1
00:00:01,129 --> 00:00:02,890
Speaker 1: I don't think somebody should be allowed to come in

2
00:00:02,950 --> 00:00:05,529
Speaker 1: and write fake stories. They're fake news.

3
00:00:06,050 --> 00:00:09,110
Speaker 2: For years, Donald Trump's attacks on the media were treated

4
00:00:09,250 --> 00:00:13,130
Speaker 2: as part of the spectacle of his politics. Now, three

5
00:00:13,230 --> 00:00:16,590
Speaker 2: major news organisations have had their White House passes revoked,

6
00:00:17,030 --> 00:00:18,810
Speaker 2: and Trump says others could follow.

7
00:00:18,829 --> 00:00:22,770
Speaker 1: A very simple ban. I don't want him in my office.

8
00:00:22,870 --> 00:00:24,890
Speaker 1: I don't want him here. I would say the ban

9
00:00:24,910 --> 00:00:25,970
Speaker 1: would go as far as you can.

10
00:00:26,270 --> 00:00:29,700
Speaker 2: Here in Australia, we're seeing Pauline Hanson follow the same playbook.

11
00:00:30,180 --> 00:00:34,120
Speaker 2: with One Nation repeatedly deciding which news organisations can attend

12
00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:39,060
Speaker 2: its press conferences. But unlike America, Australia's press freedoms have

13
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,389
Speaker 2: remarkably few legal protections backing them. So what happens when

14
00:00:43,510 --> 00:00:47,070
Speaker 2: politicians stop respecting the rules we've simply assumed they would follow?

15
00:00:47,090 --> 00:00:55,580
Speaker 2: I'm Ruby Jones, and you're listening to 7am. Today, journalist

16
00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,910
Speaker 2: and press freedom advocate, Peter Craster, on how fragile press

17
00:00:58,950 --> 00:01:02,010
Speaker 2: freedom is in Australia, and why we've relied so long

18
00:01:02,170 --> 00:01:12,100
Speaker 2: on convention rather than law. It's Friday, September 25.

19
00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:16,400
Speaker 3: Peter, welcome to the show.

20
00:01:16,819 --> 00:01:17,780
Speaker 1: Thanks very much for having me.

21
00:01:18,860 --> 00:01:22,060
Speaker 2: Over the weekend in the US, Trump banned some journalists,

22
00:01:22,140 --> 00:01:25,959
Speaker 2: including those from CNN and Politico, from the White House.

23
00:01:26,020 --> 00:01:28,300
Speaker 2: And this was just another step in what is a

24
00:01:28,860 --> 00:01:31,860
Speaker 2: long and fractious relationship between Trump and the press in

25
00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,120
Speaker 2: the US. Can you tell me, to begin with, a

26
00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,160
Speaker 2: bit about what he said at the time and what

27
00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:36,960
Speaker 2: happened next?

28
00:01:37,700 --> 00:01:39,820
Speaker 1: So I think it's worth backing up a little bit.

29
00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:42,260
Speaker 1: You said it's just the latest, and it is just

30
00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,900
Speaker 1: the latest in a long and fairly fractious relationship, but

31
00:01:44,940 --> 00:01:47,720
Speaker 1: it is hard to overstate the significance of this one.

32
00:01:48,410 --> 00:01:52,090
Speaker 1: Trump in the past has kicked out CNN's White House

33
00:01:52,130 --> 00:02:02,400
Speaker 1: correspondent in his first administration, Jim Acosta. That was overturned

34
00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,600
Speaker 1: by the courts as a violation of the First Amendment rights.

35
00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:10,419
Speaker 1: He's also banned Associated Press from parts of the White

36
00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,380
Speaker 1: House from the Oval Office, but hasn't revoked their passes.

37
00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:17,600
Speaker 1: So in some respects, this feels like a continuation of

38
00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:22,410
Speaker 1: of a fairly long-running battle. But he's never actually banned

39
00:02:22,750 --> 00:02:26,410
Speaker 1: three entire organizations from the White House and revoked their passes.

40
00:02:26,450 --> 00:02:29,350
Speaker 1: And that is a very, very significant step. What happened

41
00:02:29,450 --> 00:02:32,710
Speaker 1: was that at a news conference, he complained about those

42
00:02:32,750 --> 00:02:36,169
Speaker 1: news organizations and said that he'd be taking some action. Mr. President,

43
00:02:36,270 --> 00:02:38,490
Speaker 1: on the ban, what does that mean in practice?

44
00:02:38,570 --> 00:02:40,010
Speaker 3: Are you taking away their badges?

45
00:02:40,070 --> 00:02:41,560
Speaker 2: Are you banning them from the pool?

46
00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:42,919
Speaker 3: What does this actually mean?

47
00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:45,739
Speaker 1: When you say the ban, you don't have any bans

48
00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:46,530
Speaker 1: I'm involved in.

49
00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:47,320
Speaker 4: I got more bans.

50
00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:50,359
Speaker 1: A lot of journalists wondered what that would look like

51
00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,660
Speaker 1: until the next day. Over the weekend on Saturday, they

52
00:02:53,710 --> 00:02:55,830
Speaker 1: tried to enter the White House using their passes, and

53
00:02:55,850 --> 00:02:57,490
Speaker 1: they had those passes confiscated.

54
00:02:57,930 --> 00:03:00,730
Speaker 4: I went to scan my badge and enter my PIN number,

55
00:03:00,910 --> 00:03:04,370
Speaker 4: and the lights around the reader blinked red. I tried

56
00:03:04,410 --> 00:03:07,670
Speaker 4: it again, and then the officer asked me to hand

57
00:03:07,830 --> 00:03:10,429
Speaker 4: over my badge, and he said that it's been disabled.

58
00:03:10,810 --> 00:03:12,110
Speaker 4: And I asked, can you tell me why?

59
00:03:14,740 --> 00:03:17,380
Speaker 1: Big TV news networks that were all part of what's

60
00:03:17,419 --> 00:03:20,519
Speaker 1: known as the White House press pool all had a

61
00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,160
Speaker 1: chat to work out how they were going to respond,

62
00:03:23,650 --> 00:03:27,169
Speaker 1: and they decided to withdraw their support that they were

63
00:03:27,190 --> 00:03:29,730
Speaker 1: going to withdraw from the press pool itself. And that

64
00:03:29,770 --> 00:03:31,690
Speaker 1: is a very big deal. This is the big news

65
00:03:31,730 --> 00:03:36,270
Speaker 1: organizations that provide the TV coverage, not just to each other,

66
00:03:36,310 --> 00:03:38,730
Speaker 1: but to the entire world, saying, we're not going to

67
00:03:38,770 --> 00:03:40,740
Speaker 1: play ball. Now, of course, there are all sorts of

68
00:03:40,780 --> 00:03:43,540
Speaker 1: other ways that the video can get out. There's no

69
00:03:43,560 --> 00:03:46,340
Speaker 1: shortage of people with mobile phones and the White House

70
00:03:46,380 --> 00:03:50,080
Speaker 1: has its own streaming capacity. But not being on the networks,

71
00:03:50,380 --> 00:03:52,420
Speaker 1: I think, is a very big deal and it escalates

72
00:03:52,460 --> 00:03:53,470
Speaker 1: this pretty significantly.

73
00:03:53,820 --> 00:03:57,230
Speaker 2: Yeah, that show of solidarity that we saw from the

74
00:03:57,270 --> 00:04:01,340
Speaker 2: big US broadcasters, that's unusual. And, I mean, tell me

75
00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,420
Speaker 2: a bit more about the impact of that in terms

76
00:04:03,500 --> 00:04:06,869
Speaker 2: of making life different for Trump and the White House

77
00:04:06,930 --> 00:04:08,490
Speaker 2: and the way that he's covered.

78
00:04:09,070 --> 00:04:12,170
Speaker 1: Well, if there's one thing we know about President Donald Trump,

79
00:04:12,230 --> 00:04:15,630
Speaker 1: it is that he absolutely loves the media. He loves

80
00:04:15,670 --> 00:04:19,230
Speaker 1: the cameras. He's always referencing them. He's been the most

81
00:04:19,290 --> 00:04:23,900
Speaker 1: visible president in US history. And the networks are a

82
00:04:23,940 --> 00:04:29,560
Speaker 1: really important part of that. And withdrawing that coverage... even

83
00:04:29,650 --> 00:04:32,620
Speaker 1: for a relatively brief period, I think sends a very

84
00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,360
Speaker 1: strong message to the president. And we also saw the

85
00:04:35,420 --> 00:04:37,940
Speaker 1: impact of that in practical ways too. Just after the

86
00:04:37,980 --> 00:04:43,040
Speaker 1: White House pool shut down, the president had the ribbon-cutting

87
00:04:43,100 --> 00:04:46,440
Speaker 1: ceremony for a brand new helipad that he's taken a

88
00:04:46,460 --> 00:04:48,940
Speaker 1: great deal of pride in. And he had Marine One,

89
00:04:49,460 --> 00:04:52,669
Speaker 1: the official presidential helicopter, whirring away in the background. And

90
00:04:52,710 --> 00:04:55,130
Speaker 1: although the White House ran a video feed, you couldn't

91
00:04:55,170 --> 00:04:57,070
Speaker 1: hear what he was saying because they just didn't have

92
00:04:57,730 --> 00:05:00,810
Speaker 1: the professionals who are capable of rigging microphones that would

93
00:05:00,830 --> 00:05:09,630
Speaker 1: allow you to capture the president's voice. And so it

94
00:05:09,650 --> 00:05:12,460
Speaker 1: was a pretty embarrassing event for the president, but it

95
00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,099
Speaker 1: was also quite a powerful demonstration of just how important

96
00:05:15,140 --> 00:05:18,479
Speaker 1: it is to have good technicians, good professionals covering the president.

97
00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,720
Speaker 2: And so to turn to what's happening here in Australia,

98
00:05:21,820 --> 00:05:24,409
Speaker 2: why do you think we haven't seen... that same kind

99
00:05:24,430 --> 00:05:27,230
Speaker 2: of solidarity when it comes to the obvious comparison. So

100
00:05:27,250 --> 00:05:30,589
Speaker 2: that's Pauline Hanson banning the ABC and reporters from The

101
00:05:30,630 --> 00:05:32,250
Speaker 2: Guardian as well from her press events.

102
00:05:32,740 --> 00:05:36,080
Speaker 1: Look, I don't think what we're seeing coming from One

103
00:05:36,140 --> 00:05:40,380
Speaker 1: Nation is quite as dramatic or as serious as the

104
00:05:40,400 --> 00:05:43,640
Speaker 1: president kicking news organisations out of the White House. After all,

105
00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,619
Speaker 1: One Nation isn't the party of government, at least not yet.

106
00:05:48,500 --> 00:05:50,550
Speaker 1: And this is the first time we've seen this kind

107
00:05:50,589 --> 00:05:54,740
Speaker 1: of solidarity. But I do think there is a real

108
00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:58,400
Speaker 1: need now for news organizations in Australia to stand together

109
00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:00,120
Speaker 1: and say, look, we're not going to put up with this.

110
00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,320
Speaker 1: Whatever we think about one another and however competitive we are,

111
00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,620
Speaker 1: we need to recognize that for the sake of everybody,

112
00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:09,640
Speaker 1: for the sake of not just the news organizations, but

113
00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:11,980
Speaker 1: for the sake of our democracy, we need to stand

114
00:06:12,020 --> 00:06:15,300
Speaker 1: together and make it very clear to governments and politicians

115
00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:18,020
Speaker 1: and political parties, not just Pauline Hanson, but right across

116
00:06:18,060 --> 00:06:20,500
Speaker 1: the board, that you don't get to pick and choose

117
00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:23,650
Speaker 1: who gets to cover you. That's just not a part

118
00:06:23,670 --> 00:06:25,450
Speaker 1: of how a democracy should work.

119
00:06:26,010 --> 00:06:29,260
Speaker 2: And as you say, One Nation, it's a minor political

120
00:06:29,320 --> 00:06:32,980
Speaker 2: party making decisions about who covers its own events. But

121
00:06:33,500 --> 00:06:36,410
Speaker 2: you've written that Australia shouldn't look at what Trump is

122
00:06:36,470 --> 00:06:39,610
Speaker 2: doing in the US and assume that that couldn't happen

123
00:06:39,670 --> 00:06:41,690
Speaker 2: here in Australia. So why not?

124
00:06:42,190 --> 00:06:45,010
Speaker 1: Because what we've seen in the United States, and remember,

125
00:06:45,270 --> 00:06:47,930
Speaker 1: we've so often looked to the US as a bastion

126
00:06:47,990 --> 00:06:50,150
Speaker 1: of freedom of speech, of press freedom. After all, it

127
00:06:50,190 --> 00:06:54,990
Speaker 1: has that storied First Amendment to its constitution that guarantees

128
00:06:55,510 --> 00:06:58,130
Speaker 1: freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of association

129
00:06:58,210 --> 00:07:04,219
Speaker 1: and so on. We don't have anything like that. We

130
00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:08,100
Speaker 1: don't have anywhere near the kind of traditions, we don't

131
00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,910
Speaker 1: have anywhere near the kind of legal traditions backstops that

132
00:07:11,150 --> 00:07:12,850
Speaker 1: exist in the united states and we need to be

133
00:07:12,930 --> 00:07:16,480
Speaker 1: very mindful of the way in which erosion of these

134
00:07:17,060 --> 00:07:21,600
Speaker 1: democratic norms can lead to the erosion of our democracy itself.

135
00:07:24,620 --> 00:07:28,040
Speaker 2: Coming up if an australian government shut journalists out here

136
00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:39,480
Speaker 2: what would they have to fall back on Peter, when

137
00:07:39,740 --> 00:07:43,060
Speaker 2: Trump has launched attacks on the media in the US,

138
00:07:43,220 --> 00:07:46,700
Speaker 2: those news organisations, they can go to court, they can

139
00:07:46,900 --> 00:07:51,610
Speaker 2: invoke the First Amendment. But what protection would an Australian

140
00:07:51,710 --> 00:07:53,350
Speaker 2: outlet have in the same situation?

141
00:07:53,930 --> 00:07:56,670
Speaker 1: We don't. The most we have is what's known as

142
00:07:57,090 --> 00:08:00,760
Speaker 1: the implied freedom of political communication. And this is something

143
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,500
Speaker 1: that the High Court back in the late 1990s has

144
00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,840
Speaker 1: inferred between the lines of our constitution. It's looked at

145
00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:08,930
Speaker 1: our constitution and said, well, we have a system of

146
00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:13,489
Speaker 1: representative democracy, and because you can't have representative democracy without

147
00:08:13,550 --> 00:08:15,690
Speaker 1: freedom of political communication, we can kind of read it

148
00:08:15,870 --> 00:08:20,490
Speaker 1: between the lines. But that is a very, very weak backstop.

149
00:08:20,530 --> 00:08:22,600
Speaker 1: And in fact, there was one High Court judge who,

150
00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:26,140
Speaker 1: in a ruling from 2021, actually said that he wasn't

151
00:08:26,180 --> 00:08:30,930
Speaker 1: even entirely sure if that implied freedom actually existed. We

152
00:08:30,970 --> 00:08:34,190
Speaker 1: also know that in certain critical cases, the implied freedom

153
00:08:34,230 --> 00:08:37,010
Speaker 1: hasn't worked. It hasn't done its job to protect media freedom.

154
00:08:37,030 --> 00:08:39,550
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking in particular of the case of the

155
00:08:39,630 --> 00:08:42,150
Speaker 1: ABC when the ABC went to the federal court to

156
00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:45,980
Speaker 1: appeal against the federal police warrant that was used to

157
00:08:46,020 --> 00:08:49,339
Speaker 1: investigate the Afghan files story back in 2019.

158
00:08:49,340 --> 00:08:53,099
Speaker 5: Federal police left the ABC Sydney headquarters yesterday afternoon with

159
00:08:53,140 --> 00:08:57,120
Speaker 5: a series of files after an eight-hour raid over allegations

160
00:08:57,179 --> 00:09:01,510
Speaker 5: the broadcaster had published classified material. And the ABC has

161
00:09:01,550 --> 00:09:04,790
Speaker 5: described this event as a savage assault on the media.

162
00:09:05,250 --> 00:09:07,190
Speaker 1: And then the judge said, listen, you're asking me to

163
00:09:07,230 --> 00:09:09,890
Speaker 1: chuck out a perfectly valid warrant written against a very

164
00:09:09,990 --> 00:09:12,110
Speaker 1: clear statute, and you're asking me to throw that out

165
00:09:12,230 --> 00:09:15,170
Speaker 1: using something that you vaguely inferred from between the lines

166
00:09:15,210 --> 00:09:19,829
Speaker 1: of the Constitution. He said, that doesn't really wash. And that,

167
00:09:19,890 --> 00:09:24,350
Speaker 1: I think, demonstrates just how fragile this implied freedom really is.

168
00:09:24,730 --> 00:09:27,650
Speaker 1: And remember, we are the only liberal democracy in the

169
00:09:27,710 --> 00:09:31,290
Speaker 1: world that doesn't have press freedom laws. written into either

170
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,460
Speaker 1: our constitution or a bill of rights. And that, I think,

171
00:09:34,520 --> 00:09:36,550
Speaker 1: is a really critical problem for us.

172
00:09:37,120 --> 00:09:39,160
Speaker 3: So we're weaker off even than the US, is what

173
00:09:39,179 --> 00:09:39,560
Speaker 3: you're saying?

174
00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:42,840
Speaker 1: Much weaker. All we rely on is this implied freedom

175
00:09:43,380 --> 00:09:47,479
Speaker 1: and the history of conventions which support press freedom. But

176
00:09:47,500 --> 00:09:50,570
Speaker 1: there is nothing explicitly in law that says it is

177
00:09:50,610 --> 00:09:52,030
Speaker 1: a part of our democratic system.

178
00:09:52,550 --> 00:09:54,090
Speaker 3: And so, I mean, why is that?

179
00:09:54,150 --> 00:09:57,410
Speaker 2: Why do we not have more protections for journalists? Why have,

180
00:09:57,710 --> 00:09:59,890
Speaker 2: you know, along the way, major parties not come on

181
00:10:00,059 --> 00:10:00,920
Speaker 2: board with that idea?

182
00:10:01,900 --> 00:10:04,540
Speaker 1: It's a hard one to answer. I mean, obviously, we

183
00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:09,350
Speaker 1: know Australia's history of constitutional reform. It's always been very,

184
00:10:09,390 --> 00:10:12,150
Speaker 1: very difficult for us to get constitutional reform over the

185
00:10:12,210 --> 00:10:15,209
Speaker 1: line and And I find it hard to imagine circumstances

186
00:10:15,270 --> 00:10:18,280
Speaker 1: in which the Australian public would agree to recognise the media,

187
00:10:18,300 --> 00:10:22,100
Speaker 1: given the kind of difficult relationship that we currently have.

188
00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:25,780
Speaker 1: And I also think we haven't had the kind of

189
00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:30,510
Speaker 1: crisis that would force us to take a good hard

190
00:10:30,550 --> 00:10:34,810
Speaker 1: look and think about the importance of press freedoms. And

191
00:10:34,850 --> 00:10:38,030
Speaker 1: I think we came close to recognising the issue when

192
00:10:38,070 --> 00:10:41,490
Speaker 1: the AFP raids happened in 2019. There was a lot

193
00:10:41,510 --> 00:10:44,970
Speaker 1: of existential angst then. There were two parliamentary inquiries that

194
00:10:45,010 --> 00:10:48,230
Speaker 1: made a host of recommendations to strengthen press freedom, but

195
00:10:48,270 --> 00:10:50,030
Speaker 1: nothing really came of that.

196
00:10:50,250 --> 00:10:52,599
Speaker 6: Journalists who were targets of police raids would be given

197
00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:57,400
Speaker 6: new protections under recommendations made by an important parliamentary inquiry

198
00:10:57,420 --> 00:11:01,300
Speaker 6: into media freedoms. Its long-awaited report calls for stricter procedures

199
00:11:01,340 --> 00:11:04,400
Speaker 6: for the issuing of warrants on national security grounds. But

200
00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,530
Speaker 6: at rejected calls by media organisations, they'd be allowed to

201
00:11:07,630 --> 00:11:09,410
Speaker 6: challenge the warrants before they're issued.

202
00:11:09,429 --> 00:11:11,450
Speaker 1: Now, the point that I've been trying to make is

203
00:11:11,510 --> 00:11:14,590
Speaker 1: that it's impossible to tell the stories not told as

204
00:11:14,630 --> 00:11:16,610
Speaker 1: a result of the way that a lot of the

205
00:11:16,670 --> 00:11:22,640
Speaker 1: overbearing legislation suppresses press freedom. We are incredibly heavily legislated

206
00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,020
Speaker 1: when it comes to national security laws. We've got more

207
00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,079
Speaker 1: national security laws since 9-11 than any other country on earth.

208
00:11:28,830 --> 00:11:30,989
Speaker 1: And in all sorts of ways, that's limited the work

209
00:11:31,010 --> 00:11:34,360
Speaker 1: that journalists are able to do. It's exposed journalist sources.

210
00:11:34,460 --> 00:11:38,440
Speaker 1: It's frightened a lot of otherwise important investigations because of

211
00:11:38,500 --> 00:11:41,620
Speaker 1: the risks that news organizations are undertaking when they do

212
00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:46,140
Speaker 1: these things. And so even though we're not seeing journalists

213
00:11:46,179 --> 00:11:48,480
Speaker 1: dragged off in manacles, we know that the law is

214
00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,040
Speaker 1: working as it's intended, and that is as a deterrent. Yeah.

215
00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:54,780
Speaker 2: Tell me how that could change under a Media Freedom Act.

216
00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:56,570
Speaker 2: What could that look like? What could that allow?

217
00:11:57,110 --> 00:11:59,969
Speaker 1: What we're advocating for is, and we've put together a

218
00:11:59,970 --> 00:12:01,950
Speaker 1: draft bill that we're planning to publish later this year,

219
00:12:02,650 --> 00:12:05,920
Speaker 1: what we're advocating for is not the right for journalists

220
00:12:05,940 --> 00:12:08,719
Speaker 1: to publish whatever they want, whenever they want, but we

221
00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:12,300
Speaker 1: want there to be a positive obligation to recognise the

222
00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:17,080
Speaker 1: public interest in the work that journalists do alongside the

223
00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:21,850
Speaker 1: public interest in protecting sensitive information. Now, sometimes, perhaps even

224
00:12:21,910 --> 00:12:24,890
Speaker 1: most of the time, courts might decide that it's important

225
00:12:24,910 --> 00:12:28,670
Speaker 1: to protect the information from getting out. But there will

226
00:12:28,700 --> 00:12:32,800
Speaker 1: be times when the public interest in exposing that information

227
00:12:33,179 --> 00:12:36,179
Speaker 1: trumps the public interest in keeping it hidden. And I

228
00:12:36,220 --> 00:12:39,560
Speaker 1: want the courts to have an obligation to recognize that

229
00:12:39,620 --> 00:12:43,120
Speaker 1: public interest and weigh those two competing interests together.

230
00:12:43,690 --> 00:12:45,450
Speaker 2: Can you tell me any more about how it would

231
00:12:45,570 --> 00:12:49,449
Speaker 2: better protect journalists from things like those police raids on

232
00:12:49,470 --> 00:12:50,820
Speaker 2: the ABC that we were talking about?

233
00:12:52,030 --> 00:12:54,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, one of the things that we want, and we've

234
00:12:54,220 --> 00:12:56,559
Speaker 1: been very careful not to try anything that hasn't been

235
00:12:56,580 --> 00:13:00,740
Speaker 1: or propose anything that hasn't been tested. In the United Kingdom,

236
00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,059
Speaker 1: they've got what they call the PACE Act, the Police

237
00:13:03,100 --> 00:13:07,559
Speaker 1: and Criminal Evidence Act, and that gives journalists the right

238
00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:11,540
Speaker 1: to contest warrants with the point that they're issued. Our

239
00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:14,380
Speaker 1: journalists are advised that a warrant is being sought and

240
00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,689
Speaker 1: they have the opportunity to go before the court and say, look,

241
00:13:16,730 --> 00:13:19,229
Speaker 1: here's why there is a public interest in the work

242
00:13:19,250 --> 00:13:21,270
Speaker 1: that we're doing. We need to be able to protect

243
00:13:21,330 --> 00:13:22,969
Speaker 1: our sources. We need to be able to go ahead

244
00:13:23,010 --> 00:13:26,229
Speaker 1: and continue the investigation. We think there is an overriding

245
00:13:26,270 --> 00:13:29,180
Speaker 1: public interest here and we want something similar to that.

246
00:13:29,740 --> 00:13:32,040
Speaker 1: So in the case of the ABC raids, the ABC

247
00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:34,200
Speaker 1: would have a chance to go before a judge and say, listen,

248
00:13:34,300 --> 00:13:38,580
Speaker 1: we're reporting on allegations of war crimes by Australian special forces.

249
00:13:38,620 --> 00:13:41,350
Speaker 1: There is a very, very clear and compelling public interest

250
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:43,689
Speaker 1: in this. We haven't published anything and we're not going

251
00:13:43,730 --> 00:13:48,069
Speaker 1: to publish anything that would genuinely damage national security. You

252
00:13:48,110 --> 00:13:50,830
Speaker 1: need to back off. And although I can't speak for

253
00:13:50,870 --> 00:13:52,790
Speaker 1: a judge, I think if I was sitting on the bench,

254
00:13:52,850 --> 00:13:54,490
Speaker 1: I'd find that a pretty compelling argument.

255
00:13:55,530 --> 00:13:58,989
Speaker 2: And there is this tension or irony even in the

256
00:13:59,030 --> 00:14:00,930
Speaker 2: fact that we want press freedom to be able to

257
00:14:01,210 --> 00:14:04,110
Speaker 2: freely interrogate government, but you need government support to get

258
00:14:04,150 --> 00:14:05,430
Speaker 2: an act like this over the line.

259
00:14:05,450 --> 00:14:07,970
Speaker 3: How optimistic are you of that?

260
00:14:09,580 --> 00:14:15,140
Speaker 1: It's a really interesting question. I think, in principle, politicians

261
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,949
Speaker 1: across the board recognise and understand and pay lip service

262
00:14:19,330 --> 00:14:24,450
Speaker 1: to the idea of press freedom and recognise the importance

263
00:14:24,490 --> 00:14:27,810
Speaker 1: of what we're arguing for. There is a bit of

264
00:14:27,850 --> 00:14:31,990
Speaker 1: sensitivity around the notion that perhaps this might in some

265
00:14:32,030 --> 00:14:35,570
Speaker 1: way undermine national security, although in our argument we think

266
00:14:35,590 --> 00:14:38,240
Speaker 1: this will enhance national security. We think that You know,

267
00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,680
Speaker 1: national security is about protecting the integrity of our political

268
00:14:41,740 --> 00:14:44,980
Speaker 1: system as well as the integrity of specific government information.

269
00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,750
Speaker 1: And clearly, free media is a part of the integrity

270
00:14:47,790 --> 00:14:51,090
Speaker 1: of that system. And we need to make sure that

271
00:14:51,150 --> 00:14:58,479
Speaker 1: it's safe and protected. And I think sometimes we need

272
00:14:58,700 --> 00:15:02,770
Speaker 1: the crisis. We need a moment like this. to draw

273
00:15:02,790 --> 00:15:06,570
Speaker 1: attention to the issues, to make Australians, not just politicians,

274
00:15:06,630 --> 00:15:10,050
Speaker 1: but Australians as well, recognise or understand that in fact

275
00:15:10,110 --> 00:15:14,050
Speaker 1: it's not as stable as we might imagine, that press

276
00:15:14,110 --> 00:15:17,810
Speaker 1: freedom is quite fragile in Australia and that, as we've

277
00:15:17,830 --> 00:15:22,600
Speaker 1: seen in the case of One Nation, politicians actually can

278
00:15:22,780 --> 00:15:27,600
Speaker 1: and have shut out independent news organisations from their reporting

279
00:15:27,660 --> 00:15:31,080
Speaker 1: and that if we don't step in to do something now,

280
00:15:31,870 --> 00:15:35,170
Speaker 1: then we run the risk of seeing it eroded over time.

281
00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:39,310
Speaker 3: Peter, thank you so much for your time.

282
00:15:39,750 --> 00:15:42,210
Speaker 1: It's been great to chat with.

283
00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:50,180
Speaker 6: You.

284
00:15:57,900 --> 00:16:00,640
Speaker 3: Also in the news... The federal government has launched an

285
00:16:00,780 --> 00:16:05,000
Speaker 3: urgent task force after an OpenAI artificial intelligence agent gained

286
00:16:05,140 --> 00:16:08,090
Speaker 3: unauthorised access to a Medicare statistics portal.

287
00:16:08,610 --> 00:16:11,670
Speaker 2: The agent accessed both public and non-public files in June,

288
00:16:11,770 --> 00:16:14,730
Speaker 2: although the government has described the breach as minor and

289
00:16:14,790 --> 00:16:17,990
Speaker 2: says no personal information is believed to have been accessed.

290
00:16:18,500 --> 00:16:20,920
Speaker 2: The task force will examine how the breach happened and

291
00:16:20,980 --> 00:16:25,220
Speaker 2: whether any offences were committed, with Anthony Albanese criticising OpenAI

292
00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:30,130
Speaker 2: for taking almost three months to notify the government. And

293
00:16:30,210 --> 00:16:34,200
Speaker 2: Australia's unemployment rate has risen to 4.6% in August, up

294
00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:35,920
Speaker 2: from 4.5%.

295
00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,400
Speaker 3: In July, its highest level since the pandemic.

296
00:16:38,860 --> 00:16:41,740
Speaker 2: Economists say the softer jobs market is unlikely to stop

297
00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:45,090
Speaker 2: the Reserve Bank raising interest rates next week, with inflation

298
00:16:45,230 --> 00:16:46,290
Speaker 2: still above target.

299
00:16:46,910 --> 00:16:47,590
Speaker 3: I'm Ruby Jones.

300
00:16:47,830 --> 00:16:48,530
Speaker 2: This is 7am.

301
00:16:48,770 --> 00:16:49,330
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening.

302
00:16:52,290 --> 00:16:54,770
Speaker 6: Thank you.