Speaker 1: I got a team, Craig, Anthony Harper, doctor Bill Sullivan,
Speaker 1: doctor Tiffany, and Cook over there at typ Central. Imagine
Speaker 1: if you did a PhD. Have you ever thought about
Speaker 1: you ever thought about going to UNI? And you're I
Speaker 1: mean you're still young, You're only forty one or something.
Speaker 1: Have you ever thought about going to UNI? No?
Speaker 2: I haven't. But as life goes on and I get
Speaker 2: more and more interested in the process of just learning
Speaker 2: in different areas, when things really capture my attention, I
Speaker 2: have half a second glimmer of thought. But then I
Speaker 2: remember all of the stories I hear about you and
Speaker 2: the process of it, and I don't think that it
Speaker 2: is my jam.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean you do need to have a
Speaker 1: specific I think. Well, but anyone can learn. You just
Speaker 1: need to figure out your way to learn. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know, when people say, let's say a like to
Speaker 1: doctor Bill, Hi, doctor Bill, Hello, Craig, Hello tiff Not
Speaker 1: that you would know anything about research or study or
Speaker 1: academia or university. No, not that you would. But like
Speaker 1: if you feel compelled or you think you got something
Speaker 1: to add, you know, jump in. But I forget somebody said,
Speaker 1: there's this protocol, doctor Bill probably knows, And I think
Speaker 1: it was like it was either twenty or twenty five
Speaker 1: minutes of like hard study and then five minutes where
Speaker 1: you which this is not a very complicated protocol, five
Speaker 1: minutes of whatever you know, go away, do some push ups,
Speaker 1: have a wee, you get a drink, sit under a tree,
Speaker 1: then come back. Right when I started, my protocol was
Speaker 1: five minutes of that and then twenty five minutes of
Speaker 1: sitting under a tree. Or my inability to be able
Speaker 1: to read research and actually stay present, My inability was
Speaker 1: world class. Like having said that, if I am reading
Speaker 1: something that I'm excited about or fascinated with, right, which
Speaker 1: sounds bad, I should be fascinated with my research. But
Speaker 1: doctor Bill will tell you like reading academic journe and
Speaker 1: you know it's But it took me quite a while,
Speaker 1: but I still think I'm probably about twenty ten. I
Speaker 1: was five twenty five, but I'm about twenty ten. What
Speaker 1: about you, doc, did you when you were an undergrad
Speaker 1: and then a post grad student and even now, like,
Speaker 1: do you have a particular protocol that works in terms
Speaker 1: of optimal focus and attention? Yeah?
Speaker 3: I think it varies even within your singular discipline there
Speaker 3: are certain pockets of knowledge that you're just more innately
Speaker 3: stimulated by. You know, you just can't get enough of
Speaker 3: learning about X. Yes, HY is also interesting, but maybe
Speaker 3: not so much so. I think I was kind of
Speaker 3: lucky in a way. Like during my PhD, I remember
Speaker 3: enjoying the topic so much that it was difficult for
Speaker 3: me to take a break. Okay, it was difficult to
Speaker 3: convince me to go on a VACA. I just and
Speaker 3: that's not necessarily because I was a work a whole, like,
Speaker 3: It's just because I've sincerely enjoyed doing what I was doing.
Speaker 3: So that's what I usually tell the students who come
Speaker 3: through my lab or through through our department that listen,
Speaker 3: you got to love this or the PhD is going
Speaker 3: to be absolute torture for you.
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I love. I love my area of research.
Speaker 1: It just like some of the like like when I
Speaker 1: started writing my lit reviews. So it's systematic literature review
Speaker 1: looking at it essentially the way that metaaccuracy, which my
Speaker 1: area of focus has been measured and is measured across
Speaker 1: different you know, disciplines and so on. But I started
Speaker 1: with eleven hundred papers. As you know, when you whittle
Speaker 1: it down and then and think about that tif I
Speaker 1: don't know, on average, let's say papers twenty pages, so
Speaker 1: I think about that. Then you've got to you know,
Speaker 1: and you don't have to read the entirety of every paper,
Speaker 1: but you can't just glimpse over it. And then that
Speaker 1: one hundred and that eleven hundred pages paper's got whittled
Speaker 1: down to one hundred and ten, which is a very
Speaker 1: interesting correlation, but that's what it ended up. And one
Speaker 1: hundred and ten papers then became a table in my review,
Speaker 1: a massive table. But just staying focused to go is
Speaker 1: this is this paper relevant? Is it not? And then
Speaker 1: you look up and you go, by the way, I've
Speaker 1: got six hundred and third and to go. It's hard
Speaker 1: to stay excited in that it's.
Speaker 3: A demoralizing yeah, and it can be repetitive. So and
Speaker 3: you know, you see this a lot with you know,
Speaker 3: masters and PhD students. I think a lot of them
Speaker 3: come into the program really excited and then they get
Speaker 3: to see how that sausage is made and it's a
Speaker 3: lot more difficult cult than they ever imagined. So I'm
Speaker 3: not saying you can't do it, but if you love
Speaker 3: the topic, yes you're going to have a much easier time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, one hundred percent. And I think for me, like
Speaker 1: what made what makes it not easier, but what makes
Speaker 1: it more I guess enjoyable, and like where it's it's
Speaker 1: worth it for me is because because I work, you know,
Speaker 1: with teams and athletes and corporates and organizations where I'm
Speaker 1: literally in front of groups talking all the time about
Speaker 1: this kind of social intelligence and social awareness that's called
Speaker 1: matter accuracy and why that matters and how it impacts
Speaker 1: everything from building rapport and connection and trust to leadership
Speaker 1: and teamwork and synergy and culture. And I can kind
Speaker 1: of bring my real world experience and observation into alignment
Speaker 1: with my research and bring and have this kind of
Speaker 1: synergy of academia and real world learning and real world
Speaker 1: kind of experience. And then I think the challenge for
Speaker 1: me is and for a lot of academics I reckon
Speaker 1: who get in front of non academic groups, is how
Speaker 1: do I share my stuff, my thoughts and ideas and
Speaker 1: knowledge in a way which not only is understandable but
Speaker 1: also is valuable, like where people one they understand it,
Speaker 1: and two they can operationalize it to help them without
Speaker 1: bamboozling them with graphs and charts and data and bullshit,
Speaker 1: but just but still get the truth in inverted commas
Speaker 1: across to them.
Speaker 3: You know, that's a real challenge, and I think it's
Speaker 3: pretty universally understood that in order to earn a PhD,
Speaker 3: you have to make some sort of original contribution, now
Speaker 3: a brand new discovery, if you will. That contribut it's
Speaker 3: something new to the field that hasn't been previously appreciated
Speaker 3: or known, and that's that's really challenging. You know, there's
Speaker 3: a great deal of information out there already, and I
Speaker 3: think it's pretty consistent across disciplines. Whatever you get into,
Speaker 3: you really need to start doing a deep dive into
Speaker 3: everything in order to find those undiscovered nuggets of knowledge.
Speaker 3: And like you're describing, you have to be so well read.
Speaker 3: I mean, you basically have to become an expert, you know,
Speaker 3: one of the one of the most knowledgeable people in
Speaker 3: the world on your topic of choice, so that you
Speaker 3: can contribute something new because you don't want to rediscover
Speaker 3: the wheel. That's the last thing you want to spend
Speaker 3: your time doing. Uh So, yeah, that's the inherent challenge
Speaker 3: and a PhD. But what a reward, right, I mean,
Speaker 3: at the end of the process, if you're awarded that PhD,
Speaker 3: that really underscores the value of how you invested your time.
Speaker 3: You contributed something new to humanity's body of knowledge, and
Speaker 3: that's really hard to put a praise on. And that's
Speaker 3: why I admire anyone who has gone through this process
Speaker 3: and gotten a PhD, because that tells me that other
Speaker 3: experts agree they've contributed something really impactful to their field.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And it's what's interesting is, you know, my
Speaker 1: field is psychology, right, But it's funny you come out
Speaker 1: with a doctorate or a PhD in psychology, but if
Speaker 1: psychology is the ocean, I'm studying a drop of water
Speaker 1: in that ocean, you know what I mean. It's like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, people go, oh, so you'll be a doctor
Speaker 1: of psychology and I go, technically yes, And they're like,
Speaker 1: so you're like a psychologist.
Speaker 3: Nor lie down on the couch and start telling you
Speaker 3: about my childhood.
Speaker 1: Traumas and yeah, but if you want to know anything
Speaker 1: about metapception or meta accuracy, then I'm guy. But other
Speaker 1: than that, you know, probably keep your childhood trauma to yourself.
Speaker 4: But yeah, it is it is it's it's incredibly specific
Speaker 4: and nuanced and trying to explain to people that, you know,
Speaker 4: here's this here's this beach of sand, and I'm oversee
Speaker 4: that grain of sand over there.
Speaker 1: On this beach. That's what I'm researching five years and Toddy,
Speaker 1: and like you said, when I'm finished, I will be
Speaker 1: one of the experts in the world until about next
Speaker 1: Tuesday when I get overrun.
Speaker 3: And when you produce your PhD thesis, there's probably only
Speaker 3: two or three people who actually want to read the
Speaker 3: thing because it gets so specific and so nuanced.
Speaker 1: Oh you know, we've we've churned out over one hundred
Speaker 1: papers from my laboratory right brand new research revolving around
Speaker 1: this parasite called toxic plasma.
Speaker 3: And the I could probably add up all the people
Speaker 3: who read all one hundred of those papers, and it
Speaker 3: would still be dwarfed by the number of people who
Speaker 3: might have read a popular article that I've written about it.
Speaker 3: You know, that would be toward the toward a general audience.
Speaker 3: So yeah, it's pretty crazy to think about it how
Speaker 3: specific things can get. But what we do have to
Speaker 3: keep in mind is, no matter how small the part
Speaker 3: of the puzzle is, that we investigate. You can't complete
Speaker 3: the puddle without that piece. So this is something I
Speaker 3: tell all my students all the time if they start
Speaker 3: to get discouraged, no matter how small that puzzle piece
Speaker 3: might seem to you, it is worth, you know, mapping
Speaker 3: it out, because the puzzle can't be completed without it,
Speaker 3: and you will be the person puts that piece into place.
Speaker 1: So don't ever forget that. A friend of mine the
Speaker 1: day said to me a guy I grew up with,
Speaker 1: who great guy? He said, oh, when you finished, like
Speaker 1: we're chatting, He's like, what are you working on today?
Speaker 1: I said, I'm just working on my you know, one
Speaker 1: of my papers. It's systematic literature review. What's that? And
Speaker 1: I told him and he goes, oh wow. He goes,
Speaker 1: can I read it? Like when you finished? Can I
Speaker 1: read it? And I go, she don't want to read it?
Speaker 1: And he goes, no, I really want to read it.
Speaker 1: I go, here's a better idea. Let's spend ten minutes
Speaker 1: or five minutes, and I will tell you what it's
Speaker 1: about and you'll understand that and you'll be mildly interested.
Speaker 1: And then I read him the abstract right, and he's like, nah,
Speaker 1: I want to read it. I read in the abstract
Speaker 1: of my paper. He's like, nah, no, I get it
Speaker 1: all right, I did really yeah, yeah no. So what
Speaker 1: about when you do do you ever do corporate stuff, doc, Like,
Speaker 1: do you get in front of non academic audiences you
Speaker 1: mean like corporate speaking and stuff?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like what talking to Yeah, whether or not
Speaker 1: it's at corporate conferences or workshops or seminars. Do that
Speaker 1: stuff as well? Well?
Speaker 3: We certainly do a lot of like presentations at scientific meetings,
Speaker 3: and these are these vary on the topic. So most
Speaker 3: of the meetings we go to are microbiology and nature
Speaker 3: because we study a parasite, so we go to infectious
Speaker 3: disease meetings microbiology meetings. But some of the aspects of
Speaker 3: the parasite that we study, some of the particulars of
Speaker 3: its biology, will take us to meetings from different disciplines. Yeah,
Speaker 3: we don't go to too many, like pharmaceutical companies because
Speaker 3: they I don't really know if that's like a platform
Speaker 3: that they offer. But I certainly run into colleagues who
Speaker 3: work in industry at the various scientific meetings that I
Speaker 3: told you about.
Speaker 1: So one of the things which is probably you know,
Speaker 1: well it's not. Probably it's my main job in inverted
Speaker 1: commas is is corporate speaking. But I will talk at
Speaker 1: everything from real estate conferences to banking conferences, to medical conferences,
Speaker 1: to blokes in prison, to you know, cricket clubs and
Speaker 1: football clubs and elite athletes, but speaking broadly around you know,
Speaker 1: how like human performance, how do I manage me? How
Speaker 1: do I manage my mind, body, emotions, choices, behavior, lifestyle?
Speaker 1: How do I get the best out of me? Right?
Speaker 1: And so my premise for talking to you know, it's
Speaker 1: like someone might go, so you're going to talk at
Speaker 1: a banking conference, what the fuck do you know about banking?
Speaker 1: I go nothing. I don't need to because I'm not
Speaker 1: there to talk about banking. Because what I've got is
Speaker 1: a thousand people in a room. And each of those
Speaker 1: thousand people have got a brain and a body and
Speaker 1: a mind and a life and a lifestyle, and all
Speaker 1: of them make choices, and all of them have behaviors
Speaker 1: and habits and rituals, and probably all of them overthink,
Speaker 1: and all of them at some stage get anxious. And
Speaker 1: all right, so there's this. Yeah, I'm not a banking expert,
Speaker 1: but I'm not there to talk about that. I'm there
Speaker 1: to talk about how all of those people who work
Speaker 1: in that industry can look after themselves better. You know
Speaker 1: the question.
Speaker 3: You're using a different skill set there, You're you're becoming
Speaker 3: more like a coach, and.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how do I manage me being able to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it doesn't matter if they're they're bankers or in
Speaker 3: the auto industry or what have you. You're you're giving
Speaker 3: them transferable psychological tools that they can use to excel
Speaker 3: in their field, no matter what it is. So if
Speaker 3: you include my book in the realm of what I
Speaker 3: do at the university, I have certainly given talks at
Speaker 3: corporations and other places.
Speaker 1: I've been everywhere with that thing. That's what That's what
Speaker 1: I was thinking.
Speaker 5: So libraries even to build a books Please to meet Me,
Speaker 5: by the way, churches Yeah, yeah, well, I mean it's
Speaker 5: because well humans are in churches too, you know, I mean,
Speaker 5: every absolutely, and there's just you know, there's these this
Speaker 5: wonderful thirst.
Speaker 3: For knowledge that I think most humans have a curiosity.
Speaker 3: And my book, which Pleased to Meet Me, is basically
Speaker 3: a known as manual for the human body based on
Speaker 3: the knowledge that we currently have. Now you know, It's
Speaker 3: a very up to date, cutting edge type of book
Speaker 3: that teaches you how genes and microbes and psychological forces,
Speaker 3: evolutionary forces all conspire to make you who you are.
Speaker 3: And I'm hard pressed to find any human being that
Speaker 3: has no interest in that topic because Know Thyself is
Speaker 3: one of the greatest philosophical pieces of wisdom that's ever
Speaker 3: been put forth, and this book teaches you how to
Speaker 3: do that. Yeah, And in the same manner, it teaches
Speaker 3: you how other people operate, which can you know you
Speaker 3: can leverage for good or bad? I suppose, But it's
Speaker 3: comforting to know that the same things that make you
Speaker 3: tick make another person tick. Okay, So you can find
Speaker 3: some commonalities even though you might be very different. You
Speaker 3: can find these biological commonalities that explain how you got
Speaker 3: to be that type of person. And in my mind,
Speaker 3: it engender's a lot more compassion between people despite the differences.
Speaker 1: I love that you know you can't.
Speaker 3: Help to a large degree the type of person you became,
Speaker 3: and if you understand that about yourself and you understand
Speaker 3: that about someone else, you can put that on the
Speaker 3: table as like the conversation starter. Look, we're very different.
Speaker 3: We can respect that but we do have a lot
Speaker 3: in common. Okay, we're all human, we all have the
Speaker 3: same wishes and aspirations, we all fear the same things,
Speaker 3: and I think at the end of the day, we
Speaker 3: all want to make the world a better place. So
Speaker 3: why are we different? And how can we overcome those
Speaker 3: differences to achieve our common goals? And that's a conversation
Speaker 3: that needs to be had. But there's a lot of
Speaker 3: people out in the world making a lot of money
Speaker 3: by preventing that conversation from happening.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's an interesting time we live in. It's very
Speaker 1: especially right at the moment. So one of the things
Speaker 1: I want your thoughts on this, Right, So this is
Speaker 1: a really common Craig thing. My listeners have heard a
Speaker 1: version of this a thousand times.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: So, when I have a thought, if I believe the thought,
Speaker 1: you know, and let's say the thought it's just a
Speaker 1: construct in my mind, but it's not true. Let's say
Speaker 1: the thought is I'm in danger, right, but I'm not
Speaker 1: actually in danger, but I think I'm in danger. But
Speaker 1: the reality, the real world reality, is that I'm safe.
Speaker 1: There's no threat, I am not in danger, but I
Speaker 1: think I'm in Dangerotional kind of association with that would
Speaker 1: be fear, terror, whatever, And then the physiological could be
Speaker 1: all the things you know, elevated heart rate, breathing, adrenaline, cortisol, sympathetic,
Speaker 1: nervous system, all this physiological stuff happens. So in this
Speaker 1: kind of this myriad of events that are going on
Speaker 1: almost simultaneously, like cognitive emotional physiological or psychological emotional physiological.
Speaker 1: Is the response in my body caused by my thought?
Speaker 1: Or is my genetics which is you know, my genetic disposition?
Speaker 1: Does that determine how I think? Like, what's the direction
Speaker 1: of all of this? Is it all at once? Is it?
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on that, like the way that
Speaker 1: our thinking affects our biology slash physiology and vice versa.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a really interesting question, kind of a biological
Speaker 3: chicken or the egg type of thing. And it all
Speaker 3: happened so fast that we can't perceive what the kinetics
Speaker 3: of this possibly is. But from all I understand about
Speaker 3: stress responses and so on, and I, you know, just
Speaker 3: to touch on your point real quick, we invent so
Speaker 3: much unnecessary stress in our lives today that it's just crazy.
Speaker 3: And it stems from what I call evolutionary ghosts. Okay,
Speaker 3: these are physiological things that happened to us that that
Speaker 3: kind of prey upon our ancient stress responses, things that
Speaker 3: would have kept us alive back when we were running
Speaker 3: away from cheetahs and cougars or whatever, you know, or
Speaker 3: trying to find food. Those are legitimate stresses that if
Speaker 3: we didn't satisfy those drives, those needs, those anxieties, we
Speaker 3: probably would have died. Okay, the survivor was on the line.
Speaker 3: That's not the case for most people today, most people. Okay,
Speaker 3: So we invent all these other stresses, mostly like their
Speaker 3: social in nature, because we still have deep within our
Speaker 3: brains these primordial drives to broadcast the best version of
Speaker 3: ourself that we can. Okay, we're obsessed with status, We're
Speaker 3: obsessed with climbing the hierarchy for these silly reasons to
Speaker 3: attract a mate and dominate you know, the tribe or
Speaker 3: society if you will. And we don't have to do
Speaker 3: that anymore. These these are totally invented stresses and pressures
Speaker 3: that we put upon ourselves. And I know it's so
Speaker 3: much easier said than done. It's easier said by an
Speaker 3: old man like me than a younger person, because those
Speaker 3: stresses are very palpable. You know, I didn't think this
Speaker 3: way when I was younger, but of course I didn't
Speaker 3: have an appreciation for the biology behind all of it.
Speaker 3: But all this excessive ambition for status, when you think
Speaker 3: about it in biological terms, very silly and very unnecessary.
Speaker 3: We can build a different world that is not based
Speaker 3: on competition and you know, defeating one another, but based
Speaker 3: on collaboration and cooperation. That's when humans really excel, Okay,
Speaker 3: not when they compete, when they collaborate, when they cooperate
Speaker 3: the scientific enterprise that you were describing earlier, Craig, despite
Speaker 3: the fact that you plug in one small piece of
Speaker 3: the puzzle that illustrates the power of the connectivity of
Speaker 3: all the scientists working on the same problem. None of
Speaker 3: us can figure it out by ourselves anymore.
Speaker 1: We rely on all all the other individuals helping us.
Speaker 3: So I really get frustrated with egotistical people these days,
Speaker 3: thinking that their singular actions, you know, caused some great thing.
Speaker 3: It is always built on the shoulders of giants, right,
Speaker 3: So what the hell was I talking about before I
Speaker 3: went on That's okay, the evolutionary ghosts and the sustresses
Speaker 3: and the order. Okay, see this is another problem of
Speaker 3: getting old. You forget where your train of thought.
Speaker 1: No, I think it's caused you've got twenty seven things
Speaker 1: going on it once up there. So yeah, go on,
Speaker 1: evolutionary ghost. I'm writing that down. That could be the title.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that was in That was in the book if
Speaker 3: people want to learn more specifics about them, and I
Speaker 3: encourage people to do so, if not from my book,
Speaker 3: from somewhere else, because you can live a much more
Speaker 3: happier life once to identify the silly reason behind many
Speaker 3: of our biological drives.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so here's what. Here's the answer to your question.
Speaker 3: After all of that, I think you know from my
Speaker 3: understanding of the situation is when we, when our brains
Speaker 3: at a subconscious level, detect some threat, okay some you know.
Speaker 3: Let's say that you suspect that someone is spreading some bad.
Speaker 1: Gossip about you. Okay, that's going.
Speaker 3: To send some kind of red alarm, you red alert
Speaker 3: into your brain, right and you might not know why
Speaker 3: at first, but it will quickly occur to you that
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, I'm feeling all this this worry and
Speaker 3: this anger and maybe this thirst for revenge because I
Speaker 3: believe this person is talking bad about me. Okay, so
Speaker 3: I don't believe we think about that. The emotions happen first,
Speaker 3: because those emotions are the same as if you were
Speaker 3: to be chased by a bear, those would be the
Speaker 3: same emotion. It's the same biochemicals coursing through your bodies.
Speaker 3: Whether it's a physical threat or a psychological threat, same chemicals,
Speaker 3: it's the same chemistry. So evolution has basically co opted
Speaker 3: a primordial system that kept us alive. You know, if
Speaker 3: a predator was chasing us, and it is applied it
Speaker 3: to our social interactions, which I mean I can understand.
Speaker 3: Back in the day, those may have been really critical
Speaker 3: to your survival. You know, your status and the tribe
Speaker 3: and the amount of resources you get, the amount of
Speaker 3: mating opportunities and so on.
Speaker 1: You don't need to worry about that in today's world.
Speaker 1: I sure don't. Yeah, I don't think most people do.
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously there's some people.
Speaker 3: It's really bad places where these primordial stress response pathways
Speaker 3: are still going to keep them alive. But most people
Speaker 3: stress about really really dumb things. And if you have
Speaker 3: the courage to analyze your responses and think intelligently, Okay,
Speaker 3: why do I feel anxious? Why do I feel angry? Oh,
Speaker 3: it's because someone might be spreading gossip about me. Put
Speaker 3: a pause in between your response and the emotions you feel,
Speaker 3: and it can be short, a short, little pause, or
Speaker 3: maybe you just want to sleep on it. You know,
Speaker 3: that can even be better sometimes, and you'll find that
Speaker 3: your responses tend to be a lot more measured, a
Speaker 3: lot more stoic, and a lot more sensible if you
Speaker 3: utilize your prefrontal cortex, which is the logical analytical part
Speaker 3: of your brain, and apply it to the emotions that
Speaker 3: you're feeling. Okay, I'm recognizing my emotions, but my common
Speaker 3: sense is telling me this is why I'm feeling those emotions.
Speaker 1: And then you can.
Speaker 3: Evaluate whether you really need a drastic response or if
Speaker 3: it's no big thing.
Speaker 1: That's why you're that's why you're doctor Bill. Yeah. What's
Speaker 1: interesting is that, like an intellectual understanding can coexist with
Speaker 1: an irrational emotion in the same human at the same time.
Speaker 1: Like I might think this is ridiculous, but I might think, oh,
Speaker 1: doctor Bill doesn't like me. Right, I'm all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: I'm insecure, I'm thinking doctor bild, I don't know he
Speaker 1: said that, or he looked at me da da da
Speaker 1: da while while probably knowing that's not true. Do you
Speaker 1: know what I mean? But at these things, or I
Speaker 1: could Maybe a better example is, you know, I've literally
Speaker 1: stood on a stage thousands of times. I did my
Speaker 1: first paid speaking gig when I was twenty six. I
Speaker 1: did lots before that for free, So thousands of times
Speaker 1: I've been of an audience. And there are still times
Speaker 1: when there's fear, like irrational fear, not terror. But well,
Speaker 1: this will be the day that you fuck up, Craig.
Speaker 1: You've been very lucky for the last thirty five years,
Speaker 1: you know, there's that kind of oh what if? What if?
Speaker 1: What if? While having data that tells me, no, you're
Speaker 1: actually quite good at this, you know, unemotional evidence and data,
Speaker 1: whereas those things can coexist, and sometimes I need to
Speaker 1: consciously just recognize the feeling without buying into the feeling,
Speaker 1: you know, while still not pretending that there's zero risk
Speaker 1: and I'm guaranteed to kill it, you know. But I
Speaker 1: think also that like when you are opening the door
Speaker 1: on which is you're opening a Craig door, which I like,
Speaker 1: why do I feel this way?
Speaker 3: Even?
Speaker 1: Why do I think this way? Why do I respond
Speaker 1: this way? Which is like a meta awareness or a
Speaker 1: you know, metabception, metacognition more accurately thinking about thinking but
Speaker 1: also thinking about emotions. It's like that that is a
Speaker 1: real skill and a kind of awareness to be able
Speaker 1: to in the moment, like you said, before you react,
Speaker 1: which some we can't always do that, but if you
Speaker 1: can find a moment to go hang on, what is
Speaker 1: this feeling? Where is this thought coming from?
Speaker 3: Why?
Speaker 6: Why?
Speaker 1: Why is my state changed? Why am I angry now?
Speaker 1: Why am I scared? Now? Why am I overthinking?
Speaker 3: Now?
Speaker 1: Why do I want that person that I don't know?
Speaker 1: Why do I want their approval so desperately? What is
Speaker 1: that about? You know, this is like a real kind
Speaker 1: of I think, like an interpersonal and intra personal superpower
Speaker 1: where you can understart to understand yourself because you're you know,
Speaker 1: like understand yourself bigger than just your biology and physiology.
Speaker 1: Understanding you know, the way that you interact with others
Speaker 1: sociology and the way that you think about others and
Speaker 1: think about yourself psychology, but just understanding you for you,
Speaker 1: but also understanding you for others. You know, does that
Speaker 1: make sense?
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think so, And I'll start by saying, I
Speaker 6: adore you, Craig, you know, thanks whether Professor Bill likes you,
Speaker 6: thank you. You know, I know you've probably lost so
Speaker 6: much sleep over that, and I feel so bad that
Speaker 6: I didn't make it clear.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I really do enjoy coming on here and
Speaker 1: talking to you. Thank you, Tiff. Can you make that
Speaker 1: a real please that Doctor Bill said he adores me.
Speaker 1: So that is going to be all over the internet
Speaker 1: in about a six second reel very soon. Thank you.
Speaker 1: I think anyone who talks to you will feel the
Speaker 1: same way. So now the episode is going to be
Speaker 1: called Doctor Bill Loves Me. There you go.
Speaker 3: I'm sure you'll get a lot a lot of listeners
Speaker 3: on that one.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I'm sorry storry to interrupt. Go ahead.
Speaker 3: Oh no, no, I certainly understand, like the trepidation that
Speaker 3: you still can feel and getting up in front of
Speaker 3: an audience, even if you've done in a million times,
Speaker 3: you're worried that the million in first time is going
Speaker 3: to be a disaster for some reason, yes, or that
Speaker 3: you're you know, as we get older, we're losing it
Speaker 3: or something like that. And you know, that that's perfectly natural.
Speaker 3: But like you said, I love the example that you
Speaker 3: pointed out there. You have the emotional intelligence to stop
Speaker 3: that feeling in its tracks and analyze it and diffuse
Speaker 3: it with data. Okay, you diffuse it with all the
Speaker 3: other instances where you've gotten up in front of the audience,
Speaker 3: all the other instances you felt nervous, Everything was just fine.
Speaker 3: There's no real reason unless you went to the bar
Speaker 3: for lunch, that you're going to screw up this time. Yeah,
Speaker 3: so calm down and have fun with it. And if
Speaker 3: it is a disaster, who cares, you know, So you
Speaker 3: have one bad day, you'll be able to recover from that.
Speaker 3: We take ourselves and other people way too seriously sometimes,
Speaker 3: and you know, I think this is just a part
Speaker 3: of life that maybe it comes along with age, maybe
Speaker 3: it comes by analyzing your emotions more carefully. But you
Speaker 3: know that we all have one really basic thing in common.
Speaker 3: And I give this advice to friends and even family
Speaker 3: members who feel stressed out, and it sounds like really
Speaker 3: really crazy advice, but I tell them, don't forget. One
Speaker 3: day you'll be dead. That person will be dead, everybody
Speaker 3: will be dead. No one's going to remember any of this. Okay,
Speaker 3: In a couple billion years, the sun will swallow the earth.
Speaker 1: All of humanity will be wiped out. What are you
Speaker 1: stressing for? Go out and have some fun. And if
Speaker 1: you weren't stressed before, everyone now you are. No, it's
Speaker 1: so like you were. You didn't say this exactly, but
Speaker 1: and correct what I get wrong earlier. Firstly, I agree
Speaker 1: with what you said. It's really we may be yeah,
Speaker 1: of course, and we we invent problems like if there
Speaker 1: isn't like I've got friends, you know who you are friends.
Speaker 1: If they don't, if nothing's wrong, they'll find something. They'll
Speaker 1: manufacture something to worry about. They will find a needle
Speaker 1: of negativity in a haystack of hope. Oh yeah, right,
Speaker 1: we have.
Speaker 3: A strong negativity bias in our brain. It's kept us alive,
Speaker 3: you know, back in the day. Again, it's another one
Speaker 3: of these evolutionary ghosts.
Speaker 1: And I think that when we think about you were
Speaker 1: talking before about the physiological responses to perceived threat or danger,
Speaker 1: or or maybe I was talking about what we were
Speaker 1: talking about. But it's it's like so like some fear
Speaker 1: is good, like certain fears are good because they're going
Speaker 1: to keep us alive and they make total sense. And Craig,
Speaker 1: don't put your hand in the fire, and that is
Speaker 1: a good fear to have, or don't pick up that snake,
Speaker 1: or don't jump off that you know, these are all intelligent,
Speaker 1: healthy fears that make sense. But then there are irrational
Speaker 1: fears that are almost can almost become a psychological and
Speaker 1: emotional prison, that stop people's growth, that stop people's happiness,
Speaker 1: that stop people's ability to socialize, you know, agoraphobia being
Speaker 1: a classic example of people who are scared to leave
Speaker 1: their house or to you know, like and full respect
Speaker 1: for that, like it's a very real condition, but you know,
Speaker 1: trying to trying to manipulate or change that physical fear
Speaker 1: response over time. And what comes to mind for me
Speaker 1: is I've probably coached about like I've spoken to a
Speaker 1: lot of people about public speaking a lot, but it
Speaker 1: probably coached about ten people in the last thirty years
Speaker 1: who came to me expressly because their job required them
Speaker 1: to talk to a group. And sometimes it was a
Speaker 1: group of five, and sometimes it was in an auditorium
Speaker 1: with hundreds of people, and they were somewhere between scared
Speaker 1: and uncomfortable through to terrified and I didn't really have
Speaker 1: any abject failures. But what was interesting was and it
Speaker 1: was mostly successful and some with some stellar performances where
Speaker 1: people then almost became addicted to it because they loved it, right,
Speaker 1: But watching people transform from doing a thing that creates
Speaker 1: stress and anxiety and all this physical kind of stuff
Speaker 1: happening in their body through to the same person doing
Speaker 1: the same thing and enjoying it and having a completely
Speaker 1: different literal, different physiological, emotional and psychologic experience further down
Speaker 1: the track doing the same thing, and trying to figure out,
Speaker 1: how do we have do we as individuals and we
Speaker 1: can't with everyone, but how do we try in ourselves
Speaker 1: to create a less traumatic physical response to some of
Speaker 1: those things that it's almost like we are creating the trauma.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I get what you're saying, and you know, just
Speaker 3: to put in a disclaimer that we should distinguish that
Speaker 3: there are real phobias out there that can be very paralyzing,
Speaker 3: and we certainly don't mean to belittle those with this conversation,
Speaker 3: But what you're suggesting, Craig is much more minor on
Speaker 3: non clinical phobia that just slows people down on a
Speaker 3: daily basis. For seemingly no good reason. And you know this,
Speaker 3: This I think.
Speaker 1: Is a.
Speaker 3: Is a trainable entity. There are many books on how
Speaker 3: to live your life following stoic philosophical principles. I have
Speaker 3: found those to be immensely helpful. And for those who
Speaker 3: think stoicism is just like ignoring your emotions, that's not
Speaker 3: what it is. It is basically learning how to detect
Speaker 3: your emotions, appreciating them for what they are and nothing more,
Speaker 3: but then utilizing your resources and your intellect to evaluate
Speaker 3: those emotions and respond more productively. Okay, and stoicism gives
Speaker 3: you a wide variety of psychological tools that you can
Speaker 3: use to train yourself in that regard. That's something most
Speaker 3: people can do in the comfort of their own home
Speaker 3: and buy themselves. But if you're struggling with it, stoicism
Speaker 3: is basically the foundation for CBT cognitive behavioral therapy, and
Speaker 3: if you need to seek out a therapist to help
Speaker 3: guide you to develop these habits, cognitive behaviorable behavior therapist
Speaker 3: is what you want to seek out. They will teach
Speaker 3: you how to put that space in between your emotions
Speaker 3: and your response.
Speaker 1: UBST.
Speaker 3: It's pretty remarkable that CBT is a relatively recent psychological
Speaker 3: phenomenon of psychological practice, but it really has its roots
Speaker 3: two thousand years ago with the Greek and Roman Stoic philosophers.
Speaker 3: I just find that fascinating. They figured this out so
Speaker 3: long ago, and we just kind of rediscovered it now.
Speaker 3: And it's a good thing because, like you said in
Speaker 3: your examples, Craig, there's so many people worrying over such
Speaker 3: minutia and trivial things, and I know they can seem
Speaker 3: really worriten to you in the moment, but if you
Speaker 3: can learn to reevaluate some of those feelings that are
Speaker 3: being generated by your body, you really can get better
Speaker 3: at it and develop more productive responses down the road.
Speaker 1: You know what's interesting about you know, obviously the Stoics
Speaker 1: and philosophers and theologians and in different cultures gurus like
Speaker 1: they've been around forever, not literally but a long long time,
Speaker 1: but in the evolutionary timeline, like psychology is five minutes old.
Speaker 1: But yeah, we all grew up going all psychology psychology,
Speaker 1: but for most of most of humanity it wasn't even
Speaker 1: it wasn't even a thing. I think eighteen seventy the
Speaker 1: term was coined or I think the first kind of
Speaker 1: what they would call psychological research. I forget the guy's name.
Speaker 1: It was a German dude, but psychology as a field
Speaker 1: of study and research, and even that name, it's five
Speaker 1: minutes old. And then you think about, as you say,
Speaker 1: what Socrates and Marcus Aurelius and you know, all of
Speaker 1: those dudes and some due debts. I'm sure we're talking
Speaker 1: about two two and a half thousand years ago. It
Speaker 1: was really is really the foundation of so much wisdom
Speaker 1: around just being a human, what it is to be
Speaker 1: a human and to interact with other humans, and to
Speaker 1: learn how to self regulate and self manage and mind
Speaker 1: your mind and mind your emotions and mind your behaviors.
Speaker 1: Like none of this stuff that we're talking about today
Speaker 1: is even remotely new. You know, it's been you would know, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, and none of us knew. It's like that,
Speaker 1: you know, the beginning of wisdom is to know, because
Speaker 1: my you know, to know thy self, which is I
Speaker 1: think two and a half thousand years old. That quote,
Speaker 1: give or take depending on you know, and that was
Speaker 1: I've taken it out, but that was. That was the
Speaker 1: first sentence in the intro to my thesis. It might
Speaker 1: go back in. But it's funny you quote all of
Speaker 1: these researchers. It's like, you know, dat our twenty twenty
Speaker 1: one and then you go Socrates five hundred BC. Yeah,
Speaker 1: two words theyself. Yeah, likely all you need to do.
Speaker 3: But yeah, but you know there's that know theyself seems
Speaker 3: like a simple phreeze and it's a valuable one, but
Speaker 3: there's a lot to unpack there.
Speaker 1: Well, that's that's right. It's like it's like it's analogous
Speaker 1: to saying to somebody, you know, don't worry. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: that's cool, but I need a bit more than that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because that's not a strategy or a plan. There's no.
Speaker 1: That's almost like an instruction, as know thy self is.
Speaker 1: It's it's a good instruction, but then we need a
Speaker 1: little bit more to know. Yeah, good, okay, I get that,
Speaker 1: But what does that mean? And how do I do that? Yeah?
Speaker 3: Well, as Bobby McFerrin would say, you know, don't worry
Speaker 3: be happy, you.
Speaker 1: Know, which is another Okay, Well how do I do that?
Speaker 3: And there are tools out there that can help you that.
Speaker 1: The whole realm of positive psychology.
Speaker 3: Is kind of centered on these principles that recognize that
Speaker 3: human brains, probably all primate brains, have a strong negativity bias.
Speaker 3: It was good for you when you were being chased
Speaker 3: by predators and looking for food and trying to survive
Speaker 3: the elements. We don't live in that world anymore. So
Speaker 3: what we waste a lot of that stress on is
Speaker 3: our social interactions. And I'm not trying to diminish the
Speaker 3: importance of our social interactions, but there are things that
Speaker 3: we do in society that we should analyze before pursuing them.
Speaker 3: This relentless pursuit up the up the ladder of success
Speaker 3: for what you know, get to a rung where you're comfortable,
Speaker 3: and then just start living your life.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 3: Don't let life pass you by trying to reach up
Speaker 3: for another rung on this endless ladder, you know. So
Speaker 3: that's just one really important lesson you can learn and
Speaker 3: when you embrace some of these principles, and it certainly
Speaker 3: doesn't mean that you can just sit back on your couch,
Speaker 3: kick off your shoes and just you know, rest for
Speaker 3: the remainder of your life. That's not really what positive
Speaker 3: psychology it's about. It's about channeling your efforts and your
Speaker 3: energies into more productive things than worry and anxiety, because
Speaker 3: that doesn't help anything. It just shortens your life and
Speaker 3: it makes you miserable. You can extract the energy that's
Speaker 3: being put into those feelings and put it into something tangible. Okay,
Speaker 3: that's really going to make a difference. You know, maybe
Speaker 3: you can rate something, maybe you can go march for
Speaker 3: a cause, maybe you can get into politics. You can
Speaker 3: channel those energies into something that's going to to help
Speaker 3: solve the problem.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. Yeah, we we do have a capacity
Speaker 1: to invest a lot of energy and things that we
Speaker 1: can't control or change. And there's I don't know if
Speaker 1: I've mentioned this to you, but there was a lady
Speaker 1: who recently brought out a book. Sorry everyone that you've
Speaker 1: heard this twenty times, but it's called Bad Therapy Buyer,
Speaker 1: an author and a researcher called Abigail Schreier, and she
Speaker 1: talks about you know that that some for some people,
Speaker 1: talk therapy is not great because it means every Tuesday
Speaker 1: they go and sit down with you know, Brian or
Speaker 1: Gail and talk about the same stuff they talked about
Speaker 1: the last ninety two sessions. Some people, of course, it's
Speaker 1: more than that, but for some people that's not the best.
Speaker 1: But I also think back to your you know, the
Speaker 1: success ladder, Like I think part of the challenge and
Speaker 1: I know we've got to wind up soon, but part
Speaker 1: of the challenge is because most of us me anyway,
Speaker 1: and I'm sure Tiff, I don't know about you, Doc,
Speaker 1: but we kind of grew up in Australia. The culture
Speaker 1: and the collective mindset is that success is about stuff.
Speaker 1: It's about things. It's about you know, what you have
Speaker 1: and what you earn, and what your own, and what
Speaker 1: you drive, and where you live, and what people think
Speaker 1: to you, what people say about you, and your brand
Speaker 1: and your credibility and your academic achievements and your bank
Speaker 1: balance and your body and like it's about all of
Speaker 1: these external things. And we have this. When I have,
Speaker 1: I will be successful when and then you get to there.
Speaker 1: And I did this when I was fortunate in that
Speaker 1: I kind of had some success when I was in
Speaker 1: my early thirties, and by the time I was in
Speaker 1: my early thirties, I was more commercially succescessful then I
Speaker 1: ever thought I would be in my life. But at
Speaker 1: the same time, I was maybe the most sad and
Speaker 1: anxious and not sleeping, and I'm like, how does this work?
Speaker 1: I'm in inverted commas successful so externally from there outside
Speaker 1: looking in, my life's Hollywood and people would say you're
Speaker 1: killing it, You're going oh, and I'll be like yeah,
Speaker 1: And then but internally I'm like, why do I feel
Speaker 1: like shit? And I think that the you know, this
Speaker 1: story that we have is when I own that or
Speaker 1: do this or achieve that or look like that, then
Speaker 1: I will be the opposite of everything. You know. I
Speaker 1: won't be anxious, I will be calm, I will be joyful,
Speaker 1: I will sleep well, I won't be insecure. All of
Speaker 1: these great and then you do those things and you're like,
Speaker 1: none of that's true. I'm still insecure.
Speaker 3: You know. You can see that example plead out in
Speaker 3: many celebrities who are so miserable they turned to drugs
Speaker 3: and alcohol in order to escape what from the outside
Speaker 3: looks like a glorious life. But like you said, they're miserable,
Speaker 3: and no amount of money, no amount of houses or
Speaker 3: boats or jewelry, none of that can satiate the human
Speaker 3: desire for more. And I think culture has a lot
Speaker 3: to do with this, because, like you said, we are
Speaker 3: raised in this culture that your value in life is
Speaker 3: based on what's in your checkbook or what's in your bank,
Speaker 3: and that's total bullshit. Your measure, your value in life
Speaker 3: is the character that you exude, okay, and how you
Speaker 3: treat other people in your life. That's what And scientific
Speaker 3: studies have backed up what philosophers and many theologians have
Speaker 3: been telling us for years. The key to happiness is
Speaker 3: not in external things like money and cars and jewelry.
Speaker 3: It's in internal things. And what that means, of my
Speaker 3: understanding of it is it's how you, you know, build
Speaker 3: your character and recognize someone else's character. It's basically being
Speaker 3: good to yourself, allowing yourself to you know, to feel
Speaker 3: pleasure from very simple things, and you know, extending that
Speaker 3: same kindness to another person. Many studies have shown that gratitude, humility,
Speaker 3: and generosity are much more likely to make you feel
Speaker 3: not only temporary happiness, but sustained contentment than any amount
Speaker 3: of money or luxury.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean it's I think like we think
Speaker 1: that of course, because that's how we're all programmed that
Speaker 1: money equals wealth. And I'm like, well, money's a race.
Speaker 1: Money's not bad by the way, of course, like lots
Speaker 1: of money. Cool. If somebody said, Craig, you can get
Speaker 1: paid X tomorrow or ten x, I'm choosing ten X.
Speaker 1: But I'm not thinking that TENX is going to make
Speaker 1: me a better human and a better person or a
Speaker 1: happier person necessarily at all. But I talk about wealth
Speaker 1: in terms of like social wealth, emotional wealth, spiritual wealth,
Speaker 1: and psychological wealth, and looking at those bank balances or
Speaker 1: those those kind of that kind of you know, because
Speaker 1: as you say, and of course there's a practical reality.
Speaker 1: We've got to pay the bills and feed the kids
Speaker 1: and send them to school, of course, but there is
Speaker 1: a you know, there is definitely a kind of an
Speaker 1: internal kind of ledger as well. Mate, We've got to go.
Speaker 1: One of my proudest moments on this podcast in seventeen
Speaker 1: hundred and eight episodes is getting you to say bullshit.
Speaker 1: So thank you. Couldn't be prouder. Couldn't be prouder if
Speaker 1: I opened the swearing door about a year and a
Speaker 1: half ago and he just finally walked through it. So
Speaker 1: my work is done. Thank you everybody. This will be
Speaker 1: my last, No, it won't be, mate. So Doctor Bill's
Speaker 1: book is pleased to meet me. Jeans, germs, and the
Speaker 1: curious forces that make us who we are. If people
Speaker 1: want to follow you or connect with you, do you
Speaker 1: want them to do that? And if so, how do
Speaker 1: they do that? Oh?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, they can find me at author Bill Sullivan dot com.
Speaker 1: Perfect. All right, we'll say goodbye here, but for the moment,
Speaker 1: Tiffany and Cook, thank you, Thanks guys, doctor Bill, thank you,
Speaker 1: My pleasure.