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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to The Australian's Money Puzzle podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: James Kirkby. Welcome aboard everybody. Now, the outstanding investment in

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Speaker 1: recent times has been gold, gold in any form, gold bars,

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Speaker 1: gold bullion, gold coins. For most of our listeners it

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Speaker 1: would be gold based exchange traded funds and listed gold miners.

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Speaker 1: Even this year to date, gold is up at about

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Speaker 1: twenty three percent so far. This is over the year

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Speaker 1: to date the ASX is up by about two percent.

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Speaker 1: It's moving ten times faster. My guest today, appropriately enough,

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Speaker 1: is oh a man I called mister Gold. We've known

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Speaker 1: each other for a long time. I used to talk

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Speaker 1: to him at the Perth Mint at various other jobs

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Speaker 1: over the years. He is now the general manager of

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Speaker 1: ABC Bullion. That is the place where there was recently

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Speaker 1: queues outside the front door at Martian Place in Sydney,

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Speaker 1: which gives you some idea of what's going on in

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Speaker 1: this area.

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Speaker 2: How are you, Jordan Lovely to love it to be here, James,

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Speaker 2: thanks for the invitation.

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Speaker 3: You're welcome.

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Speaker 1: And Jordan Alicia Folks as I see, he's a deep

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Speaker 1: specialist in gold and he's stuck with it all his

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Speaker 1: career to the listener who's just starting to find out

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Speaker 1: about good just tell us, first of all, what's been happening.

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Speaker 1: They qualify if you with the price change that we've seen.

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Speaker 4: Certainly so.

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Speaker 2: If you look in Australian dollars through to the end

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Speaker 2: of April, the price returned for gold was around forty

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Speaker 2: five percent for the year, so it had gone from

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Speaker 2: around three thousand, five hundred dollars an ounce to about

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Speaker 2: five two hundred dollars an ounce in that one year period,

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Speaker 2: about double the return of silver. Silver had done pretty

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Speaker 2: well as well, but it was only up about twenty percent. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: prices have pulled back a little bit in the last

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Speaker 2: two weeks, so we've seen a correction that was very

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Speaker 2: much expected given just how fast gold had run. But

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Speaker 2: the strong performance of gold isn't just isolated to the

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Speaker 2: last the last twelve months. If you look at sort

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Speaker 2: of three year, five year or ten year returns, you're

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Speaker 2: talking around over three years about twenty four percent per

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Speaker 2: annum annualized, which is about ninety percent in total, and

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Speaker 2: the ten year number is about thirteen percent annualized, which

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Speaker 2: if you compound for ten years, comes out at almost

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Speaker 2: two hundred and fifty percent.

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Speaker 4: The price is rallied.

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Speaker 1: Wow, we're talking strictly good billion here, that's right in

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Speaker 1: Australian dollars, are in US dollars.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's the Australian dollar return in the last

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Speaker 2: twelve months. The return in US dollars has basically been

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Speaker 2: the same. So whilst the currency moves up and down

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Speaker 2: on a daily basis, actually over the last twelve months

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Speaker 2: it's been relatively stables.

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Speaker 4: As a whole.

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Speaker 2: If you take the ten year window, the Australian dollar

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Speaker 2: gold price has outperformed the US dollar goal price, and

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Speaker 2: that's largely a function of the fact that obviously the

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Speaker 2: Aussie has been under pressure really since it peaked back

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Speaker 2: in twenty eleven, when you know, back then you could

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Speaker 2: get a I think it was almost at a dollar

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Speaker 2: ten versus the American dollar, and now it's closer to

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Speaker 2: sixty five cents.

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Speaker 1: So the weakness of the Australian dollar against the US

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Speaker 1: is actually propelling this even faster. But for people who

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Speaker 1: are listening and for you the investor at home, when

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Speaker 1: you see gold prices mentioned in the press or wherever,

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Speaker 1: it's actually US, isn't it. It's the that's the one

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Speaker 1: that everyone uses.

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Speaker 2: More often than not that that is correct, and you

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Speaker 2: know that's why, you know, bullion dealers like us will

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Speaker 2: show whilst we transact in Australian dollars with our clients,

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Speaker 2: will show the US dollars bot price as a reference point,

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Speaker 2: because that's what people are used to seeing or seeing

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Speaker 2: on the news. Interestingly, from a portfolio point of view

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Speaker 2: or from an investment point of you because the Australian

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Speaker 2: dollar is a commodity currency, in part driven by the

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Speaker 2: fact that we're such a huge gold mining nation, but

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Speaker 2: also you know, iron ore and coal and other things.

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Speaker 2: What you tend to find is that gold is potentially

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Speaker 2: an even more useful asset for Australian investors than it

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Speaker 2: is for people in other countries for the very reason

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Speaker 2: that during periods where equity markets are a little bit

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Speaker 2: weak and there's more uncertainty in the economy, not only

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Speaker 2: does gold in US dollars tend to do well, but

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Speaker 2: the Australian dollar often falls, So you sort of get

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Speaker 2: this double benefit as an Australian dollar gold investor in

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Speaker 2: those times of uncertainty.

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Speaker 4: So you know, it doesn't happen all day every day.

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Speaker 2: But it's an interesting sort of factoid that helps drive

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Speaker 2: Australian investors towards gold, be it in bullion form metfs

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Speaker 2: or sometimes through gold miners as well.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I played Devil's advocate here. If I didn't

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Speaker 1: know anything about gold, well, I'd say, well, you know

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Speaker 1: you're from a gold bullying company, you're going to see

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Speaker 1: gold is always going to go. But as would you

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Speaker 1: say if I said to a really said agent when

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Speaker 1: it's a good time to buy property, they've got to

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Speaker 1: say They're always got to say. Now, sure, I think

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Speaker 1: that's only reasonable to put on the table.

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Speaker 3: But for someone who doesn't know anything.

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Speaker 1: About gold, what are the key drivers? Okay, but we

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Speaker 1: know at the moment there's a driver in particular of

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Speaker 1: late being uncertainty because of the tariffs and the whole

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Speaker 1: Trump regime over the US markets. But what drives the

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Speaker 1: price and what has driven that long period of gains

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Speaker 1: that we've seen that you explained at the start of

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Speaker 1: the show.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a great question.

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Speaker 2: So I think, you know, if we go back to

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Speaker 2: I suppose economics who are investing one O one, you know,

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Speaker 2: what drives the prompts of anything? It's a combination of

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Speaker 2: supply demand. So let's quickly address the supply side for

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Speaker 2: investors with gold, there is an absolutely mammoth supply of

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Speaker 2: gold that already exists in the market, a couple hundred

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Speaker 2: thousand tons of gold that have been mined across the

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Speaker 2: course of human history and that are still owned by investors.

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Speaker 4: Supply is pretty static.

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Speaker 2: It grows a little bit every year based on the

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Speaker 2: mind output, as it were. When it comes to demand,

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Speaker 2: you've really got three let's call it primary buckets of

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Speaker 2: buying or of demand. You've got jewelry buyers, which we

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Speaker 2: can deal with quickly in the sense that that is

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Speaker 2: an important long term part of the gold market.

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Speaker 4: People buy jewelry because it looks.

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Speaker 2: Beautiful, and gold is obviously a timeless asset, But actually

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Speaker 2: there's very little correlation between jewelry demand and movements in

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Speaker 2: the goal price. The two other elements one you touched

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Speaker 2: on before, it's central bank buying, and then you've got

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Speaker 2: private investors. Now why do central banks buy gold. They

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Speaker 2: buy for a handful of reasons. First and foremost, because

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Speaker 2: the gold market is big enough, it's liquid enough, it's

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Speaker 2: of substantial enough size that central banks can play in it.

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Speaker 2: So when central banks are investing, they're investing obviously huge

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Speaker 2: sums of money.

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Speaker 1: Big licks of money. They're not put ten grand worth

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Speaker 1: of gold, that's right.

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Speaker 2: But also by definition they can't really go and buy

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Speaker 2: private equity.

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Speaker 4: They're not going to buy small cap stocks.

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Speaker 2: Like there's a suite of investments as it were, that

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Speaker 2: are just not appropriate due to their size, due to

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Speaker 2: their liquidity, due to their risk profile. Gold like the

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Speaker 2: US treasury market, like the eurobond market, the Japanese government

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Speaker 2: bond market, it's one of the few asset classes that

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Speaker 2: is big enough, deep enough and liquid enough that central

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Speaker 2: banks can play in the gold market.

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Speaker 4: And so they do. And it has this.

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Speaker 2: Added advantage obviously, or advantage that is increasingly favorable to

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Speaker 2: central banks, that it has no credit risk. Over the

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Speaker 2: long run, it has demonstrated that it doesn't really have

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Speaker 2: inflation risk as well. It's kept up with or outpaced inflation,

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Speaker 2: and I think increasingly importantly now there's this question around ownership,

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Speaker 2: which has only been exacerbated since the the invasion of

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Speaker 2: the Ukraine by Russia, where Russian central bank assets.

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Speaker 4: And the like have been frozen.

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Speaker 2: You know, if you own gold and you've got it

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Speaker 2: on shore, then really that can't be done. And so

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Speaker 2: what we have seen not only since the invasion of Ukraine,

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Speaker 2: but really going back to the global financial crisis fifteen

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Speaker 2: years ago, is central banks have been buying gold in

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Speaker 2: vast quantities every single year, and the speed at which

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Speaker 2: they're buying has been accelerating. So that's the central bank

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Speaker 2: part of the market. And then the last bit is

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Speaker 2: your private investors that are either buying ETFs, are buying coins,

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Speaker 2: or are buying bars, and fundamentally they're buying is driven

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Speaker 2: by two things. The desire to increase the value of

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Speaker 2: their portfolio. And obviously, in periods like what we've seen

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Speaker 2: in the last year, gold has been a terrific asset

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Speaker 2: from a pure return perspective. But more importantly, and you

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Speaker 2: sort of alluded to yourself, gold has always been that

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Speaker 2: trusted safe haven asset. So in periods of uncertainty, heightened

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Speaker 2: volatility in the share market, you know, question marks over

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Speaker 2: the outlook for growth, investors gravitate towards gold as a

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Speaker 2: safe haven because they feel comfortable that it will preserve

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Speaker 2: their wealth, and that's driven by the fact that it

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Speaker 2: has preserved wealth for so long.

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Speaker 1: Well when we talked during the week, I went back

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Speaker 1: and looked at gold and how it performed, and yes.

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Speaker 3: What you see, of course is true through the ages.

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Speaker 1: And the last time that was really I'm going to

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Speaker 1: exclude COVID, the last time there was really deep uncertainty

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Speaker 1: in the market. That is uncertainty about how the markets

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Speaker 1: actually work, the order in financial system and how it's

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Speaker 1: ordered and how it functions, which is what we have

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Speaker 1: now with this issue about the US in particular and

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Speaker 1: the US dollar system, which we've known on our lives, etc.

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Speaker 1: So there's uncertainty about that. The last time there was

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Speaker 1: uncertainty of parallel was the GFC. And yes, gold really

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Speaker 1: did lift after the GFC, very substantially. When the fear passed,

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Speaker 1: Gold fell by thirty percent roughly in two eleven, at

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Speaker 1: which stage most people were pretty convinced it's over. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it ended in two or nine, but we weren't to know,

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Speaker 1: were we. It took at least a year and a

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Speaker 1: half before people said, oh my god, that whole crisis

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Speaker 1: is over. So there is that passion that if it

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Speaker 1: goes up in times of uncertainty, it does drop in

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Speaker 1: times of how we say a peacetime in the markets.

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Speaker 4: One hundred percent agree.

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Speaker 2: So you know, gold in the short term has similar

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Speaker 2: volatility to equities, and so you know it's sort of

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Speaker 2: almost only natural that after periods where it's raced ahead

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Speaker 2: quite a bit, it's going to consolidate fall back. In

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Speaker 2: the case of twenty eleven in US dollar terms, you're right,

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Speaker 2: it sort of fell into a cyclical bear market that

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Speaker 2: lasted a couple of years before I came onto the

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Speaker 2: show today. I actually was looking at some of the

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Speaker 2: charts and the tables of returns from back in that era,

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Speaker 2: and to put it in, to put it in context.

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Speaker 4: You know, if you look at you know, back.

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Speaker 2: In two thousand and nine twenty ten, you could buy

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Speaker 2: an ounce of gold this is in Australian dollars at

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Speaker 2: around fifteen hundred dollars an ounce.

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Speaker 4: Now, over the next year or so, you.

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Speaker 2: Probably wouldn't have been thrilled with your investment because a

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Speaker 2: bit of heat came out of the gold market as

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Speaker 2: investors rotated back towards equities.

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Speaker 4: And the like.

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Speaker 2: But again I'll just use that price point as an anchor,

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Speaker 2: around fifteen hundred dollars an ounce back, then the price

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Speaker 2: is closer to five thousand today.

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Speaker 4: So whilst in the short term, you know, had you bought.

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Speaker 2: In during that period of let's call it heightened uncertainty

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Speaker 2: and heightened froth in the gold market over the next three, six,

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Speaker 2: twelve months, you might have felt great about yourself as

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Speaker 2: a long term holding, though you've done pretty well having

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Speaker 2: that allocation to gold. So and I think we're probably

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Speaker 2: in a similar period now. Bit of froth coming out

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Speaker 2: of the market quite a healthy thing, but I believe

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Speaker 2: the fundamentals driving gold are still very much in place.

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Speaker 1: Okay, what we might do is in the next part

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Speaker 1: of the show we should talk about where you think

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Speaker 1: gold is going. But also I think the biggest change

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Speaker 1: is what in terms of the choices people have, which

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Speaker 1: has changed so much. In terms of gold, it was

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Speaker 1: a very specialist, refined area once upon a time, refined

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Speaker 1: excuse upon Now it's something that you can buy quite easily.

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Speaker 1: You can buy a thousand dollars worth of gold, five

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Speaker 1: hundred worth if you wish, through exchange traded funds, which

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Speaker 1: have really sort of blossomed in the market.

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Speaker 3: So we'll talk about that in a moment. We take

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Speaker 3: a break.

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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome back. To the Australian's money puzzle. I'm

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Speaker 1: James Kirby talking to Jordan Elisio, general manager of ABC

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Speaker 1: Bullion in Sydney. Mister Gold, Now, mister Gold, tell us

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Speaker 1: about the cues that were forming outside your office at

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Speaker 1: once day. That's arkable, really, had that ever happened before?

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Speaker 1: That happened in April right at the depth of the

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Speaker 1: tariff of scare.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it has happened before, So it happens. So we've

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Speaker 2: been in our global flagship store in Martin Place for

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Speaker 2: just over two years now. We opened in March of

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, and as coincidence, it was almost like

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Speaker 2: it was written in the stars. The day that we

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Speaker 2: opened in Martin Place was the day that the Australian

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Speaker 2: dollar gold price first touched three thousand dollars an ounce, right,

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Speaker 2: and there was huge demand for gold back then.

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Speaker 4: I think it would still be in a lot of

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Speaker 4: people's minds.

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Speaker 2: But that was around the period where Silicon Valley Bank

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Speaker 2: fell over in the United States. Remember that was always

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Speaker 2: almost two years ago to the day, or sorry, two

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Speaker 2: years and a month or so, given we're now in mayhere,

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Speaker 2: and so what we found then was obviously gold was

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Speaker 2: performing quite well, but particularly whenever there's any fears around

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Speaker 2: sort of the safety and security of the banking system,

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Speaker 2: you see physical gold demands and it wasn't just us

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Speaker 2: at ABC Bully and this was a global phenomena at

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Speaker 2: the time. Physical gold demands surged in that period. And

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Speaker 2: so yeah, we had days where we were having cues

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Speaker 2: with a.

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Speaker 4: Norm rather than the exception.

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Speaker 2: There are also then cultural buying periods, particularly when Dwali

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Speaker 2: and Dan Terras for the Indian community ques of people

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Speaker 2: down Martin Place buying gold of the norm over that period, right, But.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, it's not an all day, every day phenomenon.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, but of what was explort I suppose extraordinary

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Speaker 1: was this site of people actually quing for God. The

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Speaker 1: last time I saw people cuing for gold. Well, you

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Speaker 1: would see the course all the time in Hong Kong

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Speaker 1: and I lived there because they used to have gold

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Speaker 1: accounts and people used to just use them like current accounts.

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Speaker 1: It was amazing. Was that's very much a thing. Similarly,

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Speaker 1: I can remember being in Zurich and seeing people sort

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Speaker 1: of going in and out of the gold vaart there,

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Speaker 1: which you would get under banhaf Strass where all the

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Speaker 1: big Swiss banks were famous and all the gold was

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Speaker 1: in the basement.

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Speaker 3: So this is people's image of gold.

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Speaker 1: But it is not much easier to buy gold now

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Speaker 1: because you have, apart from the traditional area which you

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Speaker 1: represent to some degree the gold bars held in the vold,

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Speaker 1: you can buy ETFs, which are similarly they are backed

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Speaker 1: by goldy repp, so you're buying a paper certificate over

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Speaker 1: an amount of gold. And that actually has been I

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Speaker 1: mean ETFs have been growing, but it's really been a

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Speaker 1: boom area for the local market and we have seen

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Speaker 1: a lot of investors go into gold ETFs. Similarly, gold

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Speaker 1: miners so good of course this year, like the entire

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Speaker 1: sector is of thirty three percent. Some of the favorites

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Speaker 1: in the market, Regius Resources is up about seventy percent,

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Speaker 1: Evolution Mining is up. I think it's let me see

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Speaker 1: sixty percent. This is so far this year. These are

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Speaker 1: remarkable figures. Now the thing is Jordan. Where is it

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Speaker 1: going to.

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Speaker 3: Go from here? Gold hit a record a few months

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Speaker 3: ago at three five was it? What was the record hit?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, close to that and in Australian dollar terms that

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Speaker 2: went above five four hundred in mid April. Basically so

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Speaker 2: about a month ago.

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Speaker 1: Which cordcides with the peak fear I suppose to around

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Speaker 1: this tariff, I said, scare, but who knows how it's

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Speaker 1: going to play out? But tariff incident, yes, okay, and

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Speaker 1: then it has retriced a bit since then. What's pushing

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Speaker 1: it higher and what's what could be pushing against it

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Speaker 1: in the months ahead.

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Speaker 2: Let's start with what's pushing against it first and foremost.

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Speaker 2: What we're seeing now is really a textbook correction after

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Speaker 2: such a period of elevated games. You know, a forty

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Speaker 2: annual return for gold is not something that people should

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Speaker 2: expect to see repeated year on year. That is an exception, Ferniger.

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Speaker 2: You need to see some froth coming out. So you know,

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Speaker 2: in US and Aussie dollar terms, it's down roughly ten

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Speaker 2: percent from its peak there or thereabouts, which is you know, again,

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Speaker 2: whether we're looking at gold, equities, you name it. Those

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Speaker 2: are sort of textbook corrections that you see in markets.

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Speaker 2: What's pushing against it right now is also, for one

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Speaker 2: of a better term, the short term calm that appears

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Speaker 2: to be in play regarding tariffs that sort of China

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Speaker 2: US sort of appear to have for one of a

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Speaker 2: better term, lowered their guns for ninety days, and that's

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Speaker 2: given people a little bit of confidence.

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Speaker 4: So that's obviously helped.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I think the SMP's now almost recovered all

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Speaker 2: of its losses, so obviously investors do feel more confident

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Speaker 2: going back into.

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Speaker 4: Two equities, and that's taking away some of golds.

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Speaker 2: Let's call it risk off bid that you'd expect to

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Speaker 2: see as people gravitate out of equities into gold. The

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Speaker 2: other one, as well, is that markets appear to have

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Speaker 2: ever so slightly priced out a couple of rate cuts,

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Speaker 2: so everyone still thinks rates are coming down, but maybe

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Speaker 2: not as fast as what they thought they would a

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Speaker 2: month or so ago.

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Speaker 4: So those are the things that are weighing against gold.

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Speaker 1: The theory is, and it's it's more than a theory,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a key aspect of gold that as

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Speaker 1: rates go down, that's good for gold. Could you explain why.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's probably a fraction more nuanced than that,

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Speaker 2: And I can get out that it's not just about

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Speaker 2: where interest rates are. It's the interplay between interest rates

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Speaker 2: and inflation. So you know, if rates are going up

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Speaker 2: but inflation's going up by more, then all other things

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Speaker 2: being equal, the money you're earning in a bank account

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Speaker 2: is worse off, if that makes sense, right.

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Speaker 4: A world of.

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Speaker 2: Zero percent interest rates and zero percent inflation is almost

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Speaker 2: better for someone with money in a bank account than

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Speaker 2: a world of three percent interest rates but five percent inflation,

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Speaker 2: if that makes sense. So, but the general rule has

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Speaker 2: been that as interest rates in real terms come down,

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Speaker 2: gold tends to do better because you've got less of

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Speaker 2: an opportunity cost in holding this physical asset that doesn't

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Speaker 2: give you an income. So, you know, it sort of

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Speaker 2: stands to reason that if I can make five percent

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Speaker 2: after inflation putting my money in the bank, then that's

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Speaker 2: kind of what I'm giving up by buying gold, Whereas

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Speaker 2: if I can only earn one percent after inflation, it's

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Speaker 2: not so much to be giving away key. And so

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Speaker 2: I think if you look at the outlook for both

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Speaker 2: rates and inflation combined, it feels like we're through the worst. Well,

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Speaker 2: very clearly, we're through the worst of that inflationary spike

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Speaker 2: that we saw after COVID. However, we're now seeing rates

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Speaker 2: start to come down and they're likely to go go

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Speaker 2: further down, and so investors are starting to think, well,

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Speaker 2: hang on, I'm not going to earn much leaving my

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Speaker 2: money in a bank account or tying it up in

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Speaker 2: its term deposit. I'm better to go and look for

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Speaker 2: other investments. And that's not just gold. It's residential real estate,

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Speaker 2: it's equities, it's crypto, it's other things as well. But

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Speaker 2: gold is one of the assets that's likely to benefit

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Speaker 2: from that.

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Speaker 1: But the thing about goold, of course, if you go

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Speaker 1: to financial advisor and you see I'm convincedchoolers good, I'm

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Speaker 1: convincedchoolers on the way up, I'm convinced that gold has

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Speaker 1: been good for you and will continue to be. The

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Speaker 1: infinancial advisor will say the problem with gold is there's

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Speaker 1: no income, and almost every other serious asset class has income.

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Speaker 1: And then there's this sort of residual notion that it

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Speaker 1: was okay, if you're very wealthy, that you can have

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Speaker 1: gold in whatever form you wish, including in bullion, which

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Speaker 1: you obviously have and involves, but there's no income, so

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Speaker 1: you are totally dependent on the price going up. Finally,

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Speaker 1: if you have property, you actually have income.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So I mean, look, that's true.

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Speaker 2: The way I would look at it, having been in

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Speaker 2: bullion for a long time, but also having worked in

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Speaker 2: other markets, the way I look at things is every

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Speaker 2: single asset class has at least one drawback, right there

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Speaker 2: is you know, if I look at cash, well, cash

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Speaker 2: is stable, right, but it offers no potential for capital growth,

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Speaker 2: and you are exposed on the inflation front, and you

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Speaker 2: hope the interest you earn is enough to compensate for

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Speaker 2: the inflation and hopefully a little.

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Speaker 4: Bit more above.

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Speaker 2: So every asset has some kind of drawback. You know,

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Speaker 2: with gold, the criticism for one of a better term,

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Speaker 2: that it doesn't pay an income is one hundred percent true.

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Speaker 2: At the same time, it has always been true. It

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Speaker 2: has not stopped gold from going up about nine percent

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Speaker 2: perannum annualized over the long run.

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Speaker 4: So you sort of have.

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Speaker 2: To ask yourself, well, if from nineteen seventy one to

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Speaker 2: twenty and twenty five gold was able to go up

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Speaker 2: by nine percent perannum even though it didn't pay an

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Speaker 2: income and has no possibility of paying an income, why

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Speaker 2: would that trajectory change. What is it that would make

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Speaker 2: you think, oh, that's no longer going to continue into

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Speaker 2: the long run. You know read you mentioned before real

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Speaker 2: estate as the alternative, whether it's real estate, whether it's

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Speaker 2: money in the bank, whether it's in shares, whether it's bonds.

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Speaker 2: For that entire fifty year period, they've all been paying

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Speaker 2: income or offered the opportunity for income. Still hasn't stopped

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Speaker 2: gold from going up nine percent paranum, if that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: And naprosp is the long term, really long term, like

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Speaker 1: century long average. And then you were seeing at the

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Speaker 1: start of the show that in more recent terms it's

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Speaker 1: been twenty percent or so per anum.

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Speaker 4: In the last few years.

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Speaker 2: Yes, if you look at gold's returns, what you tend

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Speaker 2: to find is yes, so that nine ish mark is

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Speaker 2: the long run figure. What you tend to find is

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Speaker 2: in periods where inflation is higher than average, so like

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Speaker 2: three percent or higher, then the average return of gold's

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Speaker 2: closer to fifteen percent perannum.

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Speaker 4: And again that makes sense.

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Speaker 2: You know, if we're in a higher inflation world, all

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Speaker 2: other things being equal, things like bonds, things like cash

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Speaker 2: in the bank are less attractive. So it's only natural

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Speaker 2: that you're going to see more people gravitate towards gold

439
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Speaker 2: in those environments, and that's going to.

440
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:47,320
Speaker 4: Push the return up a little bit.

441
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no guarantees that's what happens in the future,

442
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 2: but at least that is what the past has shown.

443
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 1: No, there's no guarantees. We know that if buying gold

444
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 1: in the traditional form of bullion, well, how much does

445
00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 1: the standard world bar? Now, let's see how match of

446
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:02,879
Speaker 1: culture and I don't know anything. How much is the

447
00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:03,760
Speaker 1: standard gold bar?

448
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 4: Well?

449
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,600
Speaker 2: You know, obviously one of the beauties of gold is

450
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 2: that it can be fabricated into multiple shapes and sizes.

451
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,280
Speaker 2: But okay, for a one ounce bar, I mean the price,

452
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 2: the spot price of gold right now is almost bang

453
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 2: on five thousand dollars an ounce, So you're going to

454
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:21,120
Speaker 2: pay about five one hundred dollars to buy a one

455
00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 2: ounce bar right now?

456
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 3: Which is about to say, is a little chocolate.

457
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 2: Yeah kind of yeah, like a tiny easter egg, the

458
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 2: kind of easter egg. Yeah, the kind of easter egged

459
00:23:30,760 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 2: kid and grandkid will be unhappy you gave him because

460
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 2: it's not big enough.

461
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,919
Speaker 1: And if you if I, if I then say I

462
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 1: don't want to bring this helm, I've never where to

463
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,919
Speaker 1: put it. You and you want to keep it in

464
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,879
Speaker 1: a vault yep, you pay a holding cost obviously, and

465
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: insurance costs for that.

466
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so you can put you know, you can use

467
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,760
Speaker 2: private vaults and to maybe put some numbers around this.

468
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,959
Speaker 2: And again let's give a practical example. Let's say a

469
00:23:53,960 --> 00:23:57,120
Speaker 2: self managed super fund who's put fifteen percent of their

470
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,360
Speaker 2: portfolio in gold, a million dollar portfolio.

471
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,520
Speaker 1: Which would be on the high side. The advisors will

472
00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,480
Speaker 1: generally see if you've got to do it somewhere between

473
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 1: five five to ten. So let's but that's all right,

474
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 1: I'm just putting in some perspective here.

475
00:24:11,080 --> 00:24:13,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, that's fair. So let's say it's one.

476
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 2: Hundred to one hundred and fifty thousand dollars investment into billion.

477
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 2: You could put that into a small vault that would

478
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 2: cost you about three hundred dollars a year to store

479
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 2: it basically, which in percentage terms is.

480
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 4: About point three ofer percent. Is not a huge number.

481
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 4: So that is one way of buying gold.

482
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 2: You mentioned ets before, which I think have been really

483
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 2: beneficial for the gold market. That ETFs exist, even though

484
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,080
Speaker 2: a lot of people would say, well they compete with

485
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 2: the core business that I'm in.

486
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 4: That's okay.

487
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 2: There are lots of different ways to buy shares or

488
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:47,480
Speaker 2: have exposure to the equity market.

489
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 4: No reason that goal shouldn't be the same.

490
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 2: You've got the ETFs, you also have what are called

491
00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 2: pooled accounts that organizations like ours offer, So you are

492
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 2: buying effectively a share of a pool of gold that

493
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 2: that we're storing. Yeah, you can take it out in

494
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:05,159
Speaker 2: physical gold at any time. That's another way, very popular,

495
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 2: particularly with SMSs. And then increasingly what you're seeing, and

496
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 2: you know, we've been at the forefront of this is

497
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 2: things like gold savings accounts as well, where people can

498
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,159
Speaker 2: sign up to a direct debit plan and put fifty

499
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 2: or one hundred dollars a week or a month away

500
00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 2: into gold. That's really popular for people that are saving

501
00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 2: lots of actually lots of people that use it then for.

502
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 4: Their kids or grandkids.

503
00:25:25,080 --> 00:25:27,160
Speaker 2: So a little bit like you know, I think if

504
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 2: you look at investing full stop, as technology has moved forward,

505
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 2: the way people can access various markets has only gotten better, right,

506
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:37,160
Speaker 2: which I think is a good thing.

507
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 1: What's the argument you put forward if I say I

508
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 1: just got to buy an ETF because it's just so easy. Yeah,

509
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: I have a brooking account to just click and there's

510
00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,240
Speaker 1: the amount I want. Is there any price advantage that

511
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 1: billion has over paper certificate?

512
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,000
Speaker 2: Base school basically, look in a lot of cases, it

513
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 2: would be your transaction costs will be cheaper buying the ETA,

514
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,880
Speaker 2: There's no doubt about that. One thing to keep in mind, though,

515
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,120
Speaker 2: is that when you buy an ETF, like, not only

516
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 2: are you not buying gold, you're buying an instrument that's

517
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 2: linked to gold. But obviously there's a management expense that

518
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 2: effectively gets eaten out of the gold that you are

519
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 2: exposed to every single day, Right, So that management expense

520
00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 2: needs to be factored in as well. So again, if

521
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 2: I use an example, one hundred thousand dollars in physical

522
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 2: bullion put in a vault for three hundred dollars a year,

523
00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 2: or I buy one hundred thousand dollars in a gold

524
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: ETF that charges point four of a percent, Well, my

525
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:38,119
Speaker 2: point four of a percent fee is four hundred bucks.

526
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 4: Not only that, if the goal price.

527
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 2: Goes up and let's say doubles over ten years, I'm

528
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,120
Speaker 2: still paying point four percent. Now I'm paying eight hundred

529
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:47,760
Speaker 2: bucks a year for the ETF. Now I don't see

530
00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,239
Speaker 2: that fee because I'm not getting sent a bill, but

531
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:50,640
Speaker 2: I am.

532
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 4: You are paying it.

533
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:52,479
Speaker 3: It's built in.

534
00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 4: It's built in, So there's the cost element.

535
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 2: And look again there's no one hundred percent right way

536
00:26:57,520 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 2: or one hundred percent wrong way of doing this.

537
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 4: But the other thing, James, that's worth.

538
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 2: Mentioning is, and again we're at the forefront of this,

539
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 2: We see this every day, is that when people buy gold,

540
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 2: and this isn't everyone, but it's an increasingly large number

541
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 2: of people, they don't just want the price exposure. In

542
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 2: many cases, they also want the comfort that comes with

543
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 2: holding the physical asset.

544
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,879
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like bricks and mortar and property. There is

545
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: a tangible aspect. You haven't mentioned, an argument put forward

546
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 1: which sometimes flares up a lot of the ETFs. You know,

547
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: the promises they're back to one hundred percent by golds

548
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: held somewhere, invariably in London. I understand. Is there a

549
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: danger that ETFs couldn't cover the amount of gold they

550
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: say they have?

551
00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:47,200
Speaker 2: Ah, Look, I can't really comment on that in any

552
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,200
Speaker 2: great detail because the reason I say that is that

553
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: globally there's more than one hundred gold ETFs listed now

554
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 2: across various exchanges. The legal structure of those investments where

555
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 2: that gold stores, it's not like they're all exactly the

556
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: same and you can just make one sort of cast

557
00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 2: all observation. So I don't want to sort of sit

558
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,520
Speaker 2: here and for one of a better term, talk down

559
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 2: a potentially competitive way of accessing bullion in a portfolio.

560
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 2: What I would say is that you know, if you

561
00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 2: buy the physical gold, you have the economic exposure and

562
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 2: you own the real thing. If you buy an ETF,

563
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,760
Speaker 2: you just have the economic exposure and hopefully you can

564
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 2: get your hands on the real thing if you decide

565
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 2: you want it, right, I think that's that's probably as

566
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 2: you knows, as much as I can say on that.

567
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: Okay, No, I thought it was both bringing up and

568
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: I think you were very I think you were very

569
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: fair and balanced in your explanation of that issue, which

570
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: does flare up at times, and it flares up of

571
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:48,880
Speaker 1: course when.

572
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,320
Speaker 3: There is a crisis absolutely.

573
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: And then there's always this theory about ETFs. Would they

574
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,560
Speaker 1: be able to if everyone's certainly the ETF they promised

575
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 1: the convertibility of gold, could they actually all produce the

576
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: gold to back the ETF? So if I had one

577
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: hundred thousands, can I get that one hundred thousand gold?

578
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: It's yet to be proved they can't, and it hasn't

579
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: been an issue, but as they get bigger, of course

580
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 1: the issue becomes a larger issue in itself. Okay, really

581
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: really interesting. I think I hope that listeners have got

582
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 1: a good grasp on that. I imagine if you're thinking

583
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: of gold as a part of the portfolio, the numbers

584
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: so far are terribly convincing. You have to say, then

585
00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: the issue for you is whether you do it, and

586
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 1: the extent to do it and the method by which

587
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: you do it. And we see some of the funds now,

588
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 1: some of the private funds making a lot of play

589
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,720
Speaker 1: about gold. It's definitely a period that is very has

590
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: been extremely good for them. The issue is can that continue?

591
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 1: But some of the drivers I think that Jordan explained

592
00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 1: are their perennial They're not just to do with Trump.

593
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,080
Speaker 1: Trump has just basically put an extra spice I think,

594
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:06,160
Speaker 1: on the gold price in recent times because of that

595
00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: and uncertainty. A lot of that uncertainty obviously is not

596
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,239
Speaker 1: going to go away overnight. Okay, Now, we have some

597
00:30:11,280 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: really good questions which have arisen from recent shows, and

598
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: I want to get to them in a moment, particularly

599
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: to clarify a few things about SMSFS which came up

600
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: and also some off budget items. And I just want

601
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 1: to give a little shout out to James Gerard on

602
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: Monday show. We got a lot of questions. Actually, I

603
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: didn't realize so many of you were so interested in

604
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 1: home batteries and solar panels and saving money.

605
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 3: But why wouldn't you be? And it was a very

606
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 3: good show.

607
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 1: Okay, back in a moment, Hello, Welcome back to The

608
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: Australian's Money Positive podcast. James Kirby talking to Jordan Licio

609
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 1: of ABC Bullion the Gold Company.

610
00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 3: Now.

611
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 1: Marian Emmy Ion says, I listened to your podcast, find

612
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,200
Speaker 1: it very relevant. A couple of times on recent shows

613
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: you said around the new government of what was going on.

614
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: I heard you comment that that unlike the transfer balance

615
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: cap and super the concession and contribution caps are not indexed.

616
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 3: That is not correct.

617
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: And then Marian goes to the trouble of showing me

618
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 1: part of the ATO website where it's all proved. Yes,

619
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 1: Marian absolutely maya culpa. I should never have said they're

620
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 1: not indexed. I should have said they are not being

621
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: indexed this time around, believe it or not, in our

622
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:42,959
Speaker 1: crazy supersystem, the indexing on how much you can have

623
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 1: tax free and Super is linked to the CPI. The

624
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,600
Speaker 1: indexing on how much you can put into super pre

625
00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: tax or as they say, concessional is linked with the.

626
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 3: Industrial wage. Can you believe this?

627
00:31:57,840 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: So they go on different indices, and that's that's why

628
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: the cap went up. It's going off to two million

629
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: on July one, but the amount you can put in

630
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 1: each year at thirty thousand is not going up.

631
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 3: Absolutely silly, But.

632
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: I should have been careful to clarify that.

633
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 3: Okay, there's a.

634
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: Question here that and I know you you're an economist

635
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 1: by training, aren't you, Jordan, And that was your original

636
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 1: I think you were the economists at ABC billion.

637
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:22,400
Speaker 3: What's upon a time when you started.

638
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, my background was in was in funds management originally,

639
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: so you know, I sort of came to gold as

640
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 2: a diversified investor originally.

641
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 4: That was my original interest in bullion.

642
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: So I'll tell you what that first question from Mariyan,

643
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 2: I was glad that didn't come to me. I was

644
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,479
Speaker 2: just thinking I'd need to be a financial advisor to

645
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 2: have any idea about how to answer that.

646
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: Oh, look, you know it's I can answer them for

647
00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 1: the simple reason that I do this every week.

648
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 3: And it's like learning a language.

649
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: You know, if you if you didn't speak it for

650
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: a while, you'd forget a lot of it because it

651
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 1: is not necessarily intuitive or indeed logical. But I that

652
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: that is how it goes now. Andrew asks, this is

653
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:01,960
Speaker 1: about we were talking about X and we mentioned on

654
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 1: the show when the new government was elected that there

655
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: was various sort of goodies that they had handed out

656
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: in during the election. One of them which our list

657
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: is very interested in, was hex. Your hex bill would

658
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: be cut by twenty percent straight up if ALP were elected,

659
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: and they have been re elected with an improved majority, consequently,

660
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: your hex bill, whatever it may be.

661
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 3: Is going to go down by twenty percent. Now.

662
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 1: The point I was making on the show was that

663
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: this isn't even in the budget. It's what they call

664
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 1: off budget. And Andrew asks, thank you for touching on

665
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: off budget items.

666
00:33:36,760 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 3: What a joke that is.

667
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:42,479
Speaker 1: I challenge any of our leaders political leaders to go

668
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: to the shops to purchase groceries and when they are

669
00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 1: asked for their credit card for payment, that they instead

670
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: asked the cashier that they would like to pay for

671
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 1: the groceries off the credit card. It's true though, isn't

672
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 1: it this after do you remember this whole thing about

673
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: off budget items. I mean it used to be a

674
00:33:57,440 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: small thing that they used to put a couple of

675
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 1: things through. But it's like they're both both sides are

676
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 1: doing it at nauseam now idea so that the budget

677
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: is it's kind of well, we cover the budget.

678
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 3: It's incomplete, really, isn't it.

679
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 4: Yes?

680
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 2: I would think that it's amazing that that that, for

681
00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 2: one of a better term, the rules are written in

682
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,920
Speaker 2: such a way that that can be done. It's probably

683
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 2: doesn't encourage the most discipline, I think. Look, and it

684
00:34:22,640 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: feeds into, frankly, this concern that more and more people

685
00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 2: have around the trajectory of public finances, you know. And

686
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,600
Speaker 2: that's not a red versus blue comment, either in Australia

687
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 2: or overseas. It's a reality that we're going to have

688
00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 2: to deal with one way or the other. And I

689
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,439
Speaker 2: think it's why a lot of people think that over

690
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: the next few years inflation is going to have to

691
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,399
Speaker 2: be higher, because it's really the only way to deal

692
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 2: with some of the debt that's been accumulated to date

693
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,920
Speaker 2: and the debt that is going to be accumulated given

694
00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 2: the size of budget deficits been run.

695
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: Specifically, you're talking about the debt that we see that

696
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,879
Speaker 1: we talk about being the budget deficit, but the debt's

697
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: much bigger than that because the all these off budget

698
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 1: items that are not visible in the budget that don't

699
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: get mentioned, and they are literally like throwaway lines in

700
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: economic articles that many people would struggle to understand in

701
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,440
Speaker 1: the first place. Yeah, it's very interesting. It's definitely an issue.

702
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,239
Speaker 1: Thanks for that, Andrew. Okay, and thank you very much

703
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: Jordan Elicio, ABC bully in General manager for being on

704
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 1: the show today.

705
00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:21,320
Speaker 3: That was great.

706
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: I think you were very balanced about gold considering that's

707
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,120
Speaker 1: your full time job all your life.

708
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:26,800
Speaker 4: Pleasure.

709
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 1: Great to have you, thank you and really informative and

710
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: thanks everyone for the questions we've got. I've definitely got

711
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,720
Speaker 1: quite an upticking questions. As I say off James Gerard's

712
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: show Monday. If you've missed that, make sure you hear it.

713
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 1: It was all about talking about the government's goodies. Another

714
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 1: one was, of course that they're cutting the discount on

715
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 1: the battery on the home batteries for powering your solar panels.

716
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: Most people thought they were too dear, but James made

717
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 1: the point that in fact, coupled with stake Ground still

718
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 1: now be literally cutting half. The price will be cut

719
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: in half and I think it will bring a lot

720
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: more people into UH into green energy. I keep the

721
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 1: emails rolling the money puzzle at the Australian dot com

722
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: dot au dot you soon m