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Speaker 1: From the Australian. Here's what's on the Front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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Speaker 1: It's Friday, August twenty two, twenty twenty five. China is

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Speaker 1: stepping up the pressure on Anthony Albanezi as he prepares

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Speaker 1: to recognize Palestine at the United Nations to also accept

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Speaker 1: that Taiwan must be returned to mainland China, which claims

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Speaker 1: the island is a rogue province. That's an exclusive with

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Speaker 1: China's Ambassador to Australia live now at the Australian dot

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Speaker 1: com do AU. A senior Channel nine executive has quit

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Speaker 1: a job as executive producer of a current affair. That's

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Speaker 1: after The Australian reveals her social media posts. It comes

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Speaker 1: as known entertainment tries to fix its culture and to

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Speaker 1: hear all the details, scrawl back in your feed to

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Speaker 1: find the Front's deep dive on this from earlier in

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Speaker 1: the week. Why would high flying property executives who work

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Speaker 1: for a company that claims to champion women be hanging

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Speaker 1: out at a strip club called Kittens? And why hasn't

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Speaker 1: action been taken over filthy WhatsApp chats that have been

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Speaker 1: reported to management today? The culture inside commercial real estate

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Speaker 1: giant jll Jonni Bishan edits the Australian's business column Margin Call,

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Speaker 1: And I never would have expected that in margin Call,

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Speaker 1: I'd be reading about Melbourne's number one gentlemen's club, the

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Speaker 1: perfect place to party according to their instagram kittens. What

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Speaker 1: is Kittens and why is it in margin Call?

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I should say I didn't think

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Speaker 2: I'd be writing about it, not least while we were

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Speaker 2: writing about, you know, the exciting high fly world of

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Speaker 2: industrial real estate.

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Speaker 1: Kittens.

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Speaker 2: From what I'm able to establish is what they call

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Speaker 2: a gentleman's club, which is a euphemism for a strip club.

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Speaker 2: It's where some members of this industry like to go

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Speaker 2: as a standard practice after a long night of drinking,

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Speaker 2: and it's where they unwined. And this particular bar is

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Speaker 2: a place where you're allowed to touch the waitresses serving drinks,

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Speaker 2: but above the waist only. There are private booths you

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Speaker 2: can receive lap dancers. It's basically a strip club accepting name.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty grimy, I mean, looking at their Instagram,

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Speaker 1: it's full of absolutely beautiful girls wearing terrible shoes, dancing

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Speaker 1: on poles and flaunting their lingerie. This is the kind

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Speaker 1: of place where you might have expected executives at the

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Speaker 1: top of businesses to go in the nineteen fifties or

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Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties, maybe in the eighties, but certainly not

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Speaker 1: in the twenty twenties. You're writing about kittens in the

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Speaker 1: context of a giant business called JLL. What's been going

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Speaker 1: on there?

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Speaker 2: Well, JLL is a real estate giant. It's a global

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Speaker 2: organization with thousands and thousands of employees, but it has

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Speaker 2: like many multinationals, it's got an Australian outposts and it's

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Speaker 2: pretty big. Employs a lot of people here, a large

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Speaker 2: number of them are women. And one of the things

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Speaker 2: that JL prides itself upon is that it's a champion

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Speaker 2: of women. The CEO, Dan Kernihan, he speaks about being

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Speaker 2: a champion of women. If you google him, many different

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Speaker 2: websites will come up with his online biography and will

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Speaker 2: always say that he's a champion of change, and that's

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Speaker 2: usually a reference to someone who is supportive of women

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Speaker 2: in leadership inclusive workplaces. In fact, JL is actually up

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Speaker 2: for an award later this year for running an inclusive workplace. Yep,

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Speaker 2: we're hearing these stories that are coming out now of

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Speaker 2: regular nights out at places like Kidtens. I'm sure it's

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Speaker 2: not the only strip club these guys go to. They

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Speaker 2: travel a lot for work. They're highly paid. In many ways.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about what the old mcquarie bank was, except

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Speaker 2: in the real estate industry.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that you've revealed in the column

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Speaker 1: was that there was a star employee who was subject

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Speaker 1: to an HR investigation after allegations of misconduct. This man's

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Speaker 1: name is James Jorgensen. He was jll's Victorian head of

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Speaker 1: Logistics and Industry. He's lost his job, but it took

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Speaker 1: a long road to get there. What did he allegedly

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Speaker 1: do and what did the organization do in response to

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Speaker 1: a complain about him?

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Speaker 2: Well, what we know about this investigation is that the

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Speaker 2: female complainant, she's an executive who works within the Victorian

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Speaker 2: Industrial team. She lodged a complaint that went to the

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Speaker 2: national head of HR and a number of pieces of

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Speaker 2: evidence were allegedly supplied to the investigation, and that included

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Speaker 2: reams of text messages showing a number of different interactions

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Speaker 2: and communications between this woman and this man, James Jorgensen.

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Speaker 2: The inquiry took approximately two months to complete and what

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Speaker 2: we've learned about it is that upon its completion last Wednesday,

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Speaker 2: the complainant was taken into an office with the CEO,

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Speaker 2: with the national head of HR and she was told

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Speaker 2: that the allegations that she had raised were substantiated. Now,

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Speaker 2: normal course of action from here would be that if

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Speaker 2: the allegations, and these were of a serious nature, if

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Speaker 2: the allegations had been substantiated as they were, you would

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Speaker 2: expect that a company with zero tolerance position on any

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Speaker 2: kind of harassment would terminate the employment of the person

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Speaker 2: concerned on the spot. In this particular case, the complainant

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Speaker 2: was told James Jorgenson is not going to be terminated. Instead,

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Speaker 2: he's going to be given a first and final warning.

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Speaker 2: He was going to be demoted, but he was essentially

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Speaker 2: going to stay in the same office, on the same team,

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Speaker 2: and quite unbelievably, in the same room and vicinity as

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Speaker 2: the person who had made a complaint against him. Now,

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Speaker 2: none of this makes a great amount of sense in

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Speaker 2: an era when workplace disputes are supposed to be handled

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Speaker 2: very neatly and tiderly, especially when you're an organization that

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Speaker 2: bills itself as one of the most ethical on the planet,

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Speaker 2: as JLL has been doing for the past eighteen years.

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Speaker 2: But for a company that claims to hail itself as

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Speaker 2: a champion of women, the circumstances of this particular investigation

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Speaker 2: and how it panned out just seemed to fly in

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Speaker 2: the face of everything they claim.

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Speaker 1: Joanni, you haven't gone into the gruesome details of what's

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Speaker 1: allegedly occurred here. But is it fair to say that

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Speaker 1: this relates to sexual harassment?

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Speaker 2: Yes, it certainly relates to an allegation of sexual harassment.

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Speaker 2: But as is always the case with these very complex investigations,

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Speaker 2: and usually you would bring in an external firm to

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Speaker 2: investigate this to ensure credibility and partiality. Jalel did not

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Speaker 2: do that in this circumstance. But usually in cases of

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Speaker 2: great complexity, there's two sites to a story. James Jorgensen

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Speaker 2: has his side and the complainant has her side. And

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Speaker 2: what we know, the sum total of this investigation landed

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Speaker 2: with Jorgensen being allowed to keep his job, albeit he

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Speaker 2: was found to have failed in his leadership capacity, and

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Speaker 2: for that he was given a mild to motion and

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Speaker 2: a first and final warning. And what I can tell

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Speaker 2: you is that the people inside the business were very

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Speaker 2: unsatisfied with that outcome.

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Speaker 1: There were a suite of big reforms to the Sex

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Speaker 1: Discrimination Act in twenty twenty two, which effectively mean that

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Speaker 1: organizations have a positive obligation to eliminate sexual harassment in

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Speaker 1: the workplace. They have to train their employees toderstand what

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Speaker 1: sexual harassment is, and then they have to act decisively

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Speaker 1: when sexual harassment is disclosed and or proven. How would

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Speaker 1: you characterize CEO Dan Kernahan's response in this instance and

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Speaker 1: across the board.

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Speaker 2: Probably disappointing, But I think that's a reflection of the

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Speaker 2: way a number of people within JL have spoken to me.

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Speaker 2: That's what they feel. I think most people in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty five are of the view that if you've done

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Speaker 2: the wrong thing. And I'm not speaking now specifically about

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Speaker 2: James j Orginson, because there are a number of other

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Speaker 2: actors and elements within JL that have come to the

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Speaker 2: four in recent days, so I'm speaking in generalities. But

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Speaker 2: Dan Cernahan would be aware of a number of problems,

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Speaker 2: some of which have been brought directly to him by

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Speaker 2: the senior leadership of JEL, and it would appear on

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Speaker 2: its face that very little has been done about that

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Speaker 2: I should also stress we have extended every opportunity to

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Speaker 2: speak directly with mister Kernahan to include his side of

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Speaker 2: the story in this piece, and so far that opportunity

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Speaker 2: hasn't been taken. Think it would be helpful if JLL

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Speaker 2: represented itself more thoroughly in these pieces by actually talking

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Speaker 2: to us and actually explaining to us what is going on. So,

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Speaker 2: for example, when we ask them why, when certain allegations

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Speaker 2: were brought to you two years ago, did absolutely nothing

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Speaker 2: doing occur, or did in fact something occur. There's opportunity

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Speaker 2: there for them to clarify that, but they're not taking it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you've reported that Jorgensen's reinstatement was going to happen.

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Speaker 1: Dan Kernihan wanted him to retain his job, but he

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Speaker 1: was overruled by jll's global CEO, Christian Ulbridge. That's a

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Speaker 1: big deal, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It's a massive deal for the global CEO to reach

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Speaker 2: into Australian affairs and direct that an alternative course reaction

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Speaker 2: is one that I would think the CEO would find

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Speaker 2: personally humiliating.

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Speaker 1: So that's one instance of allegations being raised at JLL.

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Speaker 1: There's also another stream of your reporting, which is about

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Speaker 1: a culture where group chats and messages are being exchanged

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Speaker 1: between staff that are kind of blue in nature, who

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Speaker 1: raising complaints about that, and what's happening to those complaints.

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Speaker 2: There were a range of senior leaders who raised these

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Speaker 2: complaints with the CEO, Dan Kernahan, and that occurred approximately

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Speaker 2: three years ago, and nothing, from my understanding, occurred as

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Speaker 2: a result of those complaints being raised or that face

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Speaker 2: to face meeting occurring. Approximately twelve months later. An entire

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Speaker 2: division in Victoria basically conducted a mass walkout in part

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Speaker 2: because of the complaints that were raised, But let's be clear,

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Speaker 2: there were other complaints that they had in mind as well.

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Speaker 2: But there were issues of misogyny and a slightly toxic

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Speaker 2: culture in relation to women that were raised with the

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Speaker 2: upper leadership at JLL, and consistently, it would appear not

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Speaker 2: much has been.

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Speaker 1: Done coming up. So is it okay to take colleagues

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Speaker 1: to a strip club in this day and age. Let's

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Speaker 1: just go back to the strip club for a minute metaphorically,

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Speaker 1: I mean. Kevin Rudd famously was reported to have attended

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Speaker 1: a strip club in the United States back before he

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Speaker 1: was elected in two thousand and seven, it was memorably

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Speaker 1: called Scores this club. I think his political enemies thought

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Speaker 1: that that story coming out would destroy him as a politician.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I think it kind of made Australians like him,

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Speaker 1: you know, think that he was less nerdy than maybe

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Speaker 1: they'd thought. In twenty twenty five, this feels very different.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think it's funny to go to

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Speaker 1: a strip club with your male employees anymore. If I

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Speaker 1: ever would have thought that, what do you think?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, there's nothing illegal about going to a

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Speaker 2: strip club. We can all go to a strip club

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Speaker 2: if we want. We can have a beer there. It's

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Speaker 2: not a big deal. However, it's not in keeping with

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Speaker 2: the high ethical standards of most organizations, particularly with the

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Speaker 2: one that's been rated one of the most ethical companies

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Speaker 2: on the planet for the last eighteen years.

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Speaker 1: Well, just pausing on that, What the hell does that mean?

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Speaker 1: I mean, how do you become one of the most

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Speaker 1: ethical companies on the planet.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's a good question, and it sounds like bullshit anyone,

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Speaker 2: and who believes it. But there is a company out

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Speaker 2: there that actually ranks using some sort of data set.

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Speaker 2: It actually ranks a top one hundred or so list

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Speaker 2: of companies around the world that are considered to be

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Speaker 2: the most ethical, and for whatever reason, JL, maybe for

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Speaker 2: very good reasons, JL keeps making it into this list,

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Speaker 2: and it's happy to crow about it every year with

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Speaker 2: its press release to investors, which literally repeats the same

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Speaker 2: language every single year, saying how proud it is.

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Speaker 1: This is like being a politician who talks about family values, right,

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Speaker 1: you're setting yourself up for a.

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Speaker 2: Full well, exactly, yes, And it's particularly because of that

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Speaker 2: that instances such did this become magnified. But to answer

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Speaker 2: your earlier question, it's indecorous to take your colleagues to

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Speaker 2: a strip club, particularly if you have seniority of those

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Speaker 2: colleagues in the office. And some people might not want

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Speaker 2: to go to a strip club, but they might feel

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Speaker 2: coerced or encouraged to do so for the sake of

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Speaker 2: their careers or other incentives. And that's probably a good

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Speaker 2: reason why one shouldn't do it. And you know, clear,

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Speaker 2: you and I know this. Most managers in most organizations

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Speaker 2: across all industries in this country. They just know. So

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Speaker 2: that's not where you take your staff with your clients

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Speaker 2: from meeting.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the advent of seenior women in most organizations

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Speaker 1: has kind of put an end to the culture of

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Speaker 1: boozing and partying anyway, because women generally, I mean, maybe

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Speaker 1: I'm revealing something about myself here, but would rather spend

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Speaker 1: lunchtime at yoga or eating a sandwich at their disk

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Speaker 1: than getting boozed with their colleagues.

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Speaker 2: And watching women on a stage in seven inch platform

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Speaker 2: heills being objectified and having money stuff down the shirts

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Speaker 2: and in the case of kittens, being touched above the waist.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure how this is how most women in

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Speaker 2: management want to spend their evenings.

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Speaker 1: How has this company handled the fact that you are

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Speaker 1: writing about this in Australia's premier business column pretty badly.

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Speaker 2: They don't appear to have a dedicated person who handles

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Speaker 2: pr inquiries, which seems a bit odd for a company

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Speaker 2: of this size in Australia and globally, so at the

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Speaker 2: moment we're dealing with people who don't seem to be

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Speaker 2: overly experienced with dealing with the national broadsheet or with

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Speaker 2: any national news outlet. Some inquiries have been diverted to

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Speaker 2: global management overseas. There are time difference issues. There seems

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Speaker 2: to be a reluctance to supply any remarks on the record,

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Speaker 2: and if they do supply those remarks, they're spars I

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Speaker 2: was a little bit surprised when some of the spikier

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Speaker 2: edgier inquiries that I've started putting through went completely unanswered.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't appear to be a great way to represent

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Speaker 2: yourself in a story that people around the country are reading.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they thought if they didn't answer you that you

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Speaker 1: might go away.

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Speaker 2: Well, we know that doesn't work.

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Speaker 1: Joannie Bishan. It's margin call in the Australian's Business section.

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Speaker 1: It's truly unmissible, especially if he's writing about your boss.

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Speaker 1: Check it out right now at the Australian dot com

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Speaker 1: dot auslash Business