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Speaker 1: I'll get a team. Welcome to another installment and the project, Craigsmind,

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Speaker 1: I'm doctor Hannah is up there and thriving metropolis of Sydney.

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Speaker 1: Apparently it's cold. She's sitting with the heater just blowing

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Speaker 1: on her feet, just just wasting all the energy. No,

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Speaker 1: see how I threw you under the bus straight away?

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Speaker 2: I look bad.

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Speaker 1: No you don't. You're just trying to stay warm. That's okay.

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Speaker 2: My toes they're like icicles.

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Speaker 3: My partner tells me every time I go to bed,

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Speaker 3: my favorite place to put them is right under his thumb.

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Speaker 3: And apparently they're like the ten toes of death because

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Speaker 3: they're just little icicles. I'm sure a lot of other

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Speaker 3: women can relate to that, or partners of of death.

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Speaker 2: Really very cold.

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Speaker 1: You you put your feet under his bum.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, like when we're sitting on the couch, when we're

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Speaker 3: in bed, like I'll just like put them underneath his

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Speaker 3: body because they're nice and warm.

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Speaker 2: I don't trust me.

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Speaker 3: I'm not the only woman who does that. I am

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Speaker 3: sure there are other women who do that.

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Speaker 1: I'm absolutely sure. Now you sound a little bit sick today.

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Speaker 1: Have you got the flu? Have you got COVID, are you.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, I don't have the flu. I don't have COVID.

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Speaker 2: Actually I have morning sickness.

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Speaker 1: Oh my, oh oh. Now have I told you about

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Speaker 1: the Craig bonus. I think I have.

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Speaker 2: My name, my baby Craig. Yeah. I do like Harper.

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Speaker 2: I like Harper a lot.

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you what some of my I think about

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Speaker 1: three and nothing to do with me, of course, But

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Speaker 1: three or four of my friends have a guy who

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Speaker 1: used to work for me, Sam Wood, who now is

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Speaker 1: a megastar. Sam he was the bachelor, and he owns

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Speaker 1: a company called twenty eight. And he's got a little

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Speaker 1: girl called Harper. So of course, Prince and Brad and Carly,

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Speaker 1: friends of mine who I'm the fit shop, they've got

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Speaker 1: a little girl called Harper. It's funny how there's got

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Speaker 1: nothing to do with your area of expertise or mine,

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Speaker 1: But fuck it, isn't it funny? Isn't it funny how

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Speaker 1: names go through kind of waves like where that's up

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Speaker 1: and about you know, three or four or five or

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Speaker 1: six years, and then it disappears.

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Speaker 3: Well, what I'd really like is and this is a

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Speaker 3: little bit tapp into the psychology, but I give my

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Speaker 3: daughter a name, and we know it's a girl. We

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Speaker 3: found out the other week. They're very exciting. I'd like

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Speaker 3: to give her, like a unisex name that's not obviously

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Speaker 3: a girl's name, because I want her to do her

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Speaker 3: best in life and reach her best potential. And I

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Speaker 3: don't know, Craig, if you can relate to this, probably not.

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Speaker 3: But as a woman, I have found that having the

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Speaker 3: name Hannah on reports or having a female name has

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Speaker 3: been met with, you know, people who perhaps have not

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Speaker 3: taken me as seriously had my name been a man's name.

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Speaker 3: Perhaps that that what I've written to them may have

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Speaker 3: been received a little better or a little you know,

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Speaker 3: with a bit more acceptance with who am I?

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Speaker 2: What do I know? I just I wonder sometimes if

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Speaker 2: my life.

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Speaker 3: Would have been a little easier if I had a

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Speaker 3: unisex name.

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Speaker 1: Wow, So if we could, if we could magic it

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Speaker 1: into existence? What what well have you have you narrowed

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Speaker 1: down a list be your daughter? Of course you might

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Speaker 1: not even close.

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Speaker 3: It's so hard to pick a name because it's like

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Speaker 3: for the rest of her life she'll she'll have this.

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Speaker 2: Name, and I want her to do well in life.

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Speaker 3: Like I'm really I feel like I've joined this club

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Speaker 3: finally where I'm like finally started to get you know,

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Speaker 3: the parents who like they've had a child, they get

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Speaker 3: certain things that I've done before I fell pregnant, and

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Speaker 3: now I'm finally understanding the pressure of certain things, like oh,

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Speaker 3: picking her name is actually really difficult. Yeah, surprisingly had.

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Speaker 1: Now his his fun fact, I've got a friend. His

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Speaker 1: name is Hannah.

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Speaker 2: Oh really like Hannah, like like Hannah.

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Speaker 1: Hannah, same as you h a n n ah, there

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Speaker 1: you go.

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Speaker 3: How is I wonder how he's found that. Does he

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Speaker 3: like having a name that sort of uni set?

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Speaker 1: I think? So he actually owns a restaurant in Brighton, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is the next town long And and he's big dude,

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Speaker 1: like big strong, not that it matters, but big, large, strong,

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Speaker 1: alpha male called Hannah. So yeah, I wonder if when

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Speaker 1: he signs things that people assume that he's I guess

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Speaker 1: they would. I guess they would.

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Speaker 3: Well, I actually I read about this study where you know,

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Speaker 3: a male and female, like just case anecdote or really

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Speaker 3: case study of where they swapped names in an organization

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Speaker 3: and the gentleman wrote emails with her name at the bottom,

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Speaker 3: and the woman wrote emails with his name at the bottom,

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Speaker 3: and then he was doing the same things he'd always

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Speaker 3: done with his sales and with his working and then

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden, after swapping names, he started having

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Speaker 3: difficulties with client interactions, people questioning him, people making his

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Speaker 3: life hard, questioning his ability to give them the right advice,

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Speaker 3: just just making the whole process a lot harder. And

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Speaker 3: he realized the only thing that had changed was that

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Speaker 3: he was signing off with his colleagues, you know, a

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Speaker 3: female colleagues name instead of his own name, Whereas she

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Speaker 3: had the opposite effect of people being easier to work with,

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Speaker 3: process going much smoother, people accepting her opinion and her advice.

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Speaker 3: So it was just kind of this really initial, very

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Speaker 3: brief study, but it really captured me. So I couldn't help.

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Speaker 3: But wonder, you know, how much impact does it have

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Speaker 3: on our I suppose, our ability to work with others

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Speaker 3: depending on how they perceive you or they've even met you.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if that's that's really interesting, by the way,

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Speaker 1: I wonder if that's consistent across industries, Like I wonder

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Speaker 1: if some industries, in some industries or professions, women are

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Speaker 1: held in higher esteem, more regard than men. I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I mean, i'd like to think, so I'm

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Speaker 3: in a female dominated industry, and I know there's a

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Speaker 3: lot of female dominated industries like nursing and teaching and

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Speaker 3: allied health for occupational therapy spee pathology flips around with physiotherapy.

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Speaker 3: But interestingly, even in the female dominated industries, it is

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Speaker 3: always the case that it's male dominated when it comes

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Speaker 3: to the upper echelons within that industry, so they're more

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Speaker 3: executive level. Suddenly flips around again, even though it's female dominated,

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Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, it's male dominated in the

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Speaker 3: executive and senior roles. So, you know, I'd like to say,

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Speaker 3: maybe it's different, but it hasn't necessarily been my experience

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Speaker 3: that you know. I hope that my daughter would grow

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Speaker 3: up in a world where her gender didn't matter and

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Speaker 3: that her expertise was taken to be the most important,

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Speaker 3: most important part of her Well, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean that, you know, it is silly that I mean

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Speaker 1: that that's still yes, but you're right, it still happens.

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Speaker 1: It still hopefully it happens less. But does it still happen,

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Speaker 1: you know, gender bias and all the different biases. Of course,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you. I wanted to ask you today.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to talk a little bit. Today. Won't be

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Speaker 1: a long one because you're a little bit under the weather.

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Speaker 1: Oh by the way, by the way, did you this?

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Speaker 1: I don't know if I'm meant to ask this on air?

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Speaker 1: Will will like was the baby girl? Was she intended?

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Speaker 1: Or was this a happy?

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Speaker 3: Oh god, that's a great question. Don't feel to this out.

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Speaker 3: This is the best question. So she was a beautiful

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Speaker 3: a little bit of both. So we we actually because

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Speaker 3: I'm a little bit older and most this is we're

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Speaker 3: getting into gender stuff a lot this episode, Craig, But

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Speaker 3: most of my last ten years have been told I'll

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Speaker 3: be well, you should be careful, you better get onto it,

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Speaker 3: you better hurry up. You're not gonna be able to

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Speaker 3: get pregnant, Like heaps and heaps of pressure increasingly of

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Speaker 3: people saying, you know, like you need to think about

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Speaker 3: being able to get pregnant, and what are you going

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Speaker 3: to do if you can or you can't, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: And freezing my eggs, like so much pressure to go

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Speaker 3: check my fertility and freeze my eggs and see if

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Speaker 3: my ovaries are working, et.

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Speaker 2: Cetera, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: And I've been pretty laid back and cool about the

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Speaker 3: whole thing until more recent years where it did get

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Speaker 3: to me and I started to get a little scared

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Speaker 3: of my fertility being good enough, and also the fear

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Speaker 3: that if something did happen and I couldn't fall pregnant,

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Speaker 3: that it would somehow be my faults because I didn't

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Speaker 3: I was selfish, and I didn't have children quickly enough

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Speaker 3: and now you can't have children like this, this idea

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Speaker 3: that it would have been my fault, and I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Maybe that's other women can relate to that, maybe they

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Speaker 3: can't relate to that, but that's just how I felt.

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Speaker 3: So my partner and I are in a good place

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Speaker 3: and we're really stable, really happy, just you know, the

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Speaker 3: best life, and we sort of thought, well, if we

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Speaker 3: have children that and we're really excited for that.

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Speaker 2: So we weren't not trying. I think that's the phrase

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Speaker 2: we use. We weren't not trying. And the first time

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Speaker 2: we were not trying, weren't not trying was when we.

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Speaker 3: Fell pregnant straight away, So there was there was no

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Speaker 3: issues at all. Shout out to any women out there

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Speaker 3: who were worried about their fertility. You know, it was

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Speaker 3: all okay and everything went okay, and it's been a

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Speaker 3: really smooth booth sailing. So it's something I don't hear

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Speaker 3: a lot about with women and pregnancy. It's often a

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Speaker 3: lot of fear lungering. So I think it's a nice

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Speaker 3: good news story to hear about a woman who waited

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Speaker 3: a little bit longer and she was okay.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's it's as much as I can understand it,

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Speaker 1: I understand it. And yeah, a lot of friends who

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Speaker 1: have been in a similar boat. I've got a question

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Speaker 1: for you, like when when you find out you're pregnant

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Speaker 1: and you're becoming This is not the episode we plan

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Speaker 1: to do, by the way, everyone, but fuck it, here

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Speaker 1: we are. Do you think like when you when you

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Speaker 1: when you get pregnant for the first time, as you

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Speaker 1: kind of said, like a whole new world opens up.

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Speaker 1: Now you're thinking about things that you've never had to

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Speaker 1: think about, you know, like, oh my god, there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of pressure choosing a name because what name that

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Speaker 1: could create positive or negative outcomes that could influence people

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Speaker 1: to treat her a certain way, or maybe you know,

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Speaker 1: like I've never really thought about the impact that a

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Speaker 1: name would have in that sense, But it totally makes sense.

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Speaker 1: But when you broaden that back and you think about

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Speaker 1: you being a mum, do you think about what are

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Speaker 1: some of the things that this is a This is

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Speaker 1: a tough question, right, this is a vulnerable question. But

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Speaker 1: what are some of the things about you that you

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Speaker 1: don't want your daughter to have?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: My skin like traits, habits thinking like with me, if

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Speaker 1: I had a boy, there'd be so many things that

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Speaker 1: I do that I would not want him to do

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Speaker 1: or be Like, is there anything where you think, fuck,

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Speaker 1: I hope she doesn't turn out like me in this.

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Speaker 3: Regard, Yes, Craig crippling anxiety. Really hope doesn't inherit that

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Speaker 3: I have, like terrible anxiety. And it's you know, there's

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Speaker 3: all that old cliche like, oh, you became a psychologist

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Speaker 3: because you have your own problems. Maybe maybe that's true,

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Speaker 3: But I grew up with like terrible, terrible anxiety. And

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Speaker 3: my parents had a we had five kids in the family,

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Speaker 3: and like they were not the not the.

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Speaker 4: Wealthiest of people. In fact, they're pretty poor people.

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Speaker 3: A lot of my life and my dad was you know,

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Speaker 3: went through a lot of trauma growing up himself, so

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Speaker 3: he you know, he had there was a lot of

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Speaker 3: intergenerational kind of stuff that affected us. And I grew

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Speaker 3: up with like really really quite significant anxiety around you know,

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Speaker 3: just trying to be.

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Speaker 2: Good enough and people please.

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Speaker 3: And it took me, you know, really like a good

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Speaker 3: ten years over the last ten years to try to

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Speaker 3: get to the bottom of why do I keep putting

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Speaker 3: myself out? Why do I keep going to the fawn response?

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Speaker 3: You know, we talked a lot about that in our

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Speaker 3: little Your Brain in a Nutshell series like Freeze for Flight,

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Speaker 3: Freeze and fawn response. And I'm definitely a Freeze and

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Speaker 3: a fawn person, Like I just won't defend myself or

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Speaker 3: I will appease others and give and give and give

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Speaker 3: until the point of total exhaustion and burnout, and all

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Speaker 3: while sitting at home kind of shaking in my boots

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Speaker 3: because I'm so terribly anxious about it all. So that's

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Speaker 3: taken a long time to kind of work on, and

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Speaker 3: I constantly have to work when I was anxious. Just today,

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Speaker 3: like I see a psychologist myself just for like maintenance

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Speaker 3: of mental health.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've been seeing a.

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Speaker 3: Psychologist for years, and I think I'm going to practice

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Speaker 3: what you preach. I'm a psychologist and I see a psychologist,

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Speaker 3: so you know, I'm on top of it.

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Speaker 4: Compared to what I was when I was, you know,

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Speaker 4: in my early twenties.

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Speaker 3: I don't have panic attacks or you know, as bad

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Speaker 3: episode of anxiety, doesn't control me like it used to.

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Speaker 3: But you know, that's something I think. I think that

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Speaker 3: comes down to how you raise a child. And I

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Speaker 3: want to make sure you know I'm going to raise

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Speaker 3: her in a way where she knows her worth and

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Speaker 3: she knows that it's okay to say no, and it's

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Speaker 3: okay to put herself first, and that that's not selfish,

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Speaker 3: it's actually good practice so that you have enough in

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Speaker 3: the tank to do other things in life. But definitely

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Speaker 3: I don't. Yeah, that's the thing I don't want her

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Speaker 3: to inherit about my personality, I guess, And I don't

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Speaker 3: want that to impact her in my parenting.

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Speaker 2: What about you tell me want something? Would you like

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Speaker 2: to have children? Are you going to have children? Can

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Speaker 2: I ask that?

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Speaker 1: No?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: Fuck? Imagine really no another verse. Look if I was younger, maybe,

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Speaker 1: but and and we've I haven't really spoken about this

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Speaker 1: on the show. But I I've been told one thousand

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Speaker 1: times you'd be a good dad. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: I would, though, I don't know if I would. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't it doesn't matter that that horses that gate

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Speaker 1: has closed. But in a hypothetical, in a parallel universe,

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Speaker 1: I would, Yeah, I would want my kid to have

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Speaker 1: better self esteem than I had, and two to have

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Speaker 1: more confidence. I mean my mom and dad. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's hard because one of the things that we do is,

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Speaker 1: you know, we expect our parents to be a certain way,

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Speaker 1: and it's usually like I think, or you should be

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Speaker 1: more like me dad, almost right. But the funny thing

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Speaker 1: is my mum and dad. And I don't want to

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Speaker 1: bore my listeners who've heard this too much, but my

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Speaker 1: mum and dad grew up in the Second World War.

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Speaker 1: They were both born in nineteen thirty nine, so it's

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Speaker 1: a long time ago. And you know, they weren't raised

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Speaker 1: in a Disney movie, you know, and life was tough

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Speaker 1: and mum was Mum's mum died giving birth to her,

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Speaker 1: so mum never had a mum, right, So you know,

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Speaker 1: back in the days when it wasn't as safe now

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Speaker 1: as it is now. My dad was one of six

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Speaker 1: boys and eight people in a family, you know, six boys, depression,

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Speaker 1: very little money, you know, and so then I grew

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Speaker 1: up in compared to them, you know, luxury compared to them,

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Speaker 1: So there wasn't but with even though I had everything

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Speaker 1: that I needed practically it, you know, there was probably

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Speaker 1: stuff that, through no real fault of theirs, that I

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Speaker 1: didn't get emotionally, I guess. And but my mum and

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Speaker 1: dad are really good parents, and for what they knew

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Speaker 1: and what they experienced and what they had to work with,

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Speaker 1: I think they did a really good job. And so

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Speaker 1: but for me, I would like to, you know, be

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Speaker 1: if I was a dad, I guess invest a lot

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Speaker 1: more emotionally than I got, like an emotion you know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: like things are good, like a bike's good, school's good,

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Speaker 1: bed's good, warm, dinner's good, all things that we absolutely need.

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Speaker 1: And they did it, you know, a great job. But

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Speaker 1: because my dad never really received lots of affection or

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Speaker 1: positive endorsement or you know, reinforcement or you know, like

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Speaker 1: he wasn't great at that despite the fact that he

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Speaker 1: loved me, and he would show that he loved me

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Speaker 1: in other ways, but I think that, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think a bit of that, you know, but it's hard.

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Speaker 1: It's like, I actually, wow, now I'm opening the door.

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Speaker 1: But I like, I had a revelation one day, and

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Speaker 1: it was it was on a day I was talking

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Speaker 1: to one of my uncles and I realized when I

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Speaker 1: was talking to one of my uncles, my dad's brother,

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Speaker 1: I realized that I hadn't really considered my dad as

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Speaker 1: a child, as a boy. And then I tried to

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Speaker 1: put myself in my dad's childhood because my childhood was

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Speaker 1: a fucking dream compared to his. And then I went, ah,

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Speaker 1: considering what he grew up in, which wasn't horrible, but

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Speaker 1: it wasn't far from horrible. Right then he turned out great.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 1: But when I look through the Craig window, I can

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Speaker 1: be very critical and very judgmental and all of that.

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Speaker 1: But when I get off my high horse and I

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Speaker 1: start to you know, there's a you know, there's an

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Speaker 1: idea in psychology that you're probably well aware of called

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Speaker 1: false consensus effect. A false consensus effect basically, Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: what it means is we think that other people think

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Speaker 1: like us. Ah, yes, so I think Ron should think

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Speaker 1: like me. And I expect him to because I'm right,

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Speaker 1: and how can he not think like me? And so

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Speaker 1: you know, and that for me, lucky, I'm doing a

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Speaker 1: PhD in self awareness, essentially self awareness. That for me

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Speaker 1: was a real expansion of my reality in my mind

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Speaker 1: and an expansion of my awareness and humility because I

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Speaker 1: realized I was actually the problem, not my dad. I

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Speaker 1: was expecting my dad to be the way that I wanted,

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Speaker 1: rather than just expecting my dad to be my dad

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Speaker 1: how he is. You know, so like I think that's

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Speaker 1: one of the ever present challenges. Sorry I'm talking too

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Speaker 1: much today, this is your show, but I really think that,

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Speaker 1: you know, theory of mind, trying to understand and not

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Speaker 1: agree with, not endorse, but just understand other people's mind

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Speaker 1: and their thoughts. It's such a fucking interpersonal superpower.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, it's funny because I you know, I do

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Speaker 3: a lot of work with autism. I do a lot

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Speaker 3: of work with your adversity. And you know, you're so

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Speaker 3: true like theory of mind, that that word. Hopefully you

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Speaker 3: guys have heard that before. I'm sure you would have

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Speaker 3: talked about it before. But your ability to have empathy,

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Speaker 3: your ability to put yourself in other people's shoes, your

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Speaker 3: ability to not be ego centric anymore it's all that

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Speaker 3: are being all about me. It becomes I understand there

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Speaker 3: are other people, and there's that shift that happens around

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Speaker 3: five or six, you know, in the developmental stages when

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Speaker 3: you can you can recognize that you're not the only

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Speaker 3: person on the planet and that mommy and Daddy have

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Speaker 3: feelings and other people have feelings as well, and you're right, Like,

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Speaker 3: it seems like such a spectrum of like why do

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Speaker 3: some people get almost like this hyper aware you know,

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Speaker 3: theory of mind where they're too aware other people, they're

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Speaker 3: hyper sensitive to other people.

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Speaker 2: And to a crippling degree where they're.

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Speaker 4: People pleases and they can't stop.

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Speaker 3: Versus the other end of the spectrum, where people are

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Speaker 3: almost like you know, you could say, I've met some

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Speaker 3: narcissistic people in my time. I've met some people who

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Speaker 3: have clear personality disorder issues, but I've also met people who,

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Speaker 3: you know, they're almost like on a genetic level, they

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Speaker 3: are predisposed to lack the theory of mine because of

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Speaker 3: a you know, an autism for example, And it's like

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Speaker 3: where do you fall on that spectrum? And sometimes it

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Speaker 3: comes down to or how were you raised and what

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Speaker 3: were you taught was normal not normal?

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Speaker 2: And what was love?

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Speaker 3: And did your dad get cuddles when he was younger?

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Speaker 3: Did he talk about his emotions when he was younger?

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Speaker 3: So many, so many men from the generation above you

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Speaker 3: and even your generation too.

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Speaker 4: Craig would not talk about feelings.

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Speaker 3: That is not acceptable to talk about feelings, like imagine

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Speaker 3: telling your dad to go and see a psychologist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. You know what's interesting about my audience is

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Speaker 1: that it's seventy percent women. And it's not like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's and when I run workshops, like public workshops,

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Speaker 1: it's even more. It's sometimes it's like I did a

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Speaker 1: last time I did a workshop at Deacon University in Melbourne.

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Speaker 1: We had six hundred and seventy people, and I would say,

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Speaker 1: I would say there were six hundred and twenty women. Wow,

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Speaker 1: yeah yeah in the rooms. Yeah yeah. And not because

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Speaker 1: I mean, which is interesting, because it's not like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about in inverted commas, women's issues, or I'm

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Speaker 1: Brad Pitt or I'm I think. It's just the fact

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Speaker 1: that I love talking about the human experience and I

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Speaker 1: love opening all the doors and I'm happy to be

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Speaker 1: vulnerable and talk about my numerous flaws and you know,

399
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Speaker 1: and I and for whatever reason, I'm comfortable in that.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I kind of almost thrive in that because

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Speaker 1: it's just like to me, because that's just real. And

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Speaker 1: some guys, uh are like, I'm getting more and more men,

403
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Speaker 1: which is great talking about feelings and talking about shame

404
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Speaker 1: and talking about you know, acknowledging shit that is just

405
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Speaker 1: part of who we are, rather than going not not

406
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Speaker 1: not don't want to talk about it, but yeah, it's

407
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Speaker 1: it's a really interesting that whole idea of trying to

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Speaker 1: understand someone else's version of right now without judging it,

409
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Speaker 1: without saying, oh it's your right or you're wrong or

410
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Speaker 1: you know, but just that not so much putting a

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Speaker 1: value on it, but just having, you know, that whole

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Speaker 1: idea of seek first to understand and then to be understood.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I wonder why it is that? I mean,

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Speaker 3: do you have any theories about when I could? I

415
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Speaker 3: can postulate, but do.

416
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Speaker 4: You, as a man, have any theories about why is it?

417
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Speaker 3: Because I see this time and time and time again

418
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Speaker 3: with mental health and women in abundance who are seeking

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Speaker 3: assistance guidance improvement, you know, journey to greater self awareness

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Speaker 3: and greater mental health. And there's this almost like as

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Speaker 3: actually as you describe this huge seventy percent split with

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Speaker 3: the uptake of men doing the equivalent, Like, why is

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Speaker 3: it that they struggle to engage with mental health even

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Speaker 3: though this clear recognition that men's mental health is almost

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Speaker 3: more severely affected than women's with suicide rates and things.

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Speaker 4: Like that, Why are men not engaging?

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Speaker 1: Whye, Well, there's an overarching reason that we can then

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Speaker 1: break down, and the overarching reason is fear, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: they don't because they're scared, and you go, scared of what,

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Speaker 1: Scared of looking weak, scared scared of being embarrassed, scared

431
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Speaker 1: of not belonging to the tribe, the bloke tribe. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know, like I can't say who, but I do

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Speaker 1: work with a few groups and in some groups that

434
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be too hard to figure out what I'm

435
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 1: talking about. You do not want to put your hand

436
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 1: up for mental health. And you know what I'm saying,

437
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 1: there are some groups that you because if you admit

438
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,000
Speaker 1: that you have mental health issues in some groups, that's

439
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:24,880
Speaker 1: actually going to hurt your career. So While some organizations

440
00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 1: are outwardly going, oh, we're all about the mental health

441
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,000
Speaker 1: of our the practical reality behind the curtain is that

442
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: if you actually do say I need help, I've got

443
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: mental health issues in some places, that's going to put

444
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,879
Speaker 1: the brakes on your advancement of your career. Right. So,

445
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:47,600
Speaker 1: I think the overarching answer is they're scared of stuff,

446
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: and the stuff is I don't want my career to

447
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 1: come to a grinding halt. I don't want people to

448
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 1: think I'm weak. I don't want to be embarrassed. I

449
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,359
Speaker 1: don't want to be ejected from my grid. Yeah, but

450
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 1: the irony is it's actually like if you do get

451
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 1: ejected from that group, will fuck that group? Like that's

452
00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: not the group you want to be in. I like,

453
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:18,040
Speaker 1: I love hugging men. I love sitting with a man

454
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 1: who's crying. I love vulnerability because it's fucking true, it's

455
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,120
Speaker 1: all there anyway. All we're doing is, all we're doing

456
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,640
Speaker 1: is opening the door. Like all of the guys who

457
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: never cry, who never talk about their feelings, who never

458
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 1: and I'm not being critical of them, but it's not

459
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,520
Speaker 1: that they don't have emotions, it's just that they won't

460
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 1: open that door because there's a social penalty for that.

461
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, perceive social penalty, yes, But I also wonder, like

462
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 3: how many women who'd be listening who wouldn't love, you know,

463
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,199
Speaker 3: absolutely jump with the chance for their partner or their

464
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,000
Speaker 3: brother or their best mate or whatever, whoever it was,

465
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 3: to share something deeper with them and to explore something deep.

466
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 3: And I often have male friends who, funnily enough, it's

467
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 3: interesting you mentioned like in certain spheres of their life,

468
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,719
Speaker 3: men not being able to share how they're going emotionally

469
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 3: or say anything about having an emotional struggle because god forbid,

470
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 3: you know, they're a doctor or a policeman or a

471
00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:23,000
Speaker 3: fireman or whatever, and they get fired as a result

472
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 3: of it.

473
00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 2: But in higacy and behind closed doors.

474
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 3: In terms of what they then do with themselves, like

475
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 3: my mental health journey, just my own perspective has all

476
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 3: been personal, Like I go and see.

477
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 4: A psychologist private aside, not to do with work.

478
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 3: That's my own self journey into becoming a better version

479
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,360
Speaker 3: of Hannah. But what are the men do in their

480
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 3: private life like to then improve how they're going? And

481
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 3: is infiltrating the private life as well? Like can men

482
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 3: talk to other men or other women in the at

483
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 3: least in their private life, or are they just bottling

484
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 3: it up everywhere?

485
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:04,959
Speaker 2: I don't know. Tell me, Craig, you're around.

486
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: Well, the answer is yes, they can, but maybe even

487
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,360
Speaker 1: the better question is do they? And the answer is

488
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 1: sometimes some men sometimes. Look it is it is getting better,

489
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: but it is slower than I would like it to be.

490
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,440
Speaker 1: But you know, it's like this, This is a very

491
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 1: personal story. But my training partner Mark, lovingly known as

492
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 1: the Crab. I don't know if you know this story,

493
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:37,720
Speaker 1: but four and a half years ago we were training

494
00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,280
Speaker 1: at the gym and he he had a cardiac arrest.

495
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 1: Oh god, you're dead, absolutely dead for seventeen minutes, right,

496
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,399
Speaker 1: And so I worked on him and all of that,

497
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:54,680
Speaker 1: and fortunately he came back seventeen minutes later. But it's

498
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 1: funny when you have this experience and he's an alpha male,

499
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: he's an ex pro body, he's fucking massive. He's you know, like,

500
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: if you're ever going to get stuck on an island,

501
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 1: get stuck with him. He'll build you a city by Tuesday. Right.

502
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: I'm about as handy as an ashtray on a motorbike.

503
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 1: I'm fucking shit, right, he's a many man man, right,

504
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 1: but we had this. It doesn't get much more intimate

505
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: than you giving one of your best friend's mouth to

506
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,360
Speaker 1: mouth CPR and keeping him alive until the ambos come.

507
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 3: Right.

508
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,160
Speaker 1: Well, that just opened the door and hopefully people don't

509
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,359
Speaker 1: have to go that through that for the door to open.

510
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 1: But for me, well one where you know, we're still

511
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: you know, we just talk shit and hang out. We're

512
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 1: mates and we train every day. But it was interesting

513
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: for me because in that moment where I'm on the gym,

514
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: he's on his back dead. When he fell, he bit

515
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: through his tongue, so there's blood coming out of his mouth.

516
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: I won't give you too much more of a description,

517
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 1: but I could, and it's not pretty. But in that

518
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: moment where I'm trying to save my friend's life and

519
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 1: my mouth's on his mouth and there's blood everywhere, and

520
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: it's fucking you know, there's nothing in me going, oh

521
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 1: what does this look like? Oh my god? You know,

522
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: there's none of that bullshit present, all of that, all

523
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 1: of that, you know, Oh this is not cool on

524
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: my ego? Oh fuck, what would people think if they

525
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: saw that? Like it all vanishes, it's all fucking rubbish, right,

526
00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 1: And I don't know. And I've had a few things,

527
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: like a few like some of my best friends have died,

528
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: you know. I had a really good friend of mine

529
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: die about four months ago, you know, and you know,

530
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: left behind two young children. And it's like when you

531
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,479
Speaker 1: go through and I'm on no level of victim. I'm blessed.

532
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: My life is amazing. There's no self pity here. But

533
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 1: when you go through that with other people, for me anyway,

534
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't have time for me. I do

535
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: not person I have time for all the bullshit, Like

536
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: if I love you, you'll know if you might like.

537
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: My best mate in the world is Vin. We talk

538
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:11,240
Speaker 1: on the phone. Every time we talk, we tell each

539
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: other we love each other every time. And he's a

540
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: man's man. He's an electrician. He's a blokey bloke. Every

541
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: time I tell him I love him. Every time I

542
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 1: hug him because I don't know what the future holds,

543
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 1: and I don't want to go fuck. I wish I

544
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: had oh if only I had a It's just I

545
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 1: don't want to let my bullshit get in the way.

546
00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: And I think us men and I'm generalizing, not all

547
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 1: men but some men sometimes let their bullshit get in

548
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: the way when they actually love deeply, they love their mates,

549
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: you know, And I just think, and they love their

550
00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: family and they let you know, and I just think

551
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,440
Speaker 1: that we don't need to be walking around every eight

552
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 1: minutes telling everyone that. But I just think it's you know,

553
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: it's slowly shifting, but it'd be good if there was

554
00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,000
Speaker 1: a little bit of a hurry on.

555
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 2: And it's ironic.

556
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 3: Actually, the irony is like it's painful at times and

557
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:09,680
Speaker 3: laughable at other times, but the irony of the ultimate

558
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 3: you know that from what I can guess, and I'm

559
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 3: not a man, so I am just guessing. But like this,

560
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 3: this hierarchy, this pyramid, this elite at the top, what

561
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 3: you're aiming for of being the perfect guy, the perfect man,

562
00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:24,440
Speaker 3: you know, and the perfect man's loyal, and the perfect

563
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 3: man is honorable, and the perfect man has integrity, and

564
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 3: he's there for you, and he's never down, he's never upset.

565
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 4: He does everything because he's the perfect man.

566
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 3: And the irony of that model is to actually be

567
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 3: that guy who is there for people, loyal, has integrity,

568
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 3: who's not bothered, who for the most part has good

569
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 3: you know, stable mental health and healthy relationships with other

570
00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 3: people is not through that pathway. It's actually through the

571
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 3: pathway that often gets pushed away, which is acknowledging feelings,

572
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 3: talking about feelings, feeling validated that you've got those feel

573
00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 3: and normalized for having those very human emotions, and then

574
00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 3: processing them so that you can then be a great

575
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 3: friend and a great partner, and a great lover and

576
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 3: a great brother and whatever else you.

577
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 2: Want to be.

578
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 3: But it's so ironic to me that the way we're

579
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 3: walking towards that ultimate goal is actually probably the one

580
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 3: thing that's pushing you further away from that goal.

581
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think you know, here's the thing, right,

582
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: is that compassion and humility and vulnerability can coexist with

583
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 1: whatever the fuck being a man means. You know. It's like,

584
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: if I'm out and about and someone threatens a friend

585
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: of mine, I'm like, I will do what I need

586
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: to do to protect my friend. Do you know what

587
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: I mean? I don't want to be in a fight.

588
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:53,719
Speaker 1: I don't want to confront it. But at the same time,

589
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: being vulnerable and compassionate doesn't mean you're weak, doesn't mean

590
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: that you're letting people dominate you. You know, there's still

591
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: a time, there's a you know, there's a time for

592
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: you know, control aggression. Hopefully not often, but if somebody,

593
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: you know, I went into the city, it was probably

594
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 1: ten years ago now, and this just random guy grabbed

595
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 1: my stretch, stepped in front of us and grabs my

596
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: mum on the arm. Like my mom at the time

597
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 1: was seventy four, right. Oh, needless to say, he wished

598
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: he hadn't done that, and he was just some stranger

599
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 1: that he wanted, you know, and I didn't. I'm just like,

600
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: that's not okay, that's not you know. I'm like and

601
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,720
Speaker 1: I'm like, what the fuck are you doing? And you know,

602
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 1: but so but without being the alpha male, there's there's

603
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 1: a time to go, hey, that that behavior is unacceptable.

604
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: I need to protect someone. I hope that I never

605
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 1: get in an altercation ever again in my life. I

606
00:33:57,760 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: don't want to do that. But at the same time,

607
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,520
Speaker 1: we can't just grab my mother. There's a consequence for that.

608
00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: That's not okay, you know. But at the same time,

609
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,800
Speaker 1: you know, do I want to hurt anyone? Of course

610
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:13,480
Speaker 1: not do. I understand that that guy's probably got mental

611
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 1: health issues, of course, so you know, but at the

612
00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 1: same time we you know, there's this there's this duality

613
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 1: of still being able to be a strong male or female,

614
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:34,800
Speaker 1: strong when required, mildly terrifying. My mum's fucking terrifying at times.

615
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 1: For a woman that's about three foot tall, she's terrifying,

616
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: you know. But also that can coexist with kindness and

617
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:46,279
Speaker 1: compassion and empathy and awareness. You know, it doesn't have

618
00:34:46,320 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 1: to be one or the other.

619
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 3: That's so interesting actually, just as a reflection, and hopefully

620
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 3: you don't mind me making this reflection, but it's so interesting,

621
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 3: you know, when we tapped into the part of the

622
00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 3: conversation where we really talked about vulnerability and you know,

623
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 3: this being the perfect guy, the perfect man, and then

624
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 3: vulnerability and then the memory that came up for you.

625
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 3: Because so for me, I was talking in my sphere

626
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:14,240
Speaker 3: and my mind, my conceptualization as a woman.

627
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 4: I was thinking about mental health and talking about feelings

628
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 4: and therapy, and it didn't even cross my mind, not

629
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 4: for a second, did the need for sometimes being assertive

630
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,319
Speaker 4: and aggressive and protecting your loved ones.

631
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 3: That didn't even come into my head at all, not

632
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 3: even to my conceptualization at all. That occurred to me

633
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 3: and but for you that when we tapped into vulnerability,

634
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 3: a memory that came up for you was protecting your

635
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 3: mother from an assault. And I just feel like I

636
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 3: need to report and reflect on that that those two

637
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 3: comments about being vulnerable was then so intrinsically tired with

638
00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:54,439
Speaker 3: a memory of the time you had to defend your mum.

639
00:35:55,120 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, like hit the practical reality

640
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 1: two right, Like life's not a theory, Life's not a

641
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: podcast with Hannah and Craig, Like life's a messy shitfest.

642
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: And you know, I'll give you another story. One day,

643
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:15,560
Speaker 1: about three years ago, I live on a main street

644
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: and I heard this this child screaming and crying. I'm like,

645
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,279
Speaker 1: oh my god. And I went outside and all I

646
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:30,720
Speaker 1: saw was a man, my size man hitting a child.

647
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 2: Oh gosh wow.

648
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: I went fucking nuts. And then he turned to me

649
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: and he goes, it's my it's my kid, right, And

650
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm not going to stand there while you

651
00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: the child was four or five. I'm not going to

652
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: just let you. I don't care whose child it is.

653
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: I'm not going to stand by while you assault a child.

654
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 1: I said, if you hit if you hit him once more,

655
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:01,959
Speaker 1: I will fucking knock you out?

656
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 2: Wow?

657
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: What? And he stopped. And I don't want to do that.

658
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,320
Speaker 1: And I'm not trying to sound anything, but there's something

659
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 1: in me that Look, there are times, unfortunately the practical

660
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 1: reality of the human experiences, sometimes you need to intervene.

661
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,800
Speaker 1: Hopefully it's hardly ever. And of course I didn't hit him,

662
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: and of course I didn't want to hit him, but

663
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 1: if he had kept hurting that child, I would have

664
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: hurt him. Yeah, And you go, trust me when that's happening.

665
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 1: You want somebody with some controlled aggression. You want somebody

666
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: who will get in the way. There was a guy

667
00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: called Sir Edmund Burke, and he said, all that's necessary

668
00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:50,520
Speaker 1: for evil to triumph is for good men slash women

669
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:51,240
Speaker 1: to do nothing.

670
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 3: That's so, you know, that's actually brought a memory up

671
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,319
Speaker 3: for me, that's brought which I'm going to share. It's

672
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 3: a bit of a vulnerable memory, but I remember seeing that.

673
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 3: I remember seeing you know. It was years ago and

674
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 3: I was standing in Newtown in Melbourne, in Sydney, and

675
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 3: I was waiting to go into an appointment. I was,

676
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 3: funnily enough, I was going to get some singing bowl

677
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 3: singing bowl sound therapy, which is amazing.

678
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 2: We'll talk about it another day.

679
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 3: But I was waiting outside to go into this like

680
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 3: this kind of therapeutic, lovely spiritual session, sitting on the street,

681
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,960
Speaker 3: and you know, you just people watch, observe people like

682
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 3: Sticky Beacon. And I was watching this couple in a

683
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 3: car right beside me, and they were having a bit

684
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 3: of a heated discussion, and then I watched the partner,

685
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 3: the man in the car, strike the woman like he

686
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 3: hit her.

687
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 2: He hit her in the face.

688
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 3: And then I stopped talking and looked down and then.

689
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,359
Speaker 4: You know, and then you know what he did? Can

690
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,440
Speaker 4: you be emotional talking about it? He looked up at

691
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,799
Speaker 4: me and he made eye contact and he saw that

692
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 4: I had seen it, and he smiled.

693
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 2: He's smart.

694
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 3: He smiled because he knew because I stood there and

695
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,239
Speaker 3: I was like, oh my god, I can't believe what

696
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,359
Speaker 3: he's just done. And so many thoughts popped in my head,

697
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 3: like go to the car, open the door, pull her out,

698
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:21,560
Speaker 3: like call the police, like what do you do? And

699
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,800
Speaker 3: he just like he just smiled at me because he knew.

700
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 3: There's nothing you can do, sweetheart. Yea, he was so right,

701
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,799
Speaker 3: because he's this big massive guy on this tiny little thing.

702
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 3: He's in a car about to drive off, and I'm

703
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 3: sitting there on the side of the road, like what

704
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,720
Speaker 3: am I going to do? How do I protect this woman?

705
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 3: And in my mind I was like, get out of

706
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 3: the car, get out of the car.

707
00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 4: And she stayed in the car and I stood there

708
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 4: like just kind of paralyzed and frozen for another good

709
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 4: five minutes after they drove off, going what should I do?

710
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 3: Should I call someone? Will they believe me? If I

711
00:39:57,320 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 3: call the police? Will they listen?

712
00:39:59,320 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 2: You know?

713
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 4: And it was a horrible it was a horrible situation

714
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:04,760
Speaker 4: where I'm really ashamed to say I did nothing.

715
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,840
Speaker 2: I didn't do anything because I didn't, you know what

716
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 2: I mean.

717
00:40:09,120 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 3: It was it was at and at the time I

718
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 3: was like, yeah, if I was a strong man, maybe

719
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 3: I would have chosen a different path there.

720
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 4: And I still I still it was years ago. I

721
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:24,520
Speaker 4: still think about that woman and wonder where is she now?

722
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 1: Mhmm. You don't have to feel ashamed. I mean for

723
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 1: you to put your you would have then it depending

724
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:37,359
Speaker 1: on I mean, probably that guy's a psychopath. Probably like

725
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: if he's belting a woman then smiling at you, he's

726
00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:44,719
Speaker 1: a psychopath. Yeah, yeah, that's I mean, these are just

727
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: that's you know, it's like, that's what I said. Life's

728
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,320
Speaker 1: not a conversation with you mean, it's not a theory,

729
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: it's not I mean, how many how many women have

730
00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: been on the end of that kind of horrendous treatment

731
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 1: And this is this is what I'm saying. You know,

732
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:05,319
Speaker 1: sometimes all that's necessary for evil to triumph is for well,

733
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: the original saying is for good men to do nothing.

734
00:41:08,120 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 1: And it's like, I fucking you know when you tell

735
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 1: me that story, that makes me mad, not mad that

736
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 1: you didn't do anything, but just like and I hate it.

737
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,840
Speaker 1: I hate it that some evil, fucking pricks do that.

738
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 1: And and but there is a that's why, you know,

739
00:41:25,640 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 1: it's like I hate war, right, but we need an army,

740
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,480
Speaker 1: we need a defense force. Like what like literally, what

741
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: do they do? Will they? You know, depending on the context,

742
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 1: sometimes we send people overseas to kill people. I mean

743
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 1: like it's it's like in a perfect world that we

744
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 1: don't have but if we did perfect world, there'd be

745
00:41:49,719 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 1: none of that. But that ain't where we live. And

746
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:55,520
Speaker 1: while we don't want to be negative, we do want

747
00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 1: to be practical and that the truth is, like, especially

748
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 1: right now in Melbourne and nearly every night on the news,

749
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: there are stories of home invasions where people are, you know,

750
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: people older people are being robbed, bashed, threatened, periodically killed.

751
00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: You know that recently in Sydney, that horrible event in

752
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: the shopping center. You know, I mean, like, let's hope

753
00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 1: that that doesn't happen again, but we all know that

754
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: that is a version of that is going to happen again.

755
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 1: Not necessarily that same as that or similar, but like,

756
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:37,359
Speaker 1: this is it. We want to be positive, we want

757
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 1: to be loving, we want to be empathetic, but we

758
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: also need to be fucking prepared and we also need

759
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,160
Speaker 1: to be practical and realistic.

760
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 3: You know.

761
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:48,720
Speaker 1: And I say this stuff to people all of the time.

762
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, don't assume, don't assume it's going

763
00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:55,120
Speaker 1: to be okay. Don't also assume it's going to be

764
00:42:55,480 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: not okay. But you know, yeah, it's I don't know

765
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 1: how we got to this place, but.

766
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 3: No, I think it's like I'm having a daughter myself,

767
00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 3: and I think about these things now where I go

768
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 3: give me I'm that's saying like punching up like and

769
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 3: they say it with jokes and humor, like don't punch,

770
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:16,600
Speaker 3: don't punch down, you know, but it's okay for you

771
00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:20,759
Speaker 3: punch across or punch up, like I think I see

772
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:25,279
Speaker 3: that with like mental health and awareness like you. You know,

773
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 3: women can't be expected to educate men like we can't.

774
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:29,919
Speaker 2: We can't.

775
00:43:29,960 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 3: It's like the dangers for us to for me to

776
00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,080
Speaker 3: say that's not okay, that's not okay for you to

777
00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 3: do that, the risk of me very real risk of

778
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 3: me being physically assaulted as a result of trying to intervene.

779
00:43:43,200 --> 00:43:46,440
Speaker 3: But then, you know, men teaching other men. You know,

780
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 3: don't speak to her like that, don't don't make jokes

781
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 3: about her like that, don't treat her like that, don't

782
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,839
Speaker 3: talk about her like that, or you know, make it's

783
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:56,280
Speaker 3: okay to talk about your feelings.

784
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 2: It's okay to talk about you.

785
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 3: Know, don't call him that, don't call him a pansy

786
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,720
Speaker 3: for talking about it, like men teaching other men, because

787
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 3: you are physically stronger, and you are you do have that,

788
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 3: you know, physical ability to kind of be on the

789
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:15,919
Speaker 3: same level as a fellow, as a mate and say

790
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 3: to him when something's not okay and when something is okay,

791
00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 3: with not no fear, because there's definitely always going to

792
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 3: be fear, but certainly less fear than perhaps a woman

793
00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 3: would or a child would standing up to a male

794
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:32,920
Speaker 3: to say that wasn't okay. I think that's why you know,

795
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:34,880
Speaker 3: you're saying of what you were talking about with the

796
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 3: saying of when good men stand and do nothing, that

797
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,320
Speaker 3: to me, I see, Yeah, good men need to stand

798
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,800
Speaker 3: up to other men to help educate them about better

799
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 3: mental health and better treatment of everyone.

800
00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 4: And that to me is where I can see the future.

801
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 3: When men teach other men, that's when things will start

802
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,240
Speaker 3: to change because I think they'll listen.

803
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, well hopefully who knows, Hopefully one person will hear

804
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:04,080
Speaker 1: this that needed to hear it, and maybe there'll be

805
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: a you know. I also I also want to say

806
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: that not all men are bad men.

807
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 2: Of course not.

808
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:14,960
Speaker 1: There are a lot of great men. I don't put

809
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: myself in the great men category. But you know, not

810
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:20,280
Speaker 1: every not every man is a bad man. Not every

811
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: man is doing bad things, not every man is violent.

812
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 1: Not every man, you know.

813
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 4: So.

814
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 1: We need to acknowledge what's going on. But we don't

815
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: want to throw all men under the bus.

816
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,919
Speaker 3: Because I feel bad to those good men as well,

817
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:35,799
Speaker 3: because I do wonder if it's a little bit like,

818
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 3: you know, eighty percent of the work is being done

819
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 3: by twenty percent of the of the army sort of

820
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:46,240
Speaker 3: you know, like too much for the individuals like yourself

821
00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 3: to be working, you know, on like mental health and

822
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 3: supporting men.

823
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 2: And it's you know, one voice among millions of other men.

824
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,479
Speaker 2: Like it's it's hard. It's so hard.

825
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:00,919
Speaker 3: It's that collective effort that's needed so that not one

826
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 3: person has to constantly be the one voice that stands up.

827
00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 4: It's so much voices.

828
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:09,840
Speaker 1: I think. Also, you know, like I feel like I

829
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,360
Speaker 1: have a bit of a responsibility sometimes because I have

830
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: a platform and I'm a bloke to go, hey, blokes,

831
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:19,759
Speaker 1: let's let's talk about our stuff. Let's be honest and

832
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: raw and all of those things. But also at times

833
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,160
Speaker 1: sometimes I've said to lots of men over the years,

834
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 1: you know, that's not okay, Like that thing that you're

835
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: doing not okay, not okay, it's not okay. And also

836
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:39,600
Speaker 1: you know, even for myself, not in not in terms

837
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:43,239
Speaker 1: of like you know, hurting people, but you know, just

838
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:47,320
Speaker 1: like one of the challenges I think if we're really

839
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 1: serious about not only helping others, but really helping ourselves. Right,

840
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 1: I have to acknowledge that I fuck up. I have

841
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,160
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that I've got an ego. I have to

842
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 1: acknowledge that I make bad decisions, and I need to

843
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: work on me because I'm definitely not the high watermark

844
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 1: for fucking human behavior. And so it's it's I think

845
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:13,080
Speaker 1: we can all be works in progress as well as

846
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: helping others. Like if I wait until I've got all

847
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 1: my shit together before I ever do a podcast or

848
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 1: ever help anyone, or same with you, before you ever

849
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 1: treat anyone or work with any patients. If you wait

850
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 1: till you've got all your shit together, you're never going

851
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:30,880
Speaker 1: to see anyone, you know, because we're all simultaneously students

852
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:31,440
Speaker 1: and teachers.

853
00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know.

854
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 1: Well, hopefully we've helped somebody a little bit today. And

855
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:40,160
Speaker 1: this actually turned out to be a very important conversation.

856
00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:43,920
Speaker 1: And so thank you for Thank you for being vulnerable

857
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,799
Speaker 1: and real and honest, and I love that. I think

858
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 1: there's some synergy between our perspectives and you helped me

859
00:47:56,200 --> 00:48:00,799
Speaker 1: understand stuff better. And maybe my own site has been

860
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 1: helpful as well. I'm not sure but yeah, it's a

861
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: really important conversation. I'm glad we had it me.

862
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,959
Speaker 3: Too, and I'll quickly say for anyone if it's brought

863
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:13,160
Speaker 3: up anything for you guys, to definitely get in touch

864
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 3: with Lifeline.

865
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,240
Speaker 4: On thirteen eleven fourteen, you can reach out to Headspace.

866
00:48:17,280 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 2: We'll be on blue.

867
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 3: There are lots of amazing resources for people with you know,

868
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:24,919
Speaker 3: who are going through any kind of mental health difficulties.

869
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 3: So we're like on Craigstrom, speak on your behalf, but

870
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:31,240
Speaker 3: we really highly encourage you to reach out and seek

871
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:31,800
Speaker 3: some support.

872
00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 4: If any of this has brought anything up for you today.

873
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:38,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely. Well say goodbye a fair but as always

874
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:44,799
Speaker 1: to you and little Craiggina get Craig Gina. Look, I'm

875
00:48:44,800 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 1: okay with either a.

876
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 2: Little halfer a little halfer.

877
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 4: Thanks Uncle Craig, and thanks for being chat. Thanks guys

878
00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:52,400
Speaker 4: for listening.