Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat. We've recently
Speaker 1: retired Detective Chief Inspector Carolin O. Hair. I've got notes here, Carolyn,
Speaker 1: I'm almost going to give up the notes, so I
Speaker 1: was going to keep you on track. No, you don't
Speaker 1: have to be sorry, that's just so so funny. Some
Speaker 1: of the stories and serious, of course, Yeah, but yeah,
Speaker 1: the life and times of a police officer. No wonder
Speaker 1: you stayed in there so long. Why would you leave
Speaker 1: a job You get to do it like that, You
Speaker 1: get to do all this and they pay you for
Speaker 1: it exactly. And you found loving in the job too.
Speaker 1: Just the fact that you founded a siege.
Speaker 2: What can I say? It's novel.
Speaker 1: It was a long, cold.
Speaker 2: Night, the moon was bright.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there he was standing in his black overalls. Okay, enough,
Speaker 1: I'll get us both in the trouble. Close personal protection,
Speaker 1: dignitary protection. People don't know a lot about it because
Speaker 1: you see the people in the background. I always Jake
Speaker 1: when I was doing it on the blake that walks
Speaker 1: around in the dark suit with the sunglasses. I'm talking
Speaker 1: into your sleeve type situation. But it's a very important role,
Speaker 1: and it's a very complex role, isn't it.
Speaker 2: It certainly is.
Speaker 1: What was your involvement in that line of pleasing?
Speaker 2: Okay? So when I first went to Special Branch, we
Speaker 2: did close personal protection for internationally protected people and also
Speaker 2: Australian high office holders, so prime Minister, governor, General, premiers,
Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. I looked after Nick Griner,
Speaker 2: I looked after the Queen, Princess Diana, all of that
Speaker 2: sort of stuff. In the eighties, I was there at
Speaker 2: the Special Branch during the Bison tanery, so a lot
Speaker 2: of international dignitaries came out. So I had that experience,
Speaker 2: and then after the Royal Commission, I went back to
Speaker 2: counter terrorism policing and ran I was the operations manager
Speaker 2: and leading up to the Olympics, so I ran sort
Speaker 2: of investigations and intelligence and dignitary protection, but dignitary protection
Speaker 2: for the Olympics. Prior to that, ANDREWS. Lattery was in
Speaker 2: charge of DIGPRO. But when I became the operations manager,
Speaker 2: and then three weeks before the Olympics, I was thrown
Speaker 2: in as the commander for Dignitary Protection Operations of the
Speaker 2: command under Operations, so I had two hundred and forty
Speaker 2: police and you know, one hundred and fifty cars, ten
Speaker 2: of which were armored. BMW's had forty four of those
Speaker 2: police were AFP. We had nowhere to put the cars,
Speaker 2: nowhere to put the police. So they gave us a
Speaker 2: Regent Street police station, which I think might have been condemned,
Speaker 2: can't remember. We didn't even have seats for people to
Speaker 2: sit on. We had no So to work it all out,
Speaker 2: I sat down with Andrew's Slattery and just worked out
Speaker 2: a plan of attacks, said to all the cops go
Speaker 2: away for two days, don't destroy the cars.
Speaker 1: I remember that.
Speaker 2: Do you remember that I was six months pregnant at
Speaker 2: the time, so yeah, it was. It was a tough
Speaker 2: gig being so pregnant. And also just you know, a
Speaker 2: lot of the police had to do some of the
Speaker 2: more boring things, not running around with Chelsea Clinton or
Speaker 2: who did you look after it?
Speaker 1: I looked after the Bulgarian president until one of the
Speaker 1: Bulgarian athletes tested positive in the drugs or weightlifters. Then
Speaker 1: he left, and then looked after a Turkey group, which
Speaker 1: was quite interesting.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I got to see the opening ceremony, the closing ceremony,
Speaker 1: and front row seats in all the sports. I loved it.
Speaker 1: But the chaos and I just brought back so many
Speaker 1: memories when you said everything was happening, we're fighting over cars,
Speaker 1: like the logistics in homicide operations. I've organized big operations.
Speaker 1: You had seventy hundred police involved. That was chaos. It
Speaker 1: was chaos and no one knew how it was going
Speaker 1: to run, and it ran so smoothly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it did. I remember Princess Anne was what happened
Speaker 2: for the opening ceremony that organized buses for the dignitaries
Speaker 2: to actually go on the buses together so there wouldn't
Speaker 2: be a whole heap of motikaiates. Well, everybody decided, apart
Speaker 2: from Princess and God love her, that they would still
Speaker 2: go in their own. Motiicaid, I'm not getting on a
Speaker 2: bus important for that. So Donna Adney was actually looking
Speaker 2: after Princess and and she rang and said, she's the
Speaker 2: only one on the bus, right okay, I said, get
Speaker 2: her off the bus, put her in the back of
Speaker 2: a higher patrol car. We'll get a highway car down
Speaker 2: there and we will green light her out to be
Speaker 2: open e ceremony. Because she's part of the Olympic Committee,
Speaker 2: International Olympic Committee, it can't start without her. She was
Speaker 2: probably the most important to be there. So anyway they
Speaker 2: did that. Donna got off the bus. They're getting the
Speaker 2: higher patrol car, blue lighter all the way to Homebush.
Speaker 2: And she absolutely loved it. She had the time of
Speaker 2: her life. She really, you know, so some people were
Speaker 2: very high maintenance, but I look at people like her
Speaker 2: and she was, you know, really down to earth and
Speaker 2: very just no nonsense, get on with it. And quite
Speaker 2: happy to get into the back of a police car
Speaker 2: and be taken out. And the HIGHA guys, you know,
Speaker 2: they were pretty tough. They thought it was pretty exciting too.
Speaker 1: Like so many experiences I found and generally found that
Speaker 1: the heads of state were fine to deal with, but
Speaker 1: you had the people around them that would cause the
Speaker 1: cause the problems. And I remember with the Bulgarian president,
Speaker 1: He's had of security who was about six foot ten,
Speaker 1: and there was me and an AFP guy that I
Speaker 1: hadn't met before. So we're working under pressure and we'd
Speaker 1: only met the two days. You gave us the car
Speaker 1: and we got to know each other. I don't know
Speaker 1: where we went around and we checked sites. That's right,
Speaker 1: we go down the Bondai bitch and see what happens
Speaker 1: down there. But the head of security has come up
Speaker 1: and in the broken English, very serious voice, and who
Speaker 1: is looking after my president? And I'll go, I am,
Speaker 1: and seriously the disdain on his face. He just looked
Speaker 1: me up and down from hip to tamin. He's a
Speaker 1: six foot six foot eight, six foot ten, just this huge,
Speaker 1: bulking human boom. You are, yes, I am, And they
Speaker 1: they tested me. They left it because part of the thing,
Speaker 1: and you'd know that it's coordinating. It's about not just
Speaker 1: protecting their physical safety, but it said they're dignity. That's
Speaker 1: that's the word I was looking for and making it convenience.
Speaker 1: So when they come out of their room, the lift
Speaker 1: is there waiting for them, the cars out the front
Speaker 1: and all these things. You've got all these different heads
Speaker 1: of state, so we're all fighting each other to get
Speaker 1: things happening. And the one thing I learned on the
Speaker 1: course that holds you random. I'll talk talk about that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I owe him big time, and not in a good way.
Speaker 1: But the one thing that was drummed into me, don't
Speaker 1: if you're the principal officer looking after the head of state,
Speaker 1: stay with them wherever you go, stay with them. I'm
Speaker 1: coordinating the lifts. This is in the early stages, and
Speaker 1: I don't know miss the lifts or whatever. He's gone down,
Speaker 1: The president's gone down. He's in the car and they've
Speaker 1: just driven off, and I'm standing there in my suit
Speaker 1: and thinking the main street of Sydney. I'm thinking. The
Speaker 1: one thing that was drummed into me, don't lose sight.
Speaker 1: Don't lose sight of your person. And I thought, okay,
Speaker 1: just put Pride in the back and I sprinted down,
Speaker 1: sprinted down the road, chasing after this car, called them
Speaker 1: about a kilometer down the raid, jumped in the car
Speaker 1: and they've looked at me and laughed, and it was
Speaker 1: almost like a test, going all right, you're okay, you're
Speaker 1: okay now. But the course, I've got to say, the
Speaker 1: three week course we did out that Holsworthy Army base.
Speaker 1: And this is how Halty and I love him but
Speaker 1: hate him in equal parts.
Speaker 2: I think everyone does.
Speaker 1: He set me up big time. And I caught up
Speaker 1: with him a couple of years ago and he was
Speaker 1: still laughing about it. A lot of it. We do
Speaker 1: a lot of shooting and all the things that you
Speaker 1: do for upskilling, and also a bit of physical stuff.
Speaker 1: And there was a bloat there in the army that
Speaker 1: was just this. He looked like he'd been carved out
Speaker 1: the stone. And he was a boxer, a top boxer,
Speaker 1: so he was putting us all through rounds with him.
Speaker 1: You'd step in and I did a bit of boxing
Speaker 1: and I thought I can look after myself, and I'm
Speaker 1: watching how the other people on the course are going
Speaker 1: through when they're stepping in stepping with him, and I'm
Speaker 1: thinking this is this is easy step in their touch gloves,
Speaker 1: and then he proceeded to beat the ship out of it,
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking this is getting real. So it's started
Speaker 1: started to turn. It turn into a fight, and I'm
Speaker 1: fighting as best I can to save myself and getting
Speaker 1: a bit cut up and smashed and all that, and
Speaker 1: I'm thinking, what the fuck, what's this bloke up? Because
Speaker 1: I've watched six flakes going before me and it was
Speaker 1: just all friendly, just a bit of play play fighting.
Speaker 1: And when I get out, I'm wiping the blood off
Speaker 1: my nose or whatever. And Holt he's having a bit
Speaker 1: of a snicker and I've gone, what's so funny? Said,
Speaker 1: I don't know what set that bloke off. He's got
Speaker 1: an idea, And Holdy Holty had told the bloke, this
Speaker 1: army bloke, I'd never met, this, this tough dude that
Speaker 1: I was seeing there watching and I reckon I could
Speaker 1: take him, Thank you, Halty, And yeah, I thought it
Speaker 1: was a very very good, very good get. But with
Speaker 1: the Olympics and you said you signed the overtime form,
Speaker 1: the hours that we were working were chaotic too, but
Speaker 1: it was something that was unprecedented, and a lot of
Speaker 1: people had to step up, and I was proud of
Speaker 1: the way a round sort of stepped up individually.
Speaker 2: Oh they really did. And even like in the command
Speaker 2: center that we had set up at Regent Street, so
Speaker 2: I had roster guys who were working basically twenty four
Speaker 2: to seven. God love them radio operators. None of them
Speaker 2: wanted to be in there, and I rotated some of
Speaker 2: them through so that they got a chance to actually
Speaker 2: get out of there and experience what was going on.
Speaker 2: But I think I had a budget overtime of one
Speaker 2: and a half mil. And after about six days in
Speaker 2: I said to the roster guys, you know, it was
Speaker 2: like eleven PM or something, and I thought, I wonder
Speaker 2: how much I've signed. I said, look, mate, can you
Speaker 2: do a quick calculation for it? They said yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: they were working twenty four to seven, and they said
Speaker 2: we'll have it for you tomorrow morning. So I went
Speaker 2: in the next morning at six am or whatever, and
Speaker 2: they said, you're only up to like seven fifty or
Speaker 2: eight hundred whatever it was.
Speaker 1: And I must admit, I've probably saved you a bit
Speaker 1: of money because I was having so much fun sometimes
Speaker 1: I didn't even put in the other plaform. So I
Speaker 1: remember the cars. I remember sleeping in the car at
Speaker 1: one stage, because you're at the whim of where this
Speaker 1: person wanted to go. And if that person felt like
Speaker 1: I'm going to hang out all night, you're out all
Speaker 1: night and there was nothing you could do about it,
Speaker 1: and you're back there the next morning. But yeah, it
Speaker 1: was a fascinating experience.
Speaker 2: And there were seventy one people that we looked after,
Speaker 2: internationally protected people, Henry Kissinger, Chelsea Clinton, you know, a
Speaker 2: prince from Saudi, like the breadth of people, kings, queens, whatever,
Speaker 2: heads of state. It was just really unbelievable. And for
Speaker 2: our people to actually look after those people and meet
Speaker 2: those people, have those opportunities was really great.
Speaker 1: It was fantastic. And you're meeting people that you've heard
Speaker 1: about their reputation and you're meeting them, and most of
Speaker 1: them they treat you quite well. It wasn't so that
Speaker 1: you weren't to just get out of my way. I
Speaker 1: remember sitting in a restaurant having dinner with a princess
Speaker 1: from a particular country, and it was like she was
Speaker 1: on a Friday night out. She just wanted to go
Speaker 1: out and party. Absolutely, but you've got to do it
Speaker 1: and you've got to keep your wits about you and
Speaker 1: make sure. But everyone that worked on it had just
Speaker 1: fond memories of it that were such such an experience,
Speaker 1: and there was a real positive vibe about the whole thing,
Speaker 1: wasn't it. The weather was great. It just was great
Speaker 1: to be part of.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think if people were out and about
Speaker 2: it was to do with the Olympics.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I had one constable who I worked with a lot,
Speaker 2: and last year he came up to me and apologized
Speaker 2: about the Olympics because he was working at the airport
Speaker 2: and he knows who he is and he didn't want
Speaker 2: to be working there. He wanted to be That was yeah.
Speaker 2: But at the airport, you facilitated all of them coming in,
Speaker 2: so you got to meet everybody. And he said, oh,
Speaker 2: do you want to be working at the airport? I said, well, look,
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what. How would you like to work
Speaker 2: in the car park at home Bush because I can
Speaker 2: organize that. I'm six months pregnant, mate, I'm not in
Speaker 2: the mood, so I like it or lump it. You
Speaker 2: can be out there or anyway. So and he came
Speaker 2: up to me last year just before I retired. He said,
Speaker 2: I'm really sorry. I said, sorry for what he said,
Speaker 2: you know, being.
Speaker 1: I do understand it, like I was fortunate because I
Speaker 1: went out every day, didn't have a day in and
Speaker 1: got to see front row seats watching all the sport,
Speaker 1: and I just couldn't believe it and think this is
Speaker 1: I'm glad that I joined the police.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. I don't know if you had one of the
Speaker 2: cars that had the number plates special number plates though
Speaker 2: were Olie. They were all Olympic number plates. So my
Speaker 2: police car that I had, you know, I come in
Speaker 2: the morning and that afternoon when I or that night
Speaker 2: when I was going home, the plates are be gone.
Speaker 2: So I came in every day and there was a
Speaker 2: constable and I said, look, the plates have been knocked off.
Speaker 2: Can you report them stolen? Happened about seven times anyway,
Speaker 2: On the last day I came in and I said, oh,
Speaker 2: the plates have been stolen. He said, oh, look about that.
Speaker 2: Just want to let you know that, you know, I
Speaker 2: reported the plate, Stolin, I accidentally reported the car. Stolin said,
Speaker 2: so I've been driving a stolen car? Is that? Is
Speaker 2: that what you're telling me? And he said, well yeah,
Speaker 2: but he said, but who's going to pull you over?
Speaker 1: Maybeck Rick might have pulled you over high risk of defender.
Speaker 2: Oh no, And we actually had one car missing. At
Speaker 2: the end of it all, we had all the one
Speaker 2: hundred and fifty cars and like two weeks after the Ompic.
Speaker 1: Carol and I deny that allegation. I bought the car back.
Speaker 2: It was an AFP guy row you up, said mate,
Speaker 2: where's the car? Oh you want the car? Yes, doesn't
Speaker 2: actually belong to you.
Speaker 1: Bring it. It's worth worth a try.
Speaker 2: I know. I was about to report it Stolin. I said,
Speaker 2: if we don't get it back to that because we
Speaker 2: couldn't figure out where it was, like one hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty cars or whatever. Yeah, so he reluctantly.
Speaker 1: I had so much fun. I signed up for the
Speaker 1: Para Olympics, but then homicide squad worked out I wasn't
Speaker 1: wasn't there, and they run They pulled me away from that.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to leave. I was enjoying myself. But
Speaker 1: all the different nationalities they had different and this was
Speaker 1: the exciting thing about it. Depending on who you were
Speaker 1: working for or looking after, there was different ways you
Speaker 1: had to approach it, and the Bulgarians could not understand,
Speaker 1: for the life of life of them, you're a policeman.
Speaker 1: Why we have to stop because you know we're doing
Speaker 1: the bomb checks and all that. But can't you just
Speaker 1: say you're a policeman and they let you through. They
Speaker 1: couldn't comprehend that. And I looked after some Saudi princes
Speaker 1: on a night. That was an interesting experie. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: you can imagine and everything you're imagining, Yeah, was going down.
Speaker 1: But full credit to you, Like all jokes aside, like
Speaker 1: for an operation that was major, did they give you
Speaker 1: much preparation before then? Like I know it was a
Speaker 1: long time in the place.
Speaker 2: Yeah, not for that particular role. I thought I would
Speaker 2: be involved in investigations and intelligence for the Olympics, but
Speaker 2: my commanders at the time said, no, you're going to
Speaker 2: be running the You'll be the operations commander for dignitary Protection.
Speaker 2: And I was very pregnant. And it's funny because at
Speaker 2: that time Rick actually was successful in getting a deployment
Speaker 2: to East Tmoor. Yeah, so he was leaving in two
Speaker 2: months and I was command posted and I was talking
Speaker 2: to the team about it. Gary Merriweather was there Mick Watkins,
Speaker 2: and I said, I don't know what I'm going to
Speaker 2: What am I to do with Rick's away when I
Speaker 2: have the baby? You know, I was so stupid. I
Speaker 2: was such an idiot. I had no idea what happens
Speaker 2: when you have a baby. And Gary me Merriweather said
Speaker 2: to me, you know what case you said, I'll go
Speaker 2: with you. I said, what he said, Well, my wife's
Speaker 2: had three kids, it's no big drama. I'll go with you.
Speaker 2: I said, all due respect, you know, but seriously so.
Speaker 1: But nice of him, but the gesture was nice. But yeah, okay, well,
Speaker 1: congratulations on that, because that was from what I saw
Speaker 1: in my police career. It was one of the largest
Speaker 1: operations I've seen police do, and I was proud of
Speaker 1: the way it came off. Everyone had a good time.
Speaker 1: We didn't lose anyone. I almost lost a police car.
Speaker 2: If that's the worst that happens. Hey, we're doing.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, let's stop us reminiscing about the times at
Speaker 1: the Sydney Olympics prosecuting police prosecuting. I just throw this
Speaker 1: up as a conversation starter that I feel sorry for police,
Speaker 1: current police that they don't get the court experience we
Speaker 1: used to get when we first went in and a
Speaker 1: week wouldn't go by when I was a young detective,
Speaker 1: when I wasn't in the witness box being beat up,
Speaker 1: and it gives you the confidence. I never feel comfortable
Speaker 1: when I'm about to give evidence. It's always a nervous
Speaker 1: and you should feel nervous because the stakes are pretty high.
Speaker 1: But you got tall and you got to cut your
Speaker 1: teeth in the local court and all that. What's your
Speaker 1: your take on the way police give evidence in the
Speaker 1: witness box? You see some very good plaice give evidence
Speaker 1: and you see others that they're out of their depth.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know what, I think, it's really interesting.
Speaker 2: When I joined in nineteen eighty one, there was still
Speaker 2: the situation where you where the probationary constable who locked
Speaker 2: up somebody for whatever it was, read the facts, would
Speaker 2: give the facts from the witness box. Okay, yeah, so
Speaker 2: you would go and they'd say right this. It was
Speaker 2: kind of like, you know, your first kind of blooding
Speaker 2: is to go in and give the So you got
Speaker 2: used to actually sitting in the witness box and just
Speaker 2: even if you're reading the facts, it's just sitting in
Speaker 2: that environment where everybody's looking at you, you know, expecting something.
Speaker 2: And I think that that would be a really great
Speaker 2: thing for just young police now to be able to
Speaker 2: just go and get exposure, to get exposure and all
Speaker 2: that sort of stuff and just without any pressure, just
Speaker 2: you know, because the young when they start, like I was,
Speaker 2: you know, just nineteen and gosh, I'd never been a
Speaker 2: court before in my life.
Speaker 1: It was terrifying the first time.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, not just the first time like most times talking. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it was terrifying. And I think if we did that,
Speaker 2: you know, I know, look, it's not easy, and time
Speaker 2: is poor and all that sort of stuff, But I
Speaker 2: just think preparation. And you know, as a prosecutor, you'd
Speaker 2: have people coming in at ten o'clock as you're standing
Speaker 2: at the bar table giving you this statement and that's
Speaker 2: the first you've ever seen of it. You're calling your
Speaker 2: first witness and you haven't seen the brief, so that
Speaker 2: sort of stuff. But look, I understand it is hard,
Speaker 2: you know, the time poor and all the rest of it,
Speaker 2: but you know, you've got to be prepared if you
Speaker 2: want to be professional, do your homework and preparation.
Speaker 1: You've just said that the preparation was the key. If
Speaker 1: you didn't prepare, And that's why I think being nervous
Speaker 1: or petrified or whatever we want to call it before
Speaker 1: you get in there, you've got to have that. You've
Speaker 1: got to have that adrenaline going through, so you do
Speaker 1: the work beforehand. And on the very rare occasions where
Speaker 1: I haven't been prepared, I've been shown up to be
Speaker 1: lacking in the witness box. And preparing is understanding the brief,
Speaker 1: getting it in your head so under pressure you can
Speaker 1: answer the questions.
Speaker 2: And yeah, well the other thing is too that in
Speaker 2: the old days we actually had to remember our evidence,
Speaker 2: so especially at district court or Supreme court, and you
Speaker 2: get six pages into your evidence and then the prosecutor,
Speaker 2: I'll just stop you there, and you're like, don't stop
Speaker 2: me because and then there's that right now, you know,
Speaker 2: from whatever, and just like, okay, what a minute, I've
Speaker 2: got to go right back to the beginning.
Speaker 1: Now. It seems it seems ludicrous, doesn't it, But that
Speaker 1: was And I can still remember statements from thirty years
Speaker 1: ago that it seemed to be every Sunday was spent
Speaker 1: just going over it. And I'd collocated, I said, he
Speaker 1: said and colocated with highlighted pens. Learn it verbatim verbatim,
Speaker 1: and you get in the witness box and you might have,
Speaker 1: as you said, six pages even more of conversation and
Speaker 1: details that you had to hit word for word. Otherwise
Speaker 1: the defense was going to exploit, exploit it absolutely, And
Speaker 1: didn't you feel so good after you finished it?
Speaker 2: Absolutely? Like cross examination is nothing after that. But I
Speaker 2: think it was a bit of a shock for the
Speaker 2: jury for police to get in and give this dire
Speaker 2: tribe of evidence and they'd be thinking, how did they remember?
Speaker 2: You know, you could see the jury thinking wow, like.
Speaker 1: It was crazy. It was theater. You were there performing
Speaker 1: and you sit there with confidence, and you rattle off
Speaker 1: six pages verb batim of conversation and then defense will
Speaker 1: take you back when they said you saw it. Did
Speaker 1: they actually say you saw it? Or they thought they
Speaker 1: saw it, and they'd try to confuse you. But I
Speaker 1: suppose because you learnt it that way, you could then
Speaker 1: argue it back because when they started to allow us
Speaker 1: to read, and that was a big thing. If you
Speaker 1: got the court and the defense of agreed to let
Speaker 1: you read your statement.
Speaker 2: Oh thank goodness.
Speaker 1: But then you got a little bit more relaxed about it,
Speaker 1: and you didn't learn the statement as much as you did,
Speaker 1: so that sort of I had to wind myself back
Speaker 1: and just make sure you get it into your head
Speaker 1: all the information that you needed. Did you enjoy prosecuting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I loved prosecuting. It was very different to being
Speaker 2: in plane close because every day was something different. So
Speaker 2: you didn't have matters that went over you know, you
Speaker 2: didn't have investigations that went for days, months, weeks, years.
Speaker 2: Everything was fresh every single day, well most of the
Speaker 2: time unless you had a part her. But I really
Speaker 2: loved prosecuting. It was great. I worked with great people,
Speaker 2: Like I said, Party Parcel, Dave Parcel and Steve McGrath.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they were around for a long time. Col Kennedy,
Speaker 1: cole he was.
Speaker 2: Cold Kennedy, Yeah, absolutely, and they were just champions and
Speaker 2: just and some of them have gone on to be magistrates.
Speaker 2: Dom McClellan we did law together, you know. Yeah, it
Speaker 2: was great. It was a great learning ground. And the
Speaker 2: only thing about prosecutor is I love to argue. They
Speaker 2: love to argue. Oh why don't you arguing in the office,
Speaker 2: because I can't be bothered like argue about whether sun
Speaker 2: comes up in the east of the West.
Speaker 1: I don't care Les Crawford. Did you ever work with
Speaker 1: Les Crawford.
Speaker 2: No, I didn't, but I've heard about it.
Speaker 1: Okay. Le's used to terrorize me in my early days
Speaker 1: as a young detective. I'd walk into the prosecutor's office
Speaker 1: and they're always busy, and that's I honestly don't know
Speaker 1: how you get your head around all those different briefs,
Speaker 1: Like there's a queue outside the office, we're at court
Speaker 1: that I'd always bring my brief in. Lesard look at it,
Speaker 1: and on occasions he'd throw it on the floor and go, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'll do my best to like it was a good brief.
Speaker 1: Find out it was a good brief. But that was
Speaker 1: that was just Les's way. But I love liked having
Speaker 1: hair prosecuting because he knew how to argue when he's
Speaker 1: good on his feet and the Yeah, so many skills
Speaker 1: that a good prosecutor has to have.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just learning from the best, watching them and
Speaker 2: just you know, they were so confident and all that
Speaker 2: sort of stuff. And yeah, I remember Steve McGraw was
Speaker 2: calling the list once at Blacktown, which was you know,
Speaker 2: like you know Eighten inches high and there was a
Speaker 2: plea matter and I couldn't find the brief in all
Speaker 2: the papers, like and so at monty two, I said, oh, Steve,
Speaker 2: this person wants to plead and like, I can't find
Speaker 2: the papers. And he went through all the papers in
Speaker 2: the whole office couldn't find it. And then he came
Speaker 2: over and he went through everything that I had and
Speaker 2: it was in there. And you know what, he didn't
Speaker 2: get up me. He didn't call me for I just
Speaker 2: felt so embarrassed that he'd been through everything. But he
Speaker 2: was such a nice guy and he just you know,
Speaker 2: he said, don't worry about it. It's all good, you know,
Speaker 2: like just really good people.
Speaker 1: The people like that make a difference, don't ye, Yeah,
Speaker 1: act of kindness? Did you when you were prosecuting? Did
Speaker 1: you ever find yourself? Because sometimes I sit there in
Speaker 1: court and you know, I'll be critical of the prosecutors
Speaker 1: or the defense, so why don't they go down this pathway?
Speaker 1: But when you're standing on your feet and sometimes you just, yeah,
Speaker 1: your mind goes blank. Yes, did you ever have any
Speaker 1: moments like that? Whek?
Speaker 2: Unfortunately? Where am I I had one? Once? The magistrate
Speaker 2: a black town trying to think of his name. He
Speaker 2: was such a lovely man. And I was cross examining
Speaker 2: and I was just going around in circles. Honestly, it
Speaker 2: was just crap. And he said, misso hair, I thought,
Speaker 2: here it comes. So is this cross examination going anywhere?
Speaker 2: I said, I don't think so. He said, then sit down,
Speaker 2: and I said, And he said to me afterwards, he said,
Speaker 2: I can't believe you just sat down. I said, Well,
Speaker 2: it wasn't going anywhere.
Speaker 1: Sometimes the best.
Speaker 2: He said, you know, it's just you know, I did
Speaker 2: my best, and obviously that wasn't real good.
Speaker 1: So again, you put yourself in pressure positions like prosecuting,
Speaker 1: pressure negotias. Did it take a toll on you? Or
Speaker 1: is it I see the laugh of it comes through.
Speaker 1: Did you just try to look at the bright side
Speaker 1: of things? Yeah.
Speaker 2: Look, I'll tell you what. There were a lot of
Speaker 2: pressure things, but I think it was rewarding as well.
Speaker 2: At the end of it, like you do, oh you know,
Speaker 2: I'll be like, oh my god, I'm going to do
Speaker 2: this matter d And then you know, ask people who
Speaker 2: knew better than me what to do and all that
Speaker 2: sort of stuff. And I think just having that camaraderie
Speaker 2: with you know, with your mates and all that sort
Speaker 2: of stuff and throwing it around and everything. Yeah. Look,
Speaker 2: definitely I was anxiety ridden lots of times. But I
Speaker 2: think you just get on with it. I don't know, yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 1: Well, I think it keeps you stimulated if you're challenging
Speaker 1: yourself and exactly the roles that you've done was a
Speaker 1: challenge for you each time. But yeah, it's a sort
Speaker 1: of career path that you've taken. You're always putting yourself
Speaker 1: out there and pressure pressure points.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've enjoyed that. You know, it has been stressful,
Speaker 2: but I have enjoyed it too, you know, when it's
Speaker 2: when it's all worked out.
Speaker 1: Well, of course, well lucky you were in the gachet
Speaker 1: before that, like prosecuting, or you might have met Rick
Speaker 1: and you might have been with a solicitor.
Speaker 2: Instead of that's exactly what a good thought.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, but you know what's really funny too, is when
Speaker 2: I started prosecuting, it's a totally different cross examining and interviewing,
Speaker 2: completely opposite, really it was. It was a really different.
Speaker 1: Mindset, how so exposed, Well, when you're.
Speaker 2: You're asking open questions as an investigator, whereas as a prosecutor,
Speaker 2: you're asking more closed questions.
Speaker 1: Okay, you're putting.
Speaker 2: Something to somebody, you did that. You'd never do that
Speaker 2: as an investigator, Yeah, you'd let them tell the story,
Speaker 2: whereas as a prosecutor, you're when you're cross examining, you're
Speaker 2: zero yeah. Zero. So that was really interesting. Actually, I
Speaker 2: remember thinking that at the time, why do we have
Speaker 2: open questions for investigator? And you know, obviously because of
Speaker 2: the law.
Speaker 1: But your academic studies they would have really come into
Speaker 1: help in that. I think, like criminology and law, you
Speaker 1: really would have been looking at things deeply.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. And I remember doing criminology and I did
Speaker 2: criminal law, and the first thing they said, right, we're
Speaker 2: going to learn defenses defenses to it. And I thought, well,
Speaker 2: what about the proofs, Like, as police, that's the first
Speaker 2: thing that's dumped into you. What are the proofs of
Speaker 2: last week? What are the proofs of murder? What? I said,
Speaker 2: but what about the proofs? And they weren't interested at all.
Speaker 2: That was a big shock to me, and I thought, wow,
Speaker 2: you know what this is. It's kind of like we've
Speaker 2: only got half the story if we don't look at
Speaker 2: the defenses as much as they did in that in
Speaker 2: that course, we're really missing out. It was really Yeah,
Speaker 2: there were certain like AhR moments and I thought, wow,
Speaker 2: I really need to know that much better than what
Speaker 2: I did.
Speaker 1: Yeah, before you're looking at it from two different sides, then,
Speaker 1: aren't you. So you have to get a better perspective
Speaker 1: on it. Counter Terrorism that's been a passion of yours.
Speaker 1: The work that you do in that space tells how
Speaker 1: you got into that, the interests, and what you find
Speaker 1: challenging and rewarding about working in the counter terrorism film.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I always say that I started working in
Speaker 2: counter terrorism long before it became sexy, long before nine
Speaker 2: to eleven when everybody suddenly worked in counter terrorism. So
Speaker 2: I went to a special branch in the eighties. I
Speaker 2: really wanted to go there. And it's funny because Nick
Speaker 2: Calders at the time is a great made of mind
Speaker 2: at the time and still is worked together when he
Speaker 2: was in uniform.
Speaker 1: Actually, and I can't imagine that it comes it was
Speaker 1: so cute shout out to you, Nick, out we're saying
Speaker 1: good things and that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he I think Nick was really interested in
Speaker 2: special branch. But at that time his career went in
Speaker 2: different directions, and I went and saw them and I said,
Speaker 2: this is what I'm interested in and all that sort
Speaker 2: of stuff, and they accepted me, which was really good,
Speaker 2: I think because I was a detective that stood me
Speaker 2: in good stead and there weren't many women there, and
Speaker 2: I think they realized they needed some women. So I
Speaker 2: did a lot of CANi terrorism intelligence and investigations with
Speaker 2: John Garvey and people like that, Bruce Moore, all sorts
Speaker 2: of really great people, and the Dignitary Protection as well,
Speaker 2: and it was full on during the Bison tenery and
Speaker 2: I worked with ASO and people like that as well
Speaker 2: at that time. And then I left and then after
Speaker 2: the Royal Commissioner, as I said, came back and initially
Speaker 2: ran CT investigations and intelligence when the Special Branch was closed,
Speaker 2: and so we had to resurrect a lot of relationships.
Speaker 1: It was early days, and we've had Dave gaul On
Speaker 1: here and talking about it. It was sort of after
Speaker 1: ninety eleven. Of course, the focus was, yeah, we need
Speaker 1: to get this up and running properly and efficiently, but
Speaker 1: it was an area of policing and a different challenge
Speaker 1: to policing that the average police officer doesn't see.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, nine to eleven changed everything in as much
Speaker 2: as before nine to eleven there was terrorism here. Most
Speaker 2: people didn't realize it, to be honest, but it was
Speaker 2: about foreign conflicts and where you know, foreign entity. Countries
Speaker 2: had a symbol here or a consulate or an embassy
Speaker 2: or something like that. In Australia, the attack was against
Speaker 2: another country in Australia, wasn't against Australia. After nine eleven,
Speaker 2: it was against Australia. We became, i think for the
Speaker 2: first time the target of terrorism, specifically because we were
Speaker 2: Australian and really Bali was obviously the.
Speaker 1: First big Bali bomb.
Speaker 2: There were two Bali's, one in two thousand and two,
Speaker 2: one in two thousand and five, and you know, really
Speaker 2: realized that we're a target here, we as Australians, the
Speaker 2: Australian government, which had really never happened before. So that
Speaker 2: was the major turning point. Yeah, and between two thousand
Speaker 2: and twenty fourteen there were no terrorist attacks in Australia,
Speaker 2: mostly because of the legislation. So they brought in what
Speaker 2: was called Acts in preparation of a Terrorist Act and
Speaker 2: that was really for conspiracy. It was like a conspiracy
Speaker 2: and which worked really well. But then in because they
Speaker 2: were big attacks that were planned and so there was
Speaker 2: plenty of time to disrupt. After twenty fourteen, they became
Speaker 2: much more simple. Do what you can where you are,
Speaker 2: with what you got. You don't have to kill one
Speaker 2: hundred kill one sort of thing for the terrorists. So
Speaker 2: that's what changed. And in twenty fourteen we had our
Speaker 2: terroist attack in which two police officers, a Victorian and
Speaker 2: an AFP officer were stabbed in Melbourne and they shot
Speaker 2: dead the offender, the terrorist, and that was a big shock,
Speaker 2: I think because it was the first time on our
Speaker 2: soil that a terrorist attack occurred and against police officers
Speaker 2: where the target which was pretty scary as well.
Speaker 1: Changed the landscape, doesn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really did. It changed the landscape. It made
Speaker 2: it very real. Yeah, it did make it very real.
Speaker 2: And then in quick succession there were a lot more
Speaker 2: where you had a loan actor or a very small
Speaker 2: group acting together.
Speaker 1: And you have to change your mindset from a police
Speaker 1: officer's point of view, because quite often the way in
Speaker 1: major crime we're reactive. Something happens and then we come
Speaker 1: in and investigate it. But yeah, the major goal of
Speaker 1: doing your job there if there's no one hears anything, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're preventing the crimes.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. It's got to be very proactive and that's a challenge.
Speaker 2: As you said, it's a totally different way of looking
Speaker 2: at things. You're not waiting for something to happen, and so, yeah,
Speaker 2: being proactive is you've really got to work with your
Speaker 2: agency partners.
Speaker 1: And there's a pressure that comes with that, like being proactive,
Speaker 1: because it's not a matter of well, it's happened, we're
Speaker 1: going to do our best to find out why it happened,
Speaker 1: but you're preventing it to happen again. Did you find
Speaker 1: find that pressure in the work that you did in
Speaker 1: the counter terrorism space.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, it was. I would say a lot of
Speaker 2: people in counter terrorism every night go to bed thinking
Speaker 2: hopefully it's not tonight. You know what I mean, what
Speaker 2: have we missed?
Speaker 1: Fingers crossed?
Speaker 2: What have we missed? What have we missed? Because you know,
Speaker 2: a successful terrorist attack is a failure in investigation and
Speaker 2: intelligence really so, and then you're working backwards and you
Speaker 2: don't want to be there. So it's always how can
Speaker 2: we pick up the nuances? And you know, different pieces
Speaker 2: of evidence or information. The other thing is you're dealing
Speaker 2: a lot with intelligence as opposed to evidence. So you
Speaker 2: get information as an investigator and you've got to translate
Speaker 2: that into evidence, and it's not.
Speaker 1: Easy break that down for people that when I understand
Speaker 1: what you're saying, but how would you describe it?
Speaker 2: O case, So we might get information from an overseas
Speaker 2: agency or another country that says, look, three people arrived
Speaker 2: in your country. We know that they're planning to do
Speaker 2: a terrorist attack. First name of one of them is
Speaker 2: nickers Nackers and they were last seen in you know,
Speaker 2: pick a suburb in Sydney. Okay, right, what does all
Speaker 2: that mean? Who are they? First of all, let's trying
Speaker 2: to identify them, what's their motivation? And when we have
Speaker 2: to prosecute, can we disclose where that information has come from?
Speaker 2: Did well you need a search warrant? Well? Where did
Speaker 2: you get the information? So the legislation had to keep
Speaker 2: up with the environment, so that had to change as well.
Speaker 2: So how do you take something that's just information? They
Speaker 2: might Oh, we've got information that there's a bomb on
Speaker 2: a plane and it's taken and the flight number is
Speaker 2: X y Z. They're leaving No DA DA DA in
Speaker 2: half an hour from Sydney Airport. What are you going
Speaker 2: to do? How do you then translate that piece of information? Firstly,
Speaker 2: how do you stop it from happening? Then secondly how
Speaker 2: do you actually how can you use that information as evidence?
Speaker 2: Because there's evidentiary rules and regulations obviously, and a lot
Speaker 2: of the time the intelligence we get and intelligence agencies
Speaker 2: don't understand evidence. To them intelligence, well you've got the information,
Speaker 2: do something. Yeah, well it's called the law. They actually can't.
Speaker 2: We actually can't. And sometimes listening device in legislation is
Speaker 2: different for some agencies. It's a lower threshold to what
Speaker 2: we have. So if they obtain it through a particular means,
Speaker 2: it's not necessarily good enough, good enough evidentiary wise for us.
Speaker 2: So they're real challenges and it's a matter of educating
Speaker 2: part agency partners about how we need something collected. But
Speaker 2: then that's got to comply with how they actually their
Speaker 2: their collection rules and yeah, so it really is a
Speaker 2: lot of cooperation and yeah, it's not.
Speaker 1: Easy, it's complex. But the again and I talk about
Speaker 1: talk about the pressure that comes comes with that, because
Speaker 1: if you're the person that flicks that piece of intel
Speaker 1: away and then something major happens when there's when there
Speaker 1: is an investigation, is how the hell did this happen?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Ah, Caroline saw it and just said, oh, I don't
Speaker 1: worry about that and put them away.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, yeah, absolutely there is. You've got to be
Speaker 2: so vigilant. And look, there is a lot of accountability
Speaker 2: in process and a lot of consideration and all that
Speaker 2: sort of stuff. And you know what, gds are the
Speaker 2: eyes and ears of the world. And whenever we'd go
Speaker 2: out to speak to the GDS, I would always say
Speaker 2: to them, you know what, you know your community, you
Speaker 2: know when something's wrong, you know who the players are.
Speaker 2: We're relying on you to be the eyes and ears
Speaker 2: in your community and to tell us what's going on,
Speaker 2: because you know, you're the experts.
Speaker 1: And that's good advice. And you would have seen it.
Speaker 1: I've seen it where specialist squads might get a swagger
Speaker 1: or an arrogance about them and don't rely on the
Speaker 1: grassroots level, which is the police out there on the streets.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you go to a domestic and you see stuff
Speaker 2: on a computer, or you see something stored in the backyard,
Speaker 2: what's going on? Don't you just think about why you're
Speaker 2: there for that moment, what else is happening.
Speaker 1: And pass that information on and not just for the police,
Speaker 1: like it's the community now we're we're all got a
Speaker 1: part in it, yeah, haven't we.
Speaker 2: Well. Norm Hazard, who was the first Assistant Commissioner for counterterrorism,
Speaker 2: he said, counter terrorism is the response of everyone, not
Speaker 2: just the cops, not just you know, intelligence agencies, not
Speaker 2: just the government, it's all of us.
Speaker 1: You worked as his staff officer, that would have been
Speaker 1: an interesting and good gig.
Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely, And was just one of those people that
Speaker 2: he was very dynamic and very smart and he was
Speaker 2: so respected by the government by Michael Costa when he
Speaker 2: was the Police Minister, and you know, they'd come and
Speaker 2: ask Norm questions and they said, well if Norm says
Speaker 2: it's okay, it must be okay, you know. Like and
Speaker 2: he got a standing ovation in Parliament when he retired
Speaker 2: because everybody respected him so much. And honestly, I remember
Speaker 2: one time, you know, he realized a capability gap that
Speaker 2: you know, he came in the next morning he said,
Speaker 2: what are we doing about this? He said, you know,
Speaker 2: I just was thinking about it last night and we
Speaker 2: need to cover off on this otherwise we're in a
Speaker 2: world of hurt, right, we need to do this. There's
Speaker 2: there's and it was just one of those people who
Speaker 2: was strategic in his thinking and he knew where it
Speaker 2: could come back to bite us if we didn't do
Speaker 2: something about it, and then he had the capacity to
Speaker 2: make it happen, So, which are really rare qualities.
Speaker 1: It's rare also that that, yeah, invariably and police people
Speaker 1: take sides or there's little clicks and all that, But
Speaker 1: I've never heard anyone speak badly of Norm Norm Hazard.
Speaker 2: No me either, And yeah, he really was a chap.
Speaker 2: He was very blunt. I do remember one time Nick
Speaker 2: Caldice rang from Iraq. When Nick was in Iraq and
Speaker 2: I was in Norm's office and Norm said, oh, how
Speaker 2: you going? He said, Look, every time I watched the
Speaker 2: news on TV and there's a I RAQ, I'm expecting
Speaker 2: to see you lying under a bit of rubble and
Speaker 2: Nick's like, yeah, yeah, thanks, good one.
Speaker 1: Norm.
Speaker 2: So he was very down to earth. He was very
Speaker 2: down to earth and just yeah, so much respect for
Speaker 2: and I think policing was his vocation. You know, some
Speaker 2: people policing is their vocation and for him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and look I think that's an important thing. And
Speaker 1: it saddens me where I see people use and clearly
Speaker 1: it was your vocation. It was my vocation too, and
Speaker 1: it was something that I was going to to do
Speaker 1: it untill the day I stopped working. Circumstances change. We'll
Speaker 1: talk about that, but anyway, but yeah, you joined it
Speaker 1: and you grew and I don't know about you, but
Speaker 1: every single day I came to work, I was learning something.
Speaker 1: I was upskilling and it didn't matter how long I've
Speaker 1: been investigating homicides or how long I've been doing this.
Speaker 1: I was learning something and adding it to the Okay,
Speaker 1: the experience. I'd like to see that with policing now.
Speaker 1: It really saddens me that not just in New South
Speaker 1: Wales but across the country, and I think even overseas
Speaker 1: police forces are struggling to fill people in those positions.
Speaker 1: People don't want to be police anymore. And I quite
Speaker 1: often question, what is it about? Is it because we
Speaker 1: want all the quick fix and all that, and policing
Speaker 1: can be a hard career. What's your thoughts on current
Speaker 1: policing and why are we struggling?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really difficult to know, but it is international
Speaker 2: it's world. Why that it's difficult. I think after the
Speaker 2: Black Lives Matter in the US, there was a lot
Speaker 2: of really and COVID. But I think all of those
Speaker 2: things apart from what's happening in policing, a lot of disruption, unrest,
Speaker 2: civil unrest which was pretty ugly in the US, and
Speaker 2: with COVID, everything was just so disrupted. And I went
Speaker 2: to a march out for Chief Inspector Jane Hansford. I
Speaker 2: don't know. I think she was in the job for
Speaker 2: like forty one years or something, and the Association said
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty when she joined, twenty six hundred people
Speaker 2: applied to join the police, and seven hundred and fifty
Speaker 2: were accepted. And we seem to have gone through these
Speaker 2: ebbs and flows and all the rest of it. But
Speaker 2: I think as people are better educated, perhaps that they
Speaker 2: don't want to join the police and be doing some
Speaker 2: of the stuff that you have to do that's not
Speaker 2: very pleasant. I don't know. I don't know the answer
Speaker 2: to that. I wish I did, but I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like I had a person like yoursel Phone
Speaker 1: or other people that have had outstanding careers and the police,
Speaker 1: and I hope people listening to this just understand that, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: there might be some tough things, but it can be
Speaker 1: so rewarding. Look, your face lights up every time you
Speaker 1: relay a story. If not, you're sitting there and go,
Speaker 1: I didn't like my job.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And it is rewarding, and I think
Speaker 2: there's great power in talking to young people about it.
Speaker 2: My daughter her at her school, I did canteen once
Speaker 2: a month. I'd go to work in the morning. I'd
Speaker 2: take a few hours of time. One so you can
Speaker 2: you manage time? Yeah, so you can manage that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you have a family and go down with the moms
Speaker 2: and they'd say, you know, at one o'clock I go
Speaker 2: back to work. They say, you go back to work.
Speaker 2: And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got to go
Speaker 2: back to work.
Speaker 1: It keeps you grounded to that type of thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And one of the moms, her daughter wanted to
Speaker 2: do criminology. She said, would you mind having a talk
Speaker 2: to her? Anyway, she came and saw me at work
Speaker 2: and spent the day with me at work and all
Speaker 2: the rest of it. And she did forensic science degree
Speaker 2: which would fast track her into FSG and at the
Speaker 2: end of it, she joined the Cops, and she loved
Speaker 2: it so much she didn't want to do forensics anymore.
Speaker 2: She just loved it in GDS. And I think that's
Speaker 2: the thing is, you know, when you're young and you're
Speaker 2: excited to be going to work and every day is different,
Speaker 2: there's so much there. And I said, you know, the
Speaker 2: world's at your feet. You can do whatever you want
Speaker 2: this And I think that's the thing. There's so much opportunity.
Speaker 2: And for me, I did so many different things. Not
Speaker 2: everybody's like that, but I was just endlessly curious about
Speaker 2: everything and I thought, oh wow, I really want to
Speaker 2: know that. And look, when I first joined the cops,
Speaker 2: there was no way I thought I could ever be
Speaker 2: a prosecutor. I thought there is no way, Like I
Speaker 2: remember reading those facts in the witness box and thinking,
Speaker 2: oh my god, thank god, I'm not the prosecutor, you know,
Speaker 2: And then later on I had the opportunity. And all
Speaker 2: of that training is free, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: Like you're being paid, you're being trained at the same time,
Speaker 2: and you come out with skills that you don't get
Speaker 2: anywhere else. And I think it's fabulous career.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and I hope people I hope people join.
Speaker 1: I think there's so much reward that I've got, rewards
Speaker 1: in ways that I just couldn't imagine when I walked
Speaker 1: out of the academy and it's been life changing. But
Speaker 1: I think life changing. I think I've become a better
Speaker 1: person because of what I've learned in the police. But
Speaker 1: some of the rewards that you get from policing, if
Speaker 1: you want a job that's challenging, exciting and rewarding, like
Speaker 1: it ticks a box for policing, it saddens me at
Speaker 1: the moment with the conflict at the top in the
Speaker 1: New South Wales Police, I don't like with our commission
Speaker 1: of the criticism that she's getting. You care to make
Speaker 1: any comments on that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's terrible. You know, we have to
Speaker 2: support our police and that's from the top to the
Speaker 2: bottom and the bottom to the top, all of them.
Speaker 2: And saddens me when I hear and I hate to
Speaker 2: say this, but a lot of retired police, sorry guys,
Speaker 2: if you're out there, how about your support the troops
Speaker 2: on the ground And a lot of them do, but
Speaker 2: also a lot of them, you know, make disparaging remarks
Speaker 2: and Karen Webb has got a tough job. I would
Speaker 2: not want to be the commissioner for all the team
Speaker 2: in China. I think it's a really tough gig. And
Speaker 2: I think she's really copying a lot of unfair criticism,
Speaker 2: and you know, just stop, just stop and let her
Speaker 2: do a job and steer the ship, keep it steady.
Speaker 2: You know, she needs support well, and doesn't help the
Speaker 2: cops ultimately to be sticking the knife in all the time.
Speaker 1: No, I don't think it's a good I don't think
Speaker 1: it's a good look for the public. It doesn't give
Speaker 1: the public confidence. And yeah, it would be such a
Speaker 1: better look if people were supporting and not undermining. And
Speaker 1: I'm looking from the outside, so I've got no internal
Speaker 1: skin in the game or knowledge in the game, but
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking clearly there's people with an agenda to
Speaker 1: cause mischief and make her job hard enough. I'd like
Speaker 1: to see them more focusing on doing what police should
Speaker 1: be doing and making sure we're living in a safe society.
Speaker 1: That would be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And I think the thing is too. The
Speaker 2: challenges I had forty years ago are very different in
Speaker 2: some respects to the challenges they've got today. They all
Speaker 2: wear body worn video. You know, terrorists want to kill them.
Speaker 2: We never had any of that sort of stuff. And
Speaker 2: they come on to shift and they've got twenty or
Speaker 2: thirty jobs outstanding, Like it's you know, it's tough. We
Speaker 2: need to support them.
Speaker 1: And when they're under resource, that just adds to the pressure,
Speaker 1: doesn't it. If you haven't got the troops, so you
Speaker 1: haven't got the staff, and that adds to the pressure.
Speaker 1: So yeah, shout out to the hard working, hardworking police
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's a tough job but rewarding. Yeah, since
Speaker 1: your retirement, it's only recently retired, but you're channeling your
Speaker 1: energy because Rick has neglected you and he's off playing policeman.
Speaker 2: That's it.
Speaker 1: How dare he do that?
Speaker 2: I know?
Speaker 1: Or is that you're asking him the work that you're
Speaker 1: doing with voter Do you want to explain that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: explain where it came from and what that's about, what
Speaker 1: you hope to achieve with it, because I think it's important.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. Well, it's victims of terrorism Australia. When
Speaker 2: I was in the police, probably about I don't know,
Speaker 2: ten or twelve years ago, I've always been fascinated with terrorism,
Speaker 2: but also I did a lot of research on the
Speaker 2: history of terrorism in Australia and particularly about the Hilton bombing,
Speaker 2: and everybody who's ever done any work with the Hilton
Speaker 2: always wanted to know who did it, who did it?
Speaker 2: Who did it? Well, we know who did it, Evan
Speaker 2: Pedderick went to jail and all the rest of it.
Speaker 2: But there's so much controversy around it, and I thought,
Speaker 2: who cares who did it? What about the people who
Speaker 2: were killed or injured? What about the victims? Nobody ever
Speaker 2: talks about them, nobody remembers them. And there are two
Speaker 2: City of Sydney council workers, Bill Favell and Alec Carter
Speaker 2: who were killed, and also in New South Wales police
Speaker 2: officer Paul Burmistru And I thought, I wonder who Paul
Speaker 2: Burmistry was, Like, what did he look like? I googled
Speaker 2: and I couldn't even find a photo of him or
Speaker 2: know anything about him. And I finally tracked his brother
Speaker 2: down and went to visit him and I said, I'm
Speaker 2: Caroline o Heir from New South Wales Police. You know
Speaker 2: your brother Paul was killed blah blah. He said, well,
Speaker 2: what are you doing here now? He died thirty five
Speaker 2: years ago or whatever. What what do you want. I
Speaker 2: was like, oh, okay, all right, okay, Well, I said, well, look,
Speaker 2: I think it's important that we remember him. And I said,
Speaker 2: especially a young police need to know who he was
Speaker 2: and what he was about and all the rest of
Speaker 2: it and what I honor him. And I said, and
Speaker 2: I just want to know what he looks like and
Speaker 2: who he was as a person. Anyway, we became really
Speaker 2: great mates. I became great mates with his brother woll.
Speaker 2: We organized memorials for the Hilton, and we got his
Speaker 2: medals that he was owed issued and presented to Woll.
Speaker 2: And it just got on the role of actually tracking
Speaker 2: down other victims. And one of the other guys who
Speaker 2: was there, Rod Wither, he's the last surviving New South
Speaker 2: I was police officer who was there. He came to
Speaker 2: our voter launch. So anyway, to cut a long story short,
Speaker 2: because my husband said I can talk underwater with a
Speaker 2: mouthful of marbles.
Speaker 1: I think that's unfair, just because he's saying, I want
Speaker 1: to storm the stronghold with these men in black overalls,
Speaker 1: and there you are just talking, talking, talking, talking, and
Speaker 1: then you guys get home and then you just.
Speaker 2: Talking talking, talking, Yes, and he just says, just stop,
Speaker 2: stop now, I feel for you. Yeah, that's it. So
Speaker 2: I thought, when I retire, I want to actually form
Speaker 2: a group that supports victims of terrorism. So with victims
Speaker 2: of terrorism, there's the there's circles of impact because it
Speaker 2: obviously impacts a lot of people. In the first circle
Speaker 2: of impact to those who were actually there during a
Speaker 2: terrorist incident, and I know that you've interviewed I hope before,
Speaker 2: so she would be in the first circle. Then in
Speaker 2: the next circle is the bereaved and those who've lost somebody, family, friends,
Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. The third circle of impact
Speaker 2: and they go out exponentially is are the first responders, witnesses, police,
Speaker 2: medical staff. And then the fourth impact is on the community.
Speaker 2: So terrorism is unique because it does affect everybody in
Speaker 2: the community, and we're all actually victims of terrorism in
Speaker 2: some way because we're all affected by it. Frightens us,
Speaker 2: that's what it's meant to do. And I saw that
Speaker 2: there was a real gap in support for a lot
Speaker 2: of people, and so I went to the Police Association.
Speaker 2: Actually I went to some really good friends, said please
Speaker 2: can you help, And there's a working party of ten people,
Speaker 2: some academics, former police such as Dave Eloyees and some
Speaker 2: victims all that sort of stuff. We got together and
Speaker 2: a neighbor of mine who's a lawyer, Poor thing, and
Speaker 2: we set up Victims of Terrorism Australia and the idea
Speaker 2: is that what we want to do is provide a
Speaker 2: couple of things. Firstly, peer support because getting together with
Speaker 2: somebody else who's been through a similar experience is very
Speaker 2: power empowering because victims of terrorism have been disempowered and
Speaker 2: to empower them, we want them to have a voice,
Speaker 2: so to be able to do that in a safe space.
Speaker 2: We also want to be able to educate the public
Speaker 2: about what terrorism is and how it affects people. So
Speaker 2: taking our victims out to meet the community where they
Speaker 2: can and they're willing to do that because people get
Speaker 2: to see the human side of what terrorism does. We
Speaker 2: also want to do some research about best practice for
Speaker 2: helping victims from around the world. And we want to
Speaker 2: do memorialization because that's very important, especially for the breathed,
Speaker 2: that their family members and the loved ones are not forgotten,
Speaker 2: and it's it's important for the communities. But like I
Speaker 2: was talking to somebody about it today, like with Anzac Day,
Speaker 2: the community. Some people don't have any connection to, you know,
Speaker 2: any of the wars, but they come to pay their
Speaker 2: respects for those people and it's it's a community thing
Speaker 2: and it's really important for the community to remember and
Speaker 2: to yeah, memorialize. So that's basically what we're about. It's
Speaker 2: very slow going. If you want to contact us, it's
Speaker 2: just contact at voter dot org dot au. And we've
Speaker 2: just got our website up and running thanks to Dave Gala,
Speaker 2: who's a genius, and that is voter v o t
Speaker 2: a dot org dot au.
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, well, good luck with that because the way
Speaker 1: that you've explained that there is that area that's been
Speaker 1: missed and people are often often forgotten. We talk about
Speaker 1: the attack, but the ramifications that flow on from it,
Speaker 1: and that's so. Yeah, it's good to see you busy.
Speaker 1: You're going to do another degree or something.
Speaker 2: Rick said, no more study.
Speaker 1: I believe it. I believe it when when I see it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you said, not forget it. I said, I was
Speaker 2: thinking about doing a master's. He said, nut, can't.
Speaker 1: Help yourself, cannot I actually do?
Speaker 2: You know? I really don't think I have it in
Speaker 2: me anymore. I'm quite happy never go to university again.
Speaker 1: How was it the day you left the police did?
Speaker 1: What was the feelings that you had when you walked
Speaker 1: out and you're no longer a cop?
Speaker 2: Well, it was quite funny because I had a march
Speaker 2: out from the SPC. So that morning we went in
Speaker 2: and I was all in my uniform for the last time.
Speaker 2: And Rick said, Okay, we're going to go down and
Speaker 2: do a shoot. Do you last.
Speaker 1: That's a good idea, that's very very romantic.
Speaker 2: You.
Speaker 1: I can see what you're seeing him. Let's go to
Speaker 1: the firing.
Speaker 2: Range, she said, and with a five shot.
Speaker 1: School the old school.
Speaker 2: And Rick had a shoot too. How excited.
Speaker 1: I can just say that love in the air.
Speaker 2: And I actually did much better than I thought I would.
Speaker 2: I said, can you keep that? You know, the s
Speaker 2: frame it. I said, just laminate it or something. I
Speaker 2: want to keep that. So did my shoot and then
Speaker 2: had the march out and everything, and at the end
Speaker 2: of it it was really nice. I had the bagpipes
Speaker 2: and then I got in an F one hundred and
Speaker 2: we drove around the block with the sirens going and
Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. It was a lot of
Speaker 2: fun and it was nice, and I was happy to go.
Speaker 2: It was time for me to go. I didn't hate
Speaker 2: going to work. I still enjoyed going to work, but
Speaker 2: it was time.
Speaker 1: It's a good time if you can leave it. Leave
Speaker 1: at that point, no regrets, enjoy, enjoyed every moment. Full
Speaker 1: credit to you. And I say this like, I know
Speaker 1: how hard you worked, and I know you weren't hiding.
Speaker 1: You were out there doing the work. And it was
Speaker 1: a long career. So you should be very proud, proud
Speaker 1: of you. Thank you. Yeah, do you think your life
Speaker 1: ahead of you? Now? You're going to find the enjoyment
Speaker 1: or the rewards like you're doing your voters. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Look, it's really funny because when you're about to reply
Speaker 2: retypele say what's your plan? What's your plan? You think,
Speaker 2: oh my god, I've got to have a plan. I
Speaker 2: don't know what my plan is. What's my plan? And
Speaker 2: I said, oh, I'm going to set up a victims
Speaker 2: of Terrorism's book grip. So after I left the next hour,
Speaker 2: I thought, now I've actually got to do it. I
Speaker 2: talked about it for long enough. I've got to do something.
Speaker 1: A big game. Yeah exactly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Look I really enjoy that, but I think, Yeah,
Speaker 2: when you've been really, really busy and involved in things,
Speaker 2: it's good to be involved in something that really has
Speaker 2: a great purpose. It's also nice not to be responsible
Speaker 2: for everything that happens around you.
Speaker 1: Yeah. When I left, the thing I know this most
Speaker 1: was the phone. I wasn't didn't have to be a
Speaker 1: slave to the phone before. The phone was with me
Speaker 1: the whole time, and you'd be called at any time,
Speaker 1: and your life could be turned upside down, and the
Speaker 1: areas that you worked, you had the same thing for
Speaker 1: the first six months. Why isn't anyone finning? Like why
Speaker 1: isn't the phone ringing at two o'clock in the morning.
Speaker 1: But now I look back and I realized the sacrifices
Speaker 1: that you made when you're on call, and all those
Speaker 1: times that you didn't see it when you're in the
Speaker 1: actual work. But it's nice to just step back and
Speaker 1: you can know you can go to bed and not
Speaker 1: worry about when waken up in the middle of the
Speaker 1: night and end up at crime scene or a siege
Speaker 1: with your boyfriends slash husband.
Speaker 2: Exactly.
Speaker 1: Sorry, I got I just think it's funny they should
Speaker 1: make a comedy out of those two I do have.
Speaker 1: I want you sorry.
Speaker 2: I was just going to say that. One night when
Speaker 2: I was on we used to live up at Rick's
Speaker 2: place at Mount kring Guy and for some unknown reason,
Speaker 2: at like two am, this is like nearly thirty years ago,
Speaker 2: shots fired. And I said to Rick, oh my god,
Speaker 2: it sounds like a gunshot. And he said it is
Speaker 2: a gunshot. I went, oh my god, it must really
Speaker 2: be a gunshot. To Frixate that was what he's talking about.
Speaker 2: And I was on call. I said, I'm god, I'm
Speaker 2: going to get my gun out. And he said, give
Speaker 2: me your gun. I said, I'm not giving you my gun.
Speaker 2: He say get your gut. He said, give me a
Speaker 2: gone because he didn't hurt me either. He's a better shot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's probably no criticism of what they've been.
Speaker 2: An arm toned up at our next door neighbor's house.
Speaker 2: Oh really, Oh my god, in this sleepy little suburb
Speaker 2: when nothing happens and it's right next door.
Speaker 1: That would have been great. You could have set up
Speaker 1: the prim Rick's here, the tactical team than the gay
Speaker 1: Shader was the.
Speaker 2: Most bizarrely, local cops came around. They said, I said,
Speaker 2: we're in the cops. Rix you to bah bah blah
Speaker 2: and all this sort of stuff. And they said, is
Speaker 2: anybody trying to kill you? I said, not that I
Speaker 2: know of.
Speaker 1: But now I cautioned you at the start of the
Speaker 1: yeah interview, so answer this carefully. Yes, please, please be honest.
Speaker 1: You we and Rick working at any time? Did Rick
Speaker 1: say to you when he's there with the tactical team,
Speaker 1: you're there with the gay shaders? Can we wrap this
Speaker 1: up quickly because I'm hungry. I want to gave for
Speaker 1: dinner or plans.
Speaker 2: No, not Rick.
Speaker 1: Rick.
Speaker 2: I might have said that, but not Rick. Rick is
Speaker 2: one hundred percent focused and very diligent and like really
Speaker 2: he really is in tactical well, whatever he does, he's
Speaker 2: a perfectionist.
Speaker 1: He would drives me nuts to cut the seed short
Speaker 1: just to get his haircut.
Speaker 2: No, yeah, or for me to make my appointment.
Speaker 1: Well, I just if you know, we learned things about
Speaker 1: guests when they come on. The one thing I've learned
Speaker 1: about you that you managed to wrap up a siege
Speaker 1: so you could get you your hair appointment. I didn't
Speaker 1: think i'd hear that on my catch killers.
Speaker 2: Yeah. We're happy with the cut absolutely, and the color fantastic.
Speaker 1: Fantastic. Let's end it on that note. Thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming in. I've had so much fun, and
Speaker 1: again full credit for your career.
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's been
Speaker 2: a pleasure.
Speaker 1: Cheers, cheers. I reckon. You get a sense of why
Speaker 1: Carolina Hair was so liked in the New South Wales Polace.
Speaker 1: She's a fun person and she's had an amazing career.
Speaker 1: I've got to say that was a fun chat. She
Speaker 1: always brings a smile to my face and some interesting stories.
Speaker 1: And I love the fact the relationship between her and
Speaker 1: the husband, who was a technical police officer and she
Speaker 1: was a negotiator. That just makes me laugh thinking about it.