WEBVTT - Dr Nick Coatsworth: COVID Mistakes, Big Government & The Future of Australia 0:00:00.080 --> 0:00:02.040 Doctor Nick Coachworth, welcome straight talk mate. 0:00:02.080 --> 0:00:02.840 Oh thank you mate. 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:07.480 You've been pretty vocal lately, or not not lately, forever, 0:00:07.840 --> 0:00:09.520 but lately. Yeah. 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:14.120 Look, mb I've got the opportunity from COVID to have 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:15.920 a bit of a platform, a bit of a voice. 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:21.279 And you know, it was once when I actually learned 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:23.840 how to do my debating and public speaking at school 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:28.720 that I actually became, you know, reasonably good at it. 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:31.000 And I would never claim to be the best doctor 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:34.199 in the world, but you know, my latent talent is 0:00:34.240 --> 0:00:38.640 sort of talking. So with everything that's happening so far 0:00:38.720 --> 0:00:40.920 in the world, and I think what's happening to the 0:00:40.920 --> 0:00:43.400 country as well, what's happening to Australia, I think it's 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:45.440 important that people with something to say get up and 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:45.839 say it. 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:48.240 Well. I think it's also important to Nick that people 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:51.400 with it's called status. And I don't mean that in 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:56.000 sort of any condescending way or the opposite to that 0:00:56.040 --> 0:00:58.920 as a matter of a matter of fact, but people 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:01.920 with status, I think have an obligation to say something 0:01:02.440 --> 0:01:04.800 if they've got an opinion. If they're an opinion, fair enough, 0:01:04.800 --> 0:01:05.960 but if they've got an opinion on something, I think 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:07.960 there's an obligation to say something. Do you do you 0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:09.720 think you fit into that category? And do you would 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:10.679 you agree with that proposition? 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:13.479 Oh, I definitely agree with the proposition. I think there's 0:01:13.480 --> 0:01:17.360 limitations on what people can and can't do, and I 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:20.320 think from my point of view, I'm relatively unconstrained, you know. 0:01:20.360 --> 0:01:24.360 I'm yes, I work with the Nine Network. I've you know, 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:26.960 very fortunate to have that sort of position. I still 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:29.640 work as a doctor. But I think as long as 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:33.800 you keep your opinions within a reasonable discourse or reasonable 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:35.880 left or right of arc, you can have strong opinions 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:36.920 and you should express them. 0:01:37.040 --> 0:01:38.920 So, you know, one of the things you're from my 0:01:38.959 --> 0:01:40.440 point of view at least, that you're best known for 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.959 and is the COVID period. How did you get go 0:01:44.040 --> 0:01:48.240 from being a medical practitioner to being someone that effectively 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:53.520 became the federal government spokespersonally for COVID or during COVID. 0:01:53.200 --> 0:01:55.400 How did that sort of all occur? Yeah? 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:56.960 Well, I mean, some of it's always going to be 0:01:56.960 --> 0:01:58.840 the right place for the right time, But there were 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:01.080 a few key steps in the Korea that got me there. 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:03.360 I think the first one was probably working with doctors 0:02:03.360 --> 0:02:06.400 with our borders, getting a real passion for crisis medicine 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:07.920 and humanitarian aid. 0:02:07.960 --> 0:02:09.520 And maybe you explained that a little bit. I mean, 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:11.240 I've heard of it, but explain a little bit about that. 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:13.720 What does it mean is that like charity not charity work? 0:02:13.760 --> 0:02:15.720 Is that like freebie stuff, like you're doing it you 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:16.239 don't get paid? 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:19.000 Yeah, no, we won't paid for it. And it was 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:22.280 it's a French organization with a very long and deep 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:24.720 history of going into some of the most difficult conflicts 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:27.200 in the world. Where were you pleased, Well, I went 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:29.720 to I went to the Congo. Now there's two congos. 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:32.400 Two congos. There's a Democratic Republic of Congo, which is 0:02:32.440 --> 0:02:35.280 the least democratic, and then there's the Republic of Congo, 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:37.440 which is sort of the old French Congo, the DRC, 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:39.760 which is the one who's playing the moment, the DRC 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.320 is playing footy and has gotten a bowler outbreak, right, 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:45.040 So that's not the one I was in, but we 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:47.560 were just across the river from that. They're both next 0:02:47.600 --> 0:02:49.760 to each other, the old Belgian and the French Congos 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:54.040 from colonial days, so it was post conflict mark, but 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:56.120 it was a long way away. Like if you from 0:02:56.200 --> 0:03:00.120 the capital. Like if you think about Sydney and and 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:05.240 I don't know Burke or wester Dubbo or something like that, 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.760 that's where this was relatively in that country. So there's 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:10.520 nothing there. We're in the middle of the jungle. We're 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:13.520 in a village of thirty thousand people. We're providing the 0:03:13.560 --> 0:03:17.320 only healthcare there the hospital. MSF had built a hospital 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:20.760 there when the need arose ten years ago, and now 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:22.880 we're sitting there going, well, what do we do with 0:03:22.919 --> 0:03:25.840 this hospital? And we ended up being the last group 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:28.519 of MSF doctors. I was the doctor. There was a 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:30.480 nurse or a couple of other people, and we were 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:33.720 the last ones there because the home base in Paris 0:03:33.760 --> 0:03:37.720 said no need here anymore and we need to shut down. 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:39.600 So I'd gone out thinking I was going to be, 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:42.520 you know, save the world. There was a program back 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:45.320 then called er where there was a young doctor called Carter, 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:48.200 and I used to love that program, and he was 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:50.320 out doing the similar sort of thing, and you know, 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:53.000 I got to be honest. There was a little bit 0:03:53.000 --> 0:03:56.800 of you know, glamour raman, a bit of romance about it, 0:03:57.240 --> 0:03:59.760 but the truth was exactly the opposite. We were the 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:02.840 down sizes. We were like the management consultants of MSF, 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:05.400 we needed to close this thing, and so we ended 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.480 up leaving after I'd been there for six months. And 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:12.000 it was a hugely emotional experience, sort of leaving a 0:04:12.040 --> 0:04:15.520 town of thirty thousand people with no healthcare. And I 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:18.599 can remember distinctly going because you know, no plan's going 0:04:18.600 --> 0:04:21.360 in and out. We had to go down via canoe 0:04:21.360 --> 0:04:23.760 and we're leaving on a canoe waving and everybody's in 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:28.440 tears and they know that there's going to be no 0:04:28.760 --> 0:04:29.880 free health care for them. 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:32.800 The day that we leave, is that because they are 0:04:32.839 --> 0:04:35.320 no longer going to get free healthcare or end or 0:04:35.960 --> 0:04:38.280 is because you start to build relationships to them, they 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:40.880 build relationships to you. Like a small community. 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:43.840 Really, yes, small community and only two things driving the economy. 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:46.800 So MSF being there and paying people to work for us. 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:48.920 We had a staff of about thirty and they spend 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:52.799 and they spent yep. And then there's an Italian logging company. 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:55.520 Now this is an important story because the Italian logging 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:58.280 company weren't paying its workers. So we were the only 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:01.839 source of money into this town. And when we leave, 0:05:02.240 --> 0:05:04.520 it's not just healthcare that goes. It's not just friendships 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:08.800 that go. The economy of last place collapses. And I thought, geez, 0:05:09.520 --> 0:05:11.080 you know, for all the romance of this and for 0:05:11.080 --> 0:05:12.719 all the good that we were clearly doing for a 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:16.800 period of time, eventually you've distorted the economy. We've created 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:20.520 a problem. Now. The night that we left, so we 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:22.400 were on the canoe, we were out. There wasn't any 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:26.560 mobile no mobile phones, well, satellite phones. So we go 0:05:26.640 --> 0:05:28.960 down the river and get to the next stop, and 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:31.840 we get a call and the nurse that had worked 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:34.159 for us for longest, and he got the biggest payout 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:36.359 because we're doing French labor laws, right, you've worked with 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:38.320 us for ten years, we'd give your stack of cash 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.479 just like you would hear, like a redundancy payment, like 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:45.279 a redundancy payment. So the coppers find out, the police, 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:47.000 the Congolese police, they find out. 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:47.960 That he got a pay out. 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:50.279 They knew that everybody got to pay out, they knew 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:52.880 that he got the most. They stop him in the street. 0:05:53.839 --> 0:05:57.200 So at the point of a gunpoint, give. 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:59.480 Us your cash, like, here's a robbery. 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:02.280 Here's a robbery. He said no. They shot him, no, 0:06:02.880 --> 0:06:06.040 they shot him dead, dead, Well, he got to the hospital, 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.640 but you know, the thirty staff are not there anymore 0:06:08.640 --> 0:06:12.280 and it's just three three government Congolese staff, no equipment. 0:06:12.320 --> 0:06:14.920 We've taken all the equipment and Jacques died that night 0:06:14.960 --> 0:06:16.880 and we found it out about it the next day. 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:17.800 Why didn't he go with you? 0:06:18.520 --> 0:06:21.360 Well, he was what we call local or national staff. 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:24.520 So you come in with your team with five usually expats. 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:26.280 It's a bit different now with MSF, who used to 0:06:26.320 --> 0:06:29.760 be people from overseas. You come in with your five 0:06:30.720 --> 0:06:34.720 basic teams, a field coordinated doctor, nurse, logistician, and an admin person. 0:06:34.800 --> 0:06:37.200 And that was us. There was core for five person team. 0:06:37.680 --> 0:06:40.800 And then you build your local team around you. So 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:44.680 you employ you employ nurses and doctors from local people, 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:47.680 from the local health system, and you're providing with jobs, 0:06:47.720 --> 0:06:50.720 training and do it. You're building capacity. So there's good 0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:51.200 stuff here. 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:52.360 But you're building a business. 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:54.960 Basically, you're building healthcare. I mean, obviously you're providing it 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:55.840 for free because you're doing. 0:06:55.920 --> 0:06:59.200 It's still revenues, but you are building a business system. 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:02.880 And then that money is going in to the local economy. Yeah, 0:07:02.920 --> 0:07:06.400 and so we managed to successfully collapse the local economy overnight. 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:07.159 Wow. 0:07:07.360 --> 0:07:09.720 So corruption is a big issue, oh, I mean in 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:13.080 those sort of regions, and it's not it's not so 0:07:13.200 --> 0:07:16.080 different corruption anywhere in the world, back where where there's 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:19.120 lots of money and perverse incentives. And you know, we 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:21.280 can talk about a bit of the soft corruption or 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:23.480 hard corruption that goes on in Australia later on, but 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:29.080 this is like hard, brazen corruption on behalf of anyone 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:31.920 with power given to them by the government. And in 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:32.880 this case it was the place. 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:36.880 How old were you at that point, I was twenty seven. 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:39.920 I think what you learn from that, well, I learned. 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:43.440 That the road to hell proverbially is paved with good 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:48.080 intentions no matter you know, you are doing genuine good, 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.600 but in the course of doing that good, you can 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:55.160 create a whole heap of you know, in economic terms, 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:59.920 negative externality is pretty pretty serious negative externality for Jacques 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:02.080 who lost his life because of it, and that just 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:05.160 shocked us. I mean, you can imagine what that did 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:07.840 to our Core five team when we find out about that. 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:09.480 We all knew why, and we all knew it was 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:11.800 related to us and what we've done. But now you know, 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:14.760 now in Africa, this has sort of added just switching 0:08:14.800 --> 0:08:18.000 back to the sort of the romance of it, I suppose, 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:20.560 and it's not like this anymore around the world. But 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:23.800 we couldn't communicate with anyone were it not for a satellite. 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.440 I was sending emails to my current wife who i'd 0:08:26.720 --> 0:08:29.200 split up with as a girlfriend boyfriend at the time, 0:08:29.320 --> 0:08:32.360 and I had to send her. I was sending her 0:08:32.400 --> 0:08:35.640 emails and it would cost me most of my per DM, 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:38.240 which was like ten euros a day just to send 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:42.200 one email of like forty words, So it was hard 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:42.800 to communicate. 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:44.680 Did she realize how much you loved when you're told 0:08:44.679 --> 0:08:44.920 of it? 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:47.280 Ah, she did when I took her to France afterwards 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:48.480 at day's pay. 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:50.200 As a day's pay, I just spent a day's pay 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:51.800 on on a whatty word email to you. 0:08:51.840 --> 0:08:52.880 I still remind her about that. 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:56.760 Yeah, well she'd be watching this, no doubt. So you 0:08:56.800 --> 0:08:59.240 went from there then? What happened? So you come back 0:08:59.240 --> 0:09:00.640 to Australia. What did you do? No? 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:04.160 So at the end of MSF missions, there's always another mission, 0:09:04.240 --> 0:09:06.760 so they said, you know, there's a measles vaccination up 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:10.520 in Chad, Chad. I didn't even know where it was. 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:15.720 For the listeners viewers next to Sudan, Maley, that's sort 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:16.760 of very Subsharan Africa. 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:19.240 Pretty hectic though, very very hectic, and. 0:09:19.240 --> 0:09:22.160 At the time probably one of the bottom three poorest 0:09:22.160 --> 0:09:24.360 places in the world. So we went there and we 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:27.079 had to try and vaccinate. It wasn't just me. There 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:29.319 was a big team there because it was an emergency 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:32.560 that probably forty internationals came in to try and vaccinate 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:34.200 ten thousand kids in three weeks. 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:37.760 Is the objective sort of part of being a doctor 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:41.240 and becoming a doctor back in your own country? I mean, 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:43.600 or just did you feel like you need to give back? 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.280 No, this was something I'd wanted to do for years. 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:47.800 This is something I wanted to do before I was 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:50.880 even a doctor. Yeah, I saw this idea of. 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:52.360 It wasn't a career idea though, it. 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:54.360 Wasn't a career idea, But I mean I stayed with 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:56.840 MSF for a long time afterwards, just not going into 0:09:56.880 --> 0:09:58.840 the field. I went to the field once more and 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:02.640 I went to the Dat region of Sudan. But I 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:05.040 then was on the board of MSF Australia for six 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.040 years and did a lot of the governance work with them, 0:10:07.080 --> 0:10:08.920 and I think we achieved a lot. We took it 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:11.040 from sort of forty million dollars a year to seventy 0:10:11.080 --> 0:10:13.200 million dollars a year in revenue, which was pretty good, 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:18.199 and had a lot of interactions with the global governance 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.040 of it. So for me, no, it wasn't a career, 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:23.040 but it was a pretty important part of my life 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:24.920 and I kind of knew that I'd wanted to do that. 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:29.280 It was a service humanitarian thing. I I'd seen a 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:32.360 thing like a profile of MSF in my French textbook 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:35.079 when I was in year ten, and that's what planted 0:10:35.120 --> 0:10:37.319 the seed. Like I was looking at that, going, oh, 0:10:37.720 --> 0:10:40.040 that sounds like something I'd like to do. You combine 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:43.439 that with, you know, just the sort of global view 0:10:43.480 --> 0:10:46.599 that my parents had instilled in me, and it was 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:47.480 always going to happen. 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:49.760 But when I see something like that, and if I'm 0:10:49.760 --> 0:10:54.120 thinking then about I'm the Prime Minister and who can 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:59.040 I trust to give advice and to talk to Australian 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:02.600 people about what COVID may or may not be going 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:04.800 to do, And you know, it was a big drama here, 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:09.079 I'm thinking to myself in terms of profile. Must be 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:12.960 a practitioner, doctor, must be able to stand on our 0:11:12.960 --> 0:11:15.760 own two feet they actually have a conversation. But having 0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:18.640 that background would definitely go to the top of the 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:21.040 list for me, you know, like you know, someone's used 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:27.359 to used to dealing with potentially epidemics, being in the field, measles, epidemics, 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:31.040 that sort of immediately qualifies you. Not I mean we 0:11:31.080 --> 0:11:32.000 put you up with there in the list. 0:11:32.559 --> 0:11:34.560 It put me on the pathway. And of course, you 0:11:34.600 --> 0:11:37.800 know Prime Minister Morrison and Greg Hunting and Minister hunt 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:39.720 didn't know any of that about my background when they 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:42.800 appointed me. I had actually been part of the National 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:45.360 Critical Care and Trauma Response Center, which is a disaster 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:49.000 response out of Darwin. So that was this is before COVID. Yeah, 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:51.960 this before COVID. So between MSF and COVID, I'm up 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:53.960 in Darwen. My wife and I had two of our 0:11:54.160 --> 0:11:56.520 three kids up there, and there was a policy called 0:11:56.520 --> 0:11:59.640 developing the North at the time, and we developed the North. 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:01.440 We had two kids, we built a house, we did 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:04.000 all sorts of defty contributed. Yeah, four years up there, 0:12:04.040 --> 0:12:06.120 and I remember clearly, you know, it was a great time. 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:10.320 Beck was heavily pregnant with our third and flying in 0:12:10.360 --> 0:12:13.640 and doing remote consultations she's a doctor as well out 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:17.000 in the back community. It was a good time in 0:12:17.000 --> 0:12:20.439 our lives, but for me it was disaster response, and 0:12:20.720 --> 0:12:24.160 the architecture of disaster response in Australia is very much 0:12:24.200 --> 0:12:28.840 linked in with Foreign Affairs, Health Department, those names that 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:33.679 we never knew before but known now chose Chief Health Officers, HPPC, 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:37.440 the Protection Committee. This was something that I'd lived and 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:41.280 breathed for four years. So when we went from Darwin 0:12:41.320 --> 0:12:44.520 to Canberra, I was there working as an infectious disease 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:48.080 doctor for five years. Then COVID hits and I get 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:53.160 this call about, you know, late February twenty twenty from 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:55.440 Professor Paul Kelly, who was one of Brendan Murphy, the 0:12:55.520 --> 0:12:59.200 Chief Medical Officers deputies, and he said, listen, this is real. 0:12:59.280 --> 0:12:59.960 Did you know him ready? 0:13:00.240 --> 0:13:04.440 I did throw all this Darwin stuff. So he goes, 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:07.560 this is real. We'd like you to come. We've already 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:09.720 spoken to your boss. She's released you for three months. 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.240 Come across from Camberra Hospital and come and work with 0:13:13.320 --> 0:13:14.760 us as one of Brendan's deputies. 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:16.760 I mean obviously remember well, but I remember talking to 0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:19.880 David Heslot, Oh yeah, and he was telling me about 0:13:19.920 --> 0:13:23.679 the powers of the Surgeon General and in Australia, and 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.920 also we talk about Morrison and this whole process of 0:13:28.400 --> 0:13:32.640 basically locking to join down and David who's at the 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:35.120 University New South Wales in Department of Medicine, one of 0:13:35.160 --> 0:13:39.880 those faculties. And so around that period it seemed to 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:44.920 me that Morrison was creating a cohort of people around 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.160 him like that that he could rely upon in terms 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:50.800 of making the calls on all of this. You know, so, 0:13:51.360 --> 0:13:54.199 would you consider yourself as at that point in February 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:56.280 when you first got the call, as someone who was 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:01.560 enrolled or enlisted that's called by the Prime Minister. 0:14:01.800 --> 0:14:03.840 Yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean really it was 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:07.680 Brendan who was advising the Prime Minister on that, and look, 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:09.680 I wouldn't have couched in those terms at the time. 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:12.600 I simply said yes, But it was the first time 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.240 that i'd stopped. And I mean usually when an opportunity 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:17.240 like that comes in front of my lap, i'd say 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:19.640 yes straight away. But as a sense of duty, as 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:23.320 a sense of duty as because in these sort of 0:14:23.360 --> 0:14:26.320 careers where you sort of you know, start to leap 0:14:26.360 --> 0:14:29.160 frog and and go higher and higher, and higher. It's 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.600 often because you say yes to the opportunity, it's not 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:37.440 necessarily and you say yes quickly. But on this occasion, 0:14:38.800 --> 0:14:40.400 you know, I put down the phone. I said, Paul, 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:42.280 I'm on a ward round. I'm going to call you back. 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:44.200 And I called my wife straight away and said, listen, 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.760 this is this is going to be big. Am I 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:48.680 in the right frame of mind to do it? And 0:14:48.960 --> 0:14:51.040 you asked her that, yeah? I asked her that. Yeah, 0:14:51.280 --> 0:14:53.720 I was asking myself that question, but she'd obviously not. 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.360 I'd gone through a bit of a troubling time in 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:58.720 my mental health in the in the previous six months, 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:02.160 and and I had to ask myself, am I the 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:04.680 right person to do this at this time? Fortunately? 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:06.400 I was on well fit for purpose? 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:09.200 Am I fit for purpose? Am I fit to serve? 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:12.280 And I think it was a really, really important reflection. 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:15.120 I'm glad I gave myself the time to reflect. 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:16.680 How much time do you give yourself? 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:17.640 Oh an hour? 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:22.400 Do you walk in the bathroom at the hospital you're 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:23.960 working the rounds it and just looked at yourself in 0:15:23.960 --> 0:15:25.680 the mirror, saying, okay, we've got sixty minutes. 0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:30.760 Let's talk this. Yeah, let's work shop this. No, I 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:33.440 mean it was a that sounds a bit glib. It 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:35.400 was only an hour and I got back to Paul, 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:38.280 but it was some serious for us, compelling just to 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:42.080 pause and say stop, let's have a think. Are you 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:45.600 Are you enough on the road to recovery because you've 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:47.800 seen I mean, we've got a lot of good examples 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.800 of what happens to people in public positions, and people 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:53.200 have been really open and frank about their mental health, 0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:55.960 and particularly when it's led to the end of their careers. 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:58.400 Now this was on the opposite. This was really what 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:02.280 launched where I am, and I had to reflect about 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:03.920 whether I was in the place to do it. 0:16:03.960 --> 0:16:06.040 When you think back at it, do you think you 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:08.200 had any sense of what you're saying yes to? 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:12.000 No, No, I don't think. I don't think we knew 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:14.880 just how enormous this was going to be, the gravity 0:16:14.920 --> 0:16:17.960 of our decisions, what it would do to the country, 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:20.760 And I think it's done an immense amount. You know, 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:25.360 both positive, but I have got some concerns about. You know, Mark, 0:16:25.400 --> 0:16:28.840 we talk about critical junctures in the life of our nation, 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:33.600 and that's where you're on one railroad and something happens 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.120 and you hop on another railroad. And I've listened to 0:16:36.320 --> 0:16:39.360 a lot of your guests on this podcast, and I 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:42.800 do worry that we shifted quite markedly to a heavy 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.040 dependence on government as a result of some of the 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:47.640 things that we did. And that is something that I 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:50.520 couldn't really have predicted in the thick of it there 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:52.240 or even reflected on. 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:56.040 So let's talk about that. Would you say, sitting back 0:16:56.080 --> 0:17:00.840 here today on reflection that governors may have advantage of 0:17:00.840 --> 0:17:04.520 that opportunity that they knew we would become more reliant 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:07.040 upon them. When I was saying Scott Morris, Scott, wasn't 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:12.080 it long enough? But are the governments? Dan Andrews. 0:17:12.160 --> 0:17:14.399 Perhaps I think that at the start there was a 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:17.200 genuine desire from most leaders to try and do the 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:20.280 right thing. Yes, But when I'm talking about the start, 0:17:20.480 --> 0:17:23.280 I'm really only talking about the first three months February 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.840 March April February March April, because after that we had 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.040 a fairly clear idea of who this was going to 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:33.200 affect and who wasn't at risk. But we got into 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:36.159 this and the thing that troubled me most mark was 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:40.560 that it showed us that instead of being a hopeful 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:42.840 Alarican nation, which is what I want. I want to 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.199 be part of that nation. Yeah, we were part of 0:17:45.720 --> 0:17:47.440 a locked up and very scared nation. 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:49.480 So how do we become those people? 0:17:49.520 --> 0:17:53.160 Though I don't know, I think it was a combination. Well, 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:55.000 I can say I don't know. I actually just did 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:58.679 a PhD on why we closed the international borders, and 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:01.960 it was, you know, in those sort of academic terms, 0:18:02.000 --> 0:18:07.280 it was because the fear that was generated, legitimate fear 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:12.439 the images out in New York and Italy, which you 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:16.080 know were as all media images are partly true. Clearly 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:18.440 those images happened, but I think the magnitude of what 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:21.639 was going on there was probably inflated, at least in 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:25.320 people's minds about how that would happen here. Nonetheless, it's 0:18:25.320 --> 0:18:29.800 important New York Italy combined with the advice from public health, 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:33.919 and then you get no counterweight from anyone in the 0:18:33.960 --> 0:18:36.920 economic or business fear, Like the only guy who's kicking 0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:44.960 up a fuss is is old mate from flight Center. Yes, screw, yes, 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:49.199 screw Graham, screw Turner, Yeah, absolutely sorry, screw. I know 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:51.880 him very well, so I should remember his name there. 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:54.439 And legitimately from an economic point of view, because his 0:18:54.520 --> 0:18:56.760 business would have been just completely decimated at that point. 0:18:56.880 --> 0:19:01.680 Absolutely, But everybody else was locking in, including Treasury. 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:04.959 But why were we so compliant? You've done pere well. 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:07.680 That was the lock in effect of all the institutions. 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:11.240 So the Business Council of Australia, the big four banks, 0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:13.840 all the banking executives, everybody was behind this. 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:16.439 But what happened to that? Larry put you said, what 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:19.280 happened to that anti authority lark and piece that we 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:21.280