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Speaker 1: His philosophy was that this is a story too great

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Speaker 1: for people who hadn't been involved in it to understand,

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Speaker 1: and he just said, we will never the people at

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Speaker 1: home will never understand what it meant to charge the

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Speaker 1: trenches at Lone Pine or to fight across that desolate

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Speaker 1: plane at Crithia.

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Speaker 2: I'm Jen Kelly from The Herald Son and Missus in

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Speaker 2: Black and White, a podcast about some of Australia's forgotten characters.

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Speaker 2: Today we'll hear the life story of a remarkable man

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Speaker 2: whose name has popped up frequently in our episodes over

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Speaker 2: the past five years. His name was Charles Bean, and

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Speaker 2: he's best known as the official historian of World War One.

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Speaker 2: He documented the war in six extraordinary volumes and then

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Speaker 2: went on to establish the Australian War Memorial. But today

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Speaker 2: we're going to hear about another fascinating side to the

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Speaker 2: life of a man best known as a journalist and historian.

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Speaker 2: As the official correspondent at Gallipoli, Been willingly put his

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Speaker 2: life in danger time after time to join the ANZAC

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Speaker 2: troops advancing on the front line in order to report

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Speaker 2: the action through their eyes. At the deadly Battle of Crithia,

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Speaker 2: where the Australians suffered enormous losses. Bean risked his life

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Speaker 2: to place himself at the heart of the action. Despite

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Speaker 2: being a civilian armed only with a notebook and writing implements,

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Speaker 2: Bean was an active participant. He dragged a wounded man

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Speaker 2: to safety, for which he was recommended for a Bravery Award,

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Speaker 2: and he was nearly killed several times. To share the tale,

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Speaker 2: we're talking again to military historian Matt McLaughlin, who tells

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Speaker 2: the amazing story and many others in an upcoming book

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Speaker 2: called Crithia about the long forgotten Anzac Battle. Matt is

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Speaker 2: best known as the founder of Matt McLachlin Battlefield Tours

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Speaker 2: and he's the host of the Living History podcast. Now

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Speaker 2: Matt is here with the story of times been Welcome

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Speaker 2: back to the podcast, Matt.

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Speaker 3: Great to be back.

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Speaker 2: Jen, No, it is always great chatting to you, but

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Speaker 2: this week it's particularly exciting because you're about to release

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Speaker 2: a new book.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm very excited.

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Speaker 1: It's the end of a two year project, so I

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Speaker 1: think anyone who's written a book out there will understand

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Speaker 1: just the trials and tribulations and what a commitment it is.

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Speaker 1: And I'm very excited that we've reached the end of

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Speaker 1: that process and the new book's coming out.

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Speaker 2: Congratulations. Now we're talking today about Charles Bean. Was Charles

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Speaker 2: been always destined to be a writer?

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Speaker 1: Do you think it's a great question. He's an interesting bloke.

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Speaker 1: Charles been a bit of an enigma. He's someone that

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Speaker 1: I've admired for a long time. I think we'd say

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Speaker 1: he's an unusual guy by our modern standards. He's not

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Speaker 1: a typical ossie that we would meet today. He's very

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Speaker 1: much from an earlier time and he was very much

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Speaker 1: a man of his time. And so I think it's

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Speaker 1: a rather long witted answer, you Ques, but I think yes,

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Speaker 1: he always was destined to be a writer. He always

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Speaker 1: loved writing, He always loved telling stories. So I think

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Speaker 1: he always was going to write, but it was an

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Speaker 1: interesting journey to get there.

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Speaker 2: Whereabouts did he grow up?

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Speaker 1: He was born in Bathurst and grew up in New

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Speaker 1: South Wales, but his father suffered from ill health and

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Speaker 1: moved them to England, and ancestrally he'd been His family

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Speaker 1: was from England, and so I think that's a key

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Speaker 1: part of his character. He was always very British. He

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Speaker 1: was a proud Australian and he definitely saw the strengths

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Speaker 1: and the weaknesses of the Australian character, but he saw

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Speaker 1: himself as very British as well at the same time,

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Speaker 1: and I think what he saw in Australia was the

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Speaker 1: best of Britain. So I think that's really essential to

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Speaker 1: establish at the outset is he saw Australia as an

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Speaker 1: important component of Britain in many ways, and he saw

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Speaker 1: good Australians as good British subjects, and he saw himself

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Speaker 1: as at least partly.

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Speaker 3: British as well.

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Speaker 2: And where was he educated.

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Speaker 1: He was educated at Clifton College, which I think is

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Speaker 1: interesting because a number of other prominent, prominent people who

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Speaker 1: would serve in the war were old boys of that school.

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Speaker 1: Sir Douglas Haigue is probably the most prominent, the commander

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Speaker 1: of the entire British forces, but also William Birdwood, who

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Speaker 1: would command the ANZACs at Gallipoli, was also an old

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Speaker 1: boy of Clifton College. And Bean went on to study

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Speaker 1: at Oxford as well, But Clifton always had a big

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Speaker 1: impact on him and a lot of the values that

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Speaker 1: he learned as a boy studying at Clifton College in

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Speaker 1: the UK stuck with him and he played a lot

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Speaker 1: of cricket there he learned about what he thought it

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Speaker 1: was to be a man and a good citizen of

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Speaker 1: the world. But in addition, an interesting little footnote that

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Speaker 1: I've discovered about him is that later in life, when

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Speaker 1: he lived in Sydney, well after the war and in

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Speaker 1: the late stages of his life, he lived in a

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Speaker 1: house in Lynnfield which he called Clifton after his school.

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Speaker 1: And then he moved to Coleroy, actually very near to

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Speaker 1: where I lived for a long period of time. And

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Speaker 1: one day I went for a drive around just trying

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Speaker 1: to see if I could find the house that being

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Speaker 1: lived in in his later years, And as I was

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Speaker 1: driving down a street which I knew was the street

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Speaker 1: he lived in, I saw a house at the end

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Speaker 1: of the street with the word Clifton written on the

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Speaker 1: front of the house.

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Speaker 3: So even at the end of.

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Speaker 1: His life, when he was a man in his eighties,

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Speaker 1: he was still living in a house named after his

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Speaker 1: school in England.

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Speaker 2: So at some point did the whole family move back

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Speaker 2: from the UK to Australia.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they came back eventually, or Bean came back after

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Speaker 1: his studies, after he studied at Oxford.

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Speaker 3: He came back to Australia.

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Speaker 1: And part of the experience he'd had while he was

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Speaker 1: in Europe was his family had spent a bit of

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Speaker 1: time in Belgium, and as part of that experience, Bean

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Speaker 1: had spent quite a bit of time on the battlefield

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Speaker 1: of Waterloo, which is very close to Brussels. And while

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Speaker 1: there he'd walked the fields and picked up relics from

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Speaker 1: the fighting which had taken place less than a century

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Speaker 1: before he'd been there, and I think that imbued in

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Speaker 1: him a sense of the importance of walking the ground,

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Speaker 1: the importance of touching and feeling tangibles from the battle,

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Speaker 1: because he visited the museum at Waterloo and saw all

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Speaker 1: the relics and found some relics himself on the battlefield.

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Speaker 1: And he always said that that was a really important

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Speaker 1: contribution to his understanding of warfare and to the story

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Speaker 1: of what would come on later in his life after

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Speaker 1: the First World War.

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Speaker 2: So, before we talk about the important events of World

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Speaker 2: War One, are there any more key points from his

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Speaker 2: background before the war that we should know about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Basically, he studied as he studied law and took the bar,

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Speaker 1: so it was working as a lawyer, but it really

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Speaker 1: wasn't for him. And he knew Banjo Patterson quite well

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Speaker 1: and they both worked together in Sydney on various newspapers,

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Speaker 1: and Banjo Patterson had served as a war correspondent during

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Speaker 1: the Boer War, so I think this was a source

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Speaker 1: of inspiration to be leading into the First World War.

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Speaker 1: But in the first sort of fifteen years of the

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Speaker 1: new century, being traveled around Australia a lot, he wrote

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Speaker 1: a lot of articles about the bushmen of Australia. He

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Speaker 1: developed this love for the idea of the country and

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Speaker 1: the man from snowy River and men riding their horses

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Speaker 1: around and the hardy bush people. He really developed this

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Speaker 1: love for it in the first ten or fifteen years

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Speaker 1: of the century and that influenced what would happen during

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Speaker 1: the First World War. Sage and been a very well

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Speaker 1: educated man, tall and skinny, red hair glasses, not a

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Speaker 1: typical soldier or a typical even journalist, you'd imagine, very

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Speaker 1: good with a pen, very observant. He was quite a

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Speaker 1: dry writer during his time, and he once said quite

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Speaker 1: condescendingly that he wanted to write prose, that a housewife

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Speaker 1: of middling intelligence would understand, not a very acceptable statement

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Speaker 1: these days, but it illustrates that he had this desire

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Speaker 1: to write plainly and simply and without flowery prose, which

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Speaker 1: was the sort of the style of the day, and

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Speaker 1: so that would have a big influence on what he

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Speaker 1: would write during the First World War and in later years.

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Speaker 2: Will take us forward to the war and how did

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Speaker 2: it come to be known as the father of the

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Speaker 2: Anzac legend.

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Speaker 1: Well, there was a number of prominent journalists who were

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Speaker 1: sort of lobbying to become the correspondent for the Australians

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Speaker 1: during the First World War. It was known that the

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Speaker 1: Australian government would appoint an official correspondent, just one journalist

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Speaker 1: whose job it would be to travel with the Australians

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Speaker 1: as they went off to fight in the First World

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Speaker 1: War and to write their story. There would be a

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Speaker 1: number of war correspondents who would be selected throughout the

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Speaker 1: course of the war, but it was always known that

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Speaker 1: there would be one official, dominant war correspondent, and so

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Speaker 1: a number of journalists lobbied for that. But it was

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Speaker 1: Bean that was selected rather I think unexpectedly. I don't

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Speaker 1: think too many people thought he would get the gig

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Speaker 1: but Bean was then selected to be the official war

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Speaker 1: correspondent for Australia and left with the first contingent of

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Speaker 1: troops at the end of nineteen fourteen to head overseas,

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Speaker 1: first to Egypt and then obviously to Gallipoli. They didn't

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Speaker 1: know it at the time when they left Australia that

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Speaker 1: Gallipoli would be their destination, but being traveled with them

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Speaker 1: from the earliest days, so he saw the Australians in training,

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Speaker 1: he saw British troops during training, and he started to

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Speaker 1: establish this feeling that the Australians were more manly, that

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Speaker 1: they were stronger. He came up with this idea that

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's a particularly accurate idea, but being

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Speaker 1: loved at the idea that British troops had been drawn

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Speaker 1: from the cities of Ing, from the industrial cities and

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Speaker 1: the slums of London, and so they were smaller and

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Speaker 1: less fit and less healthy, whereas the Australian men had

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Speaker 1: all come from the bush and played sport and spent

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Speaker 1: their whole time in the sunshine. So therefore they was taller, stronger,

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Speaker 1: fitter than their English counterparts. And I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: actually true. I don't think the evidence suggests that is

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Speaker 1: the case, but it was something that stuck with being

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Speaker 1: for a long time and illustrates this idea that he

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Speaker 1: just basically was in love with this concept of Australian manhood.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he just was absolutely enamored with this idea

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Speaker 1: of the strong, tough Australian bushmen.

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Speaker 2: Ah. And so were people able to read what he

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Speaker 2: was writing, you know, weeks and months later or you know,

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Speaker 2: was this history compiled and not read until long after

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Speaker 2: these events?

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Speaker 1: No, it was read, not quite live. It took a while.

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Speaker 1: It took several weeks for the Bean's first correspondences to

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Speaker 1: be published in Australian newspapers. So he was writing articles,

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Speaker 1: the most famous of which was the description of the

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Speaker 1: landing at Anzac and being to share very early on

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Speaker 1: the morning of the landing at Gallipoli on the twenty

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Speaker 1: fifth of April nineteen fifteen. But it wasn't until May,

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Speaker 1: I think about mid May that his dispatches were published

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Speaker 1: in Australian newspapers. So it wasn't quite live reporting, but

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Speaker 1: it was certainly timely reporting. There was a delay of

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Speaker 1: a few weeks between the events themselves and Bean's reporting

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Speaker 1: of them appearing in Australian newspapers and.

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Speaker 2: Tell us about some of his descriptions. What was he

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Speaker 2: sort of best known for? Was what sort of writing

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Speaker 2: was he best known for.

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Speaker 3: It's a good question.

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Speaker 1: As a writer myself, I'm always interested in Bean's style

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Speaker 1: and the descriptions that he wrote.

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Speaker 3: He was a very dry writer.

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Speaker 1: He did not, as he said, he did not sort

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Speaker 1: of fall into that technique of colorful prose. He was

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Speaker 1: probably a bit too dry. I think he was very descriptive.

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Speaker 1: He'd get very bogged down on detail. He actually copped

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Speaker 1: criticism during the war for being too dry with his dispatches.

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Speaker 1: Where the British correspondents were writing about daring charges and

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Speaker 1: our brave heroes, Bean was reporting quite quite a bit

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Speaker 1: more succinctly, and he was accused of being a bit

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Speaker 1: of a dry writer. And I think that's a fair

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Speaker 1: accusation when you read his writings. Now there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of Bean's work that you can now read, and most

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Speaker 1: scholars of the First World War being just about every day,

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Speaker 1: it is pretty dry. And in some of his later works,

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Speaker 1: the Official Histories, for example, he gets very bogged down

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Speaker 1: in detail. But that's a great resource for us now,

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Speaker 1: if you can get through the dry writing style, it's

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Speaker 1: a great resource because.

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Speaker 3: He talked about just about everything.

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Speaker 1: He talked about training, he talked about food, he talked

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Speaker 1: about what the men were wearing, and he was a

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Speaker 1: great observer of what the men were doing in a

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Speaker 1: fairly detached manner, in a fairly sort of observing from

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Speaker 1: above kind of way. He would talk about what the

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Speaker 1: men were doing. But there's absolutely no doubt that he

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Speaker 1: had a great admiration for Anzac soldiers and that comes

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Speaker 1: through in just about everything that he wrote.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so all these reports that he was writing day

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Speaker 2: to day and that were being published not live but

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Speaker 2: almost live during the war, where they then compile after

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Speaker 2: the war to become the sort of official history of

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Speaker 2: our war.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well that's an interesting question. The answer, the simple

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Speaker 1: answer is no, it didn't quite work like that. But

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Speaker 1: so he was writing dispatches for newspapers. Basically he was

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Speaker 1: keeping people updated with what was happening on the battlefield

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Speaker 1: and what would then happen is he then after the war,

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Speaker 1: he was then appointed to write the official history. So

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Speaker 1: that was a brand new project that started from scratch

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Speaker 1: and no doubt he referred a lot to his diaries.

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Speaker 1: For example, he kept very detailed diaries during his time

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Speaker 1: at Gallipoli and on the Western Front, and so he

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Speaker 1: referred to those. But the dispatches that he wrote during

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Speaker 1: the war are quite a separate resource from the incredible

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Speaker 1: amount of research and work that he did after the

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Speaker 1: war in compiling official histories.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Now, obviously you've been most interested in his

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Speaker 2: experiences at Crispia during the battle. Can you tell us

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Speaker 2: about that and the profound effect that it had on him?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, So a little bit more broadly, I've always been

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Speaker 1: fast by Charles Bean, and from my earliest days as

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Speaker 1: a teenager, when I was first studying the First World War,

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Speaker 1: I was reading Bean's Official History. So I've always had

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Speaker 1: a soft spot for Bean, and it depending on what

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Speaker 1: I'm currently working on, depends on which part of Bean's

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Speaker 1: histories that I'm delving into. So he did a lot

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Speaker 1: of great work on the Western Front as well as

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Speaker 1: he's reporting on Gallipoli. But I really think his first

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Speaker 1: two volumes of the Official History, where he broke down

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Speaker 1: the Anzac campaign at Gallipoli in huge detail, I think

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Speaker 1: these are absolutely some of his best work, and I've

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Speaker 1: been digging into those a lot lately because of the

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Speaker 1: new book that's coming out about the Battle of Crithia

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Speaker 1: at Gallipoli. And I know we talked about Crithia several

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Speaker 1: episodes ago gen when we talked about General James McKay,

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Speaker 1: we talked all about the Battle of Critia. But it

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Speaker 1: was a battle that Charles Bean was very heavily involved

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Speaker 1: in and reported from right from the front line. And

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Speaker 1: the quick summary of that battle is Australian troops and

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Speaker 1: New Zealand troops were sent from the Anzac sector down

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Speaker 1: to the British sector at Cape Hellez only a couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks after the landing at Gallipoli, and on the

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Speaker 1: eighth of May nineteen fifteen, fought this huge battle at

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Speaker 1: Crithia where they lost about fifty percent of their men,

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Speaker 1: so a couple of thousand men were killed or wounded

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Speaker 1: in that action. So a huge action for the ANZACs,

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Speaker 1: but one that's really slipped through the cracks as far

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Speaker 1: as Australians and New Zealanders are concerned, and we don't

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Speaker 1: really remember.

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Speaker 3: It as part of the Gallipoli story.

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Speaker 1: So I've really enjoyed delving into Bean's accounts of Crithia

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Speaker 1: to write my new book about that battle, and it's

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Speaker 1: really fascinating. Bean was there with the troops. He was

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Speaker 1: in the front line. He didn't have to be in

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Speaker 1: the front line. He could have easily just been in

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Speaker 1: the general area and then interviewed people after the attack,

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Speaker 1: but he wanted to see it from the front line,

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Speaker 1: and so he actually put himself in a lot of danger.

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Speaker 1: There were several occasions where Bean was in danger of

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Speaker 1: being killed. He was advancing with the front line troops

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Speaker 1: as they went forward in one of the deadliest battles

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Speaker 1: Australians would fight in at Gallipoli. And it's not just

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Speaker 1: his own accounts. We have accounts from soldiers describing how

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Speaker 1: they saw Bean on the battlefield and how in or

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Speaker 1: they were of him and his reckless bravery during that advance.

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Speaker 1: So Bean later said that the battlefield at Cristia was

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Speaker 1: the battlefield he knew amongst the best of the war

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Speaker 1: because he just spent so much time there. And in fact,

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Speaker 1: during this terrible fighting, when Australians were being killed or wounded,

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Speaker 1: Bean was not only reporting on it, but he was

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Speaker 1: active in the whole thing. He dragged a wounded man

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Speaker 1: to safety, for which he was recommended for Bravery Award.

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Speaker 1: He didn't get the Bravery award because he was actually

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Speaker 1: a civilian who was an honorary captain in the army,

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Speaker 1: so he wasn't eligible for a bravery award. But he

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Speaker 1: was very nearly killed several times. A soldier described watching

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Speaker 1: Bean advancing and watching him suddenly turn his head as

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Speaker 1: a bullet flew past his ear. He helped Colonel MacKaye

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Speaker 1: that we mentioned in the previous episode. In the former episode,

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Speaker 1: James mckaye, he assisted Mackay in the front line when

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Speaker 1: MacKaye was wounded. He ran messages backwards and forwards, and

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Speaker 1: of course we should remember Jen throughout this he was

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Speaker 1: completely unarmed because he was a correspondent. The only thing

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Speaker 1: he had with him was a notebook and a pencil.

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Speaker 1: So it was really extraordinary how actively he participated in

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Speaker 1: this battle at Cristia, simply because he felt it was

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Speaker 1: the right thing to do. And as soon as the

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Speaker 1: battle was over a week or two later, he actually

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Speaker 1: went back to the battlefield while it was still under

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Speaker 1: fire from the Turks. They were getting long rage fire

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Speaker 1: and he and another officer walked to the ground to

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Speaker 1: try and make a little bit more sense of what

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Speaker 1: had been going on. So he certainly can't be faulted

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Speaker 1: for his bravery. He was in the thick of the

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Speaker 1: action and it's stuck with him. I can tell from

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Speaker 1: reading about his experiences at Crithia that it was an

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Speaker 1: experience that stuck with him for the rest of his life.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back soon to find out what happened after

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Speaker 2: the battle, so stay with us and are there any

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Speaker 2: other sort of standout points for you from his time

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Speaker 2: at Gallipoli?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think there was a couple of

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Speaker 1: very notable points at the start of the August offensive.

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Speaker 1: I think on about the sixth of August, he got

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Speaker 1: shot in the leg while he was at Gylipoly, which

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Speaker 1: was no doubt a notable experience for him. So he

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Speaker 1: was just working near his dugout and a bullet that

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Speaker 1: had been fired from the front line came flying over

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Speaker 1: the ridge and struck him in the leg, which is

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Speaker 1: a pretty That was actually a pretty common injury at Gallipoli,

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Speaker 1: that not being directly shot but hit by fire that

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Speaker 1: had come from the front line. Because it was just

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Speaker 1: such a small area they were fighting in at Gallipoli,

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Speaker 1: and Bean was very badly wounded for several weeks and

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Speaker 1: eventually hobbled back to the front line.

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Speaker 3: He refused to be evacuated.

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Speaker 1: He was just treated in his dugout at Gallipoli, so

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Speaker 1: he stayed close to the action, and then a couple

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Speaker 1: of weeks later he was able to with a help

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Speaker 1: a walking stick, sort of hobble back to the front

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Speaker 1: line and report on what was going on. But incidentally,

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Speaker 1: that bullet that hit him at Gallipoli was still in

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Speaker 1: his leg when he died. So yeah, so quite an

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Speaker 1: amazing story. And so he Yeah, so, as I said,

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Speaker 1: he was certainly in the thick of the action for

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Speaker 1: that whole time, and he gained an interesting perspective on

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Speaker 1: the ANZACs, which I think I think is really important

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Speaker 1: in our collective remembrance today, because how can I put this,

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Speaker 1: It seems fairly natural to us that we would look

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Speaker 1: back on the original ANZACs and Gallipoli and the First

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Speaker 1: World War with these feelings of admiration and huge respect.

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Speaker 1: And we remember Anzac Day and we commemorate the bravery

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Speaker 1: of these men. But that wasn't a given that we

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Speaker 1: would look at them that way. I mean, we certainly

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Speaker 1: don't do that for the Battle of Waterloo, we don't

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Speaker 1: do it for some other actions that Australians have been

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Speaker 1: involved in. And I think a huge reason for the

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Speaker 1: fact that we do that for the First World War

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Speaker 1: was Charles Bean. Was he really developed this idea at

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Speaker 1: Gallipoli of the just the bravery and the courage and

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Speaker 1: the esteem we should hold these soldiers in. And I

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Speaker 1: think that's why we call him the father of the

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Speaker 1: Anzac legend, because he developed these ideas at Gallipoli and

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Speaker 1: promoted them when he got back to Australia. So I

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Speaker 1: think that's why Gallipoli was so important in the story

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Speaker 1: of Charles being and important for all of us in

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Speaker 1: our remembrance of Anzak.

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Speaker 2: Know what about Charles Ben's time on the Western Front

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Speaker 2: and his standout moments.

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Speaker 1: There, Yeah, I mean he did great work on the

401
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Speaker 1: Western Front. The Western Front was a much bigger war

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Speaker 1: than Gallipoli, obviously, you know the scale, the number of

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Speaker 1: battles the Australians fought in, and Charles Bean did great

404
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Speaker 1: reporting on the fighting on the Western Front. I think

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Speaker 1: he always had a soft spot for Gallipoli. I think

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Speaker 1: after the war, and looking at his writings and the

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Speaker 1: official history, it was Gallipoli that really captured his imagination.

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Speaker 1: But that's not to say he didn't do brilliant work

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Speaker 1: on the Western Front as well. So he was there

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Speaker 1: just about every important battle. He wrote a lot about

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Speaker 1: the Battle of Possier in the Somme, Australia's most deadly

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Speaker 1: conflict in our military history actually the Battle of Posier,

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Speaker 1: so he spent a lot of time reporting on that.

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Speaker 1: He reported on all the great actions into nineteen seventeen,

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Speaker 1: the disaster at Passiondale when so many Australians were killed,

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Speaker 1: and then on into the great Australian victories of nineteen eighteen,

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Speaker 1: and so he was always there. He was always considered

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Speaker 1: a very Haughton part of the Australian system, the Australian

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Speaker 1: Imperial Force, he was always an essential component of that.

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Speaker 1: He lobbied unsuccessfully against General John Monash when Monash was

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Speaker 1: going to be was suggested to be the commander of

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Speaker 1: the Australian Forces in nineteen eighteen. Bean didn't feel that

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Speaker 1: Monash was the right man for the job, so a

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Speaker 1: bit of controversy there where he lobbied quite hard against

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Speaker 1: him and he wanted General brudnal White to be the

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Speaker 1: commander of the Australian forces, but I think because we

427
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Speaker 1: all know, Monash was absolutely the right choice. So a

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Speaker 1: little bit of a cloud over him there that he

429
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Speaker 1: was on the wrong side of history in lobbying against

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Speaker 1: John Monash, But overall he did a great job reporting

431
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Speaker 1: on the Western Front. Probably the most interesting thing that

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Speaker 1: he missed out on was the Battle of Fromel, the

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Speaker 1: first big battle the Australians were involved in, and listeners

434
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Speaker 1: probably know it quite well, this huge disaster where Australia

435
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Speaker 1: lost five and a half thousand men killed or wounded

436
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Speaker 1: in one day's fighting. Bean wasn't at that battle because

437
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Speaker 1: he didn't realize what a significant event it would be,

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Speaker 1: so he was in another part of the front at

439
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,679
Speaker 1: the time time. And so interestingly, on the eleventh of

440
00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:05,439
Speaker 1: November nineteen eighteen, the day the war ended and the

441
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 1: first day that Bean could move freely around the battlefields

442
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,640
Speaker 1: without risking being killed, he went to Fremel, the one

443
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,680
Speaker 1: battlefield that he hadn't been to, even though the Battle

444
00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 1: of Fremel had taken place in nineteen sixteen, so more

445
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:20,000
Speaker 1: than two years earlier. That was the one place that

446
00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:21,760
Speaker 1: Bean felt he had to be at. So on the

447
00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 1: eleventh of November nineteen eighteen, when all the other Australians

448
00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 1: were drinking beer and celebrating end of the war, Charles

449
00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 1: Bean was at Fremmel, walking that battlefield and eventually and

450
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,760
Speaker 1: working on the notes and the stories that he would

451
00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 1: eventually tell very well in the official history. So, you know,

452
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,560
Speaker 1: a fascinating guy, a very dedicated, hard working man.

453
00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:41,480
Speaker 2: And what did he get up to after the war?

454
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 1: Well, this is a really an interesting chapter of what

455
00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:47,480
Speaker 1: he got up to immediately after the war. Because again,

456
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,439
Speaker 1: as soon as the war ended, Bean had a choice.

457
00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,080
Speaker 1: Now he was the official historian, he was official correspondent.

458
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,280
Speaker 1: He could choose where he wanted to go and what

459
00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 1: he wanted to do. But there was only one place

460
00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,600
Speaker 1: he wanted to go, and that was back to Gallipoli.

461
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 1: And he went to the powers that be and he said,

462
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 1: we still don't know a lot of things about Gallipoli.

463
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:09,160
Speaker 1: There's a lot of mysteries about Gyllipoli because we left

464
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,760
Speaker 1: in such a hurry, you know, and I don't feel

465
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,400
Speaker 1: our story of Gallipoli is complete. So with your permission,

466
00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:17,000
Speaker 1: he said, I would like to assemble a group of

467
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,440
Speaker 1: people which he called the Australian Historical Mission, and they

468
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 1: traveled to Gallipoli in early nineteen nineteen. So they braved

469
00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 1: the freezing conditions at Gallipoli. The war was very freshly over,

470
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:29,600
Speaker 1: the fighting had only ended at the end of nineteen eighteen,

471
00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,240
Speaker 1: and these are in the opening months of nineteen nineteen,

472
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,320
Speaker 1: and he led a historical mission back to Gallipoli to

473
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,959
Speaker 1: answer these mysteries about where the Australians had heard, how

474
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:41,200
Speaker 1: far they'd reached inland on the day of the landing,

475
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 1: what the Turks could see from their positions, the locations

476
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 1: of Turkish guns, and also he walked again the battlefield

477
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 1: of Cristia in some detail, where he'd been effectively four

478
00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 1: years earlier, and walked the battlefield and found the battlefield

479
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 1: still littered with Australian bodies from that attack four years earlier.

480
00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,440
Speaker 1: And as part of this revisit to Gallipoli, he also

481
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:02,480
Speaker 1: collected a lot of relics. He saw a lot of

482
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 1: things which again inspired him and this idea that the

483
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:08,720
Speaker 1: Australian story should be told, and he found relics of

484
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 1: Australian soldiers. He found a huge Australian gun he found.

485
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 1: He collected pine logs from Lone Pine. He collected a

486
00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 1: huge number of relics, and you could already see even

487
00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 1: in early nineteen nineteen, this idea was forming in his

488
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 1: mind that the Australian story had to be told back

489
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 1: in Australia, that it was so heroic and so important

490
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 1: that they had to find a way of telling this story.

491
00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,440
Speaker 1: And I think as he walked around in the snowy

492
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 1: whether at Gallipoli in nineteen nineteen, that was where the

493
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 1: seed of the idea for the Australian War Memorial really

494
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,320
Speaker 1: really blossomed as he did that. And incidentally, if you

495
00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 1: want to read one of the greatest Gallipoli accounts you

496
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,200
Speaker 1: ever will read, read Charles Bean's book about his time

497
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,960
Speaker 1: walking the ground at Glipoli after the war, which he

498
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,040
Speaker 1: published a book called Gallipoli Mission, and that's an absolutely

499
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 1: fascinating account of the Glippoli Campaign. So I'd strongly recommend

500
00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:58,719
Speaker 1: that to anyone.

501
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,040
Speaker 2: Okay, So, with Charles been heavily involved in founding the.

502
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 3: War Memorial almost completely. It was his idea.

503
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,199
Speaker 1: He wanted a museum at first, and his philosophy was

504
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: that this is a story too great for people who

505
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 1: hadn't been involved in it to understand, and he just said,

506
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: we will never the people at home will never understand

507
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,720
Speaker 1: what it meant to charge the trenches at Lone Pine,

508
00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 1: or to fight across that desolate plane at Crithia, or

509
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 1: to live through the mud of Passiondale, or the hell

510
00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 1: of the bombardment at Posier, or indeed the great victories

511
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 1: that Australia spearheaded in nineteen eighteen. And he just felt

512
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: it was a story to too grand and too large

513
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 1: for people who hadn't lived through it to understand. So

514
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:40,400
Speaker 1: he said, we need a museum and we can put

515
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,040
Speaker 1: these relics in there. We can tell the story of

516
00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 1: the Australians. And when he came home, well, firstly, he

517
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,520
Speaker 1: was also working as the official historian, so he was

518
00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 1: working on writing and editing the Great Australian Official History

519
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 1: of the War, the twelve volumes that would tell the

520
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: story of the war. But he was also developing this

521
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: idea of the bringing together of relics, the tell of stories,

522
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 1: and he envisaged a great institution where all of this

523
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 1: would come together, And of course it wasn't until nineteen

524
00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 1: forty one we saw that vision come through to fruition,

525
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 1: but that was the Australian War Morale in Canberra. So

526
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,679
Speaker 1: Bean was the founder of the War Moral and the

527
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 1: architect of a lot of these concepts of remembrance that

528
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 1: we now see in the war oril today.

529
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 2: It's incredible. Now, what do we know about the rest

530
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 2: of his life.

531
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: Well, his great achievement was the Official History. I think

532
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 1: that's what we should most remember him for. His correspondences

533
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: during the war were very important, but I think that

534
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,000
Speaker 1: his legacy is the Official History, and I think if

535
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:37,760
Speaker 1: he was here now he would agree with that as well.

536
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: That he wrote the first two volumes about Anzac. Those

537
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 1: are the first two things he did. So he set

538
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: himself up in Tangradong Homestead just outside Canberra and for

539
00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,359
Speaker 1: five years or so worked on the official histories there.

540
00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,639
Speaker 1: He had a few health problems and it was a

541
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 1: bit too cool in Canberra for him, so he moved

542
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 1: to Sydney then and finished his work there. But he wrote,

543
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: he wrote the volumes dealt with Australia in Gallipoli and

544
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: the Western Front, So those six volumes of the Official History,

545
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,240
Speaker 1: and then he edited the other six volumes that make

546
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,679
Speaker 1: up the official history, so he was instrumental in that,

547
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 1: by far the best account if you want to understand

548
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: exactly what Australia did on the Western Front and in Gallipoli.

549
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 1: The six volumes of Charles Bean's Official History are the

550
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,639
Speaker 1: absolute go to. A little bit dry in the writing.

551
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 1: The books are big and cumbersome and quite expensive to

552
00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: buy these days, but there's online versions. The Australian War

553
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: Oril has them online. It's the essential resource. When I

554
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,960
Speaker 1: was writing my recent Gallipoli book, that was the number

555
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: one resource I would go to as my starting point

556
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 1: for any information. So that's his great legacy, but also,

557
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:41,480
Speaker 1: of course the Australian Warmril.

558
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,879
Speaker 3: These are the things he should be remembered for. The

559
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 3: Australian War morals evolving.

560
00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 1: It's a different place from the one that being envisaged

561
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,959
Speaker 1: when it opened in nineteen forty one, but it's his

562
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,520
Speaker 1: vision and his legacy that we have the War Memorial.

563
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: And after that he worked in a number of committees.

564
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: He was a very good public serve and he wrote

565
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 1: many more books. He turned down the opportunity of a

566
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: knighthood on several occasions when it was offered to him.

567
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 2: Really yeah, absolutely, so very humble man.

568
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,560
Speaker 1: Well he was a very humble man, he said again

569
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 1: a little bit condescendingly, but he said, I don't want

570
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: missus Bean to have to go down to the butcher

571
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,639
Speaker 1: and be referred to as lady being. So you know,

572
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: he was a very humble man. And yeah, and he

573
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 1: lived out his years in, as I said, a house

574
00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: in Lynnfield named Clifton, after his school in England, and

575
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: then one up on Colleri Plado which is still there,

576
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,439
Speaker 1: the house that he lived in. And then later in

577
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: his life, when he was in his eighties, he suffered

578
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 1: from ill health and dementia and died in nineteen sixty

579
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,679
Speaker 1: eight in Concord Repatriation Hospital, no doubt, surrounded by so

580
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 1: many of the ANZACs that he'd written so much about. So,

581
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 1: you know, an interesting man, as I said, a man

582
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: of his time. I think he wouldn't fit in well

583
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,919
Speaker 1: in modern Australian society, but a really important man, the

584
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: father of the Anzac legend, the founder of the warm boil,

585
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: and really a great Australian who told a great Australian story.

586
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,639
Speaker 2: Episode really follows on from the earlier chat that we

587
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 2: had about Crithia so if anyone wants to go back

588
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 2: and listen to that episode, it was on May seventh.

589
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 2: So your book is called Critia. Where and when can

590
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:12,640
Speaker 2: people get hold of a copy Matt.

591
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: It's out at the end of July and available where

592
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: you get books Australia wide.

593
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 2: Brilliant. Now it's a while since we've had a chat

594
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 2: about your tours, Matt. So, Matt McLaughlin battlefield tours. Can

595
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 2: do you talk about Crithia on any of the tours?

596
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:25,640
Speaker 3: Yeah?

597
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: Absolutely, it's interesting, Jen, Thank you for bringing it up,

598
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: because I'm doing I mean, we do battlefield tours all

599
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: over Gallipoli in the Western Front and Vietnam and everywhere

600
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:36,160
Speaker 1: you want to go. But I personally only lead one

601
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: tour a year, and that's coming up in May twenty

602
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: twenty five, which is to Gallipoli for the first time.

603
00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 1: So it's called the Matt McLaughlin Signature Tour, and so

604
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: for the first time I will be leading that tour

605
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: to Gallipoli. Normally we go to France and tell the

606
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 1: story of the Western Front, but this time I'm going

607
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: to Gallipoli and we're going to spend a lot of

608
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 1: time walking the battlefields. Also in the company of Peter Hart,

609
00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: a historian that many people will know, an expertlipopoly historian.

610
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 1: He's going to come with me and a key part

611
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: of that will be telling the story of the Battle

612
00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: of Crithia, because working on this book has just revealed

613
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,440
Speaker 1: how little people know about such an important action. So

614
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: I can't wait in May twenty twenty five to get

615
00:29:13,640 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: over there with a group of people that want to

616
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: come with me, and we're going to walk the ground

617
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: at Callipoli and spend a week exploring the whole story.

618
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,720
Speaker 3: But Crithia will be a key part of that time

619
00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 3: on the battlefield.

620
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 2: Amazing, great timing. Well, thanks for sharing the story with

621
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 2: us today. Matt really appreciate it.

622
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 3: It's always great to talk to you. Jen.

623
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 2: Thank you, thanks for listening. This has been in Black

624
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 2: and White, a podcast about some of Australia's forgotten characters,

625
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 2: written and hosted by me Jen Kelly, edited by Phoebe Zukowski,

626
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 2: and produced by John ty Burton. You can find all

627
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 2: the stories and photos associated with our episodes at Heroldsun

628
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:56,880
Speaker 2: dot com dot au slash. I'd be aw if you've

629
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 2: enjoyed this podcast. We'd love you to leave a five

630
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 2: star on Apple Podcasts. Even better, leave a review. It's

631
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,400
Speaker 2: one simple way you can help us get the word

632
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 2: out to more listeners. Any comments or questions please email

633
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 2: me at in black and white at Heraldsun dot com

634
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 2: dot au. Any clarifications or updates will appear in the

635
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 2: show notes for each episode, and to get notified when

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