Speaker 1: I get a team. It's Halps and Bobby. It's a
Speaker 1: You project. It's installment one for the great Man. He's back,
Speaker 1: the man that we love, who's been an integral part
Speaker 1: of the You project for years, let's be honest, years.
Speaker 1: He's probably done somewhere in the vicinity of I would
Speaker 1: think fuf fifty two one hundred shows. You know him,
Speaker 1: you love him, I love him. He's my weird little
Speaker 1: brother from another mother. His name's Robert Capuccio.
Speaker 2: Hi, bro, I am so happy to be back here
Speaker 2: with you and all of you. I've missed this. I've
Speaker 2: missed all of us. Actually, it's technic a little bit
Speaker 2: of break.
Speaker 1: I thinking the other day, how some of my friends
Speaker 1: like my good friends, and that's you. I really well,
Speaker 1: it's kind of situational and geographical. It's not through choice,
Speaker 1: but we do most of our connecting while we're talking
Speaker 1: to like ten thousand people.
Speaker 2: It's just not having to catch up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's you and me catching up with ten thousand people,
Speaker 1: just sitting off to our left, just listening, or however
Speaker 1: many we have. It varies, but yeah, it is a
Speaker 1: weird kind of relationship in that sense.
Speaker 2: I like the voyeurism.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well there's that. Let's hope that we have conversations
Speaker 1: that are actually worth listening to this year. I think
Speaker 1: we for the most part did last year. So we're
Speaker 1: recording this. It's my second podcast for the day, folks.
Speaker 1: So if you go you said that the other day,
Speaker 1: well that's because it's the same day for me. Right now.
Speaker 1: I interviewed Professor Chris Evans this morning. If you haven't
Speaker 1: heard that, listen up, because he's fucking great. But it's
Speaker 1: the seventh. It's Wednesday, seventh of January, of course, twenty
Speaker 1: twenty six. And I just told young Robert that right
Speaker 1: now in now fine city by the Bay down here
Speaker 1: in Melbourne. It's in the old fashioned language, the fahrenheit language.
Speaker 1: It's about one hundred and eleven degrees. Well that's the
Speaker 1: four forty four degrees celsius, and I had to look
Speaker 1: it up. I think they used to say something like
Speaker 1: double it and AD thirty. Double the celsius and AD thirty,
Speaker 1: and that would give you a ballpark number. But let's
Speaker 1: just go with stupidly hot. Stupidly hot.
Speaker 2: I don't even know how those form bullas work. I
Speaker 2: just for the most part just do it in my head.
Speaker 2: It's almost like operating on two different systems. It's weird,
Speaker 2: but they both make sense to me anyway.
Speaker 1: You've lived in countries with both, so you're kind of
Speaker 1: very temperature fluent. I would say, so when I tell
Speaker 1: you forty four, you don't have to think is that
Speaker 1: hot or not? You know that's hot as fuck. So
Speaker 1: and Professor Chris, who I chatted to this morning, he
Speaker 1: said it was where he lives minus one, but not
Speaker 1: far away from him was minus twelve. I'm like, how
Speaker 1: does it is imagine that I would not cope in
Speaker 1: minus twelve?
Speaker 2: Now, just given the choice minus twelve forty four? Ah,
Speaker 2: that is, what would you rather be in?
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good question. Probably forty four, because like
Speaker 1: this morning, I got up at four point thirty because
Speaker 1: I knew it was going to be stupid hot, and
Speaker 1: I started working at four forty five, So when I
Speaker 1: started walking it was twenty degrees. By the time I
Speaker 1: got to Caffeine Central, it was probably a balmi twenty
Speaker 1: three degrees at six hundred. But I kind of look
Speaker 1: back now and I've done most of my steps for
Speaker 1: the day I've been out. I'm lucky that I'm lucky
Speaker 1: that I live on a main street. Let's put an
Speaker 1: asterisk next to that. But what it means is I
Speaker 1: can walk out the front door and I can walk
Speaker 1: in shade for like two kilometers like because I can
Speaker 1: walk down past the shops and the bustling humanity and
Speaker 1: have shade over my head the whole time, which is
Speaker 1: a nice thing to do. It's not It's not my
Speaker 1: idea walking route, to be honest. But for the bloke
Speaker 1: who's had probably fifteen to twenty skin cancers cut off
Speaker 1: his body, walking in the forty four degree brutal sun
Speaker 1: is probably not a great formula for me. You never
Speaker 1: had skin you have had skin cancer, not that I
Speaker 1: know of. No, I could have it now and be undiagnosed.
Speaker 1: I should probably go. Would you go? But chicked?
Speaker 2: I need to the doctor a little bit more than
Speaker 2: I do. But yeah, to my knowledge, and I've never
Speaker 2: had I've never had skin cancer. I'm I'm the opposite
Speaker 2: where I mean, I contradict myself because I've lived in
Speaker 2: heart environments. I would take cold. I would take freezing
Speaker 2: cold or scortch and heart any day. I just fare
Speaker 2: better and cold weather than I do in the heat.
Speaker 2: Although here's the thing. If I had to commit to it,
Speaker 2: if it's like, all right, you've got a year, I
Speaker 2: would probably take the heat because I know in Singapore
Speaker 2: when I first was living there, Oh my days, I
Speaker 2: was miserable. I was like, I think I'm gonna pass out.
Speaker 2: I felt like every minute of every day was a
Speaker 2: struggle when I was outside, because I mean, we didn't
Speaker 2: get to forty four degrees, but you would, you would
Speaker 2: be in the upper thirties. Like the thirties were pretty standard.
Speaker 2: Every day was exactly the same, and it was just
Speaker 2: so uncomfortably youmid and then after about six months, I
Speaker 2: didn't care. I was unaffected by it. I just went
Speaker 2: out and said, oh, it's just a normal day. So
Speaker 2: I think if I could have enough enough of a
Speaker 2: chance to acolam, I think I would take the heat.
Speaker 2: But other than that, I'm a cold weather person.
Speaker 1: Well I mean, look, you did we weren't basing that
Speaker 1: on forty four or minus twelve. If it would say
Speaker 1: two degrees. I'm choosing two degrees all the time, cause
Speaker 1: you can rug up, you can go for a walk,
Speaker 1: you can walk in the cold and still be relatively warm,
Speaker 1: and you can come back into your home and walk
Speaker 1: around in bare feet in a seventeen or eighteen degree room,
Speaker 1: you know, thermistatically controlled environment. So this is probably gripping
Speaker 1: for our listeners. Hey, what did you do?
Speaker 2: We're literally talking about the weather first podcast in the
Speaker 2: new Year. It's like talking so how's the weather out there? Grag.
Speaker 2: It's like two old books.
Speaker 1: Oh god, yeah, what did you What did you do ever?
Speaker 1: Christmas in the summer? Do you celebrate or are you
Speaker 1: low key?
Speaker 2: Christmas Eve was fantastic where I got to see some
Speaker 2: really good friends I have not seen in a long time,
Speaker 2: and you know, I got to go over there and celebrate.
Speaker 2: And it's amazing because I was sitting down talking to
Speaker 2: my guard son and it's so weird because I remember
Speaker 2: holding him when he was a baby and he's a
Speaker 2: young man in his twenties, like tall, strappingly handsome, extremely intelligent,
Speaker 2: And it was such a great experience for me. One,
Speaker 2: I felt really old, that was kind of obnoxious of them.
Speaker 2: But two to see like a type of individual this
Speaker 2: guy has become and that was great and it just
Speaker 2: felt you know, this is a family that basically adopted
Speaker 2: me in my early twenties and brought me and has
Speaker 2: wanted their own. And while they they have families of
Speaker 2: their own, so they weren't all there, enough of them
Speaker 2: were there, and it just felt it felt so comforting
Speaker 2: and nostalgic. Christmas. I made a mistake of going into
Speaker 2: uh to a neighborhood in Brooklyn. I'm used to like
Speaker 2: Manhattan on Christmas, where everything's open, everyone's like eating Chinese food,
Speaker 2: everyone's at the cinema. There was nothing. It was dead.
Speaker 2: I dragged my wife all the way to this neighborhood.
Speaker 2: It was an absolute ghost town.
Speaker 1: Wow, it's you and I have you. And I have
Speaker 1: a similar story in that I have a godson also,
Speaker 1: who is tall and handsome. Mitchell shout out to Mitchell
Speaker 1: just turned twenty five. He's a lawyer, and he's you
Speaker 1: don't you know those people you don't want to get
Speaker 1: a photo taken with. So he's that person because he's, like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, five six inches taller than me, one
Speaker 1: hundred years younger than me. Like not just that he's
Speaker 1: twenty five, but he could literally be a model, right,
Speaker 1: twenty five stupidly good looking, good human. I took a
Speaker 1: photo of Oh no, he after his graduation I just
Speaker 1: put up a like a proud godfather. I had a
Speaker 1: proud godfather moment and went, hey, you on, this is
Speaker 1: my godson. I don't have any kids, so this is
Speaker 1: as close as it gets to me being a fucking
Speaker 1: bragging dad. I put up this photo of Mitchell. It
Speaker 1: got over two hundred thousand views just because he's fucking stunning.
Speaker 1: I'm like, what about me? Oh yeah, incredible. Oh it's
Speaker 1: it's a value add one hundred percent. Like oh, looks
Speaker 1: don't matter. I'm like, fucking bullshit. Have you seen it?
Speaker 1: It's like he's a handsome boy. And it went nuts.
Speaker 1: And what else was hilarious was and this is something
Speaker 1: that I rang him and I went, have you seen
Speaker 1: the stats on your photo? Like it's not me and him,
Speaker 1: it's him. And he's like yeah, I said, what's the
Speaker 1: thing that stands out to you? So there was over
Speaker 1: a thousand people that saved the photo. I'm like, what
Speaker 1: is that about? Like, why are all these strangers around
Speaker 1: the world saving your photo to their phone?
Speaker 2: I don't find that a bit weird at all. Actually, wow,
Speaker 2: yeah that's something they can't say I ever do. But yeah,
Speaker 2: not saying if you're one of those people that saved
Speaker 2: the photo. You're weird, I mean just a little bit,
Speaker 2: but not much, just just just slightly tipping over on
Speaker 2: the wrong end of the weird scale. But yeah, I
Speaker 2: think our entire world is based on and I don't
Speaker 2: know how much of that is commercialism or vanity or
Speaker 2: maybe it's evolution genetic compatibility, but we are attracted to
Speaker 2: all things and people that are beautiful. I think there
Speaker 2: is something I don't want to say, deeply spiritual. I
Speaker 2: don't want to go there, but there is something deeply
Speaker 2: resonant with things of beauty, like not just not just people.
Speaker 2: I mean not to be like this guy who talks
Speaker 2: about his cats, but even my cats. If there is
Speaker 2: something that is beautiful, like a sculptor or they'll stare
Speaker 2: at it and they'll like tilt their head and it's like, Okay,
Speaker 2: I don't know what they're thinking. I mean, I don't
Speaker 2: know how much of an art critic my cat is.
Speaker 2: Who knows. Maybe he has very complex thoughts. Maybe he's
Speaker 2: like a you know, pretentious little muppet, just sitting there, like,
Speaker 2: you know, like wishing he had a glass of wine
Speaker 2: and he could say something somewhat intelligent about what he's
Speaker 2: looking at, or maybe he just see something icy and
Speaker 2: like me, can't really describe it, but knows that it's compelling.
Speaker 1: From yeah, yeah. The beauty conversation is a slippery slope
Speaker 1: and a tricky door to open in a public forum
Speaker 1: because on the one hand, we want to say it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, which I agree with in terms of you know,
Speaker 1: a person's whether or not how loved a person should be,
Speaker 1: or how valuable they are or they work all of that.
Speaker 1: We get that you're not a better person because you
Speaker 1: happen to have good genetics and you're born pretty or handsome.
Speaker 1: We get that. And so in a world where the
Speaker 1: kind of the messaging is it doesn't matter, the reality
Speaker 1: is away from the messaging, people who are attractive and
Speaker 1: tall men who are tall tend to get rewarded, right,
Speaker 1: and that we might not like that. That might not
Speaker 1: be a message we want to hear, but it's the
Speaker 1: fucking truth. And you have to look at like the
Speaker 1: stats on I think it was who was it was
Speaker 1: somebody recently, it'll come to me, But they were talking
Speaker 1: about on dating apps, like guys that are tall, irrespective
Speaker 1: of all of the other variables get significantly more matches
Speaker 1: so or more interest or more dates or whatever it is.
Speaker 1: I just yeah, I think that it's it's hardwired into
Speaker 1: us that we find some things, whether it's a waterfall,
Speaker 1: or whether or not it's a piece of art, or
Speaker 1: whether or not it's a human, or whether or not
Speaker 1: it's a fucking labrador puppy. Oh my god, get me
Speaker 1: near a Golden Retriever or a Labrador puppy. I'm fucking
Speaker 1: I'm gone. That's it. I'm done. They're the cutest things
Speaker 1: of all time. You put me in front of an
Speaker 1: ard Vark, I'm like, not, fuck your ardvark. Give me
Speaker 1: a golden Redream puppy. Shout out to the Ardvark lovers,
Speaker 1: you know, Like, and I don't want to be It's
Speaker 1: like I wish that wasn't I wish I didn't feel
Speaker 1: that way. But it's like, I'm not choosing to find
Speaker 1: a labrador puppy cute and an ardvark not. That's just
Speaker 1: something innate. That's part of how I'm wired, you know,
Speaker 1: just like some people are attracted to men, some people
Speaker 1: are attracted to women, some people are attracted to both.
Speaker 1: It's it's how they're wired. Some people, fucking you know,
Speaker 1: love motorbikes. Some people are terrified. Like we're all different,
Speaker 1: and we all are either aroused by, or attracted to,
Speaker 1: or enamored with, or fascinated with or curious about different things.
Speaker 1: But it's almost like you're in trouble if you don't
Speaker 1: agree with the narrative about what you should find attractive.
Speaker 2: There's so many things I want to unpack here. First
Speaker 2: of all, you know, there's I'm becoming less and less
Speaker 2: invested in whatever the narrative tells me that I should
Speaker 2: be discussing or not discussing. I know, I had my
Speaker 2: social media apps on my phone when I was away
Speaker 2: on holiday because I knew I didn't want to bring
Speaker 2: my iPad or whatever, and I usually keep everything on
Speaker 2: separate devices as a behavior modification tool. So during the holidays,
Speaker 2: I found myself surfing on social media way more than
Speaker 2: I normally would, And every message seems like every other message.
Speaker 2: I don't want to say every message, because there are
Speaker 2: some really cool and I'll use the word beautiful things
Speaker 2: on social media I found, but every other message is
Speaker 2: look at what these people are doing. Aren't you outraged?
Speaker 2: Look at how they think? And people come out. Well,
Speaker 2: I think this, and it's like it's a forum where
Speaker 2: I don't have to see you. I don't have to
Speaker 2: empathize with you. I don't need to engage in or
Speaker 2: demonstrate critical thinking. All I have to do is put
Speaker 2: something that is emotionally provocative and incite some type of
Speaker 2: angry or fear based response, and that's that whole engagement there.
Speaker 2: I don't really care about that. But you know, talking
Speaker 2: about like things that are beautiful, and I look at
Speaker 2: this a little bit differently because, as we know, we've
Speaker 2: had conversations about this. Growing up, I was not what
Speaker 2: you would consider beautiful. I mean, I'm no prized now,
Speaker 2: let's just be clear for the people who have only
Speaker 2: experienced me on audio, but I was physically deformed. I
Speaker 2: was disfigured in my face. So for me, beauty was
Speaker 2: a very interesting subject. I looked at it like, wow,
Speaker 2: I didn't even want to be beautiful. I just wanted
Speaker 2: to be normal, Like I wanted to be a solid
Speaker 2: five where I didn't evoke a positive or negative response
Speaker 2: in someone and I could pretty much go unnoticed.
Speaker 1: But kind of like kind of like desert boots. Do
Speaker 1: you know what desert boots. Huh.
Speaker 2: We had this conversation, yeah, years ago.
Speaker 1: It's a desert boot is kind of your multi functional.
Speaker 1: It's like it's it's yeah, it's not it's not a
Speaker 1: dress shoe, it's not an athletic shoe. It's like, it's
Speaker 1: not ugly, it's not pretty something we would call it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you just aspired to be a human desert boot,
Speaker 1: just sys functional, just just go unnoticed.
Speaker 2: That was my goal to attract as little attention as
Speaker 2: I possibly could. Then I went ahead and chose public
Speaker 2: speaking as a career, so that didn't work out very
Speaker 2: well for me. But there are beautiful attributes in people
Speaker 2: that transcend appearance, obviously, and I think a lot of
Speaker 2: the ways that we engage with one another, increasingly engaged
Speaker 2: with one another has the potential to either draw those
Speaker 2: out or in a lot of ways, suppress that. And
Speaker 2: what surfaces is something far more ugly. I mean, you
Speaker 2: could be And when people say looks don't matter, I
Speaker 2: used to get really angry about that because the people
Speaker 2: that used to tell me that about dating were, for
Speaker 2: the most part, very good looking people. Wow, looks don't matter.
Speaker 2: That's like you know that, that's like you know someone
Speaker 2: who is a deca millionaire telling a homeless person that
Speaker 2: money won't make it happy. It'll definitely, it'll definitely change
Speaker 2: this person's experience of the world today, won't it. And
Speaker 2: So when I would hear that, I rejected it. But
Speaker 2: as I'm getting older and as I reflect upon people
Speaker 2: who I am very attracted to, not just physically but
Speaker 2: emotionally and psychologically, Yeah, there's so there's so many attributes
Speaker 2: that do have nothing to do with physical appearance that
Speaker 2: make you highly attractive, and I think everybody has those
Speaker 2: quite honestly. The question is is the environment you're in,
Speaker 2: is it bringing it out or is it suppressing it
Speaker 2: in favor of I think which less attractive.
Speaker 1: We're going to make a distinction between, you know, So
Speaker 1: if we're talking about attraction here, let's let's have too care.
Speaker 1: Let's have the physical attraction where the person might be
Speaker 1: complete prick. Right. But yeah, yeah, I mean there's lots
Speaker 1: of people who are fucking stunning, but not particularly nice people, right,
Speaker 1: I'm sure. And there are a lot of beautiful, amazing
Speaker 1: people who are physically and emotionally beautiful, right, But I
Speaker 1: think you know that despite the message, you know it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter what you look like. Well, my experience is
Speaker 1: fat kid, fat kid, fat kid, very few friends, no
Speaker 1: attention from the opposite sex, nobody interested in me, Da,
Speaker 1: da da, all of that. And there's no self pity
Speaker 1: in this, by the way, anyone, So don't mistake the
Speaker 1: story of self pity. There's none. There's just awareness. And
Speaker 1: then I get fit, and then I get strong, and
Speaker 1: I lose all this weight, and I start training, and
Speaker 1: for my genetic potential, I get in good shape. I'm
Speaker 1: now strong, I'm now fit, I'm now lean. I'm not
Speaker 1: a great athlete, but I'm not the worst athlete. I'm
Speaker 1: not winning, but I'm going okay. All of a sudden,
Speaker 1: I'm not socially invisible. All of a sudden, I'm not
Speaker 1: number thirty on the list of thirty. I'm maybe in
Speaker 1: the top fifteen now, all of a sudden. And so
Speaker 1: my lesson was, oh, Craig, when you look different, when
Speaker 1: you look better, people like you more, Craig. When you
Speaker 1: lose weight, when you're lean, when you're less ugly, when
Speaker 1: you're less whatever, this is my story to me, Then
Speaker 1: you're more desirable. People want you more, people are attracted
Speaker 1: to you more. Girls actually notice you, girls even want
Speaker 1: to talk to you. Fucking hell, this is a revolution, right,
Speaker 1: And so it's very hard when you go through an
Speaker 1: experience like you did and I did, where you got
Speaker 1: rejected for how you look. And I'm not trying to
Speaker 1: compare my story to yours, because you had it infinitely
Speaker 1: harder than I did. But it's yeah, you grow up
Speaker 1: and you go, oh, well, the evidence tells me that
Speaker 1: when I look better, I'm treated better. That's my n
Speaker 1: equals one. Research is like, the data tells me that
Speaker 1: when I'm out of shape and what people would typically label,
Speaker 1: you know, or you know back then anyway a fat kid,
Speaker 1: you know, then in a certain response and then in
Speaker 1: shape different. So it's it's well and good, but that
Speaker 1: the you know, we kind of our beliefs are intertwined
Speaker 1: really with our experiences more so than what some you know,
Speaker 1: mouthpiece over the airways tells us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really hard. It's really hard to be open
Speaker 2: to a worldview when all of your experiences have presented
Speaker 2: evidence to the contrary. And it's not just data, it's
Speaker 2: experiences that have severe emotional wheat. I think you know,
Speaker 2: the fact of being wanted and being accepted versus being rejected.
Speaker 2: I think that shapes all of us in highly profound ways. Yet,
Speaker 2: you know, to your point about I've encountered people that
Speaker 2: are just so physically stunning, but their personalities are just
Speaker 2: not And I've been about as sexually attracted to them
Speaker 2: as I am a red eminem you know, totally neutral.
Speaker 2: I mean, everybody knows blue eminem's are dead sexy, they
Speaker 2: are so hot, they're just plain So yeah, and the
Speaker 2: opposite as well, people who I might not have noticed
Speaker 2: originally but they were so kind, or they were absolutely witty,
Speaker 2: or there was something that I found gorgeous about this person,
Speaker 2: and over time I became extremely attracted to them. So yeah,
Speaker 2: there's there's I think the point that I'm trying to
Speaker 2: make is around what is your antidote? I've talked about that,
Speaker 2: I've talked about that film.
Speaker 1: What do you mean today to what?
Speaker 2: Well I've talked about midnight in Paris on the show.
Speaker 1: Before You're banned from talking about films or producers or
Speaker 1: books today?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Okay, so go on, I'll give you. I'll give
Speaker 1: you one one joker card if you go.
Speaker 2: So one morning I was I woke up, I was
Speaker 2: in Denver, right, you remember our Denver offices, and my
Speaker 2: friend Morgan, she was like, hey, you want to go
Speaker 2: see a film. It's at this Mayan cinema and it's
Speaker 2: this art deco cinema. It hasn't been it hasn't been
Speaker 2: changed since the nineteen twenties other than like renovated, but
Speaker 2: it still has the same look and it's like talk
Speaker 2: about things of beauty, So like, yeah, let's go see
Speaker 2: a film. When we went to go see Midnight in Paris,
Speaker 2: and there's just there's this one scene. And I've talked
Speaker 2: about it a lot because what I love about cinema
Speaker 2: is at its best, any form of art is provocative.
Speaker 2: It changes the way the way you think, the way
Speaker 2: you feel. At its deepest level, it changes something out you.
Speaker 2: And there was this one line where Owen Wilson, who's
Speaker 2: playing this role of a guy that was a screenwriter
Speaker 2: who went back in time, so it's this whole magical thing.
Speaker 2: He's sitting across from Gertrude Stein and she reads his man,
Speaker 2: she reads his novel, and she tells him what a
Speaker 2: beautiful voice he has, but then she chastises him, says, God,
Speaker 2: but you're such a defeatist, and he's arguing with her
Speaker 2: about the nature of reality. I mean, she hasn't seen
Speaker 2: the horrors of the late twentieth and twenty first century. Now,
Speaker 2: she hasn't seen the rise of the Nazi regime, so
Speaker 2: on and so forth. But the thing she doesn't argue
Speaker 2: with him. She agrees. But then she says something, not
Speaker 2: gertrue Stein, but herself, but obviously Kathleen Bates. And it
Speaker 2: was this beautiful line where she said, yeah, but you're
Speaker 2: an artist, and it's not the job of the artist
Speaker 2: to succumb to despair. The job of the artist is
Speaker 2: to find an antidote for the emptiness of existence. And
Speaker 2: I think that we, and I do mean we me
Speaker 2: are in an environment where more and more people are
Speaker 2: succumbing to something, whether it is emptiness or despair, or
Speaker 2: whether it's anger or fear. And I think there's got
Speaker 2: to be an antidote that is so important to you,
Speaker 2: not that it erases the context of reality, but makes
Speaker 2: it tolerable and allows you to flourish and engage and
Speaker 2: be a human being and contribute and form bonds in
Speaker 2: spite of it, or maybe even because of it, because
Speaker 2: the stakes are so high. So that's kind of where
Speaker 2: my mind is going, like what are the things that
Speaker 2: make people beautiful to other people? It's definitely not the
Speaker 2: shit we say about one another and to one another
Speaker 2: on so social media. That's definitely not it. And you know,
Speaker 2: I think sometimes somebody will say something that is just
Speaker 2: so abhorrent and my first response is, how are you
Speaker 2: a freaking person? Like are you raising kids? Are you
Speaker 2: teaching them this stuff? Like when you tuck them in,
Speaker 2: do you tell them to find people who are vulnerable
Speaker 2: and suffering and injure them for the sheer thrill of it?
Speaker 2: Like wow? Like like do you show up at work
Speaker 2: pretending to be a normal person but you're this? And
Speaker 2: then I'm like, wait, what is it like to be them?
Speaker 2: And maybe it's that state in that experience And I'm
Speaker 2: not excusing any of it, but maybe that experience of
Speaker 2: being them produces that type of response.
Speaker 1: And it's just it's a slippery slope that it's an
Speaker 1: overused term today, Craig, not your self, but that I'm
Speaker 1: with you, like what you see people's behavior, you know
Speaker 1: so much at the moment with the online echo chambers,
Speaker 1: and You're right, someone will come out and say something
Speaker 1: that's one hundred percent going to be one way or
Speaker 1: the other polarizing. And so you're gonna have two groups.
Speaker 1: You're going to go the yeah, Bobby, you're exactly right,
Speaker 1: fuck them, and then you're gonna have the no, fuck
Speaker 1: you Bobby group, right, And it's essentially that, And it
Speaker 1: doesn't matter what you say. You're like pro A and
Speaker 1: I'm pro B. Well, it doesn't matter how well you
Speaker 1: say A or sell A. I'm never going to jump
Speaker 1: off the B train onto the A train because I'm
Speaker 1: not open minded. I don't hear what you think. I
Speaker 1: just I'm here to just critique you and argue with
Speaker 1: you and all of those things. But I this to
Speaker 1: me is like a It's almost like this unconscious, unhealthy,
Speaker 1: ongoing form of self sabotage and wasted potential where we
Speaker 1: are spending countless hours and countless energy on bullshit that
Speaker 1: doesn't move the needle in a good way for either side,
Speaker 1: Like there's nothing I understand it. I understand that you're upset,
Speaker 1: I understand they're upset. I understand you disagree with them.
Speaker 1: But by the way, it doesn't matter what you say.
Speaker 1: No one's going to go fucking hell, Bobby, that's a
Speaker 1: good point. All these years I've been wrong. I've just
Speaker 1: had a revelation. I owe it all to you. I've
Speaker 1: just you are the light in the darkness. Bobby. How
Speaker 1: my god, I wish I met you five years ago.
Speaker 1: You've just renovated my mind. You've just that's not happening
Speaker 1: fucking ever. So we you know, we constantly pay attention
Speaker 1: to shit that is toxic and destructive and unhelpful, while
Speaker 1: simultaneously not using our energy and attention and cognitive horsepower
Speaker 1: to do things which could move the needle. You know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. It's like, oh no, it's much easier
Speaker 1: for me to winge and bitch and point the finger
Speaker 1: and complain and point out the fucking flaws in everyone
Speaker 1: else then for me to go to the mirror and go,
Speaker 1: all right, Craig, what the fuck are you doing? What
Speaker 1: are you doing about your bullshit? What do you need
Speaker 1: to own up to? Craig? And you know, I've been
Speaker 1: working on me forever, and my list of bullshit I
Speaker 1: need to work on is no shorter because new things
Speaker 1: come up all the time. I was going to ask you,
Speaker 1: do you think that we are born like it seems
Speaker 1: to me like three four two three four five year olds.
Speaker 1: Not that you and I would know because we're not
Speaker 1: dad's but we've been around enough kids, I guess, and
Speaker 1: parents and families. Do you think that kids are inherently confidence?
Speaker 1: I know there's a few variables around that context, family influence,
Speaker 1: and then they be come less confident. I feel like
Speaker 1: when I was a little kid, I was very confident.
Speaker 1: Then I lost confidence when I started to realize that
Speaker 1: how I looked was not great. And then I spent
Speaker 1: much of my life at that point in time trying
Speaker 1: to get approval from recognition, acceptance, love from people I
Speaker 1: didn't even fucking know. I cared so much about what
Speaker 1: people thought. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2: That's an interesting question. I don't think that kids are
Speaker 2: more confident in the way that I would define confidence,
Speaker 2: But I think they are much less self conscious, right
Speaker 2: because in part they're more present and they don't have
Speaker 2: that internal dialogue or internal editor critic turned up at
Speaker 2: a very high volume until they go out in the
Speaker 2: world and somebody points something out to them, like I know.
Speaker 2: I think I remember clearly the exact day that I
Speaker 2: figured out I was different and it was the first
Speaker 2: day of school when I was five, right, because all
Speaker 2: the kids were asking me why I looked the way
Speaker 2: I did, but nobody was asking anybody else that question.
Speaker 2: So I thought, oh, I look different. I don't think
Speaker 2: that ever. I mean, I don't have that much vivid
Speaker 2: memories of my childhood before that, but I don't think
Speaker 2: I ever thought I was different. It didn't occur to me.
Speaker 2: So I wouldn't have had my interactions with people as
Speaker 2: a young child shaped by that knowledge because I just
Speaker 2: don't believe I possessed it. And then my first day
Speaker 2: of school, it's like, oh, okay, And then that was
Speaker 2: my experience every single day from that point forward.
Speaker 1: So new people who aren't familiar with you just explain
Speaker 1: what what they would have seen. I don't know. I'm
Speaker 1: sure you're okay to talk about this because you've spoken
Speaker 1: about it, but like there'll be people who today are
Speaker 1: listening to you for the first time. What what would
Speaker 1: they have seen?
Speaker 2: Those kids, I mean, they would have seen just my lip,
Speaker 2: my nose. The shape of my teeth was just different.
Speaker 2: They were just slanted so so like one end of
Speaker 2: my lip was much higher than the other. My nose
Speaker 2: was kind of kind of turned sideways a bit, with
Speaker 2: my nostrils almost stacked one above the other. My teeth
Speaker 2: were different, the shape of my palate was it wasn't
Speaker 2: It wasn't a cleft palate. It was something else. But
Speaker 2: it could be analogous to that, you could say, so
Speaker 2: that that's what they would have seen. And yeah, I
Speaker 2: found a couple of pits, or my wife somehow found
Speaker 2: a couple of pictures of me when I was a
Speaker 2: little kid, and yeah, it's not like terrifying, but I
Speaker 2: was different enough that kids, especially brought it up, and
Speaker 2: some adults as well, which was kind of interesting. I
Speaker 2: don't think I can't imagine myself commenting to a little
Speaker 2: kid on their physical appearance. But you know, it's just
Speaker 2: the way it happened, So it does It does shape you.
Speaker 1: Did you think day one of school, when all of
Speaker 1: a sudden you were being in undated with questions about
Speaker 1: your appearance? Were you curious about that? Was it like
Speaker 1: were these innocent questions from kids or were these loaded
Speaker 1: questions or was it a bit of everything? Like? Did
Speaker 1: you both from that? That? Fucking hell? Am I hideous?
Speaker 2: What is you know?
Speaker 1: What? Did you have both right.
Speaker 2: So some of it had, you know, malicious intent, Why
Speaker 2: do you look like that? Why are you so others
Speaker 2: were honest questions like why does your face look different
Speaker 2: than just about every other human being, probably every human
Speaker 2: life up until this point It's like, oh, okay, well,
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm five. I didn't even realize this
Speaker 2: point there was an issue. But the point is not
Speaker 2: about my deformed face growing up. The point is that
Speaker 2: things are introduced to us that begin to shape us
Speaker 2: once we're aware of them, whether it you know, whether
Speaker 2: it would have been oh my god, why do you
Speaker 2: why is your voice so hideous? Shut up and stop singing,
Speaker 2: or you know, your paintings don't look as good as
Speaker 2: somebody else, or any of that kind of stuff. And
Speaker 2: by the way, I think we need a degree of that,
Speaker 2: you know, even at a young age and definitely on
Speaker 2: our adult life. But there needs to be kind of
Speaker 2: an equal balance of support and challenge to kind of
Speaker 2: keep us growing and being confident and self aware and
Speaker 2: humble enough to kind of continually reflect and evaluate ourselves
Speaker 2: and move forward. But I think sometimes they're especially things
Speaker 2: that are threatening to our sense of identity or hurt us. Yes,
Speaker 2: coming from people we love or people that we look
Speaker 2: to for some form of safety. Those hold a lot
Speaker 2: more weight. So I think mom and dad praising your
Speaker 2: picture like that you wrote and they put it on
Speaker 2: the fridge may not inspire you to be an artist.
Speaker 2: But if dad goes, oh, man, god, this is this
Speaker 2: is you know, if you could do anything else with
Speaker 2: your life. I know you're only six, but if you
Speaker 2: could do anything else, art might not be your thing
Speaker 2: that can shape you to a much greater degree.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's kind of sad and funny. Why do
Speaker 1: you think even you know, people who are smart must
Speaker 1: have had Listen is a pretty pretty intelligent, pretty educated
Speaker 1: one way or the other, and definitely fascinated with psychology
Speaker 1: and human behavior and understanding the self. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, I do it less than I ever have
Speaker 1: in my life, but I still do it. We all
Speaker 1: know that we don't need people's approval, but nonetheless we
Speaker 1: want it. What do you think that is about? And
Speaker 1: even perhaps more importantly, why do we periodically look from
Speaker 1: for approval from people who don't even fucking like us
Speaker 1: or know us? Is that just what is that? Is
Speaker 1: that a childhood thing? Is that just ingrained? In security.
Speaker 2: I think it's all of the above. I don't know
Speaker 2: if it's that we don't need people's approval as much
Speaker 2: as we're defined by it, we're deeply affected by it.
Speaker 2: And yes, I do believe that to a degree, we
Speaker 2: need people's approval. And when I hear somebody say I don't,
Speaker 2: I don't give two fox what anybody thinks of me,
Speaker 2: it's like you're you're either delusional and you're part of
Speaker 2: the problem, or you're scared and you're very hurt. Someone
Speaker 2: hurt you, something happened to you. Because human beings need
Speaker 2: each other. Because if we didn't need each other, none
Speaker 2: of us would be here. We would have died out
Speaker 2: a very long time ago. We are the slowest and
Speaker 2: weakest animal on the African savannah, no fangs, no clause.
Speaker 2: All we had are these opposable thumbs. Language and collaboration
Speaker 2: is what made that whole thing work. The story of
Speaker 2: humanity is the story of social cohesion and collaboration. So
Speaker 2: I think we need it. The question is are we
Speaker 2: defined by it? Can I take your opinion of me,
Speaker 2: evaluate it and move forward in spite of it. I
Speaker 2: think that's the question.
Speaker 3: That's a good point I I agree, But also I
Speaker 3: think think there's a lot of space between I really
Speaker 3: need attention and I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks, right, Like,
Speaker 3: I think you can have an awareness of what people think,
Speaker 3: and of course do I want people to listen to
Speaker 3: this conversation and think this is a pretty good conversation.
Speaker 1: It's pretty relevant. These guys are not idiots. I'm going
Speaker 1: to keep listening and maybe to put a message, you know,
Speaker 1: once or twice a year in the postbook, in the
Speaker 1: typ Facebook page and say, hey, harps love the stuff, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love that. I want that. But I think you
Speaker 1: can simultaneously have that level of awareness and enjoy people's
Speaker 1: approval if it comes, but without being a what's the
Speaker 1: word hijacked by that need. I constantly oh, look at
Speaker 1: what I did. I need this many comments, I need
Speaker 1: this many likes. I need this much. You know, because
Speaker 1: a lot of people, obviously, and with the advent of
Speaker 1: social media, they're metric for measuring acceptance and approval is
Speaker 1: some number that happens on their Instagram or their Facebook page,
Speaker 1: or their TikTok page or whatever it is. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: just I'm with you. We need collaboration. We need to belong,
Speaker 1: we need acceptance, we need team for one of a
Speaker 1: better term. But yeah, there's this other thing which is
Speaker 1: which I think is all healthy. But then there's this
Speaker 1: other end of the scale, which I think is an
Speaker 1: unhealthy psychological and emotional addiction to approval that absolutely fucking
Speaker 1: destroys lives and healthy minds. I think I think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of mental illness around people who are hysterically
Speaker 1: driven to get some kind of virtual approval, you know,
Speaker 1: online approval.
Speaker 2: I think we can define this conversation as being a
Speaker 2: self authoring individual, self authored life. I am not dependent
Speaker 2: upon your opinions or your approval, but I'm also not
Speaker 2: completely self directed where I'm ignorant to it, you know
Speaker 2: what I mean. So I'm not dependent on it, but
Speaker 2: I'm not completely insensitive or unaware. And the only voice
Speaker 2: that resonates with me is my own. The only opinion
Speaker 2: that really moves me is the frame from my own perspective.
Speaker 2: I can. I can take in opinions, I could be
Speaker 2: shaped by them, I could pay attention to them. But still,
Speaker 2: at the very same time, I have this inward understanding
Speaker 2: of what's important to me and who I am who
Speaker 2: I want to be, and how that allows me to
Speaker 2: incorporate yet at the same time transcend those opinions and
Speaker 2: still move forward and you know, act with a level
Speaker 2: of autonomy.
Speaker 1: I was talking to her mum recently and she was
Speaker 1: telling me about she's got I think thirteen and a
Speaker 1: fifteen year old girl. Two girls, and those girls do
Speaker 1: not give a fuck about what their mum thinks, Like
Speaker 1: I don't give a shit if she endorses or supports
Speaker 1: or approves. They don't care. But they they care the
Speaker 1: most about what their girlfriends think about what boys think.
Speaker 1: It's like they care about what some boy that they
Speaker 1: don't really know or some girl that they don't really
Speaker 1: know thinks, like one thousand times more than their own mother.
Speaker 1: Like and as she said, I hope it's a phase
Speaker 1: because and they're just like you know, these two is.
Speaker 2: When you think about why we need each other. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, life was pretty different a long time ago.
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, thanks Captain obvious. But if your social
Speaker 2: reference group, if you're tribed in approve of you, you
Speaker 2: are likely going to be eaten very soon or you
Speaker 2: were going to starve to death. So you know, social
Speaker 2: support and people's opinions. I mean, for the most part,
Speaker 2: I think when people go through that stage, they know
Speaker 2: that mom loves them very deeply, and they've got mom,
Speaker 2: you know. I think it is a phase because so
Speaker 2: much of their identity and sense of psychological safety anyway,
Speaker 2: is shaped by the PEP, by your peer groups. So
Speaker 2: obviously you would have an over index sensitivity to that.
Speaker 2: Not saying you should be insensitive to the feelings or
Speaker 2: opinions of your parents, but I mean we all go
Speaker 2: through to one degree or another, some type of phase
Speaker 2: with that, and it usually in a lot of cases
Speaker 2: come to an end and you realize, oh wow, one
Speaker 2: mom was right, how irritating of horror and two yeah
Speaker 2: this is this is one of you know, the most
Speaker 2: important people in my life. It's probably a fairs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, It's that whole interpersonal social dynamics, how it works,
Speaker 1: how it works at different stages of people's journey, you know,
Speaker 1: teenagers versus people in their twenties versus even now. I
Speaker 1: I think sounds I don't know how it sounds, but
Speaker 1: I'm quite careful about who I spend personal time with
Speaker 1: because in my work and in my kind of incidental
Speaker 1: bumping into people, seeing people around. I really try to
Speaker 1: be present and be of service and value, and there's
Speaker 1: not many days that go by where I'm not out
Speaker 1: and about and I don't get asked a question by
Speaker 1: somebody right, or multiple questions, or somebody wants to talk
Speaker 1: to me or say al which I'm very grateful for,
Speaker 1: very thankful. But then away from work and awake from
Speaker 1: Craig the whatever, I am bloke, I just don't want
Speaker 1: to invest too much time in just for me, meaningless
Speaker 1: just interactions. I'm like, I don't want to. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: tell who, of course, but there are some people that
Speaker 1: they're lovely. I just don't want to hang out though.
Speaker 1: I'm like, ah, this just doesn't and it's not all
Speaker 1: about me clearly, But you know, when you get to
Speaker 1: the point where you go, I don't have a lot
Speaker 1: of free time. I don't have a lot of personal
Speaker 1: quiet time, and so if I do have that, I
Speaker 1: either want to be alone. I want to be with
Speaker 1: somebody that I actually really am glad that I'm there.
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, this is good. This is better than
Speaker 1: being alone, you know, because for me, often sometimes I'm
Speaker 1: in a situation a lot where I'm like, definitely being
Speaker 1: alone is better than this. Do you ever feel like that?
Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, all the time. I mean I avoid situations
Speaker 2: where it doesn't it doesn't have meaning. And sometimes what
Speaker 2: has meaning, Like spoke to a friend earlier today and
Speaker 2: we have these incredibly powerful and insightful work conversations, but
Speaker 2: there's also this nonsensical banter between the two of us.
Speaker 2: I find that highly meaningful. I find her company provocative
Speaker 2: in all respects. But there are just, you know, other
Speaker 2: types of interactions where I don't get physically moved like that,
Speaker 2: I don't get emotionally engaged. It's like why am I
Speaker 2: even doing this?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And one of the things I struggle with is, you know,
Speaker 2: because I've discussed this before, I think secretly because it's
Speaker 2: not an attribute that I'm aware of. A lot of
Speaker 2: the time, it's usually things that upon reflection, I notice,
Speaker 2: Oh that's what that that was? Where I do I
Speaker 2: do seek approval sometimes, which is so odd because the
Speaker 2: way my mind operates doesn't put a high value on
Speaker 2: approval seeking. Yet I still do it. And I have
Speaker 2: a hard time saying no to things when I know
Speaker 2: I should have said no to that, not yes. So
Speaker 2: I'm becoming a little bit more discerning and a little
Speaker 2: bit more willing. Like I told somebody off over the
Speaker 2: holidays that normally, you know, I just sit with it
Speaker 2: or try to discuss things with them, And I was
Speaker 2: pretty harsh, and for a while I felt bad about that,
Speaker 2: and I was like, no, you know what, I don't
Speaker 2: have to sit here with this person out of any
Speaker 2: sense of obligation or because I feel bad and listen
Speaker 2: to this person's demeaning, disgusting perspective on other human beings.
Speaker 2: I just don't need to do that. Yeah, and I
Speaker 2: was just clear as day. But you know, normally I
Speaker 2: think I would have tried a different path. But yeah,
Speaker 2: the short answer is the alder I get, the more
Speaker 2: discerning I am about who I spend time with and
Speaker 2: what that time consists of.
Speaker 1: I have about five or six. They just happen to
Speaker 1: be blokes, but male friends that I have more than that.
Speaker 1: And these are not best friends, but they're guys that
Speaker 1: I know, or I've known one or two of them
Speaker 1: since school. Some of them you know, but I've known
Speaker 1: all of them for years and years, and maybe it's
Speaker 1: I think it's four. I'm trying to picture them all
Speaker 1: right now. But essentially with these guys, they have asked me,
Speaker 1: between them, hundreds of times the same questions, and it's
Speaker 1: always something about how do I get in shape? How
Speaker 1: do I get lean? How do I get muscle? How
Speaker 1: do I get jacked? How do I get big? You know,
Speaker 1: it's always it's never the fucking meaning of life? Or
Speaker 1: you know, can you explain metaperception? Or can let's talk
Speaker 1: about what right? The nature of reality? It's always like
Speaker 1: how do I get in shape quickly, painlessly and without
Speaker 1: much effort? And you know, or they'll go, oh, I
Speaker 1: want to talk to you about food or oh, and
Speaker 1: I just go to all of them. No, I go no.
Speaker 1: You and I have had at least thirty or forty
Speaker 1: conversations where you've asked me all these questions. And for
Speaker 1: years I've given you my time, my energy, my intellectual property,
Speaker 1: my knowledge, and my kindness, and you haven't done anything
Speaker 1: with it. When you go and do something with it,
Speaker 1: and I see that you have, for three or four
Speaker 1: months supplied the shit that I've already told you, then
Speaker 1: come back to me and we'll talk about phase two.
Speaker 1: But until then, shut the fuck up. I don't have
Speaker 1: any new information and they're like, oh, and I mean
Speaker 1: you know they're friends, right, So I'm not trying. I go,
Speaker 1: you fucking know what to do?
Speaker 2: No, I don't know.
Speaker 1: You go, okay, so should you eat this or that?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Well, of course this. Should you sit on your ass?
Speaker 1: Or should you do thirty minutes cardio day?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: Well, are you doing it?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Are you eating that? No? Okay? Well there's two things
Speaker 1: you know, we both agreed on that you're not doing.
Speaker 1: Do those get back to me in three months. You know,
Speaker 1: there's just I just think there's pointless, fucking exhausting, redundant
Speaker 1: conversations that don't help either person, you know. And I go, dude,
Speaker 1: when you ready, when you are ready to actually do it,
Speaker 1: not talk about it, not pretend, not lie to me,
Speaker 1: not lie to you. Just do it, and don't tell
Speaker 1: me you doing it. Don't ring me, don't fucking message me.
Speaker 1: Just send me a photo in four months when you
Speaker 1: look like a fucking weapon or whatever it is that
Speaker 1: you want to do. But shut the fuck up and
Speaker 1: do the work, because all this talking is fucking annoying
Speaker 1: and achieves achieves nothing. Have you ever done a version
Speaker 1: of that?
Speaker 2: Well? I just realized two One, yeah, because I can
Speaker 2: completely relate to what you're saying. Two, I myself need
Speaker 2: to hit the gym a lot harder because I used
Speaker 2: to get questions like that all the time, but I
Speaker 2: don't anymore, so clearly, Like and I used to get that,
Speaker 2: not just from people I knew but I don't know
Speaker 2: what's going on out there, but just walking around. I
Speaker 2: used to get all these questions from random strangers. Like
Speaker 2: I would sit on the plane and the food would
Speaker 2: come out, and people would go, do you hear that? Anyway?
Speaker 1: People would just not, by the way, we can't hear it.
Speaker 1: What is it?
Speaker 2: Oh, it's my wife just screaming like, hey, hey, I
Speaker 2: don't know who she's on the phone with. And she's
Speaker 2: like there's this like very loud cackle laughter.
Speaker 1: So we go in there and tell us stop fucking
Speaker 1: heaving fun.
Speaker 2: She is definitely having a better time than that conversation. God. Anyway,
Speaker 2: Like strangers used ton't go on the plane, Oh I
Speaker 2: see you didn't eat your muffin? Should I not eat
Speaker 2: my muffin? It's like, oh you didn't. It's like, look,
Speaker 2: first of all, it's none of my business what an
Speaker 2: adult does with their muffin or doesn't do with their muffin. Second,
Speaker 2: it's like I would never be able to get anything
Speaker 2: done or get any peace, Like I would have to
Speaker 2: tell people when they asked me, So, what do you
Speaker 2: do for a living? Hoping it's around exercise, I'm a
Speaker 2: fundraiser for a religious cult. Would you like to discuss
Speaker 2: this more? I think you'd be perfect, and then I
Speaker 2: could just like at least have them leave me alone
Speaker 2: for the next couple of hours. But that kind of
Speaker 2: stuff came to an abrupt end. I don't know when,
Speaker 2: but I don't seem to get those questions anymore.
Speaker 1: So I think we're going to call this episode muff
Speaker 1: and guilt. Might It's always good to catch up with you.
Speaker 1: Love seeing you, love hanging out with you. Where can
Speaker 1: people find you and connect with you?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn not all the time, but I
Speaker 2: am there. I will get back to you, not straight away,
Speaker 2: but I will get back to you as soon as possible.
Speaker 1: Well, I hope you enjoy the winter that you're in
Speaker 1: the middle of. What's the Well, you're in California, right,
Speaker 1: so it doesn't really get cold, Like what is it
Speaker 1: there today? It's like what it's seventies, it's like sixty.
Speaker 2: It's like twenty degrees during the day, and then no,
Speaker 2: it does drop to like twelve degrees at night.
Speaker 1: So are we talking, are we talking Celsius or.
Speaker 2: Does this yeah, oh heavens no, not fahrenheit. I was
Speaker 2: just then twelve degree Fahrenheite weather over in New York City.
Speaker 2: That's that's quite a bit chillier. But yeah, it's pretty
Speaker 2: it's pretty tamperate out here.
Speaker 1: Well, it's always good to catch up with you. I
Speaker 1: hope you have a great year. I'm looking forward to
Speaker 1: lots of awesome conversations with you in twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1: And you're loved and appreciated. See you next time.