Speaker 4: Chica rolls like a big conveyor system and it would

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Speaker 4: pick them out, cook them the whole thing from start

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Speaker 4: to finish, and box them up and they'd be ready

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Speaker 4: for freezing. So he ended up selling one of those

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Speaker 4: machines to a company in Singapore. I think that was

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Speaker 4: in the early mid nineteen eighty two eighty three. So,

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Speaker 4: but yeah, he was always working.

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Speaker 1: It was hard working. So you do wonder why a

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Speaker 1: blake like that is obviously a gifted businessman, hard worker,

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Speaker 1: why did he go to crime? Do you think?

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Speaker 4: You know, Ray Chuck was his best friend and together

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Speaker 4: they just with the other guys, they just came across

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Speaker 4: this this robbery and they pulled it off. But it

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Speaker 4: brought a lot of grief too. You know a lot

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Speaker 4: of people that most of them are dead now, not

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Speaker 4: all of them, but most of them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the background, of course, that's right.

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Speaker 4: There two or three of them that are still alive.

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Speaker 1: That's all we can say about that. Yeah, yeah, And

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Speaker 1: I've tried over the years to get the people. Dennis

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Speaker 1: Fatty Smith was I think one of the drivers or

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Speaker 1: something in the job.

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Speaker 4: And I well that's what they've said, I think in

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Speaker 4: one of the different books, and they did he was

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Speaker 4: a driver, Dy Smith.

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Speaker 1: I tried to find him and I heard he was

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Speaker 1: dead that I told he wasn't dead. He was in

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Speaker 1: a nursing home in Keilo. He had his leg taken off.

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Speaker 1: I think he was as well him a few times, yeah.

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Speaker 4: Before and after the amputation, because he led.

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Speaker 1: And he was so happy to see people because he

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Speaker 1: felt like he was forgotten. So he would have really

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Speaker 1: appreciated you going there. So the background obviously the book

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Speaker 1: You Robber of nineteen six and they pulled it off

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Speaker 1: and was god knows how much money, A lot of money.

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Speaker 1: No one's really sure what the number was because the

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Speaker 1: bookies were so secretive about how much money they had there.

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Speaker 4: I think it was more than what the papers have said.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure. But then the Cane Gang, Brian and Lez

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Speaker 1: and their team backed by a couple of coppers, I

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Speaker 1: would suggest, decided that they were They were informers, definitely,

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Speaker 1: and I know that because Brian Francis Murphy, my mentor

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Speaker 1: dead as well ex police officer told me that they

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Speaker 1: were like that. Yeah, so you had the Cane Gang

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Speaker 1: was trying to toe cut ray Chuck's gang, and of

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Speaker 1: course they back up and they killed Les Kane.

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Speaker 4: And someone lost an ear I think in a fight.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 4: Pub they found out that they were going to come

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Speaker 4: back at them over this incident in the pub. That's

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Speaker 4: what I think. They just got him first and that's it.

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Speaker 4: That was the end of lez.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and they never found his body. And that was again,

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Speaker 1: that was the rumor that he went through Norm's dimsem machine.

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Speaker 1: You've got arlok. I mean, yeah, it's just ridiculous. I've

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Speaker 1: had another version that took him up to a wood

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Speaker 1: chipper up in the country somewhere, and that's where he

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Speaker 1: was disposed of. And why do you have to I mean,

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Speaker 1: there's plenty of places to get rid of a body.

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Speaker 4: This thing going into the water somewhere. You have gone

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Speaker 4: into the dirt. Yeah, No one really.

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Speaker 1: Knows because this leads ultimately to ray Check Bennett's murder

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Speaker 1: inside the city court only seventy nine I believe, and

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Speaker 1: that was how some police that you you know, well,

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Speaker 1: I think something he knew. Yeah, definitely, And people want

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Speaker 1: to read my book The Skull you can. Brian Murphy,

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Speaker 1: he certainly had knowledge of it. Yeah, whether he was

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Speaker 1: integral with the planning, I don't know. But the shooter,

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Speaker 1: which was more than likely Brian Kane, he knew the

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Speaker 1: layout of the city court and the backstairs and the

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Speaker 1: whole thing. And get to the car park and someone

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Speaker 1: had loosened off of a fence so if you get through.

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Speaker 1: And also Murphy told me how Brian cand parked his

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Speaker 1: car up near the shrine and then caught a tram there,

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Speaker 1: picked up his car, and he went to the home

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Speaker 1: of a police officer, stayed there and I know that game.

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Speaker 1: I won't say it, but he's still alive. And then

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Speaker 1: he ends up getting a light plane over to Adelaide

320
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Speaker 1: or something story like that to get out of the way,

321
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Speaker 1: to get out of the way. And this is all organized,

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Speaker 1: you know. So they definitely have the strength with them.

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Speaker 1: So all that background is there. But they got him too,

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Speaker 1: didn't they. That's right, So you've met norm after all

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Speaker 1: this has gone on. What was he doing? Was he

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Speaker 1: doing any sort of criminal activity that you aware when

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Speaker 1: you were in large years?

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Speaker 4: No, he was just working, that's true. You just he'd

329
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Speaker 4: get up in the morning, he'd go to work. Sometimes

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Speaker 4: he'd be there till seven, eight, nine o'clock at night,

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Speaker 4: you know, just working.

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Speaker 1: On all this stuff.

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Speaker 4: And his wife used to help out too often went

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Speaker 4: to the factory that was in Kensington, the one that

335
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Speaker 4: his father first started, and she was always working there,

336
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Speaker 4: boxing them gyms and doing all sorts of things. So yeah,

337
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Speaker 4: but they were just a working family. And in those

338
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Speaker 4: years you were doing a few robberies of your own.

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Speaker 4: What were you up to back then? Just lots of

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Speaker 4: different things. Like as a kid, I sort of got

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Speaker 4: involved in some safes.

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Speaker 1: How did you learn to do that?

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Speaker 4: I was in prison with the guy Birdie kid. Yeah,

344
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Speaker 4: I'm pretty sure it was him, and he showed I

345
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Speaker 4: was in prison with him, and he showed me just

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Speaker 4: pen and paper had to do it. So I'm pretty

347
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Speaker 4: sure it was him, Birdy kid.

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Speaker 1: And what was the method that you were taught? Just

349
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Speaker 1: to cut the square with?

350
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Speaker 4: They to cut the square, cut a link there at

351
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Speaker 4: the locking bar, blow a hole in the lots left

352
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Speaker 4: at the locking bar, and just dragged it across.

353
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Speaker 1: It's pretty simple.

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Speaker 4: Everyone that did say to use the same method for

355
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Speaker 4: years until they got smarter and the construction of them

356
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Speaker 4: and stuff started putting chemicals in there and.

357
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Speaker 1: Stuff that wasn't pleasant to smell. Yeah, right, So how

358
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Speaker 1: any safesty? Not that many? Not that many? Yeah, not

359
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Speaker 1: that many, fair enough? And these were pubs and clubs

360
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Speaker 1: or what were the sort of targets.

361
00:18:16,481 --> 00:18:23,640
Speaker 4: Just different areas, they're different businesses and stuff. I mean,

362
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Speaker 4: you never got the amount of money that you did

363
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Speaker 4: look out of an arrollalry for example. But you know

364
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Speaker 4: some of the money was okay because it.

365
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Speaker 1: Was certainly the age of the arm robbers, wasn't it.

366
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Speaker 4: But yeah, there was a crackers to the tank men,

367
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Speaker 4: that's right.

368
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Speaker 1: So you're a bit of an all because people had

369
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Speaker 1: a speciality back in those days. Either you're a tank

370
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Speaker 1: man or you're a gunny or a counter jumper. A

371
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Speaker 1: bit of everything, yeah, a bit more around us. Yeah,

372
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Speaker 1: a little bit of everything.

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Speaker 4: And that culminated of course in Yeah you my life

374
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Speaker 4: and Norm lost his life.

375
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Speaker 1: Correct. But you'd also teamed up with Stephen John Asling

376
00:19:02,681 --> 00:19:04,321
Speaker 1: before this. How did you meet Steve?

377
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,521
Speaker 4: Got introduced to him in a pub of all places.

378
00:19:08,561 --> 00:19:11,121
Speaker 4: He was just there having a beer and a friend

379
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,840
Speaker 4: of mine at the time introduced me to him. That's

380
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Speaker 4: how the friendship grew. And of course he went on

381
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Speaker 4: to bigger and greater things that I don't particularly agree with,

382
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Speaker 4: and I'm not happy about that.

383
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Speaker 1: You're talking about the murder of Graham Kinnerbrough. Yeah, in

384
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Speaker 1: two thousand and three. Yeah, that was unnecessary. I think,

385
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Speaker 1: very unnecessary, and it did set off one of the

386
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Speaker 1: bloodiest periods in Victoria's history. I was there and thereabouts

387
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Speaker 1: all through that period, and it was it was frightening,

388
00:19:39,321 --> 00:19:41,521
Speaker 1: you know what was going on, and that people would

389
00:19:41,521 --> 00:19:43,280
Speaker 1: have got involved, someone like Graham. We'll get to that,

390
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:46,281
Speaker 1: but prior to this, Steve Asling was full of dash.

391
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Speaker 1: People did rate him, coppers rated him. He was the

392
00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,080
Speaker 1: He was a happy guy, lucky guy. He was funny,

393
00:19:52,201 --> 00:19:55,281
Speaker 1: telling jokes all the time. But I think that when

394
00:19:55,321 --> 00:19:58,200
Speaker 1: he got involved with different substances, I think that's what

395
00:19:58,441 --> 00:20:02,360
Speaker 1: changed him. It can it just changed his personality. And

396
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Speaker 1: then I lost touch with him.

397
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Speaker 4: I got out him ninety nine and he can get

398
00:20:06,521 --> 00:20:11,120
Speaker 4: out three years later, and by then I'd moved away

399
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:13,360
Speaker 4: from Melbourne. I was living in Talk at the time,

400
00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:17,001
Speaker 4: pretty nice, quiet lifestyle and that's the way I wanted it,

401
00:20:17,521 --> 00:20:19,001
Speaker 4: and that's why I still lived today.

402
00:20:20,001 --> 00:20:22,041
Speaker 1: He was only out a matter of months before he

403
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:27,521
Speaker 1: got involved in that with the co accuds. Well two

404
00:20:27,521 --> 00:20:30,080
Speaker 1: thousand and two, he would have got out. And Graham

405
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:34,161
Speaker 1: died in December two thousand and three, three. Yeah, it

406
00:20:34,201 --> 00:20:38,160
Speaker 1: wasn't long and his accomplished Terry Green. He died shortly

407
00:20:38,201 --> 00:20:40,720
Speaker 1: after that. No one's quite sure what happened. We can

408
00:20:40,761 --> 00:20:42,561
Speaker 1: get this whole other story. We can range off in

409
00:20:42,561 --> 00:20:45,321
Speaker 1: all different directions. But you started doing a few robberies

410
00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:47,801
Speaker 1: with Steve though, I think back in the eighties, back

411
00:20:47,801 --> 00:20:48,481
Speaker 1: in the old days.

412
00:20:48,561 --> 00:20:52,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, it wasn't till the late eighties that I'm at Steve,

413
00:20:53,041 --> 00:20:56,281
Speaker 4: so probably only just worked together for about.

414
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,000
Speaker 1: Three four years. I think much quite success believe that period.

415
00:21:01,201 --> 00:21:04,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's good money around at the time. There were

416
00:21:04,481 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 4: a lot of different cruise operating in that era. A

417
00:21:07,761 --> 00:21:10,321
Speaker 4: lot of them went on to do really horrible things.

418
00:21:11,321 --> 00:21:15,641
Speaker 1: You're talking about Victor Pierce and Gary Abdullah, Mark Belatano

419
00:21:16,241 --> 00:21:17,241
Speaker 1: at Flemington Crue.

420
00:21:17,441 --> 00:21:20,321
Speaker 4: Yes, Fleming and Crue, but they're either cruise around two

421
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:21,921
Speaker 4: at the time. I just don't want to really say

422
00:21:21,921 --> 00:21:22,401
Speaker 4: who they are.

423
00:21:22,441 --> 00:21:27,160
Speaker 1: But yeah, and the robbery squad was diabolical. It was

424
00:21:27,201 --> 00:21:28,281
Speaker 1: a war on.

425
00:21:29,120 --> 00:21:31,801
Speaker 4: I was a little bit worried at the time, but

426
00:21:31,961 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 4: I just relaxed, stayed at home and I started off

427
00:21:35,521 --> 00:21:38,600
Speaker 4: for business. Just worked pretty hard for a few years,

428
00:21:38,801 --> 00:21:42,041
Speaker 4: so I kept right out of the limelight. You know

429
00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:47,161
Speaker 4: what I did after hours or other days.

430
00:21:45,241 --> 00:21:47,801
Speaker 1: You know, just to get a bit extra money. Because

431
00:21:47,840 --> 00:21:50,120
Speaker 1: people that I've met over the years, whether they'll be

432
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 1: shoplifters or robbers or kinds of cooks, really there's a

433
00:21:53,441 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 1: certain amount of adrenaline and a thrill that goes with

434
00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,281
Speaker 1: running into a bank or wherever it is.

435
00:22:00,521 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 4: You definitely get a highway.

436
00:22:02,241 --> 00:22:02,440
Speaker 1: You know.

437
00:22:02,521 --> 00:22:05,441
Speaker 4: It's only later in life that I've thought about the victims.

438
00:22:06,681 --> 00:22:09,961
Speaker 4: What I put some of those people through was just tolerable.

439
00:22:11,481 --> 00:22:13,481
Speaker 4: But at the time you don't think about these things.

440
00:22:13,521 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 4: You just think about the money side of it. So, yeah,

441
00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:20,080
Speaker 4: there was a lot of money around in the old days.

442
00:22:20,241 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 1: Do you remember any victims in particular, any jobs that

443
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:24,400
Speaker 1: you did that you would stick out to you that

444
00:22:24,481 --> 00:22:26,681
Speaker 1: you think, jeez, I'd like to go back and say

445
00:22:26,681 --> 00:22:28,481
Speaker 1: sorry or something like that. Yeah.

446
00:22:28,481 --> 00:22:34,761
Speaker 4: Well, obviously the guards from the n ninety Robbie that

447
00:22:34,761 --> 00:22:35,640
Speaker 4: I got convicted for.

448
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:36,801
Speaker 1: What was that one?

449
00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:41,760
Speaker 4: It was the Brambles in Port Melbourne, pointed graandle thereabouts,

450
00:22:42,761 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 4: and yeah, a lot to have spoken to them, just apologize.

451
00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:48,360
Speaker 1: So what happened on that day?

452
00:22:49,281 --> 00:22:52,081
Speaker 4: They used to stop for breakfast in a little cafe

453
00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:55,680
Speaker 4: in Port Melbourne. We knew about all this, of course,

454
00:22:55,721 --> 00:22:59,441
Speaker 4: we were told about it and insider and what we did.

455
00:22:59,441 --> 00:23:01,640
Speaker 4: We just run in there and took them out and

456
00:23:01,681 --> 00:23:03,921
Speaker 4: put them in the van and I drive the truck off.

457
00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,640
Speaker 4: Steve was in the back, yeah, and we're tying up

458
00:23:09,681 --> 00:23:11,961
Speaker 4: the guards, you know, taping them up, and then we

459
00:23:12,041 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 4: just drove to a deserted warehouse in Swallow Street, Port Melbourne,

460
00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:17,641
Speaker 4: and we left the van there.

461
00:23:17,681 --> 00:23:18,521
Speaker 1: We just emptied it.

462
00:23:18,481 --> 00:23:21,001
Speaker 4: Out into the car we had, and then we only

463
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:26,041
Speaker 4: drove maybe two three four kilometers to another house, dropped

464
00:23:26,041 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 4: all the money, and then we didn't go near it

465
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:33,561
Speaker 4: for about another week. So yeah, that's how that came about.

466
00:23:33,961 --> 00:23:36,440
Speaker 4: But those guards, they would have been terrified.

467
00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:37,321
Speaker 1: You know.

468
00:23:37,360 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 4: We tried to keep it as calm as possibly. You

469
00:23:39,521 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 4: just it's so hard to do that because the adrenaline

470
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,160
Speaker 4: is really pumping, really hard. And I nearly rolled the

471
00:23:46,201 --> 00:23:48,761
Speaker 4: truck going around the corner because I had n't driven

472
00:23:48,801 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 4: one before and it's a pretty big truck, and it

473
00:23:52,321 --> 00:23:56,761
Speaker 4: went up sideways around the corner and I very nearly

474
00:23:57,120 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 4: rolled it over. So it's quite funny.

475
00:23:59,921 --> 00:24:04,321
Speaker 1: Actually, he was thinking back, you're high on adrenaline and

476
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:05,880
Speaker 1: you're rushing away from the scene.

477
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,161
Speaker 4: And yeah, because I had to drive down that main

478
00:24:08,281 --> 00:24:10,921
Speaker 4: road around the corner from the cafe and we had

479
00:24:10,921 --> 00:24:12,761
Speaker 4: to turn left up this side street to get to

480
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,881
Speaker 4: Swallow Street, and that's where I did the left turn,

481
00:24:15,921 --> 00:24:19,921
Speaker 4: and I did it a bit too fast, so thankfully

482
00:24:19,961 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 4: I didn't roll it over right.

483
00:24:21,801 --> 00:24:25,241
Speaker 1: We got the money and fok back in nineteen ninety

484
00:24:25,360 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: was it was a big good money. Did you spend

485
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:29,481
Speaker 1: it all? What happens money? Yeah?

486
00:24:29,761 --> 00:24:34,401
Speaker 4: Just when overseas, just you do. You don't respect it

487
00:24:34,441 --> 00:24:37,721
Speaker 4: because it comes. It doesn't come easy, but it comes

488
00:24:37,761 --> 00:24:41,841
Speaker 4: in large amounts usually and you're just really spending it,

489
00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:43,961
Speaker 4: helping people giving it away.

490
00:24:45,241 --> 00:24:48,120
Speaker 1: I did quite a bit of that easy come, easy

491
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 1: go or not. It was come. It was buddy dangerous,

492
00:24:51,120 --> 00:24:55,521
Speaker 1: easy come, easy go. You won't have a seas for it,

493
00:24:55,521 --> 00:24:56,001
Speaker 1: didn't you.

494
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:57,801
Speaker 4: Yeah, I went overseas several times.

495
00:24:58,761 --> 00:25:00,361
Speaker 1: I think you were going to settle in Greece were

496
00:25:00,360 --> 00:25:01,321
Speaker 1: you're not in this buit. Yeah.

497
00:25:01,321 --> 00:25:05,001
Speaker 4: I wanted a little beach bar on costs. It's called

498
00:25:05,120 --> 00:25:08,081
Speaker 4: Magazine Bar. Yeah. I planned on living there, but then

499
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,120
Speaker 4: my wife at the time didn't like Greece. She couldn't

500
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,321
Speaker 4: live there a day longer and she said, that's it,

501
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,561
Speaker 4: I'm going back to Australia. I missed my family and

502
00:25:17,721 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 4: I just walked out of the bar and left it

503
00:25:20,041 --> 00:25:21,801
Speaker 4: to the guy that I was.

504
00:25:21,721 --> 00:25:23,161
Speaker 1: In partnership with a Greek guy.

505
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 4: And then yeah, came back to Australia and then of

506
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,561
Speaker 4: course I got arrested trying to go on a holiday

507
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,880
Speaker 4: with another girl. I was off to Fiji for a month.

508
00:25:32,921 --> 00:25:34,400
Speaker 4: I think it was. I think I paid up for

509
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 4: a better month, as you do when you've got all

510
00:25:36,681 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 4: this money.

511
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:39,120
Speaker 1: I think they are any I think you told me

512
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,481
Speaker 1: that that wife she ended up getting with a Greek

513
00:25:41,521 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 1: bloke and going back there, did she not? Yes? Yeah,

514
00:25:44,201 --> 00:25:46,880
Speaker 1: and lived there. Ironic, isn't it? Yeah? It is. It

515
00:25:46,961 --> 00:25:48,961
Speaker 1: is ironic because your life would have been different had

516
00:25:48,961 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: you just stayed there. And he's a really nice guy though.

517
00:25:52,241 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 4: I just probably wasn't ready to settle down at that

518
00:25:54,681 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 4: stage because of what I was involved in, money and

519
00:25:57,880 --> 00:25:59,121
Speaker 4: going out all the time.

520
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 1: You were a bit addicted to that lifestyle, yeah, I was.

521
00:26:03,481 --> 00:26:06,360
Speaker 4: You get addicted to the money, and when you haven't

522
00:26:06,521 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 4: got it, you tend to take a bit more of

523
00:26:08,481 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 4: a chance. But yeah, definitely the money. You do, you

524
00:26:11,801 --> 00:26:15,721
Speaker 4: become addicted to having money. I remember when I was young,

525
00:26:16,041 --> 00:26:18,961
Speaker 4: twelve or forteen years of age, I used to work

526
00:26:19,001 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 4: at all the sporting events at the MCG and I

527
00:26:21,761 --> 00:26:24,801
Speaker 4: used to make good money back then. Yeah, and I

528
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:26,921
Speaker 4: always seemed to have money. I worked at all those

529
00:26:26,961 --> 00:26:30,561
Speaker 4: events and other events. But yeah, I made good money

530
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 4: back then. So there was some weekends. I think I

531
00:26:34,001 --> 00:26:36,801
Speaker 4: was making like sixty dollars back then. I think that

532
00:26:36,921 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 4: was more than the average wage. So I was buying

533
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,721
Speaker 4: all the great runners and you know, all the good

534
00:26:42,721 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 4: footy equipment.

535
00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:44,521
Speaker 1: I had it all.

536
00:26:45,241 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 4: Funny thing, my father chopped up my boots because I

537
00:26:48,921 --> 00:26:52,481
Speaker 4: came home one day on Saturday night and I was

538
00:26:52,561 --> 00:26:55,680
Speaker 4: quite drunk and it was pretty late, and then I

539
00:26:55,721 --> 00:26:57,721
Speaker 4: got up in the morning and go and get ready

540
00:26:57,721 --> 00:27:00,801
Speaker 4: for the footy and he'd left them on boots on

541
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:04,321
Speaker 4: a chopping block in the yard and he actually chopped

542
00:27:04,321 --> 00:27:06,361
Speaker 4: them in half each one with an axe.

543
00:27:07,360 --> 00:27:11,201
Speaker 1: He wasn't a fool. You had a difficult relationship with him. Yes,

544
00:27:11,321 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: he abused you physically psychologically. Yeah. Yeah.

545
00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,120
Speaker 4: I used to get Bachelor of the time, buy him

546
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:19,761
Speaker 4: and hurt buy him.

547
00:27:20,681 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 1: And it was you. You were singled out for it

548
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:23,041
Speaker 1: wasn't your brother.

549
00:27:23,241 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 4: No, you never put a hand on my brother, never

550
00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:28,321
Speaker 4: never touched my brother, probably never even raised his voice

551
00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:31,440
Speaker 4: to him. But with me, it was just I was

552
00:27:31,481 --> 00:27:33,801
Speaker 4: the brunt of all his aggression and his anger, and

553
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 4: he used to hurt me a.

554
00:27:36,441 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: Couple of times.

555
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,801
Speaker 4: He probably tried to hurt Mum and I got involved there,

556
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 4: and one time I put him in hospital for a

557
00:27:43,721 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 4: whole week. And I was just that up pissed off

558
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 4: with him and upset and angry that I knew he

559
00:27:50,201 --> 00:27:51,481
Speaker 4: was going to do something to mum.

560
00:27:51,561 --> 00:27:54,041
Speaker 1: I just you know, I just let it all out.

561
00:27:54,721 --> 00:27:56,721
Speaker 1: Difficult childhood. And I'm not going to say this is

562
00:27:56,761 --> 00:27:58,721
Speaker 1: an excuse, because there's no excuse for these things, but

563
00:27:58,761 --> 00:28:01,160
Speaker 1: I think in the context to understand the background that

564
00:28:01,201 --> 00:28:05,321
Speaker 1: people have coming into crime. And you were also a

565
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:09,121
Speaker 1: champion schoolboy athlete. You're a good student, but you went

566
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:14,400
Speaker 1: to Thomas's Clifton Hill right Brothers, Christian Brothers Christian Brothers School,

567
00:28:14,481 --> 00:28:17,161
Speaker 1: and you were beaten up there as well. Yeah, I mean.

568
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,881
Speaker 4: Getting flapped in the face. All the students then used

569
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:21,521
Speaker 4: to get it, you know, it was only the ass

570
00:28:21,561 --> 00:28:24,641
Speaker 4: lookers that didn't get what they used to call the cuts, yeah,

571
00:28:25,001 --> 00:28:27,201
Speaker 4: the strap and they used to use the feather duster

572
00:28:27,281 --> 00:28:28,321
Speaker 4: as well across your butt.

573
00:28:29,120 --> 00:28:30,121
Speaker 1: It used to hurt.

574
00:28:30,921 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 4: And the cuts weren't that good either, Like you'd normally

575
00:28:33,721 --> 00:28:37,321
Speaker 4: get six three on each hand and they go halfway

576
00:28:37,360 --> 00:28:41,281
Speaker 4: up your arm, so they were quite long straps. I

577
00:28:41,281 --> 00:28:44,081
Speaker 4: won't say their name because they're probably still alive now,

578
00:28:44,161 --> 00:28:46,561
Speaker 4: but they were real assholes.

579
00:28:46,881 --> 00:28:49,801
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think it was institutionalized violence. And there was

580
00:28:49,841 --> 00:28:52,641
Speaker 1: a lot more. I mean, you didn't you weren't sexually abear, No,

581
00:28:52,921 --> 00:28:53,881
Speaker 1: A lot of people were.

582
00:28:54,161 --> 00:28:58,121
Speaker 4: The violence with them is just shocking. Yeah, And I

583
00:28:58,201 --> 00:29:00,121
Speaker 4: went with their marks all the time. The god that

584
00:29:00,241 --> 00:29:02,561
Speaker 4: used to sit in front of me, he was a

585
00:29:02,601 --> 00:29:05,561
Speaker 4: really quiet kid. It was really good, but he used

586
00:29:05,601 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 4: to get slapped at least a couple of times a

587
00:29:07,481 --> 00:29:09,681
Speaker 4: week and I couldn't understand what he was doing wrong

588
00:29:09,721 --> 00:29:12,241
Speaker 4: because he sat right in front of me. I said

589
00:29:12,241 --> 00:29:14,881
Speaker 4: to him one day, if he ever raises his hand

590
00:29:14,921 --> 00:29:17,761
Speaker 4: to me, I'm going to hurt him, and he said, nah, no, no,

591
00:29:17,841 --> 00:29:18,681
Speaker 4: you won't know, you won't.

592
00:29:18,921 --> 00:29:19,521
Speaker 1: Well I did.

593
00:29:19,881 --> 00:29:22,641
Speaker 4: I jumped up and slapped him, got rid of the desk,

594
00:29:23,641 --> 00:29:24,321
Speaker 4: through it.

595
00:29:24,801 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 1: And through a window or something. Yeah, yeah, so I

596
00:29:27,721 --> 00:29:30,881
Speaker 1: guess these experiences what happened with your dad, the school experiences,

597
00:29:30,921 --> 00:29:33,161
Speaker 1: other things. You grew up with a bit of a

598
00:29:33,241 --> 00:29:35,601
Speaker 1: chip on your shoulder. Do you think a divince of

599
00:29:35,641 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: authority or yeah, that could you could say that.

600
00:29:39,001 --> 00:29:41,921
Speaker 4: But to be copying shit like that at home too

601
00:29:41,961 --> 00:29:45,081
Speaker 4: from my father and then going to school and watching

602
00:29:45,121 --> 00:29:48,041
Speaker 4: all his other violence and everything really affected me. I

603
00:29:48,081 --> 00:29:49,961
Speaker 4: really felt for some of the kids that they used

604
00:29:50,001 --> 00:29:52,561
Speaker 4: to slap around. And I will say his name, his

605
00:29:52,601 --> 00:29:55,041
Speaker 4: brother English is the one that slapped me and hit me.

606
00:29:55,561 --> 00:29:57,481
Speaker 4: He was just an absolute asshole.

607
00:29:58,081 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 1: He's probably dead by now. No, I don't think he is.

608
00:30:00,521 --> 00:30:03,041
Speaker 4: I look him up on the internet about three or

609
00:30:03,041 --> 00:30:05,881
Speaker 4: four years ago and he was still alive. What would

610
00:30:05,881 --> 00:30:08,361
Speaker 4: you want to say to him if I heard him,

611
00:30:08,361 --> 00:30:10,041
Speaker 4: I just a lot to give him another slap across

612
00:30:10,081 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 4: the face. Probably wouldn't say anything to him. I love

613
00:30:13,041 --> 00:30:15,201
Speaker 4: to give him another good slap across around the head.

614
00:30:15,921 --> 00:30:18,521
Speaker 4: It's just an asshole with the do he treated students.

615
00:30:19,721 --> 00:30:22,041
Speaker 4: And they meant to be Christian brothers. You know that

616
00:30:22,161 --> 00:30:25,001
Speaker 4: they were ultra violent, and there was three or four

617
00:30:25,041 --> 00:30:29,161
Speaker 4: of them was pretty bad do the same thing. One

618
00:30:29,241 --> 00:30:31,681
Speaker 4: was famous for the cuts, one had to feather dust,

619
00:30:32,041 --> 00:30:34,641
Speaker 4: one used his hands, what brother English did to me.

620
00:30:36,081 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 4: It's just a madhouse. Really, it happened to all that stuff.

621
00:30:39,281 --> 00:30:41,881
Speaker 1: No shouldn't. It's been. It's being examined in detail now

622
00:30:41,921 --> 00:30:45,241
Speaker 1: in commissions of inquiry, various court cases and things. There's

623
00:30:45,241 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 1: so many cases. You know. I've met a few crooks

624
00:30:48,241 --> 00:30:51,041
Speaker 1: over the years who are now stepping up for compensation

625
00:30:51,161 --> 00:30:54,921
Speaker 1: payments when from what happened to them, sexual stuff in Tarana,

626
00:30:55,041 --> 00:30:57,641
Speaker 1: in Catholic boys' schools and so and so forth. You know,

627
00:30:57,961 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: I think we're going to understand the context of people's

628
00:31:00,001 --> 00:31:01,601
Speaker 1: offending a bit better. I'm not going to use it

629
00:31:01,601 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: as an excuse. And I listen to and you aren't.

630
00:31:04,641 --> 00:31:07,041
Speaker 1: Might I any listener who thinks you're making that as

631
00:31:07,041 --> 00:31:10,041
Speaker 1: an excuse, You're not. You know, I think that's really important.

632
00:31:10,041 --> 00:31:12,561
Speaker 1: I'm trying understand more about you as a person and

633
00:31:12,601 --> 00:31:13,361
Speaker 1: how these things.

634
00:31:13,521 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 4: What I'm trying to detail is how I used to

635
00:31:15,481 --> 00:31:17,641
Speaker 4: copy it at home and then I'll go to school

636
00:31:17,721 --> 00:31:20,361
Speaker 4: and see all this other violence, and eventually it happened

637
00:31:20,361 --> 00:31:20,521
Speaker 4: to me.

638
00:31:21,641 --> 00:31:24,361
Speaker 1: So yeah, it wasn't nice. So you didn't grow up

639
00:31:24,361 --> 00:31:26,321
Speaker 1: with that sense of security that a lot of kids

640
00:31:27,001 --> 00:31:27,401
Speaker 1: would have.

641
00:31:27,721 --> 00:31:30,881
Speaker 4: Generally, going to school should be a fun thing.

642
00:31:31,441 --> 00:31:33,561
Speaker 1: You've started to trade as a draftsman, Yeah.

643
00:31:33,761 --> 00:31:37,041
Speaker 4: The draftsmen there for quite a few years, so mechanical

644
00:31:37,121 --> 00:31:42,161
Speaker 4: services draftsmen. So I could still be doing that today.

645
00:31:42,681 --> 00:31:45,521
Speaker 4: You know, if I hadn't have chosen this other path.

646
00:31:45,881 --> 00:31:48,601
Speaker 1: Why did I choose the path? Do you think? Just money?

647
00:31:49,041 --> 00:31:50,281
Speaker 1: Just money? Just the money?

648
00:31:51,561 --> 00:31:53,960
Speaker 4: You know, once you've had it, you always send to

649
00:31:54,041 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 4: want it again, and you spend it so easily that

650
00:31:57,161 --> 00:31:58,601
Speaker 4: you know you need to go out and get it

651
00:31:58,681 --> 00:32:00,881
Speaker 4: again because it doesn't last very long.

652
00:32:01,321 --> 00:32:03,121
Speaker 1: Was not amount of money, you know, you can spend

653
00:32:03,121 --> 00:32:05,841
Speaker 1: it in a few months. I've heard that many times.

654
00:32:06,081 --> 00:32:08,281
Speaker 1: People couldn't believe. And I've done a lot of work

655
00:32:08,281 --> 00:32:09,961
Speaker 1: on the Kangaroo Gang. The shop lift just went to

656
00:32:10,001 --> 00:32:13,641
Speaker 1: Britain and they were stealing millions every year and they

657
00:32:13,641 --> 00:32:16,641
Speaker 1: would have nothing, they would have nothing, you know, but

658
00:32:16,681 --> 00:32:18,561
Speaker 1: by the end of the day often they'd have spent

659
00:32:18,601 --> 00:32:20,241
Speaker 1: all their money. It's incredible, you know. So that's a

660
00:32:20,281 --> 00:32:22,081
Speaker 1: real addiction. And the adrenaline like.

661
00:32:22,081 --> 00:32:24,441
Speaker 4: Life and restaurants and all the stuff that they did

662
00:32:24,601 --> 00:32:25,641
Speaker 4: was all pretty good.

663
00:32:25,801 --> 00:32:28,161
Speaker 1: And they brought some color and movement to a very

664
00:32:28,201 --> 00:32:31,081
Speaker 1: dour England of those days, you know. And the people

665
00:32:31,081 --> 00:32:33,561
Speaker 1: I've met, even the coppers like them. Actually they had

666
00:32:33,601 --> 00:32:36,121
Speaker 1: respects to them because they didn't hurt anybody. It didn't

667
00:32:36,121 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: hear anyone.

668
00:32:36,481 --> 00:32:38,561
Speaker 4: It was sleight of hand. It was done.

669
00:32:38,841 --> 00:32:41,361
Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, finally they talk about Dash has

670
00:32:41,401 --> 00:32:43,961
Speaker 1: one good yarn. There was Arthur Delaney and the fibber,

671
00:32:44,121 --> 00:32:46,801
Speaker 1: Jack Warren, who was the legend here was Melbourne guy,

672
00:32:47,521 --> 00:32:50,720
Speaker 1: but one of my ex partners. It got so easy

673
00:32:50,881 --> 00:32:52,881
Speaker 1: robbing all these stores in London that they decided to

674
00:32:52,921 --> 00:32:55,761
Speaker 1: have a competition one day and that everyone would see

675
00:32:55,761 --> 00:32:57,441
Speaker 1: what they could steal in one day and come back

676
00:32:57,481 --> 00:33:00,281
Speaker 1: by the evening and everyone was stolen and all kinds

677
00:33:00,321 --> 00:33:02,361
Speaker 1: of things, you know, jewels and furs and the rest

678
00:33:02,401 --> 00:33:05,161
Speaker 1: of it. Ring and Arthur Delaney and the fibber were

679
00:33:05,201 --> 00:33:07,081
Speaker 1: late back. And finally they roll it around the corner

680
00:33:07,161 --> 00:33:10,281
Speaker 1: in a great big removal van and they jump out

681
00:33:10,321 --> 00:33:13,361
Speaker 1: and in these uniforms, you know, and the truck was

682
00:33:13,401 --> 00:33:16,961
Speaker 1: full of a whole stately country home and contents, the

683
00:33:17,001 --> 00:33:19,601
Speaker 1: whole thing, right, and they say, how the hell this happened?

684
00:33:19,601 --> 00:33:22,521
Speaker 1: And and Arthur says, listen, we stole the uniforms, they

685
00:33:22,561 --> 00:33:27,401
Speaker 1: gave us the truck. There's a sort of people that

686
00:33:27,441 --> 00:33:27,801
Speaker 1: you were.

687
00:33:27,681 --> 00:33:30,801
Speaker 4: Growing up with and you know on the tail end

688
00:33:30,801 --> 00:33:33,761
Speaker 4: of it all, yeah, I read about them. Oh some

689
00:33:34,041 --> 00:33:36,321
Speaker 4: good guys and girls.

690
00:33:36,161 --> 00:33:37,881
Speaker 1: That's some admiration for them, I must say, or even

691
00:33:37,881 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: know their books.

692
00:33:38,441 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 4: You know, there was this like a second generation of

693
00:33:41,521 --> 00:33:43,801
Speaker 4: them too. There was I've got to know a couple

694
00:33:43,881 --> 00:33:44,921
Speaker 4: of them pretty well.

695
00:33:45,601 --> 00:33:48,921
Speaker 1: They loved it, they did, and they certainly understood that

696
00:33:48,921 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: what you talk about, the addiction to the money and

697
00:33:51,041 --> 00:33:54,721
Speaker 1: the lifestyle. Very few ended up with anything. Very few.

698
00:33:54,801 --> 00:33:58,321
Speaker 1: The best one was probably we Jimmy Lloyd, who I

699
00:33:58,401 --> 00:34:01,081
Speaker 1: think he still had the first farthing ever stole and

700
00:34:01,641 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: he put it all away and his kids went to

701
00:34:04,401 --> 00:34:07,201
Speaker 1: the university and their professionals. You know, he didn't want

702
00:34:07,201 --> 00:34:10,081
Speaker 1: his kids to go through what he did. So you

703
00:34:10,081 --> 00:34:13,561
Speaker 1: come back from from Greece and you get pinched.

704
00:34:13,161 --> 00:34:16,641
Speaker 4: Pinched a few months later, so I was actually going

705
00:34:16,681 --> 00:34:20,561
Speaker 4: on the holiday to Fiji, and I said to them,

706
00:34:20,921 --> 00:34:22,480
Speaker 4: like when they got me to the airport, I said,

707
00:34:22,481 --> 00:34:23,921
Speaker 4: you could have waited till I come back.

708
00:34:24,081 --> 00:34:28,081
Speaker 1: You knew I'd be back. They just laughed. So you

709
00:34:28,121 --> 00:34:30,041
Speaker 1: get jail for that. What happened?

710
00:34:30,401 --> 00:34:32,721
Speaker 4: This is nineteen ninety Yeah, Yeah, I end up doing

711
00:34:32,801 --> 00:34:36,721
Speaker 4: fourteen months. Not long after that, I did fourteen months

712
00:34:36,801 --> 00:34:40,441
Speaker 4: helping out some friends try and recover some money. I

713
00:34:40,561 --> 00:34:42,801
Speaker 4: was sort of documented with the cops and all that stuff,

714
00:34:42,801 --> 00:34:48,081
Speaker 4: and then I got out in late ninety one, and

715
00:34:48,201 --> 00:34:52,521
Speaker 4: of course the airport Robbie was in July of two.

716
00:34:52,761 --> 00:34:54,201
Speaker 1: And how did the first come up? How did that

717
00:34:54,241 --> 00:34:57,321
Speaker 1: first come on your radar? Steve had been drinking in.

718
00:34:57,281 --> 00:35:01,761
Speaker 4: A hotel in South Melbourne and a couple of their

719
00:35:01,801 --> 00:35:06,121
Speaker 4: guards used to frequent there drink there, and he started

720
00:35:06,121 --> 00:35:08,361
Speaker 4: talking to one of the guards who was a younger guy,

721
00:35:09,161 --> 00:35:13,201
Speaker 4: and he told Steve all about this robbery, you know,

722
00:35:13,401 --> 00:35:15,001
Speaker 4: and had to do it and all the money that

723
00:35:15,121 --> 00:35:18,121
Speaker 4: was involved, And of course Steve's ears pricked up, and

724
00:35:18,161 --> 00:35:21,081
Speaker 4: he came and told me about it. Then over the

725
00:35:21,121 --> 00:35:23,521
Speaker 4: space of a few months we went and looked at

726
00:35:23,561 --> 00:35:26,841
Speaker 4: it quite readily, and I think it was May third,

727
00:35:27,001 --> 00:35:30,801
Speaker 4: nineteen ninety that we got that one. So it was

728
00:35:30,841 --> 00:35:31,401
Speaker 4: good money.

729
00:35:32,001 --> 00:35:35,081
Speaker 1: That was the the Brambles. Yeah, but after you've come

730
00:35:35,081 --> 00:35:37,961
Speaker 1: out of jail and the airport job comes up, how

731
00:35:37,961 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: did the airport job first come up?

732
00:35:39,921 --> 00:35:43,801
Speaker 4: I think through Steve again, like one of the guards

733
00:35:43,841 --> 00:35:48,241
Speaker 4: again gave us some inside knowledge of this money that

734
00:35:48,401 --> 00:35:50,641
Speaker 4: used to be dropped off at the airport, put on

735
00:35:50,681 --> 00:35:51,921
Speaker 4: a plane go to Mordua.

736
00:35:53,201 --> 00:35:55,721
Speaker 1: We thought it might have been like six or eight million.

737
00:35:55,801 --> 00:35:59,041
Speaker 4: We were actually the money was only about I think

738
00:35:59,121 --> 00:36:01,201
Speaker 4: one point two million, and that was a bit of

739
00:36:01,241 --> 00:36:02,841
Speaker 4: a shock as we expected a lot.

740
00:36:02,721 --> 00:36:04,841
Speaker 1: More because this was money that was being taken out

741
00:36:05,241 --> 00:36:07,441
Speaker 1: build Drew to go in ATMs. I believe, well, I

742
00:36:07,441 --> 00:36:08,601
Speaker 1: don't know about that, but it was.

743
00:36:08,801 --> 00:36:11,041
Speaker 4: I know it was put on a plane and taken

744
00:36:11,081 --> 00:36:12,801
Speaker 4: them more durer for banks.

745
00:36:12,881 --> 00:36:15,761
Speaker 1: That's all I knew. And what I understand this was

746
00:36:15,841 --> 00:36:19,041
Speaker 1: where if people know Melbourne Airport, this is where terminal

747
00:36:19,081 --> 00:36:22,721
Speaker 1: four is today alongside the other two terminal the anset

748
00:36:22,841 --> 00:36:24,601
Speaker 1: right terminal and paint the picture.

749
00:36:25,041 --> 00:36:28,841
Speaker 3: What was the security The guards that actually dropped the

750
00:36:28,841 --> 00:36:32,401
Speaker 3: money off weren't allowed to be armed outside of the

751
00:36:32,441 --> 00:36:36,001
Speaker 3: truck with some federal matter, So they got out of

752
00:36:36,001 --> 00:36:39,521
Speaker 3: this armor truck with no guns on their hips and

753
00:36:39,521 --> 00:36:42,481
Speaker 3: they just walked in these bags and money that we

754
00:36:42,481 --> 00:36:44,801
Speaker 3: thought would have been millions, but it turned out about

755
00:36:44,801 --> 00:36:46,881
Speaker 3: one point two million I think.

756
00:36:46,761 --> 00:36:48,481
Speaker 1: It was, But I think the trick with the amount

757
00:36:48,521 --> 00:36:51,161
Speaker 1: of money there was that was going to ATMs, and

758
00:36:51,201 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 1: therefore there had to be a lot of smaller denominations

759
00:36:53,481 --> 00:36:56,481
Speaker 1: in there. Uh huh, So you might have had more notes,

760
00:36:57,001 --> 00:36:58,361
Speaker 1: but a smaller total.

761
00:36:58,481 --> 00:37:00,641
Speaker 4: Quite a bit of weight in one of the bags.

762
00:37:01,041 --> 00:37:03,681
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was probably that bad, right, so, And I

763
00:37:03,681 --> 00:37:06,521
Speaker 1: think that's what you didn't know was that it wasn't

764
00:37:06,561 --> 00:37:08,841
Speaker 1: gonna be as big as your thought, and dragging these

765
00:37:08,881 --> 00:37:11,121
Speaker 1: bags away was going to be a challenge physically.

766
00:37:11,081 --> 00:37:13,161
Speaker 4: We'd be able to pick up these bags and just

767
00:37:13,361 --> 00:37:14,921
Speaker 4: run to the back of the van and throw them

768
00:37:14,961 --> 00:37:16,121
Speaker 4: in the van and off we'd go.

769
00:37:16,721 --> 00:37:18,601
Speaker 1: And how many times had you been out there to

770
00:37:18,641 --> 00:37:19,881
Speaker 1: sort of check out what happened?

771
00:37:20,481 --> 00:37:23,681
Speaker 4: I think about six or eight weeks they're about. We'd

772
00:37:23,681 --> 00:37:25,761
Speaker 4: go out there and just watch it and work out

773
00:37:25,801 --> 00:37:30,161
Speaker 4: what time they arrived. And they're always pretty accurate too

774
00:37:30,241 --> 00:37:33,041
Speaker 4: with their timing and all that stuff. So on the

775
00:37:33,161 --> 00:37:36,161
Speaker 4: day they're about ten or fifteen minutes late normally, did

776
00:37:36,201 --> 00:37:39,121
Speaker 4: they get there maybe just after one point thirty, right,

777
00:37:39,321 --> 00:37:40,241
Speaker 4: And to paint the picture.

778
00:37:40,521 --> 00:37:43,121
Speaker 1: There was no cameras back in those days, and I

779
00:37:43,201 --> 00:37:45,561
Speaker 1: think so you could you could surveil the place from

780
00:37:45,601 --> 00:37:48,161
Speaker 1: where from the car park or something. Yeah, we've normal

781
00:37:48,281 --> 00:37:48,521
Speaker 1: used to.

782
00:37:48,761 --> 00:37:51,041
Speaker 4: I mean it's documented in court stuff. Normally used to

783
00:37:51,041 --> 00:37:54,241
Speaker 4: walk around with a clipboard. Sometimes he'd wear a suit,

784
00:37:54,321 --> 00:37:56,841
Speaker 4: sometimes he didn't, And I'd be the same.

785
00:37:57,081 --> 00:37:58,281
Speaker 1: You know, we wouldn't stand together.

786
00:37:58,321 --> 00:38:00,241
Speaker 4: We'd just go off and our separate waves and then

787
00:38:00,281 --> 00:38:03,121
Speaker 4: meet up somewhere else back at the car. We never

788
00:38:03,201 --> 00:38:06,881
Speaker 4: saw anything about police been there, Like, we had no

789
00:38:07,001 --> 00:38:11,881
Speaker 4: idea that we were being watched. In the phone intercepts

790
00:38:12,321 --> 00:38:15,321
Speaker 4: that apparently they could pick up that Steve did a

791
00:38:15,361 --> 00:38:19,281
Speaker 4: lot of talking on the phone too much, but never

792
00:38:19,401 --> 00:38:22,201
Speaker 4: discussed the actual target. But they knew we were up

793
00:38:22,241 --> 00:38:25,521
Speaker 4: to something and they just kept watching this and they

794
00:38:25,601 --> 00:38:29,161
Speaker 4: knew what we were doing. They should have stopped it beforehand.

795
00:38:29,521 --> 00:38:33,441
Speaker 4: Even the kins and RMS dance just seemed to Hevy.

796
00:38:33,761 --> 00:38:36,761
Speaker 4: She gave them a bit of a cook the police,

797
00:38:36,841 --> 00:38:38,841
Speaker 4: like what in your wreston when you had all this

798
00:38:38,921 --> 00:38:42,001
Speaker 4: information and it would have saved all this drama. Norm

799
00:38:42,041 --> 00:38:45,161
Speaker 4: wouldn't be dead and you know all these witnesses and

800
00:38:45,201 --> 00:38:49,121
Speaker 4: that wouldn't have been put in fear And was normal.

801
00:38:49,041 --> 00:38:53,441
Speaker 1: The leader or was it you're all doing in particular roles? No?

802
00:38:53,441 --> 00:38:56,721
Speaker 4: None, wasn't the leader. I actually went and saw Norm

803
00:38:56,921 --> 00:38:59,881
Speaker 4: about it. There was another guy that was involved and

804
00:38:59,921 --> 00:39:02,241
Speaker 4: he bailed out in the end. He got scared and

805
00:39:02,281 --> 00:39:04,721
Speaker 4: I thought, shit, you know, then it was actually me

806
00:39:04,761 --> 00:39:08,001
Speaker 4: and I went there to ask Norm if he was interested,

807
00:39:08,561 --> 00:39:09,921
Speaker 4: and he said, look, you know, we'll go out and

808
00:39:09,921 --> 00:39:11,281
Speaker 4: have a look at it and we'll take it from there.

809
00:39:11,601 --> 00:39:15,761
Speaker 1: And then of course he's dead now. So yeah, I

810
00:39:15,841 --> 00:39:18,161
Speaker 1: understand you feel pretty guilty. I know you do, but

811
00:39:18,281 --> 00:39:21,201
Speaker 1: I mean I guess Normal was the same issues as

812
00:39:21,241 --> 00:39:23,241
Speaker 1: you did. He love the money, he loved the excitement,

813
00:39:23,241 --> 00:39:25,961
Speaker 1: and he was a very conservative, risk averse sort of person.

814
00:39:26,281 --> 00:39:28,641
Speaker 1: It sounds funny for an arm robber, but the way

815
00:39:28,641 --> 00:39:30,161
Speaker 1: he would approach things was very methodical.

816
00:39:30,201 --> 00:39:32,161
Speaker 4: He didn't go out and spend money like I did.

817
00:39:32,681 --> 00:39:36,321
Speaker 4: It was just really quiet and worked and this day

818
00:39:36,361 --> 00:39:37,561
Speaker 4: happened and it was the end of it.

819
00:39:37,681 --> 00:39:42,401
Speaker 1: So yeah, So I believe there was another robbery beforehand

820
00:39:43,041 --> 00:39:47,001
Speaker 1: where a firearm was acquiet. Is that correct?

821
00:39:47,721 --> 00:39:51,801
Speaker 4: Yes? And there was a Mackers about a week before,

822
00:39:51,961 --> 00:39:55,361
Speaker 4: that's right, Yeah, McDonald's about a week before the airport one.

823
00:39:55,881 --> 00:39:57,761
Speaker 1: And people are going to say, oh, you know McDonald's,

824
00:39:58,081 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 1: but apparently we.

825
00:39:58,841 --> 00:40:00,761
Speaker 4: Were missed about two hundred and fifty thousand because there

826
00:40:00,801 --> 00:40:03,121
Speaker 4: was a long weekend and there's about two hudred and

827
00:40:03,161 --> 00:40:06,961
Speaker 4: fifty thousand in the safe. I said to Steve as

828
00:40:06,961 --> 00:40:09,241
Speaker 4: a joke, I said, why didn't you get them to

829
00:40:09,321 --> 00:40:10,641
Speaker 4: open the other safe?

830
00:40:10,761 --> 00:40:11,441
Speaker 1: What happened?

831
00:40:12,001 --> 00:40:14,281
Speaker 4: He goes, mate, I didn't think. He said they opened

832
00:40:14,281 --> 00:40:16,721
Speaker 4: the bottom safe is there? And I thought that was it.

833
00:40:17,321 --> 00:40:18,881
Speaker 4: I said, you know, there was two hundred and fifty

834
00:40:18,921 --> 00:40:20,081
Speaker 4: grand in that top safe.

835
00:40:20,761 --> 00:40:23,721
Speaker 1: So we just laughed, and I think you got the

836
00:40:24,001 --> 00:40:26,521
Speaker 1: You got a thirty eight there guns thirty eight I think,

837
00:40:26,601 --> 00:40:28,521
Speaker 1: and that was the gun that you used at the airport.

838
00:40:28,561 --> 00:40:31,161
Speaker 1: I believe, because there was quite an arsenal you put

839
00:40:31,201 --> 00:40:35,001
Speaker 1: together for that airport job. What were the firearms and

840
00:40:35,041 --> 00:40:35,721
Speaker 1: why did you have.

841
00:40:35,681 --> 00:40:40,001
Speaker 4: Long arms seven point six y two, a little machine

842
00:40:40,001 --> 00:40:44,721
Speaker 4: gun basically just handguns, and then these other two long

843
00:40:44,841 --> 00:40:48,601
Speaker 4: arms that would have been used to immobilize any car

844
00:40:48,721 --> 00:40:52,081
Speaker 4: that folded us or chased us, you know, like the

845
00:40:52,121 --> 00:40:55,121
Speaker 4: police wanted everyone to believe that it was to shoot the

846
00:40:55,161 --> 00:40:57,321
Speaker 4: police and all that stuff. It wasn't for any of that.

847
00:40:57,481 --> 00:41:00,441
Speaker 4: It was just if someone followed us, you disabled the

848
00:41:00,561 --> 00:41:02,681
Speaker 4: car and then you continue on your marry.

849
00:41:02,441 --> 00:41:05,401
Speaker 1: Away because you'd also chosen a particular kind of egal

850
00:41:05,481 --> 00:41:07,321
Speaker 1: with these sort of thoughts in mind. What was it

851
00:41:07,521 --> 00:41:10,961
Speaker 1: panel van? Yeah, with opening doors, the two doors at

852
00:41:10,961 --> 00:41:13,081
Speaker 1: the back that opened up, which would have allowed you

853
00:41:13,161 --> 00:41:15,521
Speaker 1: to if you were being pursued. I think there was

854
00:41:15,561 --> 00:41:17,601
Speaker 1: a tripod there as well. No, there's no trip but

855
00:41:17,721 --> 00:41:19,081
Speaker 1: that's still the myth.

856
00:41:19,681 --> 00:41:19,881
Speaker 4: Good.

857
00:41:20,001 --> 00:41:22,121
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, tripod. There was a lot of stuff in

858
00:41:22,121 --> 00:41:25,441
Speaker 1: the papers was wrong to shell papers and stories correct.

859
00:41:25,481 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 4: You know you're quite honest with what you write.

860
00:41:28,161 --> 00:41:31,241
Speaker 1: Well, I'm as good as my sources. I've got a

861
00:41:31,281 --> 00:41:33,521
Speaker 1: lot of respect for you to thank you. I appreciate that,

862
00:41:33,601 --> 00:41:35,161
Speaker 1: and this is this is why we're sitting here, no

863
00:41:35,321 --> 00:41:37,441
Speaker 1: respect for you, the journey you've made, the regrets, in

864
00:41:37,441 --> 00:41:39,601
Speaker 1: the honesty that you're telling this story with. I really

865
00:41:39,641 --> 00:41:42,761
Speaker 1: do appreciate that. This is I think.

866
00:41:43,361 --> 00:41:46,161
Speaker 4: Everything I've said, like you know, I would have liked

867
00:41:46,201 --> 00:41:47,161
Speaker 4: my life to be different.

868
00:41:47,561 --> 00:41:51,281
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'm sure it wasn't. And that's it. Since

869
00:41:51,321 --> 00:41:51,801
Speaker 1: I've got.

870
00:41:51,681 --> 00:41:55,441
Speaker 4: Released in ninety nine, I've tried to really just be

871
00:41:55,521 --> 00:41:56,201
Speaker 4: a good person.

872
00:41:56,641 --> 00:41:58,881
Speaker 1: So you've got the van and you've also got other

873
00:41:58,881 --> 00:42:01,401
Speaker 1: getaway cars. I think there was quite an elaborate plan

874
00:42:01,721 --> 00:42:03,721
Speaker 1: there was. They didn't know about half of it.

875
00:42:03,881 --> 00:42:06,441
Speaker 4: What we were going to do there, We're going to

876
00:42:06,481 --> 00:42:09,721
Speaker 4: take the van to a little disused factory not far away.

877
00:42:09,761 --> 00:42:11,481
Speaker 4: I think it was about three or four kilometers from

878
00:42:11,521 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 4: the extra airport in Airport West. Yeah, and what we'd

879
00:42:16,001 --> 00:42:18,441
Speaker 4: done the police didn'tn't even know about this still to

880
00:42:18,481 --> 00:42:21,801
Speaker 4: this day. We'd cut the bars on one of the windows,

881
00:42:22,281 --> 00:42:24,921
Speaker 4: got in there, prepared the door so that it was

882
00:42:25,001 --> 00:42:28,041
Speaker 4: easy to pull up with the chain, but we bent

883
00:42:28,121 --> 00:42:31,721
Speaker 4: the bars back on the window so you couldn't even tell. Well,

884
00:42:31,761 --> 00:42:33,721
Speaker 4: they didn't even know about this, and what we're going

885
00:42:33,801 --> 00:42:35,641
Speaker 4: to do. We're going to just go one was going

886
00:42:35,681 --> 00:42:37,921
Speaker 4: to go through the window, open the door, put the

887
00:42:38,081 --> 00:42:40,081
Speaker 4: van in there and close were all up.

888
00:42:40,201 --> 00:42:40,881
Speaker 1: That would have been it.

889
00:42:41,401 --> 00:42:43,521
Speaker 4: So we probably would have left it there for a

890
00:42:43,521 --> 00:42:46,921
Speaker 4: little while and gone back probably later that night, and

891
00:42:47,081 --> 00:42:48,161
Speaker 4: just collected the money.

892
00:42:48,601 --> 00:42:50,881
Speaker 1: What was the plan from there, Well, we'll probably go

893
00:42:50,921 --> 00:42:51,761
Speaker 1: to Queensland.

894
00:42:52,281 --> 00:42:55,081
Speaker 4: So I think Norm had an eye on a boat

895
00:42:55,121 --> 00:42:57,081
Speaker 4: did he really liked, And I said, well, we'll pitch

896
00:42:57,121 --> 00:42:59,521
Speaker 4: in and buy it together. You know, I wouldn't mind

897
00:42:59,721 --> 00:43:01,641
Speaker 4: lifting on a little boat for a while up in

898
00:43:01,721 --> 00:43:05,841
Speaker 4: Queen's Land. So that was the plan anyway, just something

899
00:43:05,881 --> 00:43:08,241
Speaker 4: we discussed. It wasn't anything real concrete.

900
00:43:08,681 --> 00:43:10,921
Speaker 1: Well sure, because I think that you're thinking you're going

901
00:43:10,961 --> 00:43:13,481
Speaker 1: to get five million or something you'd be thinking. I

902
00:43:13,521 --> 00:43:15,641
Speaker 1: believe also the police did hear somebody on one of

903
00:43:15,641 --> 00:43:18,361
Speaker 1: the phone taps. I think I was singing where in

904
00:43:18,401 --> 00:43:20,441
Speaker 1: the money? Where in the money?

905
00:43:20,441 --> 00:43:23,801
Speaker 4: That was me singing that. Yeah, it was me saying

906
00:43:23,921 --> 00:43:25,521
Speaker 4: that when that was in the lead up. I think

907
00:43:25,681 --> 00:43:29,601
Speaker 4: now it was the Port Melbourne robbery. That's where that

908
00:43:29,801 --> 00:43:32,561
Speaker 4: came out of it, because I was driving the brambles

909
00:43:32,801 --> 00:43:36,401
Speaker 4: truck and I did. I did start singing that. I

910
00:43:36,401 --> 00:43:38,161
Speaker 4: don't know why. It just came to me and I

911
00:43:38,161 --> 00:43:42,721
Speaker 4: started singing, We're in the money, We're in the money,

912
00:43:42,961 --> 00:43:44,361
Speaker 4: and we were for.

913
00:43:44,321 --> 00:43:47,361
Speaker 1: A little while. How did they pick that up? What

914
00:43:47,441 --> 00:43:52,321
Speaker 1: was the probably the guards or oh the guards heard it? Okay, yeah, right,

915
00:43:52,401 --> 00:43:54,841
Speaker 1: So it was not an electronic surveillance or anything, okay,

916
00:43:54,921 --> 00:43:56,161
Speaker 1: because that's the other story I head that it was

917
00:43:56,201 --> 00:43:59,921
Speaker 1: over electronic surveillance. But again these are the facts. So

918
00:43:59,961 --> 00:44:01,681
Speaker 1: you're in the money, you got You've got some money,

919
00:44:01,721 --> 00:44:03,201
Speaker 1: but not as much money as you should have had

920
00:44:03,401 --> 00:44:07,641
Speaker 1: from that Port Melbourne, well, at least the McDonald's either McDonald's.

921
00:44:07,681 --> 00:44:10,281
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think he came out with about three thousand

922
00:44:10,281 --> 00:44:14,201
Speaker 4: because I waited outside with the security guard and mobilized

923
00:44:14,281 --> 00:44:15,561
Speaker 4: him and he's got him to sit in the car

924
00:44:15,641 --> 00:44:16,361
Speaker 4: and just relax.

925
00:44:16,721 --> 00:44:18,281
Speaker 1: And then of course there was all these.

926
00:44:18,121 --> 00:44:20,641
Speaker 4: Staff that had finished work and I didn't realize it

927
00:44:20,721 --> 00:44:23,841
Speaker 4: was about eighteen or twenty kids, and you know, I

928
00:44:23,921 --> 00:44:27,881
Speaker 4: really regret that they were probably terrified.

929
00:44:28,841 --> 00:44:31,841
Speaker 1: So here's this guy with this wig, look like some

930
00:44:32,001 --> 00:44:36,081
Speaker 1: lunatic because part of the I'm going to say the theater,

931
00:44:36,161 --> 00:44:39,001
Speaker 1: but the dramatic effect of these things was to strike

932
00:44:39,041 --> 00:44:41,721
Speaker 1: him with a fear and get people to cooperate with

933
00:44:41,801 --> 00:44:43,041
Speaker 1: what you wanted to.

934
00:44:44,121 --> 00:44:48,401
Speaker 4: With the identification in particular, you could do little things

935
00:44:48,481 --> 00:44:50,721
Speaker 4: like that, like with a bright orange wig, and that

936
00:44:50,961 --> 00:44:53,761
Speaker 4: maybe all the people would think about, but I never

937
00:44:54,041 --> 00:44:55,361
Speaker 4: think about the other side of it.

938
00:44:55,761 --> 00:44:58,561
Speaker 1: How scared these poor kids would have been, you know.

939
00:44:58,641 --> 00:45:01,041
Speaker 4: And they all look like they are now in because

940
00:45:01,041 --> 00:45:02,521
Speaker 4: they're all school kids.

941
00:45:02,881 --> 00:45:05,761
Speaker 1: So yeah, I still feel this today. I feel guilty

942
00:45:05,801 --> 00:45:10,041
Speaker 1: about all that. So yeah, fair enough, it's down time

943
00:45:10,521 --> 00:45:12,801
Speaker 1: to do the robbery. Where did you meet What was

944
00:45:12,801 --> 00:45:13,801
Speaker 1: the lead up on the day.

945
00:45:14,561 --> 00:45:16,681
Speaker 4: We had a safe house, and we thought it was

946
00:45:16,721 --> 00:45:19,881
Speaker 4: a safe house. We didn't know that everything had been

947
00:45:19,921 --> 00:45:23,921
Speaker 4: told to the police about who was there and what

948
00:45:23,961 --> 00:45:26,441
Speaker 4: we were going to do. And apparently they were in

949
00:45:26,481 --> 00:45:29,361
Speaker 4: the house opposite the safe house what we thought was

950
00:45:29,361 --> 00:45:31,841
Speaker 4: a safe house, and they were watching everything we did,

951
00:45:31,881 --> 00:45:35,041
Speaker 4: comings and goings. And I think they've got the residents

952
00:45:35,121 --> 00:45:37,761
Speaker 4: and moved them out, put them somewhere else, and they

953
00:45:37,841 --> 00:45:41,961
Speaker 4: stayed in his house. The police the surveillance ones. Anyway,

954
00:45:42,401 --> 00:45:42,721
Speaker 4: do you.

955
00:45:42,641 --> 00:45:45,481
Speaker 1: Think someone gave you up? Yeah? Do you know who?

956
00:45:46,081 --> 00:45:49,361
Speaker 4: Look, things have been said in that Corn's inquest. I

957
00:45:49,361 --> 00:45:52,361
Speaker 4: don't know how to say he's dead. There were two brothers.

958
00:45:52,881 --> 00:45:55,201
Speaker 4: That's the way it was brought up in the coroner's

959
00:45:55,241 --> 00:46:00,001
Speaker 4: court by one of the embarristers, and I agreed. I said, yeah,

960
00:46:00,321 --> 00:46:02,321
Speaker 4: I said there were two brothers, and I said one

961
00:46:02,361 --> 00:46:05,441
Speaker 4: of them is a dog, and I believe that he

962
00:46:05,641 --> 00:46:09,641
Speaker 4: was the one that gave the information to the police,

963
00:46:10,001 --> 00:46:13,481
Speaker 4: which then from there they worked back and they found

964
00:46:13,721 --> 00:46:16,801
Speaker 4: that it was one of the security guards, David Lapworth.

965
00:46:16,841 --> 00:46:19,761
Speaker 4: I think his name was Paul Baker. So I mean,

966
00:46:19,801 --> 00:46:24,081
Speaker 4: if that bloke's dead, can you say his name then? Moran, Jason,

967
00:46:24,561 --> 00:46:29,041
Speaker 4: Jason Moran, Yeah, gave you up? Do you think, yes, dog, Yeah,

968
00:46:29,081 --> 00:46:31,561
Speaker 4: that's the way they operated. You know. I even had

969
00:46:31,761 --> 00:46:34,801
Speaker 4: one of their family members have said things to me

970
00:46:35,081 --> 00:46:39,081
Speaker 4: like you'd be surprised how they operate, and I said

971
00:46:39,081 --> 00:46:41,721
Speaker 4: to her, I said, nah, I wouldn't be surprised. I

972
00:46:41,801 --> 00:46:43,841
Speaker 4: know how they worked because.

973
00:46:43,521 --> 00:46:45,481
Speaker 1: They were deep in with the police at the time,

974
00:46:45,601 --> 00:46:48,561
Speaker 1: and that this is valuable information because the story has

975
00:46:48,561 --> 00:46:53,121
Speaker 1: always been that the weapons were supplied by the Moran brothers,

976
00:46:53,161 --> 00:46:55,881
Speaker 1: Mark and Jason. No, no, no, no, that's not true.

977
00:46:55,961 --> 00:46:58,001
Speaker 1: But there were some bulletproof vests. I think that you

978
00:46:58,121 --> 00:46:58,921
Speaker 1: discussed with them.

979
00:46:59,401 --> 00:47:03,641
Speaker 4: He kept bringing up my house, Jason wanting these vests returned.

980
00:47:04,241 --> 00:47:07,521
Speaker 4: I thought that I bought them because he owed me

981
00:47:07,641 --> 00:47:08,961
Speaker 4: money and all that when he died.

982
00:47:09,681 --> 00:47:13,241
Speaker 1: How much you are you only fifteen grand So Jason

983
00:47:13,641 --> 00:47:16,881
Speaker 1: gives you up? I think so. Yeah. And then from

984
00:47:16,881 --> 00:47:17,561
Speaker 1: that moment on.

985
00:47:18,441 --> 00:47:21,601
Speaker 4: Police will deny it, everyone will deny it, but you know,

986
00:47:21,841 --> 00:47:24,961
Speaker 4: everyone sort of knows thews since his death, or how

987
00:47:25,001 --> 00:47:27,601
Speaker 4: he operated and how they operated as a family.

988
00:47:28,401 --> 00:47:30,481
Speaker 1: Well, I certainly didn't get any good wraps. As you know,

989
00:47:30,561 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 1: I was talking to Carl Williams saw that period after

990
00:47:33,481 --> 00:47:36,881
Speaker 1: he hit Jason murdered and also Market died as well.

991
00:47:37,001 --> 00:47:39,881
Speaker 1: And the picture that he painted was a family that

992
00:47:40,081 --> 00:47:46,081
Speaker 1: was operating largely out of corrupt police contacts.

993
00:47:46,081 --> 00:47:48,881
Speaker 4: And getting chemicals a link from them. Yeah that was

994
00:47:48,881 --> 00:47:49,481
Speaker 4: a secret.

995
00:47:49,641 --> 00:47:52,481
Speaker 1: So yeah, and that was that was Sergeant Wayne Strawn

996
00:47:52,521 --> 00:47:55,001
Speaker 1: of the drug squad. He ended up doing a long

997
00:47:55,041 --> 00:47:58,721
Speaker 1: lagging as a result. Was too okay, as you're planning

998
00:47:58,841 --> 00:48:01,480
Speaker 1: this big job, the cops are following you every move

999
00:48:01,521 --> 00:48:03,361
Speaker 1: and you've had a chance to see the evidence. It

1000
00:48:03,441 --> 00:48:05,841
Speaker 1: must have been quite sort of shocking when you think

1001
00:48:05,881 --> 00:48:07,601
Speaker 1: then you were exactly what you're about to do.

1002
00:48:08,121 --> 00:48:10,841
Speaker 4: And I had my motorbike too then like to keep

1003
00:48:10,881 --> 00:48:13,201
Speaker 4: up me with the motorbike. I couldn't believe it like

1004
00:48:13,481 --> 00:48:15,481
Speaker 4: they did. I didn't know. They had to probably had

1005
00:48:15,481 --> 00:48:18,681
Speaker 4: a transponder on it, as did all the other vehicles

1006
00:48:18,721 --> 00:48:21,641
Speaker 4: and stuff, so I knew where we were going, you

1007
00:48:21,681 --> 00:48:24,401
Speaker 4: know what time everything, because they had the house across

1008
00:48:24,401 --> 00:48:26,721
Speaker 4: the road. It a sort of moved out of my

1009
00:48:27,561 --> 00:48:30,561
Speaker 4: home or olds living to stay in a safe house.

1010
00:48:31,041 --> 00:48:33,041
Speaker 4: You get pretty stressed and all that before you go

1011
00:48:33,121 --> 00:48:37,241
Speaker 4: out to work. If you've become very utable and argumentative,

1012
00:48:37,361 --> 00:48:40,961
Speaker 4: and you know it's just the build up before you

1013
00:48:41,041 --> 00:48:44,521
Speaker 4: go and do something like that is high octane.

1014
00:48:45,081 --> 00:48:50,401
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the details. I mean, you were wearing boiler suits,

1015
00:48:50,441 --> 00:48:52,601
Speaker 1: I believe, but you also had other clothes underneath.

1016
00:48:52,961 --> 00:48:57,921
Speaker 4: Now I had a jacket, yeah, and pants, but yeah, no,

1017
00:48:58,041 --> 00:49:01,241
Speaker 4: there was nothing like underneath to change into or anything.

1018
00:49:01,241 --> 00:49:03,361
Speaker 4: It was just a blue zip up jacket. And we

1019
00:49:03,401 --> 00:49:06,641
Speaker 4: all had the same jackets. Something we tried to do

1020
00:49:06,721 --> 00:49:10,561
Speaker 4: to all be the same, have the same clothing, you know,

1021
00:49:10,561 --> 00:49:12,961
Speaker 4: because then they'll get mixed up with the heights and

1022
00:49:13,001 --> 00:49:13,481
Speaker 4: this and that.

1023
00:49:14,241 --> 00:49:17,761
Speaker 1: So that was the idea behind all that. And you've

1024
00:49:17,801 --> 00:49:21,401
Speaker 1: gone with the Michael Jackson masks. I believe whose choice

1025
00:49:21,441 --> 00:49:23,241
Speaker 1: was his mind?

1026
00:49:23,761 --> 00:49:25,881
Speaker 4: Norman and I had to Michael Jackson and I got

1027
00:49:25,921 --> 00:49:29,601
Speaker 4: Steve the Madonna mask. He wasn't happy about that. He

1028
00:49:29,721 --> 00:49:32,641
Speaker 4: was not happy about that. I think he died it

1029
00:49:32,721 --> 00:49:37,001
Speaker 4: later on or but that's how it was. To Michael

1030
00:49:37,081 --> 00:49:38,761
Speaker 4: Jackson's I couldn't get a third one.

1031
00:49:40,401 --> 00:49:43,281
Speaker 1: He was driving. He was the driver. He was the driver. Yeah,

1032
00:49:43,321 --> 00:49:47,201
Speaker 1: so took off. It's on. How do you pick the day?

1033
00:49:48,241 --> 00:49:50,521
Speaker 4: We know what day it's going to be there, and

1034
00:49:50,561 --> 00:49:52,641
Speaker 4: we know roughly what time they're going to be there,

1035
00:49:52,721 --> 00:49:54,361
Speaker 4: so you get there a little bit earlier.

1036
00:49:54,721 --> 00:49:58,001
Speaker 1: And we just parked the van. I can't remember what steved.

1037
00:49:58,081 --> 00:49:59,721
Speaker 4: Maybe you got out and went for a little walk

1038
00:49:59,841 --> 00:50:02,761
Speaker 4: for a while, just had to look around, and then

1039
00:50:03,081 --> 00:50:04,961
Speaker 4: got back in the van, and it was getting closer

1040
00:50:05,121 --> 00:50:07,081
Speaker 4: to the time it was ready for the goat.

1041
00:50:07,841 --> 00:50:10,041
Speaker 1: Then the van arrived and that was it.

1042
00:50:10,841 --> 00:50:14,361
Speaker 4: They drove in and we waited for them to remove

1043
00:50:14,441 --> 00:50:17,881
Speaker 4: these big red bags full of money and go into

1044
00:50:17,921 --> 00:50:20,921
Speaker 4: the office. And that's when Steve hit the reverse and

1045
00:50:21,641 --> 00:50:24,321
Speaker 4: pulled up right at the because we knew they weren't armed,

1046
00:50:24,561 --> 00:50:27,361
Speaker 4: and pulled up right near the stairs, and Norman and

1047
00:50:27,401 --> 00:50:29,841
Speaker 4: I ran up the stairs and ran inside and grabbed

1048
00:50:29,841 --> 00:50:32,521
Speaker 4: the bags especially could, and that was it.

1049
00:50:32,601 --> 00:50:35,241
Speaker 1: We took them down. And what was the scene inside

1050
00:50:35,281 --> 00:50:36,201
Speaker 1: the terminal, It was.

1051
00:50:36,361 --> 00:50:39,361
Speaker 4: Well, there were a couple of staff members, but I

1052
00:50:39,401 --> 00:50:41,641
Speaker 4: don't think they believed what was happening. I think even

1053
00:50:41,641 --> 00:50:43,961
Speaker 4: in their statements they said they thought it was a

1054
00:50:44,121 --> 00:50:48,881
Speaker 4: movie or some series enactment. But yeah, and the two

1055
00:50:48,921 --> 00:50:51,401
Speaker 4: guards were sort of shot. So we just grabbed the

1056
00:50:51,401 --> 00:50:53,561
Speaker 4: money and ran out of there. But it was all

1057
00:50:53,561 --> 00:50:55,921
Speaker 4: pretty quiet in there, and the bags were heavy.

1058
00:50:56,001 --> 00:50:56,361
Speaker 1: The bag.

1059
00:50:56,521 --> 00:50:59,721
Speaker 4: One bag in particular was really heavy. I'd say they'd big,

1060
00:50:59,761 --> 00:51:02,801
Speaker 4: the one with all the lighter bills. When I grabbed it,

1061
00:51:02,801 --> 00:51:05,321
Speaker 4: that's on. When I grabbed I was like, you there's

1062
00:51:05,321 --> 00:51:08,041
Speaker 4: some money in here, because I could barely lift it up.

1063
00:51:08,761 --> 00:51:11,881
Speaker 4: So I was dragging it back to the van, Norman

1064
00:51:12,001 --> 00:51:14,441
Speaker 4: throwing the other two bags in, I think, and then

1065
00:51:14,481 --> 00:51:17,361
Speaker 4: he helped me with my bag, and then I spun

1066
00:51:17,441 --> 00:51:20,121
Speaker 4: around as Norman's already just inside the van, and I

1067
00:51:20,921 --> 00:51:22,681
Speaker 4: turned around and sat on the.

1068
00:51:23,041 --> 00:51:23,761
Speaker 1: Edge of the door.

1069
00:51:24,401 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 4: Doors were still open at that stage. But Steve took

1070
00:51:28,001 --> 00:51:31,321
Speaker 4: off too quickly, you know, instead of taking off gently

1071
00:51:31,401 --> 00:51:33,881
Speaker 4: and just getting into it, he just hit the gas

1072
00:51:34,641 --> 00:51:37,041
Speaker 4: and Norman and I were trying to hang on. But

1073
00:51:37,081 --> 00:51:38,881
Speaker 4: then we came tumbling out the back of the van

1074
00:51:39,681 --> 00:51:41,881
Speaker 4: and one of the bags ended up coming out with us,

1075
00:51:42,521 --> 00:51:44,641
Speaker 4: and that's when it all happened.

1076
00:51:44,681 --> 00:51:47,481
Speaker 1: It all just went to shit. So you know, I

1077
00:51:47,601 --> 00:51:51,761
Speaker 1: got shot. We'll get through that. But just one point though,

1078
00:51:51,801 --> 00:51:54,041
Speaker 1: before you get there, like you've left the doors open,

1079
00:51:54,121 --> 00:51:56,841
Speaker 1: because back to the earlier plan about anyone following you,

1080
00:51:57,241 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 1: So the idea was to have the doors open, sid

1081
00:51:59,401 --> 00:52:02,161
Speaker 1: have you come. We were going to pull the doors closed.

1082
00:52:02,361 --> 00:52:05,121
Speaker 4: I guess you could see through the back windows had

1083
00:52:05,201 --> 00:52:07,961
Speaker 4: little scratches where we hadn't painted them all out. We

1084
00:52:08,161 --> 00:52:10,401
Speaker 4: left little lines that we could watch out the back.

1085
00:52:11,241 --> 00:52:13,281
Speaker 4: And if only one had been follow us, yeah, we

1086
00:52:13,401 --> 00:52:17,001
Speaker 4: just would have kicked the door open and disabled that car, right,

1087
00:52:17,121 --> 00:52:18,001
Speaker 4: that would have been it.

1088
00:52:18,841 --> 00:52:20,961
Speaker 1: But Steve's taken off. Do you think Steve had already

1089
00:52:21,001 --> 00:52:24,441
Speaker 1: seen police converging by this point, No, he didn't know.

1090
00:52:24,561 --> 00:52:28,601
Speaker 4: About them until he just hit the corner and went

1091
00:52:28,681 --> 00:52:30,561
Speaker 4: to turn out. That was from the car park of

1092
00:52:30,641 --> 00:52:34,081
Speaker 4: the Ansett depot. It's calle, a big car park, and

1093
00:52:34,161 --> 00:52:36,721
Speaker 4: he went screaming around that corner, and that's of course

1094
00:52:36,761 --> 00:52:38,961
Speaker 4: where Norman and I fell out, and we were actually

1095
00:52:39,121 --> 00:52:40,001
Speaker 4: chasing the van.

1096
00:52:39,961 --> 00:52:44,361
Speaker 1: Screaming stop, stop, stop, and then bammed.

1097
00:52:45,201 --> 00:52:48,041
Speaker 4: I didn't even see the white van come in because

1098
00:52:48,321 --> 00:52:51,081
Speaker 4: their doors are all on droulics, so you know they're

1099
00:52:51,121 --> 00:52:53,561
Speaker 4: all bang open straight away because.

1100
00:52:53,321 --> 00:52:56,641
Speaker 1: The cops, the SOOG Special Operations Group had like a

1101
00:52:56,761 --> 00:52:59,841
Speaker 1: plumbers van. Nothing And where did they come from?

1102
00:53:00,441 --> 00:53:04,041
Speaker 4: Well, I don't know where they came from, but any evidence,

1103
00:53:04,121 --> 00:53:06,881
Speaker 4: I think they were parked like about fifty meters away

1104
00:53:07,001 --> 00:53:09,681
Speaker 4: and then started to move up slowly when they knew

1105
00:53:09,961 --> 00:53:12,041
Speaker 4: it was happening, and it all just went to shit.

1106
00:53:12,361 --> 00:53:16,881
Speaker 1: So so you're out on the road chasing after the van,

1107
00:53:17,241 --> 00:53:18,881
Speaker 1: just still in the car park.

1108
00:53:19,081 --> 00:53:21,881
Speaker 4: Norm got shot he was still in the car park,

1109
00:53:22,321 --> 00:53:25,641
Speaker 4: and I got shot just inside the car park. So

1110
00:53:26,721 --> 00:53:29,721
Speaker 4: I think that Norm actually jumped out of the van

1111
00:53:29,961 --> 00:53:30,601
Speaker 4: to help.

1112
00:53:30,481 --> 00:53:34,241
Speaker 1: Me because he needed you to get out with him

1113
00:53:34,241 --> 00:53:35,841
Speaker 1: as well. He wasn't gonna leave you behind. No, I

1114
00:53:35,921 --> 00:53:39,081
Speaker 1: never would have done that. So from here we have

1115
00:53:39,161 --> 00:53:41,121
Speaker 1: to sort of rely on evidence that was given in

1116
00:53:41,201 --> 00:53:45,201
Speaker 1: coroner's courts and so forth. That Norm is standing in

1117
00:53:45,281 --> 00:53:48,281
Speaker 1: the car park, as you say, he's got his magnum

1118
00:53:48,401 --> 00:53:49,961
Speaker 1: three fifty seven magnum.

1119
00:53:49,921 --> 00:53:50,001
Speaker 4: And.

1120
00:53:52,401 --> 00:53:55,881
Speaker 1: George Hatley directs him to throw the weapon down. He

1121
00:53:56,401 --> 00:53:58,801
Speaker 1: goes to put the weapon down, then he brings it up,

1122
00:53:58,881 --> 00:54:01,681
Speaker 1: and then George open fire and another officer or two

1123
00:54:01,801 --> 00:54:03,721
Speaker 1: I think, open fire, and he's killed instantly.

1124
00:54:04,001 --> 00:54:06,401
Speaker 4: That's if you want to I believe the police version

1125
00:54:06,481 --> 00:54:09,001
Speaker 4: of events, which I don't think is true. Well, you

1126
00:54:09,041 --> 00:54:11,921
Speaker 4: were there, so yeah, but I didn't see that part

1127
00:54:11,961 --> 00:54:12,121
Speaker 4: of it.

1128
00:54:12,241 --> 00:54:14,561
Speaker 1: But I knew that something was going on.

1129
00:54:14,681 --> 00:54:16,281
Speaker 4: I could just at the corner of my eye, and

1130
00:54:16,321 --> 00:54:19,361
Speaker 4: then I heard all these blasts, and then of course

1131
00:54:19,401 --> 00:54:21,601
Speaker 4: I felt them, so I knew what was happening.

1132
00:54:21,681 --> 00:54:25,841
Speaker 1: Then you're aware that Norm's gone down, Yeah, I don't know.

1133
00:54:25,921 --> 00:54:26,761
Speaker 1: I had this feeling.

1134
00:54:26,841 --> 00:54:29,480
Speaker 4: I knew he was gone, you know, because I could

1135
00:54:29,601 --> 00:54:31,921
Speaker 4: just see I was laying on the ground, and I

1136
00:54:32,001 --> 00:54:34,121
Speaker 4: wasn't talking to the barsards that were leaning over me

1137
00:54:34,201 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 4: in saying this fucking horrible shit to me, the soggies. Yeah,

1138
00:54:38,481 --> 00:54:41,241
Speaker 4: I just glanced out the corner of my eye on

1139
00:54:41,401 --> 00:54:43,881
Speaker 4: the right side of me, and I could see Norm's feet.

1140
00:54:44,481 --> 00:54:48,201
Speaker 4: They were up in the air, so apparently he'd landed

1141
00:54:48,281 --> 00:54:50,201
Speaker 4: on his face and then they spun him over.

1142
00:54:50,481 --> 00:54:53,161
Speaker 1: I suppose checked for other weapons or whatever they did

1143
00:54:53,481 --> 00:54:56,521
Speaker 1: so he couldn't have anything. Let's take a step back,

1144
00:54:56,561 --> 00:54:58,441
Speaker 1: because of course Norm was shot first.

1145
00:54:59,121 --> 00:55:01,321
Speaker 4: Then I think it was simultaneous. I don't think it

1146
00:55:01,561 --> 00:55:04,881
Speaker 4: was the first. So let's talk about when you were

1147
00:55:05,441 --> 00:55:10,441
Speaker 4: what happened. Well, I felt straight away this blast in

1148
00:55:10,561 --> 00:55:15,641
Speaker 4: my shoulder. I'm shit that it's quite a bit, and

1149
00:55:15,761 --> 00:55:18,081
Speaker 4: it was all happening so quickly, like there was no

1150
00:55:18,681 --> 00:55:22,801
Speaker 4: waiting for They say that they called out stop, stop stopping. Yeah,

1151
00:55:22,801 --> 00:55:25,601
Speaker 4: they might have done that while I was shooting you know,

1152
00:55:25,801 --> 00:55:27,881
Speaker 4: as they do. There's soggy is that's what they do.

1153
00:55:27,961 --> 00:55:31,041
Speaker 4: They killed people if they have to. You got one

1154
00:55:31,121 --> 00:55:34,401
Speaker 4: shot off, no, that's what they say. But I don't

1155
00:55:34,441 --> 00:55:36,481
Speaker 4: think I did. I mean, that could have easily been

1156
00:55:37,001 --> 00:55:39,481
Speaker 4: I don't know how that came about. There was one

1157
00:55:40,401 --> 00:55:44,281
Speaker 4: bullet in my revolver that yeah, had been discharged.

1158
00:55:44,321 --> 00:55:46,961
Speaker 1: So I still don't know to this day what happened.

1159
00:55:47,001 --> 00:55:48,721
Speaker 4: They seem to think that I had it in my

1160
00:55:48,881 --> 00:55:52,201
Speaker 4: hand and then when I was being shot, I've pulled

1161
00:55:52,241 --> 00:55:55,281
Speaker 4: the trigger as a reflex, But I don't believe that.

1162
00:55:55,601 --> 00:55:58,401
Speaker 1: So because it was reported the next day actually in

1163
00:55:58,441 --> 00:56:00,361
Speaker 1: the paper of the Age, that you would fire a

1164
00:56:00,401 --> 00:56:03,441
Speaker 1: shot into the ground. Yeah, so you were shooting at them.

1165
00:56:04,281 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 4: I don't even believe shot went into the ground either,

1166
00:56:07,761 --> 00:56:09,480
Speaker 4: because when I came out at the back of that van,

1167
00:56:09,601 --> 00:56:12,441
Speaker 4: I didn't have a gun in me. So you know

1168
00:56:12,721 --> 00:56:15,641
Speaker 4: all the stories they did about this and Norm and

1169
00:56:15,801 --> 00:56:18,041
Speaker 4: me and we had guns and we pointed at.

1170
00:56:18,041 --> 00:56:20,801
Speaker 1: Him at all bullshit, And you didn't have a gun.

1171
00:56:20,841 --> 00:56:22,481
Speaker 1: I didn't have a gun on me. Now where was

1172
00:56:22,521 --> 00:56:23,521
Speaker 1: the gun? I don't know.

1173
00:56:23,641 --> 00:56:24,841
Speaker 4: It could have been in the back of the van,

1174
00:56:25,161 --> 00:56:27,201
Speaker 4: could have been thrown out the back of the van

1175
00:56:27,281 --> 00:56:28,041
Speaker 4: when you.

1176
00:56:28,041 --> 00:56:31,761
Speaker 1: Fell out too quick, and so you get shot how

1177
00:56:31,801 --> 00:56:36,521
Speaker 1: many times five with shotgun rounds solid blood. I think

1178
00:56:36,601 --> 00:56:39,321
Speaker 1: the first was a solid and the rest were sjs.

1179
00:56:40,281 --> 00:56:42,001
Speaker 1: What's an SG for about.

1180
00:56:41,881 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 4: Nine balls inside it about the size of a thirty

1181
00:56:45,001 --> 00:56:48,841
Speaker 4: eight caliber each of the balls and the SS and

1182
00:56:48,921 --> 00:56:50,481
Speaker 4: the first one I think was a solid one that

1183
00:56:50,561 --> 00:56:52,361
Speaker 4: hit me in the shoulder, But I could be wrong.

1184
00:56:52,401 --> 00:56:56,681
Speaker 4: It could have been a memory plays tricks now, But yeah,

1185
00:56:56,681 --> 00:57:00,561
Speaker 4: I remember getting shot first in the shoulder, and then

1186
00:57:00,881 --> 00:57:02,601
Speaker 4: I didn't know what was happening because it went.

1187
00:57:02,601 --> 00:57:05,561
Speaker 1: So fast, like you bang, bang, bang, bang bang, and.

1188
00:57:05,841 --> 00:57:07,201
Speaker 4: That was the end of it, like it had been

1189
00:57:07,321 --> 00:57:09,521
Speaker 4: shot all across the back end of the back end

1190
00:57:09,561 --> 00:57:12,441
Speaker 4: of my shoulder, you know. And they say that I

1191
00:57:12,881 --> 00:57:15,201
Speaker 4: turned and pointed out a gun at them or did

1192
00:57:15,241 --> 00:57:17,841
Speaker 4: a shot, Like how do I get all these shots

1193
00:57:17,881 --> 00:57:20,241
Speaker 4: in the back of me if I'm facing them?

1194
00:57:21,561 --> 00:57:24,521
Speaker 1: You know, all my holes are in my back.

1195
00:57:25,121 --> 00:57:27,681
Speaker 4: So I've got the one from the shoulder that came

1196
00:57:27,761 --> 00:57:29,801
Speaker 4: in on about forty five. The grand all they worked

1197
00:57:29,801 --> 00:57:32,561
Speaker 4: out and it blew my left shoulder out, but the

1198
00:57:32,641 --> 00:57:36,681
Speaker 4: other one just tore across my back and into my back, and.

1199
00:57:36,761 --> 00:57:38,641
Speaker 1: You had a tattoo on that left shoulder.

1200
00:57:38,801 --> 00:57:41,761
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've got to tell it was good luck with

1201
00:57:41,881 --> 00:57:46,361
Speaker 4: them and now with the cards, all this left is luck.

1202
00:57:47,321 --> 00:57:50,961
Speaker 4: So the good has gone and the luck has just remained.

1203
00:57:51,681 --> 00:57:53,401
Speaker 4: I think the surgeon might have had something to do

1204
00:57:53,481 --> 00:57:56,801
Speaker 4: with that, so, because he did say something to me

1205
00:57:56,921 --> 00:58:00,681
Speaker 4: later on the lader down the road about the tattoo

1206
00:58:00,761 --> 00:58:01,681
Speaker 4: when he was looking at it.

1207
00:58:01,841 --> 00:58:07,121
Speaker 1: One of my many hospital visits. Because Damien, here was

1208
00:58:07,281 --> 00:58:12,721
Speaker 1: the shooter in your case, and he fired five shots.

1209
00:58:13,001 --> 00:58:16,441
Speaker 1: He still had three shots left in his magazine. I understand.

1210
00:58:17,281 --> 00:58:22,281
Speaker 4: No, his shotgun, there were five bullets. There's nothing left

1211
00:58:23,001 --> 00:58:25,321
Speaker 4: like he shot it five times. And what he said

1212
00:58:25,481 --> 00:58:28,881
Speaker 4: was that he remembers the first three, but he doesn't

1213
00:58:28,961 --> 00:58:31,761
Speaker 4: remember the other two where he shot them.

1214
00:58:32,641 --> 00:58:35,721
Speaker 2: So that's his story, so that I know where they

1215
00:58:36,121 --> 00:58:41,721
Speaker 2: they went them in my back. What a moment, and

1216
00:58:41,801 --> 00:58:43,961
Speaker 2: you remember everything, don't you know? It was a frenzy

1217
00:58:44,041 --> 00:58:44,721
Speaker 2: and there was everything.

1218
00:58:44,721 --> 00:58:46,601
Speaker 4: I remember when I was on the ground. You know

1219
00:58:46,721 --> 00:58:48,681
Speaker 4: what they were saying to me, leaning over me, and

1220
00:58:50,321 --> 00:58:52,641
Speaker 4: I just shit about out of a fucking field.

1221
00:58:52,721 --> 00:58:55,361
Speaker 1: Dog. That was the main cruster that they were all

1222
00:58:55,641 --> 00:58:58,121
Speaker 1: at me. It has a fucking field has a fucking field.

1223
00:58:58,561 --> 00:59:00,601
Speaker 1: Then one of them said some other stuff about my

1224
00:59:00,801 --> 00:59:03,041
Speaker 1: wife and maybe my daughter too.

1225
00:59:03,081 --> 00:59:06,281
Speaker 4: I can't remember exactly, but yeah, they said there have

1226
00:59:06,361 --> 00:59:07,801
Speaker 4: some pretty horrible things to me.

1227
00:59:08,401 --> 00:59:09,921
Speaker 1: So and I was way in the van. But what

1228
00:59:10,001 --> 00:59:11,201
Speaker 1: I did, I just blocked them out.

1229
00:59:12,001 --> 00:59:13,761
Speaker 4: I thought, if I'm going to say I, I have

1230
00:59:13,841 --> 00:59:16,801
Speaker 4: to just focus on my breathing because I was having

1231
00:59:16,921 --> 00:59:19,041
Speaker 4: trouble breathing at that stage. Every time I took a

1232
00:59:19,081 --> 00:59:22,081
Speaker 4: breath that it was gurgling, but it's in my lungs,

1233
00:59:22,801 --> 00:59:25,481
Speaker 4: and I just focused on my breathing, little short.

1234
00:59:25,281 --> 00:59:26,161
Speaker 1: Breasts in and out.

1235
00:59:26,681 --> 00:59:31,281
Speaker 4: One of them had put a bandage into my left shoulder,

1236
00:59:31,321 --> 00:59:33,241
Speaker 4: and I thought, shit, he's put a band he's going

1237
00:59:33,281 --> 00:59:34,801
Speaker 4: to bandage it for me, and then he hit me

1238
00:59:34,881 --> 00:59:38,721
Speaker 4: with his knee. I can laugh about it now, Yeah,

1239
00:59:38,801 --> 00:59:42,961
Speaker 4: but he sunk his knee and my shoulder, so thank you.

1240
00:59:44,481 --> 00:59:47,081
Speaker 4: And you've lost most of that shoulder. Yeah, I don't

1241
00:59:47,121 --> 00:59:48,721
Speaker 4: have much of the shoulder less. It's only about ten

1242
00:59:48,761 --> 00:59:52,401
Speaker 4: percent of adulthood that's left. So that's the only thing

1243
00:59:52,481 --> 00:59:55,601
Speaker 4: really holding the arm on. There's no head of the

1244
00:59:55,681 --> 00:59:59,361
Speaker 4: humans has gone. Yeah, the whole joint is gone.

1245
01:00:00,081 --> 01:00:02,561
Speaker 1: So said down to about the middle of my arm.

1246
01:00:03,521 --> 01:00:06,001
Speaker 1: What are the lasting injuries do you have from that moment?

1247
01:00:06,641 --> 01:00:09,241
Speaker 4: Just well, I can't move the certain things I can't

1248
01:00:09,321 --> 01:00:12,441
Speaker 4: do with the left arm, and the right arm gets

1249
01:00:12,441 --> 01:00:14,561
Speaker 4: a bit sore sometimes too, from all the bullets that

1250
01:00:15,081 --> 01:00:18,161
Speaker 4: because a lot of the bullets came out through my

1251
01:00:18,681 --> 01:00:21,041
Speaker 4: into my back, through my lung and then went out

1252
01:00:21,201 --> 01:00:24,481
Speaker 4: into my arm pitch and out out the side of

1253
01:00:24,521 --> 01:00:27,321
Speaker 4: my arm pits. So there's quite a lot of bullets

1254
01:00:27,361 --> 01:00:30,681
Speaker 4: still in me. Yeah, that's how that all went down.

1255
01:00:31,361 --> 01:00:33,321
Speaker 1: So your ping when you go through.

1256
01:00:34,681 --> 01:00:37,281
Speaker 4: At the airport, everyone always says that does that happened?

1257
01:00:37,601 --> 01:00:40,961
Speaker 4: It doesn't happen. So I've got a lot of other

1258
01:00:41,081 --> 01:00:44,961
Speaker 4: steel in me. So different surgeries must have been touch

1259
01:00:45,001 --> 01:00:46,241
Speaker 4: and go. They must have thought that you.

1260
01:00:46,841 --> 01:00:49,361
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, they were being I'll die. You can just

1261
01:00:49,481 --> 01:00:50,641
Speaker 1: tell able what they were saying.

1262
01:00:50,761 --> 01:00:54,521
Speaker 4: And even in the van, Kuros got in the ambulance

1263
01:00:54,601 --> 01:00:57,041
Speaker 4: with me. I mean, he denies all this ship, but

1264
01:00:57,841 --> 01:01:00,561
Speaker 4: I know he was asking me questions, and the main

1265
01:01:00,681 --> 01:01:02,961
Speaker 4: question was who was a friend with you?

1266
01:01:03,521 --> 01:01:05,961
Speaker 1: It's still there. Who was your friend? Who was your friend?

1267
01:01:06,761 --> 01:01:10,361
Speaker 1: I didn't answer him, referring to norm to normal I

1268
01:01:10,401 --> 01:01:11,201
Speaker 1: didn't know it was normal.

1269
01:01:11,361 --> 01:01:15,001
Speaker 4: No, of course they did. But he just kept wanting

1270
01:01:15,081 --> 01:01:17,161
Speaker 4: me to talk, and obviously had to talk to him.

1271
01:01:18,081 --> 01:01:20,081
Speaker 4: So and that was curis curis.

1272
01:01:20,481 --> 01:01:23,481
Speaker 1: One are the cops. Meanwhile, Steve Asling thinks he's going

1273
01:01:23,561 --> 01:01:26,481
Speaker 1: to get away, but they got an out of cordon.

1274
01:01:27,041 --> 01:01:29,321
Speaker 4: He got around the corner and they hit him head

1275
01:01:29,401 --> 01:01:31,441
Speaker 4: on with a full wheel drive and made a big

1276
01:01:31,521 --> 01:01:32,241
Speaker 4: mess with the van.

1277
01:01:32,921 --> 01:01:35,321
Speaker 1: So he survived that. I believe he hit his mouth

1278
01:01:35,401 --> 01:01:38,041
Speaker 1: on the steering will lost teeth and all. No cushion

1279
01:01:38,321 --> 01:01:42,121
Speaker 1: that happened, No isn't okay, So he wasn't too bad.

1280
01:01:42,641 --> 01:01:44,281
Speaker 4: No, you think he had a bit of blood around

1281
01:01:44,281 --> 01:01:46,721
Speaker 4: his mouth, but that was about it. He just kept

1282
01:01:46,801 --> 01:01:49,721
Speaker 4: going and then they mounted the embankment in the middle

1283
01:01:49,761 --> 01:01:52,481
Speaker 4: of the road and came up and just got him

1284
01:01:52,561 --> 01:01:55,441
Speaker 4: head on. So I don't even think he would have

1285
01:01:55,521 --> 01:01:59,041
Speaker 4: realized that they were coming. It would have happened really quick.

1286
01:01:59,481 --> 01:02:01,881
Speaker 4: So a lot of people say that, you know, he

1287
01:02:01,921 --> 01:02:03,961
Speaker 4: shouldn't have done this, he shouldn't have driven off and

1288
01:02:04,001 --> 01:02:07,801
Speaker 4: all that, But you know, I'd say to anybody in

1289
01:02:07,921 --> 01:02:11,561
Speaker 4: that situation, you know, you really think you'd do that

1290
01:02:12,201 --> 01:02:14,761
Speaker 4: and not drive off. Of course, you would not me,

1291
01:02:15,121 --> 01:02:16,961
Speaker 4: he said to me. I was driving off because I

1292
01:02:17,081 --> 01:02:19,401
Speaker 4: wanted to get the money out of there, and I said, good,

1293
01:02:20,601 --> 01:02:22,641
Speaker 4: he's still had two bags of money in the back. Yeah,

1294
01:02:23,121 --> 01:02:24,641
Speaker 4: there would have been a bit of money in there.

1295
01:02:24,681 --> 01:02:28,641
Speaker 4: But then of course that ended pretty quickly. And then

1296
01:02:28,681 --> 01:02:30,681
Speaker 4: you're in custody. Well, you're in hospital for long period,

1297
01:02:30,681 --> 01:02:32,321
Speaker 4: I'd imagine. Yeah, I was in the hospital, was only

1298
01:02:32,321 --> 01:02:35,241
Speaker 4: in there for about eleven weeks. And then the guy escaped.

1299
01:02:37,521 --> 01:02:40,201
Speaker 4: You've got a gun into the ward somehow stuck up

1300
01:02:40,241 --> 01:02:44,401
Speaker 4: the security guards and exited Bingey.

1301
01:02:44,921 --> 01:02:48,481
Speaker 1: Well, christ Christopher Binns badness when he yeah, badness.

1302
01:02:48,161 --> 01:02:51,121
Speaker 4: Yeah, when he escaped from the ward. So I think

1303
01:02:51,161 --> 01:02:53,721
Speaker 4: it's up on the seventh floor. But he was in

1304
01:02:53,801 --> 01:02:57,161
Speaker 4: a pretty bad way, like he really died, so I'm

1305
01:02:57,201 --> 01:02:58,561
Speaker 4: surprised he was even walking.

1306
01:02:59,441 --> 01:03:02,681
Speaker 1: So he's very determined. Christopher Bins, Yeah, I've had a

1307
01:03:02,721 --> 01:03:03,801
Speaker 1: long correspondence with him.

1308
01:03:04,361 --> 01:03:06,841
Speaker 4: We ended before he came out of the last time,

1309
01:03:06,881 --> 01:03:08,721
Speaker 4: and he got he's the best escape artist that I've

1310
01:03:08,721 --> 01:03:09,441
Speaker 4: ever read about.

1311
01:03:10,161 --> 01:03:11,041
Speaker 1: It was pretty good at it.

1312
01:03:12,081 --> 01:03:15,241
Speaker 4: If you look at all the documentary stuff, it's unbelievable.

1313
01:03:15,281 --> 01:03:17,201
Speaker 4: Every prison he went to here, you just came in

1314
01:03:17,281 --> 01:03:18,841
Speaker 4: in New South Wales. I think he got out of

1315
01:03:18,881 --> 01:03:20,321
Speaker 4: there too, one of them.

1316
01:03:21,801 --> 01:03:23,281
Speaker 1: And so you end up you have to go through

1317
01:03:23,321 --> 01:03:25,801
Speaker 1: the whole coronial process and your own trial.

1318
01:03:25,561 --> 01:03:28,401
Speaker 4: And you it wasn't really a trial because we end

1319
01:03:28,481 --> 01:03:31,921
Speaker 4: up pleading because I mean, they had everything we could

1320
01:03:31,961 --> 01:03:35,201
Speaker 4: afford it, but then for what you know, they probably

1321
01:03:35,201 --> 01:03:37,921
Speaker 4: would have double the sentence. So the only thing we

1322
01:03:37,961 --> 01:03:41,201
Speaker 4: could really do is just plead to it and just

1323
01:03:41,281 --> 01:03:43,321
Speaker 4: hope that we can get too long, you know. And

1324
01:03:43,401 --> 01:03:46,641
Speaker 4: we originally we were both sentenced to fifteen years with

1325
01:03:46,721 --> 01:03:50,201
Speaker 4: a tenure minimum, and then on appealed because of all

1326
01:03:50,241 --> 01:03:51,961
Speaker 4: my injuries and what I was going through at a time,

1327
01:03:52,001 --> 01:03:55,001
Speaker 4: because they only died a couple of times, even after

1328
01:03:55,121 --> 01:03:58,721
Speaker 4: the shooting. When I was back in Penridge Hospital, they

1329
01:03:58,721 --> 01:04:01,201
Speaker 4: had to rush me in and I only died one

1330
01:04:01,321 --> 01:04:05,641
Speaker 4: night there, and he was touching for a lot of

1331
01:04:05,721 --> 01:04:06,121
Speaker 4: the time.

1332
01:04:06,801 --> 01:04:09,201
Speaker 1: And you ended up doing I think seven years. I

1333
01:04:09,241 --> 01:04:10,081
Speaker 1: did seven years.

1334
01:04:10,241 --> 01:04:13,921
Speaker 4: I've got three off on the appeal because of all

1335
01:04:13,961 --> 01:04:16,121
Speaker 4: this stuff I'd have to deal with later in life,

1336
01:04:16,241 --> 01:04:18,281
Speaker 4: and they said my life would never be the same.

1337
01:04:18,641 --> 01:04:21,801
Speaker 4: And my em barrister at the time went pretty hard.

1338
01:04:22,481 --> 01:04:26,361
Speaker 4: He was brilliant Stephen, Sheheriff's He's made him sure. He

1339
01:04:26,521 --> 01:04:30,241
Speaker 4: sat there and he read everything, all my medical documents.

1340
01:04:30,321 --> 01:04:32,201
Speaker 4: He read him out loud because he wanted them on

1341
01:04:32,561 --> 01:04:36,121
Speaker 4: the file, not just hand it over. So he stood there,

1342
01:04:36,161 --> 01:04:39,961
Speaker 4: actually read every one of my medical scenes. It was

1343
01:04:40,041 --> 01:04:44,241
Speaker 4: brilliant Stephen. He's dead now, Yeah, very well wasted. Yeah

1344
01:04:44,361 --> 01:04:45,001
Speaker 4: did the job for you.

1345
01:04:45,281 --> 01:04:47,761
Speaker 1: Nice guy, you know. Yeah, he got me three years

1346
01:04:47,801 --> 01:04:52,481
Speaker 1: off and you're dealing with the grief of losing norm

1347
01:04:52,681 --> 01:04:55,081
Speaker 1: and also that feeling you mentioned before of regret that

1348
01:04:55,161 --> 01:04:57,841
Speaker 1: you got him involved in this. Yeah. Yeah, I do

1349
01:04:58,001 --> 01:04:58,361
Speaker 1: feel that.

1350
01:04:58,761 --> 01:05:01,001
Speaker 4: I mean, at the time, I didn't want them to

1351
01:05:01,121 --> 01:05:03,641
Speaker 4: see it, not the coppers and the people in court.

1352
01:05:03,681 --> 01:05:06,281
Speaker 4: I didn't want anybody to know how bad it was

1353
01:05:06,361 --> 01:05:10,601
Speaker 4: hurting me. But yeah, I just felt so. I felt

1354
01:05:10,601 --> 01:05:13,441
Speaker 4: it like it's my fault because I asked him to

1355
01:05:13,481 --> 01:05:16,801
Speaker 4: come along. He was such a nice guy to him.

1356
01:05:16,801 --> 01:05:19,241
Speaker 4: To lose him, you know, I lost a really good

1357
01:05:19,281 --> 01:05:23,081
Speaker 4: friend and it really hurt and it still hurts me today.

1358
01:05:23,721 --> 01:05:26,201
Speaker 4: There aren't many days where I don't think about it.

1359
01:05:26,841 --> 01:05:29,081
Speaker 4: You know, some little thing my job in my memory

1360
01:05:29,121 --> 01:05:30,481
Speaker 4: and I think about it.

1361
01:05:31,161 --> 01:05:33,041
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's when I first started to see you on

1362
01:05:33,161 --> 01:05:37,241
Speaker 1: social media and I noticed that you always post something

1363
01:05:37,801 --> 01:05:41,641
Speaker 1: on the anniversary of the airport job. Yeah, and it's

1364
01:05:41,681 --> 01:05:45,441
Speaker 1: always about Norm. It's the worst day of my life

1365
01:05:45,521 --> 01:05:51,681
Speaker 1: every year. Yeah, so you do you stretch? Now. The

1366
01:05:52,241 --> 01:05:56,881
Speaker 1: s OG officer who shot you, Damien here, he was

1367
01:05:57,161 --> 01:05:59,321
Speaker 1: concerned that when you got out you might want to

1368
01:05:59,361 --> 01:06:01,201
Speaker 1: back up on him, and that was the talk. And

1369
01:06:01,641 --> 01:06:06,041
Speaker 1: this has got to the press even and it's a bull. Yeah.

1370
01:06:06,161 --> 01:06:08,961
Speaker 4: I think it is too seeing you know now, you

1371
01:06:09,081 --> 01:06:12,321
Speaker 4: know if I do something lot that lot, really when

1372
01:06:12,401 --> 01:06:15,681
Speaker 4: months was enough my lesson that time, We're going to

1373
01:06:15,721 --> 01:06:16,681
Speaker 4: back up again and do it.

1374
01:06:17,401 --> 01:06:19,361
Speaker 1: Because you decided to change your life at that point,

1375
01:06:19,401 --> 01:06:19,721
Speaker 1: didn't you.

1376
01:06:19,921 --> 01:06:25,881
Speaker 4: Yeah, mainly just look, Norman's death really affected me, really

1377
01:06:26,041 --> 01:06:29,601
Speaker 4: really did. And from that day on, I just thought, Fuck,

1378
01:06:29,681 --> 01:06:32,001
Speaker 4: you know, there's more to life than this. I'm just

1379
01:06:32,041 --> 01:06:35,001
Speaker 4: going to change. I'm not going to be that person anymore.

1380
01:06:35,881 --> 01:06:37,441
Speaker 4: I'm going to try and be a good person and

1381
01:06:37,961 --> 01:06:42,201
Speaker 4: live a good life. Yeah, which I've done. You know,

1382
01:06:42,201 --> 01:06:46,521
Speaker 4: I've stayed out of bother since my release in ninety nine,

1383
01:06:47,081 --> 01:06:50,561
Speaker 4: so I didn't have anything to do with Steve no one.

1384
01:06:50,641 --> 01:06:52,681
Speaker 1: I just moved down to talk Key and that that

1385
01:06:52,881 --> 01:06:57,441
Speaker 1: was it, So, yeah, good on you. But just you're

1386
01:06:57,441 --> 01:07:00,281
Speaker 1: in a bar though one night, Yeah, and you see

1387
01:07:00,441 --> 01:07:03,281
Speaker 1: Damien here. Yeah, that's right. What happened. I was there

1388
01:07:03,361 --> 01:07:03,881
Speaker 1: with a girl.

1389
01:07:04,001 --> 01:07:07,241
Speaker 4: There's a little bar and Troy and we'd gone there.

1390
01:07:07,321 --> 01:07:09,361
Speaker 4: I watched the footy. I think it was an interstate game.

1391
01:07:09,481 --> 01:07:12,801
Speaker 4: But yeah, I was just standing having a beer and

1392
01:07:12,921 --> 01:07:14,161
Speaker 4: I think we both.

1393
01:07:14,161 --> 01:07:15,241
Speaker 1: Turned at the same time.

1394
01:07:15,281 --> 01:07:19,001
Speaker 4: I don't think he saw me before this instant, and

1395
01:07:19,121 --> 01:07:21,601
Speaker 4: we just locked eyes like I knew who he was

1396
01:07:21,721 --> 01:07:24,921
Speaker 4: straight away because I knew him from Court Corn's Court.

1397
01:07:25,001 --> 01:07:28,081
Speaker 1: I've seen him, and he obviously knew who I was.

1398
01:07:28,841 --> 01:07:31,921
Speaker 4: And we just stat there and stared at each other

1399
01:07:32,121 --> 01:07:35,841
Speaker 4: like I couldn't believe it, Like fuck, is that really him?

1400
01:07:36,041 --> 01:07:38,801
Speaker 1: Like yeah, and it was. It came over.

1401
01:07:39,521 --> 01:07:41,361
Speaker 4: It was worried here that I was going to back

1402
01:07:41,481 --> 01:07:44,241
Speaker 4: up and try and hurt him or something like that.

1403
01:07:45,281 --> 01:07:47,961
Speaker 4: But I ended up having a beer or two with him.

1404
01:07:48,721 --> 01:07:49,561
Speaker 1: I don't like him.

1405
01:07:50,241 --> 01:07:52,881
Speaker 4: I still dislike him, but you know, I would never

1406
01:07:53,041 --> 01:07:57,201
Speaker 4: do anything towards him or to any other cop. You know,

1407
01:07:57,361 --> 01:07:59,161
Speaker 4: I did what I did and did I've copped.

1408
01:07:58,961 --> 01:08:01,721
Speaker 1: It on the chin. What was the discussion. I'm curious

1409
01:08:01,761 --> 01:08:03,641
Speaker 1: though I can't really remember.

1410
01:08:03,721 --> 01:08:06,121
Speaker 4: Now, I've often thought about it and thought, what the

1411
01:08:06,281 --> 01:08:09,681
Speaker 4: fuck did we talk about? Like, I don't think it

1412
01:08:09,801 --> 01:08:13,121
Speaker 4: was about the actual job. I think we're just talking

1413
01:08:13,161 --> 01:08:17,080
Speaker 4: about what he was doing, what I was doing, stuff

1414
01:08:17,161 --> 01:08:19,880
Speaker 4: like that. Because he came back to the house too.

1415
01:08:20,680 --> 01:08:22,361
Speaker 4: The girl I was with it asking him back, you

1416
01:08:22,481 --> 01:08:24,641
Speaker 4: want to come back and have a beer and okay,

1417
01:08:25,001 --> 01:08:28,441
Speaker 4: because he didn't have a car, so I thought we

1418
01:08:28,481 --> 01:08:30,561
Speaker 4: were going to just take him home, but he ended

1419
01:08:30,641 --> 01:08:34,521
Speaker 4: up back at this girl's house and he was a

1420
01:08:34,561 --> 01:08:37,241
Speaker 4: bit concerned. Then every time I went to the gar upstairs,

1421
01:08:37,321 --> 01:08:40,681
Speaker 4: and because the bedroom was upstairs, he'd say to this

1422
01:08:40,801 --> 01:08:43,921
Speaker 4: girl looking like, okay, you know, here's everything okay here?

1423
01:08:44,441 --> 01:08:47,161
Speaker 4: And she said, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're okay. He's not

1424
01:08:47,241 --> 01:08:48,001
Speaker 4: going to do anything.

1425
01:08:48,081 --> 01:08:50,241
Speaker 1: He never would. You didn't have a firearm on the root,

1426
01:08:50,321 --> 01:08:55,361
Speaker 1: on me, on you, no, no, nothing, So so what

1427
01:08:55,481 --> 01:08:57,321
Speaker 1: an amazing saying there you are with the bloke that

1428
01:08:57,441 --> 01:08:58,401
Speaker 1: shot you. Yeah, I know.

1429
01:08:58,561 --> 01:09:01,201
Speaker 4: And then a couple of months later, maybe a few

1430
01:09:01,241 --> 01:09:04,241
Speaker 4: months later, I bumped into him again in High Street,

1431
01:09:04,281 --> 01:09:10,241
Speaker 4: northol by another incident just in fuck and how And

1432
01:09:10,401 --> 01:09:13,961
Speaker 4: I know that within about ten or fifty minutes. Another

1433
01:09:14,401 --> 01:09:16,321
Speaker 4: one of the Soggis that ride, a fair headed guy,

1434
01:09:16,321 --> 01:09:19,641
Speaker 4: his partner, and I know he actually got told off

1435
01:09:19,681 --> 01:09:21,641
Speaker 4: by the boss of the Soggi's hair.

1436
01:09:22,041 --> 01:09:23,281
Speaker 1: Why do you have a beer with him?

1437
01:09:23,721 --> 01:09:26,361
Speaker 4: What's that all about? You shouldn't have done that. And

1438
01:09:26,401 --> 01:09:28,841
Speaker 4: I think he got into trouble over that. You know,

1439
01:09:29,081 --> 01:09:30,881
Speaker 4: that's just the way we're panned out.

1440
01:09:31,241 --> 01:09:33,880
Speaker 1: So, and how did you feel about having that personal

1441
01:09:35,281 --> 01:09:36,161
Speaker 1: encounter with him?

1442
01:09:38,681 --> 01:09:41,001
Speaker 4: It was hard, you know, I'm not going to say

1443
01:09:41,041 --> 01:09:43,881
Speaker 4: it was these It was pretty hard. So there were

1444
01:09:43,961 --> 01:09:46,761
Speaker 4: certain things I liked to have said to him. And

1445
01:09:47,961 --> 01:09:49,361
Speaker 4: what would you have said to him? Yeah, a lot

1446
01:09:49,401 --> 01:09:52,041
Speaker 4: to talk to him about what happened that day and

1447
01:09:52,361 --> 01:09:54,481
Speaker 4: without all the bullshit lies and all the rest of it,

1448
01:09:54,561 --> 01:09:57,361
Speaker 4: and all the bullshit statements that they made, and talk

1449
01:09:57,441 --> 01:09:59,001
Speaker 4: about you know what happened.

1450
01:09:59,001 --> 01:10:01,441
Speaker 1: And why do you just keep shooting me? You know

1451
01:10:01,521 --> 01:10:03,281
Speaker 1: you hit me once? Why do you keep doing it?

1452
01:10:03,801 --> 01:10:06,241
Speaker 4: That's about probably what I like, you know, because there

1453
01:10:06,321 --> 01:10:10,121
Speaker 4: was no threat to anybody, you know, I wasn't armed.

1454
01:10:10,161 --> 01:10:12,641
Speaker 4: I got hit in the shoulder and I ended up

1455
01:10:12,761 --> 01:10:16,441
Speaker 4: on one knee in my hand on the ground in

1456
01:10:16,561 --> 01:10:21,001
Speaker 4: that position, and he just kept shooting at me. I thought, shit,

1457
01:10:21,121 --> 01:10:23,241
Speaker 4: if I don't do something, he's just going to keep

1458
01:10:23,401 --> 01:10:27,041
Speaker 4: going and going. Like so I moved over and spun

1459
01:10:27,121 --> 01:10:30,681
Speaker 4: around on my back and hit the ground because then

1460
01:10:30,721 --> 01:10:33,680
Speaker 4: I thought, shit, you know, well he should stop now,

1461
01:10:35,201 --> 01:10:36,081
Speaker 4: and he did so.

1462
01:10:37,841 --> 01:10:40,121
Speaker 1: But there were five I believe he was directed to

1463
01:10:40,401 --> 01:10:44,041
Speaker 1: stop shooting. Yeah, I don't know about that. I didn't

1464
01:10:44,081 --> 01:10:44,881
Speaker 1: hear anything like that.

1465
01:10:45,721 --> 01:10:47,681
Speaker 4: So all I could hear was the things that were

1466
01:10:47,721 --> 01:10:50,761
Speaker 4: staying to me, you know, like I said earlier about

1467
01:10:50,841 --> 01:10:52,321
Speaker 4: the words I were using and stuff.

1468
01:10:52,961 --> 01:10:55,801
Speaker 1: But I can't say that's true or not true. So

1469
01:10:56,441 --> 01:10:59,561
Speaker 1: you know, it could have happened. You know, So you

1470
01:10:59,641 --> 01:11:02,001
Speaker 1: had this odd encounter with the man who shot you,

1471
01:11:02,361 --> 01:11:06,681
Speaker 1: and yeah, how did you part? He left and that

1472
01:11:06,841 --> 01:11:09,401
Speaker 1: was it. There was no hugs or kisses or anything

1473
01:11:09,481 --> 01:11:09,641
Speaker 1: like that.

1474
01:11:10,281 --> 01:11:14,321
Speaker 4: So, yeah, he left, and he actually jogged home because

1475
01:11:14,321 --> 01:11:17,201
Speaker 4: I think he was living in even at the time. Yeah,

1476
01:11:17,241 --> 01:11:20,001
Speaker 4: he actually wanted to jog home right from where his

1477
01:11:20,401 --> 01:11:21,840
Speaker 4: girl's house was in Thornbury.

1478
01:11:22,801 --> 01:11:25,081
Speaker 1: It was a decent little job, probably about ten k's

1479
01:11:25,721 --> 01:11:27,921
Speaker 1: and he's looking over his shoulder thinking you'll be running

1480
01:11:27,921 --> 01:11:31,241
Speaker 1: after him with a firearm or something. Maybe, Yeah, because

1481
01:11:31,281 --> 01:11:33,081
Speaker 1: I think this is an important point, because I guess

1482
01:11:33,081 --> 01:11:34,841
Speaker 1: this still comes up in the media from time to time,

1483
01:11:34,881 --> 01:11:38,641
Speaker 1: that you've got some sort of vendetta vendetta or you

1484
01:11:38,801 --> 01:11:40,601
Speaker 1: back up, and I know that's not true. I can

1485
01:11:40,721 --> 01:11:42,841
Speaker 1: have hi spent the time in May. I can't do something.

1486
01:11:42,921 --> 01:11:45,521
Speaker 4: We've done it by now, wood Night's been how many years,

1487
01:11:45,801 --> 01:11:48,201
Speaker 4: in ninety nine, It's been.

1488
01:11:48,121 --> 01:11:50,961
Speaker 1: A long time. It's a generation that we've got bumped

1489
01:11:51,001 --> 01:11:51,401
Speaker 1: into him.

1490
01:11:51,681 --> 01:11:55,481
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, because I'm still in contact with Norm's

1491
01:11:55,561 --> 01:11:59,881
Speaker 4: kids and they're beautiful kids. Yeah, what was said about

1492
01:11:59,921 --> 01:12:03,401
Speaker 4: him was this disgusting Yeah, and wrong and wrong.

1493
01:12:03,441 --> 01:12:05,841
Speaker 1: I can say that's wrong. Yeah it was not, mister cruel.

1494
01:12:05,881 --> 01:12:09,001
Speaker 1: I can't guarantee and that again, it's because the attacks

1495
01:12:09,041 --> 01:12:12,441
Speaker 1: on these girls stopped around the time that Norman was killed,

1496
01:12:12,961 --> 01:12:14,641
Speaker 1: that this gets some sort of currency. But I don't

1497
01:12:14,681 --> 01:12:16,641
Speaker 1: think it's any currency at all. But no, tell me,

1498
01:12:16,961 --> 01:12:19,881
Speaker 1: how's life been since then? Since I got out, since

1499
01:12:19,921 --> 01:12:21,801
Speaker 1: you got out? And you know you've changed your life.

1500
01:12:21,881 --> 01:12:23,921
Speaker 1: And yeah, I moved down to talk for quite a

1501
01:12:24,001 --> 01:12:24,521
Speaker 1: few years.

1502
01:12:24,961 --> 01:12:26,961
Speaker 4: I was working down there with a builder for a

1503
01:12:27,001 --> 01:12:30,201
Speaker 4: little while. Then the injuries started to really play out

1504
01:12:30,241 --> 01:12:35,161
Speaker 4: and I couldn't too much back then, so Eventually I

1505
01:12:35,281 --> 01:12:38,121
Speaker 4: moved back to Melbourne and I was living with at

1506
01:12:38,161 --> 01:12:41,921
Speaker 4: this girl's house, and yeah, that were good days. I

1507
01:12:42,081 --> 01:12:46,041
Speaker 4: was just taking it easier. I don't see anybody, like,

1508
01:12:46,241 --> 01:12:49,321
Speaker 4: no one. I just walked away from everything, so because

1509
01:12:49,321 --> 01:12:53,121
Speaker 4: I had no interest in being that person again, to.

1510
01:12:53,241 --> 01:12:55,881
Speaker 1: The extent where Steve Aslin goes to jail for the

1511
01:12:55,961 --> 01:13:00,041
Speaker 1: murder of Braham Kinnerbrough and you thought about visiting him, Yeah,

1512
01:13:00,081 --> 01:13:01,001
Speaker 1: but I just can't.

1513
01:13:01,481 --> 01:13:03,721
Speaker 4: I don't think it would be a wise move, you know,

1514
01:13:04,081 --> 01:13:06,641
Speaker 4: like I don't know, I don't think i'd have anything

1515
01:13:06,761 --> 01:13:10,081
Speaker 4: nice to say to him about it. So it's probably

1516
01:13:10,121 --> 01:13:12,881
Speaker 4: better I don't go. Because you know, Grain was a

1517
01:13:12,961 --> 01:13:18,961
Speaker 4: nice boat. Whatever happened, Yeah, whatever happens happened now, so

1518
01:13:20,601 --> 01:13:21,521
Speaker 4: I didn't agree with it.

1519
01:13:22,161 --> 01:13:24,281
Speaker 1: Right, So you stayed out of all this business, which

1520
01:13:24,361 --> 01:13:26,761
Speaker 1: is a credit to you. I mean, you've done your time.

1521
01:13:26,801 --> 01:13:28,601
Speaker 1: You can't do more than the time they give you.

1522
01:13:28,881 --> 01:13:31,521
Speaker 4: I nearly he nearly got me killed, Steve, because he

1523
01:13:31,641 --> 01:13:35,121
Speaker 4: was going around using my name the pastard. Later on

1524
01:13:35,201 --> 01:13:39,481
Speaker 4: I found out that there were four men that had

1525
01:13:39,561 --> 01:13:41,081
Speaker 4: come down and stayed.

1526
01:13:40,801 --> 01:13:45,521
Speaker 1: At tour Key and with a view to putting me off.

1527
01:13:46,441 --> 01:13:49,881
Speaker 4: So my friend told me that like later on, you know,

1528
01:13:50,521 --> 01:13:52,561
Speaker 4: a few months after the event and all that, I go,

1529
01:13:53,001 --> 01:13:56,041
Speaker 4: can you tell me straight away? Like and when you

1530
01:13:56,161 --> 01:13:59,121
Speaker 4: told me I did, I found the goosebumps up and

1531
01:13:59,161 --> 01:14:01,921
Speaker 4: now my body is just like I could just feel it.

1532
01:14:02,641 --> 01:14:05,001
Speaker 1: You know that what he was saying was true.

1533
01:14:05,681 --> 01:14:08,561
Speaker 4: They planned on killing me air thinking that I was

1534
01:14:08,681 --> 01:14:11,321
Speaker 4: the one that was with Steve, which you know is

1535
01:14:11,521 --> 01:14:12,121
Speaker 4: well document.

1536
01:14:12,321 --> 01:14:14,881
Speaker 1: I wasn't at the time when Graham Kinneber was murdered

1537
01:14:14,881 --> 01:14:16,361
Speaker 1: in December two thousand and three.

1538
01:14:16,361 --> 01:14:19,481
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, because he was using my name. He thought

1539
01:14:19,521 --> 01:14:22,321
Speaker 4: it was funny, but it nearly got me killed. So

1540
01:14:23,361 --> 01:14:25,201
Speaker 4: he ran into a friend of mine and said his

1541
01:14:25,361 --> 01:14:29,601
Speaker 4: name was Steve Barchie. She's the daughter of a good woman. Really, well,

1542
01:14:29,681 --> 01:14:32,680
Speaker 4: you're a lovely lady. She said, look, you're not step

1543
01:14:32,841 --> 01:14:33,760
Speaker 4: but Steve.

1544
01:14:33,881 --> 01:14:35,601
Speaker 1: But and then he came.

1545
01:14:35,681 --> 01:14:37,761
Speaker 4: He told her the truth for you, Steve Aslin and

1546
01:14:37,841 --> 01:14:42,401
Speaker 4: blah blah blah. But she never liked him, so maybe

1547
01:14:42,481 --> 01:14:43,521
Speaker 4: she saw something in him.

1548
01:14:43,561 --> 01:14:47,561
Speaker 1: I don't know. So you're well away from all that now, yeah,

1549
01:14:47,641 --> 01:14:50,681
Speaker 1: which is good. And you're raising another child. Yeah, I've

1550
01:14:50,721 --> 01:14:52,401
Speaker 1: got a boy. How's he going?

1551
01:14:52,601 --> 01:14:53,561
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's going good?

1552
01:14:53,681 --> 01:14:54,281
Speaker 1: Is at school.

1553
01:14:54,881 --> 01:14:57,801
Speaker 4: Yeah, he's under sixteen, he's still like a boy. I

1554
01:14:57,921 --> 01:14:58,601
Speaker 4: love him the death.

1555
01:14:59,001 --> 01:14:59,161
Speaker 1: You know.

1556
01:14:59,361 --> 01:15:02,201
Speaker 4: That's part of the reason I don't want to get

1557
01:15:02,281 --> 01:15:05,441
Speaker 4: involved with anything, because you know, I'd hate him see

1558
01:15:05,681 --> 01:15:08,880
Speaker 4: anything like that or lives through one of the raids

1559
01:15:09,161 --> 01:15:12,041
Speaker 4: or anything that I'm not getting involved in anything.

1560
01:15:12,441 --> 01:15:14,081
Speaker 1: It's a wise decision. Yeah.

1561
01:15:14,121 --> 01:15:17,121
Speaker 4: And he's changed my life too, Like everything has come

1562
01:15:17,201 --> 01:15:20,681
Speaker 4: together at the right time. I think how s that well,

1563
01:15:21,561 --> 01:15:26,201
Speaker 4: like my son getting remarrying and yeah, just I think

1564
01:15:26,241 --> 01:15:28,841
Speaker 4: it all came together at the right time and helped

1565
01:15:28,921 --> 01:15:31,041
Speaker 4: make me who I am today. You know, I just

1566
01:15:31,161 --> 01:15:35,201
Speaker 4: don't not interested in any of that bullshit anymore. Have

1567
01:15:35,321 --> 01:15:37,561
Speaker 4: you found peace in your life? Yeah, I think I've

1568
01:15:37,601 --> 01:15:40,841
Speaker 4: found peace. I still carry a lot of guilt about

1569
01:15:40,921 --> 01:15:44,121
Speaker 4: normal and that'll be with me till the day I die.

1570
01:15:44,841 --> 01:15:48,721
Speaker 4: So because I just loved him, So I can't bring

1571
01:15:48,801 --> 01:15:51,680
Speaker 4: him back and anything, but I'll just be a good

1572
01:15:51,721 --> 01:15:53,881
Speaker 4: person live my life that way.

1573
01:15:55,001 --> 01:15:56,681
Speaker 1: I don't know how a song wh I've got a

1574
01:15:56,801 --> 01:16:00,800
Speaker 1: nearly seventy so you've still got luck on your shoulder.

1575
01:16:00,961 --> 01:16:02,481
Speaker 1: Maybe it might not be good, but it's still got

1576
01:16:02,601 --> 01:16:07,601
Speaker 1: luck hopefully. Yeah, because you're the first person I've ever

1577
01:16:08,281 --> 01:16:12,761
Speaker 1: seen speak up for normally. I think that's important. I

1578
01:16:12,841 --> 01:16:15,281
Speaker 1: think it's been valuable for you to do that. Yeah,

1579
01:16:15,281 --> 01:16:17,521
Speaker 1: I feel good about it. I know you were nervous

1580
01:16:17,521 --> 01:16:18,961
Speaker 1: by doing this. I know you canceled a couple of

1581
01:16:19,001 --> 01:16:20,641
Speaker 1: times and I cracked the shit and so forth. But

1582
01:16:20,721 --> 01:16:22,401
Speaker 1: I think I'm glad we got to do this. And

1583
01:16:22,481 --> 01:16:25,521
Speaker 1: I knew I was going to do it. Then I

1584
01:16:25,681 --> 01:16:26,321
Speaker 1: changed my mind.

1585
01:16:26,321 --> 01:16:28,321
Speaker 4: I started to get a little bit worried about with

1586
01:16:28,441 --> 01:16:30,601
Speaker 4: my son and all that, and then and I thought,

1587
01:16:30,641 --> 01:16:31,641
Speaker 4: now I've got nothing to hold.

1588
01:16:31,721 --> 01:16:40,960
Speaker 1: Look, I'm not doing anything. That was Stephen Barchie, retired

1589
01:16:41,361 --> 01:16:43,801
Speaker 1: robber and a man who managed to change his life.

1590
01:16:44,521 --> 01:16:47,641
Speaker 1: There's always an opportunity for redemption, and I'm glad to

1591
01:16:47,721 --> 01:16:51,361
Speaker 1: have told Stephen's story so others might see the possibility

1592
01:16:51,401 --> 01:16:55,321
Speaker 1: of peace beyond a life of crime. And having spoken

1593
01:16:55,361 --> 01:16:58,521
Speaker 1: to Stephen, I'm more sure than ever that normal LYE

1594
01:16:58,841 --> 01:17:02,601
Speaker 1: was not mister cruel and police should be looking elsewhere.

1595
01:17:03,081 --> 01:17:05,721
Speaker 1: But that's a story for another day. If you have

1596
01:17:05,801 --> 01:17:08,001
Speaker 1: a story to share with me, please write to me

1597
01:17:08,161 --> 01:17:11,561
Speaker 1: at Adam Shann writer at gmail dot com. If you

1598
01:17:11,601 --> 01:17:14,721
Speaker 1: want to report a crime, please call crime Stoppers on

1599
01:17:14,801 --> 01:17:18,361
Speaker 1: one eight hundred, triple three, triple zero. This has been

1600
01:17:18,401 --> 01:17:20,961
Speaker 1: Adam Shan for real crime. Thanks for listening.