1 00:00:01,639 --> 00:00:04,040 Speaker 1: Gooday, Welcome to the show. This is Better Than Yesterday. 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 2: Useful tools and useful conversations to help make your day 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 2: today better than it was yesterday. 4 00:00:10,480 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: Every episode, every week. 5 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,000 Speaker 2: Since twenty and thirteen. My name's Osha Ginsburg. Thank you 6 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 2: so much for being here. If you've never listened before, 7 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 2: thanks being a part of the show. I am an author, 8 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 2: I'm a best selling author. I'm a television recovering TV 9 00:00:26,680 --> 00:00:29,360 Speaker 2: host this summer podcaster. 10 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: I'm a dad, I'm a stepdad, and. 11 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 2: I've been lucky here in Australia to have worked jobs 12 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,520 Speaker 2: in the public eye for some time now. I started 13 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 2: broadcasting at nineteen ninety four, and so when I meet 14 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 2: people people that I have not met before, more often 15 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:51,520 Speaker 2: than not, there's a vague hint of recognition that I 16 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 2: am a familiar person. It's a very long way from 17 00:00:55,720 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 2: when I was on shows like Australian Idol and stuff 18 00:00:57,760 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: like that, when people were literally grabbing me by the 19 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 2: shoulders and screaming my name in my face whenever I 20 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 2: walked out of my apartment. 21 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: It's not like that anymore. 22 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 2: It's more of a kind of like, you're not a 23 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 2: stranger to me, but I don't quite know why, and 24 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 2: I'm always incredibly grateful for that, because there's this pre 25 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 2: installed licebreaker between us. Okay, that I'm somewhat recognizable and 26 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:24,920 Speaker 2: therefore not a total stranger, and that's a nice thing 27 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 2: to interact with people around. But once we get past 28 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:31,920 Speaker 2: the initial joy of greeting and meeting and figuring each 29 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 2: other out and what are we doing here? Oh, I'm 30 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,800 Speaker 2: here too, any we are, I'm kind of sometimes I'm 31 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:41,400 Speaker 2: fascinated by what people think I'm into or what I believe. 32 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 2: And it's not their fault because they've got so little 33 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 2: going They've got this tiny sample size of the only 34 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 2: times they've seen me has been when I'm usually on 35 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,880 Speaker 2: the Telly, and even then that's usually less than a 36 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 2: minute at a time. They're filling in the blanks based 37 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:01,880 Speaker 2: on whatever information they have about me. 38 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: So if, for. 39 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 2: Example, they've only ever seen me on Q and A, 40 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:11,600 Speaker 2: they would think I'm a screaming lefty. If they don't 41 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,920 Speaker 2: ever see me on a show like The Bachelor, depending 42 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 2: on your point of view, well, I've had people accuse 43 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 2: me of being a horrible human being who's committed to 44 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 2: the doubtful of women, and that's not true, but that's 45 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 2: what they choose to believe in. 46 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: That's you know, It's okay. 47 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 2: If you only knew me as the voice of bond 48 00:02:33,000 --> 00:02:35,400 Speaker 2: I Rescue, you might think I just hang around the 49 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,760 Speaker 2: beach all day just commentating on what I see. 50 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: Now I'm some of those things. 51 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 2: That I'm not all of those things, and sometimes I'm 52 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 2: not anywhere near any of those things in the case 53 00:02:49,320 --> 00:02:54,120 Speaker 2: of Batch and my pods, because no person is just 54 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 2: one thing. 55 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,280 Speaker 1: None of us are. There's so much more to all 56 00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:57,639 Speaker 1: of us. 57 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 2: Do you have the morning? My friend Jess, he's this 58 00:03:01,840 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 2: incredible guy. He's good enough to be easily good enough 59 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 2: to have been a professional surfer, but just wasn't. 60 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: It was more into the art. 61 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:12,960 Speaker 2: Of surfing than the competition of surfing, I guess, and 62 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 2: he ended up working on the pro tour instead of competing. 63 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: He could have, but he didn't. It's amazing good. 64 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:20,960 Speaker 2: I've known Jesse for a very long time and he 65 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:22,920 Speaker 2: sent me a photo from over twenty years ago and 66 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 2: this is the very peak of Australian idol, the peak 67 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,399 Speaker 2: of Channel V when if you'd only seen me through 68 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 2: my work, you might think he's his blonde haired music 69 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 2: guy with a smile that says trouble. I mean, I 70 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 2: remember at the time I did an ad campaign and 71 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 2: the marketing people from the company sat me down and 72 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:45,680 Speaker 2: they showed me this research, and they showed me in 73 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 2: the in the public eye, there was this perception at 74 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 2: the time, late two thousand and three, early two thousand 75 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 2: and four that I was. 76 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 1: An incredibly cool person. 77 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: There was a tick box, you know, those people was 78 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 2: off the chart and that you know, Okay, I'll take 79 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: that maybe twenty years ago, yes, But in the photograph 80 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 2: that Jesse sent me, there's a far fuller picture of 81 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 2: a real person. 82 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: That I am. Pardon the pardon or not. 83 00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 2: Because we can be all the things that others may 84 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 2: recognize us for, whether that be our friends, what they 85 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 2: recognize in us, or our family, or the people at 86 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: school drop off or pickup, or the people in your 87 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 2: football team, or the people or work, and you can 88 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 2: be everything. 89 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 1: Else that those people don't see. 90 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 2: And this was really evident to me. The other day 91 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 2: I was listening to Josh Zepps's podcast Uncomfortable Conversations, which 92 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 2: I though really thoroughly recommend, not just because Josh is 93 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:39,240 Speaker 2: my friend, but I think it's one of the most 94 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 2: important podcasts in Australia, and on Josh's podcast, his guest 95 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 2: was the former Prime Minister of Australia, Tony Abbott, and 96 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: it was eye opening because the long form podcast interview 97 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 2: has been lauded as something that is shifting directions and 98 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 2: winning elections. But not every not every politician can sit. 99 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:03,720 Speaker 1: Down for an hour with someone. 100 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:09,040 Speaker 2: All right, may not many politicians can hold that facade 101 00:05:09,080 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 2: for that long. But within five minutes of listening to 102 00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 2: Josh and Tony talk, I found this incredibly uncomfortable feeling 103 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 2: rising within me, a feeling that itched all over, like 104 00:05:23,320 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 2: a bulant bite that I had yet to realize the 105 00:05:26,520 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: full potential of, or a blue bottle steam like. 106 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: Did that blue bottle get me? 107 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 2: Oh? That blue bottle really got Like as it was 108 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:35,240 Speaker 2: building and building, I was just appreciating how painful it 109 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 2: was going to get right because I found myself agreeing 110 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 2: with some of the things that Tony Abbitt was saying. 111 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:48,440 Speaker 1: I found myself in alignment and accepting. 112 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,719 Speaker 2: Of the way that he spoke about some things, not 113 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:57,359 Speaker 2: all of the things, but some of the things. And 114 00:05:57,400 --> 00:05:59,599 Speaker 2: it came to the crunch when he started talking about 115 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:05,679 Speaker 2: his mother who had passed away recently and Tony Abbott, 116 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 2: he breaks down then this conversation, this moment of real emotion. 117 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: I don't believe the man can act all right, And 118 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 2: there it was that sting, that pain just hit me 119 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 2: so hard. That pain that I was feeling, that was 120 00:06:26,720 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 2: empathy and the feeling of humanizing him in a way 121 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 2: that I am embarrassed to admit that I had not done, 122 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 2: because I have lost a mother too. And in that moment, 123 00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:42,640 Speaker 2: listening in the sound of his voice, listening to how 124 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,360 Speaker 2: his voice broke, listening to him being unable to talk 125 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 2: for a moment, there it was the pain that I 126 00:06:51,320 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 2: was feeling, was him becoming a fully formed human instead 127 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,600 Speaker 2: of this cartoon character bad guy in my head. 128 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: Because I remember I was living in Los Angeles. 129 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 2: I was doing a radio show back for Australia and 130 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 2: we would do it live from this studio on Wilship Boulevard. 131 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 2: And so what we would do was we would broadcasting 132 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 2: from the studio and we would hear the commercials that 133 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 2: were being played on our show back in Australia back 134 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:18,840 Speaker 2: down the line, and I would hear the political ads right. 135 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 2: And when he came to power, it was an election. 136 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 1: Actually it was an election campaign. 137 00:07:24,960 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 2: I heard him saying I will stop the boats and 138 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 2: I'm like, five words was all it took to make 139 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 2: up my mind about what kind of human being he 140 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 2: must be to say something like that. And when he 141 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 2: was in power and I moved back to Australia, when 142 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 2: he was in power, I found myself just so incensed 143 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 2: and so riled up by his rhetoric that whenever I 144 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 2: saw him on TV, I'd react with frustration and derision. 145 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 2: I feel horrible in my body. I'd write him off 146 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 2: as rotten to the core, this horrible human being. I 147 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 2: met him once when my friend James Matheson was running 148 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: for the seat of Warringer. He was running for election 149 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 2: in that seat. 150 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:08,840 Speaker 1: He came close, Jimmy, he really did. 151 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 2: I was in the primary school in the quadrangle there 152 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 2: with James handing out how to vote cards to people 153 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 2: on election day and Tony Abbott comes walking across the 154 00:08:19,360 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 2: quadrangle just crotch first, like he had this gait where 155 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:27,680 Speaker 2: he was his hips were so far forward of his 156 00:08:27,720 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 2: ankles and shoulders. 157 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:31,120 Speaker 1: That's just how he strutted. 158 00:08:30,720 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: It, almost like the guy from the Telstra Ad with 159 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 2: the arms and hangling behind him, or that Connor McGregor 160 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 2: kind of walked and he just walked straight up to James, 161 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,680 Speaker 2: gave him a handshake and just was this I perceived 162 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 2: to be just a smarmy person, and I doubled down. 163 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,079 Speaker 2: I was like, oh my god, I've just witnessed everything 164 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:54,480 Speaker 2: I thought was real bad. When he was in power, 165 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 2: I went through an incredibly difficult time. I've written about 166 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,040 Speaker 2: it in my first book. I went through an incredibly 167 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 2: difficult time mental health. I was experiencing horrible anxiety around 168 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 2: climate and it was awful, episodes of psychosis and everything 169 00:09:07,640 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 2: was terrible. I had to find a way that I 170 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: could be okay with the things he was saying because 171 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 2: it was destroying me. And thankfully a couple of years 172 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: earlier and another part of my job, I found a 173 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 2: really interesting way to do that. Because there was a 174 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 2: job I did for a while where I was interviewing 175 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 2: lots of people from movies, right, and you sit down 176 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 2: with the actors, you get four minutes with them. 177 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: You can't get an interview out of that. But that's 178 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: what we did. 179 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 2: And I sat down with Michael Sheen. It was for 180 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,360 Speaker 2: the film Tron Legacy, which I watched the other day 181 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:43,320 Speaker 2: with Wolf. Actually, when I say watched, I mean skipped 182 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:44,320 Speaker 2: over a lot of scary bits. 183 00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: But yeah, we watched the. 184 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,240 Speaker 2: Twelve minute version and Michael Sheen's the batty in that 185 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:53,160 Speaker 2: and he's so good as a batty. And I sat 186 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 2: down and I used that word, I sat down in 187 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 2: the interview, and I like, I adore him. I watched 188 00:09:58,120 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 2: the film Frost Nixon and that changed a lot for 189 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,079 Speaker 2: I was in a transitional point in my career and 190 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 2: I watched that film and I actually, fuck, I know 191 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 2: what I want to do. 192 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:05,560 Speaker 1: This is amazing. 193 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 2: So I sat down and I said, honestly, Michael, that 194 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 2: is like, congratulations as an amazing baddie. What's the key 195 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:15,600 Speaker 2: to being a really good baddy? And it is Michael 196 00:10:15,640 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 2: Shane Frost Nixon, David Frost, you know Hunger Game's voice. 197 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: He says, well, that's the key to. 198 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: Being a good Well, I think the key to being 199 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 2: a good baddy is that even the baddie believes he's 200 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:33,760 Speaker 2: doing the right thing. And that's the line. That's the 201 00:10:33,760 --> 00:10:36,680 Speaker 2: line that really changed things for me, helped me frame 202 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 2: everything very differently. I've talked about that on this podcast before. 203 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: It helped a lot, because while I still believed at 204 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 2: the time he was not a great person, I was 205 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:51,720 Speaker 2: able to at least find a concept of enough humanity 206 00:10:51,720 --> 00:10:54,960 Speaker 2: for him that, look, he believes he's doing the right thing, 207 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 2: even for people like me, who, as far as he's concerned, 208 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:02,000 Speaker 2: just don't understand. So he was at that point way 209 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 2: more empathy for me than I have for him. And 210 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 2: so here I find my and that that helped me. 211 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 2: That helped me get through most of it and allow 212 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 2: myself to let a lot of stuff go. 213 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: So here I find myself. The other day, in my. 214 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,239 Speaker 2: Backyard, I'm cleaning up dog poo and rearranging a trampoline 215 00:11:16,280 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 2: and listening to the first fifteen or twenty minutes of 216 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 2: Josh's podcast and feeling this pain in my body. And 217 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 2: I could hear that while I disagree with more things 218 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 2: that I do not agree with, was that sound right? 219 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 1: Well? 220 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 2: Well, I, well, I agreed with less things than I 221 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 2: disagreed to. 222 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: I can't get the sentence right. And while. 223 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 2: I did agree with some things, and I felt that 224 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 2: I could understand and align with some things that he 225 00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 2: was saying, I still disagreed with most of the things 226 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: he said. But there were some things. I'm like, yeah, 227 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 2: I can see that, and I feel the same way. 228 00:11:47,120 --> 00:11:52,839 Speaker 2: I could also hear thought and consideration and the humanization 229 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:55,559 Speaker 2: of others in his voice. Like I said, he had 230 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 2: more empathy from me than I had for him, And 231 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 2: he went from being a cartoon bad guy to a 232 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 2: full human being with his own thoughts and his own feelings. 233 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 2: And then towards the end of the conversation, Josh starts 234 00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:13,319 Speaker 2: talking about Manus Island refugees sewing their lips shut in 235 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 2: hunger strikes, and Tony insisting that his conscience is clear 236 00:12:18,280 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 2: about policies that he would in place during his government. 237 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 2: And that was even more difficult to hear now because 238 00:12:26,040 --> 00:12:29,080 Speaker 2: I'd heard how resolute and convinced he was that you know, 239 00:12:29,600 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 2: about his ideology and how he got there. I couldn't 240 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 2: just write him off as a cartoon baddie and a 241 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:38,480 Speaker 2: black hat with a cape anymore. I disagreed very much 242 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:42,640 Speaker 2: so with the way that he handled things, yet I 243 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:45,680 Speaker 2: now understood so much where he was coming from. I 244 00:12:45,720 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 2: didn't like his reasoning, but I really understood it. And 245 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 2: Josh continues on talking about climate and listening to that, 246 00:12:55,760 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 2: like just listening to Tony just how completely bereft of 247 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 2: in my view, reality, completely bereft of reality his dance is. 248 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 2: It's more difficult still because I just had that moment 249 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 2: a couple you know, you know, twenty minutes ago, which 250 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:16,360 Speaker 2: happens in movies all the time. Screenwriting scholars talk about it. 251 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 2: Blake Snyder, who wrote this book about it, actually named 252 00:13:18,679 --> 00:13:21,440 Speaker 2: a book about it. About the beats in screenwriting. Usually 253 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 2: happens around about page five or the fifth minute of 254 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 2: any film that you ever watch. It's a moment they 255 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,720 Speaker 2: call it saving the cat. You've got to have that 256 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 2: moment where we see our hero as a person that 257 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 2: we should care about even though they're flawed, that they 258 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 2: have a chance of redemption, they are redeemable with it. 259 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 2: So they make the character do something nice even if 260 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 2: they're not great. So, for example, in the movie Aladdin, 261 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 2: it's a movie about a thief. Okay, the first thing 262 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:46,319 Speaker 2: we see is we see our man Steel although for 263 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 2: bed with his little monkey and he's about to eat it. 264 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 2: And he looks up and he sees a young man, 265 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:53,719 Speaker 2: a young mum and a child, you know, trying to 266 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 2: look for food dumpster diving in you know, a ladden 267 00:13:56,440 --> 00:14:00,440 Speaker 2: land and he gives them some bread. There's an al 268 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 2: Pacino movie. Probably my favorite example is this the Alphacno 269 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,600 Speaker 2: movie See of Love. Right after we see al Pacino 270 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 2: orchestrate this very elaborate sting involving the New York Yankees 271 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: where he gets, you know, a bunch of guys rested 272 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 2: without standing warrants, you know, duped into believing they were 273 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 2: going to meet the New York Yankees. After everyone's arrested 274 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 2: and the paddy wagons is off to the station, a 275 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 2: guy turns up late. All the cops are leaving, and 276 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 2: a guy turns up late with his son and he's. 277 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 1: Go, oh, man, did I make it? 278 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:27,120 Speaker 2: Did I miss it? Did I miss it? Here's my 279 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 2: little boy. I couldn't meet the Yankees without my little boy. 280 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 2: And he goes, what's your name? And he goes da Da, 281 00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 2: Da Da. And he turns around and he you know, 282 00:14:35,320 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 2: this mate in the back of the car just goes, 283 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 2: He's Stolo Stereo or something like that, and he goes, no, sorry, mate, 284 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 2: we're all booked up. I'll catch you next time. The 285 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 2: guy's like, what, I'm here, I'm here, and he just 286 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 2: flashes his badge and says we're all booked up, I'll 287 00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: see you next time, Thank thank you, and he just 288 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 2: gets out of there, and so they arrested. They could 289 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:54,520 Speaker 2: have arrested forty six, but they didn't. They arrested forty 290 00:14:54,520 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 2: five because he was there with his boy. And then 291 00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 2: later in the film al Pacino, he's a horrible man, 292 00:14:58,200 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 2: but because he did this thing, we feel differently about it. 293 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 2: So earlier on the conversation with Tonny, Abbott broke down 294 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 2: talking about his mum. He saved the cat, A switch 295 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 2: flicked inside of me. I still disagree vehemently with the 296 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 2: refugee policy that his government had and the ongoing implications 297 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 2: of that, and the climate policy and the ongoing implications 298 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 2: of that, taking down the emissions trading scheme and things 299 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: like this, and the things that he says. His conscience 300 00:15:26,040 --> 00:15:28,920 Speaker 2: is absolutely clear upon. I very much disagree with that. 301 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 2: But it's hard now because he's not just a cartoon 302 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 2: bad guy and an imaginary person and a black hat 303 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 2: that I can switch off and write off in my 304 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 2: head completely. 305 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: He's a full human. 306 00:15:39,440 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: Being with feelings, a person who loved his father, loved 307 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 2: his mother, a person who grieves. But that's the part 308 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,400 Speaker 2: that actually helps not only fill out this person in 309 00:15:52,440 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 2: a large way, it also makes it a little bit 310 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 2: easier for me to get to the first way that 311 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 2: I used to ill with him, because when I was 312 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 2: angry at him for being a cartoon band got bad guy, 313 00:16:03,960 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 2: that anger and that resentment would just stay with me. 314 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 2: It was in my body. It would stick to me 315 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 2: like dog poo sticks to my vital hair. I've got 316 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,480 Speaker 2: to get in there with the little scissors the well. 317 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:18,920 Speaker 2: To be honest, I don't do it as often because 318 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 2: I don't do a very good job. 319 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: Audrey gets right in there, my wife. 320 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: But after listening to Josh talk with Tony abbit the 321 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 2: other day, things are kind of different for me now. 322 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 2: And I'll tell you how right after this. Thanks for 323 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 2: listening to the show. Now that I've been able to connect, 324 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 2: dare I say with Tony Abbott on. 325 00:16:47,720 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: An emotional level, Yeah, I just said that out loud. 326 00:16:52,160 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 2: The second way of understanding him that he believes he's 327 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 2: doing and has done the right thing, that. 328 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:01,160 Speaker 1: Is a lot easier to get to. 329 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,360 Speaker 2: It's a lot easy to get to that. And then 330 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 2: when I let it go, it's gone. It's not like 331 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 2: when I just couldn't stand him as a big kind 332 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 2: of cartoon bad guy. I can understand that he's a 333 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:18,960 Speaker 2: full human being who truly believes what he's doing, even 334 00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 2: though I don't. He thinks he's doing the right thing, 335 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 2: even people like me and I can accept that. And 336 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:28,280 Speaker 2: then now what can I do from him? I don't 337 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 2: have that resentment, that ickiness stuck inside me. Now again, 338 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,640 Speaker 2: I don't agree with the man, But when I think 339 00:17:33,680 --> 00:17:37,160 Speaker 2: about the things that he and I have in common, well, 340 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:40,240 Speaker 2: you know what, they're probably in the vast majority, like 341 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 2: it or not, he and I are more similar than 342 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:45,960 Speaker 2: we aren't, for God's sake. When he was in power, 343 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 2: he would do hill repeats, which is a bicycle thing 344 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 2: where you just go up and down the same hill 345 00:17:50,359 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 2: again and again and again. 346 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: It's a form of naval training. 347 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,439 Speaker 2: He would do hill repeats with the cycling mates on 348 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 2: the hill near my house. I would see him on 349 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 2: his roadbike all the time. I never got a chance 350 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 2: to ride with him. I'd dare say I wouldn't want it, 351 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 2: because he's looked very fit. Still, i'd have a hard 352 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 2: time keeping up. But he and I both will have 353 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 2: a vast collection of lycra A bicycle shorts if you've 354 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,160 Speaker 2: ever seen there's a TV series based on the Broadway 355 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 2: show that One Man show that Mike Tyson did. There's 356 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 2: a line that writers keep coming back to. I mentioned 357 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 2: it earlier. Nobody is just one thing, and we can 358 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 2: so quickly demonize and dehumanize others, but it is vital 359 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:35,320 Speaker 2: that we remember that they'refore human beings with you know, 360 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 2: all kinds of other things about them. And so it's 361 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 2: taken me a long time to get back to this photograph. 362 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: But this photograph that Jesse sent me. 363 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 2: Twenty something years ago, when I was being told by 364 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 2: some marketing agency that I am as care as research 365 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 2: as concerned, the coolest person in Australia. Well, what I 366 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 2: was doing in this picture. I was at Narrabeen, which 367 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 2: is a very territorial beach in North Sydney on the 368 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 2: Northern Beaches the Insular Peninsula. And I was there for 369 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 2: the Billibon Pro Juniors, which is the highest profile junior 370 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 2: surfing competition in the world. People that win that going 371 00:19:10,960 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 2: to like everyone that is a champion now when they 372 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 2: were kids, and it was peak Idol, peak Channel V. 373 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 2: I'd just been in Hawaii and the North Shore, you know, 374 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 2: hanging out with Jesse and watching the Pipeline Masters. It 375 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 2: was amazing. And here I am sitting at this cafe 376 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:37,239 Speaker 2: and narrawbean with my darkness trucker hat on, wearing a 377 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 2: pair of Aviator sung classes and a travel scrabble board, 378 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 2: inside of the case of which I had a double 379 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 2: sided printed laminated sheet sheet of all the legal two 380 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,720 Speaker 2: and three letter words, as well as one of those 381 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:59,680 Speaker 2: old man kind of magnifying plastic sheety things. So because 382 00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 2: I so small, because there's like a thousand and three 383 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:08,159 Speaker 2: letter words or something, because I am, as well as 384 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 2: all the other things that apparently at the time were true, 385 00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 2: I am also. 386 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:13,959 Speaker 1: A very, very, very nerdy person. 387 00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 2: I was a card carrying member of the Queensland Role 388 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 2: Player Society, and I played more Dungeons and Dragons than 389 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 2: you've had odd Dinners. I'm a really nerdy person, probably 390 00:20:25,240 --> 00:20:31,160 Speaker 2: way too nerdy for my own good. And so when 391 00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 2: I meet people and they, you know, still now that 392 00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:36,720 Speaker 2: you know, they assume things about me or how I 393 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 2: might feel about see about the world, I'm like, you 394 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:43,359 Speaker 2: don't understand, man. I read dystopian science fiction and you know, 395 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 2: strategize connect four games and think about chess, figure out 396 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:56,120 Speaker 2: scrabble words when I look at street signs, and that's 397 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,280 Speaker 2: probably closer to the real human being that I am 398 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,640 Speaker 2: than everything else that you might see me do for work. 399 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:07,479 Speaker 2: And so whatever you're doing this week, there's probably going 400 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 2: to be someone that gives you the shits. It might 401 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 2: not be on Attorney Abbott, you know, stop the boat's 402 00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 2: kind of level, but there's going to be someone that 403 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 2: gives you the shits this week. 404 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,320 Speaker 1: So i'd suggest. 405 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 2: Try to remember at some point that person has in 406 00:21:19,359 --> 00:21:22,439 Speaker 2: the words of Blake Snyder, that person has saved a cat, 407 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 2: all right. 408 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: They have been kind. 409 00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 2: To someone in a way that you will never know. 410 00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 2: They have a favorite food, a favorite person to eat 411 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 2: that food with. They have a favorite TV show, they 412 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,200 Speaker 2: have a favorite song, they have a best friend, a 413 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 2: favorite sport to watch, favorite thing to do when they 414 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 2: have an hour off. They may have vastly different ideological 415 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 2: beliefs from yours, but of all the things that they 416 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 2: love in their life, there's probably something very close to, 417 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 2: if not exactly the same as something that you love 418 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 2: to and that for me, that's the first part. That's 419 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:07,720 Speaker 2: the first step we can take towards not being just 420 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 2: drowned with the ickiness that sticks within us when we 421 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 2: see someone that we you know, rage bait, may get 422 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:21,560 Speaker 2: caught by watching something go past our bones. We're just 423 00:22:21,560 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 2: the gas that someone could even say that shit out loud? 424 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: How dare they are? 425 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 2: And because that's you know, you watch something the last 426 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:31,840 Speaker 2: eight seconds that can ruin your day because you have 427 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 2: this feeling stuck inside you, you can't. 428 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:34,800 Speaker 1: Stop thinking about it. 429 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,919 Speaker 2: So for me, the first step out of that is 430 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 2: trying to think about, well, that person's probably got someone 431 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 2: they love and they loved it by someone and they've 432 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 2: shared a nice cream with a person, or you know, 433 00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 2: the chances are they've they also like you know that 434 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,159 Speaker 2: new album from Fred again which I was listening to 435 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,280 Speaker 2: today and it's rather quite good for me. That's the 436 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 2: first step of releasing that resentment and trying to not 437 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 2: get stuck in that polarizing ideology trap that certain companies 438 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 2: make a lot of money on keeping our attention, and 439 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 2: to also not let that cycle of negative thought ruin 440 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 2: your day. I hope that was helpful to you. I 441 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,879 Speaker 2: hope it was something in a perspective that you find 442 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 2: valuable and if you want, like go go listen to 443 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,360 Speaker 2: that podcast with Josh, and I wonder if I'd. 444 00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: Love to know what you think. 445 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 2: Like I said, I was talking to Audry about it 446 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 2: afterwards that night, it was like, I still disagree with him, 447 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 2: and I still think he made terrible errors, and I 448 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 2: am really not happy about the things that he has 449 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 2: decided to do when chosen on behalf of our country. 450 00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: Well because he. 451 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 2: Had the right too, because he was elected as a 452 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:50,719 Speaker 2: majority of leader. Yet I understand why, and because I 453 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,920 Speaker 2: understand why, it feels a lot I'm a lot freer 454 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 2: to get on with the business of now trying how 455 00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 2: do I make the world better as it is, rather 456 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 2: be upset at a thing that this man has done, 457 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,919 Speaker 2: because he's a full human like you, like me, like 458 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 2: everyone around us. 459 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: Thanks being a part of the show. 460 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 2: If this was useful to you, please send it to 461 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 2: someone like, Share, describe, subscribe, comment wherever you can. 462 00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: Let a mate know about this show. 463 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 2: I'd love to see what you're looking at right now, 464 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 2: whatever you're doing, take a photo, whip out your fine 465 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,520 Speaker 2: take a photo of what you're doing. Like I said 466 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 2: earlier when I was listening to Josh shows in the backyard, 467 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 2: rearranging and trampoline because that's where I listen to my podcast. 468 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,280 Speaker 2: Sandosha email at gmail dot com. I'd love to hear 469 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 2: from you. I'll be back here on Wednesday. Thanks for listening.