1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:07,321 Speaker 1: Apote production. 2 00:00:11,041 --> 00:00:13,241 Speaker 2: Welcome to real crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host, 3 00:00:13,241 --> 00:00:16,881 Speaker 2: Adam Shand it was the most audacious of crimes committed 4 00:00:16,921 --> 00:00:20,601 Speaker 2: by the most unlikely of gangs. In nineteen sixty six, 5 00:00:20,761 --> 00:00:25,641 Speaker 2: four ordinary suburban guys plus one master crook forged Australia's 6 00:00:25,721 --> 00:00:28,041 Speaker 2: new ten dollar banknote. 7 00:00:28,161 --> 00:00:31,641 Speaker 3: Melbourne Police believe thousands of forged ten dollar notes are 8 00:00:31,641 --> 00:00:37,241 Speaker 3: in circulation in all Australian states. Reserve a counterfeit ten 9 00:00:37,321 --> 00:00:41,321 Speaker 3: dollar note, the first found in the Canberra area, has 10 00:00:41,361 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 3: been passed across the bar of a Quimbean hotel. 11 00:00:45,321 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 2: The venture collapsed in treachery and deceit, but led to 12 00:00:48,480 --> 00:00:52,561 Speaker 2: the creation of the world's first plastic currency and an 13 00:00:52,601 --> 00:00:55,801 Speaker 2: export industry for Australia. So there is a legacy from 14 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:59,121 Speaker 2: this unfortunate crime. My guest today, Ken Mutton was charged 15 00:00:59,161 --> 00:01:00,641 Speaker 2: with being a part of the caper, which was the 16 00:01:00,641 --> 00:01:03,801 Speaker 2: brainchild of his father, Jeffrey Mutton, who died back in 17 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:06,681 Speaker 2: the early two thousands. Welcome to real crime, Kenny. This 18 00:01:06,721 --> 00:01:08,761 Speaker 2: is a story that changed the course of your life 19 00:01:08,761 --> 00:01:11,121 Speaker 2: and your families. What was your dad thinking? What sort 20 00:01:11,121 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 2: of bloke was he? Yeah? 21 00:01:12,681 --> 00:01:14,521 Speaker 1: Well, I mean I was in the bank when it 22 00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:17,801 Speaker 1: all happened to my first job, I joined the bank, 23 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,841 Speaker 1: and of course it's the worst place to boo when 24 00:01:20,881 --> 00:01:24,121 Speaker 1: you want to do something like this. But he was, 25 00:01:24,721 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: you know, he wasn't always around for a while there, 26 00:01:28,321 --> 00:01:32,601 Speaker 1: and we sort of realized what he was up to 27 00:01:32,801 --> 00:01:35,481 Speaker 1: one day when he come in and just threw a 28 00:01:35,521 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 1: bunch of notes on the table and asked me to 29 00:01:38,161 --> 00:01:41,961 Speaker 1: count it. Oh yeah, So I counted it, and I 30 00:01:42,081 --> 00:01:44,921 Speaker 1: picked out all the dad notes, and then we knew 31 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:45,761 Speaker 1: what he was up to. 32 00:01:46,401 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 2: Because this was this was in December of nineteen sixty six, 33 00:01:50,761 --> 00:01:54,041 Speaker 2: and the decimal currency had come in in February of 34 00:01:54,121 --> 00:01:57,201 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty six. Now this would be the first time 35 00:01:57,201 --> 00:01:59,121 Speaker 2: I'll ever sing on my podcast, but you might you 36 00:01:59,201 --> 00:02:01,681 Speaker 2: might remember. The little jingle they came up with back 37 00:02:01,721 --> 00:02:07,481 Speaker 2: in the day was something like income dollars income the sense. 38 00:02:07,801 --> 00:02:11,241 Speaker 3: To replace the pounds and the shillings and the pens 39 00:02:11,401 --> 00:02:14,641 Speaker 3: being prepared folks when the coins begin to mix on 40 00:02:14,841 --> 00:02:18,121 Speaker 3: the ford. In the February nineteen sixty. 41 00:02:17,761 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 1: Six law was in a bank, so was the sole 42 00:02:20,321 --> 00:02:23,121 Speaker 1: part of the out of the bank lotch all that 43 00:02:23,161 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: sort of thinging. 44 00:02:23,921 --> 00:02:28,041 Speaker 2: That's right, because he had he had been planning this 45 00:02:28,121 --> 00:02:30,481 Speaker 2: for some time. It was all made possible by the 46 00:02:30,561 --> 00:02:33,441 Speaker 2: Castetna color printer, which came out about the same time 47 00:02:33,481 --> 00:02:36,201 Speaker 2: as the ten dollar notes, and that's what made it possible. 48 00:02:36,361 --> 00:02:39,841 Speaker 2: And I've actually he wrote a manuscript ten years for 49 00:02:39,921 --> 00:02:43,201 Speaker 2: ten dollars, which has never been published, and you and 50 00:02:43,201 --> 00:02:45,081 Speaker 2: I looked at it over the years. I've sort of 51 00:02:45,281 --> 00:02:49,641 Speaker 2: put together some thoughts and some background based on that manuscript, 52 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 2: So I'll just do a bit of it before we 53 00:02:50,761 --> 00:02:52,921 Speaker 2: get into some of these questions here. But you know, 54 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,481 Speaker 2: I imagine that on that day, the twenty third of 55 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,441 Speaker 2: December nineteen sixty six, he's ready to go with his 56 00:03:00,881 --> 00:03:05,001 Speaker 2: big plan and he takes some money into a hotel 57 00:03:05,041 --> 00:03:08,561 Speaker 2: well in Melbourne's East and you can imagine the scene. 58 00:03:08,721 --> 00:03:12,321 Speaker 2: He's there, going this is it. His heart's pounding in 59 00:03:12,361 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 2: his chest. He pulled a wad of counterfeit ten dollar 60 00:03:15,641 --> 00:03:18,001 Speaker 2: notes from the glove box of the hr Holden and 61 00:03:18,041 --> 00:03:20,441 Speaker 2: headed into a pub in Melbourne's East. Now it had 62 00:03:20,481 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 2: a watermark and a metallic thread printed onto the surface 63 00:03:24,401 --> 00:03:27,800 Speaker 2: on the strath bond number eight paper, I believe, so 64 00:03:27,841 --> 00:03:30,761 Speaker 2: it was pretty good and the notes were perfect, but 65 00:03:30,841 --> 00:03:33,841 Speaker 2: for the feel At the last minute, the team added 66 00:03:33,881 --> 00:03:37,081 Speaker 2: some floor wax to get the weight right. But your 67 00:03:37,161 --> 00:03:40,961 Speaker 2: dad was nervous. He wasn't a professional, professional crook. He 68 00:03:41,001 --> 00:03:43,561 Speaker 2: was a failed shopkeeper of anything, and he was about 69 00:03:43,601 --> 00:03:47,041 Speaker 2: to launch a bold attack on Australia's new decimal currency. 70 00:03:47,401 --> 00:03:50,161 Speaker 2: December twenty third, ninety sixty six and the banks were 71 00:03:50,161 --> 00:03:53,681 Speaker 2: closed for Christmas, to reopen five days later, plenty of 72 00:03:53,721 --> 00:03:56,561 Speaker 2: time to pass one hundred and sixty thousand dollars worth 73 00:03:56,601 --> 00:04:00,241 Speaker 2: of the notes before the alarm might be raised. Your 74 00:04:00,281 --> 00:04:03,161 Speaker 2: dad hesitantly laid the first tenor on the bar, the 75 00:04:03,161 --> 00:04:06,161 Speaker 2: face of the convict Forger Francis Greenway staring up at 76 00:04:06,241 --> 00:04:09,401 Speaker 2: him from the note. Beer please, he said, holding his breath. 77 00:04:09,721 --> 00:04:13,841 Speaker 2: A twelve cent beer, said the barman. He took the 78 00:04:13,881 --> 00:04:16,241 Speaker 2: note and he dumped the change on the bar in 79 00:04:16,281 --> 00:04:19,401 Speaker 2: front of your dad. Martin drained the beer in one gulp, 80 00:04:19,721 --> 00:04:22,961 Speaker 2: a sense of relief spreading over him. What a lark, 81 00:04:23,041 --> 00:04:26,241 Speaker 2: he thought, This is dead easy. So he goes to 82 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,281 Speaker 2: every bar in the pub and passed and noted each, 83 00:04:28,521 --> 00:04:31,361 Speaker 2: his confidence growing with each handful of change he pocketed. 84 00:04:31,961 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 2: He left the beers on the counter and he had 85 00:04:33,721 --> 00:04:36,521 Speaker 2: straight for the row of shops adjoining to cash more. 86 00:04:37,161 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 2: He was soon out of money and rushed back to 87 00:04:38,921 --> 00:04:42,161 Speaker 2: the car from war. By eleven PM, your dad had 88 00:04:42,241 --> 00:04:45,041 Speaker 2: three thousand dollars of real money in his pocket and 89 00:04:45,081 --> 00:04:48,201 Speaker 2: he was euphoric. The tax officer had taken his delicatessant 90 00:04:48,401 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: and put it out of business. This was his revenge, 91 00:04:51,001 --> 00:04:53,521 Speaker 2: I think, he used to say. He and his accomplices 92 00:04:53,561 --> 00:04:57,401 Speaker 2: had made their own money using a Gestetna color offset printer. 93 00:04:58,001 --> 00:05:00,281 Speaker 2: The worst nightmare of the Reserve Bank Governor H. C. 94 00:05:00,561 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: Nugget Combs was about to come true. Public confidence in 95 00:05:03,921 --> 00:05:07,041 Speaker 2: his state of the art currency was about to be rocked. 96 00:05:07,921 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 2: As he drove home to Ashburton in Melbourne's East, your 97 00:05:10,521 --> 00:05:13,521 Speaker 2: dad was floating on air. There was another two hundred 98 00:05:13,561 --> 00:05:16,561 Speaker 2: and forty thousand dollars worth of passable notes buried in 99 00:05:16,601 --> 00:05:19,801 Speaker 2: the back garden, along with another six hundred thousand dollars 100 00:05:20,081 --> 00:05:23,601 Speaker 2: worth of rejects been made in nine months of trial 101 00:05:23,641 --> 00:05:28,121 Speaker 2: and error. At six pm, unbeknowns to your dad, his 102 00:05:28,201 --> 00:05:31,241 Speaker 2: brother had given his wife two counterfeit notes to do 103 00:05:31,281 --> 00:05:34,801 Speaker 2: the shopping. She had no idea they were fakes, and 104 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:37,601 Speaker 2: casually bought a box of chocolates for sixty five cents 105 00:05:38,001 --> 00:05:41,001 Speaker 2: at the corner store. The shop assistant was already used 106 00:05:41,001 --> 00:05:44,001 Speaker 2: to handling the new currency and this note just didn't 107 00:05:44,001 --> 00:05:48,361 Speaker 2: feel right. She followed your dad's sister in law to 108 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 2: the car and noted the registration plates. By the time 109 00:05:52,041 --> 00:05:54,481 Speaker 2: your dad got home, the police were tearing up the 110 00:05:54,521 --> 00:05:57,801 Speaker 2: house looking for the horde of fake cash. You were 111 00:05:57,801 --> 00:06:00,361 Speaker 2: there that night, Tell it, recreate the scene for us. 112 00:06:00,561 --> 00:06:04,121 Speaker 1: Ah, Well, it was at our house in who spent 113 00:06:04,241 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: lean And well, I mean we were there, Me and 114 00:06:09,241 --> 00:06:13,041 Speaker 1: my mother and my sister were there on that night 115 00:06:13,121 --> 00:06:17,801 Speaker 1: that they come and they sort of just barged in 116 00:06:17,841 --> 00:06:21,081 Speaker 1: and guns with guns in the air, and just we 117 00:06:21,161 --> 00:06:25,281 Speaker 1: sort of were shocked. And there was money there with 118 00:06:26,281 --> 00:06:29,161 Speaker 1: in a bag with groceries and stuff. So I put 119 00:06:29,201 --> 00:06:32,401 Speaker 1: down my bed and just to get it, because I said, 120 00:06:32,481 --> 00:06:34,601 Speaker 1: I didn't know there were police. I do you know 121 00:06:34,641 --> 00:06:37,041 Speaker 1: who was at the door. So I put in the 122 00:06:37,081 --> 00:06:42,001 Speaker 1: bed and then they barged in and they went into 123 00:06:42,041 --> 00:06:43,921 Speaker 1: my room and there was the money on the bed 124 00:06:44,001 --> 00:06:46,841 Speaker 1: and there was as far as I know, there was 125 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:50,721 Speaker 1: no more forgery in that money, but there was eventually, 126 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:55,281 Speaker 1: so I presume they put something in there. But anyway, 127 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:56,601 Speaker 1: that's and then they. 128 00:06:56,481 --> 00:06:58,921 Speaker 2: Put something in there. They think they that they framed you. 129 00:06:59,201 --> 00:07:02,441 Speaker 1: Yeah, I reckon they framed, but didn't at that part 130 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:03,321 Speaker 1: of it. Anyway. 131 00:07:03,681 --> 00:07:08,001 Speaker 2: What a shock though, and Dad, Dad drives up and pandemonium. 132 00:07:08,081 --> 00:07:11,361 Speaker 2: He's thinking, he's floating on air. He's just broken the bank. 133 00:07:11,721 --> 00:07:13,721 Speaker 2: He's tried everything under the sun to maker money. He 134 00:07:13,761 --> 00:07:14,961 Speaker 2: was a bit of a chance, a year old man, 135 00:07:15,001 --> 00:07:17,561 Speaker 2: I got to say. And nothing had ever really gone right, 136 00:07:17,601 --> 00:07:20,201 Speaker 2: but this was about to go right, but it was about 137 00:07:20,241 --> 00:07:21,281 Speaker 2: to go horribly wrong. 138 00:07:21,641 --> 00:07:22,441 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right. 139 00:07:22,481 --> 00:07:22,801 Speaker 2: He was. 140 00:07:23,761 --> 00:07:26,201 Speaker 1: He liked the money and he wanted He was always 141 00:07:26,201 --> 00:07:31,121 Speaker 1: buying and selling businesses to make money and houses. And 142 00:07:31,401 --> 00:07:33,681 Speaker 1: I mean we traveled around all over the place when 143 00:07:33,681 --> 00:07:37,361 Speaker 1: we were younger. We hardly settled anywhere, and he would 144 00:07:37,561 --> 00:07:39,841 Speaker 1: he was always chasing the dollar. And I thought that 145 00:07:40,081 --> 00:07:43,361 Speaker 1: maybe this is probably his big his big deal. He 146 00:07:43,481 --> 00:07:44,841 Speaker 1: was going to make some money. 147 00:07:44,641 --> 00:07:46,361 Speaker 2: Because the tax office had already put him out of 148 00:07:46,401 --> 00:07:47,921 Speaker 2: business in the delicates and down it rose. 149 00:07:47,961 --> 00:07:50,601 Speaker 1: But I believe, but I know that they put him 150 00:07:50,601 --> 00:07:53,881 Speaker 1: out of business because we were on sell true business 151 00:07:53,921 --> 00:07:57,401 Speaker 1: in a year and he was buying businesses and selling 152 00:07:57,481 --> 00:08:00,961 Speaker 1: them and we did more than three in one year. 153 00:08:01,321 --> 00:08:03,761 Speaker 1: It would have been sixty three, sixty four or something 154 00:08:03,801 --> 00:08:07,841 Speaker 1: like that in Chester Road and then we lost that house. 155 00:08:08,121 --> 00:08:10,041 Speaker 2: See it had a bit of an unsettled childh Well, 156 00:08:10,201 --> 00:08:12,561 Speaker 2: my dad was chasing his dreams pretty much. 157 00:08:12,561 --> 00:08:16,801 Speaker 1: Chasing money, chasing money, money and trying to get money. 158 00:08:17,281 --> 00:08:20,281 Speaker 2: Yeah right. Was he a lovable rogue? 159 00:08:21,041 --> 00:08:24,201 Speaker 1: Oh yeah. It was always a good little party, it was. 160 00:08:24,521 --> 00:08:26,761 Speaker 1: It was a lot of fun, yeah, but it was 161 00:08:26,881 --> 00:08:29,881 Speaker 1: dancing and doing stupid things. 162 00:08:29,921 --> 00:08:34,081 Speaker 2: But there because his big opportunity to finance this caper 163 00:08:34,161 --> 00:08:36,121 Speaker 2: came when he had some sort of touch shop down 164 00:08:36,161 --> 00:08:39,081 Speaker 2: at Rose But I understand and a fellow called Robert 165 00:08:39,641 --> 00:08:44,361 Speaker 2: Bertram Douglas. Kid used to go there and Bertie was 166 00:08:44,561 --> 00:08:48,201 Speaker 2: probably one of Australia's most complete crooks. He and he 167 00:08:48,241 --> 00:08:50,201 Speaker 2: died a couple of weeks. I went to his funeral actually, 168 00:08:50,601 --> 00:08:53,441 Speaker 2: and he was a safe breaker, an armed robber, a burglar, 169 00:08:53,641 --> 00:08:57,081 Speaker 2: horse doper and a dedicated corruptor of police. He was 170 00:08:57,121 --> 00:09:00,241 Speaker 2: criminal royalty from about the sixties through to his jailing 171 00:09:00,281 --> 00:09:03,161 Speaker 2: for a series of hold ups in the early nineteen nineties. 172 00:09:03,201 --> 00:09:05,721 Speaker 2: Money was really the motivator for Kid. It was more 173 00:09:05,761 --> 00:09:09,561 Speaker 2: about the scoreboard that beating any system that kept him 174 00:09:09,561 --> 00:09:11,641 Speaker 2: away from the loot was probably more important than the 175 00:09:11,721 --> 00:09:14,961 Speaker 2: loute itself. He once stole. Did you notice he stole 176 00:09:15,001 --> 00:09:17,081 Speaker 2: twenty three kilos of gold from the cargo of a 177 00:09:17,121 --> 00:09:20,801 Speaker 2: courier plane by sending himself inside a box on the 178 00:09:20,841 --> 00:09:24,081 Speaker 2: same flight. But that's another story. So when he saw 179 00:09:24,641 --> 00:09:28,201 Speaker 2: this opportunity to forge the tend all the note with 180 00:09:28,281 --> 00:09:31,881 Speaker 2: your dad, he jumped at it. And he even though 181 00:09:32,281 --> 00:09:35,401 Speaker 2: even though he knew your dad wasn't a crook as such, 182 00:09:35,521 --> 00:09:40,321 Speaker 2: normally he dealt with organized criminals, but he decided to 183 00:09:40,361 --> 00:09:42,881 Speaker 2: get involved. And he said, how much is it going 184 00:09:42,961 --> 00:09:46,601 Speaker 2: to cost to buy the printer and get the plates 185 00:09:46,601 --> 00:09:48,361 Speaker 2: done and the whole thing and get the thing in production? 186 00:09:49,001 --> 00:09:53,761 Speaker 2: And he apparently your dad ripped him off, which wasn't 187 00:09:53,761 --> 00:09:56,241 Speaker 2: a clever thing to do really, because he was a bird. 188 00:09:56,241 --> 00:09:58,481 Speaker 2: He probably killed a couple of people, and there were 189 00:09:58,481 --> 00:10:01,081 Speaker 2: a couple of heavy moments. But he said to kid 190 00:10:01,121 --> 00:10:03,401 Speaker 2: that it would take twenty thousand dollars to set up 191 00:10:03,641 --> 00:10:07,241 Speaker 2: this Castettna two one printing press and the equipment required 192 00:10:07,281 --> 00:10:10,521 Speaker 2: to make the photographic plates. It actually only cost about 193 00:10:10,521 --> 00:10:15,441 Speaker 2: five thousands, so he'd already pocketed about fifteen thousand. Anyway, 194 00:10:15,521 --> 00:10:18,241 Speaker 2: so Bertie was into this and he goes straight from 195 00:10:18,281 --> 00:10:21,321 Speaker 2: a meeting with your dad and he goes to the 196 00:10:21,361 --> 00:10:24,841 Speaker 2: Hampton Hotel in Bayside, Melbourne, which he had been told 197 00:10:24,841 --> 00:10:28,521 Speaker 2: by his corrupt police officers that there was so much 198 00:10:28,561 --> 00:10:30,681 Speaker 2: money in this safe they could hardly close the door. 199 00:10:31,121 --> 00:10:34,761 Speaker 2: So he cut that open. He gets twenty eight thousand 200 00:10:34,801 --> 00:10:38,201 Speaker 2: dollars from that and hands over the money to your dad. 201 00:10:38,841 --> 00:10:42,161 Speaker 2: See where the whole thing went wrong is they didn't 202 00:10:42,201 --> 00:10:47,041 Speaker 2: listen to Bertie. Bertie's plan was to take the forged coin, 203 00:10:47,161 --> 00:10:50,201 Speaker 2: forged dollars and go out to the opal field by 204 00:10:50,321 --> 00:10:53,721 Speaker 2: the entire output of the opals there get real cash 205 00:10:53,721 --> 00:10:56,881 Speaker 2: for that, because no one has seen these dollars out 206 00:10:56,921 --> 00:11:00,161 Speaker 2: in the bush. So we'd get the opals and then 207 00:11:00,401 --> 00:11:02,561 Speaker 2: cash them in and send a whole bunch of other 208 00:11:02,561 --> 00:11:05,441 Speaker 2: money up to Hong Kong for the money changes, and 209 00:11:05,521 --> 00:11:10,161 Speaker 2: so we'd get into real currency. But your dad had 210 00:11:10,201 --> 00:11:13,841 Speaker 2: other ideas. Unfortunately, he had other ideas well. 211 00:11:14,081 --> 00:11:17,521 Speaker 1: He included the family and his owes, and that was 212 00:11:17,561 --> 00:11:21,401 Speaker 1: a stupid move. I think I don't know why he 213 00:11:21,681 --> 00:11:25,321 Speaker 1: included all family, but that was ridiculous and we knew. 214 00:11:25,681 --> 00:11:28,921 Speaker 1: He knew we lived at Rosebud for three years, and 215 00:11:29,001 --> 00:11:31,521 Speaker 1: he knew Robert Kidd then. That's in the late fifties, 216 00:11:31,761 --> 00:11:35,881 Speaker 1: because I remember him and Robert Kidd cutting wood in 217 00:11:35,921 --> 00:11:40,281 Speaker 1: the pine forest together. Yeah. And I read in the 218 00:11:40,361 --> 00:11:44,761 Speaker 1: Robert's book that his brother was into the timber business, 219 00:11:44,841 --> 00:11:48,321 Speaker 1: or I think that correct. I was probably through that. 220 00:11:48,841 --> 00:11:52,481 Speaker 1: You know, we knew him then, and I think that's 221 00:11:52,481 --> 00:11:54,001 Speaker 1: where it all started from. 222 00:11:54,321 --> 00:11:56,321 Speaker 2: I think that was the last honest job that Bertie 223 00:11:56,401 --> 00:11:59,201 Speaker 2: Kid ever did, cutting bit of timber. He was a 224 00:11:59,241 --> 00:12:02,601 Speaker 2: dedicated crook from that time onwards, but he did involve 225 00:12:02,601 --> 00:12:05,281 Speaker 2: the family, your dad and you mentioned before how he 226 00:12:05,361 --> 00:12:08,561 Speaker 2: actually when he was producing the notes, he brought a 227 00:12:08,601 --> 00:12:10,521 Speaker 2: pile of t because you've been in the bank, and 228 00:12:10,561 --> 00:12:12,681 Speaker 2: I think he put a whole He had a bunch 229 00:12:12,681 --> 00:12:14,961 Speaker 2: of real notes and he put the counterfeits within them. 230 00:12:15,441 --> 00:12:16,081 Speaker 2: Do you remember that. 231 00:12:16,361 --> 00:12:20,361 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I counted it and I picked everyone out, 232 00:12:20,441 --> 00:12:23,121 Speaker 1: and he actually cracked it and just rubbed the money. 233 00:12:23,921 --> 00:12:24,681 Speaker 1: Oh what do you know? 234 00:12:24,801 --> 00:12:26,921 Speaker 2: Sort of So what was the difference with them? 235 00:12:28,361 --> 00:12:30,761 Speaker 1: Like you said before, they had that waxy feel and 236 00:12:31,321 --> 00:12:34,921 Speaker 1: they was sort of crisp, not like the original notes 237 00:12:34,921 --> 00:12:38,281 Speaker 1: were sort of you could flick them like a like 238 00:12:38,401 --> 00:12:42,521 Speaker 1: a I don't know, a linen toype. I feel these 239 00:12:42,561 --> 00:12:46,361 Speaker 1: were crisp and you could just it was so easy 240 00:12:46,401 --> 00:12:48,321 Speaker 1: to pick out I don't know, on. 241 00:12:48,241 --> 00:12:50,761 Speaker 2: The field, yeah, the field, Yeah, because they think they 242 00:12:50,841 --> 00:12:54,241 Speaker 2: also had a slightly they felt more like paper than 243 00:12:54,241 --> 00:12:56,881 Speaker 2: that sort of as you say, cloth or sort of 244 00:12:56,921 --> 00:12:59,881 Speaker 2: raggy feel that the real tendant on notes had. But 245 00:12:59,921 --> 00:13:03,001 Speaker 2: I guess the thing about counterfeiting notes is they had 246 00:13:03,041 --> 00:13:05,001 Speaker 2: to be perfect. You've only got to pass some one. 247 00:13:06,081 --> 00:13:10,281 Speaker 2: And that was Kid's plan. And unfortunately, as I say, 248 00:13:11,121 --> 00:13:14,681 Speaker 2: your dad had other ideas. And when when Kid turned 249 00:13:14,761 --> 00:13:16,721 Speaker 2: up at your house the same day, but this is 250 00:13:16,721 --> 00:13:20,601 Speaker 2: happening on the same day, December twenty third, and before 251 00:13:20,801 --> 00:13:22,801 Speaker 2: your dad had gone and I shouted to cash in 252 00:13:22,841 --> 00:13:25,281 Speaker 2: at the hotel, Kid had come to the house to 253 00:13:25,281 --> 00:13:26,601 Speaker 2: pick up what he thought was going to be two 254 00:13:26,681 --> 00:13:30,121 Speaker 2: hundred thousand dollars in fake notes, but your dad only 255 00:13:30,121 --> 00:13:33,641 Speaker 2: handed him forty thousand dollars. There'd been so many rejects. 256 00:13:33,681 --> 00:13:35,321 Speaker 2: He said that there was only a total of one 257 00:13:35,401 --> 00:13:38,401 Speaker 2: hundred and sixty thousand good enough to be passed, which 258 00:13:38,481 --> 00:13:42,761 Speaker 2: was not true either, by the way, So that was 259 00:13:42,801 --> 00:13:47,681 Speaker 2: a problem. And also your dad said, forget about taking 260 00:13:47,721 --> 00:13:50,561 Speaker 2: the money to the open fields. We're going to just 261 00:13:50,881 --> 00:13:52,641 Speaker 2: we're going to flood the market. We're going to go 262 00:13:52,681 --> 00:13:54,401 Speaker 2: out and spend as much as we possibly can. You 263 00:13:54,441 --> 00:13:56,041 Speaker 2: do what you want with yours, but we're going to 264 00:13:56,121 --> 00:13:59,281 Speaker 2: keep ours. And you know, and Bertie couldn't do much 265 00:13:59,321 --> 00:14:02,881 Speaker 2: about it, because you know, you guys had the loot 266 00:14:03,081 --> 00:14:05,921 Speaker 2: and he wanted to get it. He could pass it. 267 00:14:06,361 --> 00:14:10,401 Speaker 2: And there was quite a moment in this exchange where 268 00:14:10,801 --> 00:14:12,921 Speaker 2: one of your dad's offside who's got a bit smart 269 00:14:12,961 --> 00:14:16,161 Speaker 2: with Birdie Kid, and he came up with his famous line. 270 00:14:16,761 --> 00:14:18,961 Speaker 2: He pulled his coat back to reveal the thirty eight 271 00:14:19,561 --> 00:14:22,601 Speaker 2: in his in his shoulder holster, and he said, you're 272 00:14:22,641 --> 00:14:25,681 Speaker 2: a smarty I hope you've got your affairs in order. 273 00:14:25,921 --> 00:14:29,641 Speaker 2: All playing gangsters, but this was a real gangster. Your 274 00:14:29,721 --> 00:14:34,241 Speaker 2: dad was not a real gangster anyway. So Kid got 275 00:14:34,321 --> 00:14:36,561 Speaker 2: rid of most of his money in a flash, forty 276 00:14:36,641 --> 00:14:39,401 Speaker 2: thousand dollars he did. But at eleven o'clock he got 277 00:14:39,841 --> 00:14:43,681 Speaker 2: word from corrupt police that he should stop cashing because 278 00:14:43,681 --> 00:14:46,961 Speaker 2: he told he was told that your dad had been nicked, 279 00:14:47,521 --> 00:14:50,921 Speaker 2: and the whole plan for Kid from there was to 280 00:14:50,961 --> 00:14:53,001 Speaker 2: make sure that he wasn't pinched for the same thing. 281 00:14:53,521 --> 00:14:57,561 Speaker 2: So when a sergeant came over to your house and 282 00:14:57,601 --> 00:15:00,081 Speaker 2: he said to your dad, who are you working with? 283 00:15:01,481 --> 00:15:05,681 Speaker 2: And your dad said, I'm working on my own and 284 00:15:05,721 --> 00:15:09,361 Speaker 2: the sergeant said to him, you better fucking stick to that, 285 00:15:09,841 --> 00:15:12,921 Speaker 2: but you'll be thrown head first out the window. And 286 00:15:12,961 --> 00:15:14,921 Speaker 2: this was coming straight from Birdie Kidd, who was not 287 00:15:14,961 --> 00:15:18,321 Speaker 2: a man to be trifled with. Your dad got bail, 288 00:15:19,321 --> 00:15:23,121 Speaker 2: but his dreams of riches were shattered. Ten of his 289 00:15:23,201 --> 00:15:25,641 Speaker 2: friends and family were charged with possession of the forgeries 290 00:15:25,761 --> 00:15:29,121 Speaker 2: or uttering them. Of course, your dad was now terrified 291 00:15:29,121 --> 00:15:31,361 Speaker 2: to cash the remaining notes, each dashed in the backyard, 292 00:15:31,681 --> 00:15:34,761 Speaker 2: which was about five hundred thousand dollars worth. They dug 293 00:15:34,801 --> 00:15:36,881 Speaker 2: up the lawn. You didn't find. 294 00:15:36,721 --> 00:15:39,881 Speaker 1: Them, No, I don't know where they were then, because 295 00:15:39,921 --> 00:15:42,521 Speaker 1: they did come a note and digging everywhere. 296 00:15:42,201 --> 00:15:45,601 Speaker 2: And they missed them. So what was it like for 297 00:15:45,641 --> 00:15:47,841 Speaker 2: your family at this moment when this is all going on. 298 00:15:48,641 --> 00:15:51,881 Speaker 1: Terrify really, because you know, we didn't know what was 299 00:15:51,961 --> 00:15:54,681 Speaker 1: what were you what was happening? That was just sort 300 00:15:54,681 --> 00:15:57,241 Speaker 1: of everything was thrown out of wool. I got the 301 00:15:57,321 --> 00:16:02,441 Speaker 1: sack from the bank, I guess, and we were just stuck. 302 00:16:02,801 --> 00:16:04,881 Speaker 2: Probably wasn't a good look a bank teller to come 303 00:16:04,921 --> 00:16:06,641 Speaker 2: on well bank getting involved in forging. 304 00:16:08,001 --> 00:16:10,561 Speaker 1: I'd come back after it all happened, but they said, no, 305 00:16:10,681 --> 00:16:15,041 Speaker 1: you won't, that's it, and I had to sign a 306 00:16:15,481 --> 00:16:18,321 Speaker 1: release thing. The bank manager come to the house. 307 00:16:19,361 --> 00:16:25,441 Speaker 2: And so you were charged with being an accessory I believe, Yeah. 308 00:16:25,041 --> 00:16:28,401 Speaker 1: Possession you just possession, I think, yeah. 309 00:16:28,201 --> 00:16:30,841 Speaker 2: Just possession of the notes. That was enough. Yeah, right, 310 00:16:30,881 --> 00:16:32,721 Speaker 2: And I guess they were expecting you to give evidence 311 00:16:32,721 --> 00:16:34,441 Speaker 2: against your dad and clean this whole thing up. 312 00:16:34,841 --> 00:16:35,041 Speaker 3: Yeah. 313 00:16:35,841 --> 00:16:39,561 Speaker 1: Well, actually when they come that day, they had guns 314 00:16:39,601 --> 00:16:42,961 Speaker 1: and one of them stuck a pushed me outside. There 315 00:16:43,001 --> 00:16:45,161 Speaker 1: was two of them together, and one pushed me outside 316 00:16:45,201 --> 00:16:48,921 Speaker 1: and stuck the gun, and they were sort of threatening 317 00:16:49,041 --> 00:16:51,521 Speaker 1: me because you know, tell us what you know, a 318 00:16:51,601 --> 00:16:55,481 Speaker 1: sort of thing, and I just says as because I'm ony, 319 00:16:55,521 --> 00:16:57,721 Speaker 1: I do you know. I said, oh, look, I've got friends, 320 00:16:58,441 --> 00:17:01,721 Speaker 1: and they usily walk inside. And later on I thought, well, 321 00:17:02,041 --> 00:17:04,961 Speaker 1: the friend that I've got they might have thought of 322 00:17:05,201 --> 00:17:06,361 Speaker 1: was rober kidd. 323 00:17:07,681 --> 00:17:07,721 Speaker 2: S. 324 00:17:07,721 --> 00:17:12,281 Speaker 1: Thinking now that always just been are you teenager? 325 00:17:12,441 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, how old you then? 326 00:17:14,041 --> 00:17:15,321 Speaker 1: You were a dan? 327 00:17:15,441 --> 00:17:18,120 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, being a silly teenager, because you're dealing with 328 00:17:18,120 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 2: the big boys now, and they were corrupt police. The 329 00:17:20,001 --> 00:17:21,921 Speaker 2: only one who wasn't, I believe, was a fellow called 330 00:17:21,921 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 2: Bill Holland was who led the raid on the house. 331 00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:27,600 Speaker 2: And he'd been there, was an Northern irishman, and he'd 332 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:30,160 Speaker 2: been arrested. He had not been arrested. He was the 333 00:17:30,201 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 2: wrestling champion Victoria police. He was a big bluff character, 334 00:17:33,961 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 2: and he'd kicked the door in and came bursting in. 335 00:17:36,961 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 2: So he was leading it. But unfortunately he was probably 336 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:42,521 Speaker 2: the only corrupt, not corrupt one that was there. Because 337 00:17:42,561 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 2: now the raid's over, everyone's charged. Your dad gets bail 338 00:17:47,441 --> 00:17:49,561 Speaker 2: and he's trying to salvage something from the wreckage here 339 00:17:49,561 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 2: as I understand it, and he goes to Bootie Kid 340 00:17:52,681 --> 00:17:56,080 Speaker 2: and who agrees to pay your dad ten thousand dollars 341 00:17:56,160 --> 00:17:59,721 Speaker 2: in real twenty dollar notes for two hundred thousand dollars 342 00:17:59,721 --> 00:18:03,001 Speaker 2: of the counterfeit money. He also asked your dad also 343 00:18:03,041 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 2: asked Kid to mind another three hundred thousand until things 344 00:18:06,521 --> 00:18:09,321 Speaker 2: quietened down. But of course Bertie was always looking after 345 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:14,440 Speaker 2: number one. He also demanded that the printing press be 346 00:18:14,481 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 2: given to him, which he moved to a stable he 347 00:18:17,281 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 2: owned at Flemington, and later your dad came to claim 348 00:18:20,761 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 2: it and the money, and kid took a sledgehammer and 349 00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:26,681 Speaker 2: destroyed it in front of him, and then he put 350 00:18:26,721 --> 00:18:29,921 Speaker 2: the wreckage in the Ara River and your dad got 351 00:18:29,921 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 2: no money back whatsoever. Do you remember those days when your 352 00:18:33,041 --> 00:18:35,321 Speaker 2: dad was trying to salvage something out of this? 353 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, remember the days, But I mean we weren't involved 354 00:18:38,921 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: in that sort of thing. We didn't know until he 355 00:18:41,241 --> 00:18:45,801 Speaker 1: got home. He never really talked about to us what happened. 356 00:18:46,001 --> 00:18:48,521 Speaker 2: He's playing a very dangerous game at that time. 357 00:18:49,120 --> 00:18:51,761 Speaker 1: The days, I say, you knew. They were sort of 358 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 1: friends for since the late fifties, and I don't know 359 00:18:58,721 --> 00:19:01,001 Speaker 1: there was up to shifty business. I think all the 360 00:19:01,001 --> 00:19:04,481 Speaker 1: way bejoined there, but whether I don't know how much 361 00:19:04,761 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: one trying there that they Dad walked around the house 362 00:19:09,961 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: with this plastic container full of jewelry and one I 363 00:19:14,281 --> 00:19:17,481 Speaker 1: was gown forty five on the top and I saw 364 00:19:17,521 --> 00:19:19,641 Speaker 1: a held it because I was so young. It was massive. 365 00:19:20,281 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: But apparently that was a bag that Birdie had throwed 366 00:19:24,681 --> 00:19:26,600 Speaker 1: thrown over the fence, so he had to go and 367 00:19:27,001 --> 00:19:31,640 Speaker 1: get it from somewhere. He'd stolen it somewhere and Dad 368 00:19:31,681 --> 00:19:32,921 Speaker 1: was supposed to hell and get it. 369 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:35,201 Speaker 2: And this was prior to the tender the notes. 370 00:19:35,321 --> 00:19:37,801 Speaker 1: I think it was just it must have been some 371 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:38,561 Speaker 1: sort of payment. 372 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:42,360 Speaker 2: Well, this is new news because Bertie didn't tell me 373 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,041 Speaker 2: that he's gone to his grave. He can't tell me now. 374 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:47,161 Speaker 2: But he called you Dad the little weasel. He didn't 375 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 2: trust him, and you know, and that's the thing about 376 00:19:49,201 --> 00:19:51,440 Speaker 2: cooks of that era. They used to do business with 377 00:19:51,481 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 2: each other, usually because they couldn't trust other people. But 378 00:19:54,241 --> 00:19:57,281 Speaker 2: your dad obviously was quite charismatic. Your dad. It eventually 379 00:19:57,360 --> 00:20:01,561 Speaker 2: gets ten years for the scam, and other family members 380 00:20:01,561 --> 00:20:04,201 Speaker 2: got shortened sentences. I think you've got a good behavior bond. 381 00:20:05,120 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: That was another story because I've been to court. I 382 00:20:09,241 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 1: did two courts, two appearances parents. Yeah, because at the 383 00:20:15,281 --> 00:20:18,600 Speaker 1: first trial failed and I had to go back to 384 00:20:18,681 --> 00:20:24,281 Speaker 1: the second court, second trial because the word was it 385 00:20:24,360 --> 00:20:28,041 Speaker 1: that Robert Kidd had got to one of the jury members. 386 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,361 Speaker 1: That was a story. I don't know if it was true. 387 00:20:30,721 --> 00:20:35,681 Speaker 1: And I had to go do a second trial and 388 00:20:35,961 --> 00:20:39,561 Speaker 1: I was found guilty and we're out waiting for sentence, 389 00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:42,201 Speaker 1: and real man was standing there and he said, hang 390 00:20:42,241 --> 00:20:45,001 Speaker 1: on a minute, and he went and come back and 391 00:20:45,001 --> 00:20:48,081 Speaker 1: he said, I've told them, if he goes, you go, 392 00:20:49,561 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: That's what he said. He told them. So when I 393 00:20:53,001 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: went in for sentences, they give me a five year bond. 394 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,321 Speaker 2: So he was saying that if you if you go. 395 00:20:58,561 --> 00:21:01,521 Speaker 1: If he goes, you go. And he sold that to 396 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:06,640 Speaker 1: somebody I don't know who, some I think nettlefol was 397 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:08,681 Speaker 1: it nettlefold to judge? 398 00:21:08,761 --> 00:21:11,801 Speaker 2: At this time? When your dad got his long sentence, 399 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,601 Speaker 2: he now decided he was going to put Kid in 400 00:21:14,801 --> 00:21:18,400 Speaker 2: for this, and so he said a message to kids 401 00:21:18,441 --> 00:21:20,240 Speaker 2: saying that if he didn't give back the money and 402 00:21:20,281 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 2: reveal the whereabouts of the press, he would finger him 403 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 2: as the mastermind of the whole thing. And Kid was 404 00:21:26,201 --> 00:21:29,201 Speaker 2: told by his police retainers. Thatton had already written statements 405 00:21:29,201 --> 00:21:32,400 Speaker 2: for the police that as yet unsigned. So there was 406 00:21:32,441 --> 00:21:36,081 Speaker 2: this standoff going on. I wrote to Berdie Kid when 407 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:38,041 Speaker 2: he was in journey jail. Actually this is going back 408 00:21:38,041 --> 00:21:40,601 Speaker 2: many years, and he actually told me some of the background. 409 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:41,880 Speaker 2: Here's some of the quote from the letter that he 410 00:21:41,921 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 2: sent me. You know, so that Jackson knew I was 411 00:21:43,961 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 2: the mastermind. They had all the money and knowledge the 412 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 2: printing press. We will follow twenty four hours a day. So, 413 00:21:49,281 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 2: being a bit brash, me and mate picked out a 414 00:21:51,441 --> 00:21:53,721 Speaker 2: card as we were on the Gold Coast. It read 415 00:21:54,001 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 2: Relaxing in the Sunshine. I got a ten dollar note 416 00:21:57,041 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 2: with no serial number on it and put it in 417 00:21:59,201 --> 00:22:02,321 Speaker 2: the card with the following, Jeff, could you please put 418 00:22:02,360 --> 00:22:04,521 Speaker 2: some numbers on the next slot, as we are down 419 00:22:04,561 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 2: to the last. When you come home, we'll drown you 420 00:22:07,201 --> 00:22:10,840 Speaker 2: in champagne and choke you with cigars. So he was 421 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 2: having a good time on these ten dollar notes and 422 00:22:12,481 --> 00:22:18,400 Speaker 2: also also confident that he wouldn't be charged. This threat 423 00:22:18,481 --> 00:22:20,281 Speaker 2: was enough for your dad to sign the statements and 424 00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:23,601 Speaker 2: Kid was arrested and charged in a blaze of publicity. 425 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:27,081 Speaker 2: Out on bail, Kid's mischief wasn't finished. Remember I told 426 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:29,041 Speaker 2: you about Bill Holland. There was a copper that first 427 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:33,121 Speaker 2: did the raid. Holland was still pursuing Kid and going 428 00:22:33,201 --> 00:22:36,201 Speaker 2: up against the corrupt coppers who were protecting him. So 429 00:22:36,481 --> 00:22:39,561 Speaker 2: Kid breaks into Holland's house and planted a few hundred 430 00:22:39,561 --> 00:22:44,120 Speaker 2: dollars in counterfeit notes in his refrigerator. Nice trick. Holland 431 00:22:44,201 --> 00:22:46,721 Speaker 2: was never never charged. There was a warning for him 432 00:22:46,721 --> 00:22:51,680 Speaker 2: to back off. He was dealing with some very powerful forces. 433 00:22:51,921 --> 00:22:55,441 Speaker 2: In the end, Kid beats all the charges, the forgery, 434 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 2: uttering and even the safe breaking at the Hampton Hotel 435 00:22:58,961 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 2: that had financed the operation. Despite your dad's detail statements 436 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:05,600 Speaker 2: against him. It was assumed that Kid to have bought 437 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,041 Speaker 2: off the jury. But I actually spoke to his barrister, 438 00:23:08,360 --> 00:23:11,561 Speaker 2: Brian Burke is now late now, and he denied this, 439 00:23:11,681 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 2: and he said the key thing was the Crown had 440 00:23:14,041 --> 00:23:17,281 Speaker 2: made a big mistake. They put up two handwriting experts 441 00:23:17,481 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 2: whose evidence contradicted each other. Therefore reasonable doubt was established 442 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,201 Speaker 2: and that was the end of any prosecution of Bootie Kidd. 443 00:23:25,201 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 2: He sails off into the sunset and he then spent 444 00:23:28,801 --> 00:23:31,761 Speaker 2: He was the main beneficiary of your dad's money because 445 00:23:31,761 --> 00:23:33,521 Speaker 2: he spent the funny money for the next two or 446 00:23:33,561 --> 00:23:36,360 Speaker 2: three years. He said he paid off corrupt coppers with it, 447 00:23:36,681 --> 00:23:40,281 Speaker 2: splashed all of erace courses across Australia, helped out mates 448 00:23:40,481 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 2: and their families who were skinned. At Christmas. I had 449 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,321 Speaker 2: a lovely time with those tenors. He told me what 450 00:23:46,521 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 2: was your family doing at the same time. 451 00:23:48,521 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 1: Oh, we was struggling not to get back, get our 452 00:23:51,561 --> 00:23:55,161 Speaker 1: lives back together. But I remember one I come into 453 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: the city one day with some friends and I was 454 00:23:58,201 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 1: just walking up up the street and the Robbie kids 455 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:04,401 Speaker 1: stepped out of the one foot air of the pub 456 00:24:04,441 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: with a pot in hand and said, can't And I 457 00:24:08,120 --> 00:24:10,801 Speaker 1: said yeah, And he said thanks for not dubbling in 458 00:24:11,801 --> 00:24:14,241 Speaker 1: and just went back in the pun. He just saw 459 00:24:14,321 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 1: me walking along the street and jumped out that I 460 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,161 Speaker 1: couldn't have dubed him in because I really didn't know 461 00:24:22,241 --> 00:24:25,721 Speaker 1: that he was involved. It was only you know, later 462 00:24:25,801 --> 00:24:27,441 Speaker 1: on there I found out he was involved. 463 00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 2: And when you visited your dad in jail and things 464 00:24:29,921 --> 00:24:30,521 Speaker 2: like that. 465 00:24:30,801 --> 00:24:33,281 Speaker 1: Yeah, we've we've visited. He went just done it more well, 466 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,640 Speaker 1: we went down there for a while, have visited me, 467 00:24:35,721 --> 00:24:37,761 Speaker 1: Mum used to go every weekend and had them more 468 00:24:37,801 --> 00:24:41,721 Speaker 1: well that it was a terrible song. Really. 469 00:24:42,441 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. And while he was in there he was writing 470 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:48,001 Speaker 2: the manuscript ten years for ten dollars. He still thought 471 00:24:48,001 --> 00:24:51,360 Speaker 2: he could goney. Yeah, he had some glory out of 472 00:24:51,360 --> 00:24:51,921 Speaker 2: this whole thing. 473 00:24:52,921 --> 00:24:55,681 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, even like I said to you one other time, 474 00:24:55,761 --> 00:24:57,880 Speaker 1: he would have reveled in all this. He would have 475 00:24:58,201 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: loved loved talking to you about it. He would have 476 00:25:00,761 --> 00:25:01,601 Speaker 1: been ride into it. 477 00:25:02,120 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I think this story needs to be 478 00:25:04,001 --> 00:25:07,360 Speaker 2: remembered because it did have an interesting twist for Australia. 479 00:25:07,481 --> 00:25:10,681 Speaker 2: Because the Reserve Bank was so concerned about the quality 480 00:25:10,681 --> 00:25:12,681 Speaker 2: of the money. Even though they disted in the court 481 00:25:12,721 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 2: and said it was amitris and so forth, it was 482 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:16,961 Speaker 2: good enough to pass once and a lot of people 483 00:25:17,120 --> 00:25:20,960 Speaker 2: passed it. So Nugget Coombs, there was a Reserve Bank governor, 484 00:25:21,120 --> 00:25:23,921 Speaker 2: turned to science for an answer. He assembled a think 485 00:25:23,961 --> 00:25:27,521 Speaker 2: tack of experts that met in Threadbow in nineteen sixty eight, 486 00:25:28,041 --> 00:25:30,521 Speaker 2: and there was a guy from Kodak there who said 487 00:25:30,561 --> 00:25:33,761 Speaker 2: that the new color printing presses were the biggest threat 488 00:25:34,321 --> 00:25:38,521 Speaker 2: and they would continue to forge money using those and 489 00:25:38,561 --> 00:25:41,241 Speaker 2: if the new banknotes could be photographed, they could also 490 00:25:41,321 --> 00:25:44,440 Speaker 2: be printed and forged. So the only way to beat 491 00:25:44,481 --> 00:25:48,840 Speaker 2: this was to insert optically variable devices they see through 492 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 2: panels and holograms that sort of change colors with different 493 00:25:52,120 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 2: light conditions and pressures. There was an expert in the 494 00:25:55,561 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 2: team in polymer technology been working at due Lux with 495 00:25:58,721 --> 00:26:02,441 Speaker 2: plastic paints, and he said that the best option would 496 00:26:02,441 --> 00:26:05,561 Speaker 2: be a radical move to a plastic polymer with these 497 00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:10,281 Speaker 2: OVDs inserted. Took twenty years and twenty million dollars to 498 00:26:10,321 --> 00:26:14,561 Speaker 2: get there. But in ninety eighty eight the first world's 499 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 2: first plastic labors in circulation the commemorative ten dollar note 500 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,201 Speaker 2: marking Australia's by centenary. So that I think we'd probably 501 00:26:22,721 --> 00:26:27,161 Speaker 2: like the fact that his caper led to world first. 502 00:26:27,241 --> 00:26:30,041 Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's right, and it's history now, isn't it. 503 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: And it's worth it's worth talking about. 504 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 2: Well, I think it is. You know. It's like so 505 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 2: many things in the in the straight world, if you like, 506 00:26:39,241 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 2: have come from criminal scams, you know, like the banks 507 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 2: we have today are as a result of the counter jumpers, 508 00:26:46,001 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 2: the arm robbers who are coming in there and robbing 509 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,481 Speaker 2: the banks through the eighties and sticking guns in people's faces. 510 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 2: The die bombs and the security it's all to do 511 00:26:53,321 --> 00:26:56,281 Speaker 2: with that. So this is just another one. And today 512 00:26:56,761 --> 00:27:00,120 Speaker 2: the Reserve Bank exports to twenty five countries. This place 513 00:27:00,241 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 2: that they really should put your dad's head on it, 514 00:27:01,921 --> 00:27:03,681 Speaker 2: don't you think? Do you think this in the corner? 515 00:27:03,801 --> 00:27:04,521 Speaker 1: Yeah, that'd be good. 516 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:06,880 Speaker 2: I reckon it should be, you know. And the fact 517 00:27:07,001 --> 00:27:11,961 Speaker 2: was that your family did pay heavily for your dad's folly. 518 00:27:12,001 --> 00:27:15,241 Speaker 1: Well, my mother never gone over and the elder sister 519 00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,041 Speaker 1: never has never gone over, so you know things are 520 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,241 Speaker 1: like that. I mean, it doesn't really affect me so much, 521 00:27:22,281 --> 00:27:25,841 Speaker 1: but it has affected the others. So you could never 522 00:27:25,961 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 1: talk about it. And DES's wife I think Des died 523 00:27:32,201 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: first and then his wife. She couldn't handle talking about 524 00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:37,600 Speaker 1: it or do this. 525 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,160 Speaker 2: And your dad didn't escape the remorse. He wrote in 526 00:27:41,201 --> 00:27:44,840 Speaker 2: his manuscript that his jail sentence was small compared to 527 00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:49,561 Speaker 2: the heartbreak, degradation and insecurity I brought on my family. Now, 528 00:27:49,681 --> 00:27:53,041 Speaker 2: as time slowly passes, the children are growing and are 529 00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 2: drifting away to their own lives. The only thing I 530 00:27:56,001 --> 00:27:58,761 Speaker 2: have left dear to me is my wife. I intend 531 00:27:58,801 --> 00:28:01,481 Speaker 2: to try to make up for the unhappiness and trouble 532 00:28:01,921 --> 00:28:06,001 Speaker 2: I've caused her. What did he do when he got out? 533 00:28:06,441 --> 00:28:09,360 Speaker 1: No, I don't know. It never changed really, sill mine 534 00:28:09,441 --> 00:28:14,640 Speaker 1: cars and all these Brian ideas. You don't never really 535 00:28:14,681 --> 00:28:15,321 Speaker 1: settle down. 536 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,481 Speaker 2: But do you think he was sort of chastened by 537 00:28:17,521 --> 00:28:19,921 Speaker 2: the jail and the whole the drama because he almost 538 00:28:19,961 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 2: lost his marriage over it. 539 00:28:21,321 --> 00:28:25,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was playing gangsters. I think I think that 540 00:28:25,521 --> 00:28:31,521 Speaker 1: was his He liked that lifestyle, but anyways didn't do 541 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:32,400 Speaker 1: him any good man. 542 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,321 Speaker 2: No, it didn't, and he did have dreams of his 543 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,321 Speaker 2: book being published and being made into a movie. Did 544 00:28:39,321 --> 00:28:40,761 Speaker 2: he know who's going to play him in the in 545 00:28:40,801 --> 00:28:41,201 Speaker 2: the film? 546 00:28:41,681 --> 00:28:44,401 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know. He's only a little bloke, 547 00:28:44,481 --> 00:28:45,961 Speaker 1: so I don't know. You'd have to find so. 548 00:28:46,081 --> 00:28:48,841 Speaker 2: Well, maybe if Jimmy Cagney was still around, he might 549 00:28:48,921 --> 00:28:50,521 Speaker 2: have gone for him. How do you feel about the 550 00:28:50,521 --> 00:28:54,001 Speaker 2: whole thing now? I mean we first spoke quite a 551 00:28:54,001 --> 00:28:56,641 Speaker 2: few years ago, and I sought you out, and no 552 00:28:56,641 --> 00:28:59,201 Speaker 2: one had really spoken from the family, and it hasn't 553 00:28:59,241 --> 00:29:03,921 Speaker 2: been easy even now recounting the story and the implications 554 00:29:03,921 --> 00:29:04,601 Speaker 2: of it. 555 00:29:04,801 --> 00:29:08,281 Speaker 1: Well, no, I don't mind talking about it, and because 556 00:29:08,361 --> 00:29:13,001 Speaker 1: I think it's a court it's historical. It's a historical 557 00:29:13,081 --> 00:29:16,521 Speaker 1: thing now and I think it's we should talk about 558 00:29:16,521 --> 00:29:20,561 Speaker 1: it at sixty years ago. And it doesn't really worry 559 00:29:20,601 --> 00:29:22,921 Speaker 1: me talking about it. But as I say, the others 560 00:29:22,961 --> 00:29:26,881 Speaker 1: are still a bit shocked, and I sure can't handle 561 00:29:26,921 --> 00:29:30,321 Speaker 1: the talking about it. But all my family know, and 562 00:29:30,361 --> 00:29:34,921 Speaker 1: my nephews and all that, No, they don't worry about it. 563 00:29:35,881 --> 00:29:38,121 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it doesn't affect part of history now. It 564 00:29:38,121 --> 00:29:41,561 Speaker 2: definitely is, and I think Boodie Kidd was always fairly 565 00:29:42,361 --> 00:29:45,281 Speaker 2: happy about his role in it, and when I told 566 00:29:45,361 --> 00:29:48,121 Speaker 2: him that it had led to the plastic notes, he 567 00:29:48,241 --> 00:29:51,241 Speaker 2: was especially chuffed about that because there weren't many things 568 00:29:51,281 --> 00:29:53,801 Speaker 2: that he was going to be remembered for other than villainy. 569 00:29:54,201 --> 00:29:57,720 Speaker 2: And he's just died. So there's going to be another 570 00:29:58,321 --> 00:30:02,081 Speaker 2: edition of his book where I believe it's going to 571 00:30:02,081 --> 00:30:04,361 Speaker 2: be revealed his role in a couple of murders. 572 00:30:05,121 --> 00:30:09,361 Speaker 1: Yeah, just from me knowing him as little as I did. 573 00:30:09,441 --> 00:30:13,281 Speaker 1: But it didn't seem that sort of a violent person. 574 00:30:13,361 --> 00:30:16,401 Speaker 1: He seemed all right, actually, what a nice block. But 575 00:30:17,881 --> 00:30:18,361 Speaker 1: you never know. 576 00:30:19,121 --> 00:30:21,841 Speaker 2: He hated bullies. That was the one thing that it 577 00:30:21,921 --> 00:30:26,201 Speaker 2: really really got him going. And he was very close 578 00:30:26,241 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 2: with a guy called Michael Sayers, who was a Melbourne 579 00:30:28,521 --> 00:30:30,720 Speaker 2: crook that was actually involved in the Fine Cotton scandal 580 00:30:30,761 --> 00:30:36,681 Speaker 2: on the end, and he fell foul. Sayers fell foul 581 00:30:36,681 --> 00:30:39,761 Speaker 2: of a guy called Roy Thurger up in Sydney, and 582 00:30:41,081 --> 00:30:45,921 Speaker 2: it's always been said that Thurger had killed Sayers. And 583 00:30:45,961 --> 00:30:50,081 Speaker 2: at Bertie's funeral there were some of mixed relatives and 584 00:30:50,601 --> 00:30:52,961 Speaker 2: they were happy to say that they felt that Bertie 585 00:30:52,961 --> 00:30:57,641 Speaker 2: had cleaned up Roy Thurger on behalf of his their 586 00:30:57,761 --> 00:30:58,281 Speaker 2: late brother. 587 00:30:59,281 --> 00:31:03,001 Speaker 1: So yes, well, like I said, I never never seen 588 00:31:03,041 --> 00:31:04,881 Speaker 1: that way to me, but I was on the eater. 589 00:31:05,321 --> 00:31:08,161 Speaker 1: But I mean, I remember one time he come to 590 00:31:08,241 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: the house and I had an old car and I 591 00:31:10,281 --> 00:31:12,921 Speaker 1: was fixing it up and he looked at the car 592 00:31:12,961 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: and he s, ah, you're doing a good job, and 593 00:31:14,521 --> 00:31:16,641 Speaker 1: I said yeah, and he said I should get you 594 00:31:16,761 --> 00:31:21,001 Speaker 1: a panel business and business or something like that. And 595 00:31:21,041 --> 00:31:24,801 Speaker 1: I just continued on, but apparently you give my mother 596 00:31:24,961 --> 00:31:29,521 Speaker 1: money to paint the car so I wouldn't be so 597 00:31:29,681 --> 00:31:32,321 Speaker 1: obvious and get picked up driving the car around. 598 00:31:32,681 --> 00:31:33,041 Speaker 2: I see. 599 00:31:33,121 --> 00:31:35,081 Speaker 1: Yeah, So it's all that sort of thing. 600 00:31:35,161 --> 00:31:38,201 Speaker 2: And he did talk about using the ten dollar notes 601 00:31:38,521 --> 00:31:41,041 Speaker 2: to give to families who were doing it tough up 602 00:31:41,041 --> 00:31:42,961 Speaker 2: in Sydney and things, and they were trying to pass them, 603 00:31:42,961 --> 00:31:46,681 Speaker 2: and they had some pretty good thieves in his team 604 00:31:47,521 --> 00:31:50,521 Speaker 2: who were going around passing the notes. And there was 605 00:31:50,561 --> 00:31:52,601 Speaker 2: one who went to the racecourse in Sydney with a 606 00:31:52,601 --> 00:31:55,041 Speaker 2: whole lot of them and tried to do some big bets. 607 00:31:55,041 --> 00:31:58,521 Speaker 2: But the bag swingers already knew this, and they closed 608 00:31:58,521 --> 00:32:00,441 Speaker 2: all the gates and there was that there was an 609 00:32:00,441 --> 00:32:03,801 Speaker 2: announcement over the speakers anybody taking Kendle and know to 610 00:32:03,841 --> 00:32:06,601 Speaker 2: be very careful. There's a scam on the course, so 611 00:32:07,281 --> 00:32:09,801 Speaker 2: it blew it. But Readie did say to me that 612 00:32:10,401 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 2: he was a bit sorry that the plastic notes finally 613 00:32:12,761 --> 00:32:15,241 Speaker 2: came in because with the paper ones, they could have 614 00:32:15,321 --> 00:32:16,881 Speaker 2: kept ruling it for years and years. So it was 615 00:32:16,881 --> 00:32:18,401 Speaker 2: a bit sorry to stuff up a good rud for 616 00:32:18,441 --> 00:32:21,481 Speaker 2: the you know, for the others. When your dad finally passed, 617 00:32:21,801 --> 00:32:24,721 Speaker 2: did he talk about that at all his regrets in life? 618 00:32:24,881 --> 00:32:28,481 Speaker 1: Or he wouldn't have regretted. Never, he wouldn't have regretted it. 619 00:32:28,881 --> 00:32:33,881 Speaker 1: He just would have regretted getting old and feeling sick 620 00:32:33,961 --> 00:32:38,121 Speaker 1: loggy when he died. But no, no, he wouldn't have regretted. 621 00:32:39,281 --> 00:32:42,081 Speaker 1: He was he was, He loved all that sort of thing. 622 00:32:42,281 --> 00:32:43,841 Speaker 1: He was a gangster, pretend gas. 623 00:32:44,481 --> 00:32:47,041 Speaker 2: Thanks to all Right, I've seen a few of those 624 00:32:47,081 --> 00:32:49,201 Speaker 2: coming go over the years. Butten Thank you Ken Mutin 625 00:32:49,241 --> 00:32:51,081 Speaker 2: for coming in and sharing this story. It's a fascinating 626 00:32:51,081 --> 00:32:54,321 Speaker 2: one and how the ten dollar note was forged back 627 00:32:54,321 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty six, and that's that's why we got 628 00:32:57,481 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 2: the plastic notes we have today. So thanks for coming in. 629 00:32:59,641 --> 00:33:01,641 Speaker 1: Yeah, no worries. Thank you for asking. 630 00:33:01,361 --> 00:33:04,761 Speaker 2: Me, absolutely pleasure. That's Ken Mutton, the son of Jeffrey Muttin, 631 00:33:05,121 --> 00:33:09,321 Speaker 2: mastermind behind the Great ten dollars forgery back in nineteen 632 00:33:09,361 --> 00:33:11,881 Speaker 2: sixty six. If you've got other stories like this, they've 633 00:33:11,921 --> 00:33:14,401 Speaker 2: never been told, let me know, manuscripts, what have you 634 00:33:14,441 --> 00:33:15,761 Speaker 2: got out there? Come on and let me know what 635 00:33:15,801 --> 00:33:19,041 Speaker 2: it is. Give me a email. Adam Shanner writer a Gmail. 636 00:33:19,321 --> 00:33:22,281 Speaker 2: This has been Adam shan for Real Crime. Thanks for listening.