Speaker 1: I'll get a team. Welcome to another installment and the project, Craigsmind,
Speaker 1: I'm doctor Hannah is up there and thriving metropolis of Sydney.
Speaker 1: Apparently it's cold. She's sitting with the heater just blowing
Speaker 1: on her feet, just just wasting all the energy. No,
Speaker 1: see how I threw you under the bus straight away?
Speaker 2: I look bad.
Speaker 1: No you don't. You're just trying to stay warm. That's okay.
Speaker 2: My toes they're like icicles.
Speaker 3: My partner tells me every time I go to bed,
Speaker 3: my favorite place to put them is right under his thumb.
Speaker 3: And apparently they're like the ten toes of death because
Speaker 3: they're just little icicles. I'm sure a lot of other
Speaker 3: women can relate to that, or partners of of death.
Speaker 2: Really very cold.
Speaker 1: You you put your feet under his bum.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like when we're sitting on the couch, when we're
Speaker 3: in bed, like I'll just like put them underneath his
Speaker 3: body because they're nice and warm.
Speaker 2: I don't trust me.
Speaker 3: I'm not the only woman who does that. I am
Speaker 3: sure there are other women who do that.
Speaker 1: I'm absolutely sure. Now you sound a little bit sick today.
Speaker 1: Have you got the flu? Have you got COVID, are you.
Speaker 2: Oh no, I don't have the flu. I don't have COVID.
Speaker 2: Actually I have morning sickness.
Speaker 1: Oh my, oh oh. Now have I told you about
Speaker 1: the Craig bonus. I think I have.
Speaker 2: My name, my baby Craig. Yeah. I do like Harper.
Speaker 2: I like Harper a lot.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you what some of my I think about
Speaker 1: three and nothing to do with me, of course, But
Speaker 1: three or four of my friends have a guy who
Speaker 1: used to work for me, Sam Wood, who now is
Speaker 1: a megastar. Sam he was the bachelor, and he owns
Speaker 1: a company called twenty eight. And he's got a little
Speaker 1: girl called Harper. So of course, Prince and Brad and Carly,
Speaker 1: friends of mine who I'm the fit shop, they've got
Speaker 1: a little girl called Harper. It's funny how there's got
Speaker 1: nothing to do with your area of expertise or mine,
Speaker 1: But fuck it, isn't it funny? Isn't it funny how
Speaker 1: names go through kind of waves like where that's up
Speaker 1: and about you know, three or four or five or
Speaker 1: six years, and then it disappears.
Speaker 3: Well, what I'd really like is and this is a
Speaker 3: little bit tapp into the psychology, but I give my
Speaker 3: daughter a name, and we know it's a girl. We
Speaker 3: found out the other week. They're very exciting. I'd like
Speaker 3: to give her, like a unisex name that's not obviously
Speaker 3: a girl's name, because I want her to do her
Speaker 3: best in life and reach her best potential. And I
Speaker 3: don't know, Craig, if you can relate to this, probably not.
Speaker 3: But as a woman, I have found that having the
Speaker 3: name Hannah on reports or having a female name has
Speaker 3: been met with, you know, people who perhaps have not
Speaker 3: taken me as seriously had my name been a man's name.
Speaker 3: Perhaps that that what I've written to them may have
Speaker 3: been received a little better or a little you know,
Speaker 3: with a bit more acceptance with who am I?
Speaker 2: What do I know? I just I wonder sometimes if
Speaker 2: my life.
Speaker 3: Would have been a little easier if I had a
Speaker 3: unisex name.
Speaker 1: Wow, So if we could, if we could magic it
Speaker 1: into existence? What what well have you have you narrowed
Speaker 1: down a list be your daughter? Of course you might
Speaker 1: not even close.
Speaker 3: It's so hard to pick a name because it's like
Speaker 3: for the rest of her life she'll she'll have this.
Speaker 2: Name, and I want her to do well in life.
Speaker 3: Like I'm really I feel like I've joined this club
Speaker 3: finally where I'm like finally started to get you know,
Speaker 3: the parents who like they've had a child, they get
Speaker 3: certain things that I've done before I fell pregnant, and
Speaker 3: now I'm finally understanding the pressure of certain things, like oh,
Speaker 3: picking her name is actually really difficult. Yeah, surprisingly had.
Speaker 1: Now his his fun fact, I've got a friend. His
Speaker 1: name is Hannah.
Speaker 2: Oh really like Hannah, like like Hannah.
Speaker 1: Hannah, same as you h a n n ah, there
Speaker 1: you go.
Speaker 3: How is I wonder how he's found that. Does he
Speaker 3: like having a name that sort of uni set?
Speaker 1: I think? So he actually owns a restaurant in Brighton, Yeah,
Speaker 1: which is the next town long And and he's big dude,
Speaker 1: like big strong, not that it matters, but big, large, strong,
Speaker 1: alpha male called Hannah. So yeah, I wonder if when
Speaker 1: he signs things that people assume that he's I guess
Speaker 1: they would. I guess they would.
Speaker 3: Well, I actually I read about this study where you know,
Speaker 3: a male and female, like just case anecdote or really
Speaker 3: case study of where they swapped names in an organization
Speaker 3: and the gentleman wrote emails with her name at the bottom,
Speaker 3: and the woman wrote emails with his name at the bottom,
Speaker 3: and then he was doing the same things he'd always
Speaker 3: done with his sales and with his working and then
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, after swapping names, he started having
Speaker 3: difficulties with client interactions, people questioning him, people making his
Speaker 3: life hard, questioning his ability to give them the right advice,
Speaker 3: just just making the whole process a lot harder. And
Speaker 3: he realized the only thing that had changed was that
Speaker 3: he was signing off with his colleagues, you know, a
Speaker 3: female colleagues name instead of his own name, Whereas she
Speaker 3: had the opposite effect of people being easier to work with,
Speaker 3: process going much smoother, people accepting her opinion and her advice.
Speaker 3: So it was just kind of this really initial, very
Speaker 3: brief study, but it really captured me. So I couldn't help.
Speaker 3: But wonder, you know, how much impact does it have
Speaker 3: on our I suppose, our ability to work with others
Speaker 3: depending on how they perceive you or they've even met you.
Speaker 1: I wonder if that's that's really interesting, by the way,
Speaker 1: I wonder if that's consistent across industries, Like I wonder
Speaker 1: if some industries, in some industries or professions, women are
Speaker 1: held in higher esteem, more regard than men. I don't know.
Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, i'd like to think, so I'm
Speaker 3: in a female dominated industry, and I know there's a
Speaker 3: lot of female dominated industries like nursing and teaching and
Speaker 3: allied health for occupational therapy spee pathology flips around with physiotherapy.
Speaker 3: But interestingly, even in the female dominated industries, it is
Speaker 3: always the case that it's male dominated when it comes
Speaker 3: to the upper echelons within that industry, so they're more
Speaker 3: executive level. Suddenly flips around again, even though it's female dominated,
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, it's male dominated in the
Speaker 3: executive and senior roles. So, you know, I'd like to say,
Speaker 3: maybe it's different, but it hasn't necessarily been my experience
Speaker 3: that you know. I hope that my daughter would grow
Speaker 3: up in a world where her gender didn't matter and
Speaker 3: that her expertise was taken to be the most important,
Speaker 3: most important part of her Well, I.
Speaker 1: Mean that, you know, it is silly that I mean
Speaker 1: that that's still yes, but you're right, it still happens.
Speaker 1: It still hopefully it happens less. But does it still happen,
Speaker 1: you know, gender bias and all the different biases. Of course,
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you. I wanted to ask you today.
Speaker 1: I wanted to talk a little bit. Today. Won't be
Speaker 1: a long one because you're a little bit under the weather.
Speaker 1: Oh by the way, by the way, did you this?
Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm meant to ask this on air?
Speaker 1: Will will like was the baby girl? Was she intended?
Speaker 1: Or was this a happy?
Speaker 3: Oh god, that's a great question. Don't feel to this out.
Speaker 3: This is the best question. So she was a beautiful
Speaker 3: a little bit of both. So we we actually because
Speaker 3: I'm a little bit older and most this is we're
Speaker 3: getting into gender stuff a lot this episode, Craig, But
Speaker 3: most of my last ten years have been told I'll
Speaker 3: be well, you should be careful, you better get onto it,
Speaker 3: you better hurry up. You're not gonna be able to
Speaker 3: get pregnant, Like heaps and heaps of pressure increasingly of
Speaker 3: people saying, you know, like you need to think about
Speaker 3: being able to get pregnant, and what are you going
Speaker 3: to do if you can or you can't, et cetera.
Speaker 3: And freezing my eggs, like so much pressure to go
Speaker 3: check my fertility and freeze my eggs and see if
Speaker 3: my ovaries are working, et.
Speaker 2: Cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 3: And I've been pretty laid back and cool about the
Speaker 3: whole thing until more recent years where it did get
Speaker 3: to me and I started to get a little scared
Speaker 3: of my fertility being good enough, and also the fear
Speaker 3: that if something did happen and I couldn't fall pregnant,
Speaker 3: that it would somehow be my faults because I didn't
Speaker 3: I was selfish, and I didn't have children quickly enough
Speaker 3: and now you can't have children like this, this idea
Speaker 3: that it would have been my fault, and I don't know.
Speaker 3: Maybe that's other women can relate to that, maybe they
Speaker 3: can't relate to that, but that's just how I felt.
Speaker 3: So my partner and I are in a good place
Speaker 3: and we're really stable, really happy, just you know, the
Speaker 3: best life, and we sort of thought, well, if we
Speaker 3: have children that and we're really excited for that.
Speaker 2: So we weren't not trying. I think that's the phrase
Speaker 2: we use. We weren't not trying. And the first time
Speaker 2: we were not trying, weren't not trying was when we.
Speaker 3: Fell pregnant straight away, So there was there was no
Speaker 3: issues at all. Shout out to any women out there
Speaker 3: who were worried about their fertility. You know, it was
Speaker 3: all okay and everything went okay, and it's been a
Speaker 3: really smooth booth sailing. So it's something I don't hear
Speaker 3: a lot about with women and pregnancy. It's often a
Speaker 3: lot of fear lungering. So I think it's a nice
Speaker 3: good news story to hear about a woman who waited
Speaker 3: a little bit longer and she was okay.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's it's as much as I can understand it,
Speaker 1: I understand it. And yeah, a lot of friends who
Speaker 1: have been in a similar boat. I've got a question
Speaker 1: for you, like when when you find out you're pregnant
Speaker 1: and you're becoming This is not the episode we plan
Speaker 1: to do, by the way, everyone, but fuck it, here
Speaker 1: we are. Do you think like when you when you
Speaker 1: when you get pregnant for the first time, as you
Speaker 1: kind of said, like a whole new world opens up.
Speaker 1: Now you're thinking about things that you've never had to
Speaker 1: think about, you know, like, oh my god, there's a
Speaker 1: lot of pressure choosing a name because what name that
Speaker 1: could create positive or negative outcomes that could influence people
Speaker 1: to treat her a certain way, or maybe you know,
Speaker 1: like I've never really thought about the impact that a
Speaker 1: name would have in that sense, But it totally makes sense.
Speaker 1: But when you broaden that back and you think about
Speaker 1: you being a mum, do you think about what are
Speaker 1: some of the things that this is a This is
Speaker 1: a tough question, right, this is a vulnerable question. But
Speaker 1: what are some of the things about you that you
Speaker 1: don't want your daughter to have?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 1: My skin like traits, habits thinking like with me, if
Speaker 1: I had a boy, there'd be so many things that
Speaker 1: I do that I would not want him to do
Speaker 1: or be Like, is there anything where you think, fuck,
Speaker 1: I hope she doesn't turn out like me in this.
Speaker 3: Regard, Yes, Craig crippling anxiety. Really hope doesn't inherit that
Speaker 3: I have, like terrible anxiety. And it's you know, there's
Speaker 3: all that old cliche like, oh, you became a psychologist
Speaker 3: because you have your own problems. Maybe maybe that's true,
Speaker 3: But I grew up with like terrible, terrible anxiety. And
Speaker 3: my parents had a we had five kids in the family,
Speaker 3: and like they were not the not the.
Speaker 4: Wealthiest of people. In fact, they're pretty poor people.
Speaker 3: A lot of my life and my dad was you know,
Speaker 3: went through a lot of trauma growing up himself, so
Speaker 3: he you know, he had there was a lot of
Speaker 3: intergenerational kind of stuff that affected us. And I grew
Speaker 3: up with like really really quite significant anxiety around you know,
Speaker 3: just trying to be.
Speaker 2: Good enough and people please.
Speaker 3: And it took me, you know, really like a good
Speaker 3: ten years over the last ten years to try to
Speaker 3: get to the bottom of why do I keep putting
Speaker 3: myself out? Why do I keep going to the fawn response?
Speaker 3: You know, we talked a lot about that in our
Speaker 3: little Your Brain in a Nutshell series like Freeze for Flight,
Speaker 3: Freeze and fawn response. And I'm definitely a Freeze and
Speaker 3: a fawn person, Like I just won't defend myself or
Speaker 3: I will appease others and give and give and give
Speaker 3: until the point of total exhaustion and burnout, and all
Speaker 3: while sitting at home kind of shaking in my boots
Speaker 3: because I'm so terribly anxious about it all. So that's
Speaker 3: taken a long time to kind of work on, and
Speaker 3: I constantly have to work when I was anxious. Just today,
Speaker 3: like I see a psychologist myself just for like maintenance
Speaker 3: of mental health.
Speaker 2: You know, I've been seeing a.
Speaker 3: Psychologist for years, and I think I'm going to practice
Speaker 3: what you preach. I'm a psychologist and I see a psychologist,
Speaker 3: so you know, I'm on top of it.
Speaker 4: Compared to what I was when I was, you know,
Speaker 4: in my early twenties.
Speaker 3: I don't have panic attacks or you know, as bad
Speaker 3: episode of anxiety, doesn't control me like it used to.
Speaker 3: But you know, that's something I think. I think that
Speaker 3: comes down to how you raise a child. And I
Speaker 3: want to make sure you know I'm going to raise
Speaker 3: her in a way where she knows her worth and
Speaker 3: she knows that it's okay to say no, and it's
Speaker 3: okay to put herself first, and that that's not selfish,
Speaker 3: it's actually good practice so that you have enough in
Speaker 3: the tank to do other things in life. But definitely
Speaker 3: I don't. Yeah, that's the thing I don't want her
Speaker 3: to inherit about my personality, I guess, And I don't
Speaker 3: want that to impact her in my parenting.
Speaker 2: What about you tell me want something? Would you like
Speaker 2: to have children? Are you going to have children? Can
Speaker 2: I ask that?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: Fuck? Imagine really no another verse. Look if I was younger, maybe,
Speaker 1: but and and we've I haven't really spoken about this
Speaker 1: on the show. But I I've been told one thousand
Speaker 1: times you'd be a good dad. I don't know if
Speaker 1: I would, though, I don't know if I would. But anyway,
Speaker 1: it doesn't it doesn't matter that that horses that gate
Speaker 1: has closed. But in a hypothetical, in a parallel universe,
Speaker 1: I would, Yeah, I would want my kid to have
Speaker 1: better self esteem than I had, and two to have
Speaker 1: more confidence. I mean my mom and dad. You know,
Speaker 1: it's hard because one of the things that we do is,
Speaker 1: you know, we expect our parents to be a certain way,
Speaker 1: and it's usually like I think, or you should be
Speaker 1: more like me dad, almost right. But the funny thing
Speaker 1: is my mum and dad. And I don't want to
Speaker 1: bore my listeners who've heard this too much, but my
Speaker 1: mum and dad grew up in the Second World War.
Speaker 1: They were both born in nineteen thirty nine, so it's
Speaker 1: a long time ago. And you know, they weren't raised
Speaker 1: in a Disney movie, you know, and life was tough
Speaker 1: and mum was Mum's mum died giving birth to her,
Speaker 1: so mum never had a mum, right, So you know,
Speaker 1: back in the days when it wasn't as safe now
Speaker 1: as it is now. My dad was one of six
Speaker 1: boys and eight people in a family, you know, six boys, depression,
Speaker 1: very little money, you know, and so then I grew
Speaker 1: up in compared to them, you know, luxury compared to them,
Speaker 1: So there wasn't but with even though I had everything
Speaker 1: that I needed practically it, you know, there was probably
Speaker 1: stuff that, through no real fault of theirs, that I
Speaker 1: didn't get emotionally, I guess. And but my mum and
Speaker 1: dad are really good parents, and for what they knew
Speaker 1: and what they experienced and what they had to work with,
Speaker 1: I think they did a really good job. And so
Speaker 1: but for me, I would like to, you know, be
Speaker 1: if I was a dad, I guess invest a lot
Speaker 1: more emotionally than I got, like an emotion you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: like things are good, like a bike's good, school's good,
Speaker 1: bed's good, warm, dinner's good, all things that we absolutely need.
Speaker 1: And they did it, you know, a great job. But
Speaker 1: because my dad never really received lots of affection or
Speaker 1: positive endorsement or you know, reinforcement or you know, like
Speaker 1: he wasn't great at that despite the fact that he
Speaker 1: loved me, and he would show that he loved me
Speaker 1: in other ways, but I think that, you know, I
Speaker 1: think a bit of that, you know, but it's hard.
Speaker 1: It's like, I actually, wow, now I'm opening the door.
Speaker 1: But I like, I had a revelation one day, and
Speaker 1: it was it was on a day I was talking
Speaker 1: to one of my uncles and I realized when I
Speaker 1: was talking to one of my uncles, my dad's brother,
Speaker 1: I realized that I hadn't really considered my dad as
Speaker 1: a child, as a boy. And then I tried to
Speaker 1: put myself in my dad's childhood because my childhood was
Speaker 1: a fucking dream compared to his. And then I went, ah,
Speaker 1: considering what he grew up in, which wasn't horrible, but
Speaker 1: it wasn't far from horrible. Right then he turned out great.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: But when I look through the Craig window, I can
Speaker 1: be very critical and very judgmental and all of that.
Speaker 1: But when I get off my high horse and I
Speaker 1: start to you know, there's a you know, there's an
Speaker 1: idea in psychology that you're probably well aware of called
Speaker 1: false consensus effect. A false consensus effect basically, Yeah, So
Speaker 1: what it means is we think that other people think
Speaker 1: like us. Ah, yes, so I think Ron should think
Speaker 1: like me. And I expect him to because I'm right,
Speaker 1: and how can he not think like me? And so
Speaker 1: you know, and that for me, lucky, I'm doing a
Speaker 1: PhD in self awareness, essentially self awareness. That for me
Speaker 1: was a real expansion of my reality in my mind
Speaker 1: and an expansion of my awareness and humility because I
Speaker 1: realized I was actually the problem, not my dad. I
Speaker 1: was expecting my dad to be the way that I wanted,
Speaker 1: rather than just expecting my dad to be my dad
Speaker 1: how he is. You know, so like I think that's
Speaker 1: one of the ever present challenges. Sorry I'm talking too
Speaker 1: much today, this is your show, but I really think that,
Speaker 1: you know, theory of mind, trying to understand and not
Speaker 1: agree with, not endorse, but just understand other people's mind
Speaker 1: and their thoughts. It's such a fucking interpersonal superpower.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, it's funny because I you know, I do
Speaker 3: a lot of work with autism. I do a lot
Speaker 3: of work with your adversity. And you know, you're so
Speaker 3: true like theory of mind, that that word. Hopefully you
Speaker 3: guys have heard that before. I'm sure you would have
Speaker 3: talked about it before. But your ability to have empathy,
Speaker 3: your ability to put yourself in other people's shoes, your
Speaker 3: ability to not be ego centric anymore it's all that
Speaker 3: are being all about me. It becomes I understand there
Speaker 3: are other people, and there's that shift that happens around
Speaker 3: five or six, you know, in the developmental stages when
Speaker 3: you can you can recognize that you're not the only
Speaker 3: person on the planet and that mommy and Daddy have
Speaker 3: feelings and other people have feelings as well, and you're right, Like,
Speaker 3: it seems like such a spectrum of like why do
Speaker 3: some people get almost like this hyper aware you know,
Speaker 3: theory of mind where they're too aware other people, they're
Speaker 3: hyper sensitive to other people.
Speaker 2: And to a crippling degree where they're.
Speaker 4: People pleases and they can't stop.
Speaker 3: Versus the other end of the spectrum, where people are
Speaker 3: almost like you know, you could say, I've met some
Speaker 3: narcissistic people in my time. I've met some people who
Speaker 3: have clear personality disorder issues, but I've also met people who,
Speaker 3: you know, they're almost like on a genetic level, they
Speaker 3: are predisposed to lack the theory of mine because of
Speaker 3: a you know, an autism for example, And it's like
Speaker 3: where do you fall on that spectrum? And sometimes it
Speaker 3: comes down to or how were you raised and what
Speaker 3: were you taught was normal not normal?
Speaker 2: And what was love?
Speaker 3: And did your dad get cuddles when he was younger?
Speaker 3: Did he talk about his emotions when he was younger?
Speaker 3: So many, so many men from the generation above you
Speaker 3: and even your generation too.
Speaker 4: Craig would not talk about feelings.
Speaker 3: That is not acceptable to talk about feelings, like imagine
Speaker 3: telling your dad to go and see a psychologist.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. You know what's interesting about my audience is
Speaker 1: that it's seventy percent women. And it's not like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's it's and when I run workshops, like public workshops,
Speaker 1: it's even more. It's sometimes it's like I did a
Speaker 1: last time I did a workshop at Deacon University in Melbourne.
Speaker 1: We had six hundred and seventy people, and I would say,
Speaker 1: I would say there were six hundred and twenty women. Wow,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah in the rooms. Yeah yeah. And not because
Speaker 1: I mean, which is interesting, because it's not like, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm talking about in inverted commas, women's issues, or I'm
Speaker 1: Brad Pitt or I'm I think. It's just the fact
Speaker 1: that I love talking about the human experience and I
Speaker 1: love opening all the doors and I'm happy to be
Speaker 1: vulnerable and talk about my numerous flaws and you know,
Speaker 1: and I and for whatever reason, I'm comfortable in that.
Speaker 1: In fact, I kind of almost thrive in that because
Speaker 1: it's just like to me, because that's just real. And
Speaker 1: some guys, uh are like, I'm getting more and more men,
Speaker 1: which is great talking about feelings and talking about shame
Speaker 1: and talking about you know, acknowledging shit that is just
Speaker 1: part of who we are, rather than going not not
Speaker 1: not don't want to talk about it, but yeah, it's
Speaker 1: it's a really interesting that whole idea of trying to
Speaker 1: understand someone else's version of right now without judging it,
Speaker 1: without saying, oh it's your right or you're wrong or
Speaker 1: you know, but just that not so much putting a
Speaker 1: value on it, but just having, you know, that whole
Speaker 1: idea of seek first to understand and then to be understood.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I wonder why it is that? I mean,
Speaker 3: do you have any theories about when I could? I
Speaker 3: can postulate, but do.
Speaker 4: You, as a man, have any theories about why is it?
Speaker 3: Because I see this time and time and time again
Speaker 3: with mental health and women in abundance who are seeking
Speaker 3: assistance guidance improvement, you know, journey to greater self awareness
Speaker 3: and greater mental health. And there's this almost like as
Speaker 3: actually as you describe this huge seventy percent split with
Speaker 3: the uptake of men doing the equivalent, Like, why is
Speaker 3: it that they struggle to engage with mental health even
Speaker 3: though this clear recognition that men's mental health is almost
Speaker 3: more severely affected than women's with suicide rates and things.
Speaker 4: Like that, Why are men not engaging?
Speaker 1: Whye, Well, there's an overarching reason that we can then
Speaker 1: break down, and the overarching reason is fear, right, Like,
Speaker 1: they don't because they're scared, and you go, scared of what,
Speaker 1: Scared of looking weak, scared scared of being embarrassed, scared
Speaker 1: of not belonging to the tribe, the bloke tribe. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, like I can't say who, but I do
Speaker 1: work with a few groups and in some groups that
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be too hard to figure out what I'm
Speaker 1: talking about. You do not want to put your hand
Speaker 1: up for mental health. And you know what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: there are some groups that you because if you admit
Speaker 1: that you have mental health issues in some groups, that's
Speaker 1: actually going to hurt your career. So While some organizations
Speaker 1: are outwardly going, oh, we're all about the mental health
Speaker 1: of our the practical reality behind the curtain is that
Speaker 1: if you actually do say I need help, I've got
Speaker 1: mental health issues in some places, that's going to put
Speaker 1: the brakes on your advancement of your career. Right. So,
Speaker 1: I think the overarching answer is they're scared of stuff,
Speaker 1: and the stuff is I don't want my career to
Speaker 1: come to a grinding halt. I don't want people to
Speaker 1: think I'm weak. I don't want to be embarrassed. I
Speaker 1: don't want to be ejected from my grid. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: the irony is it's actually like if you do get
Speaker 1: ejected from that group, will fuck that group? Like that's
Speaker 1: not the group you want to be in. I like,
Speaker 1: I love hugging men. I love sitting with a man
Speaker 1: who's crying. I love vulnerability because it's fucking true, it's
Speaker 1: all there anyway. All we're doing is, all we're doing
Speaker 1: is opening the door. Like all of the guys who
Speaker 1: never cry, who never talk about their feelings, who never
Speaker 1: and I'm not being critical of them, but it's not
Speaker 1: that they don't have emotions, it's just that they won't
Speaker 1: open that door because there's a social penalty for that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, perceive social penalty, yes, But I also wonder, like
Speaker 3: how many women who'd be listening who wouldn't love, you know,
Speaker 3: absolutely jump with the chance for their partner or their
Speaker 3: brother or their best mate or whatever, whoever it was,
Speaker 3: to share something deeper with them and to explore something deep.
Speaker 3: And I often have male friends who, funnily enough, it's
Speaker 3: interesting you mentioned like in certain spheres of their life,
Speaker 3: men not being able to share how they're going emotionally
Speaker 3: or say anything about having an emotional struggle because god forbid,
Speaker 3: you know, they're a doctor or a policeman or a
Speaker 3: fireman or whatever, and they get fired as a result
Speaker 3: of it.
Speaker 2: But in higacy and behind closed doors.
Speaker 3: In terms of what they then do with themselves, like
Speaker 3: my mental health journey, just my own perspective has all
Speaker 3: been personal, Like I go and see.
Speaker 4: A psychologist private aside, not to do with work.
Speaker 3: That's my own self journey into becoming a better version
Speaker 3: of Hannah. But what are the men do in their
Speaker 3: private life like to then improve how they're going? And
Speaker 3: is infiltrating the private life as well? Like can men
Speaker 3: talk to other men or other women in the at
Speaker 3: least in their private life, or are they just bottling
Speaker 3: it up everywhere?
Speaker 2: I don't know. Tell me, Craig, you're around.
Speaker 1: Well, the answer is yes, they can, but maybe even
Speaker 1: the better question is do they? And the answer is
Speaker 1: sometimes some men sometimes. Look it is it is getting better,
Speaker 1: but it is slower than I would like it to be.
Speaker 1: But you know, it's like this, This is a very
Speaker 1: personal story. But my training partner Mark, lovingly known as
Speaker 1: the Crab. I don't know if you know this story,
Speaker 1: but four and a half years ago we were training
Speaker 1: at the gym and he he had a cardiac arrest.
Speaker 1: Oh god, you're dead, absolutely dead for seventeen minutes, right,
Speaker 1: And so I worked on him and all of that,
Speaker 1: and fortunately he came back seventeen minutes later. But it's
Speaker 1: funny when you have this experience and he's an alpha male,
Speaker 1: he's an ex pro body, he's fucking massive. He's you know, like,
Speaker 1: if you're ever going to get stuck on an island,
Speaker 1: get stuck with him. He'll build you a city by Tuesday. Right.
Speaker 1: I'm about as handy as an ashtray on a motorbike.
Speaker 1: I'm fucking shit, right, he's a many man man, right,
Speaker 1: but we had this. It doesn't get much more intimate
Speaker 1: than you giving one of your best friend's mouth to
Speaker 1: mouth CPR and keeping him alive until the ambos come.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: Well, that just opened the door and hopefully people don't
Speaker 1: have to go that through that for the door to open.
Speaker 1: But for me, well one where you know, we're still
Speaker 1: you know, we just talk shit and hang out. We're
Speaker 1: mates and we train every day. But it was interesting
Speaker 1: for me because in that moment where I'm on the gym,
Speaker 1: he's on his back dead. When he fell, he bit
Speaker 1: through his tongue, so there's blood coming out of his mouth.
Speaker 1: I won't give you too much more of a description,
Speaker 1: but I could, and it's not pretty. But in that
Speaker 1: moment where I'm trying to save my friend's life and
Speaker 1: my mouth's on his mouth and there's blood everywhere, and
Speaker 1: it's fucking you know, there's nothing in me going, oh
Speaker 1: what does this look like? Oh my god? You know,
Speaker 1: there's none of that bullshit present, all of that, all
Speaker 1: of that, you know, Oh this is not cool on
Speaker 1: my ego? Oh fuck, what would people think if they
Speaker 1: saw that? Like it all vanishes, it's all fucking rubbish, right,
Speaker 1: And I don't know. And I've had a few things,
Speaker 1: like a few like some of my best friends have died,
Speaker 1: you know. I had a really good friend of mine
Speaker 1: die about four months ago, you know, and you know,
Speaker 1: left behind two young children. And it's like when you
Speaker 1: go through and I'm on no level of victim. I'm blessed.
Speaker 1: My life is amazing. There's no self pity here. But
Speaker 1: when you go through that with other people, for me anyway,
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't have time for me. I do
Speaker 1: not person I have time for all the bullshit, Like
Speaker 1: if I love you, you'll know if you might like.
Speaker 1: My best mate in the world is Vin. We talk
Speaker 1: on the phone. Every time we talk, we tell each
Speaker 1: other we love each other every time. And he's a
Speaker 1: man's man. He's an electrician. He's a blokey bloke. Every
Speaker 1: time I tell him I love him. Every time I
Speaker 1: hug him because I don't know what the future holds,
Speaker 1: and I don't want to go fuck. I wish I
Speaker 1: had oh if only I had a It's just I
Speaker 1: don't want to let my bullshit get in the way.
Speaker 1: And I think us men and I'm generalizing, not all
Speaker 1: men but some men sometimes let their bullshit get in
Speaker 1: the way when they actually love deeply, they love their mates,
Speaker 1: you know, And I just think, and they love their
Speaker 1: family and they let you know, and I just think
Speaker 1: that we don't need to be walking around every eight
Speaker 1: minutes telling everyone that. But I just think it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's slowly shifting, but it'd be good if there was
Speaker 1: a little bit of a hurry on.
Speaker 2: And it's ironic.
Speaker 3: Actually, the irony is like it's painful at times and
Speaker 3: laughable at other times, but the irony of the ultimate
Speaker 3: you know that from what I can guess, and I'm
Speaker 3: not a man, so I am just guessing. But like this,
Speaker 3: this hierarchy, this pyramid, this elite at the top, what
Speaker 3: you're aiming for of being the perfect guy, the perfect man,
Speaker 3: you know, and the perfect man's loyal, and the perfect
Speaker 3: man is honorable, and the perfect man has integrity, and
Speaker 3: he's there for you, and he's never down, he's never upset.
Speaker 4: He does everything because he's the perfect man.
Speaker 3: And the irony of that model is to actually be
Speaker 3: that guy who is there for people, loyal, has integrity,
Speaker 3: who's not bothered, who for the most part has good
Speaker 3: you know, stable mental health and healthy relationships with other
Speaker 3: people is not through that pathway. It's actually through the
Speaker 3: pathway that often gets pushed away, which is acknowledging feelings,
Speaker 3: talking about feelings, feeling validated that you've got those feel
Speaker 3: and normalized for having those very human emotions, and then
Speaker 3: processing them so that you can then be a great
Speaker 3: friend and a great partner, and a great lover and
Speaker 3: a great brother and whatever else you.
Speaker 2: Want to be.
Speaker 3: But it's so ironic to me that the way we're
Speaker 3: walking towards that ultimate goal is actually probably the one
Speaker 3: thing that's pushing you further away from that goal.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think you know, here's the thing, right,
Speaker 1: is that compassion and humility and vulnerability can coexist with
Speaker 1: whatever the fuck being a man means. You know. It's like,
Speaker 1: if I'm out and about and someone threatens a friend
Speaker 1: of mine, I'm like, I will do what I need
Speaker 1: to do to protect my friend. Do you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? I don't want to be in a fight.
Speaker 1: I don't want to confront it. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: being vulnerable and compassionate doesn't mean you're weak, doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that you're letting people dominate you. You know, there's still
Speaker 1: a time, there's a you know, there's a time for
Speaker 1: you know, control aggression. Hopefully not often, but if somebody,
Speaker 1: you know, I went into the city, it was probably
Speaker 1: ten years ago now, and this just random guy grabbed
Speaker 1: my stretch, stepped in front of us and grabs my
Speaker 1: mum on the arm. Like my mom at the time
Speaker 1: was seventy four, right. Oh, needless to say, he wished
Speaker 1: he hadn't done that, and he was just some stranger
Speaker 1: that he wanted, you know, and I didn't. I'm just like,
Speaker 1: that's not okay, that's not you know. I'm like and
Speaker 1: I'm like, what the fuck are you doing? And you know,
Speaker 1: but so but without being the alpha male, there's there's
Speaker 1: a time to go, hey, that that behavior is unacceptable.
Speaker 1: I need to protect someone. I hope that I never
Speaker 1: get in an altercation ever again in my life. I
Speaker 1: don't want to do that. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: we can't just grab my mother. There's a consequence for that.
Speaker 1: That's not okay, you know. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: you know, do I want to hurt anyone? Of course
Speaker 1: not do. I understand that that guy's probably got mental
Speaker 1: health issues, of course, so you know, but at the
Speaker 1: same time we you know, there's this there's this duality
Speaker 1: of still being able to be a strong male or female,
Speaker 1: strong when required, mildly terrifying. My mum's fucking terrifying at times.
Speaker 1: For a woman that's about three foot tall, she's terrifying,
Speaker 1: you know. But also that can coexist with kindness and
Speaker 1: compassion and empathy and awareness. You know, it doesn't have
Speaker 1: to be one or the other.
Speaker 3: That's so interesting actually, just as a reflection, and hopefully
Speaker 3: you don't mind me making this reflection, but it's so interesting,
Speaker 3: you know, when we tapped into the part of the
Speaker 3: conversation where we really talked about vulnerability and you know,
Speaker 3: this being the perfect guy, the perfect man, and then
Speaker 3: vulnerability and then the memory that came up for you.
Speaker 3: Because so for me, I was talking in my sphere
Speaker 3: and my mind, my conceptualization as a woman.
Speaker 4: I was thinking about mental health and talking about feelings
Speaker 4: and therapy, and it didn't even cross my mind, not
Speaker 4: for a second, did the need for sometimes being assertive
Speaker 4: and aggressive and protecting your loved ones.
Speaker 3: That didn't even come into my head at all, not
Speaker 3: even to my conceptualization at all. That occurred to me
Speaker 3: and but for you that when we tapped into vulnerability,
Speaker 3: a memory that came up for you was protecting your
Speaker 3: mother from an assault. And I just feel like I
Speaker 3: need to report and reflect on that that those two
Speaker 3: comments about being vulnerable was then so intrinsically tired with
Speaker 3: a memory of the time you had to defend your mum.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, like hit the practical reality
Speaker 1: two right, Like life's not a theory, Life's not a
Speaker 1: podcast with Hannah and Craig, Like life's a messy shitfest.
Speaker 1: And you know, I'll give you another story. One day,
Speaker 1: about three years ago, I live on a main street
Speaker 1: and I heard this this child screaming and crying. I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my god. And I went outside and all I
Speaker 1: saw was a man, my size man hitting a child.
Speaker 2: Oh gosh wow.
Speaker 1: I went fucking nuts. And then he turned to me
Speaker 1: and he goes, it's my it's my kid, right, And
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not going to stand there while you
Speaker 1: the child was four or five. I'm not going to
Speaker 1: just let you. I don't care whose child it is.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to stand by while you assault a child.
Speaker 1: I said, if you hit if you hit him once more,
Speaker 1: I will fucking knock you out?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 1: What? And he stopped. And I don't want to do that.
Speaker 1: And I'm not trying to sound anything, but there's something
Speaker 1: in me that Look, there are times, unfortunately the practical
Speaker 1: reality of the human experiences, sometimes you need to intervene.
Speaker 1: Hopefully it's hardly ever. And of course I didn't hit him,
Speaker 1: and of course I didn't want to hit him, but
Speaker 1: if he had kept hurting that child, I would have
Speaker 1: hurt him. Yeah, And you go, trust me when that's happening.
Speaker 1: You want somebody with some controlled aggression. You want somebody
Speaker 1: who will get in the way. There was a guy
Speaker 1: called Sir Edmund Burke, and he said, all that's necessary
Speaker 1: for evil to triumph is for good men slash women
Speaker 1: to do nothing.
Speaker 3: That's so, you know, that's actually brought a memory up
Speaker 3: for me, that's brought which I'm going to share. It's
Speaker 3: a bit of a vulnerable memory, but I remember seeing that.
Speaker 3: I remember seeing you know. It was years ago and
Speaker 3: I was standing in Newtown in Melbourne, in Sydney, and
Speaker 3: I was waiting to go into an appointment. I was,
Speaker 3: funnily enough, I was going to get some singing bowl
Speaker 3: singing bowl sound therapy, which is amazing.
Speaker 2: We'll talk about it another day.
Speaker 3: But I was waiting outside to go into this like
Speaker 3: this kind of therapeutic, lovely spiritual session, sitting on the street,
Speaker 3: and you know, you just people watch, observe people like
Speaker 3: Sticky Beacon. And I was watching this couple in a
Speaker 3: car right beside me, and they were having a bit
Speaker 3: of a heated discussion, and then I watched the partner,
Speaker 3: the man in the car, strike the woman like he
Speaker 3: hit her.
Speaker 2: He hit her in the face.
Speaker 3: And then I stopped talking and looked down and then.
Speaker 4: You know, and then you know what he did? Can
Speaker 4: you be emotional talking about it? He looked up at
Speaker 4: me and he made eye contact and he saw that
Speaker 4: I had seen it, and he smiled.
Speaker 2: He's smart.
Speaker 3: He smiled because he knew because I stood there and
Speaker 3: I was like, oh my god, I can't believe what
Speaker 3: he's just done. And so many thoughts popped in my head,
Speaker 3: like go to the car, open the door, pull her out,
Speaker 3: like call the police, like what do you do? And
Speaker 3: he just like he just smiled at me because he knew.
Speaker 3: There's nothing you can do, sweetheart. Yea, he was so right,
Speaker 3: because he's this big massive guy on this tiny little thing.
Speaker 3: He's in a car about to drive off, and I'm
Speaker 3: sitting there on the side of the road, like what
Speaker 3: am I going to do? How do I protect this woman?
Speaker 3: And in my mind I was like, get out of
Speaker 3: the car, get out of the car.
Speaker 4: And she stayed in the car and I stood there
Speaker 4: like just kind of paralyzed and frozen for another good
Speaker 4: five minutes after they drove off, going what should I do?
Speaker 3: Should I call someone? Will they believe me? If I
Speaker 3: call the police? Will they listen?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 4: And it was a horrible it was a horrible situation
Speaker 4: where I'm really ashamed to say I did nothing.
Speaker 2: I didn't do anything because I didn't, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean.
Speaker 3: It was it was at and at the time I
Speaker 3: was like, yeah, if I was a strong man, maybe
Speaker 3: I would have chosen a different path there.
Speaker 4: And I still I still it was years ago. I
Speaker 4: still think about that woman and wonder where is she now?
Speaker 1: Mhmm. You don't have to feel ashamed. I mean for
Speaker 1: you to put your you would have then it depending
Speaker 1: on I mean, probably that guy's a psychopath. Probably like
Speaker 1: if he's belting a woman then smiling at you, he's
Speaker 1: a psychopath. Yeah, yeah, that's I mean, these are just
Speaker 1: that's you know, it's like, that's what I said. Life's
Speaker 1: not a conversation with you mean, it's not a theory,
Speaker 1: it's not I mean, how many how many women have
Speaker 1: been on the end of that kind of horrendous treatment
Speaker 1: And this is this is what I'm saying. You know,
Speaker 1: sometimes all that's necessary for evil to triumph is for well,
Speaker 1: the original saying is for good men to do nothing.
Speaker 1: And it's like, I fucking you know when you tell
Speaker 1: me that story, that makes me mad, not mad that
Speaker 1: you didn't do anything, but just like and I hate it.
Speaker 1: I hate it that some evil, fucking pricks do that.
Speaker 1: And and but there is a that's why, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like I hate war, right, but we need an army,
Speaker 1: we need a defense force. Like what like literally, what
Speaker 1: do they do? Will they? You know, depending on the context,
Speaker 1: sometimes we send people overseas to kill people. I mean
Speaker 1: like it's it's like in a perfect world that we
Speaker 1: don't have but if we did perfect world, there'd be
Speaker 1: none of that. But that ain't where we live. And
Speaker 1: while we don't want to be negative, we do want
Speaker 1: to be practical and that the truth is, like, especially
Speaker 1: right now in Melbourne and nearly every night on the news,
Speaker 1: there are stories of home invasions where people are, you know,
Speaker 1: people older people are being robbed, bashed, threatened, periodically killed.
Speaker 1: You know that recently in Sydney, that horrible event in
Speaker 1: the shopping center. You know, I mean, like, let's hope
Speaker 1: that that doesn't happen again, but we all know that
Speaker 1: that is a version of that is going to happen again.
Speaker 1: Not necessarily that same as that or similar, but like,
Speaker 1: this is it. We want to be positive, we want
Speaker 1: to be loving, we want to be empathetic, but we
Speaker 1: also need to be fucking prepared and we also need
Speaker 1: to be practical and realistic.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 1: And I say this stuff to people all of the time.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, don't assume, don't assume it's going
Speaker 1: to be okay. Don't also assume it's going to be
Speaker 1: not okay. But you know, yeah, it's I don't know
Speaker 1: how we got to this place, but.
Speaker 3: No, I think it's like I'm having a daughter myself,
Speaker 3: and I think about these things now where I go
Speaker 3: give me I'm that's saying like punching up like and
Speaker 3: they say it with jokes and humor, like don't punch,
Speaker 3: don't punch down, you know, but it's okay for you
Speaker 3: punch across or punch up, like I think I see
Speaker 3: that with like mental health and awareness like you. You know,
Speaker 3: women can't be expected to educate men like we can't.
Speaker 2: We can't.
Speaker 3: It's like the dangers for us to for me to
Speaker 3: say that's not okay, that's not okay for you to
Speaker 3: do that, the risk of me very real risk of
Speaker 3: me being physically assaulted as a result of trying to intervene.
Speaker 3: But then, you know, men teaching other men. You know,
Speaker 3: don't speak to her like that, don't don't make jokes
Speaker 3: about her like that, don't treat her like that, don't
Speaker 3: talk about her like that, or you know, make it's
Speaker 3: okay to talk about your feelings.
Speaker 2: It's okay to talk about you.
Speaker 3: Know, don't call him that, don't call him a pansy
Speaker 3: for talking about it, like men teaching other men, because
Speaker 3: you are physically stronger, and you are you do have that,
Speaker 3: you know, physical ability to kind of be on the
Speaker 3: same level as a fellow, as a mate and say
Speaker 3: to him when something's not okay and when something is okay,
Speaker 3: with not no fear, because there's definitely always going to
Speaker 3: be fear, but certainly less fear than perhaps a woman
Speaker 3: would or a child would standing up to a male
Speaker 3: to say that wasn't okay. I think that's why you know,
Speaker 3: you're saying of what you were talking about with the
Speaker 3: saying of when good men stand and do nothing, that
Speaker 3: to me, I see, Yeah, good men need to stand
Speaker 3: up to other men to help educate them about better
Speaker 3: mental health and better treatment of everyone.
Speaker 4: And that to me is where I can see the future.
Speaker 3: When men teach other men, that's when things will start
Speaker 3: to change because I think they'll listen.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well hopefully who knows, Hopefully one person will hear
Speaker 1: this that needed to hear it, and maybe there'll be
Speaker 1: a you know. I also I also want to say
Speaker 1: that not all men are bad men.
Speaker 2: Of course not.
Speaker 1: There are a lot of great men. I don't put
Speaker 1: myself in the great men category. But you know, not
Speaker 1: every not every man is a bad man. Not every
Speaker 1: man is doing bad things, not every man is violent.
Speaker 1: Not every man, you know.
Speaker 4: So.
Speaker 1: We need to acknowledge what's going on. But we don't
Speaker 1: want to throw all men under the bus.
Speaker 3: Because I feel bad to those good men as well,
Speaker 3: because I do wonder if it's a little bit like,
Speaker 3: you know, eighty percent of the work is being done
Speaker 3: by twenty percent of the of the army sort of
Speaker 3: you know, like too much for the individuals like yourself
Speaker 3: to be working, you know, on like mental health and
Speaker 3: supporting men.
Speaker 2: And it's you know, one voice among millions of other men.
Speaker 2: Like it's it's hard. It's so hard.
Speaker 3: It's that collective effort that's needed so that not one
Speaker 3: person has to constantly be the one voice that stands up.
Speaker 4: It's so much voices.
Speaker 1: I think. Also, you know, like I feel like I
Speaker 1: have a bit of a responsibility sometimes because I have
Speaker 1: a platform and I'm a bloke to go, hey, blokes,
Speaker 1: let's let's talk about our stuff. Let's be honest and
Speaker 1: raw and all of those things. But also at times
Speaker 1: sometimes I've said to lots of men over the years,
Speaker 1: you know, that's not okay, Like that thing that you're
Speaker 1: doing not okay, not okay, it's not okay. And also
Speaker 1: you know, even for myself, not in not in terms
Speaker 1: of like you know, hurting people, but you know, just
Speaker 1: like one of the challenges I think if we're really
Speaker 1: serious about not only helping others, but really helping ourselves. Right,
Speaker 1: I have to acknowledge that I fuck up. I have
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that I've got an ego. I have to
Speaker 1: acknowledge that I make bad decisions, and I need to
Speaker 1: work on me because I'm definitely not the high watermark
Speaker 1: for fucking human behavior. And so it's it's I think
Speaker 1: we can all be works in progress as well as
Speaker 1: helping others. Like if I wait until I've got all
Speaker 1: my shit together before I ever do a podcast or
Speaker 1: ever help anyone, or same with you, before you ever
Speaker 1: treat anyone or work with any patients. If you wait
Speaker 1: till you've got all your shit together, you're never going
Speaker 1: to see anyone, you know, because we're all simultaneously students
Speaker 1: and teachers.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: Well, hopefully we've helped somebody a little bit today. And
Speaker 1: this actually turned out to be a very important conversation.
Speaker 1: And so thank you for Thank you for being vulnerable
Speaker 1: and real and honest, and I love that. I think
Speaker 1: there's some synergy between our perspectives and you helped me
Speaker 1: understand stuff better. And maybe my own site has been
Speaker 1: helpful as well. I'm not sure but yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: really important conversation. I'm glad we had it me.
Speaker 3: Too, and I'll quickly say for anyone if it's brought
Speaker 3: up anything for you guys, to definitely get in touch
Speaker 3: with Lifeline.
Speaker 4: On thirteen eleven fourteen, you can reach out to Headspace.
Speaker 2: We'll be on blue.
Speaker 3: There are lots of amazing resources for people with you know,
Speaker 3: who are going through any kind of mental health difficulties.
Speaker 3: So we're like on Craigstrom, speak on your behalf, but
Speaker 3: we really highly encourage you to reach out and seek
Speaker 3: some support.
Speaker 4: If any of this has brought anything up for you today.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. Well say goodbye a fair but as always
Speaker 1: to you and little Craiggina get Craig Gina. Look, I'm
Speaker 1: okay with either a.
Speaker 2: Little halfer a little halfer.
Speaker 4: Thanks Uncle Craig, and thanks for being chat. Thanks guys
Speaker 4: for listening.