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Speaker 1: I get a team. It's Halps and Bobby. It's a

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Speaker 1: You project. It's installment one for the great Man. He's back,

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Speaker 1: the man that we love, who's been an integral part

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Speaker 1: of the You project for years, let's be honest, years.

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Speaker 1: He's probably done somewhere in the vicinity of I would

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Speaker 1: think fuf fifty two one hundred shows. You know him,

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Speaker 1: you love him, I love him. He's my weird little

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Speaker 1: brother from another mother. His name's Robert Capuccio.

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Speaker 2: Hi, bro, I am so happy to be back here

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Speaker 2: with you and all of you. I've missed this. I've

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Speaker 2: missed all of us. Actually, it's technic a little bit

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Speaker 2: of break.

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Speaker 1: I thinking the other day, how some of my friends

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Speaker 1: like my good friends, and that's you. I really well,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of situational and geographical. It's not through choice,

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Speaker 1: but we do most of our connecting while we're talking

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Speaker 1: to like ten thousand people.

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Speaker 2: It's just not having to catch up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's you and me catching up with ten thousand people,

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Speaker 1: just sitting off to our left, just listening, or however

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Speaker 1: many we have. It varies, but yeah, it is a

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Speaker 1: weird kind of relationship in that sense.

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Speaker 2: I like the voyeurism.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well there's that. Let's hope that we have conversations

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Speaker 1: that are actually worth listening to this year. I think

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Speaker 1: we for the most part did last year. So we're

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Speaker 1: recording this. It's my second podcast for the day, folks.

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Speaker 1: So if you go you said that the other day,

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Speaker 1: well that's because it's the same day for me. Right now.

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Speaker 1: I interviewed Professor Chris Evans this morning. If you haven't

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Speaker 1: heard that, listen up, because he's fucking great. But it's

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Speaker 1: the seventh. It's Wednesday, seventh of January, of course, twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty six. And I just told young Robert that right

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Speaker 1: now in now fine city by the Bay down here

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Speaker 1: in Melbourne. It's in the old fashioned language, the fahrenheit language.

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Speaker 1: It's about one hundred and eleven degrees. Well that's the

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Speaker 1: four forty four degrees celsius, and I had to look

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Speaker 1: it up. I think they used to say something like

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Speaker 1: double it and AD thirty. Double the celsius and AD thirty,

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Speaker 1: and that would give you a ballpark number. But let's

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Speaker 1: just go with stupidly hot. Stupidly hot.

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Speaker 2: I don't even know how those form bullas work. I

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Speaker 2: just for the most part just do it in my head.

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Speaker 2: It's almost like operating on two different systems. It's weird,

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Speaker 2: but they both make sense to me anyway.

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Speaker 1: You've lived in countries with both, so you're kind of

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Speaker 1: very temperature fluent. I would say, so when I tell

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Speaker 1: you forty four, you don't have to think is that

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Speaker 1: hot or not? You know that's hot as fuck. So

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Speaker 1: and Professor Chris, who I chatted to this morning, he

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Speaker 1: said it was where he lives minus one, but not

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Speaker 1: far away from him was minus twelve. I'm like, how

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Speaker 1: does it is imagine that I would not cope in

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Speaker 1: minus twelve?

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Speaker 2: Now, just given the choice minus twelve forty four? Ah,

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Speaker 2: that is, what would you rather be in?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good question. Probably forty four, because like

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Speaker 1: this morning, I got up at four point thirty because

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Speaker 1: I knew it was going to be stupid hot, and

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Speaker 1: I started working at four forty five, So when I

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Speaker 1: started walking it was twenty degrees. By the time I

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Speaker 1: got to Caffeine Central, it was probably a balmi twenty

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Speaker 1: three degrees at six hundred. But I kind of look

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Speaker 1: back now and I've done most of my steps for

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Speaker 1: the day I've been out. I'm lucky that I'm lucky

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Speaker 1: that I live on a main street. Let's put an

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Speaker 1: asterisk next to that. But what it means is I

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Speaker 1: can walk out the front door and I can walk

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Speaker 1: in shade for like two kilometers like because I can

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Speaker 1: walk down past the shops and the bustling humanity and

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Speaker 1: have shade over my head the whole time, which is

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Speaker 1: a nice thing to do. It's not It's not my

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Speaker 1: idea walking route, to be honest. But for the bloke

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Speaker 1: who's had probably fifteen to twenty skin cancers cut off

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Speaker 1: his body, walking in the forty four degree brutal sun

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Speaker 1: is probably not a great formula for me. You never

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Speaker 1: had skin you have had skin cancer, not that I

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Speaker 1: know of. No, I could have it now and be undiagnosed.

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Speaker 1: I should probably go. Would you go? But chicked?

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Speaker 2: I need to the doctor a little bit more than

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Speaker 2: I do. But yeah, to my knowledge, and I've never

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Speaker 2: had I've never had skin cancer. I'm I'm the opposite

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Speaker 2: where I mean, I contradict myself because I've lived in

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Speaker 2: heart environments. I would take cold. I would take freezing

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Speaker 2: cold or scortch and heart any day. I just fare

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Speaker 2: better and cold weather than I do in the heat.

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Speaker 2: Although here's the thing. If I had to commit to it,

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Speaker 2: if it's like, all right, you've got a year, I

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Speaker 2: would probably take the heat because I know in Singapore

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Speaker 2: when I first was living there, Oh my days, I

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Speaker 2: was miserable. I was like, I think I'm gonna pass out.

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Speaker 2: I felt like every minute of every day was a

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Speaker 2: struggle when I was outside, because I mean, we didn't

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Speaker 2: get to forty four degrees, but you would, you would

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Speaker 2: be in the upper thirties. Like the thirties were pretty standard.

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Speaker 2: Every day was exactly the same, and it was just

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Speaker 2: so uncomfortably youmid and then after about six months, I

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Speaker 2: didn't care. I was unaffected by it. I just went

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Speaker 2: out and said, oh, it's just a normal day. So

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Speaker 2: I think if I could have enough enough of a

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Speaker 2: chance to acolam, I think I would take the heat.

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Speaker 2: But other than that, I'm a cold weather person.

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Speaker 1: Well I mean, look, you did we weren't basing that

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Speaker 1: on forty four or minus twelve. If it would say

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Speaker 1: two degrees. I'm choosing two degrees all the time, cause

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Speaker 1: you can rug up, you can go for a walk,

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Speaker 1: you can walk in the cold and still be relatively warm,

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Speaker 1: and you can come back into your home and walk

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Speaker 1: around in bare feet in a seventeen or eighteen degree room,

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Speaker 1: you know, thermistatically controlled environment. So this is probably gripping

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Speaker 1: for our listeners. Hey, what did you do?

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Speaker 2: We're literally talking about the weather first podcast in the

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Speaker 2: new Year. It's like talking so how's the weather out there? Grag.

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Speaker 2: It's like two old books.

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Speaker 1: Oh god, yeah, what did you What did you do ever?

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Speaker 1: Christmas in the summer? Do you celebrate or are you

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Speaker 1: low key?

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Speaker 2: Christmas Eve was fantastic where I got to see some

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Speaker 2: really good friends I have not seen in a long time,

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Speaker 2: and you know, I got to go over there and celebrate.

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Speaker 2: And it's amazing because I was sitting down talking to

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Speaker 2: my guard son and it's so weird because I remember

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Speaker 2: holding him when he was a baby and he's a

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Speaker 2: young man in his twenties, like tall, strappingly handsome, extremely intelligent,

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Speaker 2: And it was such a great experience for me. One,

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Speaker 2: I felt really old, that was kind of obnoxious of them.

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Speaker 2: But two to see like a type of individual this

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Speaker 2: guy has become and that was great and it just

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Speaker 2: felt you know, this is a family that basically adopted

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Speaker 2: me in my early twenties and brought me and has

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Speaker 2: wanted their own. And while they they have families of

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Speaker 2: their own, so they weren't all there, enough of them

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Speaker 2: were there, and it just felt it felt so comforting

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Speaker 2: and nostalgic. Christmas. I made a mistake of going into

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Speaker 2: uh to a neighborhood in Brooklyn. I'm used to like

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Speaker 2: Manhattan on Christmas, where everything's open, everyone's like eating Chinese food,

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Speaker 2: everyone's at the cinema. There was nothing. It was dead.

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Speaker 2: I dragged my wife all the way to this neighborhood.

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Speaker 2: It was an absolute ghost town.

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Speaker 1: Wow, it's you and I have you. And I have

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Speaker 1: a similar story in that I have a godson also,

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Speaker 1: who is tall and handsome. Mitchell shout out to Mitchell

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Speaker 1: just turned twenty five. He's a lawyer, and he's you

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Speaker 1: don't you know those people you don't want to get

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Speaker 1: a photo taken with. So he's that person because he's, like,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, five six inches taller than me, one

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Speaker 1: hundred years younger than me. Like not just that he's

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Speaker 1: twenty five, but he could literally be a model, right,

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Speaker 1: twenty five stupidly good looking, good human. I took a

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Speaker 1: photo of Oh no, he after his graduation I just

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Speaker 1: put up a like a proud godfather. I had a

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Speaker 1: proud godfather moment and went, hey, you on, this is

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Speaker 1: my godson. I don't have any kids, so this is

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Speaker 1: as close as it gets to me being a fucking

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Speaker 1: bragging dad. I put up this photo of Mitchell. It

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Speaker 1: got over two hundred thousand views just because he's fucking stunning.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, what about me? Oh yeah, incredible. Oh it's

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Speaker 1: it's a value add one hundred percent. Like oh, looks

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Speaker 1: don't matter. I'm like, fucking bullshit. Have you seen it?

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Speaker 1: It's like he's a handsome boy. And it went nuts.

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Speaker 1: And what else was hilarious was and this is something

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Speaker 1: that I rang him and I went, have you seen

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Speaker 1: the stats on your photo? Like it's not me and him,

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Speaker 1: it's him. And he's like yeah, I said, what's the

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Speaker 1: thing that stands out to you? So there was over

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Speaker 1: a thousand people that saved the photo. I'm like, what

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Speaker 1: is that about? Like, why are all these strangers around

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Speaker 1: the world saving your photo to their phone?

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Speaker 2: I don't find that a bit weird at all. Actually, wow,

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Speaker 2: yeah that's something they can't say I ever do. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: not saying if you're one of those people that saved

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Speaker 2: the photo. You're weird, I mean just a little bit,

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Speaker 2: but not much, just just just slightly tipping over on

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Speaker 2: the wrong end of the weird scale. But yeah, I

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Speaker 2: think our entire world is based on and I don't

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Speaker 2: know how much of that is commercialism or vanity or

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Speaker 2: maybe it's evolution genetic compatibility, but we are attracted to

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Speaker 2: all things and people that are beautiful. I think there

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Speaker 2: is something I don't want to say, deeply spiritual. I

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Speaker 2: don't want to go there, but there is something deeply

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Speaker 2: resonant with things of beauty, like not just not just people.

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Speaker 2: I mean not to be like this guy who talks

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Speaker 2: about his cats, but even my cats. If there is

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Speaker 2: something that is beautiful, like a sculptor or they'll stare

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Speaker 2: at it and they'll like tilt their head and it's like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I don't know what they're thinking. I mean, I don't

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Speaker 2: know how much of an art critic my cat is.

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Speaker 2: Who knows. Maybe he has very complex thoughts. Maybe he's

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Speaker 2: like a you know, pretentious little muppet, just sitting there, like,

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Speaker 2: you know, like wishing he had a glass of wine

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Speaker 2: and he could say something somewhat intelligent about what he's

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Speaker 2: looking at, or maybe he just see something icy and

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Speaker 2: like me, can't really describe it, but knows that it's compelling.

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Speaker 1: From yeah, yeah. The beauty conversation is a slippery slope

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Speaker 1: and a tricky door to open in a public forum

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Speaker 1: because on the one hand, we want to say it

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter, which I agree with in terms of you know,

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Speaker 1: a person's whether or not how loved a person should be,

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Speaker 1: or how valuable they are or they work all of that.

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Speaker 1: We get that you're not a better person because you

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Speaker 1: happen to have good genetics and you're born pretty or handsome.

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Speaker 1: We get that. And so in a world where the

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Speaker 1: kind of the messaging is it doesn't matter, the reality

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Speaker 1: is away from the messaging, people who are attractive and

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Speaker 1: tall men who are tall tend to get rewarded, right,

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Speaker 1: and that we might not like that. That might not

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Speaker 1: be a message we want to hear, but it's the

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Speaker 1: fucking truth. And you have to look at like the

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Speaker 1: stats on I think it was who was it was

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Speaker 1: somebody recently, it'll come to me, But they were talking

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Speaker 1: about on dating apps, like guys that are tall, irrespective

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Speaker 1: of all of the other variables get significantly more matches

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Speaker 1: so or more interest or more dates or whatever it is.

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Speaker 1: I just yeah, I think that it's it's hardwired into

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Speaker 1: us that we find some things, whether it's a waterfall,

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Speaker 1: or whether or not it's a piece of art, or

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Speaker 1: whether or not it's a human, or whether or not

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Speaker 1: it's a fucking labrador puppy. Oh my god, get me

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Speaker 1: near a Golden Retriever or a Labrador puppy. I'm fucking

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Speaker 1: I'm gone. That's it. I'm done. They're the cutest things

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Speaker 1: of all time. You put me in front of an

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Speaker 1: ard Vark, I'm like, not, fuck your ardvark. Give me

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Speaker 1: a golden Redream puppy. Shout out to the Ardvark lovers,

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Speaker 1: you know, Like, and I don't want to be It's

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Speaker 1: like I wish that wasn't I wish I didn't feel

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Speaker 1: that way. But it's like, I'm not choosing to find

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Speaker 1: a labrador puppy cute and an ardvark not. That's just

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Speaker 1: something innate. That's part of how I'm wired, you know,

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Speaker 1: just like some people are attracted to men, some people

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Speaker 1: are attracted to women, some people are attracted to both.

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Speaker 1: It's it's how they're wired. Some people, fucking you know,

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Speaker 1: love motorbikes. Some people are terrified. Like we're all different,

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Speaker 1: and we all are either aroused by, or attracted to,

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Speaker 1: or enamored with, or fascinated with or curious about different things.

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Speaker 1: But it's almost like you're in trouble if you don't

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Speaker 1: agree with the narrative about what you should find attractive.

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Speaker 2: There's so many things I want to unpack here. First

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Speaker 2: of all, you know, there's I'm becoming less and less

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Speaker 2: invested in whatever the narrative tells me that I should

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Speaker 2: be discussing or not discussing. I know, I had my

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Speaker 2: social media apps on my phone when I was away

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Speaker 2: on holiday because I knew I didn't want to bring

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Speaker 2: my iPad or whatever, and I usually keep everything on

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Speaker 2: separate devices as a behavior modification tool. So during the holidays,

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Speaker 2: I found myself surfing on social media way more than

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Speaker 2: I normally would, And every message seems like every other message.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to say every message, because there are

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Speaker 2: some really cool and I'll use the word beautiful things

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Speaker 2: on social media I found, but every other message is

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Speaker 2: look at what these people are doing. Aren't you outraged?

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Speaker 2: Look at how they think? And people come out. Well,

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Speaker 2: I think this, and it's like it's a forum where

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Speaker 2: I don't have to see you. I don't have to

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Speaker 2: empathize with you. I don't need to engage in or

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Speaker 2: demonstrate critical thinking. All I have to do is put

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Speaker 2: something that is emotionally provocative and incite some type of

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Speaker 2: angry or fear based response, and that's that whole engagement there.

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Speaker 2: I don't really care about that. But you know, talking

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Speaker 2: about like things that are beautiful, and I look at

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Speaker 2: this a little bit differently because, as we know, we've

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Speaker 2: had conversations about this. Growing up, I was not what

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Speaker 2: you would consider beautiful. I mean, I'm no prized now,

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Speaker 2: let's just be clear for the people who have only

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Speaker 2: experienced me on audio, but I was physically deformed. I

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Speaker 2: was disfigured in my face. So for me, beauty was

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Speaker 2: a very interesting subject. I looked at it like, wow,

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Speaker 2: I didn't even want to be beautiful. I just wanted

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Speaker 2: to be normal, Like I wanted to be a solid

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Speaker 2: five where I didn't evoke a positive or negative response

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Speaker 2: in someone and I could pretty much go unnoticed.

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Speaker 1: But kind of like kind of like desert boots. Do

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Speaker 1: you know what desert boots. Huh.

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Speaker 2: We had this conversation, yeah, years ago.

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Speaker 1: It's a desert boot is kind of your multi functional.

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Speaker 1: It's like it's it's yeah, it's not it's not a

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Speaker 1: dress shoe, it's not an athletic shoe. It's like, it's

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Speaker 1: not ugly, it's not pretty something we would call it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so you just aspired to be a human desert boot,

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Speaker 1: just sys functional, just just go unnoticed.

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Speaker 2: That was my goal to attract as little attention as

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Speaker 2: I possibly could. Then I went ahead and chose public

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Speaker 2: speaking as a career, so that didn't work out very

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Speaker 2: well for me. But there are beautiful attributes in people

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Speaker 2: that transcend appearance, obviously, and I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: the ways that we engage with one another, increasingly engaged

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Speaker 2: with one another has the potential to either draw those

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Speaker 2: out or in a lot of ways, suppress that. And

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Speaker 2: what surfaces is something far more ugly. I mean, you

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Speaker 2: could be And when people say looks don't matter, I

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Speaker 2: used to get really angry about that because the people

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Speaker 2: that used to tell me that about dating were, for

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Speaker 2: the most part, very good looking people. Wow, looks don't matter.

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Speaker 2: That's like you know that, that's like you know someone

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Speaker 2: who is a deca millionaire telling a homeless person that

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Speaker 2: money won't make it happy. It'll definitely, it'll definitely change

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Speaker 2: this person's experience of the world today, won't it. And

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Speaker 2: So when I would hear that, I rejected it. But

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Speaker 2: as I'm getting older and as I reflect upon people

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Speaker 2: who I am very attracted to, not just physically but

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Speaker 2: emotionally and psychologically, Yeah, there's so there's so many attributes

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Speaker 2: that do have nothing to do with physical appearance that

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Speaker 2: make you highly attractive, and I think everybody has those

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Speaker 2: quite honestly. The question is is the environment you're in,

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Speaker 2: is it bringing it out or is it suppressing it

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Speaker 2: in favor of I think which less attractive.

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Speaker 1: We're going to make a distinction between, you know, So

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Speaker 1: if we're talking about attraction here, let's let's have too care.

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Speaker 1: Let's have the physical attraction where the person might be

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Speaker 1: complete prick. Right. But yeah, yeah, I mean there's lots

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Speaker 1: of people who are fucking stunning, but not particularly nice people, right,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure. And there are a lot of beautiful, amazing

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Speaker 1: people who are physically and emotionally beautiful, right, But I

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Speaker 1: think you know that despite the message, you know it

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter what you look like. Well, my experience is

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Speaker 1: fat kid, fat kid, fat kid, very few friends, no

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Speaker 1: attention from the opposite sex, nobody interested in me, Da,

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Speaker 1: da da, all of that. And there's no self pity

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Speaker 1: in this, by the way, anyone, So don't mistake the

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Speaker 1: story of self pity. There's none. There's just awareness. And

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Speaker 1: then I get fit, and then I get strong, and

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Speaker 1: I lose all this weight, and I start training, and

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Speaker 1: for my genetic potential, I get in good shape. I'm

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Speaker 1: now strong, I'm now fit, I'm now lean. I'm not

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Speaker 1: a great athlete, but I'm not the worst athlete. I'm

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Speaker 1: not winning, but I'm going okay. All of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: I'm not socially invisible. All of a sudden, I'm not

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Speaker 1: number thirty on the list of thirty. I'm maybe in

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Speaker 1: the top fifteen now, all of a sudden. And so

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Speaker 1: my lesson was, oh, Craig, when you look different, when

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Speaker 1: you look better, people like you more, Craig. When you

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Speaker 1: lose weight, when you're lean, when you're less ugly, when

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Speaker 1: you're less whatever, this is my story to me, Then

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Speaker 1: you're more desirable. People want you more, people are attracted

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Speaker 1: to you more. Girls actually notice you, girls even want

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Speaker 1: to talk to you. Fucking hell, this is a revolution, right,

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Speaker 1: And so it's very hard when you go through an

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Speaker 1: experience like you did and I did, where you got

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Speaker 1: rejected for how you look. And I'm not trying to

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Speaker 1: compare my story to yours, because you had it infinitely

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Speaker 1: harder than I did. But it's yeah, you grow up

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Speaker 1: and you go, oh, well, the evidence tells me that

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Speaker 1: when I look better, I'm treated better. That's my n

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Speaker 1: equals one. Research is like, the data tells me that

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Speaker 1: when I'm out of shape and what people would typically label,

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Speaker 1: you know, or you know back then anyway a fat kid,

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Speaker 1: you know, then in a certain response and then in

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Speaker 1: shape different. So it's it's well and good, but that

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Speaker 1: the you know, we kind of our beliefs are intertwined

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Speaker 1: really with our experiences more so than what some you know,

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Speaker 1: mouthpiece over the airways tells us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really hard. It's really hard to be open

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Speaker 2: to a worldview when all of your experiences have presented

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Speaker 2: evidence to the contrary. And it's not just data, it's

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Speaker 2: experiences that have severe emotional wheat. I think you know,

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Speaker 2: the fact of being wanted and being accepted versus being rejected.

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Speaker 2: I think that shapes all of us in highly profound ways. Yet,

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Speaker 2: you know, to your point about I've encountered people that

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Speaker 2: are just so physically stunning, but their personalities are just

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Speaker 2: not And I've been about as sexually attracted to them

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Speaker 2: as I am a red eminem you know, totally neutral.

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Speaker 2: I mean, everybody knows blue eminem's are dead sexy, they

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Speaker 2: are so hot, they're just plain So yeah, and the

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Speaker 2: opposite as well, people who I might not have noticed

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Speaker 2: originally but they were so kind, or they were absolutely witty,

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Speaker 2: or there was something that I found gorgeous about this person,

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Speaker 2: and over time I became extremely attracted to them. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: there's there's I think the point that I'm trying to

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Speaker 2: make is around what is your antidote? I've talked about that,

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Speaker 2: I've talked about that film.

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Speaker 1: What do you mean today to what?

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Speaker 2: Well I've talked about midnight in Paris on the show.

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Speaker 1: Before You're banned from talking about films or producers or

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Speaker 1: books today?

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Speaker 2: What?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Okay, so go on, I'll give you. I'll give

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Speaker 1: you one one joker card if you go.

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Speaker 2: So one morning I was I woke up, I was

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Speaker 2: in Denver, right, you remember our Denver offices, and my

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Speaker 2: friend Morgan, she was like, hey, you want to go

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Speaker 2: see a film. It's at this Mayan cinema and it's

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Speaker 2: this art deco cinema. It hasn't been it hasn't been

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Speaker 2: changed since the nineteen twenties other than like renovated, but

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Speaker 2: it still has the same look and it's like talk

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Speaker 2: about things of beauty, So like, yeah, let's go see

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Speaker 2: a film. When we went to go see Midnight in Paris,

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Speaker 2: and there's just there's this one scene. And I've talked

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Speaker 2: about it a lot because what I love about cinema

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Speaker 2: is at its best, any form of art is provocative.

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Speaker 2: It changes the way the way you think, the way

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Speaker 2: you feel. At its deepest level, it changes something out you.

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Speaker 2: And there was this one line where Owen Wilson, who's

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Speaker 2: playing this role of a guy that was a screenwriter

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Speaker 2: who went back in time, so it's this whole magical thing.

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Speaker 2: He's sitting across from Gertrude Stein and she reads his man,

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Speaker 2: she reads his novel, and she tells him what a

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Speaker 2: beautiful voice he has, but then she chastises him, says, God,

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Speaker 2: but you're such a defeatist, and he's arguing with her

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Speaker 2: about the nature of reality. I mean, she hasn't seen

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Speaker 2: the horrors of the late twentieth and twenty first century. Now,

400
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Speaker 2: she hasn't seen the rise of the Nazi regime, so

401
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Speaker 2: on and so forth. But the thing she doesn't argue

402
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Speaker 2: with him. She agrees. But then she says something, not

403
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Speaker 2: gertrue Stein, but herself, but obviously Kathleen Bates. And it

404
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Speaker 2: was this beautiful line where she said, yeah, but you're

405
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Speaker 2: an artist, and it's not the job of the artist

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Speaker 2: to succumb to despair. The job of the artist is

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Speaker 2: to find an antidote for the emptiness of existence. And

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Speaker 2: I think that we, and I do mean we me

409
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Speaker 2: are in an environment where more and more people are

410
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Speaker 2: succumbing to something, whether it is emptiness or despair, or

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Speaker 2: whether it's anger or fear. And I think there's got

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Speaker 2: to be an antidote that is so important to you,

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Speaker 2: not that it erases the context of reality, but makes

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Speaker 2: it tolerable and allows you to flourish and engage and

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Speaker 2: be a human being and contribute and form bonds in

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Speaker 2: spite of it, or maybe even because of it, because

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Speaker 2: the stakes are so high. So that's kind of where

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Speaker 2: my mind is going, like what are the things that

419
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Speaker 2: make people beautiful to other people? It's definitely not the

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Speaker 2: shit we say about one another and to one another

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Speaker 2: on so social media. That's definitely not it. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I think sometimes somebody will say something that is just

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Speaker 2: so abhorrent and my first response is, how are you

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Speaker 2: a freaking person? Like are you raising kids? Are you

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Speaker 2: teaching them this stuff? Like when you tuck them in,

426
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 2: do you tell them to find people who are vulnerable

427
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 2: and suffering and injure them for the sheer thrill of it?

428
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 2: Like wow? Like like do you show up at work

429
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 2: pretending to be a normal person but you're this? And

430
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:36,640
Speaker 2: then I'm like, wait, what is it like to be them?

431
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:39,400
Speaker 2: And maybe it's that state in that experience And I'm

432
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,439
Speaker 2: not excusing any of it, but maybe that experience of

433
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 2: being them produces that type of response.

434
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: And it's just it's a slippery slope that it's an

435
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: overused term today, Craig, not your self, but that I'm

436
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 1: with you, like what you see people's behavior, you know

437
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: so much at the moment with the online echo chambers,

438
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 1: and You're right, someone will come out and say something

439
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 1: that's one hundred percent going to be one way or

440
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: the other polarizing. And so you're gonna have two groups.

441
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: You're going to go the yeah, Bobby, you're exactly right,

442
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 1: fuck them, and then you're gonna have the no, fuck

443
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 1: you Bobby group, right, And it's essentially that, And it

444
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: doesn't matter what you say. You're like pro A and

445
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 1: I'm pro B. Well, it doesn't matter how well you

446
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,280
Speaker 1: say A or sell A. I'm never going to jump

447
00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 1: off the B train onto the A train because I'm

448
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 1: not open minded. I don't hear what you think. I

449
00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:38,480
Speaker 1: just I'm here to just critique you and argue with

450
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,199
Speaker 1: you and all of those things. But I this to

451
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: me is like a It's almost like this unconscious, unhealthy,

452
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 1: ongoing form of self sabotage and wasted potential where we

453
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 1: are spending countless hours and countless energy on bullshit that

454
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,200
Speaker 1: doesn't move the needle in a good way for either side,

455
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: Like there's nothing I understand it. I understand that you're upset,

456
00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: I understand they're upset. I understand you disagree with them.

457
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: But by the way, it doesn't matter what you say.

458
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 1: No one's going to go fucking hell, Bobby, that's a

459
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: good point. All these years I've been wrong. I've just

460
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 1: had a revelation. I owe it all to you. I've

461
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 1: just you are the light in the darkness. Bobby. How

462
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: my god, I wish I met you five years ago.

463
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: You've just renovated my mind. You've just that's not happening

464
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:45,200
Speaker 1: fucking ever. So we you know, we constantly pay attention

465
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: to shit that is toxic and destructive and unhelpful, while

466
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:57,840
Speaker 1: simultaneously not using our energy and attention and cognitive horsepower

467
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 1: to do things which could move the needle. You know

468
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. It's like, oh no, it's much easier

469
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: for me to winge and bitch and point the finger

470
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 1: and complain and point out the fucking flaws in everyone

471
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:15,080
Speaker 1: else then for me to go to the mirror and go,

472
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,719
Speaker 1: all right, Craig, what the fuck are you doing? What

473
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: are you doing about your bullshit? What do you need

474
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: to own up to? Craig? And you know, I've been

475
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:28,040
Speaker 1: working on me forever, and my list of bullshit I

476
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 1: need to work on is no shorter because new things

477
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 1: come up all the time. I was going to ask you,

478
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: do you think that we are born like it seems

479
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: to me like three four two three four five year olds.

480
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: Not that you and I would know because we're not

481
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,479
Speaker 1: dad's but we've been around enough kids, I guess, and

482
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 1: parents and families. Do you think that kids are inherently confidence?

483
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 1: I know there's a few variables around that context, family influence,

484
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 1: and then they be come less confident. I feel like

485
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: when I was a little kid, I was very confident.

486
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 1: Then I lost confidence when I started to realize that

487
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: how I looked was not great. And then I spent

488
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:19,400
Speaker 1: much of my life at that point in time trying

489
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: to get approval from recognition, acceptance, love from people I

490
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 1: didn't even fucking know. I cared so much about what

491
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:32,520
Speaker 1: people thought. What do you think about that?

492
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 2: That's an interesting question. I don't think that kids are

493
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 2: more confident in the way that I would define confidence,

494
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:45,480
Speaker 2: But I think they are much less self conscious, right

495
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 2: because in part they're more present and they don't have

496
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 2: that internal dialogue or internal editor critic turned up at

497
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 2: a very high volume until they go out in the

498
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: world and somebody points something out to them, like I know.

499
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 2: I think I remember clearly the exact day that I

500
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 2: figured out I was different and it was the first

501
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 2: day of school when I was five, right, because all

502
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,400
Speaker 2: the kids were asking me why I looked the way

503
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 2: I did, but nobody was asking anybody else that question.

504
00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 2: So I thought, oh, I look different. I don't think

505
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 2: that ever. I mean, I don't have that much vivid

506
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 2: memories of my childhood before that, but I don't think

507
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 2: I ever thought I was different. It didn't occur to me.

508
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 2: So I wouldn't have had my interactions with people as

509
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: a young child shaped by that knowledge because I just

510
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 2: don't believe I possessed it. And then my first day

511
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 2: of school, it's like, oh, okay, And then that was

512
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 2: my experience every single day from that point forward.

513
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 1: So new people who aren't familiar with you just explain

514
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: what what they would have seen. I don't know. I'm

515
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,440
Speaker 1: sure you're okay to talk about this because you've spoken

516
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: about it, but like there'll be people who today are

517
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 1: listening to you for the first time. What what would

518
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: they have seen?

519
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 2: Those kids, I mean, they would have seen just my lip,

520
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: my nose. The shape of my teeth was just different.

521
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 2: They were just slanted so so like one end of

522
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 2: my lip was much higher than the other. My nose

523
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 2: was kind of kind of turned sideways a bit, with

524
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:47,840
Speaker 2: my nostrils almost stacked one above the other. My teeth

525
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 2: were different, the shape of my palate was it wasn't

526
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,720
Speaker 2: It wasn't a cleft palate. It was something else. But

527
00:31:54,480 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 2: it could be analogous to that, you could say, so

528
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 2: that that's what they would have seen. And yeah, I

529
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 2: found a couple of pits, or my wife somehow found

530
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 2: a couple of pictures of me when I was a

531
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 2: little kid, and yeah, it's not like terrifying, but I

532
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: was different enough that kids, especially brought it up, and

533
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:18,120
Speaker 2: some adults as well, which was kind of interesting. I

534
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 2: don't think I can't imagine myself commenting to a little

535
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,800
Speaker 2: kid on their physical appearance. But you know, it's just

536
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 2: the way it happened, So it does It does shape you.

537
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: Did you think day one of school, when all of

538
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: a sudden you were being in undated with questions about

539
00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: your appearance? Were you curious about that? Was it like

540
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: were these innocent questions from kids or were these loaded

541
00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: questions or was it a bit of everything? Like? Did

542
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: you both from that? That? Fucking hell? Am I hideous?

543
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 2: What is you know?

544
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: What? Did you have both right.

545
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 2: So some of it had, you know, malicious intent, Why

546
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 2: do you look like that? Why are you so others

547
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,959
Speaker 2: were honest questions like why does your face look different

548
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 2: than just about every other human being, probably every human

549
00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:10,960
Speaker 2: life up until this point It's like, oh, okay, well,

550
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm five. I didn't even realize this

551
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 2: point there was an issue. But the point is not

552
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 2: about my deformed face growing up. The point is that

553
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 2: things are introduced to us that begin to shape us

554
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: once we're aware of them, whether it you know, whether

555
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 2: it would have been oh my god, why do you

556
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 2: why is your voice so hideous? Shut up and stop singing,

557
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:36,719
Speaker 2: or you know, your paintings don't look as good as

558
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 2: somebody else, or any of that kind of stuff. And

559
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 2: by the way, I think we need a degree of that,

560
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,360
Speaker 2: you know, even at a young age and definitely on

561
00:33:45,440 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 2: our adult life. But there needs to be kind of

562
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 2: an equal balance of support and challenge to kind of

563
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 2: keep us growing and being confident and self aware and

564
00:33:56,880 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 2: humble enough to kind of continually reflect and evaluate ourselves

565
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 2: and move forward. But I think sometimes they're especially things

566
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 2: that are threatening to our sense of identity or hurt us. Yes,

567
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 2: coming from people we love or people that we look

568
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 2: to for some form of safety. Those hold a lot

569
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 2: more weight. So I think mom and dad praising your

570
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 2: picture like that you wrote and they put it on

571
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 2: the fridge may not inspire you to be an artist.

572
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 2: But if dad goes, oh, man, god, this is this

573
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 2: is you know, if you could do anything else with

574
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 2: your life. I know you're only six, but if you

575
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 2: could do anything else, art might not be your thing

576
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 2: that can shape you to a much greater degree.

577
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's kind of sad and funny. Why do

578
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 1: you think even you know, people who are smart must

579
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 1: have had Listen is a pretty pretty intelligent, pretty educated

580
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:07,399
Speaker 1: one way or the other, and definitely fascinated with psychology

581
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 1: and human behavior and understanding the self. But at the

582
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: same time, I do it less than I ever have

583
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: in my life, but I still do it. We all

584
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: know that we don't need people's approval, but nonetheless we

585
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: want it. What do you think that is about? And

586
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:31,280
Speaker 1: even perhaps more importantly, why do we periodically look from

587
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: for approval from people who don't even fucking like us

588
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: or know us? Is that just what is that? Is

589
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 1: that a childhood thing? Is that just ingrained? In security.

590
00:35:45,920 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 2: I think it's all of the above. I don't know

591
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,759
Speaker 2: if it's that we don't need people's approval as much

592
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 2: as we're defined by it, we're deeply affected by it.

593
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 2: And yes, I do believe that to a degree, we

594
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,879
Speaker 2: need people's approval. And when I hear somebody say I don't,

595
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,480
Speaker 2: I don't give two fox what anybody thinks of me,

596
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: it's like you're you're either delusional and you're part of

597
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 2: the problem, or you're scared and you're very hurt. Someone

598
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,399
Speaker 2: hurt you, something happened to you. Because human beings need

599
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,719
Speaker 2: each other. Because if we didn't need each other, none

600
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 2: of us would be here. We would have died out

601
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 2: a very long time ago. We are the slowest and

602
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 2: weakest animal on the African savannah, no fangs, no clause.

603
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 2: All we had are these opposable thumbs. Language and collaboration

604
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 2: is what made that whole thing work. The story of

605
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 2: humanity is the story of social cohesion and collaboration. So

606
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 2: I think we need it. The question is are we

607
00:36:45,080 --> 00:36:48,719
Speaker 2: defined by it? Can I take your opinion of me,

608
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 2: evaluate it and move forward in spite of it. I

609
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:54,720
Speaker 2: think that's the question.

610
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 3: That's a good point I I agree, But also I

611
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 3: think think there's a lot of space between I really

612
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,759
Speaker 3: need attention and I don't give a fuck what anyone thinks, right, Like,

613
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,799
Speaker 3: I think you can have an awareness of what people think,

614
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:14,279
Speaker 3: and of course do I want people to listen to

615
00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 3: this conversation and think this is a pretty good conversation.

616
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: It's pretty relevant. These guys are not idiots. I'm going

617
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: to keep listening and maybe to put a message, you know,

618
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 1: once or twice a year in the postbook, in the

619
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,439
Speaker 1: typ Facebook page and say, hey, harps love the stuff, right, Yeah,

620
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: I love that. I want that. But I think you

621
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:38,560
Speaker 1: can simultaneously have that level of awareness and enjoy people's

622
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 1: approval if it comes, but without being a what's the

623
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:47,680
Speaker 1: word hijacked by that need. I constantly oh, look at

624
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: what I did. I need this many comments, I need

625
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,399
Speaker 1: this many likes. I need this much. You know, because

626
00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:55,840
Speaker 1: a lot of people, obviously, and with the advent of

627
00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 1: social media, they're metric for measuring acceptance and approval is

628
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: some number that happens on their Instagram or their Facebook page,

629
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: or their TikTok page or whatever it is. Yeah, I

630
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: just I'm with you. We need collaboration. We need to belong,

631
00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 1: we need acceptance, we need team for one of a

632
00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: better term. But yeah, there's this other thing which is

633
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,919
Speaker 1: which I think is all healthy. But then there's this

634
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 1: other end of the scale, which I think is an

635
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: unhealthy psychological and emotional addiction to approval that absolutely fucking

636
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 1: destroys lives and healthy minds. I think I think there's

637
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: a lot of mental illness around people who are hysterically

638
00:38:43,239 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 1: driven to get some kind of virtual approval, you know,

639
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:49,000
Speaker 1: online approval.

640
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:56,279
Speaker 2: I think we can define this conversation as being a

641
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 2: self authoring individual, self authored life. I am not dependent

642
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 2: upon your opinions or your approval, but I'm also not

643
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:14,360
Speaker 2: completely self directed where I'm ignorant to it, you know

644
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,040
Speaker 2: what I mean. So I'm not dependent on it, but

645
00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 2: I'm not completely insensitive or unaware. And the only voice

646
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 2: that resonates with me is my own. The only opinion

647
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 2: that really moves me is the frame from my own perspective.

648
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 2: I can. I can take in opinions, I could be

649
00:39:38,360 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 2: shaped by them, I could pay attention to them. But still,

650
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 2: at the very same time, I have this inward understanding

651
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,919
Speaker 2: of what's important to me and who I am who

652
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 2: I want to be, and how that allows me to

653
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 2: incorporate yet at the same time transcend those opinions and

654
00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 2: still move forward and you know, act with a level

655
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:02,920
Speaker 2: of autonomy.

656
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 1: I was talking to her mum recently and she was

657
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: telling me about she's got I think thirteen and a

658
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: fifteen year old girl. Two girls, and those girls do

659
00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: not give a fuck about what their mum thinks, Like

660
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: I don't give a shit if she endorses or supports

661
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:32,879
Speaker 1: or approves. They don't care. But they they care the

662
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 1: most about what their girlfriends think about what boys think.

663
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: It's like they care about what some boy that they

664
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: don't really know or some girl that they don't really

665
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,800
Speaker 1: know thinks, like one thousand times more than their own mother.

666
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,760
Speaker 1: Like and as she said, I hope it's a phase

667
00:40:51,960 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 1: because and they're just like you know, these two is.

668
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 2: When you think about why we need each other. I mean,

669
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: you know, life was pretty different a long time ago.

670
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,240
Speaker 2: I mean, yeah, thanks Captain obvious. But if your social

671
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 2: reference group, if you're tribed in approve of you, you

672
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 2: are likely going to be eaten very soon or you

673
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 2: were going to starve to death. So you know, social

674
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:24,439
Speaker 2: support and people's opinions. I mean, for the most part,

675
00:41:25,520 --> 00:41:27,799
Speaker 2: I think when people go through that stage, they know

676
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,360
Speaker 2: that mom loves them very deeply, and they've got mom,

677
00:41:31,680 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 2: you know. I think it is a phase because so

678
00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,960
Speaker 2: much of their identity and sense of psychological safety anyway,

679
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:42,840
Speaker 2: is shaped by the PEP, by your peer groups. So

680
00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:47,000
Speaker 2: obviously you would have an over index sensitivity to that.

681
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 2: Not saying you should be insensitive to the feelings or

682
00:41:50,239 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 2: opinions of your parents, but I mean we all go

683
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 2: through to one degree or another, some type of phase

684
00:41:55,719 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 2: with that, and it usually in a lot of cases

685
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,759
Speaker 2: come to an end and you realize, oh wow, one

686
00:42:03,360 --> 00:42:07,360
Speaker 2: mom was right, how irritating of horror and two yeah

687
00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: this is this is one of you know, the most

688
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 2: important people in my life. It's probably a fairs.

689
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, It's that whole interpersonal social dynamics, how it works,

690
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: how it works at different stages of people's journey, you know,

691
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:30,400
Speaker 1: teenagers versus people in their twenties versus even now. I

692
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 1: I think sounds I don't know how it sounds, but

693
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 1: I'm quite careful about who I spend personal time with

694
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 1: because in my work and in my kind of incidental

695
00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: bumping into people, seeing people around. I really try to

696
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:51,759
Speaker 1: be present and be of service and value, and there's

697
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: not many days that go by where I'm not out

698
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: and about and I don't get asked a question by

699
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:00,680
Speaker 1: somebody right, or multiple questions, or somebody wants to talk

700
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 1: to me or say al which I'm very grateful for,

701
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 1: very thankful. But then away from work and awake from

702
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: Craig the whatever, I am bloke, I just don't want

703
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 1: to invest too much time in just for me, meaningless

704
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: just interactions. I'm like, I don't want to. I wouldn't

705
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 1: tell who, of course, but there are some people that

706
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:25,439
Speaker 1: they're lovely. I just don't want to hang out though.

707
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: I'm like, ah, this just doesn't and it's not all

708
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 1: about me clearly, But you know, when you get to

709
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: the point where you go, I don't have a lot

710
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 1: of free time. I don't have a lot of personal

711
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: quiet time, and so if I do have that, I

712
00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,520
Speaker 1: either want to be alone. I want to be with

713
00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:45,959
Speaker 1: somebody that I actually really am glad that I'm there.

714
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, this is good. This is better than

715
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:53,560
Speaker 1: being alone, you know, because for me, often sometimes I'm

716
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 1: in a situation a lot where I'm like, definitely being

717
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: alone is better than this. Do you ever feel like that?

718
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:05,520
Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, all the time. I mean I avoid situations

719
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 2: where it doesn't it doesn't have meaning. And sometimes what

720
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 2: has meaning, Like spoke to a friend earlier today and

721
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 2: we have these incredibly powerful and insightful work conversations, but

722
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 2: there's also this nonsensical banter between the two of us.

723
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 2: I find that highly meaningful. I find her company provocative

724
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:35,000
Speaker 2: in all respects. But there are just, you know, other

725
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 2: types of interactions where I don't get physically moved like that,

726
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 2: I don't get emotionally engaged. It's like why am I

727
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 2: even doing this?

728
00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 1: Yeah?

729
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 2: And one of the things I struggle with is, you know,

730
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:52,040
Speaker 2: because I've discussed this before, I think secretly because it's

731
00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 2: not an attribute that I'm aware of. A lot of

732
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:58,680
Speaker 2: the time, it's usually things that upon reflection, I notice,

733
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,399
Speaker 2: Oh that's what that that was? Where I do I

734
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 2: do seek approval sometimes, which is so odd because the

735
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 2: way my mind operates doesn't put a high value on

736
00:45:13,120 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 2: approval seeking. Yet I still do it. And I have

737
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 2: a hard time saying no to things when I know

738
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,520
Speaker 2: I should have said no to that, not yes. So

739
00:45:22,560 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 2: I'm becoming a little bit more discerning and a little

740
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,400
Speaker 2: bit more willing. Like I told somebody off over the

741
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 2: holidays that normally, you know, I just sit with it

742
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 2: or try to discuss things with them, And I was

743
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 2: pretty harsh, and for a while I felt bad about that,

744
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:40,479
Speaker 2: and I was like, no, you know what, I don't

745
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 2: have to sit here with this person out of any

746
00:45:43,160 --> 00:45:47,160
Speaker 2: sense of obligation or because I feel bad and listen

747
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:53,720
Speaker 2: to this person's demeaning, disgusting perspective on other human beings.

748
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 2: I just don't need to do that. Yeah, and I

749
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 2: was just clear as day. But you know, normally I

750
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:03,040
Speaker 2: think I would have tried a different path. But yeah,

751
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,640
Speaker 2: the short answer is the alder I get, the more

752
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:08,080
Speaker 2: discerning I am about who I spend time with and

753
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 2: what that time consists of.

754
00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:14,600
Speaker 1: I have about five or six. They just happen to

755
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:19,320
Speaker 1: be blokes, but male friends that I have more than that.

756
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:21,799
Speaker 1: And these are not best friends, but they're guys that

757
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 1: I know, or I've known one or two of them

758
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: since school. Some of them you know, but I've known

759
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: all of them for years and years, and maybe it's

760
00:46:31,280 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: I think it's four. I'm trying to picture them all

761
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:37,600
Speaker 1: right now. But essentially with these guys, they have asked me,

762
00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:43,719
Speaker 1: between them, hundreds of times the same questions, and it's

763
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 1: always something about how do I get in shape? How

764
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: do I get lean? How do I get muscle? How

765
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:52,040
Speaker 1: do I get jacked? How do I get big? You know,

766
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 1: it's always it's never the fucking meaning of life? Or

767
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 1: you know, can you explain metaperception? Or can let's talk

768
00:46:59,160 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: about what right? The nature of reality? It's always like

769
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 1: how do I get in shape quickly, painlessly and without

770
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 1: much effort? And you know, or they'll go, oh, I

771
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 1: want to talk to you about food or oh, and

772
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 1: I just go to all of them. No, I go no.

773
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 1: You and I have had at least thirty or forty

774
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 1: conversations where you've asked me all these questions. And for

775
00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:28,280
Speaker 1: years I've given you my time, my energy, my intellectual property,

776
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 1: my knowledge, and my kindness, and you haven't done anything

777
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: with it. When you go and do something with it,

778
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:39,879
Speaker 1: and I see that you have, for three or four

779
00:47:39,920 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: months supplied the shit that I've already told you, then

780
00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:45,959
Speaker 1: come back to me and we'll talk about phase two.

781
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:49,160
Speaker 1: But until then, shut the fuck up. I don't have

782
00:47:49,200 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 1: any new information and they're like, oh, and I mean

783
00:47:53,520 --> 00:47:55,839
Speaker 1: you know they're friends, right, So I'm not trying. I go,

784
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: you fucking know what to do?

785
00:47:59,239 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 2: No, I don't know.

786
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 1: You go, okay, so should you eat this or that?

787
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 2: Oh?

788
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 1: Well, of course this. Should you sit on your ass?

789
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 1: Or should you do thirty minutes cardio day?

790
00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:06,759
Speaker 2: Oh?

791
00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 1: Well, are you doing it?

792
00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:08,759
Speaker 2: No?

793
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,640
Speaker 1: Are you eating that? No? Okay? Well there's two things

794
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,760
Speaker 1: you know, we both agreed on that you're not doing.

795
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,840
Speaker 1: Do those get back to me in three months. You know,

796
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:22,720
Speaker 1: there's just I just think there's pointless, fucking exhausting, redundant

797
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 1: conversations that don't help either person, you know. And I go, dude,

798
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 1: when you ready, when you are ready to actually do it,

799
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: not talk about it, not pretend, not lie to me,

800
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 1: not lie to you. Just do it, and don't tell

801
00:48:38,719 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: me you doing it. Don't ring me, don't fucking message me.

802
00:48:42,680 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 1: Just send me a photo in four months when you

803
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:46,920
Speaker 1: look like a fucking weapon or whatever it is that

804
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 1: you want to do. But shut the fuck up and

805
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 1: do the work, because all this talking is fucking annoying

806
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 1: and achieves achieves nothing. Have you ever done a version

807
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:57,879
Speaker 1: of that?

808
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 2: Well? I just realized two One, yeah, because I can

809
00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:07,359
Speaker 2: completely relate to what you're saying. Two, I myself need

810
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 2: to hit the gym a lot harder because I used

811
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 2: to get questions like that all the time, but I

812
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 2: don't anymore, so clearly, Like and I used to get that,

813
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:21,120
Speaker 2: not just from people I knew but I don't know

814
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 2: what's going on out there, but just walking around. I

815
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 2: used to get all these questions from random strangers. Like

816
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 2: I would sit on the plane and the food would

817
00:49:29,520 --> 00:49:35,960
Speaker 2: come out, and people would go, do you hear that? Anyway?

818
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 1: People would just not, by the way, we can't hear it.

819
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 1: What is it?

820
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 2: Oh, it's my wife just screaming like, hey, hey, I

821
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,399
Speaker 2: don't know who she's on the phone with. And she's

822
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 2: like there's this like very loud cackle laughter.

823
00:49:53,560 --> 00:49:56,400
Speaker 1: So we go in there and tell us stop fucking

824
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 1: heaving fun.

825
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:02,120
Speaker 2: She is definitely having a better time than that conversation. God. Anyway,

826
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:05,800
Speaker 2: Like strangers used ton't go on the plane, Oh I

827
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 2: see you didn't eat your muffin? Should I not eat

828
00:50:07,719 --> 00:50:09,959
Speaker 2: my muffin? It's like, oh you didn't. It's like, look,

829
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 2: first of all, it's none of my business what an

830
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 2: adult does with their muffin or doesn't do with their muffin. Second,

831
00:50:16,040 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 2: it's like I would never be able to get anything

832
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 2: done or get any peace, Like I would have to

833
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 2: tell people when they asked me, So, what do you

834
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:25,200
Speaker 2: do for a living? Hoping it's around exercise, I'm a

835
00:50:25,200 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 2: fundraiser for a religious cult. Would you like to discuss

836
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:30,640
Speaker 2: this more? I think you'd be perfect, and then I

837
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 2: could just like at least have them leave me alone

838
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,360
Speaker 2: for the next couple of hours. But that kind of

839
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 2: stuff came to an abrupt end. I don't know when,

840
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:39,760
Speaker 2: but I don't seem to get those questions anymore.

841
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,160
Speaker 1: So I think we're going to call this episode muff

842
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: and guilt. Might It's always good to catch up with you.

843
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: Love seeing you, love hanging out with you. Where can

844
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:50,759
Speaker 1: people find you and connect with you?

845
00:50:52,520 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm on LinkedIn not all the time, but I

846
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,879
Speaker 2: am there. I will get back to you, not straight away,

847
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:00,840
Speaker 2: but I will get back to you as soon as possible.

848
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:05,480
Speaker 1: Well, I hope you enjoy the winter that you're in

849
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 1: the middle of. What's the Well, you're in California, right,

850
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:10,520
Speaker 1: so it doesn't really get cold, Like what is it

851
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 1: there today? It's like what it's seventies, it's like sixty.

852
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:17,960
Speaker 2: It's like twenty degrees during the day, and then no,

853
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,440
Speaker 2: it does drop to like twelve degrees at night.

854
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,839
Speaker 1: So are we talking, are we talking Celsius or.

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00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 2: Does this yeah, oh heavens no, not fahrenheit. I was

856
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,479
Speaker 2: just then twelve degree Fahrenheite weather over in New York City.

857
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 2: That's that's quite a bit chillier. But yeah, it's pretty

858
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:36,439
Speaker 2: it's pretty tamperate out here.

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00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 1: Well, it's always good to catch up with you. I

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00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 1: hope you have a great year. I'm looking forward to

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00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,719
Speaker 1: lots of awesome conversations with you in twenty twenty six.

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00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 1: And you're loved and appreciated. See you next time.