WEBVTT - Chris Masters on unravelling the Ben Roberts-Smith story 0:00:00.840 --> 0:00:04.680 Ben Robert Smith, the Victoria Cross recipient found to have 0:00:04.680 --> 0:00:08.639 committed war crimes on deployment in Afghanistan, has this morning 0:00:09.039 --> 0:00:09.920 been arrested. 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.800 This week, Australia's most decorated living soldier, Ben Robert Smith, 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.480 was arrested and charged with war crimes. It came as 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:19.759 a shock to even those closest to the story. 0:00:20.120 --> 0:00:23.840 I was surprised, you know. I knew that obviously something 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.880 had to happen because the OSI had been investigating for 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:30.680 quite some time, but I wasn't absolutely sure that it 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:34.199 ever would happen. I, frankly in the background, had to 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:39.080 wonder whether Australia had the appetite for locking up its soldiers, 0:00:39.120 --> 0:00:40.320 particularly a war hero. 0:00:40.720 --> 0:00:43.159 And I know back in two thousand and seven, journalist 0:00:43.240 --> 0:00:46.559 Chris Masters went to Afghanistan to report an Australia's war 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:49.879 from the ground, to see how Australia's soldiers were fighting 0:00:50.360 --> 0:00:53.280 and what the war was doing to them. Over time, 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:56.120 he began to hear whispers that some elite soldiers had 0:00:56.160 --> 0:01:01.240 crossed the line. Years later, working alongside his Nick Mackenzie, 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:04.240 Masters helped turn those whispers into one of the biggest 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:06.760 investigations in recent Australian journalism. 0:01:06.920 --> 0:01:10.800 Australia's most decorated soldier has been entangled in an investigation 0:01:11.000 --> 0:01:13.680 into the actions of Special Forces in Afghanistan. 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:18.120 Murder war, criminal war hero to zero. 0:01:18.040 --> 0:01:21.639 A small group of SAS soldiers had gone rogue getting 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:22.840 their kill count. 0:01:22.600 --> 0:01:26.640 Up by acting as judge, jury and executioner. 0:01:30.280 --> 0:01:34.880 I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to seven AM Today 0:01:35.280 --> 0:01:38.959 Award winning journalist Chris Masters on the reporting that helped 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:41.720 bring Robert Smith's a Learned Crimes to light on what 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:45.679 this case says about war accountability and the country that 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:53.840 sends soldiers to fight in far away places. It's Friday, 0:01:54.280 --> 0:02:03.000 April tenth. Chris Sissl began with you going to Afghanistan 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:05.600 more than fifteen years ago. Now, can you tell me 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:08.320 about when you first went to Afghanistan and what you 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:10.200 were doing there and who you met. 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:13.640 I went there three times. The first time was in 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:18.000 two thousand and seven. This was a point in that 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:23.400 long conflict where reconstruction was pretty much the goal. I 0:02:23.480 --> 0:02:27.400 was impressed by young Australian soldiers who were putting their 0:02:27.440 --> 0:02:32.960 life on the line to improve the lives of Afghan civilians. 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:36.760 In two thousand and seven, four Corners visited Taran Cott 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:40.680 filming with Australian Army engineers on a mission to provide 0:02:40.720 --> 0:02:45.200 security and reconstruction for the sake of building governance. I 0:02:45.240 --> 0:02:47.960 went back in twenty ten and I saw a different 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:51.840 phase of the operation when we were moving out into 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:55.799 the bad lands and we were applying what they called 0:02:55.840 --> 0:03:01.080 courageous restraint. Whereas conventional Australian forces were trying to stand 0:03:01.160 --> 0:03:05.040 between the Taliban and the local population and encourage the 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:09.120 local population to accept a new government. The soldiers do 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:13.120 not stay hidden. They patrolled constantly by day and many 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:16.520 a night, ninety percent of the time on foot, showing 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:20.600 a deliberate face, to become familiar to locals, to gather 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:25.240 intelligence and confront the enemy. Then I went back a 0:03:25.360 --> 0:03:29.240 year later with special Forces, where I saw something of 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:32.480 the much more kinetic side of the mission. That is, 0:03:32.600 --> 0:03:37.280 you know, the feverish fighting, jumping in helicopters, racing out 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:41.920 there to try to capture or kill what they called 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:46.160 were high value targets. On the way here, plans changed. 0:03:46.360 --> 0:03:50.440 They heard on the radio that the Taliban commander was 0:03:51.080 --> 0:03:54.960 confirmed to be here in this motorcycle shop, so plans 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:59.920 changed and the combat forces rushed this location. Now, most 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.920 of the time there I thought that the Australians, even 0:04:03.960 --> 0:04:05.920 though it was an ugly war and a difficult war 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:10.440 and probably an impossible war, that Australians weren't exactly on 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:13.240 the wrong side. It was only towards the end, when 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:18.080 I was working with special forces that some misgivings began 0:04:18.160 --> 0:04:23.400 to emerge, essentially, because occasionally I'd be out there in 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:25.800 the bad lands with them and I just saw the 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:28.760 hatred in the eyes of the Afghans and felt that 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:30.200 something had to be wrong. 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:34.800 When did the rumors around Ben Roberts Smith start to emerge? 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:39.440 Essentially? I think in the beginning it was the psychologists, 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:44.760 the intelligence officers, etc. That started to hear misgivings, and 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:48.159 then some of the soldiers themselves started to talk to me. 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:51.600 I think it was because they had concerns about some 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:54.360 of the stuff that happened over there. They elevated those 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:58.159 concerns to their immediate command. But the immediate command didn't 0:04:58.160 --> 0:05:01.719 seem to want to do anything about it. And that's 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:05.559 pretty much how it all started. It takes a while. 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:09.440 It's not as if you know, it's just a matter 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:12.440 of some deep throat giving you a tip off and 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:14.480 you're putting it in the paper the next day. It 0:05:14.560 --> 0:05:17.560 was something like twenty fifteen that I started hearing these 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:22.160 things about Robert Smith, and it wasn't until twenty seventeen 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:26.120 that I put some of the questions to him. And 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:29.760 it was really his response that made me think that 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:33.359 this really was a serious issue, that there was something 0:05:33.400 --> 0:05:33.760 to it. 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:35.719 And so when you spoke to him in two thousand 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.200 and seven, anquist, what kind of the meana did he 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:38.800 have with you? 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.920 We met in the Rose Garden at the Highatt Hotel 0:05:41.960 --> 0:05:46.160 in Canberra. It was before Anzac Day twenty seventeen, and 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:48.760 of course, you know, you lead big footprints when you 0:05:48.839 --> 0:05:51.839 do this work. So he knew I'd been asking questions, 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:54.240 and he knew that I was in contact with some 0:05:54.320 --> 0:05:58.880 of the people that he saw as his detractors, and 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.760 I think he wanted to kind of embrace me into 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.040 the fold. You know, look, Chris, come and see me. 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:06.719 I'll tell you the truth. You know, I'm a war 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:11.120 hero and a much better story than a story about winging soldiers. 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:15.480 And when I started putting a few questions to him, 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:18.679 not some of the central stuff that emerged later about 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:22.520 war crimes, but just some of the misgivings people had 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:28.120 had about particular incidents on operation. He really arked up, 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:30.560 and I just came away from that meeting with a 0:06:30.640 --> 0:06:34.240 strong sense that he was the man with something to hide. 0:06:34.400 --> 0:06:40.520 He didn't just dismiss those concerns and say, look, soldiers 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:43.640 are aggrieved, they see things differently the fog of war. 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:47.800 I don't criticize them for having a different view, but 0:06:47.839 --> 0:06:49.680 I just don't agree with it. He didn't say that 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:54.080 at all. He just lawyered up and he took us on, 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:58.880 and that was really the beginning of the next chapter. 0:06:59.480 --> 0:07:02.120 So he tries try to intimidate you. That original story 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:05.559 they get published in twenty eighteen, But was there any 0:07:05.640 --> 0:07:08.880 point where you felt the heat or intimidation to drop 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:09.760 the story. 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:11.960 At that point? You know? Really, I was more a 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:16.160 freelance reporter working with Nick McKenzie, who had the backing 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:20.720 of the nine network Sidney Morning Herald. And it amazes 0:07:20.760 --> 0:07:23.360 me when I think about it, that back in twenty 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:29.680 eighteen we did make some serious defamatory accusations about Robert Smith, 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:35.360 a Victoria Cross recipient, being accused of war crimes. And 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:39.240 not just war crimes, but murder. You know, the stakes 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:40.840 are very, very high. 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:44.920 Mister Robert Smith launched information proceedings against Fairfax Media in 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:49.440 August a series of reports, including war crime allegations. The 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:54.440 Victorian Cross recipient continues to strongly deny all the allegations. 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:57.160 I think, really, if you look back on it, you'd 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:00.920 say that I don't think anybody anticipated that the bills 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.880 would end up reaching something like thirty plus million dollars. 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:09.840 But our employer probably would have been happier to settle 0:08:09.920 --> 0:08:13.280 somewhere along the line for commercial reasons. It's just that 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:14.440 Robert Smith didn't want it. 0:08:14.520 --> 0:08:14.720 You know. 0:08:14.720 --> 0:08:17.560 People have to remember that he was the one who 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:21.640 sued us, He took us on, and when opposite settlement 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:26.440 were considered, it was Robert Smith who didn't want a settlement. 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:31.800 He wanted a victory coming up. 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:46.800 Does Ben Robert Smith's arrest redefine the limits of matship? Chris? 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.880 This story has shocked the nation in many ways. You 0:08:49.960 --> 0:08:52.400 were reporting helped lead to the bread and inquiry into 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.400 alleged war crimes. But there are still those that are 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:58.080 vehemently defending Ben Robert Smith's character. 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.640 I s he Ben Robert Smith as a highly decorated 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:05.120 war hero and you always will be that to me. 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:09.320 We're talking about seventeen years after the fact. You know 0:09:10.280 --> 0:09:12.679 this evidence has been brought against him. Yes, there is 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:14.760 a process and it will go through the court system. 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:19.000 But I highly respect that man and what he's done. 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:22.360 What does that say about the country that it seems 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:26.199 to be that this issue is evolving into yet another 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:26.880 cultural war. 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:31.119 Yes, look, I think it has divided the nation and 0:09:31.320 --> 0:09:36.120 we've got some very important debates ahead of us. Whenever 0:09:36.160 --> 0:09:39.160 I hear this story about leve Ben Robert Smith alone, 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:43.080 and I hear it every day, I have to think, well, 0:09:43.160 --> 0:09:46.120 you cannot be across the evidence. There was one hundred 0:09:46.120 --> 0:09:48.800 and ten days of evidence in court, We went to 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:52.840 a civil trial, it was appealed. There was an attempt 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:55.119 to get it to the High Court, which was rejected. 0:09:55.480 --> 0:09:58.520 So this matter has been adjudicated mightily. 0:09:58.679 --> 0:10:00.880 But after a five year battle, with one hundred and 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:04.760 one days of evidence, forty one witnesses, six thousand pages 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:07.800 of transcript and around thirty million dollars in neal costs 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:10.120 to be paid by Robert Smith or his supporters, the 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:11.120 verdict was clear. 0:10:11.440 --> 0:10:17.160 The evidence is profound, profoundly against Robert Smith. How can 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:21.280 you defend an action when an innocent Afghan is pushed 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:26.560 to the ground and defenseless is shot to death. How 0:10:26.559 --> 0:10:32.280 can you defend the fact that this was actually strategically counterproductive, 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:39.440 that we were actually antagonizing the Afghan population, making the 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:42.240 lives of our own soldiers more dangerous. How can you 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:46.880 defend the psychological impact on young soldiers who were bullied 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:51.440 into committing unconscientable acts. The people who continue to say 0:10:52.120 --> 0:10:55.920 leave this alone can't actually be across the evidence. 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:59.960 Now that bed Robert Smith has been arrested and charged, 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:02.560 how different will this criminal case be compared to the 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:04.040 civil defamation case. 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:06.720 No doubt about it, it is different. There's a different 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:12.080 standard between balance of probabilities and beyond reasonable doubt. And 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:14.400 I think a great many of the witnesses who already 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:17.600 been through this probably don't want to go through it again. 0:11:18.280 --> 0:11:21.640 It's not beyond the realm of possibilities that an Australian 0:11:21.720 --> 0:11:26.040 jury won't want to convict a war hero, want to 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:30.440 send an Australian soldier to prison. But none of that 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:34.640 should discredit the evidence and the findings of the original 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:39.640 civil trial. It just seems to be a different issue altogether. 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.200 And what's the significance of this case in terms of 0:11:42.280 --> 0:11:45.680 shedding light on the complexities of war and Australia's role 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:49.320 in Afghanistan. Do you think the public is prepared for 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:50.240 what might come out? 0:11:50.760 --> 0:11:54.000 I think Robert Smith, there's been a few owned goals. 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:57.600 He started with a very strong reputation. There's been a 0:11:57.640 --> 0:12:01.880 lot that's canvas that would challenge into that reputation. And 0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:04.959 I think also the whole reputation of Anzac to some 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:09.760 degree is under challenge. I think back to the Charles 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:14.120 ban tenets of what really made the Australian soldiers special 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:20.520 and different, and he often said that it was about matship. Well, 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:24.600 I wonder whether that needs to be rethought at the moment, 0:12:24.760 --> 0:12:28.520 because if you were Ben Robert Smith's mate and you 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.720 felt that the obligation of matship was that you should 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:37.640 cover up all of his unconscioable acts, then what's the 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:40.640 point of that? You know, where is the value in 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:46.000 matship in that respect? You know, I have great gratitude 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:48.760 for the moral courage of the soldiers who were prepared 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:53.440 to invite the opprobrium of their colleagues by standing up 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:59.800 for the integrity of their regiment over this nonsense about 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.199 you know you stick by your mate no matter what. 0:13:02.360 --> 0:13:05.400 I mean, what does that mean? You stick by your 0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:08.480 mate no matter what, even if it allows your mate 0:13:08.880 --> 0:13:15.760 to continue to do unlawful and damaging acts that are 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:20.320 psychologically excredly difficult to deal with by many of the 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:25.280 youngest soldiers in the tumult of war, they don't have 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.480 time to stop and think when they come back and 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:34.120 the comradeship, the mateship, the stuff that keeps them quiet 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:38.400 starts to dissipate. They start to talk, they start to reflect, 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:41.520 they start to think about what went wrong and why 0:13:41.559 --> 0:13:45.040 they're not feeling great. You know, special force of soldiers 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:49.199 who've done all that training. You know, they're hero worshiped, 0:13:49.240 --> 0:13:52.800 and yet they would come back often feeling like they 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:54.280 were ashamed of themselves. 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:58.480 And finally, Chris, what does this say about the accountability 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:02.480 within Australia's mility you in terms of those up the 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:05.280 line who oversaw a lot of this culture and a 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:08.360 lot of these operations. No one has been held to 0:14:08.440 --> 0:14:11.080 account at senior levels. 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:15.480 That's an open question. It's a good question too. The 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:20.240 critics who say, why are we prosecuting this? We'll often 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:23.400 also say and what about the officers? And this is 0:14:23.520 --> 0:14:27.360 one area where I absolutely agree. I think it's a 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:32.240 pity that it's corporals and troopers who are in the 0:14:32.280 --> 0:14:37.120 frame where it was command accountability. Why did they not 0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:41.040 know what was going on? You know, why aren't they 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.680 being held to account? I think a lot more work 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:45.680 needs to be done in that respect. 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.280 Chris Masters, thank you so much for your time. 0:14:50.480 --> 0:14:51.320 Put on you. Thank you. 0:15:10.800 --> 0:15:14.080 Also in the news, Prime Minister Anthony Albernesi has called 0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:16.840 on Israel to end it strikes in Lebanon, saying the 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:19.800 Middle East ceasefires should be expanded to include the country. 0:15:20.360 --> 0:15:22.960 The US, Israel, and Iran have ostensibly agreed to a 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:26.680 tensative two weeks ceasefire, but all sides have presented vastly 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:30.480 different versions of the terms. There are also conflicting views 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:33.880 on whether the ceasefire includes Israel ending its fighting against 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:37.640 Hezbollah in Lebanon. Meanwhile, the federal government has repeated its 0:15:37.640 --> 0:15:41.160 warnings to consumers that economic relief from the fuel crisis 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:43.800 won't follow immediately from the reopening of the Strait of 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:47.600 Hormuz ship traffic through the Strait of Homus has remained 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:51.720 at an effective standstill since Iran conditionally lifted its blockade. 0:15:51.920 --> 0:15:55.880 A major shipping company say conditions remain uncertain as vessels 0:15:55.880 --> 0:16:00.000 are concerned about security in the Strait. Anthie Albernesi is 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.400 currently in Singapore for talks aimed at further shoring up 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:07.360 Australia's fuel supplies. I'm Daniel James. You've been listening to 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:09.600 seven Am. We'll be back tomorrow.