1 00:00:03,420 --> 00:00:05,970 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Daily Interview. I'm Sean Aylmer. 2 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:09,000 Sean Aylmer: There aren't many businesses that can lay claim to the 3 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,260 Sean Aylmer: kind of growth achieved by today's guest. Shopper only launched 4 00:00:13,260 --> 00:00:16,650 Sean Aylmer: six years ago, quickly carving out and expanding a niche 5 00:00:16,650 --> 00:00:20,310 Sean Aylmer: in the highly competitive advertising space. You may well have 6 00:00:20,310 --> 00:00:22,560 Sean Aylmer: seen Shopper at work. They're behind many of the digital 7 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:26,250 Sean Aylmer: billboards in shopping centres. But these are billboards with a difference, 8 00:00:26,250 --> 00:00:29,670 Sean Aylmer: driven by sharp technology to target consumers in a way 9 00:00:29,670 --> 00:00:33,120 Sean Aylmer: that out of home advertising rarely has done before. It's 10 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:43,380 Sean Aylmer: a pretty impressive story. Ben Walker is the founder and CEO 11 00:00:43,380 --> 00:00:45,120 Sean Aylmer: of Shopper. Ben, welcome to Fear and Greed. 12 00:00:45,510 --> 00:00:47,820 Ben Walker: Yeah, thanks, Sean. And it's lovely to be here. Thanks 13 00:00:47,820 --> 00:00:48,629 Ben Walker: very much for your time. 14 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,390 Sean Aylmer: So when I'm going down the escalators in my local 15 00:00:51,390 --> 00:00:54,870 Sean Aylmer: shopping centre, I see these huge billboards rolled in front 16 00:00:54,870 --> 00:00:57,240 Sean Aylmer: of me. And as I'm walking into the local supermarket 17 00:00:57,240 --> 00:00:59,760 Sean Aylmer: and I'm reading kind of products for sale and that 18 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:00,900 Sean Aylmer: type of thing, that's you guys. 19 00:01:01,350 --> 00:01:05,399 Ben Walker: That's exactly right. Yes, that's us. We're in over 420 shopping 20 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:06,350 Ben Walker: centres around Australia. 21 00:01:07,530 --> 00:01:10,250 Sean Aylmer: Great. Now, I mentioned the growth of Shopper over the past six years. 22 00:01:10,260 --> 00:01:11,820 Sean Aylmer: Can you take me through some of the figures? Because 23 00:01:11,819 --> 00:01:13,620 Sean Aylmer: these are pretty incredible growth rates. 24 00:01:13,910 --> 00:01:16,320 Ben Walker: Well, look, obviously, we had a modest start, as any 25 00:01:16,620 --> 00:01:20,479 Ben Walker: start-up does, but by 2019, so we started trading in 2016, 26 00:01:20,490 --> 00:01:23,310 Ben Walker: by 2019, we were achieving 85 per cent year on 27 00:01:23,310 --> 00:01:27,340 Ben Walker: year growth in an industry that was nowhere near that. 2020, 28 00:01:27,810 --> 00:01:30,300 Ben Walker: obviously we were hit by COVID, we had 14 per 29 00:01:30,300 --> 00:01:33,000 Ben Walker: cent growth last year, which was incredible given that the 30 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,699 Ben Walker: out of home industry was about 40 per cent backwards. 31 00:01:35,790 --> 00:01:36,060 Sean Aylmer: Yeah. 32 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,000 Ben Walker: So we still had pretty good growth. And this year we're, 33 00:01:39,180 --> 00:01:41,550 Ben Walker: in calendar year to date, we're up to around about 34 00:01:41,550 --> 00:01:43,289 Ben Walker: 70 per cent growth year on year. 35 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:44,429 Sean Aylmer: Wow, that's great. 36 00:01:44,459 --> 00:01:46,830 Ben Walker: So we've got some pretty impressive figures. 37 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:51,120 Sean Aylmer: Your billboards, though, are kind of billboards with a difference. They're smart billboards 38 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,490 Sean Aylmer: and it's all about the technology. Can you explain that 39 00:01:53,490 --> 00:01:53,880 Sean Aylmer: to me? 40 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,030 Ben Walker: Yeah, that's exactly right. We had the luxury of starting 41 00:01:57,030 --> 00:02:00,480 Ben Walker: with a blank canvas back in 2015 when we started 42 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,270 Ben Walker: the company. As I said, we started trading in 2016 43 00:02:03,270 --> 00:02:06,180 Ben Walker: but had spent a year setting the place up. But 44 00:02:06,180 --> 00:02:08,460 Ben Walker: one of the things that we really realised was that 45 00:02:08,460 --> 00:02:12,660 Ben Walker: digital billboards and your mobile phones and devices will one 46 00:02:12,660 --> 00:02:15,419 Ben Walker: day speak to each other. And we realised that getting 47 00:02:15,419 --> 00:02:18,330 Ben Walker: the message onto the digital billboards usually will be done 48 00:02:18,330 --> 00:02:21,750 Ben Walker: by a wireless dongle, which is effectively a mobile phone 49 00:02:21,750 --> 00:02:23,820 Ben Walker: in the back of the panel, or it can be 50 00:02:23,820 --> 00:02:28,859 Ben Walker: done through Wi-Fi. Now, Wi-Fi is a much more expensive exercise, 51 00:02:28,860 --> 00:02:32,130 Ben Walker: but what Wi-Fi allows us to do is it allows 52 00:02:32,130 --> 00:02:35,610 Ben Walker: us to collect all sorts of mobility data. So in effect, 53 00:02:35,610 --> 00:02:38,370 Ben Walker: we see every single phone that comes into our environment. 54 00:02:38,790 --> 00:02:41,490 Ben Walker: We understand how long it stays, the time of day, 55 00:02:41,490 --> 00:02:44,430 Ben Walker: day of week, and how often it comes. So we're 56 00:02:44,430 --> 00:02:47,489 Ben Walker: able to collect a lot of really intelligent data about 57 00:02:47,669 --> 00:02:51,270 Ben Walker: the environments that our panels exist in. This is very 58 00:02:51,270 --> 00:02:54,300 Ben Walker: valuable to the property owners who use our data to 59 00:02:54,300 --> 00:02:57,959 Ben Walker: understand peak trading and things like that, but also really 60 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,950 Ben Walker: valuable data for our advertisers. As an example, when COVID struck, 61 00:03:01,950 --> 00:03:05,460 Ben Walker: we were the only out of home company in Australia 62 00:03:05,820 --> 00:03:09,600 Ben Walker: that had any form of mobility data plan. So we 63 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:11,550 Ben Walker: were able to understand what was going on with our 64 00:03:11,550 --> 00:03:15,750 Ben Walker: audience in real-time back in 2020 when COVID struck. What 65 00:03:15,750 --> 00:03:17,550 Ben Walker: we're able to see, one of the key things that 66 00:03:17,550 --> 00:03:20,750 Ben Walker: we saw was because we were in your local shopping centre, 67 00:03:20,760 --> 00:03:24,809 Ben Walker: so convenience based, during the panic buying, we saw our 68 00:03:24,900 --> 00:03:28,830 Ben Walker: audience actually increased by 15 per cent on Christmas trading 69 00:03:28,830 --> 00:03:29,340 Ben Walker: of 2019. 70 00:03:30,050 --> 00:03:30,280 Sean Aylmer: Wow. 71 00:03:30,419 --> 00:03:32,850 Ben Walker: So we were able to see what was going on 72 00:03:32,850 --> 00:03:36,420 Ben Walker: in real-time. As the panic buying subsided and you had 73 00:03:36,420 --> 00:03:38,640 Ben Walker: to line up to get into the supermarket, we saw 74 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,070 Ben Walker: increases in dwell time. So all of this we were 75 00:03:41,070 --> 00:03:42,210 Ben Walker: able to see in real-time. 76 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:44,520 Sean Aylmer: So where does the data come from? 77 00:03:44,940 --> 00:03:47,640 Ben Walker: Oh, look, we get our data sources from many different places. 78 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,150 Ben Walker: So obviously we've got the Wi-Fi data. But we've also 79 00:03:51,150 --> 00:03:53,640 Ben Walker: got a platform that we call Shopper AI, which is 80 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,420 Ben Walker: an amalgamation of a number of data sets, including all 81 00:03:57,420 --> 00:04:01,470 Ben Walker: of the Roy Morgan data, Nielsen scan data, virtually everything 82 00:04:01,470 --> 00:04:04,240 Ben Walker: that every bit of government data that there is, socio-economic 83 00:04:05,220 --> 00:04:09,900 Ben Walker: information for areas. So we were really able to geographically 84 00:04:09,900 --> 00:04:15,350 Ben Walker: pinpoint local communities. Because our local shopping centres have quite 85 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:19,920 Ben Walker: tight catchment areas, we're really able to understand the exact audience. 86 00:04:20,460 --> 00:04:22,680 Ben Walker: Give you an example. Right now we know that southwest 87 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,400 Ben Walker: Sydney has got a real problem with infection rates of COVID. 88 00:04:26,790 --> 00:04:29,729 Ben Walker: We also know that there's some language issues out there. 89 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,040 Ben Walker: So we are running a campaign for the New South 90 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,220 Ben Walker: Wales government right now in a number of different languages 91 00:04:35,550 --> 00:04:39,240 Ben Walker: with the appropriate language in the appropriate areas out in 92 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:40,010 Ben Walker: southwest Sydney. 93 00:04:40,350 --> 00:04:43,650 Sean Aylmer: Wow, incredible. So, I mean, in sense, the use case 94 00:04:43,650 --> 00:04:46,920 Sean Aylmer: for this is well beyond advertising. There's a social use 95 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:47,549 Sean Aylmer: case as well. 96 00:04:47,860 --> 00:04:51,089 Ben Walker: Oh, absolutely. The state and federal governments are probably one 97 00:04:51,089 --> 00:04:54,750 Ben Walker: of our biggest advertisers right now because we are absolute 98 00:04:54,750 --> 00:04:56,760 Ben Walker: experts at targeting local communities. 99 00:04:57,180 --> 00:05:00,450 Sean Aylmer: Wow. And so the actual technology, what you're saying kind 100 00:05:00,450 --> 00:05:02,980 Sean Aylmer: of makes sense to me, and it's not even like 101 00:05:02,980 --> 00:05:06,610 Sean Aylmer: it's a huge jump in technology, it's a big usage 102 00:05:06,610 --> 00:05:09,520 Sean Aylmer: of data and obviously you have the ability to manage 103 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,339 Sean Aylmer: that data, but otherwise it's just like a smart idea. 104 00:05:12,770 --> 00:05:16,780 Ben Walker: Yeah, that's pretty right. Pretty accurate right there. We are 105 00:05:16,779 --> 00:05:19,779 Ben Walker: doing other things that our network is 100 per cent digital. 106 00:05:19,940 --> 00:05:21,850 Ben Walker: As I said, we started with a blank canvas, so 107 00:05:21,850 --> 00:05:24,969 Ben Walker: we were able to set our platform up, only having 108 00:05:24,970 --> 00:05:27,969 Ben Walker: the best technology. We don't have any of the static poster 109 00:05:27,970 --> 00:05:31,300 Ben Walker: signage that any other players do have. And what that 110 00:05:31,300 --> 00:05:33,760 Ben Walker: allows us to do is really focus on the benefits 111 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:38,170 Ben Walker: of digital advertising. As an example, we have recently done 112 00:05:38,170 --> 00:05:40,810 Ben Walker: a campaign for a retailer where we were able to 113 00:05:40,810 --> 00:05:44,409 Ben Walker: plug an API (Application Programming Interface) into their booking system and rather than 114 00:05:44,410 --> 00:05:48,120 Ben Walker: talking about come and buy cheap something or other here, 115 00:05:48,130 --> 00:05:50,890 Ben Walker: I can't mention the advertiser's name, we were able to 116 00:05:50,890 --> 00:05:53,919 Ben Walker: say you can actually go and get a test for 117 00:05:54,310 --> 00:05:57,550 Ben Walker: the product that the retailer is selling and there's 19 118 00:05:57,550 --> 00:06:00,570 Ben Walker: tests in this shopping centre available today. So, you know, 119 00:06:00,610 --> 00:06:02,500 Ben Walker: this is the sort of leaps and bounds we're going 120 00:06:02,500 --> 00:06:03,790 Ben Walker: in with the technology. 121 00:06:03,860 --> 00:06:04,270 Sean Aylmer: Wow. 122 00:06:04,390 --> 00:06:06,549 Ben Walker: So it's very, very exciting. We hope to be doing 123 00:06:06,550 --> 00:06:09,350 Ben Walker: something similar for COVID testing in the not too distant future. 124 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,670 Sean Aylmer: It's a long way from traditional out of home advertising. 125 00:06:13,210 --> 00:06:16,049 Ben Walker: It's a very long way from traditional out of home advertising. 126 00:06:16,060 --> 00:06:19,299 Ben Walker: I won't say that the industry is not, we're all 127 00:06:19,300 --> 00:06:23,260 Ben Walker: trying to do this. However, having the Wi-Fi and the 128 00:06:23,260 --> 00:06:26,830 Ben Walker: digital network plus all of the data allows us to 129 00:06:26,980 --> 00:06:28,990 Ben Walker: probably put a greater focus on it because we don't 130 00:06:28,990 --> 00:06:32,140 Ben Walker: have to worry about getting traditional advertising, what they call 131 00:06:32,140 --> 00:06:34,270 Ben Walker: classic posters and billboards, sold. 132 00:06:34,660 --> 00:06:36,750 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Ben, and we'll be back in a minute. 133 00:06:41,870 --> 00:06:44,719 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Ben Walker, Founder and Chief 134 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,650 Sean Aylmer: Executive Officer of Shopper. So where does this go? I mean, 135 00:06:48,650 --> 00:06:50,510 Sean Aylmer: in a sense, you have a first-mover advantage and I'm 136 00:06:50,510 --> 00:06:53,420 Sean Aylmer: sure others will follow. Where do you see the future 137 00:06:53,420 --> 00:06:59,000 Sean Aylmer: for this sort of technology and AI? Where can it take your company and 138 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:01,039 Sean Aylmer: me as a consumer? What will I be seeing in 139 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:01,610 Sean Aylmer: the future? 140 00:07:01,910 --> 00:07:04,310 Ben Walker: Oh, look, we own, as does every other out of 141 00:07:04,310 --> 00:07:08,599 Ben Walker: home company, we own the physical assets. So everything physically 142 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,410 Ben Walker: you see within the shopping centres that we're in, that's us. However, 143 00:07:12,410 --> 00:07:15,290 Ben Walker: because of the Wi-Fi, we also own the virtual assets. 144 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:18,890 Ben Walker: So very soon we'll be launching new products that allow 145 00:07:18,890 --> 00:07:22,350 Ben Walker: us to take people on a journey through the virtual space. 146 00:07:22,730 --> 00:07:24,980 Ben Walker: And when I say that, I mean that when you 147 00:07:24,980 --> 00:07:27,830 Ben Walker: log on to the Wi-Fi, you have a much more 148 00:07:27,830 --> 00:07:30,980 Ben Walker: meaningful experience. You might be able to sample products up 149 00:07:30,980 --> 00:07:33,830 Ben Walker: there or apply to be someone that advertisers can send 150 00:07:33,830 --> 00:07:36,770 Ben Walker: products to. You might be able to participate in research. 151 00:07:36,770 --> 00:07:39,300 Ben Walker: There's many, many different things that we'll be able to do. 152 00:07:39,620 --> 00:07:42,200 Ben Walker: And again, when people do log on to the Wi-Fi, 153 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,170 Ben Walker: we have an opportunity to survey them as they're logging on. 154 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:47,990 Ben Walker: And we've got about one hundred and sixty thousand people 155 00:07:47,990 --> 00:07:51,680 Ben Walker: a month logging onto our Wi-Fi platform. So we're surveying 156 00:07:51,830 --> 00:07:55,520 Ben Walker: that many people each month. Just recently, we did a 157 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,180 Ben Walker: survey of 12,000 people, and we're able to understand that 158 00:07:59,180 --> 00:08:01,970 Ben Walker: probably one of the main reasons people are not getting 159 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,820 Ben Walker: vaccinated as fast as they can is that they don't 160 00:08:04,820 --> 00:08:06,470 Ben Walker: know how to get it done and where to get 161 00:08:06,470 --> 00:08:08,810 Ben Walker: it done and where it's available, which is a real 162 00:08:08,810 --> 00:08:10,520 Ben Walker: issue that we hope to address. 163 00:08:11,090 --> 00:08:13,070 Sean Aylmer: So what will your business look like in five to 164 00:08:13,070 --> 00:08:13,870 Sean Aylmer: 10 years time? 165 00:08:14,330 --> 00:08:17,870 Ben Walker: Look, we are very much a technology business that happens 166 00:08:17,870 --> 00:08:20,090 Ben Walker: to be an out of home business as well. So 167 00:08:20,090 --> 00:08:23,420 Ben Walker: we really look forward to making the virtual out of 168 00:08:23,420 --> 00:08:26,450 Ben Walker: home space a much bigger part of the business. And 169 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,200 Ben Walker: we seek to be the number one retail media provider 170 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:32,960 Ben Walker: in Australia. I think we're not far off from being 171 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:33,929 Ben Walker: that in that space. 172 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:36,470 Sean Aylmer: I'm just interested, Ben, what's your background? How did you get 173 00:08:36,470 --> 00:08:36,920 Sean Aylmer: into this? 174 00:08:37,850 --> 00:08:41,270 Ben Walker: Oh, look, I'm an out of home tragic. I'm not going to lie. I've been 175 00:08:41,270 --> 00:08:44,870 Ben Walker: in the industry for over 20 years now. I've worked 176 00:08:44,870 --> 00:08:48,260 Ben Walker: at various companies in the industry but spent about 15 177 00:08:48,260 --> 00:08:51,770 Ben Walker: years working for other people. I decided to leave not 178 00:08:51,770 --> 00:08:55,730 Ben Walker: necessarily to start this business, just because I wasn't enjoying employment at 179 00:08:55,730 --> 00:08:58,400 Ben Walker: a previous employer. But then I could see that there 180 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,610 Ben Walker: was a real gap in the industry and that retail 181 00:09:01,610 --> 00:09:04,310 Ben Walker: out of home was not at its best, was not 182 00:09:04,309 --> 00:09:06,380 Ben Walker: as good as it could be, and that there was 183 00:09:06,380 --> 00:09:09,470 Ben Walker: a significant amount of local shopping centres that just were 184 00:09:09,470 --> 00:09:12,530 Ben Walker: not being looked after as they should have. And I 185 00:09:12,530 --> 00:09:16,579 Ben Walker: could see that through building a digital network in local 186 00:09:16,580 --> 00:09:20,000 Ben Walker: shopping centres around the country and putting the Wi-Fi in 187 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,750 Ben Walker: allowing for the virtual space to be fulfilled was a 188 00:09:23,750 --> 00:09:27,140 Ben Walker: real opportunity for advertisers and shopping centre owners. 189 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:30,200 Sean Aylmer: And you enjoyed the whole startup community having been a 190 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:31,270 Sean Aylmer: tragic for so long? 191 00:09:31,820 --> 00:09:35,839 Ben Walker: I love the startup community. I really, really am passionate 192 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:38,300 Ben Walker: about it. It's been a hell of a journey for us. 193 00:09:38,300 --> 00:09:40,820 Ben Walker: I cannot even begin to tell you the amount of 194 00:09:41,150 --> 00:09:44,120 Ben Walker: hiccups and bumps we've had along the way, the many 195 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:47,210 Ben Walker: thousands of times we've relooked at the P&L(Profit and Loss Statement) trying to 196 00:09:47,210 --> 00:09:51,200 Ben Walker: understand what the implications of certain things that happen along 197 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,929 Ben Walker: the way are. You know, we've had legal battles. We've 198 00:09:53,929 --> 00:09:56,410 Ben Walker: had all sorts of things thrown at us that are 199 00:09:56,450 --> 00:09:59,480 Ben Walker: really curveballs. But many people have likened us to a 200 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,670 Ben Walker: cat with nine lives and I think we've probably been 201 00:10:01,670 --> 00:10:05,179 Ben Walker: through eight of them. But here we are and we're doing very well. 202 00:10:05,210 --> 00:10:07,670 Sean Aylmer: Well, you're on the road now. Ben, thank you for 203 00:10:07,670 --> 00:10:08,630 Sean Aylmer: talking to Fear and Greed. 204 00:10:08,780 --> 00:10:10,190 Ben Walker: Yeah. Thank you, Sean. Cheers. 205 00:10:10,460 --> 00:10:13,160 Sean Aylmer: That was Ben Walker, Founder and CEO of Shopper. 206 00:10:13,340 --> 00:10:15,410 Sean Aylmer: This is a Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join me 207 00:10:15,410 --> 00:10:17,690 Sean Aylmer: every morning for the full Fear and Greed podcast with 208 00:10:17,690 --> 00:10:20,229 Sean Aylmer: all the business news you need to know. I'm Sean Aylmer. 209 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:21,500 Sean Aylmer: Enjoy your day.