Speaker 1: Ben Robert Smith, the Victoria Cross recipient found to have
Speaker 1: committed war crimes on deployment in Afghanistan, has this morning
Speaker 1: been arrested.
Speaker 2: This week, Australia's most decorated living soldier, Ben Robert Smith,
Speaker 2: was arrested and charged with war crimes. It came as
Speaker 2: a shock to even those closest to the story.
Speaker 1: I was surprised, you know. I knew that obviously something
Speaker 1: had to happen because the OSI had been investigating for
Speaker 1: quite some time, but I wasn't absolutely sure that it
Speaker 1: ever would happen. I, frankly in the background, had to
Speaker 1: wonder whether Australia had the appetite for locking up its soldiers,
Speaker 1: particularly a war hero.
Speaker 2: And I know back in two thousand and seven, journalist
Speaker 2: Chris Masters went to Afghanistan to report an Australia's war
Speaker 2: from the ground, to see how Australia's soldiers were fighting
Speaker 2: and what the war was doing to them. Over time,
Speaker 2: he began to hear whispers that some elite soldiers had
Speaker 2: crossed the line. Years later, working alongside his Nick Mackenzie,
Speaker 2: Masters helped turn those whispers into one of the biggest
Speaker 2: investigations in recent Australian journalism.
Speaker 3: Australia's most decorated soldier has been entangled in an investigation
Speaker 3: into the actions of Special Forces in Afghanistan.
Speaker 1: Murder war, criminal war hero to zero.
Speaker 3: A small group of SAS soldiers had gone rogue getting
Speaker 3: their kill count.
Speaker 1: Up by acting as judge, jury and executioner.
Speaker 2: I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to seven AM Today
Speaker 2: Award winning journalist Chris Masters on the reporting that helped
Speaker 2: bring Robert Smith's a Learned Crimes to light on what
Speaker 2: this case says about war accountability and the country that
Speaker 2: sends soldiers to fight in far away places. It's Friday,
Speaker 2: April tenth. Chris Sissl began with you going to Afghanistan
Speaker 2: more than fifteen years ago. Now, can you tell me
Speaker 2: about when you first went to Afghanistan and what you
Speaker 2: were doing there and who you met.
Speaker 1: I went there three times. The first time was in
Speaker 1: two thousand and seven. This was a point in that
Speaker 1: long conflict where reconstruction was pretty much the goal. I
Speaker 1: was impressed by young Australian soldiers who were putting their
Speaker 1: life on the line to improve the lives of Afghan civilians.
Speaker 1: In two thousand and seven, four Corners visited Taran Cott
Speaker 1: filming with Australian Army engineers on a mission to provide
Speaker 1: security and reconstruction for the sake of building governance. I
Speaker 1: went back in twenty ten and I saw a different
Speaker 1: phase of the operation when we were moving out into
Speaker 1: the bad lands and we were applying what they called
Speaker 1: courageous restraint. Whereas conventional Australian forces were trying to stand
Speaker 1: between the Taliban and the local population and encourage the
Speaker 1: local population to accept a new government. The soldiers do
Speaker 1: not stay hidden. They patrolled constantly by day and many
Speaker 1: a night, ninety percent of the time on foot, showing
Speaker 1: a deliberate face, to become familiar to locals, to gather
Speaker 1: intelligence and confront the enemy. Then I went back a
Speaker 1: year later with special Forces, where I saw something of
Speaker 1: the much more kinetic side of the mission. That is,
Speaker 1: you know, the feverish fighting, jumping in helicopters, racing out
Speaker 1: there to try to capture or kill what they called
Speaker 1: were high value targets. On the way here, plans changed.
Speaker 1: They heard on the radio that the Taliban commander was
Speaker 1: confirmed to be here in this motorcycle shop, so plans
Speaker 1: changed and the combat forces rushed this location. Now, most
Speaker 1: of the time there I thought that the Australians, even
Speaker 1: though it was an ugly war and a difficult war
Speaker 1: and probably an impossible war, that Australians weren't exactly on
Speaker 1: the wrong side. It was only towards the end, when
Speaker 1: I was working with special forces that some misgivings began
Speaker 1: to emerge, essentially, because occasionally I'd be out there in
Speaker 1: the bad lands with them and I just saw the
Speaker 1: hatred in the eyes of the Afghans and felt that
Speaker 1: something had to be wrong.
Speaker 2: When did the rumors around Ben Roberts Smith start to emerge?
Speaker 1: Essentially? I think in the beginning it was the psychologists,
Speaker 1: the intelligence officers, etc. That started to hear misgivings, and
Speaker 1: then some of the soldiers themselves started to talk to me.
Speaker 1: I think it was because they had concerns about some
Speaker 1: of the stuff that happened over there. They elevated those
Speaker 1: concerns to their immediate command. But the immediate command didn't
Speaker 1: seem to want to do anything about it. And that's
Speaker 1: pretty much how it all started. It takes a while.
Speaker 1: It's not as if you know, it's just a matter
Speaker 1: of some deep throat giving you a tip off and
Speaker 1: you're putting it in the paper the next day. It
Speaker 1: was something like twenty fifteen that I started hearing these
Speaker 1: things about Robert Smith, and it wasn't until twenty seventeen
Speaker 1: that I put some of the questions to him. And
Speaker 1: it was really his response that made me think that
Speaker 1: this really was a serious issue, that there was something
Speaker 1: to it.
Speaker 2: And so when you spoke to him in two thousand
Speaker 2: and seven, anquist, what kind of the meana did he
Speaker 2: have with you?
Speaker 1: We met in the Rose Garden at the Highatt Hotel
Speaker 1: in Canberra. It was before Anzac Day twenty seventeen, and
Speaker 1: of course, you know, you lead big footprints when you
Speaker 1: do this work. So he knew I'd been asking questions,
Speaker 1: and he knew that I was in contact with some
Speaker 1: of the people that he saw as his detractors, and
Speaker 1: I think he wanted to kind of embrace me into
Speaker 1: the fold. You know, look, Chris, come and see me.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you the truth. You know, I'm a war
Speaker 1: hero and a much better story than a story about winging soldiers.
Speaker 1: And when I started putting a few questions to him,
Speaker 1: not some of the central stuff that emerged later about
Speaker 1: war crimes, but just some of the misgivings people had
Speaker 1: had about particular incidents on operation. He really arked up,
Speaker 1: and I just came away from that meeting with a
Speaker 1: strong sense that he was the man with something to hide.
Speaker 1: He didn't just dismiss those concerns and say, look, soldiers
Speaker 1: are aggrieved, they see things differently the fog of war.
Speaker 1: I don't criticize them for having a different view, but
Speaker 1: I just don't agree with it. He didn't say that
Speaker 1: at all. He just lawyered up and he took us on,
Speaker 1: and that was really the beginning of the next chapter.
Speaker 2: So he tries try to intimidate you. That original story
Speaker 2: they get published in twenty eighteen, But was there any
Speaker 2: point where you felt the heat or intimidation to drop
Speaker 2: the story.
Speaker 1: At that point? You know? Really, I was more a
Speaker 1: freelance reporter working with Nick McKenzie, who had the backing
Speaker 1: of the nine network Sidney Morning Herald. And it amazes
Speaker 1: me when I think about it, that back in twenty
Speaker 1: eighteen we did make some serious defamatory accusations about Robert Smith,
Speaker 1: a Victoria Cross recipient, being accused of war crimes. And
Speaker 1: not just war crimes, but murder. You know, the stakes
Speaker 1: are very, very high.
Speaker 4: Mister Robert Smith launched information proceedings against Fairfax Media in
Speaker 4: August a series of reports, including war crime allegations. The
Speaker 4: Victorian Cross recipient continues to strongly deny all the allegations.
Speaker 1: I think, really, if you look back on it, you'd
Speaker 1: say that I don't think anybody anticipated that the bills
Speaker 1: would end up reaching something like thirty plus million dollars.
Speaker 1: But our employer probably would have been happier to settle
Speaker 1: somewhere along the line for commercial reasons. It's just that
Speaker 1: Robert Smith didn't want it.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: People have to remember that he was the one who
Speaker 1: sued us, He took us on, and when opposite settlement
Speaker 1: were considered, it was Robert Smith who didn't want a settlement.
Speaker 1: He wanted a victory coming up.
Speaker 2: Does Ben Robert Smith's arrest redefine the limits of matship? Chris?
Speaker 2: This story has shocked the nation in many ways. You
Speaker 2: were reporting helped lead to the bread and inquiry into
Speaker 2: alleged war crimes. But there are still those that are
Speaker 2: vehemently defending Ben Robert Smith's character.
Speaker 3: I s he Ben Robert Smith as a highly decorated
Speaker 3: war hero and you always will be that to me.
Speaker 3: We're talking about seventeen years after the fact. You know
Speaker 3: this evidence has been brought against him. Yes, there is
Speaker 3: a process and it will go through the court system.
Speaker 3: But I highly respect that man and what he's done.
Speaker 2: What does that say about the country that it seems
Speaker 2: to be that this issue is evolving into yet another
Speaker 2: cultural war.
Speaker 1: Yes, look, I think it has divided the nation and
Speaker 1: we've got some very important debates ahead of us. Whenever
Speaker 1: I hear this story about leve Ben Robert Smith alone,
Speaker 1: and I hear it every day, I have to think, well,
Speaker 1: you cannot be across the evidence. There was one hundred
Speaker 1: and ten days of evidence in court, We went to
Speaker 1: a civil trial, it was appealed. There was an attempt
Speaker 1: to get it to the High Court, which was rejected.
Speaker 1: So this matter has been adjudicated mightily.
Speaker 5: But after a five year battle, with one hundred and
Speaker 5: one days of evidence, forty one witnesses, six thousand pages
Speaker 5: of transcript and around thirty million dollars in neal costs
Speaker 5: to be paid by Robert Smith or his supporters, the
Speaker 5: verdict was clear.
Speaker 1: The evidence is profound, profoundly against Robert Smith. How can
Speaker 1: you defend an action when an innocent Afghan is pushed
Speaker 1: to the ground and defenseless is shot to death. How
Speaker 1: can you defend the fact that this was actually strategically counterproductive,
Speaker 1: that we were actually antagonizing the Afghan population, making the
Speaker 1: lives of our own soldiers more dangerous. How can you
Speaker 1: defend the psychological impact on young soldiers who were bullied
Speaker 1: into committing unconscientable acts. The people who continue to say
Speaker 1: leave this alone can't actually be across the evidence.
Speaker 2: Now that bed Robert Smith has been arrested and charged,
Speaker 2: how different will this criminal case be compared to the
Speaker 2: civil defamation case.
Speaker 1: No doubt about it, it is different. There's a different
Speaker 1: standard between balance of probabilities and beyond reasonable doubt. And
Speaker 1: I think a great many of the witnesses who already
Speaker 1: been through this probably don't want to go through it again.
Speaker 1: It's not beyond the realm of possibilities that an Australian
Speaker 1: jury won't want to convict a war hero, want to
Speaker 1: send an Australian soldier to prison. But none of that
Speaker 1: should discredit the evidence and the findings of the original
Speaker 1: civil trial. It just seems to be a different issue altogether.
Speaker 2: And what's the significance of this case in terms of
Speaker 2: shedding light on the complexities of war and Australia's role
Speaker 2: in Afghanistan. Do you think the public is prepared for
Speaker 2: what might come out?
Speaker 1: I think Robert Smith, there's been a few owned goals.
Speaker 1: He started with a very strong reputation. There's been a
Speaker 1: lot that's canvas that would challenge into that reputation. And
Speaker 1: I think also the whole reputation of Anzac to some
Speaker 1: degree is under challenge. I think back to the Charles
Speaker 1: ban tenets of what really made the Australian soldiers special
Speaker 1: and different, and he often said that it was about matship. Well,
Speaker 1: I wonder whether that needs to be rethought at the moment,
Speaker 1: because if you were Ben Robert Smith's mate and you
Speaker 1: felt that the obligation of matship was that you should
Speaker 1: cover up all of his unconscioable acts, then what's the
Speaker 1: point of that? You know, where is the value in
Speaker 1: matship in that respect? You know, I have great gratitude
Speaker 1: for the moral courage of the soldiers who were prepared
Speaker 1: to invite the opprobrium of their colleagues by standing up
Speaker 1: for the integrity of their regiment over this nonsense about
Speaker 1: you know you stick by your mate no matter what.
Speaker 1: I mean, what does that mean? You stick by your
Speaker 1: mate no matter what, even if it allows your mate
Speaker 1: to continue to do unlawful and damaging acts that are
Speaker 1: psychologically excredly difficult to deal with by many of the
Speaker 1: youngest soldiers in the tumult of war, they don't have
Speaker 1: time to stop and think when they come back and
Speaker 1: the comradeship, the mateship, the stuff that keeps them quiet
Speaker 1: starts to dissipate. They start to talk, they start to reflect,
Speaker 1: they start to think about what went wrong and why
Speaker 1: they're not feeling great. You know, special force of soldiers
Speaker 1: who've done all that training. You know, they're hero worshiped,
Speaker 1: and yet they would come back often feeling like they
Speaker 1: were ashamed of themselves.
Speaker 2: And finally, Chris, what does this say about the accountability
Speaker 2: within Australia's mility you in terms of those up the
Speaker 2: line who oversaw a lot of this culture and a
Speaker 2: lot of these operations. No one has been held to
Speaker 2: account at senior levels.
Speaker 1: That's an open question. It's a good question too. The
Speaker 1: critics who say, why are we prosecuting this? We'll often
Speaker 1: also say and what about the officers? And this is
Speaker 1: one area where I absolutely agree. I think it's a
Speaker 1: pity that it's corporals and troopers who are in the
Speaker 1: frame where it was command accountability. Why did they not
Speaker 1: know what was going on? You know, why aren't they
Speaker 1: being held to account? I think a lot more work
Speaker 1: needs to be done in that respect.
Speaker 2: Chris Masters, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 1: Put on you. Thank you.
Speaker 2: Also in the news, Prime Minister Anthony Albernesi has called
Speaker 2: on Israel to end it strikes in Lebanon, saying the
Speaker 2: Middle East ceasefires should be expanded to include the country.
Speaker 2: The US, Israel, and Iran have ostensibly agreed to a
Speaker 2: tensative two weeks ceasefire, but all sides have presented vastly
Speaker 2: different versions of the terms. There are also conflicting views
Speaker 2: on whether the ceasefire includes Israel ending its fighting against
Speaker 2: Hezbollah in Lebanon. Meanwhile, the federal government has repeated its
Speaker 2: warnings to consumers that economic relief from the fuel crisis
Speaker 2: won't follow immediately from the reopening of the Strait of
Speaker 2: Hormuz ship traffic through the Strait of Homus has remained
Speaker 2: at an effective standstill since Iran conditionally lifted its blockade.
Speaker 2: A major shipping company say conditions remain uncertain as vessels
Speaker 2: are concerned about security in the Strait. Anthie Albernesi is
Speaker 2: currently in Singapore for talks aimed at further shoring up
Speaker 2: Australia's fuel supplies. I'm Daniel James. You've been listening to
Speaker 2: seven Am. We'll be back tomorrow.