Speaker 1: You literally drive through a very very dry, desert like
Speaker 1: environment and then in a very incredibly isolated space, you
Speaker 1: cross over some hills and there you see this camp
Speaker 1: and it's tense, it's razor wire, it's security, it's a desert.
Speaker 2: Senator David Shuebridge has just returned from a trip to
Speaker 2: northeast Syria. There, in a desert camp behind raiser wire,
Speaker 2: with thousands of other people lived twelve Australian women and
Speaker 2: twenty five Australian children. They are the wives and children
Speaker 2: of men who went to Syria to join ISIS, with
Speaker 2: Australia unwilling to help bring them home. They're living in
Speaker 2: danger and in limbo.
Speaker 1: One of the Australian kids actually came to the meeting.
Speaker 1: She was just a little six year old and she
Speaker 1: was born in the camps. And what was pretty extraordinary was,
Speaker 1: I mean she spoke with a very broad Australian accent.
Speaker 1: I could have been meeting with her in Burwood in Sydney,
Speaker 1: and she was there and drawing pictures, trying to sort
Speaker 1: of be a normal little kid, as normal as little
Speaker 1: Australian kid as you could be. But of course her
Speaker 1: entire life has been in a desert detention camp with
Speaker 1: dusty streets and tents and insecurity, so we got to
Speaker 1: see some of that was pretty heartbreaking.
Speaker 2: The recent arrival of two women and four children who
Speaker 2: smuggled themselves out of a Syrian camp and found their
Speaker 2: way back to Australia has sparked fresh debate over the
Speaker 2: Australian government's obligations to Syria, to Australians worried about a
Speaker 2: security threat, and to these women and children who are
Speaker 2: Australian citizens. I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to seven
Speaker 2: AM today Green Senator David Shubridge on the Australian children
Speaker 2: trapped in Syrian camps and the politics of the so
Speaker 2: called ISIS brides. It's Thursday October sixteenth. Senator she Rich,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for coming on seven a m.
Speaker 2: Welko into the show.
Speaker 1: That's my pleasure. Good to be here.
Speaker 2: You just got back from visiting Syria. Tell me why
Speaker 2: you went.
Speaker 1: Well. Obviously, there's very real concern, particularly over the Australian
Speaker 1: children that are being held in really brutal desert detention
Speaker 1: camps in northeast Syria, and trying to find some pathways
Speaker 1: so that these kids can be brought home. I think
Speaker 1: it's an obligation that all elected representatives would hopefully take seriously.
Speaker 1: And we had an opportunity to go and work with
Speaker 1: the administration in Northeast Syria, to go and visit the
Speaker 1: camps and speak to not just the administration but also
Speaker 1: speak to the mums and one of the children. And
Speaker 1: I think it was for me, you know, it was
Speaker 1: like one of those critical obligations you have. What higher
Speaker 1: duty is there really as an elected representative than trying
Speaker 1: to keep Australian kids safe.
Speaker 2: And so these women, what did they say to you
Speaker 2: were their biggest fears and concern for their future and
Speaker 2: for their children. Well.
Speaker 1: Their concern is that the Australians who pretty much stick
Speaker 1: together and are trying to look after themselves in this camp,
Speaker 1: are feeling increasingly at risk inside the camp. There have
Speaker 1: been some real political changes in Syria. A new regime
Speaker 1: in Damascus HTS is seen to have had some quite
Speaker 1: distinct links to what was once known as an al Qaeda.
Speaker 1: They are in negotiations with the regime in North East
Speaker 1: Syria to try and come up with a sort of
Speaker 1: more federalist, pluralist society. But those negotiations are still on foot,
Speaker 1: and there are some people in the camps, and there's
Speaker 1: about two and a half thousand people in the camp
Speaker 1: that I visit at El Roj. Many of them see
Speaker 1: the Australians as wanting to go home to Australia, not
Speaker 1: wanting to be part of some future more Islamic kind
Speaker 1: of regime in Syria. They see them very much as
Speaker 1: potentially traders, are not loyal to the cause, and therefore
Speaker 1: they're feeling incredibly isolated. They're feeling incredibly vulnerable, and the
Speaker 1: kids are increasing the at risk. Something as simple as
Speaker 1: going to school and save the children have some very
Speaker 1: rudimentary schools available to the kids. Those mums said that
Speaker 1: their kids are at risk simply going to school because
Speaker 1: they're identified as Australian, and it's well known the Australians
Speaker 1: want to come home and reintegrate into society, and they're
Speaker 1: feeling increase in the at risk.
Speaker 2: And on the day that you cross the border into Syria,
Speaker 2: the Australian government heightened its security advice on traveling there.
Speaker 2: Do you know why that.
Speaker 1: Was, well, I mean, that was a pretty extraordinary series
Speaker 1: of developments. We'd obviously done the right thing. We'd given
Speaker 1: DEFAT the Department Foreign Affairs and Trade, plenty of notice
Speaker 1: of our visit, we'd given them out proposed itinery we'd
Speaker 1: indicated we're happy to work with them. And while there
Speaker 1: had been some meetings between my office and DEFACT, the
Speaker 1: only questions they'd really asked in the entire time is
Speaker 1: are you going to meet with the Australian citizens? Are
Speaker 1: you going to go to the camps? And we'd indicated
Speaker 1: that it was our intention to, but they otherwise showed
Speaker 1: close to zero interest in where we are going and
Speaker 1: what we were doing in north east Syria. But then, remarkably,
Speaker 1: as you know, we flew from Sydney to Dubai, my
Speaker 1: office got a whole bunch of messages from DEFAT asking
Speaker 1: for us to urgently contact them because there have been
Speaker 1: some radical new evidence and some radical changes to the
Speaker 1: Smart Travelers' warnings about traveling to Syria, so we should
Speaker 1: absolutely not go to Northeast Syria. And they mentioned Northeast
Speaker 1: Syria as a travel risk expressly in this advice that
Speaker 1: they just published.
Speaker 2: So what did you do? Well?
Speaker 1: Then, I said, well, you know, what's the security risk?
Speaker 1: What is the new evidence? When they said, oh, we
Speaker 1: can't tell you. You haven't got security credits. And I said, well,
Speaker 1: I'm a member of Parliament and of course there's long
Speaker 1: standing protocols about members of Parliament not requiring security clearances.
Speaker 1: But no, I was told that they couldn't tell me
Speaker 1: what the evidence was. I said, well, can you tell
Speaker 1: me if it applies to one of the regions we're going.
Speaker 1: I couldn't tell you where it is. I can't tell
Speaker 1: you what the advice is. It's all secret, secret, secret.
Speaker 1: We then spoke to people on the ground. They said
Speaker 1: there was no material change. We notwithstanding the advice from default,
Speaker 1: we crossed the border. I met with the officials and
Speaker 1: continued with our visit, and astoundingly, the day after we
Speaker 1: went in to northeast Syria. The day after, they changed
Speaker 1: the advice back and reversed it. Yeah, I mean, make
Speaker 1: of that what you will.
Speaker 2: Interesting. So what about the people in the camp, these
Speaker 2: Australians in the camp you met, what contact have they
Speaker 2: had with DEFAUCT.
Speaker 1: Well, they've had almost nothing since the end of twenty
Speaker 1: twenty two. And you know, one of the things we
Speaker 1: were doing was showing how you know, it is absolutely
Speaker 1: possible to go and talk and engage and do it
Speaker 1: through the administration. But what they did say was that
Speaker 1: in the lead up to about a dozen women and
Speaker 1: children coming home the end of twenty twenty two from
Speaker 1: the camp, that they'd had a number of Australian officials
Speaker 1: in there, they'd had security assessments been done, they'd had
Speaker 1: the biometrics been done, that had the paperwork being done.
Speaker 1: Everything been done that's necessary to issue passports and to
Speaker 1: provide you know, the necessary security clearances and advice to
Speaker 1: get everyone home at the end of twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1: And it's my understanding that process had been ongoing for
Speaker 1: quite a time before that, and probably included some work
Speaker 1: with then Morrison government and then the Albanese government. But
Speaker 1: you know, they'd said everything had been done necessary for
Speaker 1: those Australian kids to get their passports and their mums
Speaker 1: to come with them. And while some kids and their
Speaker 1: mums came home at the end of twenty twenty two,
Speaker 1: there's been nothing else like And they've had radio silence
Speaker 1: from the Australian government since the end of twenty twenty two.
Speaker 1: And you know, obviously that's years and years now, and
Speaker 1: it's very disturbing.
Speaker 2: Why do you think that is that they haven't been
Speaker 2: in touch for three years?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean you should have seen the politics that
Speaker 1: happened in the Federal Parliament in the last couple of
Speaker 1: you know, last month or so about this whole thing.
Speaker 1: This is all, you know, some pretty ugly politics from
Speaker 1: the coalition about isis brides, a real lack of courage
Speaker 1: from the Albanese government to respond and talk about the
Speaker 1: need to look after Australian kids, and that politics has
Speaker 1: been pretty toxic. And you know, it looks to me
Speaker 1: like we have a government who is so scared of
Speaker 1: a you know, a right wing attack campaign from the
Speaker 1: coalition that they're not doing what they should do and
Speaker 1: keeping Australian kids safe.
Speaker 2: Coming up, more women and children are expected to come home.
Speaker 2: So what will happen when they get here? How many
Speaker 2: isis brides are currently in Australia.
Speaker 3: In September this year, a group of six individuals returned
Speaker 3: to Australia without repatriation assistance that comprised two women and
Speaker 3: four children.
Speaker 2: Senator It came out in Senate estimates last week that
Speaker 2: there were two women and four children who had come
Speaker 2: back from Syria what did you make after that news
Speaker 2: broke of the way that group has been characterized, both
Speaker 2: in the media and in Parliament.
Speaker 1: Well, what I thought was astounding about all of that
Speaker 1: was the kids were almost invisible in all of that discussion.
Speaker 1: Isis brides, Islamic state women and their offspring, all of
Speaker 1: which were born overseas, have managed to smuggle themselves out
Speaker 1: of Syria and quietly returned to It was all about
Speaker 1: isis Bride's isis bride's isis brides? Will the government be
Speaker 1: honest this time and tell these shown people how many
Speaker 1: more isis brides will return, when they will arrive and
Speaker 1: where they will live. But there were four Australian kids
Speaker 1: who have finally found a pathway to safety. And instead
Speaker 1: of doing what I think the nation should have been doing,
Speaker 1: which was focusing on how to reintegrate those kids safely
Speaker 1: into society, how to deal with the trauma that they've
Speaker 1: obviously been through being caught in a brutal desert detention
Speaker 1: camp for years, and talking about what structures are needed
Speaker 1: in place to be put in place to keep those
Speaker 1: kids safe. We had a really toxic discussion about isis brides. Now,
Speaker 1: when you go to Syria and you talk to people
Speaker 1: on the ground. People are horrified by the crimes of
Speaker 1: Daish and Isis. They're horrified by what happened. I went
Speaker 1: down to Raka and some of the crimes down there
Speaker 1: were horrific and they all support, you know, the people
Speaker 1: I spoke to support their being processes. So if people
Speaker 1: have committed crimes, they're held to account, but they also
Speaker 1: recognize that there are so many thousands and thousands of
Speaker 1: innocent victims of these crimes, and that they point to
Speaker 1: the kids as the most obvious examples of innocent victims
Speaker 1: of the horrors that happened in Syria. So surely Australia
Speaker 1: can get this right.
Speaker 2: These children and women a security threat. What is the
Speaker 2: evidence from other countries that have repatriated people home from Syria.
Speaker 1: Well, our understanding is that AZO did a full assessment
Speaker 1: at the end of twenty twenty two and said there
Speaker 1: was no security impediment to bringing any of these women
Speaker 1: and kids home. But I have a lot of faith
Speaker 1: in our security agencies that they will be able to
Speaker 1: identify risk and if there is a risk, come up
Speaker 1: with ways to mitigate and deal with that risk.
Speaker 2: And it does now seem that there will be more
Speaker 2: women and children at least that the AFP is expecting
Speaker 2: to come back. The Asistan Commissioners even not. He said
Speaker 2: that preparations were being made for more arrivals.
Speaker 3: So is the AFP making any arrangements for the arrival.
Speaker 1: Of any additional members, are you, senator?
Speaker 3: Yes?
Speaker 2: Yes? So do we know how the government is now
Speaker 2: acting on this? Do you know anything about those arrangements?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, how do we want this to work?
Speaker 1: Do we want to have a planned, thought out, security
Speaker 1: and conscious process for reintegrating these kids and their mums
Speaker 1: back in society and do it properly and do it
Speaker 1: in the way that he's going to have the greatest
Speaker 1: likelihood of ensuring that these kids can be properly settled
Speaker 1: and have productive lives here. Or do we want to
Speaker 1: just keep waiting for haphazard escapes out of these camps,
Speaker 1: people smuggling themselves across an incredibly dangerous countryside and coming
Speaker 1: in ad hoc without any of those controls. That's the
Speaker 1: choice really the Albanezi government has, and you know, I
Speaker 1: think to their shame, they've said, oh well, they'll just
Speaker 1: deal with an ad hoc unplanned irregular return to Australia
Speaker 1: because they don't have the political courage to say, actually,
Speaker 1: we're going to do this properly. We're going to look
Speaker 1: after Australia's security concerns, we're going to look after the kids,
Speaker 1: we're going to look after their mums, and we're going
Speaker 1: to have a plan for how to make this work.
Speaker 1: And you know, this is a classic case of where
Speaker 1: the toxic politics on immigration and multiculturalism is meaning nobody's
Speaker 1: a winner at the end of the day. I mean,
Speaker 1: this is not a complex moral dilemma. It's a pretty
Speaker 1: straightforward moral dilemma that's been put through a pretty cooked
Speaker 1: political lens by both the Coalition and Labor.
Speaker 2: Senator David Shibridge. Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 1: Pleasure, Ruby Good speaking.
Speaker 2: Also in the news, more Indigenous people are dying in
Speaker 2: custody in New South Wales than ever before, according to
Speaker 2: the state coroner. So far this year, twelve Indigenous people
Speaker 2: died in corrective services custody, while four died in police operations.
Speaker 2: New South Wales State Coroner Theresa O'Sullivan pointed to soaring
Speaker 2: original incarceration rates as a key reason and said each
Speaker 2: death deserves scrutiny and accountability, and the US State Department
Speaker 2: has revoked the visas of six foreigners for comments they
Speaker 2: made about Charlie Kirk on social media. In a statement,
Speaker 2: the Department said they would continue to identify people who
Speaker 2: celebrated the right wing activists assassination, and that the US
Speaker 2: has no obligation to host foreigners with those views. I'm
Speaker 2: Ruby Jones. This is seven am. Thanks for listening.