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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: This is another bonus episode of I Catch Killers, and

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Speaker 1: we're going to be talking to one of the most

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Speaker 1: hated people in this country. Now that's not a very

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Speaker 1: flattering label, but when the people who hate you are

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Speaker 1: those who sexually abuse children, I reckon and that's something

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Speaker 1: you should be very proud of. Today we're sitting down

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Speaker 1: with South Australian solicitor Andrew Carpenter. We're going to talk

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Speaker 1: to Andrew about the sexual abuse of children in daycare centers.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to get Andrew's take on this hideous crime

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Speaker 1: and how he reckons it could be prevented. I think

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Speaker 1: this is a worthwhile discussion. Andrew Carpenter. It's good to

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Speaker 1: see you.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me again. Is this a third time?

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Speaker 2: I think Hall of Fame appearance worthy?

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Speaker 1: It could be something. Definitely, it's worthwhile striving for more

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Speaker 1: appearances on my catch killers so better. And it's also

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Speaker 1: good to see that you're still You've still got the

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Speaker 1: passion and the anger about chasing down people responsible for

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Speaker 1: the sexual abuse of children.

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Speaker 2: It's never stopped. In the fact I've got children of

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Speaker 2: mine now, it's religious intensifying it, especially young ones in

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Speaker 2: not only primary school but wholdcare centers. It when it's

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Speaker 2: something like this, when you know how rotten it's been

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Speaker 2: for years, it's something that hits home and it definitely

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Speaker 2: is stepped up my desire to fight the good fight.

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Speaker 1: It becomes a little bit more personal. I suppose when

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Speaker 1: you're sending you young young child off to a childcarese

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Speaker 1: and the thinking they're going to be safe.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it really it makes you you put everything into

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Speaker 2: perspective like you would be the same. When you're a

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Speaker 2: police officer, you see crimes happening, but when you see

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Speaker 2: it from the front and you've got children of your own,

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Speaker 2: you go, hang on, if I can protect my children

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Speaker 2: and their friends from anything like this, why wouldn't I?

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Speaker 2: And I've got a decent platform that I use, and

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Speaker 2: I've obviously I've never been a bit survivor, It's never

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Speaker 2: happened to me. But having children of your own and

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Speaker 2: bringing them into the big scary world, it's important that

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Speaker 2: every parent uses their best resources available to make sure

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Speaker 2: that their kids' lives are better than theirs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like a no brainer. Now, the people

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Speaker 1: that don't know who you are hadn't heard your previous

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Speaker 1: episodes on I Catch Killers. You're a solicitor from South Australia.

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Speaker 1: I first met you when we were doing the Predatory

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Speaker 1: podcast with Madeline West, which was focusing on child sexual abuse.

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Speaker 1: How did you become so involved in your activities, campaigning

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Speaker 1: and your activism for stopping this horrendous crime.

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Speaker 2: So my first law firm job was when you start

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Speaker 2: any industry, whether it's a trade or anything, they give

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Speaker 2: you the work that no one else wants to do,

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Speaker 2: and they gave me a file of a brave survivor

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Speaker 2: of child sexual abuse and no one wanted to touch it.

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Speaker 2: And then I end up winning. The action was one

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Speaker 2: of the first ones I've ever won, and I just

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Speaker 2: realized how stacked the odds are against these victor survivors,

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Speaker 2: with time periods and holes in reporting, and how rare

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Speaker 2: it is to secure a conviction. And I've started that

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Speaker 2: back in about twenty eleven, and then when I had

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Speaker 2: Children of Mind in twenty nineteen. It was the first

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Speaker 2: day of dropping my oldest life at childcare in twenty

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Speaker 2: twenty that I've realized, hang on, I know how bad

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Speaker 2: the odds are. I know how bad this is. What

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Speaker 2: can I do to try to coil this from happening?

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Speaker 2: And that's when my mum, who would always talk about

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Speaker 2: the compensation from cirpinuation that the liberals had an idea

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Speaker 2: about it in twenty eighteen, I thought, hang on, well,

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Speaker 2: if I could use that and strengthen that and give

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Speaker 2: a voice to it, why wouldn't I Because the conviction

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Speaker 2: rate is appalling, and most people in this day and

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Speaker 2: age they think about financial penalties. I'm not using my

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Speaker 2: phone in the car, not because I'm worried about demerit points.

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Speaker 2: I don't want a two thousand dollars fine, and we're

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Speaker 2: not seeing adequate deterrences with this, so I thought, hey,

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Speaker 2: on financial deterrence is key, So why don't we throw

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Speaker 2: everything we can at not dealing with things after the fact,

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Speaker 2: but actually preventing these horrific crimes from occurring. And that's

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Speaker 2: why I started the Servier Survivors campaign. And I like

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Speaker 2: to say I'm not outspoken, but I like to say

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Speaker 2: I fight the good fight, and whenever something happens, I

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Speaker 2: use my platform to highlight the risks for parents, highlight

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Speaker 2: the stats, and just to show what to look for

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Speaker 2: in any change of behavior of children.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and on that I liked. I really liked when

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Speaker 1: you first raised it. When we first start speaking about that,

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Speaker 1: the forfeiture of the superannuation, Can you just explain that

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Speaker 1: briefly to what you're talking about because people that hadn't

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Speaker 1: picked up on what you're campaigning about.

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Speaker 2: Sure, so anyone that has worked since nineteen eighty seven

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Speaker 2: will have superannuation. It's just it's an employee entitlement that

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Speaker 2: everyone has. But what happens when people are sued for

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Speaker 2: child sexual offending, what they will do is they would

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Speaker 2: sell their property and they will try and pump all

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Speaker 2: their money into their lawyer's trust account or into their

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Speaker 2: supernuation and declared bankruptcy. So the prime example which happened

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Speaker 2: recently was an AFL player named Barry Cable who had

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Speaker 2: his legend status revoked the day before his civil trial.

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Speaker 2: He declared bankruptcy and so any compensation the awarded by

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Speaker 2: ZICNA survivors couldn't be realized. But he's got money in superannuation,

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Speaker 2: so you can effectively protect that asset which is free

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Speaker 2: from bankruptcy, which cannot be taken. I'm trying to say,

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Speaker 2: hang on, why don't we do it for fraudsters? We say,

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Speaker 2: hang on, let's just reverse transactions and go after that

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Speaker 2: for them. Why can't we do it for the most

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Speaker 2: prolific crime, which happens to one and three girls and

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Speaker 2: one in five boys. By saying, if you have money

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Speaker 2: in super we're going to use that to not only

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Speaker 2: deter offending, but adequately commensate victim survivors. Because right now,

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Speaker 2: the taxpayer is effectively indemnifying child sex offenders for their crimes.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think that there's a lot of merits merit

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Speaker 1: for it, and the deterrent is a big thing if

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Speaker 1: you're looking at you build up your superannuation over the years.

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Speaker 1: If you've committed these heenious crimes in the past, and

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Speaker 1: the past comes back to haunt you, you don't walk

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Speaker 1: away with the financial security considering the damage that it's

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Speaker 1: done too. And I think you have an understanding of

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Speaker 1: that dealing with the clients that you've dealt with the

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Speaker 1: damage that he's done. When people are abused as children.

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Speaker 2: Oh well, you hear about criminals getting suspended sentence or

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Speaker 2: home detention. There's no suspended sentence or released from good

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Speaker 2: behavior for victims survivors. They're adequately they're effectively dealt a

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Speaker 2: life sentence for what's happened to them. And the most

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Speaker 2: discussing thing about it is there was a report from

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Speaker 2: doctor Judy Curtain that said, for every one thousand reports

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Speaker 2: of child sexual abuse, only one hundred are investigated by

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Speaker 2: police and three are convictors. So that's the point zero

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Speaker 2: zero three percent conviction rate per one thousand reports. Now,

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Speaker 2: out of fourteen years in this area, I could probably

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Speaker 2: count maybe no more than ten to fifteen people that

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Speaker 2: I've sued in one that actually have had a criminal conviction.

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Speaker 2: Most settle without convictions whatsoever. And this isn't a problem

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Speaker 2: you can arrest out of. And if I touched earlier,

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Speaker 2: it's one in three girls and one in five boys

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Speaker 2: will be sexually abused of all their eighteenth birthday. And

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Speaker 2: to put that into real world statistics, if you look

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Speaker 2: at an average thirty class, a thirty student classroom, statistically

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Speaker 2: five girls and three boys out of that class will

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Speaker 2: be abused. So next time you drop kids off, just

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Speaker 2: count eight out of thirty and that's when you go, Okay,

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Speaker 2: this is a real problem, and not one of those children,

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Speaker 2: if they come forward, will likely have a conviction. So

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Speaker 2: a lot of law changes are aimed at after the fact,

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Speaker 2: whether it's like Harrison James spoke about your podcast see

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Speaker 2: your reference that relevant change the legislation. But my thing

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Speaker 2: is to deter it from ever happening. If you can

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Speaker 2: tell people up front, hey, you're probably not going to

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Speaker 2: get convicted of this, but you're going to lose everything,

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Speaker 2: most people will actually stop and think and think, you know,

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Speaker 2: I don't want that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think everything that you say there makes

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Speaker 1: a lot of sense. It makes too much sense, and

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Speaker 1: it's confusing why we don't really go along those lines

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Speaker 1: and look at preventing these crimes. But I think what

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Speaker 1: establishes how a passion that you are about preventing this

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Speaker 1: evense and reducing it. You know, it's all very well

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Speaker 1: to people after the offense has happened, but the damage

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Speaker 1: has invariably been done. And what brings us to the

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Speaker 1: table today talking There's been in recent times a lot

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Speaker 1: of talk about child sexual abuse cases in childcare centers,

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Speaker 1: significantly one in Queensland, a horrific one in Queensland and

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Speaker 1: a horrific one more recently in Victoria, and that's drawn

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Speaker 1: the attention to the public going how did this occur?

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Speaker 1: What can you tell us about those two high profile cases?

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Speaker 2: So they're quite different in character. For instance, I applaud

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Speaker 2: the Victorian police. So as soon as they uncovered the

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Speaker 2: alleged offender in Victoria, they identified twenty four centers where

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Speaker 2: our crimes have been alleged to have occurred. They notified

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Speaker 2: thousands of parents and students as to what centers, a

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Speaker 2: time frame in which the alleged offender was working, and

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Speaker 2: they got on the front foot and they got twelve

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Speaker 2: hundred children to get SDI checks. They set up hotlines

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Speaker 2: for individuals so that the police in Victoria have been

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Speaker 2: great coming to the front foot and speaking to people.

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Speaker 2: But if you look what happened in Queensland with mister Griffith,

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Speaker 2: there was two years after he was arrested until the

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Speaker 2: public knew about it, two years after the fact, until

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Speaker 2: people knew what was actually happening. But the hardest thing

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Speaker 2: with that is that the public still doesn't know what

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Speaker 2: centers this offender went to. And we're talking about almost

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Speaker 2: three thousand accounts at the start. I think they whittled

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Speaker 2: it down to about fifteen hundred, but it was seventy

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Speaker 2: three children he was found or he pled guilty to abusing.

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Speaker 2: But the public still does not know which center he went,

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Speaker 2: he worked, at what time frame this occurred. And so

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Speaker 2: there could be hundreds, if not thousands, of other students

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Speaker 2: out there that have been impacted by this individual in

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Speaker 2: Queensland that will never be known to life because we

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Speaker 2: know what a child who is between the ages of

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Speaker 2: two and fours, Like I asked my oldest son who's

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Speaker 2: five today, if he remembers a child that he went

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Speaker 2: through preschool, toler and KINDI with that he last saw

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Speaker 2: a year ago, he couldn't remember who it was. And

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Speaker 2: you've got children now five years after the fact of

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Speaker 2: when this guy had his main offenses, they wouldn't remember

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Speaker 2: a thing that happened to him. So the issue here

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Speaker 2: is that we've got one police force's coming out at

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Speaker 2: the front foot saying we need to adequately investigate this now.

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Speaker 2: But then we've got the Queensland police officers that have

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Speaker 2: investigated this with a cloud of secrecy where the full

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Speaker 2: extent of his crimes will never be truly found. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we're not even at the tip of the iceberg with

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Speaker 2: queens An. I don't think we're even at the breeze

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Speaker 2: over the top of the iceberg with a level offending.

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Speaker 2: So the biggest thing to come from this is that

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Speaker 2: it's disgusting what happened in the childcase centers, both in

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Speaker 2: Queensland and the allegations of Victoria. But the thing to

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Speaker 2: realize is that eighty percent of child abuse is incesture.

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Speaker 2: Ninety two percent is known. So the people that wanted

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Speaker 2: to pour their children out of childcare at this stage

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Speaker 2: don't realize that the most dangerous place for a child

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Speaker 2: to be is in the family home. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think that's an interesting point because the headlines

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Speaker 1: can distought the reality or the truth that childcare centers

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Speaker 1: a dangerous place, these things can happen, But you've highlighted

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Speaker 1: the fact that the majority of child sexual abuse occurs

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Speaker 1: in their own home, which is a significant point. Breaking

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Speaker 1: down that Queensland one because we can talk about that

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Speaker 1: in more detail because the matter has been before the court.

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Speaker 1: So it was actually Paul Griffith, he was recently sentenced

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Speaker 1: to life imprisonment after admitting to more than three hundred

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Speaker 1: defences against sixty nine girls at daycare facilities in Brisbane

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Speaker 1: and Italy. The magnitude of that beyond belief that he

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Speaker 1: could get away with something for so long, with so many,

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Speaker 1: so many victims, But it clearly shows there's a failing

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Speaker 1: in the way that we prevent these crimes and detect them.

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Speaker 2: Well, the thing with mister Griffiths with was that his

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Speaker 2: crimes were preventable and foreseeable. There was people dating back

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Speaker 2: nine years that actually first raised concerns about him. He

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Speaker 2: was spoken to by the police, but they didn't even

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Speaker 2: take steps to go through his devices, which they would

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Speaker 2: have found tens of thousands of images of child abuse,

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Speaker 2: and he would frequently change childcare centers. He would only

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Speaker 2: abuse children I think under four because he realized that

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Speaker 2: they were ones that would most likely not be able

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Speaker 2: to talk. But he was actually sending out letters to

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Speaker 2: parents of childcare centers where they're investigations of other staff members.

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Speaker 2: They're saying that children are meant to be safe and

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Speaker 2: they should be taken care of. In fact, at one stage,

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Speaker 2: he felt a sign of guilt and he deleted all

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Speaker 2: of his images that he collated over these years, only

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Speaker 2: to shortly thereafter download them again. So his was calculated,

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Speaker 2: and it was over a span of time, and the

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Speaker 2: parents that complained about him earlier on didn't see any recourse.

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Speaker 2: In fact, there was a whistleblower that was charged criminally

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Speaker 2: with computer hacking for simply raising the fact that their

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Speaker 2: earlier concerns were not investigated.

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Speaker 1: Can we talk about that. I had the discussion with

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Speaker 1: you before the podcast. Are you comfortable to talk about

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Speaker 1: that the details heard that? Because yeah, again we should

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Speaker 1: the leaning or the balance should always be in favor

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Speaker 1: of protecting the children, and this situation just seems to

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Speaker 1: be very off track on what the response should have

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Speaker 1: been when someone brings this to the attention of authorities.

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Speaker 2: It went. So what happened was when the story first

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Speaker 2: broke after it was two years after they first identified

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Speaker 2: mister Griffin. They had identified him. I think it was

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Speaker 2: overseas where they found some blankets that were actually used

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Speaker 2: in some of the videos and they pinned pointed them

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Speaker 2: to blankets us in Queensland childcare facility. So that's how

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Speaker 2: they first got a hold of him. And so when

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Speaker 2: I went to the media, there was a whistleblower that

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Speaker 2: actually went to a current affair and said I notified

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Speaker 2: a center years ago this was happening, and they said, well,

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Speaker 2: how all right, Well, as any proper journalists would do,

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Speaker 2: they'd investigated. They said, can you send us an email

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Speaker 2: of where this first came from. So she pulled out

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Speaker 2: her work laptop and she sent the email to a

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Speaker 2: journalist saying here's proof that was sent. A few days later,

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Speaker 2: a task force rocked up at a doorstep and raided

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Speaker 2: her house and she got charged with computer hacking all

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Speaker 2: for simply saying, here is evidence of me providing the

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Speaker 2: childcare center proof that I had made a previous complaint

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Speaker 2: and so that matter went a trial. She went through

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Speaker 2: the ringers of a trial and her fight got made public.

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Speaker 2: Yet the offender, who sat in secrecy for many years,

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Speaker 2: was able to keep his anonymity for quite some time.

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Speaker 1: It's easy to forget lessons learned without focusing on that

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Speaker 1: specific case. But you did bring up, and I want

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Speaker 1: to delve into this side of it. It gets brought

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Speaker 1: to the attention of police. I would suggest there's a

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Speaker 1: responsibility there to make sure it's responded too quickly, because

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Speaker 1: as long as someone's not no one's investigating an allegation,

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Speaker 1: there's potential for that offender to com meet further offenses.

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Speaker 2: All complaints should be immediately investigated, and police have general

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Speaker 2: search warrants where if someone reports a crime, they can

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Speaker 2: go and access their devices. If a four year old

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Speaker 2: is going up to their parents and saying this person

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Speaker 2: touched me in appropriately and they go to the police,

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Speaker 2: there should be no rhyme or reason why police don't

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Speaker 2: immediately go and speak to that person, get their devices

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Speaker 2: and see that. If they did that, I believe it

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Speaker 2: was twenty eighteen, they would have found thousands of images

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Speaker 2: and videos and his reign of terror would have ended.

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Speaker 2: Then I just think it's a lot of these institutions

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Speaker 2: they don't want to deal with at front on because

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Speaker 2: they're worried about their bottom line and their exposure. But

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Speaker 2: if they come on the front foot saying we've put

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Speaker 2: this person on paid leave while we investigate this, you

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Speaker 2: know we're not saying he's done it. We just want

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Speaker 2: to make sure that we protect children. Our children are

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Speaker 2: our number one resource in this country who are going

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Speaker 2: to put in the great steps in the future. But

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Speaker 2: if they go down the tracks, so we need to

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Speaker 2: investigate all credible complaints and or even to go on

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Speaker 2: holiday for a week, let's just talk to the parents,

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Speaker 2: talk to the child, We'll get police to come out.

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Speaker 2: If there's an all clear after devices looked at, then

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Speaker 2: so be it. But when you've got multiple people from

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Speaker 2: multiple centers in Queensland that have raised concerns over years

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Speaker 2: and that I never investigated, it definitely raises concerns as

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Speaker 2: to the government or the institutions were negligent by not

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Speaker 2: actually following this through.

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Speaker 1: It's concerning that they weren't all compiled to like one

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Speaker 1: allegation that someone doesn't carry the weight of If there's multiple,

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Speaker 1: independent of each other, allegations about the same person, it

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Speaker 1: tends to paint a picture. The number of victims and

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Speaker 1: how many offenses. Does that come as a surprise to you.

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Speaker 1: You've been focusing on this area, this horrible area, for

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Speaker 1: a long time. Does it come as a surprise to

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Speaker 1: you the amount of victims in these cases?

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Speaker 2: Not at all. If you've got someone who's abusing children

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Speaker 2: at a school or a church, or a scout or

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Speaker 2: a sporting club, you're effectively having new children coming in

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Speaker 2: every year. I was shocked that he pled guilty to

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Speaker 2: as many counts as he did, because usually what happens

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Speaker 2: is they might charge someone with three or four thousand

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Speaker 2: counts and it gets downgraded into a few. But when

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Speaker 2: there's individuals like this that have footage of the offending

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Speaker 2: and they're actually using it as a kind of currency

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Speaker 2: to other individuals, it's in their vested interests to actually

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Speaker 2: continue to sell them. They're not getting caught with doing it,

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Speaker 2: and so they can to you. And it's like frauds

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Speaker 2: is for instance, like you see a lot of frauds

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Speaker 2: as they start sealing one hundred dollars here and there,

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Speaker 2: and then after a year they start going a thousand

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Speaker 2: and then go upwards. It's when there's a level of

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Speaker 2: a level of risk to it and they don't get caught,

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Speaker 2: it intensifies. And with mister Griffith, he deleted everything because

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Speaker 2: he felt bad about it, but then he continued to reoffend,

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Speaker 2: which didn't I think that was more of a thing

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Speaker 2: for sentencing submissions for him to try and downgrade his role.

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Speaker 2: But if you are persistently abusing children over a period

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Speaker 2: of years and you're saving images into hard drives, depicting

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Speaker 2: the titles of what you're actually doing and using it

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Speaker 2: for currency, you're not sorry you did it. You're sorry

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Speaker 2: you got caught. But the hardest thing with that is

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Speaker 2: that it could have been stopped so much earlier. And

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Speaker 2: we've seen how a lot of people have come forward

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Speaker 2: and blaming men for this, which is it's predominantly a

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Speaker 2: male crime, but saying banning all men from childcare centers

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Speaker 2: and baming all homosexual men from trying to child carease centers.

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Speaker 2: The hard thing is it's not a crime dominated by homosexuals.

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Speaker 2: It's predominantly straight males that engage in this offending. So

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Speaker 2: I think what you need to do with this sort

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Speaker 2: of offending is make sure that the institutions and the

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Speaker 2: childcare centers are liable for their own acts. So don't

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Speaker 2: handball off to the offender. Say to these childcase centers,

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Speaker 2: you are liable for any abuse that happens under your watch.

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Speaker 2: And you watch how quickly these centers will set up

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Speaker 2: on their insurers, will set up cameras and set up

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Speaker 2: offsite cctv A professionals to review everything. If you watch

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Speaker 2: childcase centers start actually adequately monitoring what they're doing, you'll

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Speaker 2: see how quickly they act when it comes to an

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Speaker 2: allegation of a child. If a child comes forward within

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Speaker 2: a few months and says this happened to me, they

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Speaker 2: be able to go back to all the footage involving

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Speaker 2: that child and see where the offender was, and if

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Speaker 2: an offender's in close proximity or if they're taking children

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Speaker 2: to dark spots in childcare centers, people should entertainously raise

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Speaker 2: concerns about what's happening, because in my experience, when a

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Speaker 2: child comes and says that someone touched me in this area,

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Speaker 2: it's a credible threat because children don't know, especially younger

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Speaker 2: children don't know what's happened to him was wrong. Most

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Speaker 2: of most children learn what happened to them was wrong

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Speaker 2: when they start learning things about sexual ed But education

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Speaker 2: is important for children, especially for parents, saying these are

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Speaker 2: your private parts. You always let us know you won't

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Speaker 2: be in trouble. If anyone touches you there, you come

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Speaker 2: to us right away. So it's an education thing for

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Speaker 2: the parents, but it's also a risk limiting thing for

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Speaker 2: the individuals involved.

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Speaker 1: Well, just focusing on the point that you made. They're

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Speaker 1: making the organization or institutional institution liable for what occurs,

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Speaker 1: because I think we saw that in the history of times,

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Speaker 1: where an institution it's just a rogue rogue priest or

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Speaker 1: a rogue scout leader, something along those lines. But what

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Speaker 1: you're saying is making the child care senda's liable for

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Speaker 1: anything that the curves on there. And then then the

401
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Speaker 1: highly motivates people then to make sure this type of

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Speaker 1: thing doesn't occur because they count wipe their hands of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it takes seconds to abuse a child if you're

404
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Speaker 2: in centers like this, But when someone's able to procure

405
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Speaker 2: hundreds of hours and tens of thousands of images of

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Speaker 2: abuse material, it's something that other staff members could have seen,

407
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Speaker 2: something they could know. If there's a staff member taken

408
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Speaker 2: a child to a dark zone, to the place, or

409
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Speaker 2: leading them to the very back corner, questions should be

410
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Speaker 2: asked immediately where this is a training thing. People are

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Speaker 2: entrusting these organizations with their children. They're making a lot

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Speaker 2: of money. I think I'm spending three or one hundred

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Speaker 2: dollars a week on my childcare center for my child,

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Speaker 2: and you want to make sure if you're dropping your

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Speaker 2: children off, you should be safe. They have insurance in place.

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Speaker 2: Obviously they want to limit their exposure. So it should

417
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Speaker 2: be up for these centers to make sure that they

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Speaker 2: are not only there's staff trained, but also there's cameras

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Speaker 2: everywhere prevent this from occurring. Because there's been some people

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Speaker 2: in South Australia the past week. They've lost their jobs

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Speaker 2: because they've used child care property to send photos of

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Speaker 2: nappy rashes to parents and say, hey, there's a very

423
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Speaker 2: bad nappy rash now. That wouldn't have happened six months ago,

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Speaker 2: that would have happened a year ago. The only silver

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Speaker 2: lining from what's happened in Queensland and the allegations in

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Speaker 2: Victoria that child care centers are finally taking a stand.

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Speaker 2: This is the third worst one we've had in the

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Speaker 2: past four or five years, and it should have been

429
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Speaker 2: the first time that we heard that all these changes happen,

430
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Speaker 2: but they're now going This is a live issue and

431
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Speaker 2: this topic that I've been pushing for years. It's such

432
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Speaker 2: an uncomfortable thing. Often blame my wife for being the

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00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,520
Speaker 2: reason why it's wrong, and that's not saying aside my wife.

434
00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:48,160
Speaker 2: It's that whenever there's anything on the news about child

435
00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:50,600
Speaker 2: abuse having young children, my wife so I don't want

436
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 2: to watch, and I'm like, no, you're a parent, you

437
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,440
Speaker 2: need to watch this. It's not a thing that happens

438
00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:00,239
Speaker 2: to very rare people. It's prevalent in the community, and

439
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 2: it's something that parents need to be aware of, be

440
00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 2: vigilant of, and actually get on the front foot with it.

441
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:08,679
Speaker 1: Well, Andrew, I think you've identified a major problem about

442
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 1: the nature of this crime. It's such an uncomfortable topic

443
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,640
Speaker 1: that people don't want to talk about it. But that's

444
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 1: the very thing that the people will commit these offenses

445
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:18,880
Speaker 1: pray on the fact that it's confronting them. People don't

446
00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 1: want to talk about it. I want to break down

447
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,720
Speaker 1: how we can strengthen and make it harder for an

448
00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 1: offender to come into a childcare situation if we focus

449
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 1: on that. Invariably, when offenses like this occur, when it

450
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 1: does blow up, when it explodes, people start to say, yeah,

451
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: I thought that person was a bit strange, or yeah,

452
00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 1: there was something that made me feel uncomfortable. They see

453
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: it and hear it time and time again, this type

454
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: type of narrative. People have got to come forward, and

455
00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,399
Speaker 1: I think there is some merit to the police stepping in. Now.

456
00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:50,719
Speaker 1: The police don't have to come in heavy handed, but

457
00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,200
Speaker 1: if you're committing these type of offenses and someone's reported

458
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 1: or brought it to the attention of police, and police

459
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,239
Speaker 1: come in and speak to the person, just maybe that

460
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 1: might be a the part of a deterrent that might

461
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,399
Speaker 1: stop it. If they get away of it, they might

462
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: go straight back to it. But I think it's a

463
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:08,880
Speaker 1: step in the right direction to at peace put them

464
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 1: on notice. And you would like to think that these allegations.

465
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 1: If if someone's worked multiple childcare centers and there's been allegations,

466
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 1: maybe unsubstantiate allegations at more than one of those places,

467
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: you'd really want to have a look at that person,

468
00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:24,760
Speaker 1: wouldn't you.

469
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And especially they're talking about work with Child certificate.

470
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 2: If there's allegations that weren't investigated by police officers, it

471
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 2: would never pop up in a work with children investigation.

472
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:38,520
Speaker 2: There's some industries that have databases of individuals that go

473
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 2: between different different centers or different employers where they've actually

474
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 2: got comments of past performance or history where people can

475
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 2: actually say, all right, well this person had allegations here,

476
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 2: but there's no rhyme or reason why. If there's an allegation,

477
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,760
Speaker 2: it wouldn't take much police resources to have an officer

478
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,280
Speaker 2: go speak to the person, take a hard drive, say

479
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,280
Speaker 2: we're just going to download all the content as you

480
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,200
Speaker 2: phone your laptop at home, just to make sure that

481
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,880
Speaker 2: there's no credible issues here. Because these individuals, they work

482
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 2: with a large network of offenders where they actually use

483
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: these images as currency to trade, and some of the

484
00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 2: dark web groups actually enabled for someone to be let in,

485
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:21,800
Speaker 2: they need to first upload some new child abuse material

486
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 2: which they've never seen before. So if you get someone

487
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 2: that's had their hard drive search by police, they might

488
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 2: go on these groups say hey, I'm out like this

489
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,280
Speaker 2: happened to me. I don't want to bar of this.

490
00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 2: I don't want I don't want this because it's the

491
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 2: child abuse images. They don't normally involve a period of grooming.

492
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,679
Speaker 2: They're normally sporadic. We know how quickly it takes to

493
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,359
Speaker 2: take a photo of someone, especially if you're a childcare worker.

494
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 2: When you're taking the photo of changing and appy, you

495
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 2: can pull your phone out, take a photo and put

496
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 2: it back in within seconds. But the physical app against

497
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,199
Speaker 2: a child takes a significant period of grooming to get

498
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 2: their trust and get close to them. So quite simply

499
00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,440
Speaker 2: just getting a quick check of a phone.

500
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 1: It makes a lot of sense there. I for the

501
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 1: I'm thinking that if an allegation has been made, police

502
00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,400
Speaker 1: are called out, they might be able to stantiate. Even

503
00:27:16,440 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: if they do what you've said, they do, seize the phone,

504
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: do all that, it might be unsubstantiated. But when I

505
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 1: was in the police, we had intel on people. So

506
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 1: there could be a person that look like they're about

507
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: to commit an armed robbery, but they were stopped beforehand,

508
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: but that intel would be on their record. That it's

509
00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 1: not proof of committing a criminal offense, but it makes

510
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: you wary of the fact that that person was caught

511
00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: outside a bank with a balaclavorn for one of an example.

512
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 2: Well, look at the anti association laws, like if you've

513
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: got two perhaps biking members in the same location together,

514
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,880
Speaker 2: it's not asked questions later, it's go in. You're both

515
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 2: here in the place you're underrest, out to go where

516
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 2: there's nothing stopping hundreds of child offenders from meeting a

517
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,399
Speaker 2: playground or go into a Wiggles concert like it's the

518
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:05,119
Speaker 2: resources are there and the scared tacle it can be

519
00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 2: there if they're actually properly used.

520
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: Okay, let's look at taking away those specific cases, taking

521
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:15,639
Speaker 1: away the cases that we've talked about, but looking at

522
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,479
Speaker 1: how could we prevent this crime across the board And

523
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: you mentioned and well I didn't have it on the list,

524
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 1: but I hadn't thought about phones. Is it over stretching

525
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: to say that no one can have their mobile phone,

526
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 1: Like even employees there that they've got to sign it

527
00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,159
Speaker 1: into the office and mobile phone when they come in,

528
00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 1: so they don't have access to the mobile phone or

529
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 1: any device that can take photos.

530
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 2: In South Australia, there's a big submarine corporation down in

531
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 2: near Port Adelaide, where because it's effectively a defense initial security. Yeah,

532
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 2: people are forced to sign their phones in before their start. Like,

533
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:55,840
Speaker 2: I think one of the big thing is Apple watches

534
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 2: as well, people can I don't know if Apple watches

535
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 2: take photos, but even having a on it's successful to

536
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 2: your phone. One of the main things should be that,

537
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,720
Speaker 2: especially when you're around children, when one of the most

538
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 2: dominant things about children are potentially child exploitation images being taken,

539
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:13,960
Speaker 2: have them set aside. There's no reason why employees can

540
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: take five minutes and go check their phone if they're

541
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 2: going to sick child, or give an emergency number or

542
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 2: even a number to call the childcare center if they

543
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 2: need to be spoken to right away. But the reason

544
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 2: why these individuals have been caught recently is because the

545
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 2: images that have had on their phone is basically paint

546
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 2: the target on their back. So that's one way to start.

547
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 2: I think the biggest thing to start up front is

548
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 2: to actually have people talking about this.

549
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: What you mentioned there, Like, I'm thinking, Ah, it might

550
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: be too much of an imposse to take people's phones,

551
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 1: but you can only use your phone in the office era.

552
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 1: The phone's got to remain in the office era, and Also,

553
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: if you're caught with any device, because now you've got

554
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 1: glasses that can take for those, you've got all sorts

555
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: of things, any device that can have taken image, it's

556
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: a sackable offense. You've breached the the code of conduct

557
00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 1: for working in that place. So they say that they

558
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: seem over the top and stringent, but when we're talking

559
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: about these crimes, the priority has to be protecting protecting

560
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:13,160
Speaker 1: the children.

561
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 2: And what we've seen in schools in South Australia, they're

562
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 2: actually banning mobile phone use for students between the classes.

563
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 2: So what they're doing is they're putting their phones in

564
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 2: a lock bag during the day they're still on campus.

565
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 2: They still can use them if there's an emergency, but

566
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,280
Speaker 2: it's to stop them from being distracted in class. And

567
00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 2: when we're seeing government's banning phones from children because they're

568
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 2: seeing text messages, it's like, wow, the children aren't producing

569
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 2: a level of exploitation material is other people. So it's

570
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,440
Speaker 2: not a hard task about that. They wouldn't require any

571
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 2: change in legislation. It would just be a center policy

572
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,479
Speaker 2: do not have your phones during the day. That's nothing

573
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 2: that would cause any debate, and I don't think the

574
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 2: governments will will blank an eye in discrimination wise, if

575
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 2: a childcare center says, look, well, you've been fired because

576
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 2: we gave a direct a direction not to use your

577
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 2: phone during time. Someone's walking around a change table pulling

578
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 2: their phone out messaging, it's a sack of all events.

579
00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 2: It's a breach of contract.

580
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:21,320
Speaker 1: It makes sense to me. What about CCTV footage cameras

581
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 1: installed in places like this and to make sure that

582
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: all the areas are captured, all the air appropriate areas

583
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: are captured, so people can't offend around the quiet corner.

584
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: What's your thoughts on that type of setup.

585
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 2: If laws are introduced to basically hold childcare centers liable

586
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 2: for any crime spin as a child, it would be

587
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 2: the number one way to protect themselves and to deterror offending.

588
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 2: If institutions started having CCTV cameras. And this isn't like

589
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 2: a zoom ring sorry, not a zoom a ring doorbell cam.

590
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 2: This is getting specialized security experts to into the building

591
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 2: and make sure that there's no dead spot. But the

592
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 2: only issue with that is that, well, who's going to

593
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 2: have access to the CCTV footage to them unless there's

594
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: Unless there's a specialized off not offshore but off site

595
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 2: entergy that has these or even storage, so they don't

596
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: have anyone that can actually adequately monitor these things twenty

597
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,760
Speaker 2: four to seven. I mean, look a look at this

598
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 2: level of storage you can get now people can back

599
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 2: up years worth of footage and technology. Now. I remember

600
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 2: when when USB sticks first came out, there were sixty

601
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 2: seventy dollars where you can get a terrabyte which I

602
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 2: think it's a thousand gig of memory for you know,

603
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 2: not even one hundred bucks from jbhi Fi. So there

604
00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 2: are storage means available. There's there's way for the cloud,

605
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:56,280
Speaker 2: but that way, if there's any investigating done with with offenders,

606
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 2: it can be done. Look at there was a swimming

607
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,760
Speaker 2: center in I think the Eastern States where they use

608
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 2: AI to actually monitor a swimming lapse. The a I

609
00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 2: actually identified a swimmer that had a health issue in

610
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 2: the middle of a swim and started sinking and alarm

611
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,000
Speaker 2: bells went off and staff actually went there to it.

612
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 2: So one of the big concerns to me for CCTV

613
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 2: footage is if anyone accessed it. If there's a camera

614
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 2: above a change table, that would be prime positioning for

615
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: an offender to use. But if there's say if a

616
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 2: child came home with UTIs for instance, and it was

617
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,640
Speaker 2: only utiy's when there was a certain worker working, well,

618
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 2: and that's the case right, Well, you know there's always

619
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,400
Speaker 2: spreadsheets of when a child's nappy was changed, so you

620
00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 2: can try and pinpoint when the nappy was changed to

621
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 2: see if anything happened to that child.

622
00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: Well, it does come with it's inherent risks. I suppose

623
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: who's going to access it? But I know the type

624
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:51,640
Speaker 1: of CCTV cameras security that they have set up in

625
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 1: prisons where it doesn't have to be monitored live. But

626
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 1: if they find out the bed than the fence of

627
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 1: the curve the week before, they can go back and

628
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:02,719
Speaker 1: access at particular time and access that camera. So again

629
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 1: it's something that if these people and they manipulate, they

630
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: manipulate the type of people that abuse children. They're picking

631
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:12,839
Speaker 1: on the children because they don't report the crimes. They're

632
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:16,120
Speaker 1: putting themselves in an industry where they potentially can have

633
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:19,760
Speaker 1: access to children. But to put that risk, that threat

634
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: that okay, well we're capturing everything that goes on here,

635
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 1: so you yeah, you better behave yourself. It feels to

636
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: me like it would be a deterrent.

637
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 2: It would be, But I think the one thing that

638
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 2: parents need to look at now is to have these

639
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 2: uncomfortable discussions with their children and with other family members

640
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 2: and say, look, you know, this is what we need

641
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 2: to do. We need to tell our child about this.

642
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,120
Speaker 2: If anyone touches you in a bad way, this is

643
00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:48,399
Speaker 2: something you need to tell us. And it's there's never

644
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 2: an easy way to say this. But the only silver

645
00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 2: lining about what's happened here is bringing child abuse to

646
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 2: the forefront. We've seen influencers talk about it, We've seen

647
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 2: athletes talk about that. You no one ever talks about

648
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 2: this thing because it's so taboo. But when this is

649
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 2: in the forefront of every news story, this is time

650
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 2: to pull the trigger and say, right, you know, this

651
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 2: is the thing. Look. Look, last year they had all

652
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: these protests about domestic violence. Domestic violence impacts one in

653
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 2: six women, so females are twice as likely to be

654
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,399
Speaker 2: sexually abused rather than have a domestic violent crime against them.

655
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:25,960
Speaker 2: But there was all these protests, there was people shutting

656
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: down streets, so they should protesting this, But people don't

657
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,200
Speaker 2: want to have these uncomfortable conversations about this and it's

658
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 2: something that parents need to come to the table. Parents

659
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 2: need to stand up. Like every week, I do videos

660
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,480
Speaker 2: every Friday on my Instagram page where I detail the

661
00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 2: percentage of people charted the District Court of South Australia

662
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 2: per week with a sexual offend against a child. Guess

663
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 2: how many percent today in South Australia of all the

664
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:52,320
Speaker 2: district court lists, how many people are charged with child abuse?

665
00:35:54,160 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: Afraid do I ask? How many?

666
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 2: Thirty five point four percent today alone on the list?

667
00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 2: On the list. And so the reason why these matters

668
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,240
Speaker 2: aren't reported is because eighty percent is ancestral and ninety

669
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 2: two percent is known to the VICNAM survivor. So if

670
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 2: you can identify the offender or the child, you can't

671
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 2: identify the offender. And the reason why it's ever reported

672
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 2: on because the meta outlets don't want to breach the

673
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 2: Evidence Act in South Australia or the equivalent of other states.

674
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 2: Because this is a real pressing issue that although it

675
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: can't be discussed about those instances, when something like this happens,

676
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 2: it's a time for parents to talk about. Look at

677
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 2: nine to eleven for instance, nine to eleven was the

678
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 2: safest time for air travel because as soon as that happened,

679
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 2: it was terrible what the attacks were. But after that

680
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 2: security systems were set up. There was weapon detectors. You know,

681
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 2: if someone has a nail clippers in their carry on bag, no,

682
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 2: that's a dangerous weapon. So when something like this happens,

683
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 2: it's terrific. But you then see the pendulum swing in

684
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,440
Speaker 2: favor of the victor survivor of hey, how can we

685
00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 2: stop this happening again? And until people speak about this,

686
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 2: and I mean I think people speaking about it is

687
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,799
Speaker 2: more important right now than having laws implemented, because the

688
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: more people discuss it, the more prevalent people will see

689
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,880
Speaker 2: how it is. And having these chats with their children

690
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 2: will make sure that they can understand body autonomy, understand

691
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 2: what good and bad touching is, and at least go

692
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 2: to your parents and say, hey, you know, uncle Bob

693
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 2: squeezed me here the other day and I didn't like it.

694
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty when I say it's simple, it's fairly

695
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: obvious that the type of things that should be done.

696
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: And you know, part of in our discussions before we

697
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 1: got you on here, I wanted to talk about this

698
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 1: because it was prevalent, and really get it out there

699
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: so people talk about it. Because these crimes have flourished

700
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: because people don't talk about it. And yeah, way back

701
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: when we're doing the Preparatory podcast, that's the thing that

702
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: we're talking about very much, that it's such a horrific

703
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:58,280
Speaker 1: crime and it's some uncomfortable thing to talk about. People

704
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it. What about reporting notifications?

705
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 1: Your thoughts on that can we improve reporting incidents notifications

706
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: like compulsory reporting, statutory reporting if you become aware of

707
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: offenses like this and then the offense if you don't report.

708
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's what part of the Royal Commission actually

709
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,879
Speaker 2: touched on. There was Everson's The Royal Commission came out

710
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,359
Speaker 2: and said people need to be charged they if they

711
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 2: withhold information. There's not been one conviction since twenty fifteen

712
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 2: about people withholding knowledge. We've seen George Pell before he

713
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 2: passed away, there was a countless people that came forward

714
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 2: saying that he knew about things. The reporting is it

715
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 2: should be, it's mandatory. I think mandatory reporting in South

716
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 2: Australia came in nineteen seventy five and then in nineteen

717
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 2: eighty one. It was actually extended to teachers. I don't

718
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 2: think it fell into childcare workers back then, but mantar

719
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,560
Speaker 2: reporting but actually to a specialized database. But the number

720
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,680
Speaker 2: one thing that I think is most important when it

721
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:06,240
Speaker 2: comes to reporting is that when say, a child's abuse

722
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,280
Speaker 2: by a big scary man, having a big scary police

723
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 2: officer in a room that's just got four walls and

724
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:15,319
Speaker 2: a door in it is not the thing. I think

725
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,080
Speaker 2: One of the main things that need to be done

726
00:39:17,280 --> 00:39:21,400
Speaker 2: is a social worker or a child psychologist actually conducts

727
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 2: some of these first interviews with children because it's a

728
00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 2: lot of children do not want to recount this, but

729
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 2: after there's some rapport that's granted, they will actually want

730
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,360
Speaker 2: to discuss it. And we even see in say in

731
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 2: courts in around around Australia, fighters agains child who abuse Australia.

732
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,840
Speaker 2: They implemented things where they wanted to have support dogs

733
00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 2: and even something as simple as a judge d robing

734
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,840
Speaker 2: I've simply taken off their wig and gown and sitting

735
00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 2: next to the child at the table and saying Hi,

736
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 2: my name's my name is Bob. I'm working here Astralia.

737
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,000
Speaker 2: I just want to hear because it's a very, very

738
00:40:03,000 --> 00:40:05,840
Speaker 2: weird thinking. One big example that I've always just spoken

739
00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 2: about is that people still picture themselves as that young

740
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 2: child when they report so later on. And I think

741
00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:14,840
Speaker 2: the average timeframe is twenty nine point four years for

742
00:40:14,920 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 2: someone to report child sexual abuse, and ordinarily the reports

743
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 2: are done contemporaneously are the ones that ordinarily have the

744
00:40:22,560 --> 00:40:25,839
Speaker 2: strongest conviction, because if someone reports being sexually abused that day,

745
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 2: they can go to a hospital, they can have a

746
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 2: rape fit done, they can have DNA done. But it's

747
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 2: the hard thing is it's a lot of works, especially

748
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,279
Speaker 2: if they're starting a new center of the here on

749
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,360
Speaker 2: a certain visa. They don't want to speak out about

750
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 2: someone who's in a position to power over them. If

751
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 2: they see something inappropriate, they're worried about it, but there's

752
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,280
Speaker 2: laws against that under children protection that you can't actually

753
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 2: be victimized for a legitimate complaint, and it's not about

754
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,440
Speaker 2: going to the head of your work. There are hotlines

755
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: set up where people can call and make anonymous tips

756
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 2: and say I'm concerned, I saw this, what do I do?

757
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 2: And they will then deem it as a credible But

758
00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 2: like you touched on before, just having investigators rock up

759
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 2: and take someone's phone. That in itself, if you're a

760
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 2: thinking of offending you see that's happened to someone else,

761
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,759
Speaker 2: that act alone will scare the life out of you

762
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:17,280
Speaker 2: and make sure that you don't want to offend.

763
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: A deterrent Because I understand how hard it is to

764
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: prove some of these offenses and get the conviction, But

765
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 1: if there's a frequency or a person who's been rapported

766
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: or allegations have been made against them by independent parties

767
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: time and time again, surely that has to mark them

768
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 1: that there's a red flag there that they shouldn't have access.

769
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 2: With Ashley Griffith, he had allegations of numerous childcare centers

770
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:44,399
Speaker 2: in the past before he finally got got done. And

771
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,440
Speaker 2: you think there's an old saying, it's once there's a chance,

772
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 2: twice as a coincident, third times a pattern where someone

773
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:56,000
Speaker 2: has gone to different centers and there's been concerns raised

774
00:41:56,000 --> 00:42:01,080
Speaker 2: by not only workers but parents and individuals still to

775
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 2: continue with work. That to me is warning signs and

776
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 2: that in itself is the childcare center's complicity in the event.

777
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 2: And the thing with these offenders is they're actually using

778
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 2: the images as currency. And you think we discussed it

779
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:17,520
Speaker 2: on the last time on your show that a bike

780
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 2: is arrested the first thing that happened. There's a news

781
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 2: crew there where they're uploading their g wagons onto a

782
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 2: pickup truck. But if you've got a person that works

783
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,759
Speaker 2: casually in a childcare center, that drives a BMW that

784
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,319
Speaker 2: affords six overseas trips a year, questions should be raised

785
00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 2: right away. Where is this money coming.

786
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 1: To proceeds from crime? The crime being the abuse of children?

787
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: And yeah, Andrew, the impact that has on the family

788
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 1: of kids like this in the nature of the work

789
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: that you do that it's a very dark area, like

790
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: supporting these people, what sort of impact does it have

791
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 1: on the not just a victim, but the family.

792
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,439
Speaker 2: It's the parents usually riddle by guilt. They're saying, you know, well,

793
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 2: you know I had to go back to work, like

794
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 2: I couldn't do this. But it's it's I've seen it

795
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 2: teir marriages apart. I see people don't want other children

796
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 2: because of it. They I've seen people that they The

797
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 2: main thing I've seen is that people will quit their jobs,

798
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 2: live in poverty to make sure they homeschool their children

799
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 2: because they're so terrified of it happening again. And the

800
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 2: hard thing is it's like any any place every say

801
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,359
Speaker 2: please you hear you know one police officer every other

802
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,880
Speaker 2: month that's been arrested doing something, but one dodgy police

803
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 2: officer makes entire look bad. And these are very, very

804
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: very rare in childcase centers because child care centers have

805
00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 2: a lot of people around and it's too risky for

806
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 2: offenders to act here. So it's it's risky for that,

807
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 2: but the parents will still think what if My biggest

808
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:48,480
Speaker 2: concern is for all the people that are in Queensland

809
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 2: or the allegations in Victoria, that the dread of not

810
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 2: even waiting for any STI checks to the parents is

811
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 2: just thinking, hey, on our six month old was a

812
00:43:57,640 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: childcare center with mister Griffin or with the individuals charged

813
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 2: or allegations within Victoria, and just their mind raising, was

814
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 2: our child a victims survived, this happened to them and

815
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 2: just the paranoia around that. It's the guilt that parents

816
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 2: feel because they feel responsible for leaving their child at

817
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 2: a center with a person that they should be entrusted with.

818
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 2: The parents guilt is it just tears them apart. But

819
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:23,520
Speaker 2: it's not the parents fault. I mean it's in this

820
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 2: day and age, it's not a matter where people can

821
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 2: live with you know, one parent working. Most people need

822
00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 2: to live to be how to put food on the table,

823
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 2: need to work to put food on the table. So

824
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:36,960
Speaker 2: the guilt is there, but it's it's a guilt that

825
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 2: although they feel it, it's not their fault what happened

826
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:42,439
Speaker 2: to them. And that's exactly like all victims survivors. It's

827
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 2: never a victim survivor's fault something happened to them. There's

828
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 2: only one person that has a choice where anyone's engaged

829
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,279
Speaker 2: in underage child abuse, and it's it's the choice of

830
00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:51,760
Speaker 2: the adult.

831
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 1: Do you do you think the courts starting to come

832
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: to terms with the magnitude of the crime and impacted

833
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 1: the crime.

834
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 2: I don't think it's the courts. I think it's the

835
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 2: government that's The government's not implementing strict descendancing. I mean

836
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:10,120
Speaker 2: you've got look at for instance, you never see someone

837
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:14,240
Speaker 2: arrested with one image. It's always hundreds of images or thousands,

838
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 2: and there should at least be a staggered tier to that.

839
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 2: But the I don't think the laws caught up with

840
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 2: technology yet and trying to see how many images people

841
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,839
Speaker 2: have or how quickly this thing to be disseminated. I

842
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 2: think the issue here is that there should be one

843
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,280
Speaker 2: most important thing. There should be strict penalties on grooming,

844
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 2: for instance, if you that's really cutting off the head

845
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 2: of the state. But until you start seeing people get

846
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,800
Speaker 2: adequate sentences. I sat in court last week two clients

847
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 2: of mine. They are a male and female. They'll persistently

848
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 2: sexually abused the worst time of their father. And I

849
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 2: always fell off my chair when you only got nine

850
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:57,600
Speaker 2: years for over a decade of abuse. He got nine years.

851
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 2: I had one girl that she was abused from two

852
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,319
Speaker 2: and a half sixteen, almost a daily basis. You've got

853
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 2: eight years in prison. And this is the governments aren't

854
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 2: putting all their effort into this, dissuading it, and they

855
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,680
Speaker 2: know these numbers. It's no longer a knowledge problem, it's

856
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 2: an accountability problem. The fact that politicians aren't jumping up

857
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:16,839
Speaker 2: and down like look at. There was a High Court

858
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 2: case last year called Burden DP which the High Court

859
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 2: basically said that institutions are no longer responsible for the

860
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 2: acts of volunteers and so they can't be sued. But

861
00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 2: the High Court actually said in that case, but if

862
00:46:29,640 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 2: the States legislator around this, they can. Now that was

863
00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 2: December twenty twenty three, that case came out, and now

864
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 2: in July twenty twenty five, there's not been one. So

865
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:43,399
Speaker 2: that was twenty four came and there's not been one

866
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 2: government that's actually said we're going to change that right away.

867
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 2: In fact, what has happening around the Eastern States is

868
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,640
Speaker 2: that anyone that's bought an action against an institution, they're

869
00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 2: now saying not offering your recent high courts against you.

870
00:46:55,360 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 2: And if the highest court in the country is saying

871
00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 2: you don't have a case and the government is not

872
00:46:59,680 --> 00:47:01,759
Speaker 2: legis around that, that is a slap in the face

873
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 2: of it survivors.

874
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the high courts identifying where the problem was,

875
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 1: this is there to be fed.

876
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're leaving this open for the governments. Hint, hint,

877
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 2: close it now so this never happens again. Nothing' When

878
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 2: that first came down, Madeline West came to Adelaide. We

879
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:23,719
Speaker 2: had a meeting with the state State Liberal government and

880
00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 2: they told it to the state labor government right away.

881
00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 2: And it's been seven months now. Nothing not even a WinCE.

882
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 2: And there was even in Victoria about a month ago

883
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 2: there was all these plaintiff law firms that took out

884
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:37,840
Speaker 2: a two page ad in the Herald Son and said

885
00:47:37,880 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 2: this is the damage this case is doing. And still nothing,

886
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 2: and that's people don't want to talk about it. And

887
00:47:44,239 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 2: it's not a vote getter for politicians because they know

888
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 2: everyone hates child offenders and it's not going to change

889
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 2: anyone's perception of them saying they're going to fight against

890
00:47:55,000 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 2: these creatures. But when there's a loophole like the superannuation

891
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 2: that's been open for that long that people are exploiting,

892
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 2: why wouldn't you If a person is a priest and

893
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 2: they sexy abuse a child over a period of time

894
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:10,239
Speaker 2: and their sued, then the church goes sorry, priest was

895
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,800
Speaker 2: not employee, We're not liable.

896
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 1: It's a loophole that doesn't encourage people to prevent it. Look,

897
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: since I've been out of the cops and the work

898
00:48:20,040 --> 00:48:21,919
Speaker 1: that I do and the people I speak to, I've

899
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:23,720
Speaker 1: saw the vapor in my eyes to a few things

900
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: on crime and punishment and that type of thing, and

901
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: probably a little bit more lenient than what I was

902
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 1: when I was in the police in terms of custodial

903
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:36,000
Speaker 1: sentences and how people should be treated. But what I

904
00:48:36,040 --> 00:48:40,279
Speaker 1: see with people that abuse children, sexually abused children is

905
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: that it's not one offense, it's numerous offenses and the

906
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: impact it has on people's lives. I'm sort of swinging

907
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:51,200
Speaker 1: the pendulum a little bit where I say, Okay, well,

908
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:55,320
Speaker 1: maybe jailing is not the right answer, but if people

909
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:58,480
Speaker 1: want to reduce crime, and this is my experience when

910
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:01,600
Speaker 1: I did that podcast series in prison, I was shocked

911
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 1: by how many people in prison were victims of child

912
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,480
Speaker 1: sexual abuse. And so when we talk about reducing crime,

913
00:49:08,560 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 1: and you know, you'll have a state election and people

914
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 1: will bang their chest and go, we going to fight,

915
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 1: get tough on crime, hit the offense that probably generates

916
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: more crime than any other, and that's the abuse of children.

917
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:22,440
Speaker 2: So yeah, and that's why offenders usually plays protective customers,

918
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 2: because most people in prison are abused. And what I

919
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 2: see a lot is when a child starts acting differently.

920
00:49:29,120 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 2: I've got one one very brave young woman that she

921
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 2: came forward. She heard a song on the radio about

922
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 2: twenty years after it happened and disclosed to her parents

923
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:40,200
Speaker 2: and when she disclosed to her parents right away. They've gone.

924
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,120
Speaker 2: When you were that age, you just changed over a week,

925
00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 2: and we had no idea. We always suspected something happened

926
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:47,920
Speaker 2: and it changed. Or when you've got people that you

927
00:49:47,960 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 2: know their love going to their uncle's house and it's

928
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 2: a favorite person in the world and then all of

929
00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:54,879
Speaker 2: a sudden, overnight, I'd never want to go back there again.

930
00:49:55,320 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 2: Or look at Larry Nasara in America, the Olympics gymnastic coach.

931
00:50:00,760 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 2: How many elite female athletes overnight just said no, I

932
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 2: give up the sport because this has happened. And one

933
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,120
Speaker 2: thing that I've always found weird is just the prevalence

934
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,360
Speaker 2: of the understanding of it you look at. I remember

935
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 2: watching the two thousand and one MTV Movie Awards, and

936
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 2: I remember because Chris Rock was one of my he's

937
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:21,880
Speaker 2: one of my favorite comedians. He was what he was

938
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 2: hosting it, and he made a joke in two thousand

939
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 2: and one and he said, r Kelly's here tonight, which

940
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 2: means you have to send the Olsome twins to the

941
00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 2: back of the room. They were making jokes of that.

942
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 2: Twenty four years ago. I think R Kelly was sentenced

943
00:50:34,000 --> 00:50:36,880
Speaker 2: maybe three or four years ago. But again this was

944
00:50:36,960 --> 00:50:39,360
Speaker 2: Hollywood saying, hey, yeah, this is funny. We know this

945
00:50:39,440 --> 00:50:42,480
Speaker 2: guy's are creep, but nothing came out of it. Michael Jackson,

946
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 2: for and look at even Elvis Presley. Elvis Presley met

947
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 2: his wife when he was in his twenties and she

948
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: was fourteen. Yeah, it doesn't like it's and people they

949
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 2: seem to go, you know this guy's yeah, is a

950
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 2: great guy, he's done this, but people tend to look

951
00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 2: away from that. And it's it's something where in this

952
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 2: day and age, people are starting to look back and think, well,

953
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,080
Speaker 2: hang on, that's not right. But you know what about

954
00:51:06,360 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 2: what happened to these children when these offenders were still

955
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,879
Speaker 2: at large. There's nothing that's happening to them. And until

956
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 2: that the government stamps down and says, look, you know,

957
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 2: we want to make sure that this change. I imagine

958
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,480
Speaker 2: if one in three women was and one in five

959
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 2: boys were, say, dealing meth or engaging in road rage

960
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 2: things like that, how quickly would it change. But the

961
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 2: fact that we're not doing anything to eliminate these risks.

962
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,080
Speaker 2: Even if we got it to one in four girls,

963
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:36,960
Speaker 2: that's still millions. And I think we Australia's twenty five

964
00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 2: million people, so split it in half, which is about

965
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 2: twelve and a half one in three girls out of

966
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 2: that twelve and a half million, so fifty four million

967
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:48,520
Speaker 2: Australians have been sexuy abused at a female and then

968
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 2: with the boys that'd be about two and a half million.

969
00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 2: That's a shocking stat that and then out of that

970
00:51:55,400 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 2: the conviction rate is point zero three percent. If you

971
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 2: I spoke last election, I spoke with Grace Tame at

972
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,840
Speaker 2: an event in Melbourne and people weren't getting the stats

973
00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,000
Speaker 2: of it. And I've always said the most trusted news

974
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 2: source for me in Australia is sports Bet. They hit

975
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:14,400
Speaker 2: them out ahead of.

976
00:52:14,400 --> 00:52:18,439
Speaker 1: Everything, break break that dam as in the stats with sports.

977
00:52:18,080 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 2: Big yeah yeah, and so with like sports Bet pick

978
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:24,440
Speaker 2: every election. And I said, right, well, I think it

979
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 2: was a Melbourne playing North Melbourne or an AFL game.

980
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 2: And I said North Melbourne are paying like ten to

981
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 2: one odds who have put their money on them, and

982
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:34,480
Speaker 2: everyone's like they're gonna lose, is it right? The closest

983
00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 2: stat to ninety nine point nine nine seven percent last

984
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:41,359
Speaker 2: year was Pauline Hanson and Bob Catter becoming the next

985
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:45,000
Speaker 2: Prime Minister of Australia. Now, if you think how remote

986
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,960
Speaker 2: that was from happening. And people said, that's ridiculous, that

987
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,080
Speaker 2: will never happen, And I said, that's the percentages. Oh,

988
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 2: that's the likelihood of someone getting away with child sexual abuse.

989
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:58,799
Speaker 2: And people went, oh, I think Kanye West was paying

990
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 2: two hundred and one dollars to one of becoming American

991
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,480
Speaker 2: president one stage, And people think, oh, yeah, this is

992
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 2: a laugh. But it's like, this is how remote these

993
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 2: starts are. Like if you're a if you're a gambling man,

994
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 2: if you're going to commit a crime, that you've got

995
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 2: a ninety nine point nine nine seven percent chance of

996
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 2: getting off roll the dice. Yeah, it's it's insane. And

997
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 2: when people start hearing numbers, they don't believe it. When

998
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 2: you start giving real life examples, that's when people go, oh, yeah, yeah,

999
00:53:27,120 --> 00:53:27,920
Speaker 2: that's bad.

1000
00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 1: Well we said that when we first started talking about

1001
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:35,080
Speaker 1: this issue, not just on this podcast, but over the years.

1002
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,960
Speaker 1: Really you've got to bash people over the head with

1003
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:42,080
Speaker 1: the statistics and the nature of the crime to bring

1004
00:53:42,160 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: people out. So look, you've given us, again, very informed

1005
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:50,400
Speaker 1: insight into what gets reported in the media and breaking

1006
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 1: it down. I just want to say to you, Andrew,

1007
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: stay angry, keep up the good work. And I know, yeah,

1008
00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 1: when there is a there is a lighter side to you.

1009
00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: I know when people have seen you on the podcast

1010
00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: Jesus that blokes wound up. But it's a very important

1011
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:10,560
Speaker 1: thing that you're wound wound up on and the work

1012
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 1: that you do I think is very very important. And

1013
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 1: keep keep fighting.

1014
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:17,279
Speaker 2: Thank you. Can you tell my wife that I make

1015
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 2: a lot of sense more often because you say that

1016
00:54:19,120 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 2: more than she does.

1017
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 1: I don't know if we can step that far, and

1018
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: I can only sympathize with her, yes, But I know

1019
00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:33,439
Speaker 1: you're enjoying yourself with your family at the moment, and yeah,

1020
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:36,239
Speaker 1: get that balance because you're in the dark world the

1021
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 1: area that you're fighting, So get some balance on the

1022
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 1: on the other side.

1023
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 2: So and thank you for you and the team for

1024
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:43,879
Speaker 2: always wanting to highlight these issues. I mean, you're you're

1025
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 2: using your your platform to always highlight victims' rights, and

1026
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:51,719
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm quite passionate about it, even though it's

1027
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:53,400
Speaker 2: ever happened to me. I just see how bad it is.

1028
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 2: But always having you your support of always wanting to

1029
00:54:57,520 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 2: fight fight the good fight and actually highlight how often

1030
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:02,680
Speaker 2: these things happen and trying to get on the front

1031
00:55:02,719 --> 00:55:05,360
Speaker 2: foot and using your platform for that is amazing. So

1032
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 2: thank you for all the work you do and and

1033
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 2: for always having having a message back and forward and

1034
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,160
Speaker 2: and you know, fighting the good fight. Cheers. Thank you, Gary,