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Speaker 1: Professor Bill Sullivan. Welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Hi Paul, it's great to be here.

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Speaker 3: And I think this is going to be the first

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Speaker 3: podcast Bill that my daughter is excited about.

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Speaker 1: I haven't that lot. Yes, I have an eighteen.

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Speaker 3: Year old daughter who is in her last year of

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Speaker 3: high school and is about to go to university.

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Speaker 1: And she is obsessed with biology to.

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Speaker 3: The point where she did her exams early in year

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Speaker 3: eleven rather than year twelve. We've got a slightly different

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Speaker 3: system than you guys, and in her last biology class

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Speaker 3: she cried, it was that upset. And she's off the

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Speaker 3: university to study microbiology. And you have a PhD in

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Speaker 3: sale and molecular biology.

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Speaker 1: Is that correct?

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Speaker 2: That's right, it's in selling molecular biology. But I am

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Speaker 2: in a microbiology department, so you know that knowledge from

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Speaker 2: my PhD has extended itself into looking into microbiology. And

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Speaker 2: it sounds like that's exactly what your daughter is interested in.

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Speaker 2: So good luck to her. I can tell her that

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Speaker 2: it's been fascinating field for me for decades, and I

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Speaker 2: hope she gets as much joy from it as I did.

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Speaker 3: And so tell me what do you used to currently teach?

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Speaker 3: What sort of classes? Do you teach at the university,

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Speaker 3: And I.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I teach a lot of microbiology, so we deal

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Speaker 2: with a lot of microbes, everything from viruses to bacteria

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Speaker 2: to parasites. And I also teach lectures on the pharmacological

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Speaker 2: aspect of that, so how we utilize drugs and develop

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Speaker 2: new drugs to combat some of these infections that are

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Speaker 2: caused by the various germs we talked.

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Speaker 3: About, ah, and it must have been in a very

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Speaker 3: exciting time whenever COVID kit might you're to follow, were.

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Speaker 2: We were very very busy, not in the sense that

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Speaker 2: we were working in the lab because those were shut

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Speaker 2: down for some time, but infectious disease, which generally doesn't

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Speaker 2: get a lot of attention in a country like the US,

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Speaker 2: and I imagine Australia as well, it suddenly was on

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Speaker 2: everybody's radar for obvious reasons, and we were fielding all

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Speaker 2: sorts of calls and requests for information to help navigate

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Speaker 2: people through this terribly uncertain time. So yeah, absolutely absolutely.

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Speaker 3: And you so, you know, you did a lot of

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Speaker 3: science outreach, and so what inspired you to move out

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Speaker 3: of the lab and move out of the classroom to

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Speaker 3: start talking more to the general public about science and

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Speaker 3: science communication.

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Speaker 2: Well that's what got me interested in science when I

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Speaker 2: was a young kid and adolescent. Were these science communicators

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Speaker 2: like you know Carl Sagan for example. He's the one

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Speaker 2: that my generation is familiar with, and he was just

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Speaker 2: a brilliant communicator explaining principles that are quite complicated in

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Speaker 2: very poetic and understandable terms. And then Bill Nye came

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Speaker 2: along and some others as well that were kind of

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Speaker 2: inspirations to step out of the Ivory tower once in

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Speaker 2: a while and tell people what you're working on. Especially

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Speaker 2: when you're dealing with public health items like infectious disease,

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Speaker 2: that information has to be communicated to the public so

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Speaker 2: that we can ensure our society doesn't implode and have

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Speaker 2: dramatically bad consequences from some pandemic. So it also feeds

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Speaker 2: back when the work we do. We have to remind

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Speaker 2: the public and the government officials that funding basic science

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Speaker 2: research is critically important. It is fueling the pipeline for

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Speaker 2: the discovery that are going to be coming down the

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Speaker 2: road to cure all sorts of diseases or at least

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Speaker 2: get some better treatments for them. And if we don't

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Speaker 2: have that revenue invested in the process, which, believe it

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Speaker 2: or not, is really difficult to do. There's not a

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Speaker 2: lot of money being invested in diseases and disorders and

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Speaker 2: research for it. So that component also plays into my

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Speaker 2: motivation for getting out there and explaining why it is

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Speaker 2: so critically important to engage in scientific research.

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Speaker 1: Now, let's talk about human behavior.

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Speaker 2: So my favorite subject.

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Speaker 3: The psychologists would tell you that they've got human behavior neiled.

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Speaker 3: But you've written a book called Police to Meet Me,

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Speaker 3: and you talk about a lot of hidden forces that

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Speaker 3: kind of underpin what we do, what we feel, how

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Speaker 3: we believe, and what are some of those hidden forces

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Speaker 3: that a sheep who we are with our us really

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Speaker 3: knowing about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So that actually stems from the research that's been

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Speaker 2: ongoing in my lab for years now. We study this

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Speaker 2: parasite called toxoplasma gandhia.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's an interesting parasite.

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Speaker 2: Ah, you've heard of it?

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Speaker 1: Yes, And can you tell our listeners about this?

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Speaker 2: And I'm not trying to evade your question. I will

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Speaker 2: certainly get to the hidden forces, but to better understand them.

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Speaker 2: It was this toxoplasma parasite and our research on it

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Speaker 2: that ultimately led to the ideas behind the book. So

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Speaker 2: why in the world would I mentioned this crazy parasite

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Speaker 2: in the context of human behavior. Several reasons. Toxoplasma is

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Speaker 2: an extremely common parasite of all animals, including human beings,

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Speaker 2: and it's actually present in the brains of one third

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Speaker 2: of the human population, which is just staggering number of people,

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Speaker 2: right like three billion people if those ass you know

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Speaker 2: are accurate, And it's all around the world. You know,

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Speaker 2: there's not like any corner of the globe where this

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Speaker 2: parasite hasn't gotten into And the reason why is because

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Speaker 2: it is transmitted through multiple different mechanisms. The first one

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Speaker 2: is the cat. So any kind of cat, when it's

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Speaker 2: infected with this toxoplasma parasite, will shed the parasite eggs

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Speaker 2: into the litter box or the garden, the sandbox, anywhere

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Speaker 2: in the environment. And these parasite eggs are stable for

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Speaker 2: years out in the environment, and they can be picked

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Speaker 2: up by other animals and infect them, and they can

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Speaker 2: certainly be picked up by humans and infect us. We

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Speaker 2: can get the parasite directly from the cat, or we

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Speaker 2: can get it from undercooked meats. You know, animals that

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Speaker 2: also got infected with the parasite. If we don't cook

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Speaker 2: the meat sufficiently, the parasite can infect us that way

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Speaker 2: as well. So it's hugely common. But it doesn't cause

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Speaker 2: any over disease. You know, you won't feel anything more

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Speaker 2: than a mild flu when you become infected with this parasite.

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Speaker 2: And that's why for years it was kind of put

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Speaker 2: on the back burner. This parasite obviously isn't causing a

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Speaker 2: health crisis. Most people aren't even aware that they have it.

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Speaker 2: But then in the eighties and nineties, toxoplasma became one

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Speaker 2: of the number one killers of AIDS patients because when

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Speaker 2: your immune system deteriorates, the parasite then can become a

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Speaker 2: lethal infection, which basically told us that this parasite never

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Speaker 2: goes away. It infects us and it stays in the body,

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Speaker 2: probably for the rest of your life. And it likes

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Speaker 2: to hide out in the brain and the heart and

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Speaker 2: skelet to muscle tissue. So when you hear that there's

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Speaker 2: a parasite hiding out in your brain, it makes you

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Speaker 2: wonder what in the world could this thing be doing.

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Speaker 2: And that is I'm sorry, Paul, that is a very

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Speaker 2: long winded answer to one of the hidden forces that

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Speaker 2: might be influencing human behavior. There's very well documented studies

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Speaker 2: in mice and rats, as well as some non human

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Speaker 2: primates and now even wolves, that when they are infected

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Speaker 2: with this parasite, they don't get sick, but the parasite

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Speaker 2: hides in their brain for the rest of their lives

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Speaker 2: and starts to instigate risk taking behavior in those infected organisms.

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Speaker 2: And these are very well documented studies and animals that

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Speaker 2: I've found endlessly fascinating. We've conducted some of these behavioral

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Speaker 2: essays ourselves, and when we infect mice with this parasite,

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Speaker 2: it survives the initial infection just fine. And if you

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Speaker 2: look at the mouse, it looks perfectly normal, okay, But

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Speaker 2: if you study its behavior, it's very different. It is hypermodal,

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Speaker 2: which means it moves around a lot more than usual,

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Speaker 2: it takes a lot more risks. And one of the

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Speaker 2: most odd ball findings that actually makes evolutionary sense is

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Speaker 2: that these mice are no longer afraid of cats.

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Speaker 1: Crazy.

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Speaker 2: I'm no longer afraid of anything, actually, but when you

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Speaker 2: put cats into the picture, you get a very interesting

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Speaker 2: and elegant evolutionary story where this parasite has figured out

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Speaker 2: a way to kind of re engineer the mammalian brain,

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Speaker 2: if you will, in a way that makes it takes

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Speaker 2: more risks and it is more likely to be eaten

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Speaker 2: by its major predator, and it gets into the cat,

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Speaker 2: where it really wants to go, because the cat is

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Speaker 2: the only organism on the planet where the parasite can

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Speaker 2: complete the sexual stage of its life cycle and be

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Speaker 2: spread around in the form of those sturdy eggs that

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Speaker 2: I talked about at the beginning of the conversation.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: So I knew that the parasite got into the mice,

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Speaker 3: and I knew that it impacted their behavior and reduced

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Speaker 3: their fear of cats. But I didn't realize that the

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Speaker 3: whole driver was that was completing the sexual cycle.

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Speaker 1: How clever is that?

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Speaker 2: It isn't that amazing. It's evolution has all kinds of

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Speaker 2: time to work with. Okay, we're talking about millions of years,

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Speaker 2: So maybe when you consider the fact that it took

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Speaker 2: millions of years to hone this behavior, it might not

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Speaker 2: look so miraculous. But I have to admit when I

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Speaker 2: first learned about it, just like you, I was blown away.

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Speaker 2: My mind was blown and it's just really clever on

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Speaker 2: the part of this toxoplasma parasite to be able to

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Speaker 2: do this. And it raises the next logical question, which

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Speaker 2: if three billion people have this parasite in their heads,

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Speaker 2: what might be happening to their behavior if anything. And

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Speaker 2: those studies are just starting to be done. So we

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Speaker 2: didn't even know about this whole mouse behavioral change to

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Speaker 2: get into the cat until the late nineties. So we're

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Speaker 2: talking about very new science. And of course when you're

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Speaker 2: doing studies like this with humans, you can't pull them

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Speaker 2: into the lab and infect them with the parasiteans studies,

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Speaker 2: right right, throw them in a lion cage and see

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Speaker 2: if they're not afraid, right, No, they frown upon that here.

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Speaker 1: So in the ethics departments build there, I tell you that.

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Speaker 2: But we can do correlation studies. You know, we do

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Speaker 2: have blood tests to discern whether people are infected or not,

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Speaker 2: and then we can just just you know, look at

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Speaker 2: behavioral patterns and see if there's a correlation. Now, I

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Speaker 2: probably don't have to tell you that correlation is not causation,

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Speaker 2: but it's the best we can do. Since we can't

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Speaker 2: throw humans in a lion cage and then see what

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Speaker 2: whether they're afraid or not. So these correlation studies have

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Speaker 2: been fascinating so far. There's a really strong correlation between

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Speaker 2: this what we call latent toxoplasma infection in the brain

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Speaker 2: and schizophrenia. So if you are infected with toxoplasma, I

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Speaker 2: believe you're almost twice as likely to get schizophrenia as

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Speaker 2: a non infected person would be.

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Speaker 1: Say significant increased risk ride.

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Speaker 2: It's a strong it's a strong correlation, and if memory

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Speaker 2: serves correct, it's stronger than any single gene that's ever

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Speaker 2: been implicated in schizophrenia. Now that's not to say genetics

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Speaker 2: aren't involved or other environmental factors, because there are people

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Speaker 2: diagnosed with schizophrenia who don't have a toxoplasma infection. So

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Speaker 2: there's obviously more to this story, but that correlation is

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Speaker 2: strong and I think warrants further investigation. There's other correlations

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Speaker 2: that speak to other neuropsychoses. In people infected with toxoplasma.

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Speaker 2: You see an elevated risk for rage disorder, an elevated

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Speaker 2: risk for impulsive gambling, other risk taking activities.

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Speaker 3: I was going to ask about it, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: risk taking behavior, right.

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Speaker 2: And as you're surmising, this parallels what we see in rodents,

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Speaker 2: you know, higher proclivity to engage in risky behavior, and

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Speaker 2: we're seeing parallels to that in people who carry this

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Speaker 2: parasite in their brain. There's even one study that showed

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Speaker 2: people with toxoplasma in their brain, and you know, most

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Speaker 2: people don't even know about that, they're three times more

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Speaker 2: likely to be involved in a car wreck, presumably because

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Speaker 2: of this parasite in the brain and the increased risk

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Speaker 2: taking activity that comes along with it. Now, it's not

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Speaker 2: necessarily all bad, and this is where we get into

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Speaker 2: some really interesting philosophical discussions because there is one study

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Speaker 2: out there that suggests people with this toxoplasma in their

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Speaker 2: brain have a higher chance of being a successful entrepreneur.

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Speaker 1: Again, maybe because the behavior increase.

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Speaker 2: Exactly they're rolling the dice on something that you know

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Speaker 2: might pay off, right, So this this is really interesting

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Speaker 2: and it makes people like me wonder. You know, I'm

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Speaker 2: trying to develop drugs that gets rid of this parasite

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Speaker 2: completely from the body, you know, because for you know,

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Speaker 2: compromise patients, this could be a fatal affection. So we

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Speaker 2: need drugs to get rid of it completely, and those

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Speaker 2: currently don't exist. It's one of the missions of my lap.

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Speaker 2: But let's say we're successful and we do find a

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Speaker 2: drug that can get rid of these cysts once and

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Speaker 2: for all, what would happen to the personality of that

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Speaker 2: person that people knew and loved. Would it change in

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Speaker 2: a way you know that would be better or worse.

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Speaker 2: It's a really interesting thing to contemplate, and that was

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Speaker 2: one of the drivers behind the book, was to look

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Speaker 2: at some of these hidden forces in the body and

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Speaker 2: see what's under the radar there that might be influencing

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Speaker 2: our behavior in ways that we don't know about.

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Speaker 3: So, Bill, when you look at my studies or other animals,

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Speaker 3: is it particularly impacting on the amygdala or on certain

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Speaker 3: circuitry that's involved in behavior. As soon as you're talking,

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Speaker 3: I'm thinking, surely the amigdala in the front of lobes,

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Speaker 3: the go no go circuit has to be involved in this.

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Speaker 3: Do we know specifically where it's acting or have we

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Speaker 3: not got that level of detail yet?

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Speaker 2: That's an excellent question, and there's really scant information at

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Speaker 2: this time. The great Robert Sapolski actually did a study

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Speaker 2: trying to find where the cyst went in the brain.

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Speaker 2: I think this is over ten years ago now, but

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Speaker 2: he's one of the few people who actually tried, and

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Speaker 2: he stated in his paper that he did see a

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Speaker 2: very slight enrichment in the amigdala for where the parasite

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Speaker 2: was going. But I don't believe that's ever been replicated.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if anyone's tried to replicate it. Most

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Speaker 2: of the studies I'm aware of, and the studies from

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Speaker 2: my own lab, have found pretty much a random distribution

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Speaker 2: these cysts throughout the brain, and it might explain why

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Speaker 2: sometimes the behavioral changes vary. Yes, you know, you don't

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Speaker 2: see the same degree of change every single time and

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Speaker 2: in every single animal. So I think there's a little

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Speaker 2: luck of the drawl as to where the parasite happens

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Speaker 2: to end up in the brain. And what sort of

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Speaker 2: behavioral modification you see.

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Speaker 3: Bloody Yeah, we could get We could end up with

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Speaker 3: targeted parasite cysts in the briand to try and improve

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Speaker 3: our change behavior as Wow, that opens a whole ethical

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Speaker 3: Pandora's box.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't it?

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Speaker 2: It sure does.

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Speaker 1: So let's know I talk about so.

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Speaker 3: An old quote about genes is that genetics loads the

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Speaker 3: gun and environment pulls the trigger. So let's explore both

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Speaker 3: sides of that. Let's talk about genetics and behavior, because

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Speaker 3: again there's a whole host of different association studies around

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Speaker 3: certain genes and certain behavior. What are the sort of

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Speaker 3: the big ones of interest that you've looked at, and

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Speaker 3: then we can jump into the environmental stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, well, well there's a connection there because I

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Speaker 2: never I never think about genes independent from the environment anymore.

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Speaker 2: You know, back in the day that was kind of there.

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Speaker 2: There was almost like gene tyranny. Everyone thought that the

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Speaker 2: genes were everything, and if we sequence the human genome,

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Speaker 2: we were going to solve all the diseases and disorders

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Speaker 2: that are out there. Now. I don't want to underplay

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Speaker 2: that achievement at all. It's a fantastic achievement, has produced

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Speaker 2: wildly informative studies, but I think it diminished how we

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Speaker 2: think about the interaction between the environment and genes. And

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Speaker 2: I got involved in this because there's there's basically two

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Speaker 2: hidden forces. Okay, to go back to the analogy that

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Speaker 2: pleased to meet me, use is, genes and epigenetics are

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Speaker 2: what I consider two other very related hidden forces that

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Speaker 2: are operating in our body. As you said, most people

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Speaker 2: think of genes, you know, it's kind of like, well,

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Speaker 2: they build you, right, They're a recipe for life. And

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Speaker 2: most people won't have to be convinced that there are

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Speaker 2: genes that control your eye color or whether you have

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Speaker 2: curly hair. But when you tell them that there's genes

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Speaker 2: that are involved in addiction or obesity or things that

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Speaker 2: people usually look to your you know, your moral discipline about.

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Speaker 2: You tell them that genes can influence that genes can

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Speaker 2: dictate what sort of foods you like. You know, and

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Speaker 2: you know, there's even a study that shows that genes

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Speaker 2: can have something to do with when you lose your virginity.

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Speaker 1: Wow, I mean it's.

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Speaker 2: Crazy, right, But when you when you when you read

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Speaker 2: the whole story, it's basically because there's genes that initiate

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Speaker 2: puberty earlier in some individuals, and that's really all it's about.

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Speaker 2: But genes can have some remarkably predictive power with respect

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Speaker 2: to behavioral changes and personality in general, much more than

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Speaker 2: I ever appreciated before I started doing the research for

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Speaker 2: Please to Meet Me. But I love the analogy. Say

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Speaker 2: that again, Paul, what did you say.

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Speaker 3: Genes genetics loads the gun and environment pulls the trigger.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not sure who there was.

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Speaker 3: Some Nobel Prize winner who said genes are not deterministic.

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Speaker 1: They do not operate in a vacuum.

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Speaker 3: Genes are the servants of the environment, right, and that

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Speaker 3: gets into the interactions between them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think there's a lot of truth to

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Speaker 2: that statement. But sometimes genes really do have a huge impact,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes it's just a single one. So the examples

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Speaker 2: I cited in my book would be like a genetic

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Speaker 2: mutation in certain gene will cause sickle cell amenius. There's

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Speaker 2: a genetic mutation in another gene that will cause Huntington's disease.

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Speaker 2: And these are predictive without fail. They are right every

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Speaker 2: single time. So in those cases it really doesn't matter

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Speaker 2: what the environment's doing. That phenotype, that characteristic is going

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Speaker 2: to happen no matter what. But we don't want to

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Speaker 2: overextend that, Okay. So those are actually rare instances where

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Speaker 2: the genes are really really important and highly predictive. Other

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Speaker 2: things like personality and behavior are far more complicated. They

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Speaker 2: involve the activities of hundreds, maybe thousands of genes, and

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Speaker 2: we are in we're nowhere near close to being able

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Speaker 2: to formulate predictions. So the analogy that I used was

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Speaker 2: that genes are the piano, but it's the environment that

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Speaker 2: plays the song. Yeah, okay, so when you're talking about behavior,

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Speaker 2: that's where the environment it can have really strong effects,

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Speaker 2: even things if physical characteristics can be affected by the environment.

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Speaker 2: So we all know height is about eighty percent genetically controlled,

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Speaker 2: but it does have a twenty percent environmental component. So

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Speaker 2: that means you're in your DNA, you could have the

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Speaker 2: genes that should build a human being that is six

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Speaker 2: foot tall. Okay, let's just say that for the sake

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Speaker 2: of argument. But if that individual grows up in poverty

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Speaker 2: and is malnourished, you're not going to get to that

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Speaker 2: six feet. That genetic potential is not going to be realized.

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Speaker 2: Why because of the environment. And that's where this concept

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Speaker 2: of epigenetics comes in, which is the environment basically regulating

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Speaker 2: how gene activity works, and that can have a profound

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Speaker 2: influence on how someone looks and acts, which to me

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Speaker 2: is mind blowing for two reasons. First of all, it

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Speaker 2: kind of destroys the whole nature nurture dichotomy. Yeah, in

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Speaker 2: my mind, that's a false dichotomy. We shouldn't really bifurcate

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Speaker 2: those principles like that there are two sides of the

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Speaker 2: same coin. And the second thing it tells me is

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Speaker 2: that there are a lot of potential people in your

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Speaker 2: genome and you are just one manifestation of what could

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Speaker 2: have happened, which I think is a fascinating philosophical concept.

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Speaker 3: It is a really interesting concept. And I'll give you

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Speaker 3: one that was springing to mind as you were talking

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Speaker 3: about that. And Dennis Charney has done a lot of

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Speaker 3: research on resilience, studying a lot of combat veterans, but

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Speaker 3: then done genetic testing around a whole heap of people

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Speaker 3: who've been through trauma, some who get PTSD, some who don't,

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Speaker 3: and they have identified that there is one gene that

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Speaker 3: if say you have one variant and I have another variant,

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Speaker 3: and that if we are brought up in highly stressful situations,

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Speaker 3: I will develop PTSD and have massive mental health problems,

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Speaker 3: whereas you with a different variant of that gene end

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Speaker 3: up becoming much more resilient. Right, And so exactly what

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Speaker 3: you talked about there, the gene environment interaction then having

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Speaker 3: a huge impact on behavior. And so if you're brought

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Speaker 3: up in a stressful situation, you end up much more resilient.

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Speaker 3: But if you're not brought up in a stressful situation,

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Speaker 3: you don't end up.

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Speaker 1: Much more resilient. So there's two different versions of you

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Speaker 1: depending on that upbringing.

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Speaker 3: And it's really fascinating, isn't it that that environment and

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Speaker 3: I've never thought about it before from that perspective, that

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Speaker 3: there's a whole heap of potential use that they interact. Jesus,

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Speaker 3: we're getting into quantum physics here and right.

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Speaker 2: Right, If you're a believer in parallel univers indeed, you

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Speaker 2: know there's an infinite number of other Paul Taylors out

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Speaker 2: there that could be very similar to you or very different.

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Speaker 1: Hmm. Yeah, wow, that's fascinating.

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Speaker 3: So let's let's just dive into epigenetics a little bit

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Speaker 3: and just give our listeners a bit more of a

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Speaker 3: sense about epigenetic regulation of things and how that happens

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Speaker 3: throughout our lifetime to affect a whole host of different things.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, epigenetics is a relatively new science, and we started

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Speaker 2: studying it in the context of toxoplasma because that's how

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Speaker 2: old some of these gene regulatory mechanisms are Toxoplasma evolved

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Speaker 2: millions and millions of years ago, long before we came

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Speaker 2: into the picture, right, and it's still using epigenetics. So

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Speaker 2: the way I like to describe epigenetics, just so people

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Speaker 2: understand it very simply, is that you can have you

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Speaker 2: think about a caterpillar and a butterfly. Okay, very very

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Speaker 2: different physical manifestations of the same genome. A caterpillar and

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Speaker 2: a butterfly have the exact same DNA, So how do

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Speaker 2: you get such drastic morphological differences in these two forms?

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Speaker 2: And that's what epigenetics comes down to. They have the

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Speaker 2: same exact genes, but different ones are turned on and

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Speaker 2: different ones are turned off between those two different states.

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Speaker 2: And put simply, epigenetics is simply a chemical modification that

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Speaker 2: takes place on the DNA molecule, on a gene, if

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Speaker 2: you will, that changes its activity. It can ramp it up,

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Speaker 2: it can ramp it down, it can shut it off completely.

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Speaker 2: And those chemical modifications come from the environment. They come

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Speaker 2: from signals in the environment. And this not only can

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Speaker 2: affect us today, it has affected us during our entire lives.

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Speaker 2: So the way an embryo develops for example, from a

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Speaker 2: single cell. Every time a new cellular division occurs and

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Speaker 2: it's time to make different organs, that's when epigenetics comes

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Speaker 2: into play. It's like a unfolding computer program, if you will.

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Speaker 2: But when one of those cells divides in the embryo

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Speaker 2: and says it's time to be a liver cell, that

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Speaker 2: cell shuts off all the other unrelated genes and turns

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Speaker 2: on only the genes designed to make it a liver cell.

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Speaker 2: And that's epigenetics probably at its most simplest. Where it

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Speaker 2: affects people as they grow is that we can see studies,

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Speaker 2: like you mentioned before. If we look at children, for example,

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Speaker 2: who are subjected to aces or adverse childhood experiences, bullying, neglect, abuse,

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Speaker 2: and you look at their genomes, they are epigenetically modified.

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Speaker 2: They're not mutated, but the genes are chemically modified to

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Speaker 2: express stress genes differently. So, like you were alluding to earlier,

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Speaker 2: stressful situations are handled differently on average by children who

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Speaker 2: were in stressful environments, you know, for you know, their

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Speaker 2: most impressionable years. Those changes are governed by epigenetics. There's

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Speaker 2: a well documented study that shows children who are unfortunately

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Speaker 2: subjected to aces have what we call DNA methylation at

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Speaker 2: stress responsive genes. Now, DNA methylation is one of those

437
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 2: chemicals I told about, told you about that can modify DNA,

438
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,080
Speaker 2: and you can think of them as like little construction

439
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 2: cones on the highway. Every time a gene gets methylated,

440
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 2: once it starts to shut down. So if you have

441
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,720
Speaker 2: a heavily methylated gene, it can be virtually completely turned off.

442
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 2: And that means the stress responses in these children are

443
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:02,679
Speaker 2: just not being turned on correctly or they're in a

444
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 2: constant state of being hyperactivated. And that extends into their

445
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 2: adulthood and explains why there's correlations between children who experience

446
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 2: those unfortunate events when they were young and then have

447
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 2: problems interacting socially, you know, in older age, and they're

448
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: more more prone to violence and mental health disorders.

449
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: And to end up in prison as well, right.

450
00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 2: And to end up in prison, yeah, yeah, So it's

451
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 2: even if they get into a better environment later in life.

452
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 2: There seems to be a window during our childhood. It's

453
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,720
Speaker 2: critically important, and if it's epigenetically wired in the wrong way,

454
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 2: it can set that child up for a lifetime of trouble.

455
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 2: And that's something we need to deal with, and that

456
00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 2: knowledge is power. It might be able to help us.

457
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 3: And it has huge implications, doesn't it throughout society and

458
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 3: throughout how we treat these people when they end up

459
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 3: in trouble.

460
00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree more.

461
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 3: And then even you know, if we just take people

462
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 3: in prisons, we know a huge amount of them have

463
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 3: had a traumatic brain injury, right, which then modifies their behavior.

464
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 3: And that seems to be pretty obvious. You go, well,

465
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 3: this person's has had a traumatic brain injury that has

466
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 3: changed certain areas of the brain, and their front elopes.

467
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: Don't work as well, so we need to do something

468
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: about that. That is a bit more obvious.

469
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 3: But it's the same as that epigenetic modification of that

470
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,959
Speaker 3: child who's brought up in a stressful environment with a

471
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 3: father who's violent and.

472
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 1: Drinking and they're poor in all of these things.

473
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 3: As you rightly say, it can then affect their behavior

474
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 3: throughout their life. Now, is there any evidence then that

475
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 3: those epigenetic changes can then be passed on to their children,

476
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 3: because I know that so certain things.

477
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 1: For instance, we know that.

478
00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 3: If one of your parents was an alcoholic or a

479
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 3: drug addict, there will then be atpigenetic changes on your

480
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 3: dopamine receptors, which will then influence your behavior at your

481
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 3: risk of becoming addicted yourself. Do we see similar things

482
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 3: with people who've been through uses or is there any

483
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 3: other examples of that where you've seen epigenetic modifications actually

484
00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:28,479
Speaker 3: then happening in the next generation. Because we didn't used

485
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 3: to think that could happen.

486
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,640
Speaker 2: Right right, right, Yeah, we didn't think that trauma could

487
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 2: be inherited in those ways. And unfortunately, the mindset of

488
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 2: many individuals is to tell someone who is suffering, or

489
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,120
Speaker 2: who's committed crimes or is overly aggressive, to snap out

490
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,360
Speaker 2: of it, change your behavior, and that might be like

491
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: telling a blind person to see God, damn it. Yeah,

492
00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 2: you know. I like the parallel that you drew there

493
00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 2: between brain injury and the proclivity for violence. What's the

494
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: difference if it's an actual brain injury versus modification of

495
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 2: your DNA molecule. Both are going to affect behavior, and

496
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 2: we need to step back as a society and evaluate

497
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 2: are we really treating people even if they've committed offenses

498
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 2: that we find, you know, quite horrible. Are we really

499
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 2: going about this the right way? And more importantly, are

500
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 2: there biomarkers that we might be able to essay to

501
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 2: catch this sort of behavior or try to predict that

502
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 2: this person is going to be in a higher is

503
00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 2: going to have a higher proclivity for violence or aggression,

504
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 2: and then we might be able to start therapy or

505
00:31:40,920 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 2: treatment before it becomes a problem. That's that's my ultimate hope.

506
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 2: But you were you were.

507
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 3: I'm sorry whether.

508
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 2: The oh the evidence yea. The concept you're referring to there,

509
00:31:55,520 --> 00:32:00,920
Speaker 2: and it's a mouthful, what's called transgenerational epigenetic inheritance. And

510
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 2: you've stumbled upon one of the most controversial ideas in

511
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 2: genetics today, because there's a whole school of thought that

512
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 2: with epigenetics there is now a real tangible way that

513
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 2: behavioral learned behavior can be passed on to the next generation,

514
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 2: or that trauma could be passed on to the next generation.

515
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 2: But the evidence for that idea we need some more.

516
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 2: It needs to be more rigorous. But I'll tell you

517
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: about one of the coolest experiments that I wrote about

518
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 2: in the book that just blew my mind and suggests

519
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,720
Speaker 2: that an investment of research dollars into this phenomenon is

520
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: worth it. So these scientists several years ago wanted to

521
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 2: investigate whether trauma was heritable, so they used a mouse

522
00:32:55,280 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 2: model and they basically induced a learned fear into these mice.

523
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 2: And the way they did that was mice normally love

524
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,479
Speaker 2: the smell of cherries, right, just like we do, but

525
00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 2: not if they're shocked at the same time they're smelling

526
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 2: the cherries. Okay, So if the scientists allow them to

527
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: smell cherries but then shock them, they start to develop

528
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 2: an unusual fear of cherries. Okay. So the interesting part

529
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: came when the scientists decided to mate those mice that

530
00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 2: were unnaturally afraid of cherries with a normal mouse and

531
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 2: then look at the behavior of the offspring, and wouldn't

532
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 2: you know it, the offspring were afraid of cherries. And

533
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 2: that's remarkable because they never saw their parents get shocked.

534
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 2: They've never been shocked. They were just born with this

535
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 2: brand new fear that most mice do not have. And

536
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 2: then they looked at the grand children of those parents

537
00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,800
Speaker 2: and the behavior was still there. Those grandchildren were still

538
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 2: afraid of cherries, and that's pretty remarkable to me. And

539
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,280
Speaker 2: they've done a whole lot of mechanistic work that tracked

540
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 2: it down to an epigenetic modification of an olfactory receptor

541
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: that happens to go to the brain, and this epigenetic

542
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 2: change was taking place in the sperm of the males

543
00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:25,760
Speaker 2: that were shocked by the cherries.

544
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: Oh wow.

545
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 2: So it provides a really interesting and plausible mechanism for

546
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 2: how this might be happening, how this inherited trauma might

547
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 2: be happening. But we do have to be careful with

548
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 2: how we interpret these sorts of results, because you know,

549
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 2: if I know how to play the guitar, you know,

550
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 2: my kids were not born knowing how to play the guitar.

551
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 2: But that's a very complicated behavior, maybe very simple ones,

552
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 2: especially ones that play into survivor.

553
00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 3: I was just about to say the survivor, because it's

554
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:05,439
Speaker 3: interesting that that that the two mice being meted, one

555
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 3: with the fear, one without the fear. The dominant one

556
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,839
Speaker 3: that's passed on is the fear. So straight away, am

557
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:14,480
Speaker 3: I brain on my survival? That that that's got to

558
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 3: be a survival.

559
00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 2: And and that would make that would make perfect evolutionary.

560
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: Sense right absolutely.

561
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 2: And when you see other examples in different model organisms,

562
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,360
Speaker 2: like there is a oh what is this creature. I

563
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 2: think it's some kind of water flea or something like that.

564
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:37,240
Speaker 2: There's a little microscopic water flea that when you put

565
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: its predators sent into the tank, its offspring will be

566
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,319
Speaker 2: born with these defensive hooks on its head which are

567
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,280
Speaker 2: not present on the parent. Oh wow, So that's another

568
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 2: example of how an epigenetic change that took place in

569
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 2: a parent that got scared and then whilah, it's children

570
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 2: are born with this new defense system.

571
00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:01,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

572
00:36:01,880 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 2: So it's almost like the parent is sending, you know,

573
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,160
Speaker 2: like a signal of some kind of molecular signal that

574
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 2: is woven into the fabric of the DNA to tell

575
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,719
Speaker 2: its child, Hey, this is a dangerous environment. You should

576
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:19,840
Speaker 2: expend extra energy to make these horns on your head,

577
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 2: which you normally don't have to do. But since there's

578
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 2: since mom and dad detect predators, we're basically sending you

579
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 2: a molecular signal that you've got to make these horns

580
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 2: on your head. And then after a couple of generations,

581
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,840
Speaker 2: if the predator scent is no longer there, they go away.

582
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,280
Speaker 2: So it's reversible changes as well.

583
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, and now there's two there's two things that that

584
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 3: that jump up two rabbit holes that I want to

585
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 3: go down here, and one is the what's known as

586
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 3: the Dutch hunger winter. So this came out of I

587
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 3: believe it's the Second World War where the Germans encircled

588
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:59,560
Speaker 3: a part of Holland and basically imposed a famine on there.

589
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 1: And and what.

590
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 3: They found is that certain babies who were conceived at

591
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 3: a certain time, so it was all about the trimester,

592
00:37:10,080 --> 00:37:12,080
Speaker 3: and I'm struggling to remember. I think it might have

593
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 3: been the third trimester. I'm not sure which one it was.

594
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 3: But they went on to express genes that basically made

595
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:24,240
Speaker 3: them more thrifty and were much more likely to develop

596
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 3: diabetes and obesity when they were brought up in an

597
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 3: environment where there was good nutrition. So it was basically

598
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 3: when they're born or sus certain trimester when genes are

599
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 3: being methylated at without food, with mother didn't have the food.

600
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 3: It basically then said to that child, you're going to

601
00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:47,160
Speaker 3: be in an environment with no food, so you need

602
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 3: to hold on to all of that energy. And they

603
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 3: then had children who were more likely to be diabetic

604
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 3: and opese if they were brought up with sufficient food. Obviously,

605
00:37:58,719 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 3: if they hadn't been brought up with with sufficient food

606
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 3: that would have been a survival advantage, but they then

607
00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 3: went on to have grandchildren who expressed the same thing.

608
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,200
Speaker 3: So again that's another one of those for me, driven

609
00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 3: by survival.

610
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: Survival is prioritizing stuff.

611
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:20,400
Speaker 3: So that's one around epigenetic and nutritional epigenetics, and we

612
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 3: know that nutrition has got huge methylation capacities. So I'll

613
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,839
Speaker 3: get your comment on that in a second. But then

614
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 3: the other one about trauma and intergenerational trauma. So the

615
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 3: Aboriginal community in Australia have been through pretty severe trauma.

616
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've heard of the Stolen generation

617
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 3: that happened in Australia where it was a few decades

618
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 3: ago were people thought that they were an inferior race

619
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 3: and that they should be outbred basically, and they actually

620
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 3: thought that this was good for the population, so they

621
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:00,200
Speaker 3: went in and stole a whole heap of children and

622
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 3: give them to white people. And what has now been

623
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 3: clear is that that trauma has actually been passed on

624
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 3: from generations and it influences behavior. And then there's the

625
00:39:12,440 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 3: whole heap of other disadvantages that they've had. And we

626
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 3: now know that people are born Aboriginal are more than

627
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,480
Speaker 3: thirty times more likely to be incarcerated than white people.

628
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 3: And some people in this country go, oh, they're just

629
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:30,440
Speaker 3: poorly behaved and they need to sort their stuff out,

630
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:35,040
Speaker 3: and they have got no idea about the impact of

631
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:39,239
Speaker 3: that trauma and that intergenerational trauma. So take either of

632
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 3: those that you might find interesting to have a comment on.

633
00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 2: Well they are. I was not as familiar with the

634
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,720
Speaker 2: second example, but I certainly heard of the Dutch hunger

635
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:56,560
Speaker 2: famine and it's tie to transgenerational epigenetic inheritance, and to

636
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 2: the best of my knowledge, it's one of the few

637
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:04,799
Speaker 2: examples that we have of this phenomenon possibly occurring in

638
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:10,320
Speaker 2: human beings, and I personally think it's pretty convincing evidence.

639
00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,440
Speaker 2: You know, a lot of the molecular machinery is not

640
00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:15,480
Speaker 2: in place, but I think the proof of principle is there.

641
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:24,319
Speaker 2: And like you said, the prenatal environment is kind of

642
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:29,440
Speaker 2: like a sensory one as well, and mom is trying

643
00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: to set up her baby to be ready to be

644
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:37,239
Speaker 2: born into the environment that she is currently experiencing, right,

645
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,160
Speaker 2: And that's why those children were born with thrifty genotypes,

646
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: which means they did not incur mutations in their DNA.

647
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 2: That's not the mechanism here, it's purely epigenetic. DNA was

648
00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 2: either methylated chemically modified in some way that it allowed

649
00:40:56,200 --> 00:41:01,000
Speaker 2: these children to extract the maximum number of calories minimal

650
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 2: amount of food, which is a horrible phenotype to have

651
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: if you're growing up in a virtual candy land, which

652
00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 2: we are today.

653
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly, but a brilliant phenotype to have if you're

654
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,439
Speaker 3: in an environment where there is not food.

655
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 2: And that's what biology was trying to do. It was

656
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,200
Speaker 2: trying to prepare those children to be ready for a famine,

657
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 2: and they're very well could have been one, you know,

658
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 2: had history gone differently, but there wasn't. And as a consequence,

659
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 2: we now have a lot of individuals who have a

660
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:38,680
Speaker 2: thrifty genotype but are extracting too many calories, even though

661
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 2: they're probably eating reasonably well, they're just still extracting too

662
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,759
Speaker 2: many calories. And that not only tells us about you know,

663
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:52,279
Speaker 2: intergenerational trauma, but it also tells us about you know

664
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,480
Speaker 2: a lot about the obesity epidemic. You know, how much

665
00:41:54,480 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 2: of this is really beyond someone's discipline, and you know,

666
00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 2: whether it's moral, fiber it might be DNA fiber that's

667
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 2: actually more in play here, and maybe we should have

668
00:42:04,719 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 2: a little more sympathy and compassion with respect to you know,

669
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 2: obese people or people who have been subjected to these

670
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 2: adverse childhood experiences and then have higher rates of incarceration,

671
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 2: you know, to speak to the Aborigines example that you

672
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:29,120
Speaker 2: brought up. I think I think studying these epigenetic phenomena

673
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 2: is very telling and puts us in a much more

674
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 2: compassionate place with respect to Let's try to figure out

675
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:41,759
Speaker 2: what's going on at a biological level, and then from

676
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 2: there we can potentially work on potential you know, treatments

677
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 2: for these individuals. We may be able to develop epigenetic

678
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 2: drugs that can change how these marks exist and then

679
00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 2: put an end to that transgenerational inheritance.

680
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 1: If you will.

681
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:07,279
Speaker 3: And it's interesting you're talking about the fatal environment. So

682
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 3: I know, particularly with my interest in stress and resilience,

683
00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 3: that if mum is stressed in the third trimester, that

684
00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:22,880
Speaker 3: developing fetus actually grows a bigger and more sensitive amygdala

685
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 3: and they're born with hypervigilance to stress and threat, and

686
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 3: that is an amazing evolutionary mechanism that mom is basically

687
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,360
Speaker 3: sent to that unborn child, you are going to be

688
00:43:36,440 --> 00:43:38,280
Speaker 3: born into a dangerous environment.

689
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: You need to be on your guard.

690
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 3: I mean, it's an amazing adaptive response, isn't it if

691
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,640
Speaker 3: that task is born in a dangerous environment. But if

692
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 3: they're not born in a dangerous environment, it becomes maladaptive

693
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,959
Speaker 3: because they're hypervigilant to stress and threat and more prone

694
00:43:54,960 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 3: to anxiety and depression.

695
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: And it's then not good.

696
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 2: Right, right, that's a brilliant example. Evolution is conservative. It's

697
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 2: going to take the safe way out. You know, it

698
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 2: doesn't take chances, right because that usually doesn't work out

699
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: in your favor. But if a mother is exposed to

700
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:22,439
Speaker 2: stress and wants to kind of molecularly educate that child, Hey,

701
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 2: this is a stressful environment. These are the genes that

702
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:28,799
Speaker 2: are going to help you. That's okay. The child might

703
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 2: have an advantage if there is a stressful environment. And

704
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:35,640
Speaker 2: I think evolution predicts that the environment is going to

705
00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:39,480
Speaker 2: be relatively stable because in the past we didn't wander

706
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,400
Speaker 2: very far. You know, our environment pretty much stayed the

707
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:47,480
Speaker 2: same our entire lives. So that's not the case anymore today.

708
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:50,319
Speaker 2: And those genes as you said the way they were

709
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:57,319
Speaker 2: epigenetically modified could now be maladaptive, and evolution doesn't care

710
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 2: about that as long as the child lives long enough

711
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 2: to replicate.

712
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 3: It just evolution doesn't care about you at all, needs

713
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 3: just about survival of the species.

714
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 2: Vehicle, doesn't care if you're happy, doesn't care if you

715
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 2: see rainbows and sunshine. It just wants you to live

716
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,959
Speaker 2: long enough to replicate, and it considers its job well done.

717
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 1: So like, let's not will switch checked a little bit.

718
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Ozzy Osbourne.

719
00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:37,400
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the great Ozzy Osbourne, the man on the

720
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 2: Crazy Train himself.

721
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you write about him in your book, tell

722
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:42,560
Speaker 3: us a little bit about it.

723
00:45:42,640 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 1: I did.

724
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 2: I wrote about Osbourne Surprise in the context of a

725
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 2: drug and alcohol addiction. And it's a fascinating story because

726
00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 2: most people aren't aware that Ozzy Osbourne was one of

727
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 2: the first people on the planet to have his genome sequenced.

728
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 2: He was I don't know exactly where he was, but

729
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,360
Speaker 2: he was up there, like in the top ten percent.

730
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:07,839
Speaker 1: Wow.

731
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:12,320
Speaker 2: And it's not because he volunteered. You know, scientists approached him,

732
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:14,640
Speaker 2: you know, they sought him out as a specimen in

733
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 2: there a specimen because they purposefully wanted to see what

734
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 2: kind of genes he has that have kept him alive

735
00:46:28,200 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 2: through all that he's put his body through. I'm not

736
00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,399
Speaker 2: making that up. That's exactly what their motivation was. They

737
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 2: wanted to try to learn something about drug and alcohol

738
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 2: addiction from this guy who's had notorious stories about drug

739
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 2: and alcohol addiction and has emerged at the end of

740
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 2: that tunnel relatively unscathed like many people. Scientists were befuddled

741
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 2: by this, and they wanted to see if sequencing Ozzy

742
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 2: Osbourne's genome could reveal something. And Ozzy said the funniest things,

743
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:02,239
Speaker 2: you know, when the scientists approached him, He's like, the

744
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:05,360
Speaker 2: only gene I knew about was that guy from Kiss.

745
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,200
Speaker 1: Excellent, you know.

746
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:12,000
Speaker 2: So Ozzy really had no idea what was going on,

747
00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 2: but he was. He played along, and he sent them

748
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 2: samples of his DNA and scientists sequence it and lo

749
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:25,760
Speaker 2: and behold, they found never seen mutations in a gene

750
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,799
Speaker 2: called eighth four I believe it was, which produces an

751
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 2: enzyme that that works in the liver to detoxify alcohol.

752
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 2: And the way this gene was mutated this is the

753
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 2: crazy part. It would have produced a ton of this

754
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:48,120
Speaker 2: ADH four enzyme. So Ozzy Osbourne is genetically engineered to

755
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 2: process alcohol at a much higher rate than your ordinary

756
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 2: average human being.

757
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:59,600
Speaker 3: Apart from half of the Irish population apparently, so alcohol alcohol,

758
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 3: I'm refining machines.

759
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, but the b fair Paul, I would like to

760
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 2: actually go back usually write a grant to researchers look

761
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,360
Speaker 2: at the Irish population compare it to Ozzy Osbourne and

762
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:16,880
Speaker 2: see if they share that mutation or that would be interesting.

763
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 2: And he had some other mutations as well that scientists

764
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 2: didn't know what to make of back when it was done, because,

765
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 2: like I said, he was one of the first human

766
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 2: beings to get his genome sequenced. We have sequenced you know,

767
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 2: tons more since then over the past twenty years, because

768
00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 2: sequencing has gotten so much easier to do and it's

769
00:48:36,640 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 2: so much cheaper. So we have the genomes for hundreds

770
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 2: of thousands of people now, and we can do what

771
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:47,759
Speaker 2: are called genome wide assortment studies gwas the genomes of

772
00:48:48,640 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 2: you know, literally millions of people, and supercomputers can spit

773
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 2: out these analyzes that tell us, you know, certain phenotypes

774
00:48:55,440 --> 00:49:01,560
Speaker 2: correlate with these genetic mutations. So I say all that,

775
00:49:01,760 --> 00:49:06,200
Speaker 2: just basically to educate people that one of the most

776
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:10,040
Speaker 2: common denominators that come out of these genetic studies looking

777
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 2: at people struggling with alcohol are genetic modifications in what's

778
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:20,600
Speaker 2: called the GABBA neurotransmitter system in the brain. And for

779
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 2: those who don't know, GABA is a neurotransmitter or a

780
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 2: brain chemical that calms the brain down. It basically de

781
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:32,919
Speaker 2: escalates brain activity, and that's something that's necessary in order

782
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 2: to sleep and in order to focus in things of

783
00:49:36,239 --> 00:49:38,719
Speaker 2: that nature. And basically, what they're seeing in a lot

784
00:49:38,760 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 2: of alcoholics, not all of them, but a lot of them,

785
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 2: there is some sort of genetic mutation in the regulation

786
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 2: or the manufacturing of GABBA and how it works, and

787
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 2: the end result is that these individuals have a hyperactive brain.

788
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 2: So now things start to make a lot more sense.

789
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 2: Right If someone has a hyperactive brain and they accidentally

790
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 2: discover one day when they first try alcohol that, oh

791
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,880
Speaker 2: my god, if I drink this, I feel normal. Brain

792
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:10,960
Speaker 2: has calmed down. I can sleep at night, I can focus,

793
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:15,360
Speaker 2: And that's going to be a real short term solution

794
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:19,440
Speaker 2: because alcohol is an addictive substance, and the more you ingest,

795
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,279
Speaker 2: the more of a tolerance you build up and it

796
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 2: just leads into this vicious cycle of addiction. But it

797
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:32,040
Speaker 2: explains very nicely why some alcoholics struggle so much to

798
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 2: give it up. It's because as soon as they start

799
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 2: to do so, their brain could kick back into this

800
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:43,840
Speaker 2: hyperactive mode and it'll just be a downward spiral from there.

801
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 2: So the bright side to all of that is that

802
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 2: information is really powerful and it suggests that one we

803
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:59,520
Speaker 2: shouldn't just be you know, scornful and admonishing and judgmental

804
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 2: about people who struggle with drug and alcohol addiction. There's

805
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 2: a real biological basis for why this is happening and

806
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 2: why it happens to just like ten or twelve percent

807
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,279
Speaker 2: of people. You know, the vast majority of people who

808
00:51:12,360 --> 00:51:16,399
Speaker 2: experiment with drugs or alcohol do not get addicted. Only

809
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,400
Speaker 2: a small subset do. And now we're learning it's because

810
00:51:19,440 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 2: they have genetic mutations at key genes that regulate brain activity.

811
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:30,280
Speaker 2: And that leads us to a new discovery of therapeutics

812
00:51:30,480 --> 00:51:34,000
Speaker 2: that might be able to mimic what Gabba does and

813
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:38,200
Speaker 2: kind of fill this hole you know that is in

814
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:42,880
Speaker 2: their character, their molecular character. You know, it'll be able basically,

815
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:48,680
Speaker 2: it'll be able to treat alcoholism without the resurgence of

816
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:49,880
Speaker 2: a hyperactive brain.

817
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 3: Well, I mean, you only have to it's not a

818
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:57,320
Speaker 3: massive lape to look at. I did a workshop a

819
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 3: talk last week and with somebody else that they're doing

820
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 3: another talk who was leading the research on psychedelics for

821
00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:14,280
Speaker 3: mood disorders and getting unbelievable results. So you can see

822
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:17,239
Speaker 3: that that basically a compound and it's a chemical.

823
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 1: The chemical structure of.

824
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:23,960
Speaker 3: That compound, psilocybin or the MDMA can actually and he

825
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 3: described it as the rocket ship for therapy. Right, So

826
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 3: it doesn't work in and of itself, but he said

827
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 3: it absolutely supercharges therapy to change people's brain. And so

828
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:42,520
Speaker 3: there are just one chemical ingested and the research that

829
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:47,280
Speaker 3: they were doing was showing one intervention can completely change

830
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 3: people who no interventions has worked with. They take one

831
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:56,560
Speaker 3: MDMA or psilocybin assistant therapy and it can have a

832
00:52:56,640 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 3: massive effect. Now they're tending to do two or three

833
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 3: in the therapy lasts longer, but it is just the

834
00:53:05,120 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 3: potential for a therapeutic to change the brain.

835
00:53:08,640 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 1: So much so that opens the door.

836
00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:14,400
Speaker 3: To the stuff that you were saying, And let's do

837
00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 3: another little pivot and talk about something that's a very

838
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 3: hot button in your country right now, which is political beliefs.

839
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 2: Right So what you know, maybe a little bit of

840
00:53:26,480 --> 00:53:28,239
Speaker 2: a hot but maybe a little.

841
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:30,319
Speaker 3: Wow is.

842
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 1: This?

843
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:35,200
Speaker 3: I mean, is there something around in the water that

844
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 3: is making people more diametrically opposed?

845
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 1: But what in general.

846
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 3: Does our biology have to do with our political beliefs?

847
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 3: Because there is a massive experiment going on right now.

848
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:53,479
Speaker 2: Really, you know, that's that's the billion dollar question, Paul.

849
00:53:53,520 --> 00:53:56,840
Speaker 2: And if I had an answer to that, well, I

850
00:53:57,120 --> 00:53:59,680
Speaker 2: would love to put it into practice, because we can't

851
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:02,359
Speaker 2: what we have going on right now, and it's not

852
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 2: just our country, maybe maybe our country to an amplified degree,

853
00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 2: but this hyper polarization and this whole US versus them,

854
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:14,359
Speaker 2: this this ship's got to stop. Yeah, I mean, I'm

855
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 2: sorry if I can't.

856
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 3: Say that.

857
00:54:18,160 --> 00:54:24,560
Speaker 2: Past, but but it's it's the most frustrating because there

858
00:54:24,640 --> 00:54:31,879
Speaker 2: are organizations that are profiting massively by dividing people, by

859
00:54:31,920 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 2: misinforming people. And what we as a group, and this

860
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:39,239
Speaker 2: is on us, have forgotten is that hey, we're all

861
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 2: Americans and we should recognize when there is an entity

862
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:45,959
Speaker 2: out there that it's trying to divide us. Okay, that's

863
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:48,960
Speaker 2: the enemy, not you and me. You know, the enemy

864
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:51,919
Speaker 2: is trying to divide us. But that's neither here there.

865
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:57,960
Speaker 2: Like you were asking, there are biological explanations for all

866
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 2: sorts of behavior. Politics is not excluded from that realm.

867
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 2: That was like the what I was trying to make.

868
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 2: The main takeaway of my book is that no matter

869
00:55:06,719 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 2: how bizarre unusual you think the behavior is, there's a

870
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 2: biological basis for it. There's no magic or supernatural element

871
00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:17,319
Speaker 2: to this. And if we can discover what that biological

872
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:20,319
Speaker 2: basis is, that gives us a foothold on how to

873
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:24,800
Speaker 2: proceed forward. It also helps generate compassion because people can't

874
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:27,400
Speaker 2: help who they are. You know, you don't get the

875
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 2: shop for your genes. You don't get the shop for

876
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 2: your prenatal environment or the environment you were exposed to

877
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:35,640
Speaker 2: as a child. You have no say in that matter.

878
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 1: You know.

879
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, you didn't get to pick your language. Yeah,

880
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:40,879
Speaker 2: you know, why should I hate you because you don't

881
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 2: speak my language? You know, you have no control over that.

882
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:46,319
Speaker 2: So I think we got to take a step back

883
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,680
Speaker 2: in a time out, you know, sober up and you know,

884
00:55:50,520 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 2: talk ourselves down from these partisan ledges, if you will,

885
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 2: and get back in touch with our common humanity. I

886
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 2: think that's the only way forward to solve this critical,

887
00:56:00,280 --> 00:56:04,840
Speaker 2: critical problem. But getting back to the biology you spoke

888
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:09,399
Speaker 2: before about dopamine. Really interesting study that goes to these

889
00:56:09,480 --> 00:56:13,360
Speaker 2: g WADS analyzes where scientists look at the genomes between

890
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 2: people who are on the far right and the far left.

891
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:20,759
Speaker 2: And one interesting thing did pop out of those analyzes

892
00:56:20,800 --> 00:56:23,880
Speaker 2: that has a pretty good that has pretty good statistical power,

893
00:56:24,560 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 2: is that there's a dopamine receptor that is different in

894
00:56:29,239 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 2: people on the far left who would be liberals, and

895
00:56:33,640 --> 00:56:37,320
Speaker 2: the way this dopamine receptor is modified. All the details

896
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 2: aren't worked out yet, but the correlation's pretty strong is

897
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 2: that those individuals would have greater thrill seeking activity. They

898
00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 2: need a larger dopamine hit in order to feel the

899
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:55,399
Speaker 2: pleasure that say, normal people would feel from a lesser experience.

900
00:56:56,080 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 2: So that would be behavior that's more consistent with what

901
00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 2: you see in your trademark liberal. Okay, they tend to

902
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:07,279
Speaker 2: be higher risk takers, they tend to explore more, they

903
00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 2: tend to be open to new experiences and new cultures,

904
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:15,400
Speaker 2: and you know, there was a personality traits that you

905
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:19,919
Speaker 2: would associate with liberalism, So that mutation might explain one

906
00:57:20,040 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 2: why liberals exist and two why humans started exploring around

907
00:57:24,680 --> 00:57:26,919
Speaker 2: the world. You know, it might go all the way

908
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 2: back to why we started migrating out of Africa in

909
00:57:30,640 --> 00:57:34,600
Speaker 2: the first place. So it's a really fascinating dichotomy, and

910
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 2: it's just one of the few genetic variants that seem

911
00:57:39,600 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 2: to exist between far left and far right individuals. Now

912
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:50,040
Speaker 2: there's also brain differences between liberals and conservatives, some of

913
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 2: which may have a genetic basis, But the end result

914
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:56,680
Speaker 2: is that scientists can look at a brain scan of

915
00:57:56,960 --> 00:58:00,880
Speaker 2: an individual they don't know anything about, and with about

916
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 2: seventy five percent accuracy, they can predict whether that person's

917
00:58:04,360 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 2: a liberal or a conservative. And you know what it

918
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:11,080
Speaker 2: boils down to. You mentioned it earlier. It's the size

919
00:58:11,120 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 2: of the amygdalo wow, which tends to be larger in conservatives, okay,

920
00:58:15,600 --> 00:58:20,640
Speaker 2: which means they have a greater capacity to sense threats

921
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:24,160
Speaker 2: and they have a greater concern that something might be dangerous,

922
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 2: whereas liberals would not have that grave of a concern.

923
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 2: Where liberal's brain differs is I'm blanking on the region

924
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 2: of the brain, but it's one of the analytical sections.

925
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:44,840
Speaker 2: So liberals will tend to see the complexity in problems

926
00:58:44,880 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 2: and try to figure out, you know, evaluate the situation,

927
00:58:50,360 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 2: you know, with a little more logical reason rather than

928
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:57,440
Speaker 2: fear and emotion. And I'm not saying either one of

929
00:58:57,480 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 2: those approaches is better or worse. You know, in my

930
00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 2: deal world, if you're thinking about small tribes where we evolved,

931
00:59:03,840 --> 00:59:05,600
Speaker 2: you know, one hundred and fifty to two hundred people,

932
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 2: it would be advantageous to have one half who are

933
00:59:09,640 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 2: really good at threat detection, and then maybe the other

934
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 2: half who are really good at evaluating that threat.

935
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:16,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. Nice, I like that, you know.

936
00:59:17,080 --> 00:59:21,320
Speaker 2: Working together to try to you know, hey, that's a

937
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:24,840
Speaker 2: good possibility. Let's think about it. Yes it is a threat,

938
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,600
Speaker 2: No it's not, and then move forward. So I think

939
00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 2: that might be one of the explanations why evolution has

940
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 2: kind of built this dichotomy into our society and we're

941
00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:35,440
Speaker 2: not taking advantage of it. Instead we're using it to

942
00:59:35,480 --> 00:59:35,959
Speaker 2: turn on.

943
00:59:35,840 --> 00:59:41,959
Speaker 3: One Well, it's also a potential explanation about how one

944
00:59:42,040 --> 00:59:46,680
Speaker 3: side is being massively motivated by somebody who is around

945
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:51,560
Speaker 3: generating fear and actually playing beautifully into that.

946
00:59:51,680 --> 00:59:52,120
Speaker 1: He's not the.

947
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 3: First, Right, he's not the first you lik in, not

948
00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 3: the first different countries around more right wing stuff. It's

949
00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:03,760
Speaker 3: all he's driven around the messaging that rallies them. It's

950
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:06,040
Speaker 3: always around fear and threat Right.

951
01:00:06,440 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 2: You're right, those are very potent motivators.

952
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 1: Wow, bloody interesting.

953
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:17,080
Speaker 3: So tell me this, Like, so, as you're discovering all

954
01:00:17,160 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 3: this stuff, and I can I can hear in you

955
01:00:20,120 --> 01:00:23,120
Speaker 3: that a lot of the discoveries that you have made,

956
01:00:23,560 --> 01:00:26,480
Speaker 3: it actually made you sort of sit back and look

957
01:00:26,520 --> 01:00:30,439
Speaker 3: at things a bit more objectively and go, wow, we

958
01:00:30,480 --> 01:00:34,120
Speaker 3: need to have a bit more compassion about this people,

959
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:36,520
Speaker 3: these people, and these people and these people and these people.

960
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:40,840
Speaker 3: But how does that, aside from that, how does all

961
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:43,840
Speaker 3: of this knowledge help us to live better lives?

962
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 2: Yeah? That's that was one of the main takeaways I

963
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 2: had in the process of writing this book. Exactly like

964
01:00:51,320 --> 01:00:53,640
Speaker 2: you said, I was blown away by some of the

965
01:00:53,680 --> 01:00:55,840
Speaker 2: science that's out there, some of the studies that have

966
01:00:55,920 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 2: been done that are shining a light onto these hidden

967
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 2: forces that are governing or influencing our behavior in ways

968
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:08,240
Speaker 2: that we have no idea that it's even happening. And yes,

969
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 2: it might bring up some unsettling questions with regard to

970
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 2: free will and things like that. But I look at

971
01:01:15,000 --> 01:01:18,320
Speaker 2: it more from a half glass, half full perspective and

972
01:01:18,360 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 2: that this knowledge is powerful. You know, if we know

973
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 2: that certain genes produce undesirable behaviors, we now have the

974
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:30,880
Speaker 2: technology or you know, it's the advent of Crisper and

975
01:01:30,960 --> 01:01:34,919
Speaker 2: gene editing might be able to eradicate some of these

976
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:38,760
Speaker 2: genetic defects that cause anomalist behaviors, just like we're using

977
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:42,920
Speaker 2: Crisper and gene editing to cure sickle cell anemia right now.

978
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:48,200
Speaker 2: You know, it's a wonderful time to be alive and

979
01:01:48,240 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 2: to see how the power of genetics can be utilized

980
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 2: for human benefit. Epigenetics is the same way. Scientists are

981
01:01:56,720 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 2: busy making epigenetic drugs that can either posit methylation marks

982
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:04,520
Speaker 2: or remove them. And now that we have Crisper, we

983
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:09,200
Speaker 2: can probably target those modification marks to very specific genes

984
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 2: and not have like off target effects. And then you know,

985
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:20,120
Speaker 2: we talked about maybe fixing transgenerational epigenetic inheritance with tools

986
01:02:20,200 --> 01:02:23,240
Speaker 2: like that. And the more we learn, the more we

987
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:27,000
Speaker 2: do these psychology experiments and learn how humans respond to

988
01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:30,800
Speaker 2: different stimuli and different environments. We can move forward with that.

989
01:02:31,520 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 2: And it's a little frustrating because it's such common sense that, yes,

990
01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 2: we need to provide children with outstanding, exceptional environments. You know,

991
01:02:41,840 --> 01:02:44,560
Speaker 2: we can need to remove them from situations that subject

992
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:48,400
Speaker 2: them from bullying and abuse and put them into encouraging

993
01:02:48,480 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 2: environments where they can be curious and learn and grow

994
01:02:52,320 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 2: up without you know, fear and paranoia. There was a

995
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:58,640
Speaker 2: very basic common sense things to do. And now we

996
01:02:58,720 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 2: have the biological evidence that suggest that, Look, if we

997
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:04,760
Speaker 2: don't get our act together as a society and we

998
01:03:04,840 --> 01:03:08,000
Speaker 2: don't invest in these poor children, they're going to grow

999
01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:08,800
Speaker 2: up to be a problem.

1000
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely.

1001
01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:11,360
Speaker 2: Why wait for that?

1002
01:03:11,800 --> 01:03:12,000
Speaker 1: Why?

1003
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:14,920
Speaker 2: And to me, it's just from a from a humane perspective.

1004
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:18,480
Speaker 2: You know, we can give all these millions of dollars

1005
01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 2: to all these violent activities that the world's engaged in,

1006
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 2: or we can invest it in poor people. But no,

1007
01:03:26,000 --> 01:03:29,160
Speaker 2: in America, it's pull yourself up by your bootstraps, right,

1008
01:03:29,680 --> 01:03:31,920
Speaker 2: you should be able to get out of poverty. And

1009
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:35,160
Speaker 2: I'm just like, all right, you think about that for

1010
01:03:35,200 --> 01:03:42,480
Speaker 2: a yeah, exactly, you read my mind. Just like we

1011
01:03:42,520 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 2: said at the outset, Paul, there are many different yous

1012
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:49,040
Speaker 2: in your genome, different versions of you. And someone who's

1013
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 2: criticizing a poor person because they can't get out of poverty.

1014
01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 2: Let's put your genome into that body and that environment,

1015
01:03:57,280 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 2: and let's see how you do. And if you do

1016
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:02,240
Speaker 2: that simple thought experiment, I think that would be sufficient

1017
01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 2: for a reasonable reasonable person to say, you know, I

1018
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:11,160
Speaker 2: really haven't been very compassionate or smart about this. You know,

1019
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 2: we really do need to be a little more humane

1020
01:04:13,320 --> 01:04:16,320
Speaker 2: and how we treat other people who are different than us.

1021
01:04:16,520 --> 01:04:16,920
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1022
01:04:16,960 --> 01:04:20,120
Speaker 3: Absolutely, to tell me this, But what are you excited

1023
01:04:20,120 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 3: about from with the future and particularly with emerging technologies

1024
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 3: and AI and.

1025
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:28,720
Speaker 2: All of that in your world.

1026
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:33,120
Speaker 3: Is there anything that you're particularly excited about right now?

1027
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:40,280
Speaker 2: Well, coming from a genetics background, I am really excited

1028
01:04:40,320 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 2: about the power for gene editing, but I also go

1029
01:04:43,240 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 2: into it with a little trepidation. I feel the same

1030
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:48,800
Speaker 2: way about AI. I think it can be a marvelous tool,

1031
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:53,600
Speaker 2: but it can also I can also foresee how it

1032
01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 2: could radically change society. So, like with respect to gene editing,

1033
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:02,439
Speaker 2: the compromise that forms in my mind is that yes,

1034
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:06,720
Speaker 2: it should be used for you know, like inherited blindness,

1035
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:11,320
Speaker 2: or to rid a family of generations of Huntington's disease,

1036
01:05:11,760 --> 01:05:13,720
Speaker 2: or to cure sickle cell anemia. I think those are

1037
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:15,959
Speaker 2: no brainers. If we have the power to fix those,

1038
01:05:16,600 --> 01:05:18,400
Speaker 2: I think it would be inhumane not to do it.

1039
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:22,480
Speaker 2: But when you get people who are saying they want

1040
01:05:22,480 --> 01:05:24,840
Speaker 2: to tweak this or that gene because it's been linked

1041
01:05:24,880 --> 01:05:28,479
Speaker 2: to improving memory or learning, that's where we get into

1042
01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 2: a really dangerous area because we don't know enough about

1043
01:05:33,440 --> 01:05:38,480
Speaker 2: how genetic networks integrate themselves to produce those sorts of activities.

1044
01:05:38,960 --> 01:05:41,400
Speaker 2: And we do see in some mouse models as well

1045
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:45,040
Speaker 2: as in humans who have off the charts intelligence. There's

1046
01:05:45,080 --> 01:05:48,600
Speaker 2: trade offs. You know, if you make these tweaks, like

1047
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:51,280
Speaker 2: in a mouse model, for example, to make them enhanced

1048
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 2: with respect to memory or learning, they're not as social

1049
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:59,680
Speaker 2: as they used to be. Interesting, there's something different about them,

1050
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:03,640
Speaker 2: and it just is a warning for us to be

1051
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:06,880
Speaker 2: to proceed with costion when we make a when we

1052
01:06:06,920 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 2: make a change in a gene that's linked to a

1053
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:13,360
Speaker 2: behavior or personality trait, we could be changing something else

1054
01:06:13,440 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 2: that might not be very.

1055
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:20,240
Speaker 1: Desirable unintended consequences. Right because gene genes have more that.

1056
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:25,120
Speaker 3: We're complex, very very complex ecosystems.

1057
01:06:25,360 --> 01:06:30,240
Speaker 2: And absolutely, and they don't work in isolation, like you said,

1058
01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:33,520
Speaker 2: They work with an environment, and a gene mutation in

1059
01:06:33,520 --> 01:06:36,560
Speaker 2: one environment may be great, but it might be horrible

1060
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:37,520
Speaker 2: in another environment.

1061
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:37,960
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1062
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:42,640
Speaker 3: Absolutely, Bill, this has been absolutely brilliant, fascinating.

1063
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:44,200
Speaker 1: I love the conversation.

1064
01:06:45,280 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 2: It's been a blasphemy. You've asked some excellent questions.

1065
01:06:48,000 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 1: So please to meet me. Is the name of the book?

1066
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:53,640
Speaker 1: Where do people go to get it?

1067
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 3: And is there are other places where they can follow

1068
01:06:56,600 --> 01:06:59,959
Speaker 3: you and your work? And just where are we saying people?

1069
01:07:01,200 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, they can buy the book anywhere. It's sold on

1070
01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:08,880
Speaker 2: Amazon and all sorts of bookstores, and you can learn

1071
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 2: more about the book. Follow additional articles that I've written

1072
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:15,600
Speaker 2: that are related to the book at author Bill Sullivan

1073
01:07:15,680 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 2: dot com.

1074
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:18,720
Speaker 1: Author Bill Sullivan dot com.

1075
01:07:18,800 --> 01:07:22,880
Speaker 3: Okay, get on at people, and your next book purchase

1076
01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:26,960
Speaker 3: should be pleased to meet me by Professor Bill Sullivan.

1077
01:07:27,200 --> 01:07:31,920
Speaker 1: Bill, this has been bloody awesome. Thanks very much, Ben, Oh.

1078
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:36,920
Speaker 2: Thanks Paul. I had a blast