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Speaker 1: This episode of Headgame was recorded on Gadigal Lands.

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Speaker 2: August twenty seventeen. And Jamilla Risve is walking into her

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Speaker 2: GP's office. She thinks she might be pregnant. Being just

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Speaker 2: two years since she and her husband welcome their son,

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Speaker 2: she is a little concerned about managing two children under

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Speaker 2: the age of three. Her GP orders the usual tests,

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Speaker 2: an ultrasound and bloods, With results inconclusive. She's sent to

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Speaker 2: specialists for a closer examination. Instead of finding a baby,

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Speaker 2: doctors discover a rare tumor in Jimilla's brain. The diagnosis

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Speaker 2: triggers a harrowing treatment plan, two rounds of surgery and

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Speaker 2: thirty six rounds of radiation, the effects of which she

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Speaker 2: still battles to this day. I'm at Middleton and this

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Speaker 2: is Headgame today, Australian author and journalist Jamilla Risve on

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Speaker 2: fighting a one in a million brain tumor. Now, Jamila,

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Speaker 2: you wear many hats, don't you. Yeah?

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Speaker 3: I do.

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Speaker 1: Actually, I look really good in hats. That's one of Like,

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Speaker 1: that's one of my that's my I don't have one today,

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Speaker 1: but like it's my humble brag. I'm someone when you

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Speaker 1: get told to put on a hat I look good. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think I'm someone who, uh most people when they

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Speaker 1: describe me when I've left jobs and stuff like that,

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Speaker 1: enthusiastic tends to be the word that gets thrown around

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Speaker 1: the most.

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Speaker 2: I can feel that. I can feel that energy.

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Speaker 1: Or any But when you're enthusiastic, you try. You tend

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Speaker 1: to want to do all the things right. And I'm

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Speaker 1: someone who has always sort of felt like there's not

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Speaker 1: enough time to do all the things I'd like to do,

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Speaker 1: so try and wear as many hats as i can.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I've seen and journalists as well. I'm sort of

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Speaker 2: reading through the list and I'm loving it because I

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Speaker 2: completely relate to that. You know, jumping from from hat

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Speaker 2: to hat, you know, people to people, different environments, different locations,

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Speaker 2: surrounding yourself with different people, You're always going to learn

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Speaker 2: and grow and become a better version of who you are.

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Speaker 2: Take me back though, to your Mama Mia days, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: because that's ultimately where it's sort of not all started,

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Speaker 2: but that's where you know, you sort of were thrust

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Speaker 2: into into the limelight as such, and your messaging and

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Speaker 2: then you know your values behind what Mama Mia encapsulated

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Speaker 2: taught me through that. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Sure, So I'd been working in politics, so I'd very

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Speaker 1: much been around media and around that spotlight you talk about,

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Speaker 1: but very much not in it.

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Speaker 2: I was.

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Speaker 1: I was behind the scenes helping prime ministers and ministers

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Speaker 1: get their message across. But the worst thing in that

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Speaker 1: job you could possibly do was get caught on camera.

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Speaker 1: Your job was to never be, never be seen.

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Speaker 2: Oh so that's what you were. You were you were

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Speaker 2: ultimately were you scripting stuff for politicians.

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Speaker 3: And media advisor and buchw of different things.

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Speaker 2: I love that.

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Speaker 1: And then I could see that the government wasn't likely

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Speaker 1: to win, and to be honest, I was really pragmatic.

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Speaker 1: I could see a lot of people with the same

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Speaker 1: skills as me. We're about to be unemployed at the

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Speaker 1: same time, and I was looking ahead and thinking.

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Speaker 3: Well what would I do?

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Speaker 1: And Lisa Wilkinson tweeted the job at Mamma Mia and

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't have seen it otherwise. I clicked on it

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Speaker 1: and I applied and I got the job and moved

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Speaker 1: to Sydney and it all happened in about two weeks.

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Speaker 3: So it was a real whirlwind.

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Speaker 2: So you went some Ultimately, you went from the political

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Speaker 2: realm into what realm is Mama Mia, because it's quite

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Speaker 2: quite a jump from one jib bowl to another.

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Speaker 1: And actually I think what Mamma Mia is today is

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Speaker 1: quite different to what it was in twenty twelve. So

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Speaker 1: in twenty twelve, Mia Friedman had turned her blog into

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Speaker 1: a website and she had a company that was running

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Speaker 1: this women's website and publishing every day and they probably

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Speaker 1: had three, maybe three writers I think working there. The

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Speaker 1: whole company was about a dozen people. We were working

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Speaker 1: out of this tiny little office in Lime Street, down

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Speaker 1: by the wharf in Sydney. We didn't have a meeting room,

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Speaker 1: so we used to have all our meetings out on

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Speaker 1: the balcony because there was a table out there that

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Speaker 1: was a bit bigger.

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Speaker 2: Good old startups.

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Speaker 1: It was a proper startup. It was a proper startup.

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Speaker 1: But it really suited me actually because I think to

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Speaker 1: thrive in politics, you've got to be happy with chaos

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Speaker 1: and you've got to be happy with making what you

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Speaker 1: can out of what you've got, and a startup isn't

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Speaker 1: dissimilar in that regard. You've just got to hit the

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Speaker 1: ground running. There's no time to say, oh, I don't

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Speaker 1: want to do that. Job, or I think I'd be

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Speaker 1: better suited to this. You just like you just start right,

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Speaker 1: you roll your sleeves up, and you do whatever you're

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Speaker 1: asked to do. And I loved working there, and I

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Speaker 1: worked there for almost four years. And during those four

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Speaker 1: years we went from twelve to one hundred and twenty staff,

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Speaker 1: so it was a massive expansion.

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Speaker 2: Wow, so you're going along and I take it you're

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Speaker 2: working all hours under the sun here right. What was

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Speaker 2: the messaging behind Mama Mia? How did that look on

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Speaker 2: a day to day basis going into work.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was incredibly empowering to work there. I've got

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Speaker 1: to say I had a great time. I loved working

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Speaker 1: with a lot of women because in politics, certainly when

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Speaker 1: I was there, so we didn't work with a lot

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Speaker 1: of women. At the time, it was almost all women,

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Speaker 1: so it kind of gone. It was a real shift

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Speaker 1: from vast majority men who I was working with the

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Speaker 1: politics to vast majority women at Mama Mea. It certainly

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Speaker 1: was back then a website with a really strong feminist message,

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Speaker 1: and I enjoyed that. I enjoyed putting a gender lens

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Speaker 1: on whatever happened to be going on that day, whether

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Speaker 1: it was celebrity or current affairs or politics or sport, whatever.

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Speaker 3: It happened to be.

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Speaker 1: And we didn't have a lot of boundaries because it

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Speaker 1: was new and it was a startup. There weren't many

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Speaker 1: processes in place, not many systems that could be tricky

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Speaker 1: at times. But it also gave us enormous freedom in

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Speaker 1: that if we felt like launching something new or doing

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Speaker 1: something differently, like, we didn't have to ask anyone, We'd

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Speaker 1: just do it.

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Speaker 2: I find that fascinating. And also, like you said, there's

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Speaker 2: no boundaries to it. You can you can ultimately say

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Speaker 2: and try and get away with what you can right

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Speaker 2: in a pure way. And I found it really interesting

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Speaker 2: that you said went from a sort of male dominant

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Speaker 2: political realm to being, you know, amongst women and free.

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Speaker 2: Did it Do you felt like that give you a

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Speaker 2: sense of freedom, a sense of liberation, and a sense

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Speaker 2: of power.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, maybe a little bit.

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 1: I think I was confused at the start because I

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Speaker 1: started working in politics at twenty one, and so I

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Speaker 1: hadn't really had another grown up job in my head,

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Speaker 1: and so the first thing you do is what you

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Speaker 1: think is normal, and so working in politics, i'd been

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Speaker 1: there four or five years, and that was how I

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Speaker 1: thought the world worked, I suppose, and that's what I

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Speaker 1: was used to. And I was really used to quite

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Speaker 1: a masculine environment without recognizing it as that. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: was used to an environment where people were extremely confident.

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Speaker 1: There was a lot of bravado and you never admitted

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Speaker 1: you were wrong.

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Speaker 3: And I walked into this.

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Speaker 1: This all being politics everywhere, all these young women every day,

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Speaker 1: like sorry was the most commonly used word in the office.

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Speaker 3: It was like, Oh, I'm so sorry, do you mind

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Speaker 3: if I just go to the bathroom? It was like,

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Speaker 3: you don't to be sorry for going to please, please go?

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Speaker 1: But there was always there was so much apology, and

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Speaker 1: I think it really did start to cement a lot

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Speaker 1: of my views around what makes people feel confident and

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Speaker 1: why it is that women are made to feel not

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Speaker 1: so confident, what it is about society that makes women

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Speaker 1: not feel confident, and a lot of that is about inequality.

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Speaker 1: It does strip your confidence away a lot of the time.

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Speaker 1: And there are people who don't fall victim to that, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: but for a lot of women, I think the voice

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Speaker 1: in their head has been put there by living in

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Speaker 1: a pretty gendered society, and one of the things I

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Speaker 1: did love about that Mum and me are setting, is

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Speaker 1: I suspect similar to an all girls' school, right, was

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Speaker 1: that it did give women a place to thrive without

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Speaker 1: feeling like they were being pushed out or muscled out

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Speaker 1: because it was an all female environment.

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Speaker 2: And how important is that is, you know, to give

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Speaker 2: people the opportunity to have an all female environment so

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Speaker 2: they can gain their confidence, be around like minded people,

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Speaker 2: be around you know that home, shall we say, because

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Speaker 2: it is really important because when something goes wrong, you

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Speaker 2: go back to your own people. You know, you go

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Speaker 2: back to your own circle, You go back to your

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Speaker 2: own environment, You go back to somewhere where you feel

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Speaker 2: comfortable and confident.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I do think that, you know, at a personal level,

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Speaker 1: I do think there is something extraordinary about being in

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Speaker 1: a room full of women and I get a lot

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Speaker 1: of enjoyment and energy from that. Having said that, I

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Speaker 1: think my preference would be that we had less gender

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Speaker 1: segregated workplaces.

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Speaker 3: And interestingly, Australia is one of the worst at this.

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Speaker 1: If you look at sort of other OECD countries and stuff,

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Speaker 1: Australian workplaces are more gender segregated, which means most of

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Speaker 1: us work in a workplace that is dominated by men

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Speaker 1: or dominated by women. We don't have as many industries

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Speaker 1: professions where it's kind of even and sort of if

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Speaker 1: you think about it off the top of your head,

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Speaker 1: it tends to be true in your own life. You know,

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Speaker 1: my kid goes to a school where he hasn't had

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Speaker 1: a male teacher. Yet, there's not many male primary school

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Speaker 1: teachers other than the principal. Sometimes you don't get as

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Speaker 1: many men who are nurses. You don't get as many

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Speaker 1: men who are hairdressers. In the same way, you don't

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Speaker 1: get as many women who are electricians, or as many

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Speaker 1: women who work in finance. We have quite a gender

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Speaker 1: segregative workforce, and I don't think that's a good thing.

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Speaker 1: I think that betrays a whole lot of inequalities in

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Speaker 1: pay and things like that. But also, the best decisions

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Speaker 1: are made when you've got a group of people around

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Speaker 1: the table with very different experiences and backgrounds. It avoids

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Speaker 1: group think. It means that you can challenge one another.

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Speaker 1: Usually means you're representative of whoever you're trying to serve

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Speaker 1: or sell to, etc. So I'm kind of I've worked

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Speaker 1: in these gender segregated workplaces but actually I'd like to

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Speaker 1: see on the whole US move to a place where

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Speaker 1: it's more usual to go to work and have a

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Speaker 1: mix of people.

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Speaker 2: Love that. And so you go from this political career

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Speaker 2: to jumping in into the limelight, I suppose because you

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Speaker 2: went from behind the scenes, people are starting to know

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Speaker 2: your name, starting to recognize you, You start to build

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Speaker 2: a profile in the limelight. How did you manage that

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Speaker 2: and how did that feel when you were subconsciously doing

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Speaker 2: it without really realizing that you were right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I think you felt really good. I'm a

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Speaker 1: bit of a show off, and you know, I was

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Speaker 1: a kid who liked being in the school plays and

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Speaker 1: stuff like.

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Speaker 3: I quite enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: And also, in politics, being part of a political party

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Speaker 1: or a government means that your opinion sort of has

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Speaker 1: to fall in step with the government, right, you have

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Speaker 1: to parrot the lines of the government, even if you

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Speaker 1: personally disagree. And so I found there was a lot

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Speaker 1: of freedom in being able to have my own opinion publicly,

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Speaker 1: and so I really, I think reveled in it for

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Speaker 1: a while. But I did find that as a writer,

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Speaker 1: the more I felt like people knew who I was,

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Speaker 1: the less well I wrote because I found that I

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Speaker 1: started to write scared.

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Speaker 2: I would be writing interesting, really interesting, and.

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Speaker 1: I'd be so worried about who might read it and

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Speaker 1: who might hate it, and if I get criticized, and

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Speaker 1: I think, I certainly.

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Speaker 3: I'm interested to know what it was like for you.

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Speaker 1: I found an effect of my work for the worse

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Speaker 1: because I was I'd sort of write something really boring

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Speaker 1: because I'd sit down to write an opinion I had,

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Speaker 1: and then I'd almost pull back a little bit here

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Speaker 1: because I didn't want to upset anyone. There, Like a

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Speaker 1: little bit here, and you pull it right back till

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Speaker 1: it was just boring. It was a really vanilla.

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Speaker 2: There's no substance in it. Yeah, there's nothing in there, right.

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Speaker 1: And it did take me, I think, a good few

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Speaker 1: years to genuinely be comfortable with the fact that there

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Speaker 1: were always going to be people out there who disagreed

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Speaker 1: with me, and there were always going to.

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Speaker 3: Be people out there who didn't like me.

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Speaker 1: And I also think I kind of got there by

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Speaker 1: working with a team and watching younger team members come

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Speaker 1: through and go through the same thing and sort of

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Speaker 1: supporting them. I think it was almost like I had

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Speaker 1: to do the teaching to start believing myself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, of course. And how important is it to

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Speaker 2: stay true to yourself ultimately through writing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, enormously important. But I also think what you can't

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Speaker 1: do is give in to the idea that criticism doesn't matter.

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Speaker 1: Because criticism does matter, and you should be open to

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Speaker 1: taking criticism. But a nameless, faceless person on the internet

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Speaker 1: is not the person to take your critique from.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that I found really helpful and

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Speaker 1: that I used to try and make all the team

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Speaker 1: members do back in the day was to sit down

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Speaker 1: and assemble a group of people in your head, or

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Speaker 1: cut their pictures out of the newspaper, whatever you wanted

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Speaker 1: to do.

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Speaker 3: It could be a mix of people.

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Speaker 1: You knew, tro darts of them, and a mix of

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Speaker 1: people you didn't whose opinion you cared about, you know.

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Speaker 1: For me, it was I remember saying, like, I care

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Speaker 1: about my dad's opinion on my writing. I care about

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Speaker 1: I was very close to my former boss in politics,

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Speaker 1: Kate Elis. I cared about her opinion. I remember think

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Speaker 1: I remember saying, I think I care about Oprah's opinion.

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Speaker 1: You know, it was a mixture of people I knew

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Speaker 1: and didn't know, And so when I did get criticized,

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Speaker 1: I would, sometimes practically or sometimes just in my head,

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Speaker 1: run what i'd written or what i'd see by those people,

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Speaker 1: and I go, what would they say?

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Speaker 3: What would they think? And sometimes I call them and

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Speaker 3: find out.

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Speaker 1: And what I tried to do is narrow it down

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Speaker 1: and say, absolutely, I am up for criticism because I

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Speaker 1: can get it wrong sometimes, I can be off base sometimes,

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Speaker 1: but I'm not just taking it from everyone. I'm going

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Speaker 1: to choose a few people who I care about and

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Speaker 1: who I respect, and I'm going to think about what

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Speaker 1: they would say. And that sort of kept me honest

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Speaker 1: and made sure I was, I think, more nuanced and

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Speaker 1: careful in what I wrote and what I said publicly,

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Speaker 1: but meant that I didn't give in to the horrible

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Speaker 1: trolls on the internet.

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Speaker 2: While you're going for all of this, you've got family

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Speaker 2: in the background, right.

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Speaker 3: Well, sort of just at the start.

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Speaker 1: Actually, when I was working at MoMA me Or, I

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Speaker 1: met my husband, and yeah, we started a long distance relationship.

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Speaker 1: Originally he was in Melbourne, I was in Sydney, and

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Speaker 1: then yeah, I was working at my meal when I

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Speaker 1: felt pregnant as well, and we had our little boy.

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Speaker 2: After that, and did your work affect that relationship between

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Speaker 2: you and your husband or did you manage to find

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Speaker 2: a great balance and everything was work as a child

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Speaker 2: as well doing what you're doing. You're definitely double hatting there.

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Speaker 2: It's tough, right, oh for sure.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I think we had to figure that

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Speaker 1: out together in those early days, and I really thought

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Speaker 1: I'd just be able to go I was so naive.

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Speaker 1: I just thought I'd be able to go back to

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Speaker 1: work and work the way that I used to. I

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Speaker 1: think I was thinking of a baby like an accessory

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Speaker 1: rather than like I just really did not know what

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Speaker 1: I was getting myself into. And I had kids, like

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Speaker 1: I had my son much earlier than most of my mates,

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Speaker 1: and so I didn't really have a model of how

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Speaker 1: to do things, and so I didn't have a lot

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Speaker 1: of friends who had kids already, and I think as

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Speaker 1: a result, I just sort of was muddling along trying

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Speaker 1: to figure it out. But one of the things that

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Speaker 1: really helped for us, at least was that my husband

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Speaker 1: and I shared care pretty early, so we both went

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Speaker 1: part time when my son was about five months old.

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Speaker 1: I did the first five months and then from there,

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Speaker 1: we shared it together, and for me, that has been

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Speaker 1: the game changer in allowing both of us to have

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Speaker 1: careers that we love and also have really great relationships

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Speaker 1: with our son. And that's not an easy thing to

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Speaker 1: do because you've both got to want to do that.

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Speaker 1: It's got to be financially possible for you to do that,

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Speaker 1: and I know that's not easy for a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: but I do think in a partnership, if you can

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Speaker 1: find a way early to share the care, it.

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Speaker 3: Means no one's the expert.

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Speaker 1: Because I think the danger for mums, especially if they're

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Speaker 1: in a relationship with a man, is that you have

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Speaker 1: the baby and so there's already this like, oh, look,

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Speaker 1: you're the one that did all the things. You grew

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Speaker 1: the baby, so you must know things when actually don't

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Speaker 1: know anything. And then you become the expert in the

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Speaker 1: baby because you're the one at home. And once you're

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Speaker 1: the expert, you're always the expert. And so you know

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Speaker 1: all things, and you're in charge of all the stuff,

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Speaker 1: and you're the keeper of the knowledge, and you know

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Speaker 1: what snacks at what time, and when bottles have to happen,

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Speaker 1: and you know when's too late for a nap and

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Speaker 1: the more expertise that you hold and nobody else has

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Speaker 1: means that you have to be the one doing all

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Speaker 1: of the care. And I think what my husband and I,

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Speaker 1: probably by accident rather than design, were able to do

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Speaker 1: was that neither of us was the expert in how

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Speaker 1: to look after our son. And it means that now

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Speaker 1: where I would say we're pretty balanced as parents still,

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Speaker 1: and we've established those that shared care and that equality

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Speaker 1: between us really really early, and it's followed through our

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Speaker 1: son's whole life.

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Speaker 2: Wow, and what year was your son born in?

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Speaker 3: He was born in June of twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 2: And then in twenty seventeen, you feel like you're pregnant again,

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Speaker 2: but you have these same sort of symptoms. You think, oh,

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Speaker 2: we've got another one on the way, and you go

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Speaker 2: to the doctor to confirm. Right, take me back to

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Speaker 2: that moment in twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I I'd skipped a period and I thought,

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Speaker 1: oh God, I must be pregnant. And my first reaction,

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Speaker 1: and I will admit, was no, it's too soon, ye

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Speaker 1: ready to go?

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Speaker 3: Not yet? Not yet. I was gonna wait another year, but.

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Speaker 1: The pregnancy test at home said I wasn't pregnant, and

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Speaker 1: I thought, oh, maybe that's not right. So I went

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Speaker 1: and saw my GP. I wasn't pregnant, and at the time,

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Speaker 1: I was on a book tour, and so we sort

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Speaker 1: of thought, well, I'm probably just really anxious and sort

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Speaker 1: of stressed. My body stressed out doing a lot of

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Speaker 1: travel promoting this book, and I'm a bit nervous about

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Speaker 1: it all. Maybe that's what's going on. Also, you know,

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Speaker 1: my son was only two. I'd only stopped breastfeeding a

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Speaker 1: year or so earlier, so maybe things were just a

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Speaker 1: bit not back on schedule. Yet. I had a really

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Speaker 1: great GP who took me really seriously, which is important.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of gps in that situation would

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Speaker 1: have said, you're just a bit stressed, don't worry. She

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Speaker 1: had me do some blood tests which showed I had

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Speaker 1: no estrogen, and I was like, what was that mean?

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Speaker 1: And she said, look, I don't know, because if you

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Speaker 1: were in menopause or something early, everything else would be

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Speaker 1: different too, like your other hormones would be changing. But

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Speaker 1: it's just your estrogen. So she sent me off to

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Speaker 1: some specialists and that took a bit of time. I

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Speaker 1: think one of the gynecologists was very fancy gynecologist. It

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Speaker 1: took me like eight weeks to get in to see her,

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Speaker 1: and I also got sent to an endocrinologist, and everything

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Speaker 1: sort of happened like they were investigating, but no one

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Speaker 1: made me feel panicked. It was very much like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I we'll just figure out what's going on with this thing.

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Speaker 1: But as part of that, both of them said, you know,

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Speaker 1: we're going to do all these different tests to figure

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Speaker 1: out what's happening. We do do a brain scan, but

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Speaker 1: don't worry about that. It's just to rule things out.

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Speaker 1: And the day of the brain scan, I went in

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Speaker 1: and I had an MRI in the morning, and that

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Speaker 1: afternoon I went to lunch with a woman I didn't

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Speaker 1: know very well, and I was trying to be more present,

403
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Speaker 1: so I left my phone in the car and I

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Speaker 1: had this lunch which I was very distracted anyway, I

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Speaker 1: think because of the scan. And I got back to

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Speaker 1: the carr and I had a miscall from the GP,

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Speaker 1: the endocrinologist and the gynecologist, so I knew something was up,

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Speaker 1: and I called the gynocologist just because she'd called first,

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Speaker 1: and I called her office and they said, oh, we'd

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Speaker 1: like you to come in to talk about the results

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Speaker 1: of your scan. And I sort of got up my

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Speaker 1: calendar and was like, yeah, okay, when and they said, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: when would you like to come in? And this was

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Speaker 1: the woman I'd waited eight.

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Speaker 3: Weeks to see.

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Speaker 1: I was like, ah, now is that up to me?

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Speaker 1: And they said, you know what, why don't you just

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Speaker 1: come in now? That's when you know things are really grim.

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Speaker 1: If the very very busy important people can suddenly see

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Speaker 1: you in fifteen minutes, things are moving fast.

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Speaker 2: And did you go straight straight there?

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Speaker 3: I drove straight there.

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Speaker 1: I called my husband on the way and he said,

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Speaker 1: he just said, I'll meet you there. So he drove

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Speaker 1: and met me at her offices. And I called my

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Speaker 1: sister and just said, you need to distract me so

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Speaker 1: I don't like to drive off the road. And then

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Speaker 1: when we arrived at the gynocologist's office, she saw us

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Speaker 1: very quickly and she told me I had the scanchow

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Speaker 1: that there was a growth in my brain brain tumor,

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Speaker 1: and they thought they knew what it was, but you know,

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Speaker 1: it was a bit a bit earlier. And she was

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Speaker 1: a gynecologist and this wasn't her area of expertise, and

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Speaker 1: she referred us to a neurosurgeon.

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Speaker 2: Wow, what's your thought process from the moment you get

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Speaker 2: that phone called say listen, come in now, trying to

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Speaker 2: keep your you know, what's going on your your alarm

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Speaker 2: bells are ringing to sitting down and then ultimately passing

439
00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:46,680
Speaker 2: you on to someone else. Right, what's going through your head?

440
00:20:46,960 --> 00:20:48,520
Speaker 3: It's really hard to describe it.

441
00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:54,160
Speaker 1: I didn't take in anything she said after the word

442
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,439
Speaker 1: she used was lesion. She said, there's a lesion on

443
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,879
Speaker 1: your brain. And after that I didn't take anything in

444
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 1: for a bit because I was like, lesion, isn't lesion

445
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:03,240
Speaker 1: a cut?

446
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:05,200
Speaker 3: And then I was like, how did I cut my brain?

447
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:08,959
Speaker 1: And so I asked for clarification and she said, oh,

448
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:11,520
Speaker 1: it's like a growth, and my husband said like a tumor.

449
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:16,240
Speaker 1: And after that, I don't really remember anything that happened

450
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 1: in that appointment. Thank goodness, my husband was there actually

451
00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,879
Speaker 1: listened to some of what was happening. The only thing

452
00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:26,840
Speaker 1: I can say it was just sheer panic, not panic

453
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,440
Speaker 1: that I came down from, Like it was like that

454
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,240
Speaker 1: that that high. I'm someone who's quite scared of heights.

455
00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 1: Felt that's the closest I felt to it is having

456
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:40,160
Speaker 1: been up somewhere very very very high and being told

457
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,879
Speaker 1: to jump. I imagine that's how I would have, But

458
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 1: I didn't come down like I felt like I was

459
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 1: in that heightened state for weeks after that, and it

460
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 1: just there was no relief or release. Because I'm someone

461
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:54,840
Speaker 1: who is a real problem solver and I like to

462
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 1: think about a problem too. I can come to a

463
00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:00,400
Speaker 1: solution or a plan, and you can't think your way

464
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 1: out of a brain tumor. There's no Once you get

465
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:05,520
Speaker 1: to what if I die of because of this brain tumor,

466
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 1: there's no there's no solution to that, right, And I

467
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,359
Speaker 1: sort of could look got trapped in this panic loop.

468
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,679
Speaker 2: I think, just talk to me about the rarity of

469
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,880
Speaker 2: the of the tumor. Yeah, and what your your your

470
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 2: ultimatums were, because you know you had basically one one

471
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:24,040
Speaker 2: choice and one choice only. Yeah, And when did when

472
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,600
Speaker 2: did your mind start to accept what was going on?

473
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 1: So I ended up with a neurosurgeon who was outstanding

474
00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 1: and he was very clear with me, and I think

475
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 1: the reason I liked him so much was he didn't sugarcoat,

476
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,119
Speaker 1: and so I felt like, Okay, he's not lying to me.

477
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:46,680
Speaker 1: I had this real fear that people would go, oh,

478
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,480
Speaker 1: young mum, will just soften the blows of things, which

479
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:50,959
Speaker 1: they were not not going to do.

480
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 3: But that was my fear.

481
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:54,640
Speaker 1: And he was so straightforward and black and white about

482
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 1: everything I felt.

483
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:56,359
Speaker 3: I felt.

484
00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 1: I felt a lot of trust with him, and he

485
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:00,720
Speaker 1: said to me that the first time I met him,

486
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: he said, he told me that the tumor was very unusual.

487
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,480
Speaker 1: What I have is called a cranio for ingioma, which

488
00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 1: happens to about everyone in one in a million to

489
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,320
Speaker 1: one and a half million people. You're born with it,

490
00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:16,720
Speaker 1: but you're just born with a couple of extra cells,

491
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 1: so you wouldn't be able to see it on a

492
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 1: scan until it starts to grow, and for most people

493
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,280
Speaker 1: it grows when they're a kid, so I was kind

494
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,360
Speaker 1: of behind, and I'm really lucky that it didn't grow

495
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 1: when i was a kid. But he said to me

496
00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: in that very first appointment, he said, what you have

497
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 1: is extremely serious and the next part of this process

498
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 1: is going to be incredibly hard, and you're going to

499
00:23:43,119 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 1: have to be incredibly strong, but we are going to

500
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,280
Speaker 1: get you through this. And I held on to that

501
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,159
Speaker 1: for years to come. I would go back to myself

502
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: and say, he said, we're going to get me through this.

503
00:23:56,920 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: And I'm a kid who trusts authority. Oh you know,

504
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 1: I worked in politics, think about authority, and I respect authority.

505
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:05,520
Speaker 2: I was like, right, he knows.

506
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:09,040
Speaker 1: So I listened to him and that that definitely helped me.

507
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: But if I'm honest in terms of that panic head space,

508
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,680
Speaker 1: I genuinely don't think I came out of it until

509
00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: after the surgery. I think I was close to that

510
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:20,879
Speaker 1: state for a couple of months.

511
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,200
Speaker 2: And it is so important. It's you know, the old saying,

512
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 2: it's not it's not what you say, it's how you

513
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 2: say it. Just those few words are so powerful in

514
00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 2: that moment. And like you said, putting your trust into

515
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 2: someone is all that you had, the only option that

516
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,679
Speaker 2: you had. You go into surgery. What does that look like?

517
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 2: What are they what are they doing? Are they cutting part?

518
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 2: Are your brain away? And you know? Is it? Is it?

519
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 2: Touch and go? How bad is the tumor? How how

520
00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 2: grown is the tumor?

521
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it was when they found it, it was

522
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 1: about two and a half centimeters by one and a

523
00:24:53,440 --> 00:24:59,680
Speaker 1: half centimeters. My tumor grows in a really densely populated

524
00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 1: part of the brain. So a lot of the brain

525
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: is gray matter, right, it doesn't really do anything you

526
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 1: don't want to. You still don't want to tumor there either,

527
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:09,360
Speaker 1: but you definitely don't want a tumor where it's right

528
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 1: in the middle of all the important stuff. And for

529
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: me that was the case. So my tumor grows between

530
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 1: just underneath the optic chiasm, which is sort of where

531
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: your eyesight crosses over, like the I'm going to explain

532
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 1: this terribly, but like the bit that goes to both

533
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,479
Speaker 1: of your eyes, where it touches in the middle. It

534
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: grows right underneath the hypothalamus, which is responsible for hunger, first, metabolism,

535
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 1: and a whole bunch of other things.

536
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 3: You couldn't live without your hypothalamus.

537
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 1: And then just above the petuitary gland, which is in

538
00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,359
Speaker 1: charge of all your hormones, which is why my period

539
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 1: had stopped and I had no estrogen. The blood supply

540
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 1: to my petuitary was being cut off. So that first

541
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 1: surgery for me, I've just done a spoiler alert that

542
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:54,360
Speaker 1: it was the.

543
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 3: First, which has to be a second.

544
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 1: That first surgery for me, like if I can take

545
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 1: myself out of it for a moment. I still am

546
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: amazed by what doctors can do. So to access my tumor,

547
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,400
Speaker 1: they went up through my nose. So they went up

548
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 1: through my nose with cameras as well as instruments. They

549
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: cut a small hole in my skull once they got

550
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 1: to that point, and they operated on my brain through there,

551
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,520
Speaker 1: which is a less invasive brain surgery.

552
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 2: Well so rather than cutting your head open, yeah, they

553
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:27,040
Speaker 2: went up through your nose.

554
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, which was still I remember when they said that,

555
00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:32,919
Speaker 1: I was like what, But I didn't even know that

556
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: they could do that. But it's quite common now, and

557
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 1: if possible, that's how they'll If that's where they can

558
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: get to the tumor best, that's what they'll do. I

559
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: think the whole theme of my health journey is naive

560
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 1: to like, I just didn't know what I was in for.

561
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: I was so focused on the possibility that I might

562
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: not survive the surgery. I didn't really understand the complexity

563
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 1: of recovery and what was going to be ahead of

564
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: me because I was not experiencing any symptoms except having

565
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,880
Speaker 1: not had a period. I ran ten K's the day

566
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: before I went into the hospital. I was still I think,

567
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 1: up until the night before, expecting someone to say, oh, no,

568
00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 1: we mixed up.

569
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 2: A scared yeah, yeah, we've got it wrong. Yeah yeah, yeah.

570
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: There was this feeling of like, how could I possibly

571
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 1: be sick? I don't feel sick.

572
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 2: And sometimes that's the best way to tackle things sometimes,

573
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 2: you know, it's you know, when you overthink, over analyze

574
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: and overstress, and you know, it can really drain you, you know,

575
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:28,840
Speaker 2: psychologically and emotionally and physically.

576
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: You know, it reminds me after that, after that surgery,

577
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 1: it was would have been only been a couple maybe

578
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 1: two days after that surgery. I remember my surgeon came

579
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 1: around and I hadn't stood up yet, and he got

580
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: very grumpy with everyone and was like, why isn't she standing?

581
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 1: And I was looking at him being like, oh, because

582
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: I had brain surgery, and but he was like, no,

583
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 1: I want to standing. I want her up and standing

584
00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: before the end of the day, because it is true

585
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,040
Speaker 1: that the sooner you're up and standing and moving and walking,

586
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: the better for your recovery. But at the time, I

587
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 1: remember thinking, I don't even know if I can, like yeah,

588
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:01,400
Speaker 1: but I remember, but they got everyone on either side

589
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: of me, and they had my husband on one side

590
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: my sister on the other and nurses holding all like

591
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:06,760
Speaker 1: I had so many cords coming out of me still

592
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:10,199
Speaker 1: in front of me, and the sort of helped me

593
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,120
Speaker 1: slide off the bed and stand up. And as soon

594
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 1: as I did, I started vomiting and it was pitch

595
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: black like itoked. It looked like tar to me, and

596
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 1: I remember just thinking, oh, this is it now, this

597
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,440
Speaker 1: is I'm dying like this. It was sheer panic because

598
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 1: it was black, and my sister, like I remember, she

599
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: grab clenched my arm and so I looked at her

600
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: and she said, this is fine. This is completely normal.

601
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: They knew this was going to happen. You just have

602
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 1: to ride it out. And she was like rubbing my

603
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:44,479
Speaker 1: back and she was one hundred percent right, it is

604
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: completely normal. I swallowed a lot of blood during surgery

605
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 1: and it was just dried. It was dried blood coming up,

606
00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: which is gross. Sorry everybody, But she didn't know that.

607
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 1: She had no idea.

608
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,239
Speaker 3: She just said that she's made it up.

609
00:28:57,480 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 2: Oh she did.

610
00:28:58,280 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: She was just trying to keep me calm because she

611
00:29:00,320 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: also thought it was like and she was like better

612
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,160
Speaker 1: to die, horb. Yeah, And you know, I do think

613
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: people sometimes our naivety does protect us, and sometimes that

614
00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: includes not realizing what we're capable of. And my sister

615
00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: would have been one of those people. You know, she's

616
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 1: a baby of the family. She's the one we always

617
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: looked after, and with me not being the one doing

618
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 1: the looking after, she really stepped up in the most

619
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: incredible way for my whole family. She supported everyone, including me,

620
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes we don't know what we can

621
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: do until we're put in the circumstance where there's no

622
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: choice anymore.

623
00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:47,520
Speaker 2: What does the recovery look like? Because, like you said,

624
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, you find yourself on a on

625
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 2: a you know, for in for a second operation. How

626
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: does that journey look up to that second op?

627
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:58,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, the recovery was tough, uh.

628
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 1: Not, not least of which that I had quite a

629
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 1: weak nose afterwards because they.

630
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 2: Had to take a lot of cart can imagine kill

631
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 2: pulled the tumor from your from your brain through your

632
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 2: nose and I don't put it in mid.

633
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 1: Wow, But to do that, they had to take a

634
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: bit of cartilage out to just make more space I

635
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: suppose in my nose. And the recovery was going all right,

636
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:27,719
Speaker 1: It was hard and I was so tired, and at

637
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 1: that stage they just left it with the surgery. So

638
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:32,520
Speaker 1: it was a very much wait and see what happens

639
00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 1: next kind of situation. But my two and a half

640
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: year old flew a spider Man dole into my nose

641
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: by accident, and my whole nose just collapsed.

642
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 2: It was like through a spider Man dole.

643
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it was.

644
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: And then the spider Man happened, and it happened over

645
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,680
Speaker 1: a few days. It was like a tent and you

646
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: just like you pull the poles out of it and it.

647
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,120
Speaker 3: Just sort of crum crumble.

648
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: My nose just sort of crumpled, and I I remember saying,

649
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: should I get it fixed?

650
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 3: And my husband was like, yeah.

651
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 1: But not now, Like we're just we've got bigger things

652
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: to deal with than the nose. We'll deal with that

653
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: another time. But I think that really did add to

654
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: my sense of like like it was this another thing,

655
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,200
Speaker 1: another thing. There was that sort of feeling nonetheless like

656
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: we had a huge party. One of the things I

657
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: had wanted was like I'm going to get through this

658
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:24,040
Speaker 1: and we're gonna have.

659
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 3: A big party. We had a big party.

660
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 2: In so you still got the all clear, Yes, it's out,

661
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: it's done.

662
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 1: They were like, we've left a little bit in there

663
00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: because it was too dangerous to take it out. But

664
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: they weren't expecting it to grow again. They said, good odds,

665
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 1: we think it's going to be fine from here. We

666
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: had this huge party. I remember, it was awesome. My

667
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 1: husband I bought a house and this is all in

668
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,959
Speaker 1: a few months, and we moved into the house on

669
00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 1: the Saturday. We unpacked a bit on the Sunday, and

670
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: then on the Monday they told me it had grown back,

671
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: and it had grown back really aggressively, so we had

672
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: to move quite fast.

673
00:31:58,320 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 2: Oh wow.

674
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:00,960
Speaker 1: In my head, I was it's like when you prune

675
00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:02,720
Speaker 1: the bushes outside the house and then they grow. But

676
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 1: I'm sure that's not how it works.

677
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 2: But that was yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

678
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 1: Like it just yeah, it had grown back quite aggressively.

679
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: I had my first surgery in January. Formal recovery was

680
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 1: done by end of March, and they told me that

681
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: the first weekend of July, so it was it wasn't long.

682
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 1: I was back in hospital again in September.

683
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, where's your head space right now? When they tell

684
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 2: you again that it's going back. Not only is it

685
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 2: going back, but it's aggressive. We need to get you

686
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 2: in a sap. Where's your head space go? Just devastating, devastation.

687
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: It wasn't the same shock, of course, because it's not possible,

688
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 1: because I had some adjustment, but it was just devastation.

689
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: And I remember saying, I can't do it again, like

690
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:44,400
Speaker 1: I didn't feel strong anymore. I went into that first

691
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: one being a really fit, healthy, strong.

692
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 2: Thirty, but I hadn't.

693
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 1: I hadn't recovered I recovered that much and in only

694
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:58,160
Speaker 1: six months, and I remember just thinking I can't, Like I.

695
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 3: How will I do it? I don't feel strong.

696
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:03,480
Speaker 1: I remember saying I don't feel strong, and I think

697
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 1: I meant that in every sense of the word. I

698
00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 1: didn't feel strong enough. But I was less scared, I

699
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: will say I was. I was terrified still, but I

700
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: had less of this certain sense that I would not

701
00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: be able to survive the surgery. I was, you know,

702
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 1: I think I thought, well, I've done it before, so

703
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: I can do it again, and that that gave me

704
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 1: more confidence, which is it probably not very logical, but

705
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 1: I did have this sense of like my body got

706
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: through it, so it must be able to do it again,

707
00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 1: and that probably didn't take into account how intense that

708
00:33:35,880 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: surgery was going to be, and that surgery was life changing, because.

709
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 3: After that surgery, I acquired.

710
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: Like quite a significant brain injury, which was necessary like that,

711
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:49,640
Speaker 1: they had no choice to cut the tumor out.

712
00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 3: They had to. They had to do that.

713
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 2: So they left the part of the tumor that they

714
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 2: thought would be okay that was attached a certain part

715
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 2: of the brain.

716
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 3: That to preserve the brain if they got wrong.

717
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 2: Then and that it could potentially have devastating effects on you.

718
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 2: But now they had to take that risk. They had

719
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 2: to cut it all out and just take away the

720
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 2: risk of it ever ever being not not being there

721
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 2: but ever growing again.

722
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, So they took probably ninety eight percent of it.

723
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: They left the two percent that was directly on my

724
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 1: optic chiasm because if they'd taken that, I would have

725
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 1: been blind. So they chose not to. But they took

726
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: everything else, which meant I lost progressively took a bit

727
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: of time, but I lost all hormone function in the

728
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 1: pituitary gland, which is really considerable impact on your life.

729
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: It means I take seven eight types of medication every day.

730
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,960
Speaker 1: I don't make cortisol anymore, which is the big one,

731
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 1: because you can't you can't be alive without cortisol. My

732
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:51,800
Speaker 1: body doesn't balance water on its own, and so without medication,

733
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: I would just be ferociously thirsty and but wouldn't make

734
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: your own properly, Like I'd just drink lots of water

735
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: and then I just it would come out. But I

736
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 1: would not My body would do what it needed to do,

737
00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: and so I would eventually just dehydrate entirely and die

738
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: from that if I didn't have the medication. I don't

739
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,479
Speaker 1: make estrogen or testosterone or growth hormone or prolactin, there's

740
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: so many of them. Progesterone and so just completely changed

741
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 1: my life, completely change my life.

742
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 2: Wow, And how has that changed your outlook on life?

743
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: I would say, now, you know, five years after that,

744
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: I am somewhere back near that headspace again. I don't

745
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,479
Speaker 1: feel indestructible, but I feel like I have the same

746
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: enthusiasm and enjoyment and determination for life. But I will

747
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 1: say it took a really long time to get there,

748
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,319
Speaker 1: Like I had a good few years of really not

749
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 1: being myself.

750
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 2: How did you get through that to be where you

751
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 2: are today?

752
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 3: Yeah?

753
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: To be honest, I think I had to get to acceptance.

754
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: You know, they talk about the stages of grief and

755
00:35:57,480 --> 00:36:01,919
Speaker 1: the stages of grief. I didn't do them in order.

756
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 1: I just kept like bobbing around in them all and

757
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 1: not getting to acceptance, going backwards and you know, going

758
00:36:06,800 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: through the rage period and going through the bargaining period,

759
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 1: going through the denial. I just seem to go back

760
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: and forth. And I think I did that for a

761
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: good few years. It didn't help that I came out

762
00:36:15,680 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 1: of treatment into a pandemic and I live in Melbourne,

763
00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: so it'd got locked in my house for a while.

764
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 3: That didn't help. But I and.

765
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 1: I won't say that there were moments of joy in

766
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:28,040
Speaker 1: those years. There were, right, like it's never all dark

767
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:32,720
Speaker 1: or all light, but I hadn't accepted what had happened

768
00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:35,400
Speaker 1: to me. I kept putting myself in hospital because I

769
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 1: didn't really accept my own limits. I'd keep trying to

770
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: push and do the things that I live the way

771
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 1: I used to live, and do things the way I

772
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 1: used to do things, and then it would end up

773
00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: being very dangerous. And I think it did take me

774
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 1: a good couple of years to get to the point

775
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: of going. You know, I was someone who believed I

776
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,720
Speaker 1: was living life without limits, that I could do anything,

777
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 1: and to accept that there were some really firm limits

778
00:36:59,560 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: for me. That didn't mean I couldn't do a whole

779
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: bunch of other things, but that I did have to

780
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 1: work within those limits or I wouldn't survive. And that

781
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:10,439
Speaker 1: sounds really negative, but I actually think it was really

782
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 1: helpful for me once I finally reframed and went, Okay,

783
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 1: these limits aren't everything, but they are this, and I

784
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: have to respect that or I'm not respecting what my

785
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 1: body can do. Otherwise I'm expecting my body to fly.

786
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 1: None of us are sitting here thinking I can fly.

787
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: My body can't do things anymore. It's never going to

788
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: be able to do those things. Unless there's some huge

789
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: scientific revolution. It's never going to be able to do

790
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: those things again. So what is possible for me?

791
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 3: Knowing that?

792
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 1: And I think focusing on what is possible for me

793
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:40,960
Speaker 1: knowing that has been really helpful.

794
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 2: How did it affect your family and your little one

795
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 2: and your husband and how's that relationship today?

796
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, my husband was just extraordinary.

797
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 1: I think it was my mum who said he was

798
00:37:57,600 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 1: worth marrying just for the first few weeks after I

799
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:00,200
Speaker 1: got die.

800
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 3: He knowsed to nothing else. She was like, it was

801
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:03,080
Speaker 3: worth it. For those three weeks.

802
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:08,240
Speaker 1: He was so steady, and he figured out really quickly

803
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 1: what I needed. And that's not what everyone needs, but

804
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 1: what I needed was like a fierce belief I was

805
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: going to be okay. I needed to be surrounded by that.

806
00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: That's what worked for me. I think for some people

807
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: that would be quite distressing, but for me, that's what

808
00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 1: I needed.

809
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 3: And so he did that.

810
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: And I'm sure he had moments with other people and

811
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,919
Speaker 1: away from me where he had an enormous amount of doubt.

812
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 1: He must have, but he just did not show that.

813
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: After that first week. He never cried in front of me.

814
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,320
Speaker 1: He never showed Whenever I would bring things up, he

815
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: would be like, no, I'm not worried about that, because

816
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: you're going to be fine. And he was so certain,

817
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:46,240
Speaker 1: and it was I think like it was his belief

818
00:38:46,280 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 1: in me being okay that made me believe it was true.

819
00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: But I think after a couple of years of that,

820
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: once I was through the worst of it living in

821
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,320
Speaker 1: that lockdown in Melbourne, I think that really affected him.

822
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: You know, he'd sort of been so stoic and not

823
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,399
Speaker 1: really gotten to fall apart at all, and I think

824
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 1: it caught up with him for a bit.

825
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 3: I think now he's doing really.

826
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,720
Speaker 1: Well, but I think he had a tough period then

827
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,720
Speaker 1: it was almost like it was delayed because he couldn't

828
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: feel the trauma at the time because he had a

829
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,080
Speaker 1: job to do. Yes, exactly, once I was okay, he

830
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: could come for par when I was I've written this

831
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:24,720
Speaker 1: book with my friend Rosie.

832
00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, broken brains, Yes, we're going to beat.

833
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,120
Speaker 1: It, thank you, which is about which is about all

834
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 1: of this. But in that book, I talked to a

835
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: whole lot of experts about the experience of people who

836
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 1: are unwell, and one of the questions I was quite

837
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 1: scared to ask was around what happens to the children

838
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:44,160
Speaker 1: of people who are quite unwell and how does that

839
00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: affect those kids, because I kind of didn't want to know. Actually,

840
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,960
Speaker 1: for kids who are careers to their parents, not necessarily

841
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,560
Speaker 1: primary carers, where it's all on that kid's shoulders, but

842
00:39:55,640 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 1: if they're a secondary care if they're sort of helping

843
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: with the care but they're not the main one, it

844
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 1: can be extraordinary for them. Most of the outcomes are

845
00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: positive that those kids have greater sense of responsibility, greater

846
00:40:10,280 --> 00:40:16,160
Speaker 1: capacity for empathy, that they're more likely to understand the

847
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 1: importance of putting others first, that they're more helpful, they

848
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,960
Speaker 1: have a greater sense of self and a sense of purpose.

849
00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,759
Speaker 1: And I remember hearing about this from a psychologist, a

850
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 1: child psychologist, when I was writing.

851
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,880
Speaker 3: The book, and just thinking, that's my kid. You're just

852
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:31,919
Speaker 3: describing my kids.

853
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: Who is that he's that he grew up around all

854
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 1: of this, and he grew up at two not being

855
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: the person in the house who was first. You know,

856
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: his needs were second, because he was constantly being told

857
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: you gotta be quiet because mum's resting, or you know,

858
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 1: got to not fly Spider Man into Mum's head.

859
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:51,439
Speaker 2: That stuff. For a kid to compute that at that age,

860
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 2: because it's all about me, me, me, me me, they

861
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,279
Speaker 2: should be Yeah, of course, of course, and he sort

862
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 2: of didn't get to be.

863
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 1: But as a result, he is such a compassionate and

864
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: kind kid. And you know, I always worry we're going

865
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 1: to see the damage that me being sick has done

866
00:41:06,719 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 1: to him, But he's nine going on ten, and I

867
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:11,600
Speaker 1: don't see it yet. All I see is that he's

868
00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 1: just an extraordinary person as a result.

869
00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 2: With parents like yourself, absolutely positive that he's going to

870
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 2: grow up driven, positive, compassionate and pathetic like you are.

871
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 2: So a final question for you, what is next for you?

872
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: That's really that's the first time in my life I

873
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: think that's a really hard question to answer because I

874
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: really wanted to write this book, and now it's done, and.

875
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 3: I'm going to now I'm going to figure out.

876
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,840
Speaker 2: What to do next, your next goal, your next purpose.

877
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,760
Speaker 1: Because I've written it with my friend Rosie, who experienced

878
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 1: some pretty horrific childhood trauma, and we look at her

879
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:49,279
Speaker 1: experience of mental illness and mine of physical illness, and

880
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: how she has had experience of physical ill health as

881
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,400
Speaker 1: the result of her mental health, and I've had an

882
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:56,640
Speaker 1: experience of mental ill health as a result of what

883
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,879
Speaker 1: I've gone through. And we've sort of explored this false

884
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: binary we all come up with where it's like, oh,

885
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:04,320
Speaker 1: the mentals over here and the physicals over there, Like

886
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,759
Speaker 1: they're both happening in your body. In my case, they're

887
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: both happening in the brain. These lines we draw around them,

888
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 1: these barriers, they might be helpful for diagnosis and things

889
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: like that, but they're not helpful as a human being.

890
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,879
Speaker 1: And it's been such a joy sort of having those conversations.

891
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: And I've found that for a lot of people with

892
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: mental health challenges, they found my experience quite validating because

893
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: I tell you, I've been through some of the hardest

894
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: physical stuff a human body can go through. And I

895
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:33,360
Speaker 1: would have brain surgery ten times over again before I

896
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,720
Speaker 1: had to go through that period of being mentally unwell

897
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: before the first surgery. That was the worst thing I've

898
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 1: ever done. It was harder than the physical way harder.

899
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 1: And I know that's helped a lot of people who

900
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 1: felt like their experience wasn't significant or relevant or important.

901
00:42:50,320 --> 00:42:52,279
Speaker 1: So that's a real joy, I think being allowed to

902
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 1: talk about this book finally rather than.

903
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 3: Just write it.

904
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 2: And why can we get the book?

905
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 1: Do you know?

906
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 3: Oh, you should be able to get everywhere everywhere, bad bookstores, like.

907
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 2: I know my books have ended up in some little

908
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 2: bookstores and you know, probably probably free now. But Jimiller,

909
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 2: thank you so much. Listen, best of luck with everything

910
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:14,240
Speaker 2: you do, and send my love to your family.

911
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 3: Of course, thank you, thank you, thank you for your

912
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 3: wonderful questions.

913
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 2: Jimiller's book is called Broken Brains and it's out now.

914
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 2: You can also follow Jumilla on Instagram. I'll put all

915
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 2: the details in the show notes. Thanks for joining me

916
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: on this episode of Headgame. If you love listening to

917
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:37,480
Speaker 2: this podcast, please share it with a friend, or you

918
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,799
Speaker 2: can leave me a review on your favorite listening app.

919
00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 2: I'm Att Middleton. Catch you in the next episode.