1 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey. 2 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:13,400 Speaker 1: It's Tuesday, September thirty, twenty twenty five. Australia's transition to 3 00:00:13,440 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: renewables will cost more than one point three trillion dollars. 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: That's according to conservationists who say the rollout plan of 5 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: more than one thousand wind and solar projects is a mess. 6 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: They're pushing for management of the plan to be overhauled. 7 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:32,879 Speaker 1: Indigenous artists whose work is being stolen by copyright frauds 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: and ai will be protected by new laws being drafted 9 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,959 Speaker 1: by the federal government to protect intellectual property. The Department, 10 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:42,440 Speaker 1: helmed by a Minister for the Art's Tony Burke, will 11 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: spend almost fifteen million dollars to develop new laws in 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: consultation with First Nations people. It comes after The Australian 13 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: revealed potentially thousands of stolen Indigenous art works are being 14 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: sold on Timu for as little as five dollars. Those 15 00:00:59,600 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: stories alive right now at the Australian dot Com dot you. 16 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 1: A father who was convicted of sexually abusing his own 17 00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: five year old daughter was given a minimum prison term 18 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 1: of just two and a half years because a judge 19 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: found he was in the process of transitioning to a 20 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: woman and that reduced his moral culpability. Now the offenders 21 00:01:21,640 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: serving the sentence in a women's prison today, why Victorian 22 00:01:26,760 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: Premier Jacinta Allen is facing demands from women's groups to 23 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: change the law. Stephen Rice is The Australian's new South 24 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: Wales editor and he's reporting today on the case of 25 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: someone who's been given the pseudonym by the court's Hilary Maloney. 26 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: RISSI what has Hillary Maloney been found to have done 27 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: by the courts in Victoria. 28 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 2: Well, this is a really horrific case. This man who 29 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 2: is known now in courts as Hilary Maloney, he was 30 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 2: a father who sexually abused his own five year old 31 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 2: daughter under really awful circumstances. I mean, the details of 32 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 2: this case we can't print because you know, what happened 33 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 2: to this little girl is just too horrific. But this 34 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 2: father was convicted of these crimes and is now being 35 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:27,960 Speaker 2: held in a female prison in Victoria. That's caused an 36 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: immense amount of outrage and the Premier to center Allen 37 00:02:32,440 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 2: is so far refusing to discuss this case. And now 38 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 2: There's another issue which is being raised, and that's the 39 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 2: leniency of the sentence, only two and a half years 40 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 2: minimum for this crime. And part of the reason for 41 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 2: that was that the judge took into account the difficulties 42 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 2: that he had had in transitioning to be a woman. 43 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,360 Speaker 1: It is shocking offending. Rise Let's rewind to how this 44 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 1: person was arrested. You're reporting today that Hillary Maloney was 45 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:14,160 Speaker 1: arrested after agreeing to become the in quote slave of 46 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 1: an American pedophile and molest his daughter on camera. So 47 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:22,639 Speaker 1: presumably that was an aggravating part of the offending. 48 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,000 Speaker 2: You would have thought that would have been an aggravating 49 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 2: part of the offending and would have heightened the sentence. 50 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 2: In fact, it appears to have lessened the sentence. The 51 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 2: judge presiding over this case, Judge Parapinaggio Titus, seems to 52 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:45,960 Speaker 2: have taken the view that because this man was manipulated 53 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 2: into becoming a slave to his American master, that somehow 54 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:59,120 Speaker 2: this negated some of his responsibility towards his own child. 55 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:05,680 Speaker 2: It seems unbelievable, but the judge said that the issues 56 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: that this man faced in his transition to being a 57 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 2: woman reduced his moral culpability. 58 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:16,520 Speaker 1: What do you know about what stage Hillary Maloney was 59 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: at at the time of the actual offending Rice, He 60 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:21,840 Speaker 1: had Hillary Maloney transitioned. 61 00:04:21,880 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 2: By that stage, Maloney was in the process of transitioning, 62 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: and it appears had been taking some kind of hormone therapy, 63 00:04:31,520 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 2: hadn't had any gender affirming surgery, but had been taking hormones, 64 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 2: but had not yet apparently fully transitioned to become a woman, 65 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 2: and got into this situation with this American pedophile agreeing 66 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 2: to become his slave, and the judge has treated him 67 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,919 Speaker 2: during that period as having been a vulnerable woman. 68 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:08,279 Speaker 1: So there's two issues here, aren't there, RICEI. One is 69 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,480 Speaker 1: the issue of potentially getting a lighter sentence or asking 70 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,720 Speaker 1: for a lighter sentence on the basis of this difficulty 71 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 1: with transitioning. And then there's the question of incarceration. There 72 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: would be an accusation, I think from women's rights activists 73 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:26,520 Speaker 1: that male offenders would claim to be transitioning because they 74 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 1: think they might get an easier time in a women's prison. 75 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 2: That's exactly what's being alleged, not only that they would 76 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 2: get an easier time in prison, but the mere pleading 77 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 2: of it. Of the fact that there is a transition involved, 78 00:05:42,120 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 2: will lessen the sentence in the first place, and then 79 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:52,599 Speaker 2: get the offender, get the biological male offender into a 80 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: women's prison, where yes, undoubtedly, for much of the time, 81 00:05:56,800 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 2: whatever kind of prison you go into, you as a 82 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 2: child sex offender, you'll be segregated. But I don't think 83 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 2: there's any question that you'll have an easier time in 84 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 2: a women's prison. And some of the women's activists make 85 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 2: the point that for these kind of offenders, being a 86 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 2: woman's prison has an extra advantage in that the jailers 87 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:29,240 Speaker 2: are really required to treat them as women and treat 88 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 2: them perhaps in a different way than they might treat 89 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 2: male prisoners. So there's essentially a double advantage for these 90 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 2: people in getting into a women's prison. 91 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: This is reminiscent of one of the really totemic cases 92 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:50,320 Speaker 1: for the women's rights movement, and that's the case of 93 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: Isla Bryson, a Scottish rapist who was convicted when using 94 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: the name Adam Graham. This is what the judge had 95 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: to say in the last few minutes. 96 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,600 Speaker 3: It is necessary to punish you and to seek to 97 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:09,080 Speaker 3: deter you and others from behaving in this way, and 98 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 3: in particular to protect the public from you. It is 99 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 3: plain that you present a particularly significant risk to any 100 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:20,080 Speaker 3: women with whom you form a relationship. 101 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: After being convicted of raping two women, Adam Graham came 102 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 1: out as transgender and said that he now wanted to 103 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 1: be known as Aila. Bryson was remanded to a women's prison, 104 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: and then, following a huge controversy which involve people like JK. Rowling, 105 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 1: was transferred to a men's prison. This is kind of 106 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: the worst case scenario come to life, isn't it ricey 107 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: For people who want to be inclusive, who accept that 108 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: people can potentially have complex feelings about their gender. For 109 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: a male rapist to wind up in a women's prison, 110 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: it's the nightmare come true. 111 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, And you're quite right right about Bryson. And there 112 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,600 Speaker 2: was a tremendous backlash in Scotland over that the prison 113 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:08,040 Speaker 2: service eventually had to back down, and now trans people 114 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: in Scotland at least initially are imprisoned according to their 115 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 2: sex at birth. And the other worrying thing, perhaps for 116 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 2: Jacinta Allen in Victoria, is that in that Scottish case 117 00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 2: of Isla Bryson, that pretty much led to the undoing 118 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 2: of Nicola Sturgeon, the first Minister of Scotland, who was 119 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 2: right to the end, was denying that there was any 120 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 2: kind of risk involved in placing Bryson in a woman's prison, 121 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 2: and eventually that led to her downfall. 122 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 4: I should have been much more straightforward. I wasn't, but 123 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 4: that's because of the debate. We'd lost all sense of 124 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 4: rationality in this debate. I'm partly responsible for that. Anything 125 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,839 Speaker 4: I see about Aila Bryson in the water world will 126 00:08:57,880 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 4: immediately be taken and transfer to every parson. And if 127 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 4: I sometimes still seem as if I'm struggling with how 128 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 4: to define a lebrace, and it's not out of any 129 00:09:08,240 --> 00:09:11,319 Speaker 4: concern for ale Brason, it's out of concern for how 130 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 4: that then affects the weed of trans community and that 131 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 4: is difficult. 132 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, really energize the women's movement in Scotland, and in 133 00:09:20,280 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: fact it was a Scottish women's group who took the 134 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:28,200 Speaker 1: government to the High Court testing the definition of sex 135 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 1: woman and man in the Equality Act. The British High 136 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: Court then found that in fact, woman was a term 137 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: only to be used for people born with the biological 138 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,719 Speaker 1: sex of a woman. And that's reshaped the whole landscape 139 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: in Britain, hasn't it. 140 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 2: It's reshaped the landscape in Scotland and in many other 141 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:53,080 Speaker 2: parts of the world. Australia has become a real outlier 142 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 2: on some of these issues, which I think common sense 143 00:09:56,679 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: is really starting to take over in many the western 144 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,520 Speaker 2: countries and some of the more ridiculous, far reaching kind 145 00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 2: of things that the transactivist movement had managed to score 146 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 2: are really now being wound back quite heavily. 147 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's going through the courts in Australia too. That's 148 00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: a federal court case brought by a woman called Sal Grover, 149 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: who is challenging legislation that the gillad government introduced in 150 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen. That was an amendment to the Sex Discrimination Act, 151 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: which banned discrimination against anyone on the basis of gender identity. 152 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: I think back then it was kind of a well 153 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: meaning attempt to ensure that trans people were included ricey, 154 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: but it's ended up having the consequence that people like 155 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:49,960 Speaker 1: Sal Grover who try to create women only spaces can 156 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: be found to be in breach of the law because 157 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: they're discriminating against people who are transgender. Sal Grover's had 158 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 1: something to say about this case in Victoria. What's her view? 159 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:05,920 Speaker 2: Oh, look, Grover is very very upset about what's happening 160 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: in this case and sees the link very much to 161 00:11:10,679 --> 00:11:14,319 Speaker 2: her own case. And as you've said, Grover was caught 162 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 2: up in this legal case where really all she was 163 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 2: trying to do was create an online space for women only, 164 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 2: and has found herself being called through the courts simply 165 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 2: for wanting a space where women can feel safe, and 166 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 2: is now facing the absurd situation where the sex discrimination commissioner, 167 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 2: who you would have thought would have been completely on 168 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 2: her side, a sex discrimination commission whose position was created 169 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 2: in the first place to protect women, has now come 170 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 2: down completely on the side of this transgender person a 171 00:11:55,720 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 2: Roxanne Tickle, suggesting that a trans woman must have a 172 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 2: right to go into a woman only space. And even 173 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 2: more ridiculous, the sex discrimination commissioner is fighting the right 174 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:16,320 Speaker 2: of lesbians to have their own spaces on the basis 175 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 2: that transgender women, in other words, biological men must be 176 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 2: allowed into lesbian spaces. The whole thing has become completely absurd. 177 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,679 Speaker 1: Coming up. Trans people are vulnerable, so are kids, so 178 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: are women. In the criminal justice system, how do we 179 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 1: balance up everyone's rights. One of the features of this debate, 180 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 1: Rice is that there are activists on both sides, and 181 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: on both sides there are genuine people who are just 182 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: going through their own personal struggles. There are trans people 183 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: who just want to be accepted, and they are transactivists 184 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,600 Speaker 1: who are extremely vocal in using every loophole there can. 185 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: There are biological women who just want to do their 186 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 1: own thing, and then there are very focused women's rights 187 00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: activists who all amp up the situation at every opportunity. 188 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 1: In this situation in Victoria, Hillary Maloney, what's your sense 189 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:22,440 Speaker 1: here of where that line falls. Is this about someone 190 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: just going through a very personal struggle, or is this 191 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: about activism. 192 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 2: I don't get the impression that this sex offender is 193 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 2: any kind of activist. What I get the impression is 194 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 2: that it's a situation where a judge has just bent 195 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:43,959 Speaker 2: over backwards, just tried too hard to accommodate a sex 196 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 2: offender who really should be held responsible for their own actions, 197 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 2: completely regardless of whether they identify as a man or 198 00:13:55,200 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 2: a woman. This person, Maloney was a father at the 199 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 2: time that he committed this offense against his own five 200 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 2: year old daughter, and I think that's what we've got 201 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:07,559 Speaker 2: to remember. 202 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, it feels to me, Rice, And I'm going to 203 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: sound like a second wave feminist here, probably because I 204 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: am one. That it's always women and girls whose rights 205 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:21,120 Speaker 1: end up being eroded in the attempt to perhaps do 206 00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,840 Speaker 1: the right thing. Maybe this judge was well intentioned, but 207 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: it's ended up being this little girl and the very 208 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: vulnerable women in Victoria's prisons, who no doubt are themselves 209 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: the victims as well as perhaps being perpetrators of crimes, 210 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 1: are probably the victims of domestic violence and drug abuse 211 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: and sexism and discrimination. They're the ones who end up suffering. 212 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, there may have been the best intentions 213 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: of the world, but who could ever have imagined that 214 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:50,280 Speaker 2: it would come to this? 215 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,120 Speaker 1: Right? See the premiere of Victoria is Labour's justinto Alan. 216 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 1: She seems to be embattled on one topic or another 217 00:14:56,960 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 1: every second week. What's she saying about this? 218 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 2: Allen is buck passing this to her Corrections and Justice Minister. 219 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,640 Speaker 2: As you say, she's got a lot to deal with, 220 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 2: but on this one, I think she really needs to 221 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 2: step up. This one isn't going. 222 00:15:12,480 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 4: To go away. 223 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:20,840 Speaker 1: Stephen. Rice is the Australian's new South Wales editor. You 224 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: can check out his reporting, plus our ongoing coverage of 225 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 1: this huge and complex issue right now at the Australian 226 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 1: dot com dot au