Speaker 1: From the Sky News Center. This is Paul Murray Live.
Speaker 2: Hey there, and welcome to the program. James Burrow here
Speaker 2: sitting in for Paul here on Paul Murray Live. Another
Speaker 2: jam pack show for you guys tonight, All killer, no filler,
Speaker 2: including in just a few moments the mayor of Alice Springs,
Speaker 2: who's going to tell us all about how that snap
Speaker 2: three day curfew is going and what can be done
Speaker 2: to stop the violence in that town once and for all.
Speaker 2: Plus a bit later in the program, I'm going to
Speaker 2: introduce you to a new and I think very sensible
Speaker 2: voice on the energy debate and how the government is
Speaker 2: screwing it up with both hands. That's a little later
Speaker 2: in the program, but first let's do a little more
Speaker 2: of the swampy Joe now, sleepy Joe crisis, which is, yeah, really,
Speaker 2: it's a crisis now because a lot of Democrats and
Speaker 2: all the media who went along for years with the
Speaker 2: charade that Joe Biden was okay are now entirely furious
Speaker 2: that they've been made to look like fools after that
Speaker 2: debate performance last month. They want Biden to go, but
Speaker 2: the Bidens they want to stay. Joe and Jill and Hunter,
Speaker 2: they're all hold up in the White House and sending
Speaker 2: the message they are not going anywhere. Actually, Jill doctor
Speaker 2: Joe Biden sorry, got to get her title right. She's
Speaker 2: not hold up. She's going out there and acting like
Speaker 2: the candidate herself. She's done a three state tour in
Speaker 2: just one day to campaign on Joe's behalf. And I'll
Speaker 2: tell you what, right now, the ladies not for turning,
Speaker 2: have a look.
Speaker 3: Joe has made it clear that he's all in. That's
Speaker 3: the decision that he's made, and as he has always
Speaker 3: supported my career, I am all into.
Speaker 2: An apologies at home if that shattered any crystal sitting
Speaker 2: around your lounge room as that played. But meanwhile, there
Speaker 2: are increasing concerns about the President's health and whether he
Speaker 2: may actually have Parkinson's disease, after it was revealed that
Speaker 2: a Parkinson specialist from the Walter Reed Medical Center visited
Speaker 2: the White House eight times in the past year, entirely coincidentally.
Speaker 2: I'm sure it was just dropping by for a cup
Speaker 2: of tea. And now just in the past few hours,
Speaker 2: Donald Trump has broken his silence after I think ten
Speaker 2: days of not doing any public events, telling Fox News
Speaker 2: is Sean Hannity about the debate and his concerns about
Speaker 2: Joe Biden that developed while they were on stage.
Speaker 4: That night, the moment they introduced us and then they
Speaker 4: introduced him and introduce me, and I walked out on
Speaker 4: us arm and he looked extremely pale, to put it nicely,
Speaker 4: And I don't know, maybe it was a good makeup
Speaker 4: job or maybe it wasn't, but he was a very
Speaker 4: pale looking man. And when he started to speak, I
Speaker 4: don't know. I thought his voice was weak. I didn't
Speaker 4: know exactly what was happening.
Speaker 1: Was strange.
Speaker 2: Well, he saw the same stuff that we all saw
Speaker 2: at home. But in the meantime, Joe Biden, this is
Speaker 2: the thing, this is where the real crisis comes in.
Speaker 2: It's going to be very hard to get rid of
Speaker 2: him because he has the delegates to stay on the
Speaker 2: ticket in November, and the US Constitution doesn't really provide
Speaker 2: an easy way out of this. There's no party room
Speaker 2: to roll him like there is here or in a
Speaker 2: Westminster democracy. Now we're going to take a deeper dive
Speaker 2: into this with the panel shortly, but in the meantime,
Speaker 2: I gotta say, what an absolute mess. Now again, we're
Speaker 2: gonna have the out springs. Mayor Matt Patterson here with
Speaker 2: the latest from the Northern Territory of the curfew and
Speaker 2: the ongoing crime problem. But before we get to that,
Speaker 2: the Prime Minister has had another stab at social cohesion today.
Speaker 2: Social cohesion, of course, is the code word or the
Speaker 2: code phrase that we used to say, Hey, we let
Speaker 2: our society become totally fractured by multiculturalism and self loathing,
Speaker 2: and now we've got to figure out how to stick
Speaker 2: it all back together. Well, and I suppose kudos to
Speaker 2: Anthony Albinizi for recognizing that, yes, we do have a
Speaker 2: real problem here and that particularly since October seventh, naked
Speaker 2: antisemitism in its rawest form has been a real serious
Speaker 2: concern for the community. Today Albinizi announced the appointment of
Speaker 2: a new anti Semitism Envoy, Gillian Siegel. She is a
Speaker 2: prominent and very well regarded Sydney businesswoman and lawyer and
Speaker 2: leader in the Jewish community, and she was tapped by
Speaker 2: the PM to help tackle the crisis. Here's a little
Speaker 2: of what the PM had to say.
Speaker 5: What we need to do is to make sure that
Speaker 5: the conflict that is occurring in the Middle East has
Speaker 5: caused a great deal of grief for the Jewish community
Speaker 5: for members of the Islamic Palestinian communities. Australians overwhelmingly do
Speaker 5: not want conflict brought here. The appointment is for three years.
Speaker 5: We hope that there's not a need to have ongoing work,
Speaker 5: but it has been a reminder over recent months that
Speaker 5: we just can't take that respect and social cohesion for granted,
Speaker 5: we need to nourish it.
Speaker 2: Okay, good, good, and good on the Prime Minister. But
Speaker 2: this is all fine as far as it goes. But
Speaker 2: you know what, I think it's a lovely idea, but
Speaker 2: as always, the devil is in the detail. The first
Speaker 2: and I think biggest issue here is that the PM
Speaker 2: is once again doing the both sides thing. There's reason
Speaker 2: the host of the show, Paul Murray calls him each
Speaker 2: way albow. He's absolutely terrified that labor is on the
Speaker 2: nose with Muslim voters in heavily Muslim seats in Western
Speaker 2: Sydney and Melbourne, and that the rumblings from Fatima Payman
Speaker 2: and others who now seem to be organizing what might
Speaker 2: fairly be called the Islamic Teals is just the beginning.
Speaker 2: So not only is Albanezi appointing someone to tackle the
Speaker 2: very real anti Semitism problem. But yeah, you knew this
Speaker 2: was coming, did it you. He is also going to
Speaker 2: a point on islama phobia Envoy for real.
Speaker 5: Shortly we'll also be announcing an envoy on Islamophobia that
Speaker 5: will be important as well, playing a similar role working
Speaker 5: with that community to promote social cohesion.
Speaker 2: Now, you don't even have to agree with the late
Speaker 2: Christopher Hitchin's definition of his lava phobia. Look it up
Speaker 2: if you're curious to see why this is a problem.
Speaker 2: And this is of course not the first time of
Speaker 2: the PM has done this both sides thing either on
Speaker 2: this issue and many others being unable to condemn the
Speaker 2: very real rise of antisemitism without also saying and his
Speaker 2: lama phobia.
Speaker 1: But look, I kind.
Speaker 2: Of think that even if both things exist, and sure
Speaker 2: they do right now in Australia, they're not really on
Speaker 2: the same scale. I mean, let me explain. After Hamas's
Speaker 2: October seventh attacks, while Israel was still counting it's dead
Speaker 2: before it's fired a single shot in retaliation, did pro
Speaker 2: Israeli demonstrators we never saw this. We didn't see them
Speaker 2: swarm the opera house and chant threatening slogans about Muslims.
Speaker 2: Did we no? But there were plenty of Muslims out
Speaker 2: chanting f the Jews and lots of other nasty stuff,
Speaker 2: even if the New South Wales police took great pains
Speaker 2: to assure us that they weren't saying gas the Jews.
Speaker 2: But where's the Jews? Because I'm sure the demonstrators just
Speaker 2: wanted to invite them to a friendly interfaith if tar.
Speaker 2: Nor have we seen much of the way, frankly, of
Speaker 2: Jews celebrating the deaths of Palestinians in Gaza, though we
Speaker 2: did see a fair bit of this in those western
Speaker 2: Sydney seats. The PM is so keen to keep for labor.
Speaker 2: I'm slighty, I'm smiling, and I'm happy. I'm the nighted.
Speaker 2: That's a day of courage charming. Are you feeling the
Speaker 2: enrichment yet? And of course these there were. Was, but
Speaker 2: wasn't much in the ways of convoys of cars driving
Speaker 2: through predominantly Muslim neighborhoods, either waving Israeli flags and intimidating
Speaker 2: people like there were Palestinian supporters blasting through Jewish neighborhoods
Speaker 2: The fact is Labor really only does the right thing
Speaker 2: on this when it thinks it can get away with it,
Speaker 2: just as it finally backed an in query into anti
Speaker 2: semitism in universities last week, two months after shutting down
Speaker 2: another attempt to get one up by the Coalition. I
Speaker 2: think we all need to be really clear here that
Speaker 2: anti Semitism is a civilizational sickness, and one that is
Speaker 2: these days far more often seen on the left than
Speaker 2: on the right. Just think of Jeremy Corbyn in England,
Speaker 2: or the virulent anti semitism on display from the far
Speaker 2: left in France which won that election the other day,
Speaker 2: and where things have gotten so bad that the chief
Speaker 2: Rabbi in that country has sold Jews that if they can,
Speaker 2: they should move out of the country. Now let's go
Speaker 2: to Alice Springs, which has gone through its first night
Speaker 2: of a snap curfew. The mayor of Matt Patterson has
Speaker 2: been good enough to join us here on Palmurray Live. Matt,
Speaker 2: how did things go in the first night?
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was quieter.
Speaker 6: It wasn't a perfect night, but it certainly was better
Speaker 6: than what we've seen the last six or seven days.
Speaker 6: So we had a few cars stolen in the industrial area,
Speaker 6: which is not impacted by the declaration. But look, it
Speaker 6: was certainly better than what it was, but it certainly
Speaker 6: wasn't perfect.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just very briefly, just explain to viewers who
Speaker 2: might just be tuting into this situation what happened in
Speaker 2: the lead up to this decision to issue this curfew.
Speaker 6: So a brief snapshot is there was a police officer
Speaker 6: on Judy at a bottle shot, which is pretty standard
Speaker 6: as to what we have. He was doing his job
Speaker 6: and he was involved in a hit and run accident.
Speaker 6: We've seen a person stabbed on the council lawns in
Speaker 6: a Natock celebration. We then seen four off duty police
Speaker 6: officers walking home from a function bashed by twenty people,
Speaker 6: and then ap and a group of views hold up
Speaker 6: a service station with weapons and still are about four
Speaker 6: and a half thousand dollars worth of cash. So it
Speaker 6: wasn't just a one incident that's led us to this situation.
Speaker 2: It was many so a whole series of alleged incidents
Speaker 2: against a variety of people with some wild allegations there.
Speaker 2: What has been the mood in the community with things
Speaker 2: being so bad that this action is needy. How are
Speaker 2: people feeling on the streets.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, firstly, they're pretty disappointed to be on
Speaker 6: the front page of every newspaper again because preceding this
Speaker 6: it was actually a really nice place to live. From
Speaker 6: the last curfew, it's actually made a dramatic impact, right,
Speaker 6: So whatever they did twelve weeks ago was clearly worked
Speaker 6: and we've just had a small hiccup. But people are frustrated,
Speaker 6: and you know, they don't celebrate the decision for a curfew.
Speaker 6: They welcome it because they want to be safe, and
Speaker 6: I think first and foremost people want to be safe
Speaker 6: in the community.
Speaker 1: We did see last time more people who've.
Speaker 6: Lived in Alice Springs for a long time go out
Speaker 6: to restaurants and because they hadn't felt safe for months before.
Speaker 6: So we'll wait and see what this holds. It's meant
Speaker 6: to close on Thursday. My gut feeling is that it
Speaker 6: will be extended past the weekend, but we'll wait and
Speaker 6: see what happens.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's quite telling what you say that
Speaker 2: about people, you know, being able to feel like they
Speaker 2: can come out again after you know, feeling like they're
Speaker 2: under seedge for months. But you know these snap curfews
Speaker 2: aren't the long term fixed As the mayor, what policy
Speaker 2: changes do you think need to be made, either to
Speaker 2: territory or a federal level.
Speaker 6: Well, we've had, you know, this is thirty years of
Speaker 6: policy on the run that's got our Springs into this
Speaker 6: situation like Ola Springs in Central Australia. You know, we
Speaker 6: are a service hub too many remote communities and fortunately
Speaker 6: they're just all coming to Alice Springs for whatever to
Speaker 6: make Alice Springs their home. And that's not right or wrong,
Speaker 6: but it's meaning that remote community is becoming scarcer. I
Speaker 6: think the announcement by the Prime Minister of around two
Speaker 6: hundred and fifty million that's the right idea, but it's
Speaker 6: you know, it's got to hit the ground sooner or later,
Speaker 6: and it's not a criticism of it taking so long. Finally,
Speaker 6: we've had a bucket of money that's been consulted properly
Speaker 6: about where to spend. It's just been a long time
Speaker 6: between drinks for remote remote communities to roll that cash
Speaker 6: out on.
Speaker 1: So we will wait and see.
Speaker 6: Obviously, clearly we need some safe housing for young people
Speaker 6: in Central Australia where one of the only jurisdictions in
Speaker 6: the country without.
Speaker 1: A youth for you, we clearly need that.
Speaker 6: We've talked many times, you and I about the challenges
Speaker 6: of youth and housing and homelessness faith in the region.
Speaker 1: It's got to be at the top of the priority
Speaker 1: list for me.
Speaker 2: Alice Springsby or Matt Patterson, thank you so much for
Speaker 2: your time and I hope the next time that we
Speaker 2: chat we can be talking about some tourist development or
Speaker 2: something you know really positive in your community. Thank you
Speaker 2: so much being the time to join me here on
Speaker 2: Palmurray Live. And good luck to you and the entire
Speaker 2: Alice Springs community tonight. Now there's something you don't see
Speaker 2: every day. A blockade Australia protester has been sent to prison.
Speaker 2: Laura Davey was sentenced to three months jail after being
Speaker 2: among the thirty people charged for disrupting trains around the
Speaker 2: Port of Newcastle recently. Let's bring in my first panel,
Speaker 2: National's MP Keith Pitt and media writer for The Australian,
Speaker 2: Sophie Ellsworth. Keith, Sophie, thanks so much for joining me
Speaker 2: here on the program. I'm just amazed to have this
Speaker 2: good news story here of a protester actually getting a
Speaker 2: bit of co come up in for their actions. Keith,
Speaker 2: do you think there's justice served here?
Speaker 7: Well, firstly, finally, it's about time. But keep in mind,
Speaker 7: what about the other twenty nine. Where's their gile tern?
Speaker 7: Because they've all disrupted the railway network. It impacts passenger
Speaker 7: services as well. It Delais Coull supplies all around the world.
Speaker 7: It costs the fortune, which is why they do it.
Speaker 7: But worse still, they put themselves at risk. And for
Speaker 7: all of those train drivers, they know how long it
Speaker 7: takes for those trains to stop. It could be more
Speaker 7: than a kilometer. And yet you've got protesters. They think
Speaker 7: you can just jump in front of them and they'll
Speaker 7: push a button and this thing will pull up. Someone
Speaker 7: will get hurt. It's about time they've cracked down, and
Speaker 7: I think there should be more of it.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, no, I think you're absolutely right there. But
Speaker 2: Sophie Lura is appealing the sentence, which may see her
Speaker 2: treated like another protester, Violet Coco, who was released and
Speaker 2: immediately vowed to keep protesting. I feel like something needs
Speaker 2: to be done here because these courts in general seem
Speaker 2: to just go for the minimum do we need to
Speaker 2: have some sort of mandatory minimums where you actually do
Speaker 2: see the inside of a cell if you do this
Speaker 2: sort of activity.
Speaker 8: Well, in my view, James, there is not a severe
Speaker 8: enough penalty for these protesters because it's not to tearing
Speaker 8: them from you know, taking place in these ridiculous, dangerous
Speaker 8: and quite frankly stupid acts that they're doing, putting their
Speaker 8: own lives at risk, as Keith said, and also the
Speaker 8: lives of others. It's completely moronic and they should be
Speaker 8: punished for it. I'm all for people protesting and voicing
Speaker 8: their opinions, but to do so carefully and not getting
Speaker 8: in the way of others who are going about their business.
Speaker 8: And this is massively disruptive, you know, to the train services,
Speaker 8: to the Qulifi power stations. This is really dangerous stuff,
Speaker 8: and as Keith said, it's only a matter of time
Speaker 8: before somebody does get hurt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and let's hope that it's not one of those
Speaker 2: first responders or a police officer or somebody else who's
Speaker 2: dealing with these people when they are you know, they
Speaker 2: go out and do these I think frankly really narcissistic
Speaker 2: and ego driven protests about their own petty cause of
Speaker 2: the day. But let's move on to another story here.
Speaker 2: And I think this is something that's really important and
Speaker 2: I don't think people have tuned in on this enough.
Speaker 2: More disappointing figures around our wage growth as the Organization
Speaker 2: for Economic Cooperation and Development the OECD, has just revealed
Speaker 2: hours ago that Australian real wage growth is among the
Speaker 2: worst of the OECD's thirty eight nations, lagging behind the UK,
Speaker 2: the US, the Canada in Canada, Sophie, is this another
Speaker 2: labor promise broken? Here? The report says Australia remained four
Speaker 2: point eight percent below pre pandemic levels. We are now
Speaker 2: poorer than we were before the pandemic.
Speaker 8: Well, I think James, a lot of people would agree
Speaker 8: with that. It seems that many people have less money
Speaker 8: in their pockets since labor got into government. Now could
Speaker 8: the coalition have changed this? We won't know obviously. However,
Speaker 8: we were promised, for instance, that our power bills would
Speaker 8: come down, that our wages would go up, and we
Speaker 8: would be better off under Prime Minister Anthony Albanesi. And
Speaker 8: I think if you went and did a street poll
Speaker 8: and ask punters out there how they're feeling. I don't
Speaker 8: think you'd find many who say they are financially better
Speaker 8: off under this labor government.
Speaker 2: Well that's the think, Keith. I mean, Alban Easy and
Speaker 2: Charldraze keep saying, oh, you know, we're getting wages moving again.
Speaker 2: People are getting more money in their pocket. We're going
Speaker 2: to get more money in our pay packets now. This
Speaker 2: month there's been millions of dollars telling us all of this.
Speaker 2: But at the heart of this, to me, Keith, it
Speaker 2: seems like there's a couple of issues. Number one, productivity
Speaker 2: and number two the huge amounts of migrants that we're
Speaker 2: bringing in every year to this country who are suppressing wages.
Speaker 2: How do we get productivity moving again, Keith.
Speaker 7: Pitt Well, Jimbo's actually delivered on a commitment. He's got
Speaker 7: real wages moving. It's just the wrong direction.
Speaker 2: They all worse off.
Speaker 7: This is the fundamental problem. I mean, this is a
Speaker 7: treasure who struts up to the dispatch box, models himself
Speaker 7: on the Collkeating, leans in on the elbow, and spends
Speaker 7: all of his time talking about Angus Taylor. None of
Speaker 7: those things help people deal with inflation. Inflation which is
Speaker 7: a direct result of the labor government's policies. It doesn't
Speaker 7: get productivity improvements, it doesn't get more houses built, It
Speaker 7: got real wages moving in the wrong direction. And we
Speaker 7: will see more of this because Jimbo nomics just doesn't work.
Speaker 7: And every single Australian their dollar is now worth less
Speaker 7: than what it was when labor came into government. They
Speaker 7: can buy less with it. The cost of everything is
Speaker 7: through the roof and you're on the money. Unless you're
Speaker 7: going to address productivity and get inflation under control, this
Speaker 7: is going to continue.
Speaker 2: Well, that's it. Productively is the only way you get
Speaker 2: inflation under control. You talk to any Cannovis, they'll tell
Speaker 2: you that. But let's let's go over because I want
Speaker 2: to talk to you guys. I want to get you
Speaker 2: guys thoughts about old Joe Biden, who is now I think,
Speaker 2: completely committed to staying in the race. He says he's
Speaker 2: in it for the long haul, and he's written a
Speaker 2: letter to Congressional Democrats saying he's not going anywhere. And
Speaker 2: he even called in to MSNBC, which is basically like
Speaker 2: the you know, Zvestia of America. Here's the Soviet White
Speaker 2: House broadcasting channel to Morning Morning Joe on MSNBC this morning.
Speaker 2: Let's have a look.
Speaker 1: Come on, give me a break, Come with me.
Speaker 4: Why why I'm getting so frustrated by the elite.
Speaker 8: Now, I'm not talking about you guys, but about the
Speaker 8: elite and the party who.
Speaker 4: They know so much more. But any of these guys,
Speaker 4: I don't think I should run against me. Announced the
Speaker 4: president challenge man to convention.
Speaker 2: Wow, he's fired up there. But I'll tell you what
Speaker 2: his former White House Press Secretary Jen Saki has said,
Speaker 2: It is time to really ask if he if Joe
Speaker 2: Biden is the best man for the job.
Speaker 9: The man I saw on that debate stage in Atlanta
Speaker 9: was not the person I worked for more than two
Speaker 9: years ago. It is not about whether he would stand
Speaker 9: up for democracy.
Speaker 10: He would.
Speaker 9: It is whether he is the right person to defeat
Speaker 9: Donald Trump. If I sat here every night and told
Speaker 9: you that every question being asked out there is unfair,
Speaker 9: I wouldn't be respecting you.
Speaker 2: Sophie. This is a really big loss I think for
Speaker 2: Biden in terms of you know, his supporters, but also
Speaker 2: you know, as somebody who covers the media, what do
Speaker 2: you make of all of these people in the US
Speaker 2: media who had spent years and years and years saying no, no, no,
Speaker 2: Joe Biden's fine. All your people on you know, Sky News,
Speaker 2: you say he's not. You guys are gaslighting. Well they
Speaker 2: were gaslighting us. They knew, and now they're angry that
Speaker 2: they've been shown up. What do you make of the
Speaker 2: mood of the media in the US, Sophie.
Speaker 10: Well, James, you know, is better than anyone.
Speaker 8: But quite frankly, I think the main have been quite
Speaker 8: appalling and not calling out Joe Biden for his failures,
Speaker 8: his cognitive failures that have been present and obvious four years.
Speaker 8: They have been in total denial James over this. We
Speaker 8: were talking about this on Sky long long ago and
Speaker 8: criticized heavily for this. But now they've finally woken up
Speaker 8: over there in America, and I think this is the
Speaker 8: gift that is just going to keep giving for Donald Trump.
Speaker 8: Why would he want Joe Biden to step aside? Not
Speaker 8: forgetting Joe Biden is eighty two in November, So if
Speaker 8: you're get into office and he's in this shape and now,
Speaker 8: heaven help us if he's got another four years ahead,
Speaker 8: and James to be really honest about this, I think
Speaker 8: it's a sad state of affairs that he doesn't seem
Speaker 8: to have all his faculties, but his ego is getting
Speaker 8: the better of him, and he's determined and saying I
Speaker 8: will stay here.
Speaker 10: I mean, this is going to be a shocking a
Speaker 10: few months.
Speaker 8: Ahead for him, with already that disastrous presidential debate. I mean,
Speaker 8: if that's the warm up, Heaven help us for the
Speaker 8: rest of what we've got ahead in months.
Speaker 2: To go, and between now and the election and the
Speaker 2: inauguration day, you know, all of the world's enemies, you know,
Speaker 2: North Korea, Russia, China will be all looking at this
Speaker 2: and thinking who's in charge here? Keith Pitt. Former Prime
Speaker 2: Minister John Howard told this network earlier today. He said
Speaker 2: that were we in one of the United States, in
Speaker 2: an Australian type of situation, you know, in terms of
Speaker 2: a system of government, this guy would have been tapped
Speaker 2: on the shoulder long ago. Is he right? And is
Speaker 2: this a flaw in the otherwise glorious American constitutional system
Speaker 2: that there's no way really to move somebody on in
Speaker 2: this sort of situation.
Speaker 7: I was in Australie, he wouldn't be tapped on the shovel.
Speaker 7: He'd be run over by the charge of the Lbrary
Speaker 7: guide everybody in the house, the rips, we'll be stepping
Speaker 7: up apart from across the fifteen pH that so can
Speaker 7: Ne would be probably minister because that's the arrangement. Yeah,
Speaker 7: but I mean it's just so blatantly obvious now and
Speaker 7: the American people I do deserve better. Inside is the
Speaker 7: world we were law on the United States for security.
Speaker 7: They want to be a greatest allies, in fact, probably
Speaker 7: the greatest defense alloy that we have. And the idea
Speaker 7: that a country of three hundred million people has no
Speaker 7: one else, I just think that's fanciful. Clearly there are others.
Speaker 7: Whatever needs to happen has to happen. It's their democratic system.
Speaker 7: That's that's how I get things done. But by in
Speaker 7: Australia you wouldn't have to step up on os for
Speaker 7: a challenger.
Speaker 10: I'd already be.
Speaker 2: There'll be a lot of hands up with that party.
Speaker 2: Who will tell you what? But you know this, this
Speaker 2: has gone from what we've joked about about tripping up
Speaker 2: the stairs and falling off bikes. We're now in a
Speaker 2: really serious territory and there's now a lot of swirling
Speaker 2: rumor I mentioned this at the start of the show.
Speaker 2: Does the President have Parkinson's or some other degenerative condition?
Speaker 2: And you know, we had this news that the Parks
Speaker 2: a specialist has visited the White House eight times in
Speaker 2: eight months now. The current White House Press Secretary, Karine
Speaker 2: Jean Pierre, she had a huge blue in the media
Speaker 2: room with the other reporters today. She was pretty animated
Speaker 2: on this. Have a look at this.
Speaker 11: So I am telling you that he has seen or
Speaker 11: a neurologists three times while he has been in this presidency.
Speaker 11: That's what I'm saying her. I also said to you,
Speaker 11: for security reasons, we cannot share names. We cannot share names.
Speaker 2: And this went back and forth for ten or twelve
Speaker 2: minutes here. But Sophie, again, from a media perspective, why
Speaker 2: does it Joe Biden just take the cognitive tests and say,
Speaker 2: you know, I'll do it live on TV. This would
Speaker 2: seem to be the thing that would just set this
Speaker 2: all to rest.
Speaker 10: James, of course, he's not going to do that.
Speaker 8: I think the money would be on that he would
Speaker 8: fail miserably.
Speaker 10: And this is just.
Speaker 8: Diverting away from the issues in America they should be addressing.
Speaker 8: But instead all the media coverage he's focused on. Is
Speaker 8: Joe Biden mentally up to running for president again?
Speaker 10: This is a massive distraction. This is a gift.
Speaker 8: For Donald Trump and hugely embarrassing for Joe Biden. Even
Speaker 8: if we're discussing this now, people will make their own
Speaker 8: minds up whether there's a piece of paper from a.
Speaker 10: Doctor or not.
Speaker 8: The guy doesn't know half the names of people. He
Speaker 8: stuffs things up repeatedly. He falls upstairs, he falls off bicycles.
Speaker 10: I mean, it's sad to watch.
Speaker 8: This is the president of the US who's digging his
Speaker 8: heels in and saying, I am staying here. I mean,
Speaker 8: how is he going to run an office If he's
Speaker 8: saying at the presidential bait he's tired after he was
Speaker 8: on a flight several weeks earlier.
Speaker 10: He probably is tired.
Speaker 8: He's eighty one, for heaven's sake, he probably does need
Speaker 8: to put his feet up and have a rest. I
Speaker 8: think a lot of us would be doing that at
Speaker 8: eighty one. But this is really just dragging out the
Speaker 8: inevitable that he's not up to it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Keith, we've got these stories that you know
Speaker 2: he has to go to bed at eight pm. We're
Speaker 2: two years ago. He was at a meeting with Germany.
Speaker 2: He went to bed early and Anthony Blincoln had to
Speaker 2: come and step in at the meeting. How concerns would
Speaker 2: be here in Australia about our security umbrella when we've
Speaker 2: got somebody like Joe Biden and god knows who was
Speaker 2: actually running things and picking up the phone the red
Speaker 2: foot if that rings you in the White House.
Speaker 7: I don't think there's any doubt that the US administration
Speaker 7: will will support Australia. I don't think there's any question
Speaker 7: of suret whatsoever. In their time of need. We have
Speaker 7: always supported them and I think that will always hold.
Speaker 1: Us in good stead.
Speaker 7: But just the fact that anyone's talking about, oh, you
Speaker 7: have to do a cognitive test and you have to
Speaker 7: get adopted to certified, just the fact that those questions
Speaker 7: are around are incredibly damaging. I mean, it's like Homer
Speaker 7: Simpson when he gets certified saying right, and that's straight
Speaker 7: out of a cartoon. We're talking about the leader of
Speaker 7: the United States. And just the fact that the media
Speaker 7: is talking about this and this is a focus. Surely
Speaker 7: Summer can get this sorted.
Speaker 2: Bet, you're completely right. I couldn't agree with more with
Speaker 2: both of you. Keith Pitt, Sophie Elsworth, thank you so
Speaker 2: much for coming on joining me tonight on Paul Murray Live.
Speaker 2: We'll see you next time. Now, the debate continues after
Speaker 2: the break. My next panel'll be taking a look at
Speaker 2: at the New South Wales premiers proposed micro cities. Is
Speaker 2: this going to be the solution really to the ever
Speaker 2: worsening housing crisis? Stick around after the break. Welcome back
Speaker 2: to the program. James Morrow here filling in for Paul
Speaker 2: on Paul Murray Live. Let's continue the debate and discussion.
Speaker 2: Joining me now is Center for Youth Policy at the
Speaker 2: Menzies Research Center Director Freya Leach and LLNP MP Henry Pike.
Speaker 2: Welcome to both of you now. Freya, I want to
Speaker 2: talk to you about this here. Housing it is like
Speaker 2: the number one concern for young people. You're a young person.
Speaker 2: The first draft proposals under New South Wales Premiere Chris
Speaker 2: Mins has got this accelerated precincts idea in Sydney's north
Speaker 2: and northwest. He wants to put these micro cities all
Speaker 2: around in these outer suburbs with thirty thousand homes and
Speaker 2: some sort of density and things like this. Is this
Speaker 2: a solution? Is this going to be the solution to
Speaker 2: getting young people into homes?
Speaker 12: It's hard to say. I mean, I think you're exactly right.
Speaker 12: It is the number one issue, and for good reason.
Speaker 12: Home ownership has never been more difficult for young people
Speaker 12: than it is today. The question is will this be enough?
Speaker 12: I'm not so sure. We've had about one point two
Speaker 12: million new migrants come to the country since the election.
Speaker 12: We've built about three hundred and eighty thousand houses. The
Speaker 12: math ain't math in as as, so I'm not sure
Speaker 12: if these microcities are going to change that. I think
Speaker 12: it's the right approach. Planning reform is definitely needed, but
Speaker 12: there are a lot of other factors impacting the housing
Speaker 12: market as well. We've seen builders going bus. The rate
Speaker 12: of builders going bus is increased by one hundred and
Speaker 12: fifty percent in the last year. At the same time,
Speaker 12: the number of people going into apprenticeships is decreased by
Speaker 12: twenty two percent. Cost of materials, inflation, interest rates are
Speaker 12: all still going up. So amidst that environment, will Chris
Speaker 12: Mins's micro cities be the solution? I'd love if they were.
Speaker 12: I'm just not confident.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Henry Pike, I mean, you know, you're in Queensland,
Speaker 2: so it's slightly different for you. But the same problem
Speaker 2: exists basically everywhere. It's too many people, not enough houses,
Speaker 2: it cost too much to build, there's too many regulations,
Speaker 2: all of this stuff. You know, where where is the
Speaker 2: government falling down on its ability to create this And
Speaker 2: how much can can the federal government even do besides
Speaker 2: dialing down the huge number of migrants that we're getting
Speaker 2: into the country every year, to actually encourage the supply
Speaker 2: of housing.
Speaker 10: It's a very, very.
Speaker 1: Good question, James.
Speaker 13: It's one of the most intractable problems that we have
Speaker 13: in public policy at the moment. How do we get
Speaker 13: affordable housing? How do we get enough housing to meet
Speaker 13: the growing demand? And head off to Chris Mins, I
Speaker 13: think this is a part of the puzzle that needs
Speaker 13: to be done. I think this is a good step forward,
Speaker 13: but there is a lot that we need to do
Speaker 13: at all levels of government. And I think the role
Speaker 13: for the federal government is to really use what we have,
Speaker 13: and that is a lot of money and a lot
Speaker 13: of pressure to be able to lean on the state
Speaker 13: governments and say how you're going to actually increase supply.
Speaker 13: We can turn down demand. We've already made announcements around
Speaker 13: trying to bring migration down to a sustainable level, but
Speaker 13: really the pressure needs to be on local governments and
Speaker 13: state governments to work out how do we boost supply,
Speaker 13: how do we reform your planning systems to enable people
Speaker 13: to build homes, and how do we get that trunk
Speaker 13: infrastructure built out to these areas where we need to
Speaker 13: kida for the growth.
Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's the thing. I mean, if you're putting
Speaker 2: the housing out in places like Kellyville and Bella Vista,
Speaker 2: beautiful parts of the world, but it's a long way
Speaker 2: from anything anyway. Let's move on though, because there's so
Speaker 2: much else to talk about. We brought you this story
Speaker 2: yesterday and now supermarket giant Woolworths have apologized after backtracking
Speaker 2: on their Australia Day merchandise blackout. Now this all comes
Speaker 2: around the preparation for the Paris Olympics, and Woolley said,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, we got the Olympics going on. We'll now
Speaker 2: sell some national flags, green and gold cupcakes, doughnuts and
Speaker 2: a smash cake whatever that is, with a dollar off
Speaker 2: every product supporting Paralympics, Australia lovely stuff, And they said
Speaker 2: that we acknowledge that we disappointed many of you and
Speaker 2: our other customers when we decided not to sell Australian
Speaker 2: the merchandise in January this year. I note, though, Henry,
Speaker 2: they didn't say Australia Day they said in January this year,
Speaker 2: like they can't even bring themselves to say the words.
Speaker 2: What do you make of this? Backflip? Is this just
Speaker 2: all about trying to get Peter Dutton not to break
Speaker 2: them up?
Speaker 13: That may be part of it, James, that may be
Speaker 13: part of it. I did also note the emission of
Speaker 13: the words Australia from their statement, and as the proponent
Speaker 13: of my Australia Bill to ensure we keep the day
Speaker 13: on the twenty sixth of January, I was disappointed to
Speaker 13: see that. But also they acknowledged the Australian flag not
Speaker 13: as our flag, but as the symbol of the Australian
Speaker 13: Olympic team. And I thought, okay, that side, let's also
Speaker 13: the symbol of our nation. Isn't that what's celebrating? Why
Speaker 13: are you only bringing it in at this point in time. Look,
Speaker 13: I welcome their backflip. I think it's long over due,
Speaker 13: but I hope that as we creep around Australia next year,
Speaker 13: I'm not going to just see green and gold cupcakes.
Speaker 13: But I want the full Australian paraphernalia. I want all
Speaker 13: the bunting to be able to purchase to take over
Speaker 13: to my place for my barbecue.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I mean, fre it's really amazing to me.
Speaker 2: We are in July, you know, so Australia is like
Speaker 2: five six months away and we are already having this debate.
Speaker 2: Isn't there a huge problem here when corporates like Wilworth
Speaker 2: and all these other companies they keep trying to just
Speaker 2: you know, dial things around in the culture according to
Speaker 2: their own kind of c suite ethics, which are very lefty,
Speaker 2: very woke and all of that, rather than just you know,
Speaker 2: giving people what to want.
Speaker 12: Amazing, I know, right, I mean that's the thing is
Speaker 12: a private company ultimately, they can do whatever they want,
Speaker 12: and if they're on a boycott Australia day, they can
Speaker 12: do that. But wading into cultural territory from the comfy
Speaker 12: couches of your multi billion dollar company executive office, I
Speaker 12: don't think that's a smart thing to do. And I
Speaker 12: think they're realizing it puts you into a tough, tough position,
Speaker 12: and they're backtracking. And I think what we do know
Speaker 12: about Australia is they don't want elites trying to change
Speaker 12: our culture by stealth. If we are going to have
Speaker 12: a conversation about changing the day, then that should be
Speaker 12: in the open and driven by the public. It shouldn't
Speaker 12: be driven by people sitting in c suite offices like
Speaker 12: you said.
Speaker 2: Well, and you know, I was going to get to
Speaker 2: the queens lande crime crisis in a minute with Henry,
Speaker 2: but I want to just follow up with this for you,
Speaker 2: because you know you're at the Menzies Research Center. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of talk about social cohesion and you know,
Speaker 2: how we come together as a nation. And I know
Speaker 2: Australia is a symbolic thing, but is it a damaging
Speaker 2: thing if we don't have any sort of uniting symbols
Speaker 2: or days that we can just get together around rather
Speaker 2: than having this horrible, torturous conversation God help us every year.
Speaker 2: I know.
Speaker 12: Well, it's part of what makes a country a nation
Speaker 12: rather than just a state. You can be a state
Speaker 12: where people all he lives again, or a dormitory. You
Speaker 12: happen to live in the same place at the same time,
Speaker 12: but that doesn't make you a nation. You're a nation
Speaker 12: when you have shared stories and values that bind you
Speaker 12: together into one people. As we lose symbol after symbol,
Speaker 12: day after day, tradition after tradition, we undermine that nationhood
Speaker 12: and Australia starts to be reduced to a country estate,
Speaker 12: but not a nation of unified people. And that is
Speaker 12: a real risk and I think that's something we should
Speaker 12: fight against.
Speaker 2: That is very very well said. Now let's move on, though.
Speaker 2: We got to go back to Queenslan because we've got
Speaker 2: this huge election coming up and crime crisis and Premier
Speaker 2: Stephen Miles smile and Stephen Miles he's continuing to feel
Speaker 2: the heat after he failed to rebuke Opposition leader David
Speaker 2: Chris Fooley's adult crime Adult time policy. Miles slammed it
Speaker 2: as a slick forward slogan. I think that's inflation. We
Speaker 2: used to have three word slogans. Now we have forward
Speaker 2: slogans without offering any real or substantial we said. In
Speaker 2: case you missed it, here's what Smiles had to say.
Speaker 14: The MP's own police spokesperson says that they see crime
Speaker 14: as the way to win seats, that his job as
Speaker 14: their police spokesperson is to exploit crime to win seats,
Speaker 14: and that's all David Christophiley is doing here with another
Speaker 14: slick focus group's political.
Speaker 2: Slogan, Well, Henry, I mean, I don't think if you're
Speaker 2: a victim of a crime or a carjacking or a
Speaker 2: home invasion in Townsville or Brisbane or some regional center,
Speaker 2: you really care too much about Steven Miles's complaints. But
Speaker 2: a forward slogan you want something done. I presume you
Speaker 2: would be backing David chrisofully In on this adult crime
Speaker 2: adult time policy.
Speaker 13: Yeah, one percent. It is absolutely necessary now here in Queensland.
Speaker 13: The youth crime crisis across the state is totally out
Speaker 13: of control. It used to be a problem in Townsville
Speaker 13: and other regional centers. Now it is a problem in
Speaker 13: every suburb, in every corner of the state. It's reached
Speaker 13: plague proportions. And this is really the only step, one
Speaker 13: of several steps, but is I think a really important
Speaker 13: step to try to get a handle on it. And
Speaker 13: Queenslanders have just simply had enough and those sort of
Speaker 13: blame excuses from Stephen Miles trying to play politics for
Speaker 13: the matter, this is something of top concern to the
Speaker 13: households my electorate. They're sick of having to have the
Speaker 13: conversation about where they hide their keys each evening. They're
Speaker 13: sick of having to worry about, you know, installing the
Speaker 13: latest CCTV and security cameras in their home. It's reached
Speaker 13: the point where it is just ludicrous. And I really
Speaker 13: please the Chris of fully oppositions taking this big stand
Speaker 13: and are going to finally provide, you know, this sort
Speaker 13: of big stick approach. And I think it's actually a
Speaker 13: compassionate approach because if we nip this thing in the butt,
Speaker 13: we can actually give these kids an opportunity to do
Speaker 13: something else with their lives.
Speaker 2: It seems to me that crime is one of those issues,
Speaker 2: sort of like immigration, that really divides the elite from
Speaker 2: everybody else, and people who have ordinary, everyday concerns about
Speaker 2: these issues like crime, you know, they get sneered at
Speaker 2: by the labor types and the greenee types. Why is
Speaker 2: it then that parties like labor cannot bring themselves to say, hey,
Speaker 2: you know what, we acknowledge this is a problem that
Speaker 2: there's real concern we're going to do something, and instead
Speaker 2: we see this incredibly glib display from Steven Miles to say, oh, well,
Speaker 2: if you're concerned about crime, you know, suggesting almost that
Speaker 2: you're an out of touch idiot yogel.
Speaker 12: I mean, that's exactly right, and I think so much
Speaker 12: of well, the thing with these policies is you can
Speaker 12: always wheel out some sort of expert who's willing to
Speaker 12: say that, oh, adult crime, adult time. That's never going
Speaker 12: to work. A lot of the legal field has been
Speaker 12: taken over by woke academics who try to continually find
Speaker 12: and you know, flaws in the justice system. And actually
Speaker 12: detention is never the answer, and we can rehabilitate everybody,
Speaker 12: but you need to take a common sense approach. What
Speaker 12: is actually happening happening in Queensland at the moment, it's horrific.
Speaker 12: People do not deserve that they deserve to be protected
Speaker 12: in their communities. So I think it's at the point
Speaker 12: where you give everything a shot. And it seems like
Speaker 12: Chris Fooley is the only one bringing forward bold policies
Speaker 12: to tackle this very real issue.
Speaker 2: BINGO, now I want to us very quickly. We've got
Speaker 2: a minute left here talk about the miserable ghost. We
Speaker 2: should have a think back on the on the screen
Speaker 2: behind me, Malcolm Turbule. The fallout continues from his remarks
Speaker 2: about Peter Dutton calling him a thug on the project.
Speaker 2: Imagine going on the project? How relevant deprivation syndrome must
Speaker 2: you be suffering to go on the project anyway? Here's
Speaker 2: what so Peter van Ansler is written in The Daily
Speaker 2: Mail that Turble has not moved on. What did you make,
Speaker 2: Henry of Sorry of Malcolm Turnble's comments with Peter Dutton.
Speaker 13: I thought it was rather just sad and pathetic. Really,
Speaker 13: he's reached the point now where he's totally trashed any
Speaker 13: legacy that he had left. I think he'd be less
Speaker 13: frequent in bringing forth his opinion if he realized how
Speaker 13: little people actually cared about his opinion. And I wish
Speaker 13: he'd just going to mind his own business and get
Speaker 13: on with life. Let it leave us to get on
Speaker 13: with ours. It's really quite sad at this point.
Speaker 2: Absolutely couldn't say it better myself. I'm gonna have to
Speaker 2: leave it there, friar Leitch, Henry Pike, thanks so much
Speaker 2: for coming on. Now, stick around because I've got a
Speaker 2: big energy discussion to have. Labor's nuclear scare campaign has
Speaker 2: reached ahead and recent figures show nuclear costs aren't quite
Speaker 2: as high as the elbow Bob is making them out
Speaker 2: to be. You wouldn't imagine that, would you. South Australian
Speaker 2: Center David Fawcett is with me next to discuss more
Speaker 2: after the break. Welcome back to the pro James Borrow
Speaker 2: here sitting in for Paul Murray on Paul Murray Live.
Speaker 2: And it is the debate that has Anthony Almanezy and
Speaker 2: Peter Dunton at ten paces over the past few weeks,
Speaker 2: and that's the debate over nuclear power and its role
Speaker 2: in our energy mix. The Prime Minister has a course
Speaker 2: shot down Peter Dutton and the Liberals push for nuclear
Speaker 2: as being too expensive and even scary and dangerous, with
Speaker 2: some MPs going as far as posting ridiculous juvenile three
Speaker 2: eyed fish Simpsons memes. Now to talk about this and
Speaker 2: give us a bit more of a new perspective on
Speaker 2: this is South Australian Senator David Fawcett, who has been
Speaker 2: very vocal about some of the criticism aimed at nuclear energy. David,
Speaker 2: Welcome to the program. Thanks for coming on Palmurray Live.
Speaker 2: And let's start out with this simple question. Is the
Speaker 2: cost of nuclear energy as high as bad? As? Anthony
Speaker 2: alban Easy, Chris Bowen, Labor everybody else are trying to
Speaker 2: make it out to be.
Speaker 15: Well, I think you should let the facts speak from themselves.
Speaker 15: So here in South Australia, where we pay average about
Speaker 15: forty five cents per killer what hour, and where the
Speaker 15: state that in Australia leads the renewables transition. If you
Speaker 15: go and compare us to Canada on average, they pay
Speaker 15: sixteen cents per killer what hour and they get nearly
Speaker 15: sixty percent of their electricity from nuclear generation. So I
Speaker 15: think the question is not is nuclear more expensive or
Speaker 15: the most expensive? But the question should be is the
Speaker 15: renewables plan as cheap as the Albanese government is promising,
Speaker 15: or like Canada, should we be looking for an all
Speaker 15: of the above approach that has nuclear power generation for
Speaker 15: base load combined with things like hydro as well as
Speaker 15: some renewables.
Speaker 2: Well, that's right. And you know it's funny because just
Speaker 2: before I came on the pro here, I popped by
Speaker 2: the house and there was a letter from my power
Speaker 2: company saying oh, your rates are going up again. And
Speaker 2: I know what the opera killer one hour and now,
Speaker 2: but there's just up another another time again. And you
Speaker 2: were recently critical too of entergy visus Chris Bowen's gen
Speaker 2: calls support of the CSIRO's gen CASS report, Sorry, which
Speaker 2: was used to push this renewable energy over nuclear debate.
Speaker 2: What does and I want to just walk through this
Speaker 2: with you, what does Bowen and that report of the
Speaker 2: CSIRO get so wrong? Because the thing that I think
Speaker 2: about that is, let's put together by scientists, not economists.
Speaker 15: Yeah, so look, the key thing it gets wrong is
Speaker 15: when I speak to people in the community, they're concerned
Speaker 15: about the cost of electricity to them as a consumer,
Speaker 15: whether that's mum and dad at home, whether it's a
Speaker 15: small business or whether it's a power intensive industry, some
Speaker 15: of whom are looking at going offshore because of the
Speaker 15: rising price of power. Here, what cost calculates And they
Speaker 15: say this upfront in the report, is they cost that
Speaker 15: or they calculate In fact, the correct word is they
Speaker 15: model the cost to generate and store electricity. They don't
Speaker 15: cost the actual power to the consumer. And to do
Speaker 15: that you have to move beyond this simple measure what
Speaker 15: they call the levelized cost to look at the whole
Speaker 15: system cost, which includes all of your transmission, you're firming, etc.
Speaker 15: And on that basis, it's not measuring what it matters
Speaker 15: to the consumer, and more to the point, it is modeling.
Speaker 15: And these gen Costs report highlights that they have picked
Speaker 15: a model with a set of assumptions using an algorithm
Speaker 15: which is not transparent, and that's what they have based
Speaker 15: their whole argument on. But there are other expert bodies
Speaker 15: in the world that have different models with different assumptions,
Speaker 15: different algorithms that get different results which match the living
Speaker 15: experience of countries like Canada, and I think Australians should
Speaker 15: be seeking scrutiny as to why we can't have an open,
Speaker 15: fact based debate around how we do actually calculate what's
Speaker 15: in the nation's best interest.
Speaker 2: Well, ancet, you know, one of the things that strikes
Speaker 2: me is you see the algorithm is a black box,
Speaker 2: and I think that that's disgraceful when it comes to
Speaker 2: a transparent society. But also it makes assumptions like a
Speaker 2: nuclear power plant only lasts for thirty years when they
Speaker 2: last decades more, and don't take into the account. You
Speaker 2: know that solar panels have a ten to twenty year lifespan,
Speaker 2: that windmills save thing. You know, there's a lot of
Speaker 2: things that even I an untrained eye can see is
Speaker 2: wrong with this.
Speaker 15: Yeah, and the assumptions they make, for example, are that
Speaker 15: the station only lasts that long. But the lived experience
Speaker 15: in the States is that of the ninety two or
Speaker 15: so reactors in the States, nearly eighty eight have already
Speaker 15: had approval to extend their life from four years to
Speaker 15: sixty years, and quite a few of them are now
Speaker 15: in the process of even now seeking an extension to
Speaker 15: go from sixty to eighty years. So the lived experience
Speaker 15: is that that upfront capital cost amortized over such a
Speaker 15: long period is actually going to generate the cheapest form
Speaker 15: of long run electricity. And that's the conclusion of expert
Speaker 15: bodies such as the International Energy Agency and the OECD
Speaker 15: in a great report they put out in April of
Speaker 15: twenty twenty two which highlights the cheapest form of electricity
Speaker 15: is long run nuclear.
Speaker 2: Senator David Fassit fascinating stuff. We're going to have to
Speaker 2: leave it there. That's it for me tonight, but stay
Speaker 2: tuned for The Late Debate coming up next