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Speaker 1: Approache Production. Welcome to Secrets of the Underworld. I am

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Speaker 1: Neil the Muscle comments and.

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Speaker 2: In this episode I speak with Keith Banks, an undercover

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Speaker 2: cop who lived inside Australia's drug world.

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Speaker 1: Our job was simply to get in there infiltrate it,

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Speaker 1: buy drugs, working out the chain. And unlike the movies,

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Speaker 1: there was no surveillance, there's no backup. You were just

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Speaker 1: by yourself, he said, make working undercover. It's like neither

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Speaker 1: on steroids. The difference is of an actor gets a

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Speaker 1: bad review, it's his feelings hurt. We get a bad review.

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Speaker 1: Give baseball, bat around. It went to score from this

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Speaker 1: guy and he was off his nut and I said,

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Speaker 1: I don't use me. Then he produced a coach gun,

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Speaker 1: a double barrel shot. He put on the table cock

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Speaker 1: both hammers back and said you can do a line

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Speaker 1: or shoot you okay, were true? Thank you Keith for

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Speaker 1: coming on the podcast. Pleasure mate, thanks for asking me. No,

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Speaker 1: it's a pleasure.

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Speaker 2: I've seen what you've done in the past, been on

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Speaker 2: the cover, and you're your book and of a podcast

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Speaker 2: that you've been on, and I thought, well, you know,

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Speaker 2: i'd love you to be on mind to share your story.

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Speaker 2: Before we get into all and nitty gritty, I want

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Speaker 2: to get to know you as a person before you

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Speaker 2: even joined the force and see what led to you

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Speaker 2: to go down that path of being an undercover.

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Speaker 1: Cup.

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Speaker 2: Sure, so tell me about you growing up with your

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Speaker 2: family and brothers and sisters and going through schooling and

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Speaker 2: what led you down that path, mate.

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Speaker 1: I grew up in western Queensland, all all through Queensland. Really.

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Speaker 1: My mother remarried when I was six years old. I

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Speaker 1: think I didn't know my natural father. They divorced when

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Speaker 1: I was maybe twelve months old. She moved back into

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Speaker 1: Queensland in a little town called Tambo and you're charmable

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Speaker 1: where her parents were. My granddad was a drover and

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Speaker 1: a bullocky. My uncles were drovers. What's that? What's that?

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Speaker 1: What's a drover? Drover is a guy who herded sheep

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Speaker 1: and cattle. Oh okay, yeah, okay, that's interested. They were

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Speaker 1: really good men, really good. Mean. Unfortunately, when mum remarried,

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Speaker 1: she married a man who probably wasn't all that good.

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Speaker 1: He was an unskilled laborer, drank a lot. You know.

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Speaker 1: I grew up in an environment of domestic abuse, physical

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Speaker 1: and mental abuse. For me personally, for all the various

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Speaker 1: reasons that you know men are haunted. Well, you were

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Speaker 1: you the only sibiling or did well when mum remarried,

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Speaker 1: they had two daughters. I have two half sisters. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was a pretty challenging childhood and we moved around.

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Speaker 1: I remember Mum telling me I went to something like

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Speaker 1: ten or eleven different schools in the first three years.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, a bit of a challenging childhood. And I

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Speaker 1: look back on that often now, and I actually taught

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Speaker 1: my resilience from an early age, you know, just to

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Speaker 1: go through all of that, you'd understand your schools Well, yeah, kid,

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Speaker 1: you get bashed day one.

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Speaker 2: But what age would you say that you actually got

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Speaker 2: a bit of stability in your childhood life and said okay,

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Speaker 2: and then you stayed there for a couple of months,

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Speaker 2: or if you went through school for a bit longer

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Speaker 2: than what you did, what your age were you then.

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Speaker 1: Well, Mum actually put a foot down when I was

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Speaker 1: in grade four, so I went back and lived with

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Speaker 1: her parents and my grandparents in this little tiny town

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Speaker 1: for three years. So that was great, you know, because

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Speaker 1: I had good male role models, tough floaks, but fair

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Speaker 1: you know, loving great family environment. So that gave me

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Speaker 1: a lot of stability, and we moved to Mount Isa

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Speaker 1: for years six and seven as a family unit. Then

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Speaker 1: we went to Cairns in god, I think year seven,

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Speaker 1: eight and a bit of year nine, and then a

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Speaker 1: town outside towns Will called Charter's Towers, which you've moved

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Speaker 1: around that yeah, grades nineteen and eleven. Probably because of

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Speaker 1: that nomadic background, and this is something I haven't said before,

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Speaker 1: it probably schooled me well to work undercover because I

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Speaker 1: was used to new environments. You know, I was used

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Speaker 1: to sort of walking that line as the new kid often.

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Speaker 1: So you know, I'm envious of people who do have

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Speaker 1: long childhood friends because I don't have any of that.

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Speaker 1: So I left home just after year eleven, before I

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Speaker 1: turned seventeen, so I was sixteen and a half. And

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Speaker 1: I left home because I wanted to do something from

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Speaker 1: an early age, as cliched as it sounds, I wanted

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Speaker 1: to do something in a career that could protect people

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Speaker 1: from others. And again it doesn't take a shrink to

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Speaker 1: figure out why. I guess, you know, having grown up

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Speaker 1: in that environment, so I was holding out to join

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Speaker 1: the army. I've become an Army cadet. In those days,

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Speaker 1: we had a cadet system in high school where I

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Speaker 1: think it was maybe it was once a week, two

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Speaker 1: weeks year in the cadet camp, but very militarily based,

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Speaker 1: and in those days you could shoot, so I learned

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Speaker 1: how to shoot in the cadets. Bushcraft drill that good stuff,

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Speaker 1: and again good mile role models, you know, those teachers

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Speaker 1: who were in charge of the cadet regiment. We had

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Speaker 1: a Vietnam veteran who was a white officer who'd seen

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Speaker 1: service over there and was in charge of the cadet contingent.

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Speaker 1: And I did pretty well in that. I thrived in

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Speaker 1: that actually in that environment. So I did a cadet

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Speaker 1: under officer's course at the end of year eleven, all

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Speaker 1: of that stuff, and I had the intention of just

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Speaker 1: doing year twelve and then applying for the Royal Military College.

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Speaker 1: And he was pretty convinced that i'd get in. The

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Speaker 1: problem was I couldn't live in that environment for another

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Speaker 1: twelve months. And around that time the cops had sent

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Speaker 1: recruiting people out of schools and I remember seeing this

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Speaker 1: cop come in and thought, damn, that's a pretty good

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Speaker 1: career where I can actually do something to help people,

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Speaker 1: and every kid wants to change the world. And I

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Speaker 1: was a kid, and I thought, wow, that's something I

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Speaker 1: can be, you know, really good at. So went to

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Speaker 1: the academy the year returned seventeen, did twelve months, which

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Speaker 1: was year twelve by dispersed with being yelled at and

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Speaker 1: getting the haircut and having to make your bed and

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Speaker 1: re inspected in March and blah blah blah, and then

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Speaker 1: another twelve months of training after that. So I graduated

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Speaker 1: from the academy after two years of socialization, you know.

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Speaker 1: And I loved it because I had my own room.

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Speaker 1: I hadn't grown up in a house where I had

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Speaker 1: my own bedroom. I had you know, the three meals

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Speaker 1: a day as they say, and I had direction. And

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Speaker 1: a lot of the other kids didn't really like it

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Speaker 1: a lot. I loved it at that time. Though. Did

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Speaker 1: you have close friends in your life then or not?

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Speaker 1: Or just my best mates I met in that first

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Speaker 1: couple of months at the academy. There are mates that

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Speaker 1: I'm still very close to now. So they're the ones

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Speaker 1: that I regard as my best and almost childhood friends.

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Speaker 1: I spoke and then yeah, I had to wait till

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Speaker 1: I turned nineteen and was sworn in as a cop.

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Speaker 1: Way too young man. So how many years were you

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Speaker 1: in the force for? I did twenty twenty years. I

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Speaker 1: resigned after twenty.

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Speaker 2: So after start, you were just normal on the beat

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Speaker 2: or were you still excited to that being on the

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Speaker 2: beat or did you have bigger things in your head

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Speaker 2: by then?

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Speaker 1: Mate? I just wanted to be a cop, you know, And.

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Speaker 2: So there was no thing that you had in your

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Speaker 2: head that you were going to go down the path

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Speaker 2: that you had no way too early.

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Speaker 1: I had in the back of my mind I'd like

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Speaker 1: to be detective someday because I'd come fresh from the country.

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Speaker 1: You know. I was completely naive to the ways of

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Speaker 1: the world. I had no real idea about how anything worked.

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Speaker 1: Were you stationed in the country or you're no, no, no.

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Speaker 1: I never wanted to go back, okay, And I've told

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Speaker 1: this story to all lot lot of people, my friends,

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Speaker 1: you know, that caught a train from towns Wall down

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Speaker 1: to Brisbane and having grown up in the country, the

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Speaker 1: first thing I noticed when I got to Brisbane were

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Speaker 1: there were buildings over two stories tall and so many girls.

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Speaker 1: I thought, I don't ever want to go back to

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Speaker 1: the bush.

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Speaker 2: When you were in the force at the start seventies eighties,

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Speaker 2: what were we talking?

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Speaker 1: I sworn in seventy seven seventy seven. It was an

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Speaker 1: era in Queensland where we had a premier, Jobi Oki Pedison,

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Speaker 1: who ruled with an iron fist. We'd had a police

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Speaker 1: commissioner ousted and replaced with a police commissioner who later

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Speaker 1: went to jail for corruption. There was a whole undercurrent

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Speaker 1: of I wouldn't say widespread corruption, but certainly it was

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Speaker 1: one of those almost unspoken understandings. The boss was bent,

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Speaker 1: that his mates were bent, and I remember thinking as

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Speaker 1: a young kid like wow, this is this is not great,

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Speaker 1: But I'm still a cop. So walking the beat and

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Speaker 1: learning how to talk to people, how to deal with people,

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Speaker 1: all that stuff was exciting. And Brisbane was a pretty

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Speaker 1: violent town in those days, so I learned how to

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Speaker 1: fight and look after himself pretty quickly.

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Speaker 2: Were you nervous on your first instant when you had

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Speaker 2: to arrest someone? Were you nervous like or to come

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Speaker 2: natural to you?

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Speaker 1: No? No, it was everybody's scared because like it's nineteen

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Speaker 1: you know, as I said, way too young. And the

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Speaker 1: first guy I arrested was for drink driving. I think

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Speaker 1: who you know was pissed. I was on the literally

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Speaker 1: walking of food patrol in the city and he staggered

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Speaker 1: over to his car blind and got in the car,

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Speaker 1: and I thought, well, that's not good. So you know,

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Speaker 1: it went over. We didn't have technology in those days,

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Speaker 1: so it was like a plastic bag with a glass file.

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Speaker 1: So if you blew into the file and crystals turned

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Speaker 1: green over a certain line, that meant you were probably

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Speaker 1: over the limit. Then you go to a breathalyzer itself. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this guy was so habit he had no idea what

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Speaker 1: was going on.

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Speaker 2: Did you ever have any friends who were going, oh,

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Speaker 2: you can't join the police force?

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Speaker 1: Are you going to change you? I get you know

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Speaker 1: what I mean? I know, mate. No. The only person

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Speaker 1: that was against it was my stepfather, and as a

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Speaker 1: it wasn't a pleasant human being here. After I'd signed

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Speaker 1: up because I had my mother signed the papers, he

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Speaker 1: refused to because he hated cops, and he said, these

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Speaker 1: barses will make you arrest your own mother. You've got

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Speaker 1: to take an oath to say you'll arrest your own mother.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking, okay, I don't think that's quite right, but

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Speaker 1: whatever you think. But there were a lot of people

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Speaker 1: I'd gone to school with. So the last school I

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Speaker 1: was in in Charterstowers, this town near Townsville, so I

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Speaker 1: had friends in there. Yeah, they were pretty encouraging because

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Speaker 1: I think none of them realized how bad my home

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Speaker 1: life was, but they see that I was driven to

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Speaker 1: do something and without seeming like a wanker. I was

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Speaker 1: very bright academically. I had consistently high marks and that

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Speaker 1: was my pathway out. And I could have easily gone

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Speaker 1: into law, but I really wanted to do something that

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Speaker 1: was meaningful. And I certainly didn't join for the money

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Speaker 1: because the pay and the wages.

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Speaker 2: Are you glad that you went down the police force

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Speaker 2: now and so they go into the army, Yeah, I am.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't change a thing. You know, sometimes you think

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Speaker 1: about sliding doors, and I would have gone to Royal

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Speaker 1: Military College, graduated as a lieutenn had gone through all

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Speaker 1: of that stuff. I don't know that I would have

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Speaker 1: been all that happy about the total level of discipline

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Speaker 1: in a military environment, particularly you know, a couple of

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Speaker 1: years after I was sworn and I started undercover working

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Speaker 1: and that changed me completely. Who didn't taste you to

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Speaker 1: do that. Nobody. I had left the beat, gone into

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Speaker 1: patrol and loved this patrol area that you know, it

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Speaker 1: was based on the Los Angeles model. It was one

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Speaker 1: of the progressive things that Queensland Police did. Actually, so

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Speaker 1: you were rostered with a permanent partner. He had permanent

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Speaker 1: patrol areas, very little paperwork to do, and it was

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Speaker 1: just every shift something was on, you know, high speed chasers, arrests,

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Speaker 1: respond to urgent jobs, that sort of stuff. Loved it

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Speaker 1: all the adrenaline, oh yeah, and the camaraderie. And I've

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Speaker 1: reflected a lot on this, you know, since I've gone

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Speaker 1: through my whole on the other side of post traumatic stress.

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Speaker 1: And it was just that tribe, that family, that belonging

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Speaker 1: and I understand guys in bikes gas, I understand because

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Speaker 1: it's about tribe. So I'd found my tribe. None of

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Speaker 1: us wanted to go on and leave because we thought

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Speaker 1: we might miss out and something. So loved it. And

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Speaker 1: then one it was one early evening, had a shots fired.

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Speaker 1: Any unit in the vicinity, call in the city shots fired,

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Speaker 1: always exciting, and so we were racing to this thing

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Speaker 1: and there'd been a one car, a teabone another, and

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Speaker 1: there are all these guys are running around in jeans

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Speaker 1: and stuff and beards and whatever. And I got out

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Speaker 1: and there was a guy in jeans, shitty tatted t shirt,

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Speaker 1: shoulderingked hair, handcuffed, sitting on the ground against a car.

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Speaker 1: And one of these guys raced over and she said

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Speaker 1: were drug squad declared himself, said look, you know, we've

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Speaker 1: had a bit of an incident, got me aside and

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Speaker 1: said listen, take the undercover, grab him, take him back

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Speaker 1: to see headquarters and make it look good. And I

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Speaker 1: thought undercover. Fuck, have we got undercovers? And that was it.

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Speaker 1: I saw that and thought, oh, yeah, I've got to

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Speaker 1: have some of that, because it was just probably two

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Speaker 1: things exciting. And I was at that stage. Man, I

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Speaker 1: was like, oh it was before I turned twenty two.

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Speaker 1: I volunteered for undercover. Wow. I thought, wow, this is

255
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Speaker 1: going to be cool. No haircut regulations. I've got to

256
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Speaker 1: admit that that played a part in it. And so

257
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Speaker 1: through this guy in the back of the car. And

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Speaker 1: as soon as I realized that there were undercovers, I

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Speaker 1: thought boom. So I started making some inquiries, spoke to

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Speaker 1: my boss and uniform said look, I'm keen to have

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Speaker 1: a look at this, and I was a baby face,

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Speaker 1: little guy, you know. And really I think part of

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Speaker 1: the selection process was just get people are as unlikely

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Speaker 1: looking cops as you can.

265
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Speaker 2: I've noticed when I when I used to look at

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Speaker 2: on the cover cops, they walk around, do you know

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Speaker 2: the dress, like you stand out like a bloody tourist,

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Speaker 2: and you know what I mean, Like it's yeah, but.

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Speaker 1: They're not undercover, mate, See, they're cops in playing clothes.

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Speaker 1: So undercover is you literally have an assumed identity and

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Speaker 1: you're living in the criminal world under a cover. You're

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Speaker 1: just not a cop. For how long it takes? Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I only did it for two years and then I

274
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Speaker 1: realized I had to leave because I needed to get

275
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Speaker 1: back to my career. But it's like you just have God, man,

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Speaker 1: I had four assumed identities, four different driver's licenses, bank accounts,

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Speaker 1: ID names, all of that sort of stuff. So that's

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Speaker 1: when you're really living and portraying yourself as either a

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Speaker 1: drug dealer or an robber or a crook or.

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Speaker 2: Some out of the force who would know that you

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Speaker 2: are on the cover.

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Speaker 1: Like this, This is the wild West. Days, right, So

283
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Speaker 1: these days things are completely different. But in those days,

284
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Speaker 1: there were only five of us, I think, and we're

285
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Speaker 1: all young men. There were no women, and the oldest

286
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Speaker 1: of us was maybe twenty five. We designed our own backstories,

287
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Speaker 1: you know, So there was no real system in place.

288
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Speaker 1: So the people that knew you were undercover were the

289
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Speaker 1: drug squad guys that you were working with, of course,

290
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Speaker 1: the other undercover operatives, and some of the people that

291
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Speaker 1: may have known that you've been transferred to the drug

292
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Speaker 1: squad in the cop world. Yeah, I was doing taekwondo

293
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Speaker 1: in those days. I was training four and five days

294
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Speaker 1: a week. So I went to my dojo, call it

295
00:14:11,401 --> 00:14:13,761
Speaker 1: to the people I was training with. I spoke to

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Speaker 1: my sense instructor and said, look, this is what I'm doing.

297
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Speaker 1: I'm going to tell everybody I've been fired from the

298
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Speaker 1: cops because they all need to think that I'm disgraced

299
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Speaker 1: in case they see me out about Okay, So I

300
00:14:25,841 --> 00:14:28,521
Speaker 1: told all of them I'd been fired for drugs. None

301
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Speaker 1: of them believed it because I was this fresh faced

302
00:14:31,961 --> 00:14:37,081
Speaker 1: issues and that all changed, so they thought I was gone.

303
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Speaker 1: They thought I was disgraced. The people I'd been working

304
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Speaker 1: with in the uniform knew that I'd been transferred somewhere,

305
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Speaker 1: they didn't really know where it was. And it's like

306
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Speaker 1: one of those things, I guess when you leave a

307
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Speaker 1: station within three or four months, people go Keith, who why? Yeah?

308
00:14:50,641 --> 00:14:53,721
Speaker 1: I remember that guy? So sort of away from the rain.

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Speaker 1: I didn't tell my mother what I was doing because

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Speaker 1: she worried enough about me being a cop in the

311
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Speaker 1: first place. So it was just just faded away, you know.

312
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Speaker 1: I didn't go to police parties anymore, didn't hang out

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Speaker 1: with cops. I just rode off into the sunset, as

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Speaker 1: it were.

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Speaker 2: So okay, just say, for instance, you've gone in as

316
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Speaker 2: a baking Okay, after you finished, where'd you go? Do

317
00:15:14,921 --> 00:15:17,201
Speaker 2: you go home to your home or you have a place,

318
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Speaker 2: where'd you go?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? So again, in those days, there was no real

320
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Speaker 1: process in place. So I was sharing a unit with

321
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Speaker 1: another cop and I lived there for six months or

322
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Speaker 1: so until I moved out and moved into another undercover.

323
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Speaker 1: But we didn't have a safe house. So if I

324
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Speaker 1: was seeing you, my job was to buy drugs. So

325
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Speaker 1: either through an informal ord introduce me into a circle,

326
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Speaker 1: or I'd meet someone at a pub, or i'd just

327
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Speaker 1: infiltrate an area and get to know people, and then

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Speaker 1: you know, they'd go on my targets. I'd start scoring

329
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Speaker 1: drugs from them, So every time I scored, i'd take

330
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Speaker 1: a really roundabout way to get home. I learned really

331
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Speaker 1: quickly how to drive luos and disurveillance, and there are

332
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Speaker 1: ways you can clean yourself, so you'd clean yourself and

333
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Speaker 1: make sure you're being followed and then go home and

334
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Speaker 1: then i'd write up my notes, vouch of the drugs,

335
00:16:03,441 --> 00:16:06,281
Speaker 1: all that sort of shit. And then we still had

336
00:16:06,321 --> 00:16:10,401
Speaker 1: the requirement to go into the drug squad office maybe

337
00:16:10,441 --> 00:16:12,401
Speaker 1: once a week if we were in Brisbane. So you'd

338
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Speaker 1: sneak your way in through this back car park into

339
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Speaker 1: an old building that no longer exists now and sort

340
00:16:17,681 --> 00:16:19,921
Speaker 1: of sneak your way through the back door. And you

341
00:16:20,081 --> 00:16:21,961
Speaker 1: just had to know how to get into that office.

342
00:16:21,961 --> 00:16:24,641
Speaker 1: And then we'd do a running sheet debrief, do the evidence,

343
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Speaker 1: handover all that and then bugger off of it. But

344
00:16:26,761 --> 00:16:30,201
Speaker 1: often we were generally worked one out and then we'd

345
00:16:30,201 --> 00:16:34,281
Speaker 1: be sent to cans in North Queensland or regional towns

346
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Speaker 1: or wherever that was down the Gold Coast or the

347
00:16:35,961 --> 00:16:39,041
Speaker 1: Sunshine Coast, wherever there was a targeted operation going on,

348
00:16:39,241 --> 00:16:42,361
Speaker 1: and our job was simply to get in there infiltrate it,

349
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Speaker 1: buy drugs, working out the chain. And unlike the movies,

350
00:16:46,721 --> 00:16:49,921
Speaker 1: there was no surveillance, there's no backup. You were just

351
00:16:50,321 --> 00:16:53,481
Speaker 1: by yourself. There's nothing, none of that. Oh, very rarely

352
00:16:53,681 --> 00:16:56,281
Speaker 1: you'd wear a wire on a buy bust. So if

353
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Speaker 1: i'd been working on you say, and I'd been buying

354
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Speaker 1: herold and I got very good at buying smack, and

355
00:17:00,441 --> 00:17:02,321
Speaker 1: there's a lot of spackering in those days, we'd get

356
00:17:02,321 --> 00:17:04,360
Speaker 1: to a stage where I'd work out cart to buy

357
00:17:04,361 --> 00:17:06,920
Speaker 1: an ounce, I want to buy five ounces, which in

358
00:17:06,921 --> 00:17:09,680
Speaker 1: those days was a lot of money. You trusted me,

359
00:17:09,801 --> 00:17:12,321
Speaker 1: we'd done business. Before we'd set up the meat. You'd

360
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,360
Speaker 1: have the gear, I'd have the money. That's when i'd

361
00:17:14,360 --> 00:17:17,321
Speaker 1: have a wire, and that's when surveillance would be And

362
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,120
Speaker 1: then they'd burst in on a code word and arrest

363
00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,561
Speaker 1: us both and take us away. The problem was, after

364
00:17:23,561 --> 00:17:26,521
Speaker 1: every operation was over, the drug squad would then tell

365
00:17:26,561 --> 00:17:28,961
Speaker 1: all the targets they'd been selling to an undercover cop

366
00:17:29,561 --> 00:17:32,321
Speaker 1: and use my real name, and so you've been selling

367
00:17:32,360 --> 00:17:35,641
Speaker 1: to playing close Constable Keith Banks who was an undercover

368
00:17:35,681 --> 00:17:38,440
Speaker 1: agent with a drug squad, so the cover was blown

369
00:17:38,481 --> 00:17:41,721
Speaker 1: after every op. Oh my god. Yeah, so think about that.

370
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Speaker 1: So you've got if I did a job, say in Brisbane,

371
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Speaker 1: and the next job I did would be in North Queensland,

372
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Speaker 1: so we'd have to change our appearance. So I went

373
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Speaker 1: through had this massive, big black beard, then I trimmed

374
00:17:55,321 --> 00:17:57,561
Speaker 1: into a goady. Then I'd trimmed in a mustache. I'd

375
00:17:57,600 --> 00:17:59,840
Speaker 1: get my hair cut a different way, get my hair

376
00:17:59,961 --> 00:18:02,400
Speaker 1: died blonde, to getting all that shit you had to

377
00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:05,880
Speaker 1: try to do to disguise your parents, and you're still

378
00:18:05,921 --> 00:18:07,321
Speaker 1: you know, there were still a few times where I

379
00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,721
Speaker 1: was recognized by either people are busted before, or people

380
00:18:11,801 --> 00:18:14,961
Speaker 1: are gone to school with or cops. You know. So

381
00:18:15,481 --> 00:18:17,801
Speaker 1: really to think quickly on your feet.

382
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:20,121
Speaker 2: When you're going into a job like this, how long

383
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:22,440
Speaker 2: you have to study the person or the game that

384
00:18:22,481 --> 00:18:23,241
Speaker 2: you're going in for.

385
00:18:24,041 --> 00:18:27,720
Speaker 1: We'd get we get target profiles. Say, for instance, if

386
00:18:27,761 --> 00:18:30,480
Speaker 1: I was sent to Townsville, here's your job operation X

387
00:18:30,561 --> 00:18:33,840
Speaker 1: y Z center Townsville, here's your target list. So they'd

388
00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,561
Speaker 1: be photographs, there'd bemo like, they'd be criminal histories, so

389
00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,640
Speaker 1: you'd know who the family were, so you studied that

390
00:18:40,721 --> 00:18:42,840
Speaker 1: as best you could, but it was up to us

391
00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,880
Speaker 1: to figure out how we got in there unless we

392
00:18:44,921 --> 00:18:47,481
Speaker 1: had an informer who was working with us. And generally

393
00:18:47,921 --> 00:18:51,001
Speaker 1: guys who are informing introducing us into the circle were

394
00:18:51,041 --> 00:18:53,761
Speaker 1: either working off a jail sentence so they get a

395
00:18:53,801 --> 00:18:57,321
Speaker 1: lot of or they were just knocking out the opposition. Wow,

396
00:18:57,441 --> 00:18:59,920
Speaker 1: you know, so they were good dealers themselves, Like, fuck this,

397
00:18:59,961 --> 00:19:03,761
Speaker 1: I'm going to introduce this undercover into to Nil's syndicate,

398
00:19:04,001 --> 00:19:05,920
Speaker 1: knock him off, he gets jail, and I'll get an

399
00:19:05,961 --> 00:19:10,561
Speaker 1: open market. But for all its faults, it was a

400
00:19:10,561 --> 00:19:14,080
Speaker 1: pretty exciting career because fear, and I've written this in

401
00:19:14,080 --> 00:19:17,321
Speaker 1: one of my books, Fear an adrenaline. I had blood brothers,

402
00:19:18,281 --> 00:19:21,001
Speaker 1: and adrenaline is one of the most addictive drugs you

403
00:19:21,041 --> 00:19:25,961
Speaker 1: can have. And every time I was walking into sometimes

404
00:19:25,961 --> 00:19:28,960
Speaker 1: it was into clubhouses they set up some deals. Sometimes

405
00:19:28,961 --> 00:19:31,921
Speaker 1: it was in pubs, sometimes it was private houses. I'd

406
00:19:31,961 --> 00:19:34,961
Speaker 1: always have that fear and then bang, this whole wave

407
00:19:35,001 --> 00:19:37,161
Speaker 1: of adrenaline, and that was pretty cool.

408
00:19:38,360 --> 00:19:41,201
Speaker 2: I get it. Okay, you're walking in there, but you're

409
00:19:41,201 --> 00:19:43,761
Speaker 2: trying to keep cool as a person. You're trying to

410
00:19:44,001 --> 00:19:46,360
Speaker 2: be but you're also Keith Banks.

411
00:19:46,561 --> 00:19:49,041
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and you've got.

412
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,041
Speaker 2: To now put on an image where you've got to

413
00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:54,121
Speaker 2: walk like a Baker, you got to act like one.

414
00:19:54,201 --> 00:19:57,321
Speaker 1: But you're also Keith Banks. And I'm not a big guy.

415
00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,640
Speaker 1: So I was in those days. I was maybe seventy kilos.

416
00:20:00,721 --> 00:20:03,441
Speaker 1: Yeah it's pretty wiry and pretty fit, but seventy k's

417
00:20:03,721 --> 00:20:06,641
Speaker 1: So I couldn't be an imposing tough guy. A couple

418
00:20:06,681 --> 00:20:10,200
Speaker 1: of situations things had to happen, sure, but my way

419
00:20:10,441 --> 00:20:12,920
Speaker 1: of dealing with that was, I'm in this for money.

420
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:14,921
Speaker 1: I'm going to be doing this shit for a few years.

421
00:20:14,961 --> 00:20:16,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to make a lot of money, and then

422
00:20:16,201 --> 00:20:19,001
Speaker 1: I'm going to fuck off somewhere in the overseas. So

423
00:20:19,041 --> 00:20:20,920
Speaker 1: you don't have to be a tough guy. And a

424
00:20:20,921 --> 00:20:24,121
Speaker 1: lot of people I dealt with respected a business head,

425
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:26,840
Speaker 1: even though I was young. I could talk about margins.

426
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,001
Speaker 1: I could talk about the gear I was buying, how

427
00:20:29,041 --> 00:20:30,641
Speaker 1: many times it's going to step on it, What money

428
00:20:30,681 --> 00:20:32,880
Speaker 1: I'm going to make out, you know what percentage I'm

429
00:20:32,921 --> 00:20:34,720
Speaker 1: probably going to get out of, blah blah blah. So

430
00:20:35,241 --> 00:20:38,001
Speaker 1: when you can sit and talk business with people, you

431
00:20:38,041 --> 00:20:40,241
Speaker 1: get more respect out of that from being a tough guy,

432
00:20:40,281 --> 00:20:43,600
Speaker 1: I reckon, but I had to change my whole personality

433
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,761
Speaker 1: a spot on. When I first started, there was another

434
00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:49,481
Speaker 1: undercover guy and who sadly was killed in a road

435
00:20:49,521 --> 00:20:52,361
Speaker 1: accident in eighty six, became one of my best buddies.

436
00:20:52,801 --> 00:20:55,001
Speaker 1: And I had a cup of coffee about day three

437
00:20:55,120 --> 00:20:57,241
Speaker 1: or something, and he sort of taught me a little

438
00:20:57,241 --> 00:21:00,400
Speaker 1: bit and he said, Man, it's so fucking nice. Stop

439
00:21:00,481 --> 00:21:03,801
Speaker 1: being so fucking nice. Use the word kund a lot

440
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,001
Speaker 1: more fucking just And I'm thinking I'm a polite guy.

441
00:21:07,120 --> 00:21:10,440
Speaker 1: So I had to lose all of that. But that

442
00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,281
Speaker 1: becomes appealing as well, because you can reinvent your whole

443
00:21:14,281 --> 00:21:18,561
Speaker 1: personality with no consequence. Once I tapped into that, like

444
00:21:18,681 --> 00:21:22,680
Speaker 1: I can absolutely be a complete preckable one. This is

445
00:21:22,721 --> 00:21:25,801
Speaker 1: pretty good. It was really good. And one of the

446
00:21:25,801 --> 00:21:29,041
Speaker 1: other guys to Cloud and compared it to Nider. He said,

447
00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,561
Speaker 1: make work an undercover. It's like Nier on steroids. The

448
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,561
Speaker 1: difference is, if an actor gets a bad review, it's

449
00:21:35,561 --> 00:21:38,121
Speaker 1: his feelings hurt. We get a bad review, we get

450
00:21:38,120 --> 00:21:41,481
Speaker 1: a fucking baseball battleround here. So you've got to really

451
00:21:41,681 --> 00:21:45,321
Speaker 1: mesh yourself into the role and again that was pretty

452
00:21:45,321 --> 00:21:47,681
Speaker 1: exciting for a twenty two year old kid because I'd

453
00:21:47,721 --> 00:21:50,401
Speaker 1: gone from that two years in the academy left right, yes, sir,

454
00:21:50,481 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 1: no sir, three years on the road as a cop

455
00:21:53,321 --> 00:21:57,961
Speaker 1: to no rules, no supervision, no rules, just do your

456
00:21:57,961 --> 00:22:01,441
Speaker 1: shit and let us know when it's done. So we

457
00:22:01,441 --> 00:22:03,761
Speaker 1: were all armed, always carried carried a little firearm with

458
00:22:04,001 --> 00:22:07,400
Speaker 1: like a semi automatic, and you never searched. They just

459
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 1: thought it was yours anyway. No, see, there were a

460
00:22:09,441 --> 00:22:11,321
Speaker 1: couple of times where I declared it. So it was

461
00:22:11,321 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 1: in a particular meeting buying a fair bit of smack.

462
00:22:14,241 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 1: The guy that was buying it from pulled out a

463
00:22:16,321 --> 00:22:18,721
Speaker 1: nine milt, which pretty shitty, and I pulled mine out

464
00:22:18,721 --> 00:22:23,041
Speaker 1: and he went, oh fuck man, I buy out. Sorry,

465
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,321
Speaker 1: mine hurt their eyes off it. But otherwise it was

466
00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:29,161
Speaker 1: just so. The pistolo carry was a twenty five caliber

467
00:22:29,321 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 1: Browning I think, which was tiny, which sat fitted into

468
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,880
Speaker 1: my jocks or fitted in the bottom of a boot,

469
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:40,001
Speaker 1: so very unusual to be searched often in those days.

470
00:22:40,241 --> 00:22:43,360
Speaker 1: People when they were, and some of them were, I

471
00:22:43,521 --> 00:22:45,801
Speaker 1: just go, I think you're a nark. Oh fuck you, man,

472
00:22:46,001 --> 00:22:48,321
Speaker 1: I'm a nark. That's fine, I'm leaving. You clearly don't

473
00:22:48,321 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 1: want this, and I'd pull out a water cash and

474
00:22:50,921 --> 00:22:53,521
Speaker 1: suddenly all of their concerns had melted away when they'd

475
00:22:53,521 --> 00:22:56,961
Speaker 1: see the dollars. So you just learned how to talk

476
00:22:57,001 --> 00:23:00,321
Speaker 1: yourself out of things and know when to walk away.

477
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:02,880
Speaker 1: You just read a vibe of a room. But you

478
00:23:02,961 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 1: must have got good. Well, you didn't get good at it.

479
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,201
Speaker 1: You you were good at your job on the cover.

480
00:23:07,961 --> 00:23:10,920
Speaker 1: Did you ever go so deep into this on the

481
00:23:10,921 --> 00:23:12,840
Speaker 1: cover that you're fuck, I'm good at this? Do you

482
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,281
Speaker 1: either side? It doesn't look too bad. And I'll tell

483
00:23:17,281 --> 00:23:20,400
Speaker 1: you what if a UC said that he or she

484
00:23:20,521 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 1: didn't think about that, they'd be lying, because yeah, it

485
00:23:23,801 --> 00:23:25,721
Speaker 1: got There were a few times I thought, man, I

486
00:23:25,761 --> 00:23:27,961
Speaker 1: could make some money, I could do this for a living.

487
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 1: But then I remembered while I went in there in

488
00:23:29,721 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 1: the first place. And in the late seventies, the flood

489
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,761
Speaker 1: of heroin into Australia was overwhelming. It was through the

490
00:23:35,801 --> 00:23:38,041
Speaker 1: myster Agius and you get through Tomstrong clerk. It was

491
00:23:38,041 --> 00:23:41,321
Speaker 1: a New Zealander and the quality of smack on the

492
00:23:41,360 --> 00:23:44,961
Speaker 1: street was generally around three to five percent pure heroin.

493
00:23:45,241 --> 00:23:48,521
Speaker 1: The rest is all additives. It jumped up to around

494
00:23:48,561 --> 00:23:51,481
Speaker 1: ten to fifteen percent, because it was just pure shit

495
00:23:51,561 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: coming from the Golden Triangle, and we were going to

496
00:23:54,120 --> 00:23:57,281
Speaker 1: Od's every day, literally every day of a uniform shit.

497
00:23:57,360 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 1: Someone had spiked up and died, either in a house

498
00:23:59,921 --> 00:24:02,321
Speaker 1: or a pub, or a toilet, or sometimes in a park,

499
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,360
Speaker 1: And I remember thinking how evil that drugs. And I

500
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:10,001
Speaker 1: still hold that view, although interestingly i'd become an advocate

501
00:24:10,001 --> 00:24:12,601
Speaker 1: to legalized cannabis all these years later. I'm a huge

502
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:17,120
Speaker 1: advocate for that for other reasons. But whenever that temptation

503
00:24:17,321 --> 00:24:20,281
Speaker 1: came up, you've got to have a moral compass, you know.

504
00:24:20,321 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: I was a cop for a reason, and I didn't

505
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,561
Speaker 1: want to go to the dark side. A couple of

506
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,921
Speaker 1: my friends did. They did. Yeah, Yeah. I had one

507
00:24:27,961 --> 00:24:30,281
Speaker 1: friend in particular, who I've written about in the opening

508
00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:34,120
Speaker 1: chapter from her first book, Harry. He'd started undercover practicing

509
00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:39,361
Speaker 1: sheeheight Muslim. Within I think nine months or something, he

510
00:24:39,441 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 1: used some smack so injected on a job where he

511
00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:45,321
Speaker 1: was in a situation where he had to and had

512
00:24:45,321 --> 00:24:48,761
Speaker 1: an incredibly addictive personality, got a habit, kept using it

513
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:50,761
Speaker 1: when he left and went back to uniform as a cop.

514
00:24:51,681 --> 00:24:55,001
Speaker 1: Those in control quietly kicked him to the curb and

515
00:24:55,001 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 1: paid him out without any publicity. And then he put

516
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,640
Speaker 1: it up his arm and became an armed robber because

517
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,561
Speaker 1: he needed to feed. He needed money to feed that

518
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:06,761
Speaker 1: Habit ended up going to Jile and Adelaide and Brisbane, Yeah,

519
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,120
Speaker 1: and survive. So that was my next question to you.

520
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:12,721
Speaker 2: What would happen if you're you're big in the deal

521
00:25:13,201 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 2: with the dealer that you're targeting, and he wants you

522
00:25:17,360 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 2: to go out with him or try some of the

523
00:25:18,961 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 2: stuff and you decline to do it. Yeah, wouldn't they

524
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 2: get a bit if you're fishy about that?

525
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,321
Speaker 1: No, because from day one I'd say, I'm in this

526
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:27,481
Speaker 1: ship and the money. It's up to you whether you

527
00:25:27,521 --> 00:25:29,720
Speaker 1: want to shoot up none of my bills, but I

528
00:25:29,761 --> 00:25:32,640
Speaker 1: don't use it. I don't do any powders. I'll have

529
00:25:32,681 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 1: a joint. Yeah, I have a couple of giants now problem,

530
00:25:35,001 --> 00:25:37,801
Speaker 1: but I don't touch powders. Okay, that was a real one.

531
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,240
Speaker 1: And you know because I've been I've been forced to

532
00:25:41,241 --> 00:25:43,641
Speaker 1: do a couple of lines of speed at gunpoint when

533
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,521
Speaker 1: I had about three months undercover. I guess, Yeah, went

534
00:25:46,561 --> 00:25:48,001
Speaker 1: to score from this guy, and he was off his

535
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,561
Speaker 1: nut and I said, I don't use me. Then he

536
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:52,801
Speaker 1: produced a coach gun, a double barrel shot. He put

537
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: on the table cock both hammers back and said, fucking

538
00:25:54,880 --> 00:26:00,360
Speaker 1: do a line or shoot you okay? And I was.

539
00:26:00,561 --> 00:26:02,801
Speaker 1: I was off my nut for nine or ten hours,

540
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,561
Speaker 1: and when I came down, it came down hard. And

541
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:07,640
Speaker 1: that's when I thought, right, that's never going to happen again,

542
00:26:07,761 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 1: because you know, I just say to people, speed fucks

543
00:26:10,721 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: me up, don't want to do that shit, don't want

544
00:26:12,801 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 1: to touch heroin. I make money out of this, and

545
00:26:15,001 --> 00:26:16,561
Speaker 1: as I said before, my plan is going to do

546
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,281
Speaker 1: this for three years, four years. I'm going to fuck

547
00:26:19,321 --> 00:26:21,961
Speaker 1: off overseas and live in Thailand. And what I found was,

548
00:26:22,001 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: I declared that up front that was an understood but

549
00:26:25,120 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 1: there were other ucs like Harry, that for whatever reason,

550
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,041
Speaker 1: found themselves in a position where they had to put

551
00:26:30,041 --> 00:26:30,641
Speaker 1: a needle in their.

552
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,401
Speaker 2: Own I read that you were nearly caught one day

553
00:26:34,001 --> 00:26:35,441
Speaker 2: because someone called it your name.

554
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,801
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it was. Well. A couple of times things happened,

555
00:26:38,801 --> 00:26:40,880
Speaker 1: you know. Some guy did a check on my number

556
00:26:40,921 --> 00:26:42,961
Speaker 1: plates that were false plates and called me out in

557
00:26:43,001 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: a biking pub in Oh really yeah, And that was

558
00:26:46,921 --> 00:26:48,600
Speaker 1: that's when you've got to think on your feet. And

559
00:26:48,961 --> 00:26:51,360
Speaker 1: i'd been scoring for him for a while. Meet me

560
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: in this pub. It's called a Regard the Raw Exchange

561
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 1: of Brisi, and it was a favorite place of the rebels,

562
00:26:56,241 --> 00:26:59,281
Speaker 1: I think. And so, you know, be a garden. There's

563
00:26:59,321 --> 00:27:03,120
Speaker 1: people everywhere. People are scoring, people are selling, you know,

564
00:27:03,241 --> 00:27:06,041
Speaker 1: club members are sitting there drink and doingusiness whatever. And

565
00:27:06,041 --> 00:27:08,321
Speaker 1: this guy said, I think you're a fucking nah because

566
00:27:08,360 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: I've checked your number plates and they're false. And the

567
00:27:11,441 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: immediate reaction I had as I just stood up and

568
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:16,961
Speaker 1: screened at him and said, how the fucking you check

569
00:27:17,041 --> 00:27:19,081
Speaker 1: number plates? You can't. You're working for the fairs, you're

570
00:27:19,120 --> 00:27:21,881
Speaker 1: a fucking dog, you're a fucking cop, you're fucking blah

571
00:27:21,921 --> 00:27:24,321
Speaker 1: blah blah. And he went, oh, no, calm down, come down,

572
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,241
Speaker 1: So get fuck motherfucker. So pushed my way out, and

573
00:27:27,241 --> 00:27:30,521
Speaker 1: I remember I'm about probably seventy two kilos by then,

574
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,881
Speaker 1: but I thought, if I have to elbow strike him,

575
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: going to do it? If you know, I've been training

576
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:36,521
Speaker 1: in martial arts for a long time, and I thought,

577
00:27:36,561 --> 00:27:38,561
Speaker 1: you know, throat punch form and I fucking forced my

578
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 1: way out, got to my car, had the keys in

579
00:27:41,441 --> 00:27:44,321
Speaker 1: my hand, and I was so full of adrenaline my

580
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,721
Speaker 1: hands were shaking so much. Two years over the cardboard.

581
00:27:49,481 --> 00:27:51,281
Speaker 1: So we had a conversation a couple of days later,

582
00:27:51,321 --> 00:27:52,760
Speaker 1: and I threatened to break his legs, and all that

583
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,201
Speaker 1: was sorted out because again you've got to beat the PERSONA. Yeah,

584
00:27:56,281 --> 00:28:00,001
Speaker 1: So the one where someone called me name, I'd left undercover.

585
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:01,881
Speaker 1: I'd gone back to the drug squad as a young

586
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,561
Speaker 1: junior detective, and then I was sent to Key to

587
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:09,240
Speaker 1: be a handler for a UC in Cans That was

588
00:28:09,241 --> 00:28:11,081
Speaker 1: my mate Larry, and he'd been in for way too

589
00:28:11,120 --> 00:28:13,441
Speaker 1: long and his nerves were shot. So I just jumped

590
00:28:13,441 --> 00:28:15,321
Speaker 1: straight back into the UC role with him because it

591
00:28:15,360 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 1: was kind of cool to do. Any we'd waked a

592
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:19,680
Speaker 1: way through a target list. We're in a nightclub in

593
00:28:19,761 --> 00:28:22,081
Speaker 1: Cans and so I've got to be a long here

594
00:28:22,120 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 1: and with the other UC, and we had the target

595
00:28:24,241 --> 00:28:27,001
Speaker 1: with us, and we found out later the target was

596
00:28:27,201 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 1: an escapee from Yattler Prison in Adelaide and he was

597
00:28:29,681 --> 00:28:32,041
Speaker 1: doing time for a double murder. Wow, And didn't know

598
00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: that at the time Anyways, Orders and drinks and the bar.

599
00:28:34,761 --> 00:28:37,120
Speaker 1: The barman came over who I'd gone to school with,

600
00:28:37,441 --> 00:28:40,440
Speaker 1: and I recognized him immediately thought he won't remember me.

601
00:28:41,881 --> 00:28:43,601
Speaker 1: Three running cokes or whatever it was. He looked at

602
00:28:43,601 --> 00:28:45,240
Speaker 1: me and went, hey, Keith, how are you doing? And

603
00:28:45,321 --> 00:28:47,881
Speaker 1: I thought, fuck, my name is not Keith, it's not

604
00:28:47,881 --> 00:28:51,401
Speaker 1: the name I'm using. So I just had to again

605
00:28:51,521 --> 00:28:54,001
Speaker 1: jump right on the front foot call him a dickhead,

606
00:28:54,481 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: got the wrong guy, Give us how fucking drinks you

607
00:28:56,481 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: know it, don't make me come over and sort you out.

608
00:28:58,041 --> 00:29:01,041
Speaker 1: Blah blah blah. And the target I remember, I looked

609
00:29:01,041 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: at him and he and I've said this often and

610
00:29:03,761 --> 00:29:07,041
Speaker 1: he still chills me. He had eyes like Charles Manson,

611
00:29:07,481 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: just those dark, soulless, evil eyes, and he gave me

612
00:29:11,801 --> 00:29:14,521
Speaker 1: that look, and I thought, fuck with something about this guy.

613
00:29:15,241 --> 00:29:18,041
Speaker 1: And anyway, we sorted it out that night. But I

614
00:29:18,121 --> 00:29:21,081
Speaker 1: went back into the bar and spoke to this guy

615
00:29:21,121 --> 00:29:23,681
Speaker 1: and said, mate, this is what I'm doing, so you

616
00:29:23,681 --> 00:29:26,881
Speaker 1: know you've you've blown the cover. And he was pretty good.

617
00:29:26,921 --> 00:29:30,281
Speaker 1: He said, okay, easy, look, bring him back tonight. I'll

618
00:29:30,281 --> 00:29:32,081
Speaker 1: make a fuss over you guys. I'll give you a

619
00:29:32,081 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 1: free piss, I'll apologize or grovel, which is exactly what

620
00:29:36,281 --> 00:29:39,361
Speaker 1: we did. And the target thought that was fantastic because

621
00:29:39,721 --> 00:29:41,881
Speaker 1: him feel pretty powerful. And at the end of the

622
00:29:41,961 --> 00:29:44,241
Speaker 1: job it came to light that he was an escaped

623
00:29:44,241 --> 00:29:47,361
Speaker 1: old murderer. I'd been setting up to buy one hundred

624
00:29:47,401 --> 00:29:50,161
Speaker 1: pounds of dope from him, which was pretty good score

625
00:29:50,321 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: it probably still is these days. He was setting me

626
00:29:52,761 --> 00:29:56,081
Speaker 1: up to kill me for the money. Really yeah, yeah,

627
00:29:56,121 --> 00:29:58,601
Speaker 1: And when when he was arrested in interviewed, he said, yeah,

628
00:29:58,601 --> 00:30:00,721
Speaker 1: I was going to kill him, and the detective in

629
00:30:00,801 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: charge came out and told me. I said, well, fuck me.

630
00:30:02,521 --> 00:30:08,801
Speaker 1: I thought we were mates if I can hell yeah wow. Yeah.

631
00:30:07,881 --> 00:30:11,441
Speaker 2: So what's the scariest moment you've ever been put in

632
00:30:11,441 --> 00:30:12,121
Speaker 2: in that position?

633
00:30:12,561 --> 00:30:14,921
Speaker 1: The scariest one was not being recognized. It was none

634
00:30:14,921 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 1: of that. It was when I thought I was going

635
00:30:16,321 --> 00:30:20,361
Speaker 1: to get ripped off, and well really yeah. So the

636
00:30:20,441 --> 00:30:22,681
Speaker 1: thing in the drug world is, as you see, you're

637
00:30:22,721 --> 00:30:25,601
Speaker 1: worried about your cover being blown, or you're worried about

638
00:30:25,601 --> 00:30:30,601
Speaker 1: being recognized. Yeap. Unlikely that anybody would kill a cop

639
00:30:30,681 --> 00:30:32,801
Speaker 1: because if they did, that had really draw the crabs

640
00:30:32,801 --> 00:30:36,921
Speaker 1: on them, particularly in those days, they'd be revenge yeah,

641
00:30:37,081 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: you know, unlikely they'd make it to court. That was

642
00:30:39,241 --> 00:30:41,721
Speaker 1: back in the age. But the big danger was getting ripped.

643
00:30:42,041 --> 00:30:45,081
Speaker 1: So if your cover was as good as it was,

644
00:30:45,241 --> 00:30:47,521
Speaker 1: and people genuinely thought you were a dealer and you

645
00:30:47,561 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: had a lot of cash, they wouldn't think twice about

646
00:30:50,721 --> 00:30:52,521
Speaker 1: putting a bullet in your head or cutting your throat

647
00:30:52,521 --> 00:30:54,961
Speaker 1: and ripping you off. And I was in a deal

648
00:30:55,081 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: one night with a couple of guys and I was alone,

649
00:30:58,241 --> 00:31:00,521
Speaker 1: and there was just this whole vibe about Okay, so

650
00:31:00,521 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 1: I where's the cash? Okaysh is nearby. Well, you know

651
00:31:03,641 --> 00:31:05,641
Speaker 1: we need to see the cash first day, Yeah, we do.

652
00:31:05,961 --> 00:31:08,161
Speaker 1: And I got this vibe like, fuck, these guys are

653
00:31:08,161 --> 00:31:10,881
Speaker 1: going to rip me off. That's when I started shooting

654
00:31:10,881 --> 00:31:13,361
Speaker 1: myself and I thought, I've got my little pistol with me,

655
00:31:14,201 --> 00:31:17,001
Speaker 1: looked at the doors, looked at the windows, and thought,

656
00:31:17,241 --> 00:31:18,961
Speaker 1: I'm going to have to bite my way out of here.

657
00:31:19,681 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: Then I made an excuse to go, okay, well I've

658
00:31:21,521 --> 00:31:23,361
Speaker 1: got to go and see my money. Man. We'll have

659
00:31:23,401 --> 00:31:26,041
Speaker 1: the money back here in half an hour. Wow. Then

660
00:31:26,081 --> 00:31:28,321
Speaker 1: I fucked off and didn't come back. And there was

661
00:31:28,361 --> 00:31:33,241
Speaker 1: another where I'd arrested a guy in Brisbane for domestic violence.

662
00:31:33,281 --> 00:31:35,241
Speaker 1: He'd been bashing his girlfriend by the side of the

663
00:31:35,321 --> 00:31:38,641
Speaker 1: road neighbor's core. We turned up, arrested him, took him

664
00:31:38,641 --> 00:31:40,321
Speaker 1: to the watchhouse and he put on a bit of

665
00:31:40,361 --> 00:31:42,161
Speaker 1: a turn and swung at me. So I belted him

666
00:31:42,201 --> 00:31:45,521
Speaker 1: and broke his nose. And then about three years after that,

667
00:31:46,281 --> 00:31:49,161
Speaker 1: I'm sitting in a house in Brisbane, in a suburb

668
00:31:49,161 --> 00:31:52,161
Speaker 1: of Brisbane, I set up a five pound dope deal

669
00:31:52,401 --> 00:31:54,921
Speaker 1: and I was talking to the woman in there about

670
00:31:54,961 --> 00:31:57,321
Speaker 1: you know, arranging the money, blah blah blah. Knock at

671
00:31:57,321 --> 00:31:59,721
Speaker 1: the door. She goes over and opens the door. It's

672
00:31:59,761 --> 00:32:02,521
Speaker 1: this guy. Oh my god, the fuck. And I looked

673
00:32:02,521 --> 00:32:05,440
Speaker 1: different cause I had shouldering hair. Yeah, anyway, And he

674
00:32:05,481 --> 00:32:07,601
Speaker 1: looked at me and I said, yeah, I go mate

675
00:32:07,601 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: with Jim whatever my name was. He goes, yeah, I'm

676
00:32:10,241 --> 00:32:13,481
Speaker 1: such and such. We met before. It's nah made nah,

677
00:32:13,521 --> 00:32:15,161
Speaker 1: And he kept looking. He said, fuck, I know you

678
00:32:15,201 --> 00:32:17,761
Speaker 1: from somewhere. I'm thinking you know me all right, And

679
00:32:18,641 --> 00:32:20,681
Speaker 1: there was no surveilence, there was nothing. So I'm in

680
00:32:20,681 --> 00:32:24,161
Speaker 1: this house again alone, and the woman who was making

681
00:32:24,161 --> 00:32:26,321
Speaker 1: the drug deal said she'd offered me a beer before

682
00:32:26,321 --> 00:32:29,481
Speaker 1: and went nap. I said, actually, yeah, I'll have that beer. Yeah. Sure.

683
00:32:29,801 --> 00:32:31,521
Speaker 1: So she came out and he's just he's sitting there

684
00:32:31,561 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: looking at me with another guy. He was with her

685
00:32:33,561 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: was pretty tough crook, and I could just feel his

686
00:32:35,481 --> 00:32:37,641
Speaker 1: eyes on me, right. So she brought out the beer

687
00:32:37,721 --> 00:32:39,681
Speaker 1: in a like a glass with a handle on it.

688
00:32:40,001 --> 00:32:42,601
Speaker 1: There's those good good So I got the beer and

689
00:32:42,601 --> 00:32:44,121
Speaker 1: I had it on my hand because I thought, if

690
00:32:44,161 --> 00:32:48,121
Speaker 1: you recognize, I'm going to smash it. I'm gonna fucking

691
00:32:48,161 --> 00:32:50,401
Speaker 1: throw her chair through the window and I'm gone. And

692
00:32:50,441 --> 00:32:52,001
Speaker 1: he kept looking. I was I was seeing you in

693
00:32:52,041 --> 00:32:54,361
Speaker 1: a pub, so you don't look for me in you

694
00:32:54,401 --> 00:32:56,161
Speaker 1: to me? Mate, we haven't fucking met her, right, And

695
00:32:56,201 --> 00:32:58,761
Speaker 1: he was a pretty big, tough guy, and I was

696
00:32:58,801 --> 00:33:02,081
Speaker 1: shitting myself. So I'm having this beer anyway. He was

697
00:33:02,081 --> 00:33:04,321
Speaker 1: there to score some heroin or some smack from her.

698
00:33:04,721 --> 00:33:08,121
Speaker 1: So he's bought a couple of street deals, then shot

699
00:33:08,241 --> 00:33:10,041
Speaker 1: up and as he's sitting there, he shot up and

700
00:33:10,041 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 1: he's gone on the nod. I thought, thank fuck, and

701
00:33:12,761 --> 00:33:14,641
Speaker 1: he's looked at me. He's gone. So, man, you're here

702
00:33:14,641 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 1: to do some business And I said, yeah I am.

703
00:33:16,641 --> 00:33:18,681
Speaker 1: He said, so you want to buy this, and he

704
00:33:18,761 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: pulls five buddhisticks out of his jacket. Yeah, sure, I'll

705
00:33:21,961 --> 00:33:26,241
Speaker 1: buy him. And at the end of the operation when

706
00:33:26,241 --> 00:33:28,081
Speaker 1: everyone was arrested, Yeah, he was sitting in the in

707
00:33:28,121 --> 00:33:30,841
Speaker 1: the room and tell him yeah, yeah, because they walked

708
00:33:30,881 --> 00:33:32,921
Speaker 1: and that was the other part of the job. They'd say,

709
00:33:32,961 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 1: you know, do you want the undercover agent to be

710
00:33:34,761 --> 00:33:37,001
Speaker 1: here so you can recognize him? And he said yeah,

711
00:33:37,241 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: So I walked and I said good. He said, I

712
00:33:39,561 --> 00:33:42,281
Speaker 1: fucking you. I knew you. I'm sure you to laugh

713
00:33:42,281 --> 00:33:45,161
Speaker 1: about it, but they're the sorts of things that you

714
00:33:45,321 --> 00:33:49,281
Speaker 1: just you don't really see coming, particularly the rip off,

715
00:33:49,321 --> 00:33:50,801
Speaker 1: you know that. I just thought, man, I'm going to

716
00:33:50,801 --> 00:33:53,001
Speaker 1: get killed over money here. But you've never had to

717
00:33:53,041 --> 00:33:56,441
Speaker 1: draw you anytime, not undercover, No, no. Later in my career,

718
00:33:56,521 --> 00:33:58,481
Speaker 1: sure well you did. Yeah. Yeah, I've been in a

719
00:33:58,521 --> 00:34:00,761
Speaker 1: couple of shootings. Yeah. That was in the tactical world.

720
00:34:00,961 --> 00:34:03,041
Speaker 1: Went into the criminal adverts so c IB as a

721
00:34:03,241 --> 00:34:07,361
Speaker 1: junior detective and then again adrenaline. Mate, I needed adrenaline,

722
00:34:07,681 --> 00:34:11,001
Speaker 1: so I volunteered for the technical Operations area so in

723
00:34:11,001 --> 00:34:14,281
Speaker 1: those days take response and became an operator with them

724
00:34:14,401 --> 00:34:15,921
Speaker 1: for wow eight years.

725
00:34:16,281 --> 00:34:18,441
Speaker 2: Did you just get bored of the undercover or was

726
00:34:18,481 --> 00:34:20,881
Speaker 2: it just like too much? It was mentally fucking your head.

727
00:34:21,041 --> 00:34:22,481
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was fucking with me a bit. And I

728
00:34:22,561 --> 00:34:25,401
Speaker 1: knew that my personality I changed completely. It had gone

729
00:34:25,441 --> 00:34:27,601
Speaker 1: from a teetotal I didn't drink at all too. I

730
00:34:27,641 --> 00:34:30,521
Speaker 1: was smashing scotch and so it was up because of

731
00:34:30,561 --> 00:34:33,721
Speaker 1: the stress and the what and the lifestyle. Yeah, so

732
00:34:33,761 --> 00:34:35,201
Speaker 1: you're trying to keep up with that. So I just

733
00:34:35,281 --> 00:34:37,601
Speaker 1: really got into it. Yeah. It took over, didn't It

734
00:34:37,681 --> 00:34:39,321
Speaker 1: took over me? Yeah? Yeah, And I was I was

735
00:34:39,401 --> 00:34:42,881
Speaker 1: changing my identity as a person, I guess, and also

736
00:34:42,921 --> 00:34:45,241
Speaker 1: my career. And I thought, yeah, I'm gonna I thought

737
00:34:45,281 --> 00:34:47,601
Speaker 1: I'd be a lifetime cop. So I thought, Okay, I've

738
00:34:47,641 --> 00:34:50,321
Speaker 1: done enough for this. I need to become a detective.

739
00:34:50,441 --> 00:34:52,881
Speaker 1: Go down that path, do all that shit. Do you

740
00:34:52,921 --> 00:34:54,481
Speaker 1: think you're doing that kind of job? If you had

741
00:34:54,521 --> 00:34:57,281
Speaker 1: done it longer, would have been a liability to you. Yeah, yeah,

742
00:34:57,361 --> 00:34:59,521
Speaker 1: for sure. So my friend Larry would do it for

743
00:34:59,561 --> 00:35:02,241
Speaker 1: five years and he was just stuffed at the end

744
00:35:02,281 --> 00:35:04,001
Speaker 1: of it. He couldn't go back. He went back to

745
00:35:04,121 --> 00:35:07,561
Speaker 1: uniform for a little while. Just couldn't been left, you know. So,

746
00:35:07,881 --> 00:35:09,921
Speaker 1: and I saw on the other undercovers one of my

747
00:35:09,961 --> 00:35:11,641
Speaker 1: friends went to jail for a couple of years for

748
00:35:11,721 --> 00:35:14,481
Speaker 1: taking a bribe because he needed money to buy weed.

749
00:35:15,201 --> 00:35:18,761
Speaker 1: Harry developed a habit, became an armed robber. Another guy

750
00:35:18,881 --> 00:35:22,401
Speaker 1: scarfed with ten thousand dollars worth of buyer money. So

751
00:35:22,441 --> 00:35:25,321
Speaker 1: this is things you don't hear of, Like, no, the

752
00:35:25,361 --> 00:35:28,001
Speaker 1: force keeps it are all quiet? Yeah, yeah, for sure,

753
00:35:28,801 --> 00:35:31,721
Speaker 1: particularly in those days, is so much extent I didn't

754
00:35:31,721 --> 00:35:34,721
Speaker 1: want it wouldn't be to that extent. Now they're with it. No, no, God, no,

755
00:35:34,761 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: it's it's it's completely different now and I can't talk

756
00:35:37,481 --> 00:35:41,121
Speaker 1: about it. Yeah, obviously, but the whole approach is completely different,

757
00:35:41,201 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 1: a lot more welfare, lot more support. But we were

758
00:35:44,041 --> 00:35:47,201
Speaker 1: just kids thrown into the deep end. The deep end. Yeah,

759
00:35:47,241 --> 00:35:51,841
Speaker 1: and if you think about it, no rules, heaps of cash, whatever, guns,

760
00:35:51,881 --> 00:35:55,681
Speaker 1: we wanted, no supervision. Fuck what can go wrong? Wow?

761
00:35:56,721 --> 00:35:57,881
Speaker 1: And it often did, but.

762
00:35:58,041 --> 00:36:00,481
Speaker 2: Was never any backup. Shit that hit the fan, then

763
00:36:00,561 --> 00:36:01,561
Speaker 2: you just got to deal with it.

764
00:36:01,721 --> 00:36:04,721
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, in those days, no mobile phones, so you know,

765
00:36:04,881 --> 00:36:07,001
Speaker 1: I remember being and there's no one sitting off outside

766
00:36:07,041 --> 00:36:09,481
Speaker 1: to make sure that you're very raally if there was

767
00:36:09,521 --> 00:36:12,561
Speaker 1: a meat that you thought might be a bit suspicious.

768
00:36:12,921 --> 00:36:16,001
Speaker 1: You'd have to apply for surveillance. A surveillance team might

769
00:36:16,041 --> 00:36:18,481
Speaker 1: be busy on something else. If they were available, they

770
00:36:18,561 --> 00:36:21,521
Speaker 1: might do it. Or we actually backed each other up

771
00:36:21,641 --> 00:36:24,041
Speaker 1: so that you sees we'd back each other up unofficially,

772
00:36:24,561 --> 00:36:26,441
Speaker 1: you know. I'd often sit in the car outside of

773
00:36:26,441 --> 00:36:28,281
Speaker 1: a house when one of my mates was in doing

774
00:36:28,281 --> 00:36:30,601
Speaker 1: a buy, just to make sure he got out. Okay,

775
00:36:30,921 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: but that was all off the books. Yeah, you're pretty

776
00:36:33,041 --> 00:36:35,761
Speaker 1: rough and ready. You basically decided to get out on

777
00:36:35,801 --> 00:36:38,681
Speaker 1: the cover because of your mental health and career. Yeah,

778
00:36:38,721 --> 00:36:41,721
Speaker 1: and career, and that's before we understood what mental health was. Yeah,

779
00:36:41,841 --> 00:36:44,201
Speaker 1: I just knew that I was probably going down to

780
00:36:44,201 --> 00:36:46,641
Speaker 1: a dark down a path that I may not come

781
00:36:46,681 --> 00:36:49,121
Speaker 1: back from. It's more lifestyle smoking.

782
00:36:49,241 --> 00:36:51,681
Speaker 2: So so that goes back to so where you thinking

783
00:36:51,681 --> 00:36:53,841
Speaker 2: when you're going down this, if you don't get ours,

784
00:36:53,961 --> 00:36:56,161
Speaker 2: you could have a flip and go to the other

785
00:36:56,201 --> 00:36:56,481
Speaker 2: side of.

786
00:36:56,441 --> 00:37:01,201
Speaker 1: The fence potentially potentially. Yeah, Yeah, I was smoking a

787
00:37:01,201 --> 00:37:03,321
Speaker 1: lot of weed, drinking a lot.

788
00:37:03,481 --> 00:37:06,001
Speaker 2: And you were actually doing their lifestyle. So you're on

789
00:37:06,041 --> 00:37:08,121
Speaker 2: the cover, but you're actually doing their lifestyle.

790
00:37:08,281 --> 00:37:10,001
Speaker 1: So that was the thing and I think, in hindsight

791
00:37:10,041 --> 00:37:12,161
Speaker 1: made I looked at that ino, Oh there's a line

792
00:37:12,201 --> 00:37:14,961
Speaker 1: there that's becoming a little bit more blurred. So it's

793
00:37:14,961 --> 00:37:16,561
Speaker 1: probably time I came back on the other side of

794
00:37:16,601 --> 00:37:20,001
Speaker 1: the light, and I'd had enough of that fun. I

795
00:37:20,041 --> 00:37:22,761
Speaker 1: suppose I just thought, yeah, it's time I went back,

796
00:37:22,801 --> 00:37:26,081
Speaker 1: and I wanted to reclaim my identity as well. So

797
00:37:26,201 --> 00:37:28,761
Speaker 1: for the first six months we all had to go

798
00:37:28,801 --> 00:37:31,081
Speaker 1: back to uniform. So I was back in uniform patrol.

799
00:37:31,121 --> 00:37:35,521
Speaker 1: I wouldn't been bored. I remember, I had to ask.

800
00:37:35,641 --> 00:37:37,641
Speaker 1: I had to ask. This guy was rostered with, how

801
00:37:37,641 --> 00:37:40,161
Speaker 1: the fuck do I get the microphone and sign on?

802
00:37:40,321 --> 00:37:42,001
Speaker 1: What call sign do we use? How do I do that?

803
00:37:42,961 --> 00:37:44,601
Speaker 1: You know? Wow? Because there was no there was no

804
00:37:44,681 --> 00:37:48,961
Speaker 1: resurfacing procedure. You just literally one day undercover, next day

805
00:37:48,961 --> 00:37:51,001
Speaker 1: in uniform, sitting in a mark car with a gun

806
00:37:51,001 --> 00:37:52,041
Speaker 1: belt on, going right.

807
00:37:52,561 --> 00:37:54,881
Speaker 2: Wow, this is were you ever spotted when you went

808
00:37:54,921 --> 00:37:57,081
Speaker 2: back to uniform by anyone that you were on the

809
00:37:57,081 --> 00:37:57,441
Speaker 2: cover for?

810
00:37:58,681 --> 00:38:01,081
Speaker 1: No, Because I got on my hair cut off shave

811
00:38:01,161 --> 00:38:04,641
Speaker 1: of beard. Ah, maybe a couple of guys in Brisbane

812
00:38:04,641 --> 00:38:09,641
Speaker 1: that i'd that I bought from, Maybe nothing sufficiently that

813
00:38:09,641 --> 00:38:12,721
Speaker 1: it rings a booth, you know, because Brisbane is still

814
00:38:12,761 --> 00:38:15,761
Speaker 1: a pretty small city in those days. But there was

815
00:38:15,801 --> 00:38:20,761
Speaker 1: never again revenge, never worried of revenge from those guys

816
00:38:20,881 --> 00:38:23,401
Speaker 1: against me. Never concerned me because it's a pretty big

817
00:38:23,401 --> 00:38:25,641
Speaker 1: move to kill a cop. Wow, beat the shit out

818
00:38:25,641 --> 00:38:28,401
Speaker 1: of one. But then in those days, again there'd be

819
00:38:28,401 --> 00:38:32,481
Speaker 1: some consequence of that, but a summary jurisdiction on the street.

820
00:38:32,521 --> 00:38:35,561
Speaker 1: Then you'd be arrested and go to jail. So I

821
00:38:35,561 --> 00:38:39,081
Speaker 1: was never really concerned about it. Maybe in hindsight, I

822
00:38:39,081 --> 00:38:41,561
Speaker 1: should have been. You know. The guy that worried me

823
00:38:41,601 --> 00:38:44,481
Speaker 1: for a long time was the guy that was the escape,

824
00:38:44,481 --> 00:38:49,281
Speaker 1: the double murderer, because he took it quiet personally. So

825
00:38:49,841 --> 00:38:52,361
Speaker 1: he went back to Yap the prison and I don't

826
00:38:52,401 --> 00:38:54,881
Speaker 1: know whether he's That was a long time ago. I

827
00:38:54,961 --> 00:38:57,881
Speaker 1: kept tabs on him for the next ten or fifteen years.

828
00:38:57,921 --> 00:39:00,481
Speaker 1: Oh you did, yeah, yeah, just in case. I had

829
00:39:00,521 --> 00:39:03,721
Speaker 1: a friend in South Australia and the cops just let

830
00:39:03,761 --> 00:39:06,401
Speaker 1: me know if every's released or gets out again. He's

831
00:39:06,441 --> 00:39:09,121
Speaker 1: the only one that concerned me. But the rest of it, now,

832
00:39:09,921 --> 00:39:12,441
Speaker 1: you know, I used to go when I finished undercover.

833
00:39:12,841 --> 00:39:16,281
Speaker 1: A few years later, I was working on so I

834
00:39:16,401 --> 00:39:20,201
Speaker 1: gone to detectives and then tactical. So I was a

835
00:39:20,281 --> 00:39:23,761
Speaker 1: tactical a time. Couple of gunfights and that was starting

836
00:39:23,801 --> 00:39:28,201
Speaker 1: to become challenging as well as in mentally. I'd been

837
00:39:28,201 --> 00:39:30,321
Speaker 1: in a gunfight a friend of mine was killed, two

838
00:39:30,361 --> 00:39:32,361
Speaker 1: of us who killed the bad guy. I was in

839
00:39:32,401 --> 00:39:34,521
Speaker 1: some more shootings after that, and then I realized that

840
00:39:34,641 --> 00:39:37,201
Speaker 1: was starting to take me over as well. So I

841
00:39:37,241 --> 00:39:41,361
Speaker 1: went back into the COVID world in criminal intelligence and surveillance,

842
00:39:41,721 --> 00:39:44,241
Speaker 1: and I worked on out of the motorcycle gang untel for

843
00:39:44,281 --> 00:39:48,041
Speaker 1: about three years. But I also had my Harley service

844
00:39:48,121 --> 00:39:52,761
Speaker 1: by a former president of the rebels, So we all

845
00:39:52,801 --> 00:39:55,561
Speaker 1: sort of had this understanding, and I look, I was

846
00:39:55,601 --> 00:39:58,521
Speaker 1: probably a bit different made. I probably had the blurred

847
00:39:58,521 --> 00:40:01,601
Speaker 1: lines as well, not from wanting to be part of

848
00:40:01,601 --> 00:40:05,961
Speaker 1: a club, but certainly understanding them. Referred to treat people

849
00:40:05,961 --> 00:40:08,681
Speaker 1: as human beings, you know, whilst there were gods. You

850
00:40:08,681 --> 00:40:11,361
Speaker 1: had a lot of informants from from the knowing all

851
00:40:11,361 --> 00:40:14,721
Speaker 1: these people. Yeah, yeah, I can't say too much about that.

852
00:40:14,841 --> 00:40:16,841
Speaker 1: People found it easy to talk to me and Tommy

853
00:40:17,041 --> 00:40:19,841
Speaker 1: a few things, yeah for sure, But I get there.

854
00:40:20,161 --> 00:40:22,201
Speaker 2: They would talk to you because they would want someone

855
00:40:22,241 --> 00:40:23,881
Speaker 2: out the way to benefit them.

856
00:40:23,961 --> 00:40:27,121
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, people informed the police for a variety of reasons.

857
00:40:27,161 --> 00:40:29,801
Speaker 1: For sure. Yeah, it's either knocking out the opposition or

858
00:40:30,601 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 1: or sometimes they just quite like you, so I look

859
00:40:33,481 --> 00:40:35,121
Speaker 1: metal to help your career. How about you go and

860
00:40:35,161 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: see this guy Neil, and he might have this and that. Yeah,

861
00:40:37,441 --> 00:40:41,161
Speaker 1: blah blah blah, and the other reasons were Giles sentence

862
00:40:41,201 --> 00:40:43,881
Speaker 1: coming up. So if they cooperated with the police, they'd

863
00:40:43,921 --> 00:40:46,241
Speaker 1: have what's called a letter of comfort that would go

864
00:40:46,281 --> 00:40:48,601
Speaker 1: to their barrister. It would be past to the judge

865
00:40:48,761 --> 00:40:50,761
Speaker 1: to give them a reduced sentence because they've cooperated with

866
00:40:50,801 --> 00:40:54,721
Speaker 1: the police all confidentially. It's just a different world. And

867
00:40:54,761 --> 00:40:57,521
Speaker 1: there were their informants that I wouldn't trust with my

868
00:40:57,561 --> 00:41:00,481
Speaker 1: shopping list, But there were certainly also informants that I

869
00:41:00,801 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: was pretty comfortable talking to because one in particular hated

870
00:41:05,121 --> 00:41:08,161
Speaker 1: drug dealers and he looked like he looked like he'd

871
00:41:08,201 --> 00:41:10,041
Speaker 1: been in a club. They had that same look, and

872
00:41:10,161 --> 00:41:12,681
Speaker 1: I don't think he ever was, but you know, could

873
00:41:12,761 --> 00:41:16,161
Speaker 1: infiltrate that world pretty effectively and just hated drug dealers.

874
00:41:16,721 --> 00:41:20,481
Speaker 1: So he worked with us. He was paid, you know,

875
00:41:20,761 --> 00:41:22,681
Speaker 1: they had a reward system. So at the end of

876
00:41:22,721 --> 00:41:26,481
Speaker 1: an operation, depending on the quantity of drugs sees, the

877
00:41:26,481 --> 00:41:29,681
Speaker 1: amount of people pinched, there'd be a payment that would

878
00:41:29,681 --> 00:41:31,601
Speaker 1: go to him. And I think even in those days

879
00:41:31,601 --> 00:41:35,081
Speaker 1: it might have been cash, all legitimate, but yeah, so

880
00:41:35,161 --> 00:41:37,721
Speaker 1: he made a fairly tidy living it. What was the

881
00:41:37,721 --> 00:41:40,521
Speaker 1: biggest hole that you got from being on the cover? Oh,

882
00:41:40,801 --> 00:41:43,321
Speaker 1: it was more quality. I was on an operation on

883
00:41:43,321 --> 00:41:45,441
Speaker 1: the Gold Coast and I got to eighty two percent

884
00:41:45,481 --> 00:41:48,121
Speaker 1: purity with heroin, which is very close to the importer.

885
00:41:49,441 --> 00:41:53,801
Speaker 1: Everyone got excited and cynically. It was all about newspaper

886
00:41:53,841 --> 00:41:55,721
Speaker 1: coverage in those days. It was all about making the

887
00:41:55,761 --> 00:41:59,561
Speaker 1: drugs would look good, police commissioner looking good, blah blah blah.

888
00:41:59,601 --> 00:42:02,081
Speaker 1: So they decided to shut the operation down because it

889
00:42:02,121 --> 00:42:04,801
Speaker 1: was eighty two percent purity, which was disappointing. That's probably

890
00:42:04,841 --> 00:42:06,841
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I left. Actually, I thought, now this.

891
00:42:06,841 --> 00:42:10,361
Speaker 2: Is just about so it's funny what you just said then,

892
00:42:10,601 --> 00:42:12,001
Speaker 2: as well as the commission of getting a pat on

893
00:42:12,041 --> 00:42:14,521
Speaker 2: the back, and you know, over people get but you'll

894
00:42:14,561 --> 00:42:15,841
Speaker 2: never getting a part in the back because no one

895
00:42:15,881 --> 00:42:16,681
Speaker 2: knows you.

896
00:42:16,681 --> 00:42:19,361
Speaker 1: You're invisible. Well, and even worse than that, mate, you know,

897
00:42:19,401 --> 00:42:21,681
Speaker 1: it was some there was a bit of a prevailing

898
00:42:21,681 --> 00:42:24,881
Speaker 1: attitude that undercovers were like cannon fonder. You know, we

899
00:42:24,881 --> 00:42:27,281
Speaker 1: weren't really valued, even though we were the ones out

900
00:42:27,281 --> 00:42:30,561
Speaker 1: there doing the work. We weren't really valued by everybody.

901
00:42:31,321 --> 00:42:34,041
Speaker 1: Some detectives were good, they got it. They looked after

902
00:42:34,121 --> 00:42:36,441
Speaker 1: us as best they could. But others just treated you

903
00:42:36,481 --> 00:42:38,961
Speaker 1: a bit, just play you around. There be another one

904
00:42:39,001 --> 00:42:42,961
Speaker 1: here next week. Wow. Although when I was just leaving

905
00:42:42,961 --> 00:42:45,401
Speaker 1: to go back to uniform, we had a different detective

906
00:42:45,401 --> 00:42:47,201
Speaker 1: inspector who was put in charge of the drug squad,

907
00:42:47,321 --> 00:42:51,641
Speaker 1: brilliant man, incorruptible, straight as you know, really was concerned

908
00:42:51,641 --> 00:42:54,601
Speaker 1: about our wealthy and he I don't know. I was

909
00:42:54,601 --> 00:42:56,361
Speaker 1: back in uniform for three months or something, and I

910
00:42:56,401 --> 00:42:59,321
Speaker 1: got called to the Commissioner's office for a secret meeting

911
00:42:59,841 --> 00:43:03,601
Speaker 1: and presented with an accommodation for the conduct, for brave

912
00:43:03,641 --> 00:43:07,641
Speaker 1: conduct or good conduct or something for working undercover. And

913
00:43:07,681 --> 00:43:09,841
Speaker 1: that was all down to him. So he saw the

914
00:43:09,921 --> 00:43:11,881
Speaker 1: value of here's a bit of pad on the back.

915
00:43:11,881 --> 00:43:14,881
Speaker 1: He's a bit of positive affirmation. And I felt like

916
00:43:14,961 --> 00:43:17,321
Speaker 1: king of the world, even it was behind closed doors

917
00:43:17,361 --> 00:43:19,841
Speaker 1: because it was covert. But that was such a cool

918
00:43:19,881 --> 00:43:23,841
Speaker 1: thing to do. Before that, nah, just a different world.

919
00:43:24,001 --> 00:43:27,721
Speaker 1: And a lot of it was just attitudes of particular

920
00:43:27,841 --> 00:43:31,041
Speaker 1: police I think, not all of them. You know a

921
00:43:31,041 --> 00:43:32,921
Speaker 1: lot of people I worked with a good straight on us.

922
00:43:33,361 --> 00:43:34,681
Speaker 1: Did you see a lot of corrupt and the police

923
00:43:34,721 --> 00:43:38,241
Speaker 1: force while we were there? I saw enough? Yeah. Yeah,

924
00:43:38,521 --> 00:43:40,801
Speaker 1: you know. My mate Larry and I walked and got

925
00:43:40,801 --> 00:43:42,561
Speaker 1: into the drug squad one night because we had to

926
00:43:42,601 --> 00:43:45,521
Speaker 1: drop paperwork off or pick something up or stuck our

927
00:43:45,561 --> 00:43:47,681
Speaker 1: way in. And as we walked past, and I can

928
00:43:47,721 --> 00:43:49,481
Speaker 1: still see it in my mind's eye, walked past an

929
00:43:49,481 --> 00:43:55,281
Speaker 1: office there were three detectives bagging up probably two pounds

930
00:43:55,281 --> 00:43:58,641
Speaker 1: a week into deal bags, and I remember looking and

931
00:43:58,681 --> 00:44:02,321
Speaker 1: thinking fuck, And they looked at us, and we looked

932
00:44:02,321 --> 00:44:04,281
Speaker 1: at them, and we just went we might just leave

933
00:44:05,241 --> 00:44:08,561
Speaker 1: around and walked out, because in those bad old days,

934
00:44:08,601 --> 00:44:11,321
Speaker 1: if you'd gone to internal affairs and made a report,

935
00:44:11,921 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: you couldn't be sure who you were talking to, where

936
00:44:14,521 --> 00:44:17,601
Speaker 1: their alliances were, and you might well come home and

937
00:44:17,641 --> 00:44:20,001
Speaker 1: find stolen property in your house with someone waiting for

938
00:44:20,041 --> 00:44:23,641
Speaker 1: it with a search warrant. So that was, yeah, that

939
00:44:23,801 --> 00:44:27,161
Speaker 1: was a bit of an eye opener. And then after

940
00:44:27,201 --> 00:44:29,601
Speaker 1: we'd finished this job in Cans where you know, the

941
00:44:29,681 --> 00:44:31,961
Speaker 1: guy was going to kill me. We're in the police club,

942
00:44:32,041 --> 00:44:34,481
Speaker 1: and the police club's a licensed bar. In those days,

943
00:44:34,481 --> 00:44:35,921
Speaker 1: you know, you could only get in if you're a

944
00:44:35,921 --> 00:44:39,161
Speaker 1: cop or you're axist. So Larry and I, they're having

945
00:44:39,161 --> 00:44:41,241
Speaker 1: a few beers just to wind down up this operation,

946
00:44:41,401 --> 00:44:42,961
Speaker 1: is laughing about the fact that, well, he's going to

947
00:44:43,041 --> 00:44:45,841
Speaker 1: knock us for this half and we were surrounded by

948
00:44:46,841 --> 00:44:49,841
Speaker 1: four or five detectives and they just started having a

949
00:44:49,921 --> 00:44:52,721
Speaker 1: chat to us. And I can't remember how the conversation started,

950
00:44:52,721 --> 00:44:54,921
Speaker 1: but it was something like, listen to you guys. You

951
00:44:54,961 --> 00:44:57,361
Speaker 1: know what you're doing here. We do. We've got a

952
00:44:57,361 --> 00:45:00,641
Speaker 1: fever to smack, to move. So here's the deal. We'll

953
00:45:00,681 --> 00:45:03,721
Speaker 1: give you the gear. Next time you're out doing your work,

954
00:45:04,001 --> 00:45:07,721
Speaker 1: you sell it, we'll split the profits quickly. Frity, I

955
00:45:07,761 --> 00:45:11,321
Speaker 1: don't remember thinking, first of all, you fuckers, why the

956
00:45:11,401 --> 00:45:13,041
Speaker 1: fuck do you think I want to do that ship?

957
00:45:13,761 --> 00:45:16,601
Speaker 1: And secondly, you've got the balls to do it in

958
00:45:16,641 --> 00:45:19,841
Speaker 1: a police club, to try and set two blokes up

959
00:45:19,881 --> 00:45:23,121
Speaker 1: to sell smack as cops, you know. So we just

960
00:45:23,401 --> 00:45:25,881
Speaker 1: we just declined. And when I went it's too risky, man,

961
00:45:25,881 --> 00:45:29,001
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna do that. Shit, because you had to

962
00:45:29,001 --> 00:45:31,081
Speaker 1: walk a fine line to go. If I'm going to

963
00:45:31,121 --> 00:45:34,161
Speaker 1: be a threat to these guys, I could be transferred

964
00:45:34,161 --> 00:45:36,721
Speaker 1: overnight to the country, which used to happen, so you

965
00:45:36,801 --> 00:45:40,161
Speaker 1: go from Brisbane and Mount iSER over night, or you

966
00:45:40,161 --> 00:45:42,041
Speaker 1: could be set up in some other way. So you

967
00:45:42,161 --> 00:45:44,921
Speaker 1: just had to have this bloody walk a fine line

968
00:45:44,961 --> 00:45:47,001
Speaker 1: to go. I'm going to say no, but I'm going

969
00:45:47,041 --> 00:45:48,401
Speaker 1: to say no in a way that you don't think

970
00:45:48,401 --> 00:45:49,161
Speaker 1: I'm a threat to you.

971
00:45:50,241 --> 00:45:52,241
Speaker 2: Because my question then to you, like I was going

972
00:45:52,321 --> 00:45:54,321
Speaker 2: to ask before you said that, was if you get

973
00:45:54,361 --> 00:45:57,121
Speaker 2: to be hauling and you arrest someone and a lot

974
00:45:57,121 --> 00:45:59,321
Speaker 2: of shit there, where's that shit?

975
00:45:59,401 --> 00:45:59,961
Speaker 1: Go? Ah?

976
00:46:00,081 --> 00:46:03,361
Speaker 2: Yeah, surely doesn't just stay as safe, it doesn't just

977
00:46:03,401 --> 00:46:03,801
Speaker 2: sit down.

978
00:46:03,961 --> 00:46:06,521
Speaker 1: No, Well, it gets it gets way, it gets vouchered,

979
00:46:06,641 --> 00:46:10,161
Speaker 1: it gets signed for, and then it's photographed and then

980
00:46:10,201 --> 00:46:12,201
Speaker 1: take it was to those days, so it happens now,

981
00:46:12,801 --> 00:46:17,801
Speaker 1: but it was taken to the government chemist. Government destroyed

982
00:46:18,041 --> 00:46:21,481
Speaker 1: a government chemist. Yeah yeah, it's destroyed civili yep. So

983
00:46:21,521 --> 00:46:24,801
Speaker 1: it's destroyed witnessed by the government chemist who wasn't associated

984
00:46:24,841 --> 00:46:28,281
Speaker 1: with the police departments. So there was that. Having said that,

985
00:46:29,161 --> 00:46:32,481
Speaker 1: you and I both know as opportunities to knock she

986
00:46:32,761 --> 00:46:35,041
Speaker 1: off all the time, and it certainly was in the eighties,

987
00:46:35,761 --> 00:46:37,401
Speaker 1: was in the tactical world. We did a raid on

988
00:46:37,801 --> 00:46:41,681
Speaker 1: a mafia run crop in Charleval, massive crop and we

989
00:46:42,281 --> 00:46:46,841
Speaker 1: went in with nine squadron on Iroquois helicopters at fucking dawn.

990
00:46:46,881 --> 00:46:50,361
Speaker 1: It was awesome, straight out of Apocalypse now. So five

991
00:46:50,401 --> 00:46:53,641
Speaker 1: iraqis tuitioninal Kelly Copter's big raid armed ray where they're

992
00:46:53,641 --> 00:46:55,801
Speaker 1: in our black gear and blah blah blah. Arrest the guys.

993
00:46:56,321 --> 00:46:58,961
Speaker 1: And there were two mafia principles who turned up the

994
00:46:59,081 --> 00:47:02,041
Speaker 1: night before. Bad luck for them. So we got them

995
00:47:02,041 --> 00:47:04,281
Speaker 1: all arrested and we're just you know, air force involved,

996
00:47:04,281 --> 00:47:07,241
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. And the drug squoid came in in

997
00:47:07,281 --> 00:47:10,481
Speaker 1: a convoy of four wheel drives and they're tearing all

998
00:47:10,481 --> 00:47:14,281
Speaker 1: these plants. And I remember looking at one guy who

999
00:47:14,401 --> 00:47:17,281
Speaker 1: had god, he would have had a garbage bag with

1000
00:47:17,281 --> 00:47:21,041
Speaker 1: probably ten pounds in it, thinking you're a pretty cavalier

1001
00:47:21,081 --> 00:47:22,801
Speaker 1: about the way you're dealing with this shit, and he

1002
00:47:22,921 --> 00:47:25,161
Speaker 1: had this thing and he just wrapped like, got the

1003
00:47:25,161 --> 00:47:27,721
Speaker 1: big green garbage bag, got another big beat and garbage

1004
00:47:27,721 --> 00:47:29,681
Speaker 1: bag through him in he's foil driving and fucked off,

1005
00:47:29,961 --> 00:47:33,241
Speaker 1: And I thought, I don't see too many photographs being table.

1006
00:47:35,001 --> 00:47:39,521
Speaker 1: But then again, and that this is before our coruption inquiry. Go, yeah,

1007
00:47:39,561 --> 00:47:42,081
Speaker 1: I just mind my own business. They can sort that

1008
00:47:42,121 --> 00:47:44,521
Speaker 1: shit out. You know. I do my job. I do

1009
00:47:44,561 --> 00:47:46,641
Speaker 1: it while I do it honestly. And that's the line

1010
00:47:46,681 --> 00:47:49,681
Speaker 1: again you had to walk. Things have changed now, for sure.

1011
00:47:50,241 --> 00:47:53,081
Speaker 1: I didn't thank God, even after our corruption inquiry, for

1012
00:47:53,121 --> 00:47:56,081
Speaker 1: all its faults and the way it did screw things

1013
00:47:56,161 --> 00:47:59,481
Speaker 1: up for a while, it actually forced a lot more

1014
00:47:59,481 --> 00:48:02,801
Speaker 1: integrity into policing than I was used to. But again,

1015
00:48:03,521 --> 00:48:07,761
Speaker 1: not everybody I wor with his corrupt. The majority were

1016
00:48:07,801 --> 00:48:11,721
Speaker 1: good people, but there was enough corruption and it was

1017
00:48:11,801 --> 00:48:16,241
Speaker 1: controlled from very senior levels to know that things just yeah,

1018
00:48:16,281 --> 00:48:18,201
Speaker 1: I'll stay right away from them. You know.

1019
00:48:19,241 --> 00:48:22,641
Speaker 2: Now you've worked on Okay, you've on both sides. See

1020
00:48:22,641 --> 00:48:24,161
Speaker 2: how I can get a good answer from this one.

1021
00:48:24,521 --> 00:48:28,721
Speaker 2: Which side would you say was the most exciting side

1022
00:48:28,721 --> 00:48:29,201
Speaker 2: to work for?

1023
00:48:30,881 --> 00:48:34,480
Speaker 1: You mean, cops versus bad guys? Yeah, you've done it both.

1024
00:48:35,761 --> 00:48:39,201
Speaker 1: I've got it. Okay, I have to say this. When

1025
00:48:39,241 --> 00:48:41,480
Speaker 1: I was under which want you enjoy the most being

1026
00:48:41,481 --> 00:48:44,081
Speaker 1: in the world? Yeah? Being undercover being in the world

1027
00:48:44,281 --> 00:48:47,921
Speaker 1: dealing with people, for sure. Having said that, the tactical world,

1028
00:48:48,241 --> 00:48:51,601
Speaker 1: being an operator counter terrorism, I did an essays course

1029
00:48:51,721 --> 00:48:54,121
Speaker 1: or course with the essays all of that. Loved that

1030
00:48:54,281 --> 00:48:56,681
Speaker 1: to death because that was a completely different world. That

1031
00:48:56,721 --> 00:49:03,561
Speaker 1: was professional teamwork, you know, special weapons training, breaching, clearing houses,

1032
00:49:03,601 --> 00:49:06,961
Speaker 1: dealing with shit, dealing with pretty violently. I loved all that.

1033
00:49:07,761 --> 00:49:10,321
Speaker 1: But in the undercover world, there were some dealers I

1034
00:49:10,401 --> 00:49:12,761
Speaker 1: met whose company I much preferred to that a cops.

1035
00:49:13,721 --> 00:49:16,241
Speaker 1: You know, I established relationships and there were some pretty

1036
00:49:16,281 --> 00:49:18,321
Speaker 1: there were some people I really didn't mind hanging out with.

1037
00:49:18,401 --> 00:49:19,961
Speaker 2: Did you get really close that close to where you

1038
00:49:20,241 --> 00:49:22,521
Speaker 2: actually sometimes forgot that you're under coven that you have

1039
00:49:22,641 --> 00:49:23,921
Speaker 2: to like you a mates.

1040
00:49:24,081 --> 00:49:27,961
Speaker 1: You never forget your undercover okay, but certainly, yeah, you

1041
00:49:28,041 --> 00:49:29,441
Speaker 1: got too close to some of the guys I got

1042
00:49:29,481 --> 00:49:31,961
Speaker 1: too close with. There was one one guy in particular,

1043
00:49:32,161 --> 00:49:33,761
Speaker 1: on that job on the Gold Coast where I was

1044
00:49:33,801 --> 00:49:36,361
Speaker 1: buying all that heroin, but he was you know, he

1045
00:49:36,401 --> 00:49:37,881
Speaker 1: was there and here, and I got on really well.

1046
00:49:37,921 --> 00:49:40,001
Speaker 1: And as an undercover, you've got to pretend to like

1047
00:49:40,081 --> 00:49:43,201
Speaker 1: people that can mess with your psyche as well. You know,

1048
00:49:43,241 --> 00:49:46,401
Speaker 1: you're going to betray everybody you meet. Pretty much. This

1049
00:49:46,481 --> 00:49:49,761
Speaker 1: guy was part of the circle. He wasn't selling smack,

1050
00:49:49,841 --> 00:49:53,201
Speaker 1: but he was selling some good quality weed, and weed

1051
00:49:53,281 --> 00:49:55,201
Speaker 1: was against the word, and it was you know, there

1052
00:49:55,201 --> 00:49:57,801
Speaker 1: was a focus on cannabis in those days. And again,

1053
00:49:57,841 --> 00:50:00,561
Speaker 1: as I said before, I'm an advocate drug reform, but

1054
00:50:00,681 --> 00:50:03,401
Speaker 1: in those days was your job. So he kept saying

1055
00:50:03,401 --> 00:50:06,641
Speaker 1: to me, hey, mate, now remember there was no recording

1056
00:50:06,681 --> 00:50:10,001
Speaker 1: of any of this. Thankfully, Look I've got this gear.

1057
00:50:10,001 --> 00:50:11,681
Speaker 1: I've got this gear, and I got no, no, no, na,

1058
00:50:11,761 --> 00:50:13,241
Speaker 1: no no. He said, Look, I know you're in the game.

1059
00:50:13,281 --> 00:50:15,161
Speaker 1: I know you're buying a lot of heroin from such

1060
00:50:15,201 --> 00:50:17,601
Speaker 1: and such. That's okay, I don't judge for that. But

1061
00:50:17,681 --> 00:50:21,001
Speaker 1: this ship is from thailed, this quality gear, this cannabis

1062
00:50:21,041 --> 00:50:23,641
Speaker 1: is weed, this mull is really and you make a

1063
00:50:23,641 --> 00:50:26,001
Speaker 1: lot of money with it. And I kept saying no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

1064
00:50:26,081 --> 00:50:28,401
Speaker 1: it's all good things anyway, because I liked him, and

1065
00:50:28,441 --> 00:50:29,961
Speaker 1: I liked him so much that I knew if I

1066
00:50:30,041 --> 00:50:32,801
Speaker 1: scored from him, he'd have to get arrested. So for

1067
00:50:32,841 --> 00:50:35,801
Speaker 1: three or four months I kept saying no, until one

1068
00:50:35,881 --> 00:50:37,601
Speaker 1: day he came to my flat. I was in and

1069
00:50:37,641 --> 00:50:40,001
Speaker 1: he said, listen, man, I got a deal for He

1070
00:50:40,081 --> 00:50:43,481
Speaker 1: literally said two graffita refuse and I went, okay, what

1071
00:50:43,681 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: and pulled this big bag out and he had something

1072
00:50:46,041 --> 00:50:49,440
Speaker 1: like four hundred Thai buddhisticks. And for all the old

1073
00:50:49,481 --> 00:50:52,921
Speaker 1: listeners out there, Thai Buddhistics, it was this compressed head

1074
00:50:53,081 --> 00:50:56,241
Speaker 1: that was wrapped around like a skewer and tied with

1075
00:50:56,361 --> 00:51:00,481
Speaker 1: black cotton and it was prime weed. It was fucking

1076
00:51:00,681 --> 00:51:03,721
Speaker 1: prime weed. And I'd been enough of a connos served

1077
00:51:03,801 --> 00:51:05,401
Speaker 1: by then because I was doing a bit of fuel

1078
00:51:05,481 --> 00:51:08,601
Speaker 1: sampling to know this is good gear. And there were

1079
00:51:08,641 --> 00:51:10,961
Speaker 1: like four hundred sticks of it or something, and I thought,

1080
00:51:11,001 --> 00:51:14,361
Speaker 1: oh man, I can't say no to this. So I went, yeah, sure,

1081
00:51:14,721 --> 00:51:18,401
Speaker 1: got the cash, made the deal, everyone got arrested, and

1082
00:51:18,481 --> 00:51:20,561
Speaker 1: at the end of it, you know, the detective said,

1083
00:51:20,601 --> 00:51:24,641
Speaker 1: you've sold all these gear to an undercover agent? What gear?

1084
00:51:24,721 --> 00:51:29,041
Speaker 1: Four hundred sticks? He went, oh, man, And they said,

1085
00:51:29,081 --> 00:51:30,721
Speaker 1: do you want to have an official They called it

1086
00:51:30,761 --> 00:51:32,801
Speaker 1: a confrontation? Do you want to have an official confrontation

1087
00:51:32,841 --> 00:51:34,921
Speaker 1: with the undercover And he said no, so actually, can

1088
00:51:34,961 --> 00:51:37,241
Speaker 1: we just say unofficially? And they came out and said

1089
00:51:37,241 --> 00:51:38,961
Speaker 1: he just wanted to have an unofficial chat. Yeah, I

1090
00:51:38,961 --> 00:51:40,961
Speaker 1: get that. So I walked and he said, now I

1091
00:51:41,041 --> 00:51:44,681
Speaker 1: understand men. You tried thanks anyway, shook my hand, you know,

1092
00:51:44,961 --> 00:51:49,001
Speaker 1: and no hard feelings. And the detective said, what's he

1093
00:51:49,041 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 1: mean by that? So it doesn't matter, Matt go.

1094
00:51:54,201 --> 00:51:56,641
Speaker 2: And yeah, I really felt bad about that.

1095
00:51:56,761 --> 00:51:58,681
Speaker 1: But I was in the drug squad as a detective

1096
00:51:58,681 --> 00:52:01,241
Speaker 1: a couple of years later, finished undercovering that shit. And

1097
00:52:01,281 --> 00:52:03,601
Speaker 1: there was a message at the office one day such

1098
00:52:03,601 --> 00:52:05,961
Speaker 1: and such as Rung can you please call him back

1099
00:52:05,961 --> 00:52:07,641
Speaker 1: on this number? Because I knew he went to jail

1100
00:52:07,761 --> 00:52:10,081
Speaker 1: for a prison farm for like eighteen months. It's pretty

1101
00:52:10,081 --> 00:52:13,201
Speaker 1: harsh and anyway, ranging back, he said, hey, mate, I

1102
00:52:13,281 --> 00:52:15,721
Speaker 1: just wanted to catch up and have a beer. Very

1103
00:52:15,721 --> 00:52:17,961
Speaker 1: suspicious of everybody, I said, yeah, sure, we'll meet at

1104
00:52:18,081 --> 00:52:21,241
Speaker 1: a certain pub in CBD. In Brisbane. I went out

1105
00:52:21,281 --> 00:52:24,041
Speaker 1: to a couple of mates, a couple of coppers detectives

1106
00:52:24,081 --> 00:52:26,081
Speaker 1: and said, look, this guy wants to meet up. How

1107
00:52:26,081 --> 00:52:28,041
Speaker 1: about you go there ten minutes before me. Just back

1108
00:52:28,121 --> 00:52:29,641
Speaker 1: me up just in case it's all going to get battle.

1109
00:52:29,841 --> 00:52:33,721
Speaker 1: So rocked on down there and within I've got to

1110
00:52:33,761 --> 00:52:35,961
Speaker 1: say the first three or four minutes I excuse me.

1111
00:52:36,281 --> 00:52:38,121
Speaker 1: I walked over the boys and said, everything's cool. He

1112
00:52:38,201 --> 00:52:41,041
Speaker 1: just wants to say gooday, which is all exactly what

1113
00:52:41,081 --> 00:52:42,521
Speaker 1: he did. So we had a couple of beers. We

1114
00:52:42,601 --> 00:52:45,241
Speaker 1: laughed about it, you know, and separated ways.

1115
00:52:45,441 --> 00:52:48,361
Speaker 2: Wow, so what made you get up the force?

1116
00:52:48,441 --> 00:52:51,081
Speaker 1: Then after it was it just oh mate, that's another

1117
00:52:51,201 --> 00:52:54,321
Speaker 1: that's another podcast. Right there. I was in I was

1118
00:52:54,321 --> 00:52:58,201
Speaker 1: in that shooting. My mate got killed. I had massive,

1119
00:52:58,721 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 1: massive survivor guilt. I was in charge of the assault team,

1120
00:53:02,081 --> 00:53:04,561
Speaker 1: were highly trained. It's a whole long story.

1121
00:53:05,161 --> 00:53:08,881
Speaker 2: Maybe I need to get you a part two.

1122
00:53:11,321 --> 00:53:14,321
Speaker 1: It's all about postmat extreats and not understanding and it

1123
00:53:14,361 --> 00:53:17,361
Speaker 1: sent me down a whole pathway of fucking darkness and

1124
00:53:18,081 --> 00:53:22,041
Speaker 1: you know, just a horrible time for about thirty years.

1125
00:53:22,601 --> 00:53:26,721
Speaker 1: But in the job that was happening, I did something else.

1126
00:53:27,041 --> 00:53:28,801
Speaker 1: I walked into a siege where a guy had a

1127
00:53:28,841 --> 00:53:30,921
Speaker 1: box full of gelic Knight and a hand grenade and

1128
00:53:30,961 --> 00:53:32,361
Speaker 1: a rifle and sat there for an hour and a

1129
00:53:32,401 --> 00:53:35,921
Speaker 1: half and shouldn't have been there and resolved all of that.

1130
00:53:36,561 --> 00:53:38,721
Speaker 1: But then at the same time I had you know,

1131
00:53:38,761 --> 00:53:42,001
Speaker 1: I wasn't sleeping. I'd been married. I woke up one

1132
00:53:42,041 --> 00:53:45,000
Speaker 1: morning and left my wife forever remorseful about that because

1133
00:53:45,001 --> 00:53:48,081
Speaker 1: I just couldn't face life anymore, slept in my office

1134
00:53:48,081 --> 00:53:50,521
Speaker 1: for three days, that sort of shit, and so I'd

1135
00:53:50,561 --> 00:53:53,761
Speaker 1: become a cliche and drinking way too much, all of

1136
00:53:53,761 --> 00:53:56,441
Speaker 1: that and living for the job, and I just realized

1137
00:53:56,481 --> 00:54:00,641
Speaker 1: that I was just fucked. And at the same time,

1138
00:54:00,681 --> 00:54:04,041
Speaker 1: I was being approached from the corporate world with an

1139
00:54:04,041 --> 00:54:06,801
Speaker 1: offer of a corporate that was like twenty or thirty

1140
00:54:06,801 --> 00:54:10,441
Speaker 1: grand more a year more stable, had met someone else,

1141
00:54:10,641 --> 00:54:13,201
Speaker 1: you know, was wanting to settle down. So I just

1142
00:54:13,241 --> 00:54:17,201
Speaker 1: waited all up and went, yeah, I'll leave, and regretted

1143
00:54:17,241 --> 00:54:21,281
Speaker 1: it every day. Had there been more support and available,

1144
00:54:21,321 --> 00:54:23,441
Speaker 1: had there been like there is now, had there been

1145
00:54:23,481 --> 00:54:25,881
Speaker 1: an understanding of what I was going through was an

1146
00:54:25,881 --> 00:54:29,121
Speaker 1: injury to the brain, I probably would have been able

1147
00:54:29,121 --> 00:54:32,641
Speaker 1: to recover better. Having said that, I've built a career

1148
00:54:32,681 --> 00:54:34,361
Speaker 1: in the corporate world and when on and was fairly

1149
00:54:34,361 --> 00:54:36,881
Speaker 1: successful and very successful in that. But it was one

1150
00:54:36,921 --> 00:54:39,681
Speaker 1: of those little unresolved things you know, most days, Okay,

1151
00:54:39,761 --> 00:54:42,761
Speaker 1: damn if I'd stayed what I've done, but I was

1152
00:54:42,881 --> 00:54:46,761
Speaker 1: just so broken. Without realizing I was broken, it was

1153
00:54:46,761 --> 00:54:48,681
Speaker 1: probably the best thing to do because I was just

1154
00:54:48,721 --> 00:54:49,761
Speaker 1: taking away too many risks.

1155
00:54:50,481 --> 00:54:52,561
Speaker 2: So that's your would you say that's your biggest regret?

1156
00:54:53,721 --> 00:54:57,121
Speaker 1: Yeah, leaving as I did. Yeah, yeah, I resigned. Well,

1157
00:54:57,321 --> 00:54:59,881
Speaker 1: i'd applied for promotion, didn't get the job, and that's okay,

1158
00:54:59,961 --> 00:55:03,281
Speaker 1: when to get feedback and again a bit of a

1159
00:55:03,321 --> 00:55:06,121
Speaker 1: long story, but i'd been deck rated. I'm the only

1160
00:55:06,601 --> 00:55:11,081
Speaker 1: cop in Queensland it still and a bravery medic from

1161
00:55:11,081 --> 00:55:13,201
Speaker 1: the Australian government. I got that for this other thing.

1162
00:55:13,681 --> 00:55:15,761
Speaker 1: And I went and sat with this guy and said, look,

1163
00:55:15,761 --> 00:55:17,521
Speaker 1: I need some feedback about how to improve. And he

1164
00:55:18,001 --> 00:55:20,881
Speaker 1: fucking danced around for like forty minutes and he was

1165
00:55:20,921 --> 00:55:25,161
Speaker 1: a super sillious Smami pri and I said, I said, look,

1166
00:55:25,561 --> 00:55:28,281
Speaker 1: just give it to me straight. He went, well, okay,

1167
00:55:28,321 --> 00:55:32,561
Speaker 1: here's the problem. Too outspoken, you're too supportive of your people.

1168
00:55:32,601 --> 00:55:34,041
Speaker 1: You want to be promoted and need to be one

1169
00:55:34,041 --> 00:55:37,481
Speaker 1: of us, not one of them. Your challenge authority, your

1170
00:55:37,521 --> 00:55:39,921
Speaker 1: medals don't do you any favor. All the publicity you've got.

1171
00:55:39,961 --> 00:55:43,641
Speaker 1: Because I was in the mediumship, I right, okay, here's

1172
00:55:43,761 --> 00:55:48,241
Speaker 1: right back at you. I said, yeah, I'm outspoken because

1173
00:55:48,321 --> 00:55:51,401
Speaker 1: the people who run this organization, most of them are dickheads.

1174
00:55:52,281 --> 00:55:55,281
Speaker 1: I'll always challenge authority where people make stupid decisions to

1175
00:55:55,321 --> 00:55:58,161
Speaker 1: put the public at risk. In my people, I will

1176
00:55:58,161 --> 00:56:00,481
Speaker 1: always be inside of the people that I manage or

1177
00:56:00,561 --> 00:56:05,001
Speaker 1: lead because that's how leadership works. And as far as publicity,

1178
00:56:05,121 --> 00:56:06,761
Speaker 1: So don't wake up in the morning and have a

1179
00:56:06,801 --> 00:56:08,801
Speaker 1: fucking shower and a shave and look for a siege.

1180
00:56:08,801 --> 00:56:11,761
Speaker 1: I do them my job. By the way, be very

1181
00:56:11,761 --> 00:56:14,121
Speaker 1: careful in here, sir, because those paper cuts can be

1182
00:56:14,161 --> 00:56:17,201
Speaker 1: pretty bad. And I walked out, and that's almost word

1183
00:56:17,201 --> 00:56:19,481
Speaker 1: for word all these years, because it still kisses me.

1184
00:56:20,121 --> 00:56:23,001
Speaker 1: And I walked out and thought, that's it, man, I'm done.

1185
00:56:23,441 --> 00:56:26,201
Speaker 1: You know, I don't fit the mold anymore. Maybe never did.

1186
00:56:27,921 --> 00:56:30,321
Speaker 1: And I regret that because I resigned in a fit

1187
00:56:30,361 --> 00:56:34,681
Speaker 1: of anger and anger at you know, I thought I'd

1188
00:56:34,721 --> 00:56:36,801
Speaker 1: done a fair bit in my career. I'd done some

1189
00:56:36,881 --> 00:56:40,041
Speaker 1: ship that had saved lives, all of that stuff. And

1190
00:56:40,081 --> 00:56:44,361
Speaker 1: that was the attitude mistake, because in hindsight, that wasn't

1191
00:56:44,361 --> 00:56:47,201
Speaker 1: the attitude of a lot of people. That was attitude

1192
00:56:47,241 --> 00:56:49,121
Speaker 1: of one dickhead who I let get under the skin.

1193
00:56:50,281 --> 00:56:52,361
Speaker 1: That's a big regret, and that's a lesson I learned

1194
00:56:52,881 --> 00:56:53,841
Speaker 1: you know, that's so sad.

1195
00:56:54,041 --> 00:56:56,681
Speaker 2: Take a breath because all the work that you put

1196
00:56:56,681 --> 00:56:59,201
Speaker 2: in and you know, the yeah that you've done for

1197
00:56:59,241 --> 00:56:59,681
Speaker 2: the force.

1198
00:57:01,801 --> 00:57:04,881
Speaker 1: Look, I'm still very well regardless now issued, but it

1199
00:57:04,961 --> 00:57:06,441
Speaker 1: was It's just one of those things I felt that

1200
00:57:06,521 --> 00:57:09,921
Speaker 1: I'd failed. I felt that, you know, my goal is

1201
00:57:09,961 --> 00:57:13,641
Speaker 1: that scared little eight year old kid to be a

1202
00:57:13,681 --> 00:57:17,321
Speaker 1: lifetime in a lifetime career where I actually help people.

1203
00:57:17,841 --> 00:57:19,881
Speaker 1: I'd let myself down and that was part of my

1204
00:57:21,481 --> 00:57:23,521
Speaker 1: part of my PTSD. Part of that the way you

1205
00:57:23,801 --> 00:57:27,681
Speaker 1: don't really think logically about stuff. And it took me

1206
00:57:27,761 --> 00:57:29,121
Speaker 1: quite a while to come to terms with that.

1207
00:57:29,481 --> 00:57:34,641
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll ask you something before we go, and like,

1208
00:57:35,441 --> 00:57:37,961
Speaker 2: don't get me wrong, Like I to me, you deserve

1209
00:57:37,961 --> 00:57:41,481
Speaker 2: the medals that you got. Would you think what would

1210
00:57:41,561 --> 00:57:45,121
Speaker 2: you rather have the medals or the police force to

1211
00:57:45,121 --> 00:57:47,361
Speaker 2: have your back when at the end when you come

1212
00:57:47,401 --> 00:57:49,241
Speaker 2: out of like you're going through retirement or you leave

1213
00:57:49,241 --> 00:57:51,561
Speaker 2: the force and help you through mental health?

1214
00:57:51,681 --> 00:57:54,881
Speaker 1: Yeah, spot on. I'd give the medals up for that. Yeah, Yeah,

1215
00:57:54,921 --> 00:57:57,241
Speaker 1: and medals. I still get to be embarrassed about it.

1216
00:57:57,441 --> 00:58:00,001
Speaker 1: And I speak to people who've been decorated as well.

1217
00:58:00,001 --> 00:58:04,241
Speaker 1: We're all the same it's like it's on my website

1218
00:58:04,241 --> 00:58:05,881
Speaker 1: and as part of my publicity things.

1219
00:58:06,921 --> 00:58:09,121
Speaker 2: But to me, to me, when when you get an award,

1220
00:58:09,201 --> 00:58:10,441
Speaker 2: it's forgotten within five minutes.

1221
00:58:10,721 --> 00:58:13,561
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's been embarrassing to talk about it, you

1222
00:58:13,601 --> 00:58:14,041
Speaker 1: know what I mean.

1223
00:58:14,561 --> 00:58:18,081
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it's embarrassing, but for me it is okay. Well,

1224
00:58:18,721 --> 00:58:21,081
Speaker 2: like to me, it's it's something that you know, your

1225
00:58:21,121 --> 00:58:22,721
Speaker 2: life is. It's an achievement, you know what I mean,

1226
00:58:22,721 --> 00:58:24,761
Speaker 2: for what you've done. But to me, I just see

1227
00:58:24,801 --> 00:58:27,161
Speaker 2: it as a you know, it's a celebration for the

1228
00:58:27,161 --> 00:58:29,801
Speaker 2: police to put you look what we've done. But the

1229
00:58:29,801 --> 00:58:31,521
Speaker 2: thing is they don't back you up when you really

1230
00:58:31,561 --> 00:58:33,281
Speaker 2: need it. That's what you mean.

1231
00:58:33,361 --> 00:58:36,081
Speaker 1: Yeah, you are absolutely correct, And there's a lot of

1232
00:58:36,121 --> 00:58:42,121
Speaker 1: tall poppy syndrome. And you know, for me, if I yeah,

1233
00:58:42,401 --> 00:58:46,041
Speaker 1: if the choice was between having decorations, which you're right,

1234
00:58:46,321 --> 00:58:48,441
Speaker 1: they're just pieces of metal that sit on your chest

1235
00:58:48,561 --> 00:58:52,401
Speaker 1: once a year, or having the absolute support and backing

1236
00:58:52,401 --> 00:58:54,441
Speaker 1: of an organization to make sure that not just me,

1237
00:58:54,521 --> 00:58:58,881
Speaker 1: that everybody who leaves is looked after, is supported so

1238
00:58:58,921 --> 00:59:01,161
Speaker 1: that their mental health is the impacts on their mental

1239
00:59:01,201 --> 00:59:04,081
Speaker 1: health and minimized. I'd give those goings up every fucking

1240
00:59:04,121 --> 00:59:07,241
Speaker 1: day of the week because not enough is done. It's

1241
00:59:07,241 --> 00:59:09,961
Speaker 1: now my life passion, mate. I advocate for this every

1242
00:59:10,081 --> 00:59:17,081
Speaker 1: waking breath. I have that people. Every first responder, fieries, cops, paramedics,

1243
00:59:17,441 --> 00:59:20,441
Speaker 1: all of those people who work in that world. They're

1244
00:59:20,441 --> 00:59:23,441
Speaker 1: all touched by trauma. And it doesn't You don't have

1245
00:59:23,521 --> 00:59:26,721
Speaker 1: to be in a gunfight to have PSD. You can

1246
00:59:26,761 --> 00:59:29,841
Speaker 1: have moral injury that sits beside that, because you've witnessed

1247
00:59:29,881 --> 00:59:31,681
Speaker 1: things that go against your compass. There are things you

1248
00:59:31,721 --> 00:59:34,361
Speaker 1: couldn't do, things you wanted to do. All of that

1249
00:59:34,401 --> 00:59:37,521
Speaker 1: has an impact on genuine human beings. The problem we

1250
00:59:37,561 --> 00:59:40,401
Speaker 1: have is that we hide it way too long and

1251
00:59:40,401 --> 00:59:43,401
Speaker 1: then one day it overflows. You know. I've had the

1252
00:59:43,481 --> 00:59:45,361
Speaker 1: very sad news even last week. A friend of mine

1253
00:59:45,441 --> 00:59:50,121
Speaker 1: suicided and nobody saw it coming. And there were suicides

1254
00:59:50,161 --> 00:59:52,761
Speaker 1: in the first respond to space all around this country,

1255
00:59:53,441 --> 00:59:56,361
Speaker 1: and fucking not enough is done about it, you know.

1256
00:59:56,521 --> 00:59:59,401
Speaker 1: And they're these lip servers. And I think the problem

1257
00:59:59,441 --> 01:00:02,881
Speaker 1: is in organizations like that, people get promoted there, not

1258
01:00:02,961 --> 01:00:04,241
Speaker 1: all of them, but a lot of them are really

1259
01:00:04,281 --> 01:00:07,481
Speaker 1: motivated by the superinnuation out and benefit. I don't give a

1260
01:00:07,521 --> 01:00:11,241
Speaker 1: fuck the men and women, and the men and women

1261
01:00:11,281 --> 01:00:12,921
Speaker 1: on the cold face will tell you the same thing.

1262
01:00:13,601 --> 01:00:16,881
Speaker 1: You know. So now you've opened the floodgates, man, that's

1263
01:00:19,201 --> 01:00:23,121
Speaker 1: what would you describe you? One word? Me?

1264
01:00:23,401 --> 01:00:35,281
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, complicated. Wow, that's a really really intriguing story, Keith.

1265
01:00:35,481 --> 01:00:39,601
Speaker 2: And like it even even though like I've looked at

1266
01:00:39,641 --> 01:00:41,921
Speaker 2: it Google some of your book too. But when you

1267
01:00:42,001 --> 01:00:45,161
Speaker 2: tell me it's face to face and what you've done,

1268
01:00:45,281 --> 01:00:47,161
Speaker 2: especially on the cover, like that's insane, you know what

1269
01:00:47,201 --> 01:00:47,521
Speaker 2: I mean.

1270
01:00:47,601 --> 01:00:49,521
Speaker 1: And to come out it's.

1271
01:00:49,441 --> 01:00:51,801
Speaker 2: It's like when you say that two people who've been

1272
01:00:51,841 --> 01:00:54,161
Speaker 2: in the underworld you're out of it and you've come

1273
01:00:54,201 --> 01:00:56,721
Speaker 2: out of it and you're still here. But that to me,

1274
01:00:57,001 --> 01:01:00,801
Speaker 2: what you've done going in and you're not Keith Banks

1275
01:01:00,841 --> 01:01:02,681
Speaker 2: for two years, you know what I mean, And you've

1276
01:01:02,681 --> 01:01:05,361
Speaker 2: had to be whoever you've had to be. I mean,

1277
01:01:05,401 --> 01:01:09,201
Speaker 2: that's insane. Yeah, thanks mate. Look I look back on it,

1278
01:01:09,961 --> 01:01:11,961
Speaker 2: and as I said, nineteen was way too young to

1279
01:01:11,961 --> 01:01:14,081
Speaker 2: be a cop in the first place, twenty two was

1280
01:01:14,121 --> 01:01:17,561
Speaker 2: way too young to be a deep undercover. And when

1281
01:01:17,761 --> 01:01:20,161
Speaker 2: our daughters were growing and they're in our thirty and

1282
01:01:20,201 --> 01:01:22,961
Speaker 2: twenty seven, when each of them turned twenty two. I

1283
01:01:23,041 --> 01:01:26,481
Speaker 2: remember looking at them thinking, fuck, wow, I was doing

1284
01:01:26,561 --> 01:01:29,321
Speaker 2: shit at your age that you know I should not

1285
01:01:29,401 --> 01:01:30,281
Speaker 2: have been involved in.

1286
01:01:30,361 --> 01:01:31,681
Speaker 1: Well, probably you were.

1287
01:01:31,721 --> 01:01:34,721
Speaker 2: Probably if you did it any older, I don't think

1288
01:01:34,761 --> 01:01:36,281
Speaker 2: you would have been as good as it.

1289
01:01:37,481 --> 01:01:38,761
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it was. It was.

1290
01:01:38,961 --> 01:01:40,841
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't think when you're younger. You just get

1291
01:01:40,881 --> 01:01:41,641
Speaker 2: on with it and you do it.

1292
01:01:41,721 --> 01:01:44,001
Speaker 1: Well, you're ten foot to foolproof, Yeah, and you just

1293
01:01:44,081 --> 01:01:46,081
Speaker 1: absolutely get on and think if I've done it when

1294
01:01:46,081 --> 01:01:48,841
Speaker 1: I was older, You're right, I would have had you yes, correct,

1295
01:01:49,081 --> 01:01:51,761
Speaker 1: you know, but again you know you can't. You can't

1296
01:01:51,841 --> 01:01:54,841
Speaker 1: change the past. It is we are. We are a

1297
01:01:54,841 --> 01:01:58,001
Speaker 1: reflection of what our experiences are, or the constant result

1298
01:01:58,041 --> 01:02:01,881
Speaker 1: of what our experiences are. And without that two years,

1299
01:02:01,921 --> 01:02:05,361
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be the person that I am now, good

1300
01:02:05,401 --> 01:02:05,681
Speaker 1: or bad.

1301
01:02:06,881 --> 01:02:08,601
Speaker 2: Well, I want to thank you for coming on, that's

1302
01:02:08,601 --> 01:02:10,561
Speaker 2: sharing your story, and I think there's definitely going to

1303
01:02:10,601 --> 01:02:13,281
Speaker 2: be a part two. I think there's definitely going to

1304
01:02:13,321 --> 01:02:13,841
Speaker 2: be a part two.

1305
01:02:14,121 --> 01:02:16,241
Speaker 1: I really having a chat. It's nice to meet you

1306
01:02:16,241 --> 01:02:18,521
Speaker 1: in person. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. Thanks Keith,

1307
01:02:18,521 --> 01:02:23,401
Speaker 1: and look forward to part two. Thank you. M