Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of the stand up comic John Mulaney,
Speaker 1: very funny man. And there's a bit from his twenty
Speaker 1: eighteen show Kid Gorgeous that I think about a lot.
Speaker 2: Yeah. One day, well it doesn't matter why, but I
Speaker 2: was sitting in a gazebo and there was a plaque
Speaker 2: on the gazebo and it said this gazebo was built
Speaker 2: by the town in eighteen sixty three, that is, in
Speaker 2: the middle of the Civil War, and the whole town
Speaker 2: built a gazebo. What was that town meeting?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: Like, all right, everyone, first order of business. We have
Speaker 2: all the telegrams from Gettysburg with the war dead. Let's
Speaker 2: see here. Okay, everyone's husband and brother and everyone died. Okay, Josiah,
Speaker 2: you had something, Yes I do. How'd you like to
Speaker 2: be indoors and out of doors all at once?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 2: May I introduce you too? And my condolence is again
Speaker 2: to everyone the gazebo.
Speaker 1: Building a gazebo during the Civil War classic. So here's
Speaker 1: the thing. I believe in the power and necessity of writing,
Speaker 1: of course I do. I'm devoted to that idea in
Speaker 1: various forms. But there are times when the world is
Speaker 1: particularly egregiously in a state of crisis, where this mounting
Speaker 1: sense of anxious futility takes hold, war and political venality
Speaker 1: and corporate greed and human misery at all sides. And
Speaker 1: that's not even to get into the climate emergency, the
Speaker 1: all too real possibility that this is all getting worse
Speaker 1: at an unsustainable pace. Sorry, not very cheery stuff, but
Speaker 1: in the wake of such royal and global disquiet, it's
Speaker 1: hard not to occasionally worry that stories, even powerful, brilliant, angry,
Speaker 1: engage stories that grapple directly with the present moment. These
Speaker 1: stories are just a distraction. They are an indulgence. People
Speaker 1: don't change their minds, let alone their behavior. The most
Speaker 1: compelling writing in the world still, by and large, speaks
Speaker 1: only to the people who are already primed to hear it.
Speaker 1: How is a beautiful poem, or an incisive essay, or
Speaker 1: a gripping page turner of a novel, not just building
Speaker 1: a gazebo in the Civil war. But without great writing,
Speaker 1: without great reading, we are lost. Our literature reminds us
Speaker 1: of our humanity, It shows us truths and allows us
Speaker 1: to conceive of an alternative to the worst of times.
Speaker 1: To read is to imagine and dream and empathize with others.
Speaker 1: We read because to read is to live, and the
Speaker 1: thing is the best Writers grapple every day with the
Speaker 1: above conundrum. Amongst the challenges of self belief and motivation,
Speaker 1: of drive and conviction, writers are asking all the time
Speaker 1: why the thing they write matters, and why it needs
Speaker 1: to be written and deserves to be read. James Bradley
Speaker 1: is a terrific journalist and writer of nonfiction, much of
Speaker 1: a concerned with the natural world and the myriad threats
Speaker 1: it faces. He brought out a book last year called
Speaker 1: deep Water that was this book length essay about the ocean.
Speaker 1: I cannot recommend it highly enough. As well as his
Speaker 1: science journalism, he's a formidable literary critic and the author
Speaker 1: of seven novels and a book of poetry. When James
Speaker 1: Bradley decides the story is worth telling, you're in no
Speaker 1: doubt He's thought long and hard about why. His latest
Speaker 1: is called Landfall, and It's a crime novel said in
Speaker 1: a volatile climate destroyed future vision of Sydney, where rising
Speaker 1: numbers of displaced people and refugees and rising sea levels
Speaker 1: have created a world on the edge against this backdrop,
Speaker 1: a young girl has gone missing and time is running
Speaker 1: out to find her and keep her safe. The world
Speaker 1: is in crisis. Thank god, there's something to read. I'm
Speaker 1: Michael Williams, and this is Read This the show about
Speaker 1: the books we love and the stories behind them. I
Speaker 1: wanted to start with the crime genre Beats of Landfall,
Speaker 1: rather than the climate or the speculative stuff. I wanted
Speaker 1: to start with crime, and I wanted to ask you
Speaker 1: whether you're a big reader of crime fiction.
Speaker 3: I am a reader of crime fiction, and I'm a
Speaker 3: real admirer of it. I mean, I think that the
Speaker 3: best of it is really I mean, it's really powerful writing,
Speaker 3: but it has a kind of capacity to, I guess,
Speaker 3: dive into the kind of fault lines both in societies
Speaker 3: and in human beings, which I think is really really interesting,
Speaker 3: and it's one of the things I really wanted to
Speaker 3: use when it came to this, because it seemed to
Speaker 3: me a really interesting way of thinking about the world
Speaker 3: I was trying to write about. But the only these
Speaker 3: things I love about crime is it's an incredibly elastic genre.
Speaker 3: So it's one of these kind of genres, it's incredibly various,
Speaker 3: people use it to do all sorts of things, but
Speaker 3: there's always that kind of social commentary kind of sitting
Speaker 3: at the heart of the stuff that I find a
Speaker 3: really interesting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I think that's something I like about it
Speaker 1: to I remember in an old interview I rank And
Speaker 1: talking about being able to take his character from a
Speaker 1: mansion or an opening gala in one scene to a
Speaker 1: commission flab in the next scene and not being incongruous
Speaker 1: when you're writing in crime, that you actually get the
Speaker 1: chance to cut through that cross section of a society
Speaker 1: in ways that are really useful.
Speaker 3: And yes, and then that is exactly what I wanted
Speaker 3: this to be able to do. So I wanted to
Speaker 3: write a book which kind of put a larger society
Speaker 3: at the center of it, which also allowed you to
Speaker 3: go from the world of the rich to the world
Speaker 3: of the very poor, from the world of displaced to
Speaker 3: the world of the people who are doing really well,
Speaker 3: and also to kind of pull in stories because one
Speaker 3: of the great things about crime is it's not just
Speaker 3: diving into kind of the social worlds, it's diving into
Speaker 3: kind of people's psychology in a really deep kind of way.
Speaker 3: I mean, there's that wonderful line which I thought was Chandler,
Speaker 3: but I must say I looked up recently and find it.
Speaker 3: But this person who may been Chandler talked about, you know,
Speaker 3: crime being the poetry of the city, and I kind
Speaker 3: of always loved that idea.
Speaker 1: There is also something about the police procedure, or the
Speaker 1: category into which your book falls, that is also you know,
Speaker 1: there's something about the psychology of people who are responsible
Speaker 1: for implementing the social strictures of the day. And increasingly,
Speaker 1: you know, as we've seen, the crime genre have to
Speaker 1: adapt to perhaps a more complex understanding of the challenges
Speaker 1: of modern policing and the ways in which it goes wrong.
Speaker 1: By having a protagonist whose job is to enforce the
Speaker 1: status quo, you manage to bring in tremendous complexity.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, And there was actually something I thought about a
Speaker 3: lot when I was writing it. I mean, I did
Speaker 3: worry a little bit about kind of inhabiting that side
Speaker 3: of the argument. I mean that kind of sense that
Speaker 3: you know, you wonder about the kind of ethics of
Speaker 3: writing from somebody you know who's a cop basically. But
Speaker 3: at the same time, as you say, there is a
Speaker 3: kind of complexity that brings to bear and I think
Speaker 3: that's absolutely present in the novel. I mean, one of
Speaker 3: the things that the novel does is the main character
Speaker 3: of someone who has ended up on the wrong side
Speaker 3: of a whole series of those questions. You know, she's
Speaker 3: been the subject of harassment, she has gotten herself into
Speaker 3: trouble with other officers, and is someone who is very
Speaker 3: aware of the kind of deficiencies I guess of the
Speaker 3: organization that she works for and the kinds of work
Speaker 3: that she does, but also wants to do the right thing.
Speaker 1: How conscious are you when writing into a genre space
Speaker 1: of how useful the familiar or expected beats are that
Speaker 1: you can get away with certain shorthands or certain things
Speaker 1: because you know that a readership is well conditioned in
Speaker 1: the conventions into which you're writing. I'm thinking, for example,
Speaker 1: you know your protagonist has a new partner who she's
Speaker 1: meeting for the first time at the start of the book.
Speaker 1: That's such a class see crime genre trope that rather
Speaker 1: than an established partnership, you get their unmise and the
Speaker 1: distrust and the working out can they be a team
Speaker 1: or are they going to be at odds? Is that
Speaker 1: part of the farm of writing into genre to be
Speaker 1: able to go, Okay, I know what these beats look like,
Speaker 1: and then I can subvert them or embrace them as
Speaker 1: I see fit.
Speaker 3: I think people often think about genre as a kind
Speaker 3: of box that you put things into, and I never
Speaker 3: see it like that. I always see genre as a
Speaker 3: kind of toolkit, you know, that you can kind of say, look,
Speaker 3: here's this thing that will be really interesting, here's this
Speaker 3: thing that will be really useful for the kind of
Speaker 3: story that I want to tell, and then you can
Speaker 3: take that and use it. You know. You talk about
Speaker 3: those kind of established beats, but one of the things
Speaker 3: that those beats do is they let readers understand what
Speaker 3: kind of story it is. You know, they kind of
Speaker 3: just say they do quite a lot of the work
Speaker 3: for you immediately. And there is something very pleasurable about
Speaker 3: hitting those beats that kind of sense there's this kind
Speaker 3: of sturdy genre of shape there that you're working with
Speaker 3: that will take you somewhere, which you can also then
Speaker 3: subvert and play with in different kinds of ways, you know.
Speaker 3: And I find I actually find that, as you say,
Speaker 3: really enjoyable about being able to say, look, this is
Speaker 3: going to work like this, because I know that that
Speaker 3: kind of thing works.
Speaker 1: It seems to me one of the underpinning things of
Speaker 1: crime fiction is a crime occurs. In the case of
Speaker 1: this book, a child goes missing, and that's a disruption
Speaker 1: to the natural order of things. And so then what
Speaker 1: we want is our detective protagonist to somehow restore peace
Speaker 1: and restore harmony and let the world keep ticking over
Speaker 1: without this fracture of this terrible act. But of course,
Speaker 1: if you set your crime novel in a climate apocalyptic
Speaker 1: future where the natural order is already completely destroyed, completely
Speaker 1: disturbed as a reader, that immediately unsettles. We're not restoring
Speaker 1: the status quo. We're just trying to hang on to
Speaker 1: whatever can be left.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's a really good way of encapsulating
Speaker 3: what the book's trying to do. I mean, what I
Speaker 3: wanted to do was to kind of push those things
Speaker 3: up against each other, that sense that you have a
Speaker 3: world that is profoundly out of balance already, and then
Speaker 3: this other thing happens in it, and there's not a
Speaker 3: sense that world can get put back together. I mean,
Speaker 3: one of things I found really interesting about writing it
Speaker 3: was when I wrote Clade, which is probably you know,
Speaker 3: it's probably nearly fifteen years ago. Now, there wasn't much
Speaker 3: fiction in that kind of climate space, and one of
Speaker 3: the things I was doing, quite self consciously, was trying
Speaker 3: to work out what kind of story you could tell
Speaker 3: that would let you talk about climate, because climate is
Speaker 3: such an amorphous and difficult thing to kind of write about.
Speaker 3: You know, the tools of the novelists are essentially kind
Speaker 3: of social tools around character and setting and things like that,
Speaker 3: and climate doesn't resolve into those things. You know, it's
Speaker 3: a kind of global messy thing. And you know, I
Speaker 3: came up with a kind of series of solutions to
Speaker 3: that problem, which were about kind of as I think
Speaker 3: other people did, about kind of the developing different sorts
Speaker 3: of narrative shapes that could kind of hold that story.
Speaker 3: And what's kind of fascinating to me, is it, ten
Speaker 3: years down the track, you can say it none to
Speaker 3: rite a crime story in that space, Like there's something
Speaker 3: about that sense that that space has altered, that the
Speaker 3: world has altered around us in ways. It emits telling
Speaker 3: stories in that space that are in a sense more
Speaker 3: conventionally shaped, but which don't feel you know, climate's a
Speaker 3: really big part of this novel. It's kind of right
Speaker 3: at the center of it. But in a sense, it's
Speaker 3: not the subject of the novel, it's the context of
Speaker 3: the novel. It's the world of the novel lives in.
Speaker 3: And I guess there's something really interesting to me about
Speaker 3: the way that we've gone from having to develop these
Speaker 3: shapes to be able to just position it within our world.
Speaker 3: That says something about how much the kind of process
Speaker 3: of climate change has moved over that decade or decade
Speaker 3: and a half.
Speaker 1: You talked about the ways in which the context, the timing,
Speaker 1: the place, the geopolitical and climate realities of this book
Speaker 1: are not the subject, but they're the world. Tell me
Speaker 1: how much world building you did before you dropped your
Speaker 1: story into the middle of it. Did you begin with
Speaker 1: an idea? Did you begin because I know you're a
Speaker 1: great reader and writer of science journalism of different sorts.
Speaker 1: Did you project a particular path for the world before
Speaker 1: you started telling the story or did that kind of
Speaker 1: become clear to you as you went along?
Speaker 3: Look, I think both, to be honest. I mean, I
Speaker 3: think my initial idea was that I wanted to find
Speaker 3: a way of writing something which put kind of climate
Speaker 3: migration at the center, Like i'd already written several books
Speaker 3: with kind of climate in them, but I wanted one
Speaker 3: that was more explicitly engaged with kind of questions of
Speaker 3: justice and questions of dislocation and you know, refugees, those
Speaker 3: kinds of issues. And I guess what I thought to
Speaker 3: myself was something along the lines of it's you know,
Speaker 3: it's maybe a generation from now, thirty years And then
Speaker 3: I thought, so, what's happened. It's much hotter, and water,
Speaker 3: I knew was a really big part of the novel.
Speaker 3: I wanted that sense of rising water, of rain and flooding,
Speaker 3: of all of those kinds of things kind of intruding
Speaker 3: into the book. I also generally have a view that
Speaker 3: with this kind of fiction, you don't want to put
Speaker 3: that stuff at the center. I mean, generally, we don't
Speaker 3: talk about the things that are the fabric of our world.
Speaker 3: They're just there, you know. We don't talk about the
Speaker 3: phones that we carry around. We don't talk about the weather,
Speaker 3: you know, like it's just part of the fabric of
Speaker 3: the world. So what I wanted to do was have
Speaker 3: that sense that you're in a world and then you
Speaker 3: kind of glimped the structure of it in the background.
Speaker 1: I guess when we returned, James discusses the creation of
Speaker 1: his lead characters and reveals by kindness is so important
Speaker 1: both in his novel and in the world.
Speaker 3: Right back, I.
Speaker 1: Want to get to your protagonist and her family in
Speaker 1: a moment, but before we get to them, i'd love
Speaker 1: it if you could talk a little bit about Tassin
Speaker 1: as a character, because he's incredibly important to the book
Speaker 1: and is very resonant with a number of your previous novels.
Speaker 1: He's the kind of character that I think of as
Speaker 1: a quintessentially James Bradley's creation.
Speaker 3: Well, that's really interesting to seem. As a young Indonesian guy,
Speaker 3: he's about sixteen, and he has left Indonesia because Indonesia
Speaker 3: is a complete disaster. You know, there are storms, there
Speaker 3: are heat waves, and his mother and his sister die
Speaker 3: in one of these heat waves. And so he kind
Speaker 3: of makes his way to Australia on a boat and
Speaker 3: ends up in detention and then eventually leaves detention and
Speaker 3: in the course of the novel finds him self stumbling
Speaker 3: across this crime as it happens and is trying to
Speaker 3: find the missing girl at the same time as the
Speaker 3: as the detective is, and he is He's a character
Speaker 3: I felt a lot of kind of affection for. He's
Speaker 3: this bright, kind kid who's trying to get by, but
Speaker 3: is also bearing this kind of massive weight of trauma.
Speaker 3: His story in many ways carries a lot of the
Speaker 3: kind of thematic weight of the novel. I think, you know,
Speaker 3: because although he is now in this city that's half flooded,
Speaker 3: you know, he's kind of bearing that stuff around, but
Speaker 3: he has this goodness about him. You know, he's someone
Speaker 3: who is actually trying to do this thing, trying to
Speaker 3: find this kid, and not because he has to do it,
Speaker 3: because he thinks he needs to, you know, in a
Speaker 3: world that has not helped him.
Speaker 1: To sim embodies that sense of common humanity in the
Speaker 1: face of kind of no reason to maintain faith in
Speaker 1: those things, no reason to feel a responsibility to them
Speaker 1: or to be driven by that in any way. And
Speaker 1: yet he just almost unthinkingly identifies a space where he's
Speaker 1: required to help, and he puts himself into that role.
Speaker 1: And I think in a story set against climate catastrophe,
Speaker 1: that's kind of the human question is how does a
Speaker 1: single missing child, how does a small scale in many ways,
Speaker 1: small scale crime story have weight in the context of
Speaker 1: global disaster.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean, in fact, that sense of kindness
Speaker 3: of doing the right thing is really kind of central
Speaker 3: to the novel. I mean, it's a novel that at
Speaker 3: one level is quite bleak, you know. I mean, it's
Speaker 3: set in this kind of ruined world, but you have
Speaker 3: people in it trying to do the right thing, and
Speaker 3: there are kind of random acts of kindness at various
Speaker 3: points in the book. And I actually think that's really important.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that we we live in a
Speaker 3: world which does a series of things. One of them
Speaker 3: is that it tells us that in bad situations, people
Speaker 3: behave badly, and in fact, the evidence is that that's
Speaker 3: not the case. I mean, you only have to look
Speaker 3: at what happened up in the floods a couple of
Speaker 3: years ago, the Northern Rivers, you know, the government failed
Speaker 3: to turn up, and people went out in their tenees
Speaker 3: and of rescued their neighbors and looked after each other.
Speaker 3: But also because I think we live in a cultural
Speaker 3: moment where there is this notion that somehow kindness is
Speaker 3: weakness and that cruelty is strength, I think actually pushing
Speaker 3: back on that's really really important because I don't think
Speaker 3: that's true at all. I mean, I actually think kindness
Speaker 3: is a kind of superpower.
Speaker 1: I think one of the key tools in any novel.
Speaker 1: But in this novel, you're a protagonist, Senior Detective Azad Sada,
Speaker 1: And in particular, I'm thinking about her relationship with her father, AmAm,
Speaker 1: which is incredibly moving and a mum is in a
Speaker 1: rapidly deteriorating state, suffering from dementia, and so you have
Speaker 1: this kind of very real illustration of that sense of loss,
Speaker 1: that sense of things slipping away, and that sense of
Speaker 1: not being at home in this new reality. Can you
Speaker 1: talk a bit about your conception of Sadah and her
Speaker 1: relationship with her father at the heart of this book.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's interesting you say that about him, because one
Speaker 3: of the things I very much wanted Amom to be
Speaker 3: is he's someone who's kind of losing his memory, and
Speaker 3: he is a literal example of this sense of the
Speaker 3: slipping away of a kind of past, that kind of
Speaker 3: sense that you're now lost in this new reality. So
Speaker 3: she is the studio, is the daughter of an Australian
Speaker 3: mother and of Aman who's a Bangladeshi. She was born
Speaker 3: in Bangladesh. They came to Australia after the melt where
Speaker 3: there's this kind of catastrophic rise in sea levels after
Speaker 3: lots of Antarctica collapses, and she's kind of grown up here,
Speaker 3: but she, in the same way that Tasimas is carrying
Speaker 3: a lot of trauma and a lot of past, and
Speaker 3: the two of them are together in this quite complicated
Speaker 3: kind of way. She's now caring for him. They've clearly
Speaker 3: had quite a complicated relationship over the years. But that
Speaker 3: sense of her trying to juggle, trying to juggle these
Speaker 3: two things, trying to juggle this kind of job as
Speaker 3: a police detective and this job of caring for someone
Speaker 3: who's in such a such a difficult state, is something
Speaker 3: that I felt I really wanted for her, that kind
Speaker 3: of sense that she's someone who's been pulled in multiple
Speaker 3: directions at once.
Speaker 1: Before I let you go, I have to ask the
Speaker 1: ways in which the climate elements of this imagined future playout.
Speaker 1: Please tell me they're entirely imagined. Are not the basis
Speaker 1: of kind of very credible research you've done in a
Speaker 1: likely scenario for five years, ten years. Hence, James Bradley,
Speaker 1: tell me you made. Lol up, tell me it's all pretend.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think that the world of the book
Speaker 3: is a kind of extrapolation from where we are. It's
Speaker 3: not a particularly unre sa one, I don't think. I
Speaker 3: think on the track that we're on, it's a pretty
Speaker 3: reasonable one at the moment. I've thought a lot over
Speaker 3: the last you know, year or two about where we
Speaker 3: are with climate, and if you'd ask me ten years ago,
Speaker 3: I would have said that I thought that there will
Speaker 3: come a moment where the dissonance between what's happening in
Speaker 3: our lack of action will become so great that there'll
Speaker 3: be a kind of shift in public sentiment, that we
Speaker 3: will move from denial to panic. And I don't know
Speaker 3: that I think that's true anymore. I mean, I think
Speaker 3: half of LA burned down a few months ago, and
Speaker 3: people looked at it and said that's because of diversity
Speaker 3: policies in the LA Fire Department. So that kind of
Speaker 3: sense that there's going to be this kind of sea
Speaker 3: change in opinion, I don't think that's there. And I
Speaker 3: mean I look at our political leadership in Australia and
Speaker 3: it's profound lack of action on a series of things
Speaker 3: that are happening. You know, we're still opening fossil fuel projects.
Speaker 3: Were still I mean in Sydney around the corner for me,
Speaker 3: there's a new block of Flatch which one of the
Speaker 3: advertisements for it, you know, boasts that it's got gas
Speaker 3: connections all through it. I mean this kind of sense
Speaker 3: that we're not even doing the kind of basic stuff
Speaker 3: that we need to do. And I think increasingly the
Speaker 3: lesson we need to take from that is that, you know,
Speaker 3: nobody is coming to save us. You know, at the
Speaker 3: end of the day, it's actually up to us. Our
Speaker 3: governments are not going to save us, and this kind
Speaker 3: of handing over of responsibility to other people can't continue.
Speaker 3: Like we actually have to start saying to ourselves they're
Speaker 3: not going to save us, these guys are actually the problem,
Speaker 3: and start asking some hard questions about what we do
Speaker 3: about that.
Speaker 1: James Bradley's latest novel, Landfall, is available at all good
Speaker 1: bookstores now, and I remind that work of nonfiction from
Speaker 1: last year is called deep Water. It's also terrific. I
Speaker 1: recommend you get both before we go a bit of
Speaker 1: recommended further reading, and it's one that I meant to
Speaker 1: recommend back at the time, and it somehow passed me by,
Speaker 1: but it won the Victorian Premier's Literary Award earlier this year,
Speaker 1: and it reminded me that it was worth dredging back
Speaker 1: to July twenty twenty four for a really terrific read.
Speaker 1: It's another crime ish book by Fiona McFarlane. It's called
Speaker 1: Highway thirteen and it's this collection of short stories all
Speaker 1: centered around the fallout from a series of backpacker murders
Speaker 1: along a stretch of highway. That sounds grim, I know,
Speaker 1: but mcfarlan's this gorgeous writer, and what she does with
Speaker 1: it is telescope out in time and look at the
Speaker 1: various reverberations of a crime and of a story that
Speaker 1: captures local and national imagination like that. It's called Highway
Speaker 1: thirteen and it's a terrific read. You can find it
Speaker 1: and all the other books we mentioned today at your
Speaker 1: favorite independent bookstore. That's it for this week's show. If
Speaker 1: you enjoyed, please tell your friends and rate and review us.
Speaker 1: It helps a lot. Even the weird review that appeared
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcast this week, which appears to be either
Speaker 1: selling something or referencing something else. I don't think it's
Speaker 1: about our show, but they gave us five stars anyway,
Speaker 1: so I'll take it. Next week, I'm read this. I'm
Speaker 1: sitting down with Australian writer Josephine Rowe to discuss her
Speaker 1: ghostly new novel Little World.
Speaker 4: I tend to put things down for a while, put
Speaker 4: them in the third or let let them kind of
Speaker 4: mature a bit. And I'm a kind of ruthless condenser.
Speaker 4: So it's, you know, a very short novel, but I
Speaker 4: hope it feels a bit like it's eaten a larger novel,
Speaker 4: because that's pretty much the breadth of it in terms
Speaker 4: of writing.
Speaker 1: Read This is a Schwartz Media production, made possible by
Speaker 1: the generous support of ar Group. The show is produced
Speaker 1: and edited by Clara Ames, with mixing by Travis Evans
Speaker 1: and original compositions by Zalton Fetcher, Posey mcacky hit Its
Speaker 1: our transcripts. Thanks for listening, See you next week.