WEBVTT - ‘ISIS brides’ and the Aussie kids stuck in Syria 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:04.600 You literally drive through a very very dry, desert like 0:00:05.040 --> 0:00:09.280 environment and then in a very incredibly isolated space, you 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:11.440 cross over some hills and there you see this camp 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:14.840 and it's tense, it's razor wire, it's security, it's a desert. 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:18.400 Senator David Shuebridge has just returned from a trip to 0:00:18.440 --> 0:00:22.560 northeast Syria. There, in a desert camp behind raiser wire, 0:00:22.680 --> 0:00:26.040 with thousands of other people lived twelve Australian women and 0:00:26.200 --> 0:00:29.960 twenty five Australian children. They are the wives and children 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:33.040 of men who went to Syria to join ISIS, with 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:36.080 Australia unwilling to help bring them home. They're living in 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:37.720 danger and in limbo. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:41.040 One of the Australian kids actually came to the meeting. 0:00:41.400 --> 0:00:44.360 She was just a little six year old and she 0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:49.120 was born in the camps. And what was pretty extraordinary was, 0:00:49.520 --> 0:00:52.559 I mean she spoke with a very broad Australian accent. 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:57.440 I could have been meeting with her in Burwood in Sydney, 0:00:58.040 --> 0:01:02.760 and she was there and drawing pictures, trying to sort 0:01:02.800 --> 0:01:05.040 of be a normal little kid, as normal as little 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:07.600 Australian kid as you could be. But of course her 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:11.440 entire life has been in a desert detention camp with 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:16.160 dusty streets and tents and insecurity, so we got to 0:01:16.160 --> 0:01:17.600 see some of that was pretty heartbreaking. 0:01:18.880 --> 0:01:21.680 The recent arrival of two women and four children who 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:24.480 smuggled themselves out of a Syrian camp and found their 0:01:24.520 --> 0:01:27.560 way back to Australia has sparked fresh debate over the 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:31.880 Australian government's obligations to Syria, to Australians worried about a 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:34.840 security threat, and to these women and children who are 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:41.720 Australian citizens. I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven 0:01:41.760 --> 0:01:46.720 AM today Green Senator David Shubridge on the Australian children 0:01:46.840 --> 0:01:50.640 trapped in Syrian camps and the politics of the so 0:01:50.760 --> 0:02:04.960 called ISIS brides. It's Thursday October sixteenth. Senator she Rich, 0:02:05.000 --> 0:02:06.400 thank you so much for coming on seven a m. 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:07.080 Welko into the show. 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:08.560 That's my pleasure. Good to be here. 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:11.359 You just got back from visiting Syria. Tell me why 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:11.679 you went. 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:15.320 Well. Obviously, there's very real concern, particularly over the Australian 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:19.840 children that are being held in really brutal desert detention 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.840 camps in northeast Syria, and trying to find some pathways 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:26.639 so that these kids can be brought home. I think 0:02:26.639 --> 0:02:31.359 it's an obligation that all elected representatives would hopefully take seriously. 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:34.440 And we had an opportunity to go and work with 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:37.840 the administration in Northeast Syria, to go and visit the 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:42.560 camps and speak to not just the administration but also 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:45.440 speak to the mums and one of the children. And 0:02:45.520 --> 0:02:48.360 I think it was for me, you know, it was 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:50.680 like one of those critical obligations you have. What higher 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:53.600 duty is there really as an elected representative than trying 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:55.040 to keep Australian kids safe. 0:02:55.520 --> 0:02:58.040 And so these women, what did they say to you 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:00.920 were their biggest fears and concern for their future and 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:02.120 for their children. Well. 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:06.200 Their concern is that the Australians who pretty much stick 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:09.640 together and are trying to look after themselves in this camp, 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:13.720 are feeling increasingly at risk inside the camp. There have 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:18.239 been some real political changes in Syria. A new regime 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:24.080 in Damascus HTS is seen to have had some quite 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:27.919 distinct links to what was once known as an al Qaeda. 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:32.000 They are in negotiations with the regime in North East 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:34.600 Syria to try and come up with a sort of 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:39.760 more federalist, pluralist society. But those negotiations are still on foot, 0:03:40.560 --> 0:03:43.360 and there are some people in the camps, and there's 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:45.760 about two and a half thousand people in the camp 0:03:45.760 --> 0:03:48.560 that I visit at El Roj. Many of them see 0:03:48.600 --> 0:03:52.240 the Australians as wanting to go home to Australia, not 0:03:52.360 --> 0:03:55.640 wanting to be part of some future more Islamic kind 0:03:55.680 --> 0:03:58.520 of regime in Syria. They see them very much as 0:03:59.040 --> 0:04:03.560 potentially traders, are not loyal to the cause, and therefore 0:04:03.560 --> 0:04:07.120 they're feeling incredibly isolated. They're feeling incredibly vulnerable, and the 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.120 kids are increasing the at risk. Something as simple as 0:04:10.160 --> 0:04:12.920 going to school and save the children have some very 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:17.560 rudimentary schools available to the kids. Those mums said that 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.080 their kids are at risk simply going to school because 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:23.200 they're identified as Australian, and it's well known the Australians 0:04:23.240 --> 0:04:25.800 want to come home and reintegrate into society, and they're 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:27.120 feeling increase in the at risk. 0:04:28.279 --> 0:04:30.760 And on the day that you cross the border into Syria, 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:34.280 the Australian government heightened its security advice on traveling there. 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:35.400 Do you know why that. 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:40.520 Was, well, I mean, that was a pretty extraordinary series 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:44.080 of developments. We'd obviously done the right thing. We'd given 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:47.040 DEFAT the Department Foreign Affairs and Trade, plenty of notice 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:50.560 of our visit, we'd given them out proposed itinery we'd 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:54.280 indicated we're happy to work with them. And while there 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:57.039 had been some meetings between my office and DEFACT, the 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.359 only questions they'd really asked in the entire time is 0:04:59.400 --> 0:05:01.800 are you going to meet with the Australian citizens? Are 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:04.800 you going to go to the camps? And we'd indicated 0:05:04.839 --> 0:05:07.600 that it was our intention to, but they otherwise showed 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:10.760 close to zero interest in where we are going and 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:14.360 what we were doing in north east Syria. But then, remarkably, 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:17.599 as you know, we flew from Sydney to Dubai, my 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:20.880 office got a whole bunch of messages from DEFAT asking 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:23.720 for us to urgently contact them because there have been 0:05:23.760 --> 0:05:27.960 some radical new evidence and some radical changes to the 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:32.719 Smart Travelers' warnings about traveling to Syria, so we should 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:35.799 absolutely not go to Northeast Syria. And they mentioned Northeast 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:39.680 Syria as a travel risk expressly in this advice that 0:05:39.720 --> 0:05:40.560 they just published. 0:05:41.400 --> 0:05:42.680 So what did you do? Well? 0:05:42.720 --> 0:05:45.479 Then, I said, well, you know, what's the security risk? 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:48.400 What is the new evidence? When they said, oh, we 0:05:48.440 --> 0:05:51.680 can't tell you. You haven't got security credits. And I said, well, 0:05:51.720 --> 0:05:53.680 I'm a member of Parliament and of course there's long 0:05:53.720 --> 0:05:57.680 standing protocols about members of Parliament not requiring security clearances. 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:00.200 But no, I was told that they couldn't tell me 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:02.520 what the evidence was. I said, well, can you tell 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:04.560 me if it applies to one of the regions we're going. 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:06.840 I couldn't tell you where it is. I can't tell 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:09.480 you what the advice is. It's all secret, secret, secret. 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:12.560 We then spoke to people on the ground. They said 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:16.480 there was no material change. We notwithstanding the advice from default, 0:06:16.520 --> 0:06:18.359 we crossed the border. I met with the officials and 0:06:18.400 --> 0:06:23.120 continued with our visit, and astoundingly, the day after we 0:06:23.160 --> 0:06:27.240 went in to northeast Syria. The day after, they changed 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:30.360 the advice back and reversed it. Yeah, I mean, make 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:31.280 of that what you will. 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:36.560 Interesting. So what about the people in the camp, these 0:06:36.560 --> 0:06:39.200 Australians in the camp you met, what contact have they 0:06:39.279 --> 0:06:40.200 had with DEFAUCT. 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:43.159 Well, they've had almost nothing since the end of twenty 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:45.200 twenty two. And you know, one of the things we 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:48.040 were doing was showing how you know, it is absolutely 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:52.120 possible to go and talk and engage and do it 0:06:52.160 --> 0:06:55.320 through the administration. But what they did say was that 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:59.000 in the lead up to about a dozen women and 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.320 children coming home the end of twenty twenty two from 0:07:01.360 --> 0:07:04.720 the camp, that they'd had a number of Australian officials 0:07:04.720 --> 0:07:07.920 in there, they'd had security assessments been done, they'd had 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:11.920 the biometrics been done, that had the paperwork being done. 0:07:12.000 --> 0:07:16.920 Everything been done that's necessary to issue passports and to 0:07:17.040 --> 0:07:21.200 provide you know, the necessary security clearances and advice to 0:07:21.280 --> 0:07:23.840 get everyone home at the end of twenty twenty two. 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:26.920 And it's my understanding that process had been ongoing for 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:30.960 quite a time before that, and probably included some work 0:07:31.000 --> 0:07:34.520 with then Morrison government and then the Albanese government. But 0:07:34.800 --> 0:07:38.400 you know, they'd said everything had been done necessary for 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.559 those Australian kids to get their passports and their mums 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:45.440 to come with them. And while some kids and their 0:07:45.480 --> 0:07:47.480 mums came home at the end of twenty twenty two, 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:51.360 there's been nothing else like And they've had radio silence 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:53.640 from the Australian government since the end of twenty twenty two. 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:56.600 And you know, obviously that's years and years now, and 0:07:56.640 --> 0:07:57.600 it's very disturbing. 0:07:59.120 --> 0:08:00.920 Why do you think that is that they haven't been 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:02.360 in touch for three years? 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:05.320 Well, I mean you should have seen the politics that 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:08.120 happened in the Federal Parliament in the last couple of 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:10.720 you know, last month or so about this whole thing. 0:08:11.200 --> 0:08:14.120 This is all, you know, some pretty ugly politics from 0:08:14.160 --> 0:08:18.080 the coalition about isis brides, a real lack of courage 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:22.000 from the Albanese government to respond and talk about the 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:24.880 need to look after Australian kids, and that politics has 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:27.680 been pretty toxic. And you know, it looks to me 0:08:27.960 --> 0:08:30.760 like we have a government who is so scared of 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:33.760 a you know, a right wing attack campaign from the 0:08:33.760 --> 0:08:37.920 coalition that they're not doing what they should do and 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:41.000 keeping Australian kids safe. 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:44.920 Coming up, more women and children are expected to come home. 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:53.720 So what will happen when they get here? How many 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:55.520 isis brides are currently in Australia. 0:08:55.920 --> 0:09:03.359 In September this year, a group of six individuals returned 0:09:03.480 --> 0:09:09.120 to Australia without repatriation assistance that comprised two women and 0:09:09.200 --> 0:09:09.880 four children. 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.120 Senator It came out in Senate estimates last week that 0:09:13.160 --> 0:09:16.319 there were two women and four children who had come 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:19.960 back from Syria what did you make after that news 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:23.760 broke of the way that group has been characterized, both 0:09:23.880 --> 0:09:25.440 in the media and in Parliament. 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:27.560 Well, what I thought was astounding about all of that 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:31.119 was the kids were almost invisible in all of that discussion. 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:35.080 Isis brides, Islamic state women and their offspring, all of 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:39.240 which were born overseas, have managed to smuggle themselves out 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:41.520 of Syria and quietly returned to It was all about 0:09:41.520 --> 0:09:44.320 isis Bride's isis bride's isis brides? Will the government be 0:09:44.360 --> 0:09:47.320 honest this time and tell these shown people how many 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:50.760 more isis brides will return, when they will arrive and 0:09:50.880 --> 0:09:53.440 where they will live. But there were four Australian kids 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:58.959 who have finally found a pathway to safety. And instead 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:01.560 of doing what I think the nation should have been doing, 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:04.600 which was focusing on how to reintegrate those kids safely 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:07.240 into society, how to deal with the trauma that they've 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:11.000 obviously been through being caught in a brutal desert detention 0:10:11.200 --> 0:10:14.160 camp for years, and talking about what structures are needed 0:10:14.160 --> 0:10:15.839 in place to be put in place to keep those 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:20.720 kids safe. We had a really toxic discussion about isis brides. Now, 0:10:21.360 --> 0:10:24.720 when you go to Syria and you talk to people 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:28.680 on the ground. People are horrified by the crimes of 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:31.360 Daish and Isis. They're horrified by what happened. I went 0:10:31.400 --> 0:10:33.240 down to Raka and some of the crimes down there 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:37.319 were horrific and they all support, you know, the people 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.240 I spoke to support their being processes. So if people 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:43.480 have committed crimes, they're held to account, but they also 0:10:43.520 --> 0:10:46.160 recognize that there are so many thousands and thousands of 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:49.800 innocent victims of these crimes, and that they point to 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.880 the kids as the most obvious examples of innocent victims 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:57.280 of the horrors that happened in Syria. So surely Australia 0:10:57.320 --> 0:10:58.120 can get this right. 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.920 These children and women a security threat. What is the 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:09.360 evidence from other countries that have repatriated people home from Syria. 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:13.360 Well, our understanding is that AZO did a full assessment 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:15.679 at the end of twenty twenty two and said there 0:11:15.760 --> 0:11:19.680 was no security impediment to bringing any of these women 0:11:19.760 --> 0:11:22.800 and kids home. But I have a lot of faith 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:25.760 in our security agencies that they will be able to 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:28.640 identify risk and if there is a risk, come up 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.720 with ways to mitigate and deal with that risk. 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:35.079 And it does now seem that there will be more 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:38.680 women and children at least that the AFP is expecting 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:41.839 to come back. The Asistan Commissioners even not. He said 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:45.080 that preparations were being made for more arrivals. 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:49.319 So is the AFP making any arrangements for the arrival. 0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:51.040 Of any additional members, are you, senator? 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:51.760 Yes? 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:57.640 Yes? So do we know how the government is now 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:00.000 acting on this? Do you know anything about those arrangements? 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:02.600 Well, I mean, how do we want this to work? 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:07.920 Do we want to have a planned, thought out, security 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:14.960 and conscious process for reintegrating these kids and their mums 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:17.720 back in society and do it properly and do it 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:19.440 in the way that he's going to have the greatest 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.880 likelihood of ensuring that these kids can be properly settled 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:26.200 and have productive lives here. Or do we want to 0:12:26.240 --> 0:12:30.480 just keep waiting for haphazard escapes out of these camps, 0:12:30.800 --> 0:12:35.040 people smuggling themselves across an incredibly dangerous countryside and coming 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.600 in ad hoc without any of those controls. That's the 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:42.040 choice really the Albanezi government has, and you know, I 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:45.480 think to their shame, they've said, oh well, they'll just 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:49.240 deal with an ad hoc unplanned irregular return to Australia 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:52.800 because they don't have the political courage to say, actually, 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:55.600 we're going to do this properly. We're going to look 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:58.440 after Australia's security concerns, we're going to look after the kids, 0:12:58.440 --> 0:12:59.800 we're going to look after their mums, and we're going 0:12:59.840 --> 0:13:02.520 to have a plan for how to make this work. 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.600 And you know, this is a classic case of where 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:13.040 the toxic politics on immigration and multiculturalism is meaning nobody's 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:15.520 a winner at the end of the day. I mean, 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:18.480 this is not a complex moral dilemma. It's a pretty 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:21.960 straightforward moral dilemma that's been put through a pretty cooked 0:13:22.080 --> 0:13:24.440 political lens by both the Coalition and Labor. 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:28.319 Senator David Shibridge. Thank you so much for your time. 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:29.760 Pleasure, Ruby Good speaking. 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:39.040 Also in the news, more Indigenous people are dying in 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:42.280 custody in New South Wales than ever before, according to 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:45.720 the state coroner. So far this year, twelve Indigenous people 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.959 died in corrective services custody, while four died in police operations. 0:13:50.520 --> 0:13:53.840 New South Wales State Coroner Theresa O'Sullivan pointed to soaring 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.480 original incarceration rates as a key reason and said each 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:03.080 death deserves scrutiny and accountability, and the US State Department 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:05.880 has revoked the visas of six foreigners for comments they 0:14:05.920 --> 0:14:09.240 made about Charlie Kirk on social media. In a statement, 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:12.000 the Department said they would continue to identify people who 0:14:12.080 --> 0:14:15.720 celebrated the right wing activists assassination, and that the US 0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:19.920 has no obligation to host foreigners with those views. I'm 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:22.520 Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.