1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,080 Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers. 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a 6 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 7 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 8 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 9 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 10 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 11 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 12 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 13 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. 14 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,519 Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat. We've recently 15 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:53,200 Speaker 1: retired Detective Chief Inspector Carolin O. Hair. I've got notes here, Carolyn, 16 00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: I'm almost going to give up the notes, so I 17 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,120 Speaker 1: was going to keep you on track. No, you don't 18 00:00:58,160 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: have to be sorry, that's just so so funny. Some 19 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: of the stories and serious, of course, Yeah, but yeah, 20 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: the life and times of a police officer. No wonder 21 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:09,759 Speaker 1: you stayed in there so long. Why would you leave 22 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: a job You get to do it like that, You 23 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: get to do all this and they pay you for 24 00:01:13,360 --> 00:01:17,040 Speaker 1: it exactly. And you found loving in the job too. 25 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,199 Speaker 1: Just the fact that you founded a siege. 26 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 2: What can I say? It's novel. 27 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: It was a long, cold. 28 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:27,960 Speaker 2: Night, the moon was bright. 29 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and there he was standing in his black overalls. Okay, enough, 30 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: I'll get us both in the trouble. Close personal protection, 31 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: dignitary protection. People don't know a lot about it because 32 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: you see the people in the background. I always Jake 33 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: when I was doing it on the blake that walks 34 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,760 Speaker 1: around in the dark suit with the sunglasses. I'm talking 35 00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: into your sleeve type situation. But it's a very important role, 36 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: and it's a very complex role, isn't it. 37 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 2: It certainly is. 38 00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: What was your involvement in that line of pleasing? 39 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:01,720 Speaker 2: Okay? So when I first went to Special Branch, we 40 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 2: did close personal protection for internationally protected people and also 41 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,760 Speaker 2: Australian high office holders, so prime Minister, governor, General, premiers, 42 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. I looked after Nick Griner, 43 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 2: I looked after the Queen, Princess Diana, all of that 44 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: sort of stuff. In the eighties, I was there at 45 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 2: the Special Branch during the Bison tanery, so a lot 46 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 2: of international dignitaries came out. So I had that experience, 47 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 2: and then after the Royal Commission, I went back to 48 00:02:30,919 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 2: counter terrorism policing and ran I was the operations manager 49 00:02:37,120 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 2: and leading up to the Olympics, so I ran sort 50 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 2: of investigations and intelligence and dignitary protection, but dignitary protection 51 00:02:47,720 --> 00:02:50,079 Speaker 2: for the Olympics. Prior to that, ANDREWS. Lattery was in 52 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 2: charge of DIGPRO. But when I became the operations manager, 53 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 2: and then three weeks before the Olympics, I was thrown 54 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 2: in as the commander for Dignitary Protection Operations of the 55 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:02,840 Speaker 2: command under Operations, so I had two hundred and forty 56 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 2: police and you know, one hundred and fifty cars, ten 57 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: of which were armored. BMW's had forty four of those 58 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 2: police were AFP. We had nowhere to put the cars, 59 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 2: nowhere to put the police. So they gave us a 60 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 2: Regent Street police station, which I think might have been condemned, 61 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 2: can't remember. We didn't even have seats for people to 62 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 2: sit on. We had no So to work it all out, 63 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:31,079 Speaker 2: I sat down with Andrew's Slattery and just worked out 64 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 2: a plan of attacks, said to all the cops go 65 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:36,760 Speaker 2: away for two days, don't destroy the cars. 66 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:37,680 Speaker 1: I remember that. 67 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 2: Do you remember that I was six months pregnant at 68 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 2: the time, so yeah, it was. It was a tough 69 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 2: gig being so pregnant. And also just you know, a 70 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 2: lot of the police had to do some of the 71 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: more boring things, not running around with Chelsea Clinton or 72 00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 2: who did you look after it? 73 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: I looked after the Bulgarian president until one of the 74 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,440 Speaker 1: Bulgarian athletes tested positive in the drugs or weightlifters. Then 75 00:04:05,480 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 1: he left, and then looked after a Turkey group, which 76 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:10,200 Speaker 1: was quite interesting. 77 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 78 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: I got to see the opening ceremony, the closing ceremony, 79 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: and front row seats in all the sports. I loved it. 80 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:20,800 Speaker 1: But the chaos and I just brought back so many 81 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: memories when you said everything was happening, we're fighting over cars, 82 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: like the logistics in homicide operations. I've organized big operations. 83 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,719 Speaker 1: You had seventy hundred police involved. That was chaos. It 84 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: was chaos and no one knew how it was going 85 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:38,600 Speaker 1: to run, and it ran so smoothly. 86 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, it did. I remember Princess Anne was what happened 87 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 2: for the opening ceremony that organized buses for the dignitaries 88 00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 2: to actually go on the buses together so there wouldn't 89 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 2: be a whole heap of motikaiates. Well, everybody decided, apart 90 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:57,559 Speaker 2: from Princess and God love her, that they would still 91 00:04:57,560 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 2: go in their own. Motiicaid, I'm not getting on a 92 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 2: bus important for that. So Donna Adney was actually looking 93 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 2: after Princess and and she rang and said, she's the 94 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: only one on the bus, right okay, I said, get 95 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,359 Speaker 2: her off the bus, put her in the back of 96 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 2: a higher patrol car. We'll get a highway car down 97 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 2: there and we will green light her out to be 98 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: open e ceremony. Because she's part of the Olympic Committee, 99 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 2: International Olympic Committee, it can't start without her. She was 100 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:28,760 Speaker 2: probably the most important to be there. So anyway they 101 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 2: did that. Donna got off the bus. They're getting the 102 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 2: higher patrol car, blue lighter all the way to Homebush. 103 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 2: And she absolutely loved it. She had the time of 104 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,560 Speaker 2: her life. She really, you know, so some people were 105 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 2: very high maintenance, but I look at people like her 106 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 2: and she was, you know, really down to earth and 107 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 2: very just no nonsense, get on with it. And quite 108 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 2: happy to get into the back of a police car 109 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 2: and be taken out. And the HIGHA guys, you know, 110 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 2: they were pretty tough. They thought it was pretty exciting too. 111 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 1: Like so many experiences I found and generally found that 112 00:06:05,080 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: the heads of state were fine to deal with, but 113 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,159 Speaker 1: you had the people around them that would cause the 114 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 1: cause the problems. And I remember with the Bulgarian president, 115 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: He's had of security who was about six foot ten, 116 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,919 Speaker 1: and there was me and an AFP guy that I 117 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: hadn't met before. So we're working under pressure and we'd 118 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:27,720 Speaker 1: only met the two days. You gave us the car 119 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:29,720 Speaker 1: and we got to know each other. I don't know 120 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: where we went around and we checked sites. That's right, 121 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: we go down the Bondai bitch and see what happens 122 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: down there. But the head of security has come up 123 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: and in the broken English, very serious voice, and who 124 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: is looking after my president? And I'll go, I am, 125 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: and seriously the disdain on his face. He just looked 126 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:53,039 Speaker 1: me up and down from hip to tamin. He's a 127 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 1: six foot six foot eight, six foot ten, just this huge, 128 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:01,880 Speaker 1: bulking human boom. You are, yes, I am, And they 129 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: they tested me. They left it because part of the thing, 130 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: and you'd know that it's coordinating. It's about not just 131 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: protecting their physical safety, but it said they're dignity. That's 132 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: that's the word I was looking for and making it convenience. 133 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: So when they come out of their room, the lift 134 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 1: is there waiting for them, the cars out the front 135 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,120 Speaker 1: and all these things. You've got all these different heads 136 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 1: of state, so we're all fighting each other to get 137 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: things happening. And the one thing I learned on the 138 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: course that holds you random. I'll talk talk about that. Yeah, 139 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: I owe him big time, and not in a good way. 140 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 1: But the one thing that was drummed into me, don't 141 00:07:41,080 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: if you're the principal officer looking after the head of state, 142 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 1: stay with them wherever you go, stay with them. I'm 143 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,640 Speaker 1: coordinating the lifts. This is in the early stages, and 144 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 1: I don't know miss the lifts or whatever. He's gone down, 145 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 1: The president's gone down. He's in the car and they've 146 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: just driven off, and I'm standing there in my suit 147 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 1: and thinking the main street of Sydney. I'm thinking. The 148 00:08:03,160 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 1: one thing that was drummed into me, don't lose sight. 149 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: Don't lose sight of your person. And I thought, okay, 150 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: just put Pride in the back and I sprinted down, 151 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:15,200 Speaker 1: sprinted down the road, chasing after this car, called them 152 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: about a kilometer down the raid, jumped in the car 153 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: and they've looked at me and laughed, and it was 154 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: almost like a test, going all right, you're okay, you're 155 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: okay now. But the course, I've got to say, the 156 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: three week course we did out that Holsworthy Army base. 157 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:31,400 Speaker 1: And this is how Halty and I love him but 158 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: hate him in equal parts. 159 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:34,079 Speaker 2: I think everyone does. 160 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: He set me up big time. And I caught up 161 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 1: with him a couple of years ago and he was 162 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,800 Speaker 1: still laughing about it. A lot of it. We do 163 00:08:40,880 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: a lot of shooting and all the things that you 164 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 1: do for upskilling, and also a bit of physical stuff. 165 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: And there was a bloat there in the army that 166 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 1: was just this. He looked like he'd been carved out 167 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: the stone. And he was a boxer, a top boxer, 168 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 1: so he was putting us all through rounds with him. 169 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: You'd step in and I did a bit of boxing 170 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: and I thought I can look after myself, and I'm 171 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: watching how the other people on the course are going 172 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: through when they're stepping in stepping with him, and I'm 173 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 1: thinking this is this is easy step in their touch gloves, 174 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 1: and then he proceeded to beat the ship out of it, 175 00:09:14,160 --> 00:09:17,040 Speaker 1: and I'm thinking this is getting real. So it's started 176 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,319 Speaker 1: started to turn. It turn into a fight, and I'm 177 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: fighting as best I can to save myself and getting 178 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: a bit cut up and smashed and all that, and 179 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,840 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, what the fuck, what's this bloke up? Because 180 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: I've watched six flakes going before me and it was 181 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: just all friendly, just a bit of play play fighting. 182 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: And when I get out, I'm wiping the blood off 183 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:39,679 Speaker 1: my nose or whatever. And Holt he's having a bit 184 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: of a snicker and I've gone, what's so funny? Said, 185 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: I don't know what set that bloke off. He's got 186 00:09:44,520 --> 00:09:48,280 Speaker 1: an idea, And Holdy Holty had told the bloke, this 187 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:51,360 Speaker 1: army bloke, I'd never met, this, this tough dude that 188 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:53,679 Speaker 1: I was seeing there watching and I reckon I could 189 00:09:53,720 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: take him, Thank you, Halty, And yeah, I thought it 190 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: was a very very good, very good get. But with 191 00:10:02,679 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: the Olympics and you said you signed the overtime form, 192 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: the hours that we were working were chaotic too, but 193 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,680 Speaker 1: it was something that was unprecedented, and a lot of 194 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:12,840 Speaker 1: people had to step up, and I was proud of 195 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: the way a round sort of stepped up individually. 196 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 2: Oh they really did. And even like in the command 197 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 2: center that we had set up at Regent Street, so 198 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: I had roster guys who were working basically twenty four 199 00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 2: to seven. God love them radio operators. None of them 200 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 2: wanted to be in there, and I rotated some of 201 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 2: them through so that they got a chance to actually 202 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 2: get out of there and experience what was going on. 203 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,400 Speaker 2: But I think I had a budget overtime of one 204 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 2: and a half mil. And after about six days in 205 00:10:41,280 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 2: I said to the roster guys, you know, it was 206 00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,440 Speaker 2: like eleven PM or something, and I thought, I wonder 207 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 2: how much I've signed. I said, look, mate, can you 208 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,440 Speaker 2: do a quick calculation for it? They said yeah, yeah, yeah, 209 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 2: they were working twenty four to seven, and they said 210 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,520 Speaker 2: we'll have it for you tomorrow morning. So I went 211 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:00,319 Speaker 2: in the next morning at six am or whatever, and 212 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 2: they said, you're only up to like seven fifty or 213 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 2: eight hundred whatever it was. 214 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 1: And I must admit, I've probably saved you a bit 215 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,000 Speaker 1: of money because I was having so much fun sometimes 216 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,080 Speaker 1: I didn't even put in the other plaform. So I 217 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: remember the cars. I remember sleeping in the car at 218 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: one stage, because you're at the whim of where this 219 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:20,760 Speaker 1: person wanted to go. And if that person felt like 220 00:11:20,800 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: I'm going to hang out all night, you're out all 221 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 1: night and there was nothing you could do about it, 222 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:26,840 Speaker 1: and you're back there the next morning. But yeah, it 223 00:11:26,880 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: was a fascinating experience. 224 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 2: And there were seventy one people that we looked after, 225 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 2: internationally protected people, Henry Kissinger, Chelsea Clinton, you know, a 226 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 2: prince from Saudi, like the breadth of people, kings, queens, whatever, 227 00:11:40,840 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 2: heads of state. It was just really unbelievable. And for 228 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 2: our people to actually look after those people and meet 229 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 2: those people, have those opportunities was really great. 230 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 1: It was fantastic. And you're meeting people that you've heard 231 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: about their reputation and you're meeting them, and most of 232 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: them they treat you quite well. It wasn't so that 233 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 1: you weren't to just get out of my way. I 234 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:06,079 Speaker 1: remember sitting in a restaurant having dinner with a princess 235 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:09,480 Speaker 1: from a particular country, and it was like she was 236 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: on a Friday night out. She just wanted to go 237 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,439 Speaker 1: out and party. Absolutely, but you've got to do it 238 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: and you've got to keep your wits about you and 239 00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:20,240 Speaker 1: make sure. But everyone that worked on it had just 240 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: fond memories of it that were such such an experience, 241 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: and there was a real positive vibe about the whole thing, 242 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: wasn't it. The weather was great. It just was great 243 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: to be part of. 244 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think if people were out and about 245 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:34,760 Speaker 2: it was to do with the Olympics. 246 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: You know. 247 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 2: I had one constable who I worked with a lot, 248 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:41,839 Speaker 2: and last year he came up to me and apologized 249 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 2: about the Olympics because he was working at the airport 250 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 2: and he knows who he is and he didn't want 251 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 2: to be working there. He wanted to be That was yeah. 252 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,520 Speaker 2: But at the airport, you facilitated all of them coming in, 253 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 2: so you got to meet everybody. And he said, oh, 254 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:58,680 Speaker 2: do you want to be working at the airport? I said, well, look, 255 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 2: I'll tell you what. How would you like to work 256 00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 2: in the car park at home Bush because I can 257 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 2: organize that. I'm six months pregnant, mate, I'm not in 258 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 2: the mood, so I like it or lump it. You 259 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 2: can be out there or anyway. So and he came 260 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:14,920 Speaker 2: up to me last year just before I retired. He said, 261 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 2: I'm really sorry. I said, sorry for what he said, 262 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 2: you know, being. 263 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,719 Speaker 1: I do understand it, like I was fortunate because I 264 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,319 Speaker 1: went out every day, didn't have a day in and 265 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: got to see front row seats watching all the sport, 266 00:13:30,880 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 1: and I just couldn't believe it and think this is 267 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: I'm glad that I joined the police. 268 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:37,840 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I don't know if you had one of the 269 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 2: cars that had the number plates special number plates though 270 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,840 Speaker 2: were Olie. They were all Olympic number plates. So my 271 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 2: police car that I had, you know, I come in 272 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:49,719 Speaker 2: the morning and that afternoon when I or that night 273 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:51,720 Speaker 2: when I was going home, the plates are be gone. 274 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 2: So I came in every day and there was a 275 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 2: constable and I said, look, the plates have been knocked off. 276 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 2: Can you report them stolen? Happened about seven times anyway, 277 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 2: On the last day I came in and I said, oh, 278 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 2: the plates have been stolen. He said, oh, look about that. 279 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:12,079 Speaker 2: Just want to let you know that, you know, I 280 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:17,800 Speaker 2: reported the plate, Stolin, I accidentally reported the car. Stolin said, 281 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 2: so I've been driving a stolen car? Is that? Is 282 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 2: that what you're telling me? And he said, well yeah, 283 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:26,080 Speaker 2: but he said, but who's going to pull you over? 284 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: Maybeck Rick might have pulled you over high risk of defender. 285 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:32,880 Speaker 2: Oh no, And we actually had one car missing. At 286 00:14:32,880 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 2: the end of it all, we had all the one 287 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty cars and like two weeks after the Ompic. 288 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 1: Carol and I deny that allegation. I bought the car back. 289 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 2: It was an AFP guy row you up, said mate, 290 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 2: where's the car? Oh you want the car? Yes, doesn't 291 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 2: actually belong to you. 292 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: Bring it. It's worth worth a try. 293 00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:53,200 Speaker 2: I know. I was about to report it Stolin. I said, 294 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 2: if we don't get it back to that because we 295 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,440 Speaker 2: couldn't figure out where it was, like one hundred and 296 00:14:56,480 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 2: fifty cars or whatever. Yeah, so he reluctantly. 297 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 1: I had so much fun. I signed up for the 298 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:07,680 Speaker 1: Para Olympics, but then homicide squad worked out I wasn't 299 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: wasn't there, and they run They pulled me away from that. 300 00:15:11,440 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 1: I didn't want to leave. I was enjoying myself. But 301 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: all the different nationalities they had different and this was 302 00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: the exciting thing about it. Depending on who you were 303 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: working for or looking after, there was different ways you 304 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 1: had to approach it, and the Bulgarians could not understand, 305 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: for the life of life of them, you're a policeman. 306 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:32,920 Speaker 1: Why we have to stop because you know we're doing 307 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: the bomb checks and all that. But can't you just 308 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: say you're a policeman and they let you through. They 309 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,320 Speaker 1: couldn't comprehend that. And I looked after some Saudi princes 310 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,600 Speaker 1: on a night. That was an interesting experie. Yeah, yeah, 311 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: you can imagine and everything you're imagining, Yeah, was going down. 312 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: But full credit to you, Like all jokes aside, like 313 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 1: for an operation that was major, did they give you 314 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: much preparation before then? Like I know it was a 315 00:15:59,200 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: long time in the place. 316 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, not for that particular role. I thought I would 317 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 2: be involved in investigations and intelligence for the Olympics, but 318 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 2: my commanders at the time said, no, you're going to 319 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 2: be running the You'll be the operations commander for dignitary Protection. 320 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 2: And I was very pregnant. And it's funny because at 321 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 2: that time Rick actually was successful in getting a deployment 322 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 2: to East Tmoor. Yeah, so he was leaving in two 323 00:16:27,440 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 2: months and I was command posted and I was talking 324 00:16:31,720 --> 00:16:35,479 Speaker 2: to the team about it. Gary Merriweather was there Mick Watkins, 325 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 2: and I said, I don't know what I'm going to 326 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 2: What am I to do with Rick's away when I 327 00:16:39,640 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: have the baby? You know, I was so stupid. I 328 00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 2: was such an idiot. I had no idea what happens 329 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:47,120 Speaker 2: when you have a baby. And Gary me Merriweather said 330 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 2: to me, you know what case you said, I'll go 331 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,120 Speaker 2: with you. I said, what he said, Well, my wife's 332 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,520 Speaker 2: had three kids, it's no big drama. I'll go with you. 333 00:16:54,600 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 2: I said, all due respect, you know, but seriously so. 334 00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: But nice of him, but the gesture was nice. But yeah, okay, well, 335 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: congratulations on that, because that was from what I saw 336 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 1: in my police career. It was one of the largest 337 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 1: operations I've seen police do, and I was proud of 338 00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:18,440 Speaker 1: the way it came off. Everyone had a good time. 339 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: We didn't lose anyone. I almost lost a police car. 340 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 2: If that's the worst that happens. Hey, we're doing. 341 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: Okay, okay, let's stop us reminiscing about the times at 342 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: the Sydney Olympics prosecuting police prosecuting. I just throw this 343 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 1: up as a conversation starter that I feel sorry for police, 344 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: current police that they don't get the court experience we 345 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: used to get when we first went in and a 346 00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:46,680 Speaker 1: week wouldn't go by when I was a young detective, 347 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: when I wasn't in the witness box being beat up, 348 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:52,200 Speaker 1: and it gives you the confidence. I never feel comfortable 349 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: when I'm about to give evidence. It's always a nervous 350 00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:58,440 Speaker 1: and you should feel nervous because the stakes are pretty high. 351 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,719 Speaker 1: But you got tall and you got to cut your 352 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:04,679 Speaker 1: teeth in the local court and all that. What's your 353 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: your take on the way police give evidence in the 354 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:10,560 Speaker 1: witness box? You see some very good plaice give evidence 355 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: and you see others that they're out of their depth. 356 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:15,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know what, I think, it's really interesting. 357 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 2: When I joined in nineteen eighty one, there was still 358 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 2: the situation where you where the probationary constable who locked 359 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,400 Speaker 2: up somebody for whatever it was, read the facts, would 360 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,239 Speaker 2: give the facts from the witness box. Okay, yeah, so 361 00:18:27,680 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 2: you would go and they'd say right this. It was 362 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 2: kind of like, you know, your first kind of blooding 363 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 2: is to go in and give the So you got 364 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 2: used to actually sitting in the witness box and just 365 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 2: even if you're reading the facts, it's just sitting in 366 00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 2: that environment where everybody's looking at you, you know, expecting something. 367 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,680 Speaker 2: And I think that that would be a really great 368 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 2: thing for just young police now to be able to 369 00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 2: just go and get exposure, to get exposure and all 370 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 2: that sort of stuff and just without any pressure, just 371 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 2: you know, because the young when they start, like I was, 372 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 2: you know, just nineteen and gosh, I'd never been a 373 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 2: court before in my life. 374 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 1: It was terrifying the first time. 375 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 2: Absolutely, not just the first time like most times talking. Yeah, 376 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,600 Speaker 2: it was terrifying. And I think if we did that, 377 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 2: you know, I know, look, it's not easy, and time 378 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 2: is poor and all that sort of stuff, But I 379 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 2: just think preparation. And you know, as a prosecutor, you'd 380 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 2: have people coming in at ten o'clock as you're standing 381 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 2: at the bar table giving you this statement and that's 382 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,479 Speaker 2: the first you've ever seen of it. You're calling your 383 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,919 Speaker 2: first witness and you haven't seen the brief, so that 384 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 2: sort of stuff. But look, I understand it is hard, 385 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 2: you know, the time poor and all the rest of it, 386 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 2: but you know, you've got to be prepared if you 387 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 2: want to be professional, do your homework and preparation. 388 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,959 Speaker 1: You've just said that the preparation was the key. If 389 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: you didn't prepare, And that's why I think being nervous 390 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: or petrified or whatever we want to call it before 391 00:19:58,320 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: you get in there, you've got to have that. You've 392 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: got to have that adrenaline going through, so you do 393 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:06,200 Speaker 1: the work beforehand. And on the very rare occasions where 394 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: I haven't been prepared, I've been shown up to be 395 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: lacking in the witness box. And preparing is understanding the brief, 396 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 1: getting it in your head so under pressure you can 397 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 1: answer the questions. 398 00:20:16,600 --> 00:20:20,280 Speaker 2: And yeah, well the other thing is too that in 399 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 2: the old days we actually had to remember our evidence, 400 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 2: so especially at district court or Supreme court, and you 401 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 2: get six pages into your evidence and then the prosecutor, 402 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 2: I'll just stop you there, and you're like, don't stop 403 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 2: me because and then there's that right now, you know, 404 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 2: from whatever, and just like, okay, what a minute, I've 405 00:20:38,640 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 2: got to go right back to the beginning. 406 00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: Now. It seems it seems ludicrous, doesn't it, But that 407 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: was And I can still remember statements from thirty years 408 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,639 Speaker 1: ago that it seemed to be every Sunday was spent 409 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,000 Speaker 1: just going over it. And I'd collocated, I said, he 410 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 1: said and colocated with highlighted pens. Learn it verbatim verbatim, 411 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: and you get in the witness box and you might have, 412 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,720 Speaker 1: as you said, six pages even more of conversation and 413 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:08,960 Speaker 1: details that you had to hit word for word. Otherwise 414 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: the defense was going to exploit, exploit it absolutely, And 415 00:21:12,720 --> 00:21:14,520 Speaker 1: didn't you feel so good after you finished it? 416 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,159 Speaker 2: Absolutely? Like cross examination is nothing after that. But I 417 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 2: think it was a bit of a shock for the 418 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 2: jury for police to get in and give this dire 419 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 2: tribe of evidence and they'd be thinking, how did they remember? 420 00:21:28,760 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 2: You know, you could see the jury thinking wow, like. 421 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:38,119 Speaker 1: It was crazy. It was theater. You were there performing 422 00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: and you sit there with confidence, and you rattle off 423 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: six pages verb batim of conversation and then defense will 424 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: take you back when they said you saw it. Did 425 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:51,680 Speaker 1: they actually say you saw it? Or they thought they 426 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 1: saw it, and they'd try to confuse you. But I 427 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,160 Speaker 1: suppose because you learnt it that way, you could then 428 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,280 Speaker 1: argue it back because when they started to allow us 429 00:22:00,359 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 1: to read, and that was a big thing. If you 430 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 1: got the court and the defense of agreed to let 431 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 1: you read your statement. 432 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 2: Oh thank goodness. 433 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:09,959 Speaker 1: But then you got a little bit more relaxed about it, 434 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: and you didn't learn the statement as much as you did, 435 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: so that sort of I had to wind myself back 436 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: and just make sure you get it into your head 437 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:25,800 Speaker 1: all the information that you needed. Did you enjoy prosecuting. 438 00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, I loved prosecuting. It was very different to being 439 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 2: in plane close because every day was something different. So 440 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 2: you didn't have matters that went over you know, you 441 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 2: didn't have investigations that went for days, months, weeks, years. 442 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,600 Speaker 2: Everything was fresh every single day, well most of the 443 00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 2: time unless you had a part her. But I really 444 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 2: loved prosecuting. It was great. I worked with great people, 445 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,160 Speaker 2: Like I said, Party Parcel, Dave Parcel and Steve McGrath. 446 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, they were around for a long time. Col Kennedy, 447 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:56,000 Speaker 1: cole he was. 448 00:22:56,000 --> 00:23:00,120 Speaker 2: Cold Kennedy, Yeah, absolutely, and they were just champions and 449 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 2: just and some of them have gone on to be magistrates. 450 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 2: Dom McClellan we did law together, you know. Yeah, it 451 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 2: was great. It was a great learning ground. And the 452 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 2: only thing about prosecutor is I love to argue. They 453 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 2: love to argue. Oh why don't you arguing in the office, 454 00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 2: because I can't be bothered like argue about whether sun 455 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 2: comes up in the east of the West. 456 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: I don't care Les Crawford. Did you ever work with 457 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: Les Crawford. 458 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 2: No, I didn't, but I've heard about it. 459 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: Okay. Le's used to terrorize me in my early days 460 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:34,400 Speaker 1: as a young detective. I'd walk into the prosecutor's office 461 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: and they're always busy, and that's I honestly don't know 462 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: how you get your head around all those different briefs, 463 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,480 Speaker 1: Like there's a queue outside the office, we're at court 464 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 1: that I'd always bring my brief in. Lesard look at it, 465 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 1: and on occasions he'd throw it on the floor and go, yeah, yeah, 466 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: I'll do my best to like it was a good brief. 467 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:54,840 Speaker 1: Find out it was a good brief. But that was 468 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: that was just Les's way. But I love liked having 469 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:00,360 Speaker 1: hair prosecuting because he knew how to argue when he's 470 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 1: good on his feet and the Yeah, so many skills 471 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: that a good prosecutor has to have. 472 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and just learning from the best, watching them and 473 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 2: just you know, they were so confident and all that 474 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 2: sort of stuff. And yeah, I remember Steve McGraw was 475 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 2: calling the list once at Blacktown, which was you know, 476 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 2: like you know Eighten inches high and there was a 477 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 2: plea matter and I couldn't find the brief in all 478 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,520 Speaker 2: the papers, like and so at monty two, I said, oh, Steve, 479 00:24:26,560 --> 00:24:28,840 Speaker 2: this person wants to plead and like, I can't find 480 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,440 Speaker 2: the papers. And he went through all the papers in 481 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 2: the whole office couldn't find it. And then he came 482 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 2: over and he went through everything that I had and 483 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 2: it was in there. And you know what, he didn't 484 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,720 Speaker 2: get up me. He didn't call me for I just 485 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 2: felt so embarrassed that he'd been through everything. But he 486 00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 2: was such a nice guy and he just you know, 487 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:54,719 Speaker 2: he said, don't worry about it. It's all good, you know, 488 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,360 Speaker 2: like just really good people. 489 00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 1: The people like that make a difference, don't ye, Yeah, 490 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:06,399 Speaker 1: act of kindness? Did you when you were prosecuting? Did 491 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,159 Speaker 1: you ever find yourself? Because sometimes I sit there in 492 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: court and you know, I'll be critical of the prosecutors 493 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 1: or the defense, so why don't they go down this pathway? 494 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 1: But when you're standing on your feet and sometimes you just, yeah, 495 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: your mind goes blank. Yes, did you ever have any 496 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: moments like that? Whek? 497 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 2: Unfortunately? Where am I I had one? Once? The magistrate 498 00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 2: a black town trying to think of his name. He 499 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 2: was such a lovely man. And I was cross examining 500 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,719 Speaker 2: and I was just going around in circles. Honestly, it 501 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 2: was just crap. And he said, misso hair, I thought, 502 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,959 Speaker 2: here it comes. So is this cross examination going anywhere? 503 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 2: I said, I don't think so. He said, then sit down, 504 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 2: and I said, And he said to me afterwards, he said, 505 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 2: I can't believe you just sat down. I said, Well, 506 00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:55,640 Speaker 2: it wasn't going anywhere. 507 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:57,320 Speaker 1: Sometimes the best. 508 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 2: He said, you know, it's just you know, I did 509 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 2: my best, and obviously that wasn't real good. 510 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,880 Speaker 1: So again, you put yourself in pressure positions like prosecuting, 511 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: pressure negotias. Did it take a toll on you? Or 512 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: is it I see the laugh of it comes through. 513 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,680 Speaker 1: Did you just try to look at the bright side 514 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 1: of things? Yeah. 515 00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 2: Look, I'll tell you what. There were a lot of 516 00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 2: pressure things, but I think it was rewarding as well. 517 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,240 Speaker 2: At the end of it, like you do, oh you know, 518 00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 2: I'll be like, oh my god, I'm going to do 519 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 2: this matter d And then you know, ask people who 520 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 2: knew better than me what to do and all that 521 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 2: sort of stuff. And I think just having that camaraderie 522 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 2: with you know, with your mates and all that sort 523 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 2: of stuff and throwing it around and everything. Yeah. Look, 524 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 2: definitely I was anxiety ridden lots of times. But I 525 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 2: think you just get on with it. I don't know, yeah, 526 00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:49,800 Speaker 2: I don't know. 527 00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: Well, I think it keeps you stimulated if you're challenging 528 00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: yourself and exactly the roles that you've done was a 529 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 1: challenge for you each time. But yeah, it's a sort 530 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 1: of career path that you've taken. You're always putting yourself 531 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 1: out there and pressure pressure points. 532 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I've enjoyed that. You know, it has been stressful, 533 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 2: but I have enjoyed it too, you know, when it's 534 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 2: when it's all worked out. 535 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:15,719 Speaker 1: Well, of course, well lucky you were in the gachet 536 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,680 Speaker 1: before that, like prosecuting, or you might have met Rick 537 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: and you might have been with a solicitor. 538 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,240 Speaker 2: Instead of that's exactly what a good thought. 539 00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. 540 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 2: Well, but you know what's really funny too, is when 541 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:32,919 Speaker 2: I started prosecuting, it's a totally different cross examining and interviewing, 542 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,440 Speaker 2: completely opposite, really it was. It was a really different. 543 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 1: Mindset, how so exposed, Well, when you're. 544 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 2: You're asking open questions as an investigator, whereas as a prosecutor, 545 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,760 Speaker 2: you're asking more closed questions. 546 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 1: Okay, you're putting. 547 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 2: Something to somebody, you did that. You'd never do that 548 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,280 Speaker 2: as an investigator, Yeah, you'd let them tell the story, 549 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 2: whereas as a prosecutor, you're when you're cross examining, you're 550 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 2: zero yeah. Zero. So that was really interesting. Actually, I 551 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 2: remember thinking that at the time, why do we have 552 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 2: open questions for investigator? And you know, obviously because of 553 00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:08,920 Speaker 2: the law. 554 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: But your academic studies they would have really come into 555 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: help in that. I think, like criminology and law, you 556 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: really would have been looking at things deeply. 557 00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. And I remember doing criminology and I did 558 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,880 Speaker 2: criminal law, and the first thing they said, right, we're 559 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,360 Speaker 2: going to learn defenses defenses to it. And I thought, well, 560 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 2: what about the proofs, Like, as police, that's the first 561 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 2: thing that's dumped into you. What are the proofs of 562 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 2: last week? What are the proofs of murder? What? I said, 563 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 2: but what about the proofs? And they weren't interested at all. 564 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 2: That was a big shock to me, and I thought, wow, 565 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 2: you know what this is. It's kind of like we've 566 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 2: only got half the story if we don't look at 567 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: the defenses as much as they did in that in 568 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,880 Speaker 2: that course, we're really missing out. It was really Yeah, 569 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 2: there were certain like AhR moments and I thought, wow, 570 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 2: I really need to know that much better than what 571 00:28:58,120 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 2: I did. 572 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, before you're looking at it from two different sides, then, 573 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: aren't you. So you have to get a better perspective 574 00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: on it. Counter Terrorism that's been a passion of yours. 575 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 1: The work that you do in that space tells how 576 00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 1: you got into that, the interests, and what you find 577 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,840 Speaker 1: challenging and rewarding about working in the counter terrorism film. 578 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I always say that I started working in 579 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 2: counter terrorism long before it became sexy, long before nine 580 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:28,160 Speaker 2: to eleven when everybody suddenly worked in counter terrorism. So 581 00:29:28,280 --> 00:29:30,479 Speaker 2: I went to a special branch in the eighties. I 582 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 2: really wanted to go there. And it's funny because Nick 583 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,280 Speaker 2: Calders at the time is a great made of mind 584 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,280 Speaker 2: at the time and still is worked together when he 585 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 2: was in uniform. 586 00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:44,520 Speaker 1: Actually, and I can't imagine that it comes it was 587 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: so cute shout out to you, Nick, out we're saying 588 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: good things and that. 589 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he I think Nick was really interested in 590 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 2: special branch. But at that time his career went in 591 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 2: different directions, and I went and saw them and I said, 592 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 2: this is what I'm interested in and all that sort 593 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 2: of stuff, and they accepted me, which was really good, 594 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 2: I think because I was a detective that stood me 595 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 2: in good stead and there weren't many women there, and 596 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 2: I think they realized they needed some women. So I 597 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:18,040 Speaker 2: did a lot of CANi terrorism intelligence and investigations with 598 00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 2: John Garvey and people like that, Bruce Moore, all sorts 599 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 2: of really great people, and the Dignitary Protection as well, 600 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 2: and it was full on during the Bison tenery and 601 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 2: I worked with ASO and people like that as well 602 00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,800 Speaker 2: at that time. And then I left and then after 603 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 2: the Royal Commissioner, as I said, came back and initially 604 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 2: ran CT investigations and intelligence when the Special Branch was closed, 605 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 2: and so we had to resurrect a lot of relationships. 606 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: It was early days, and we've had Dave gaul On 607 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: here and talking about it. It was sort of after 608 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 1: ninety eleven. Of course, the focus was, yeah, we need 609 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:02,760 Speaker 1: to get this up and running properly and efficiently, but 610 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 1: it was an area of policing and a different challenge 611 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: to policing that the average police officer doesn't see. 612 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, nine to eleven changed everything in as much 613 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 2: as before nine to eleven there was terrorism here. Most 614 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 2: people didn't realize it, to be honest, but it was 615 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 2: about foreign conflicts and where you know, foreign entity. Countries 616 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 2: had a symbol here or a consulate or an embassy 617 00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 2: or something like that. In Australia, the attack was against 618 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 2: another country in Australia, wasn't against Australia. After nine eleven, 619 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 2: it was against Australia. We became, i think for the 620 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 2: first time the target of terrorism, specifically because we were 621 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:51,080 Speaker 2: Australian and really Bali was obviously the. 622 00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: First big Bali bomb. 623 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 2: There were two Bali's, one in two thousand and two, 624 00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 2: one in two thousand and five, and you know, really 625 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 2: realized that we're a target here, we as Australians, the 626 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 2: Australian government, which had really never happened before. So that 627 00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:08,800 Speaker 2: was the major turning point. Yeah, and between two thousand 628 00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 2: and twenty fourteen there were no terrorist attacks in Australia, 629 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 2: mostly because of the legislation. So they brought in what 630 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 2: was called Acts in preparation of a Terrorist Act and 631 00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:23,040 Speaker 2: that was really for conspiracy. It was like a conspiracy 632 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:29,720 Speaker 2: and which worked really well. But then in because they 633 00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:34,400 Speaker 2: were big attacks that were planned and so there was 634 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 2: plenty of time to disrupt. After twenty fourteen, they became 635 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 2: much more simple. Do what you can where you are, 636 00:32:43,480 --> 00:32:44,840 Speaker 2: with what you got. You don't have to kill one 637 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 2: hundred kill one sort of thing for the terrorists. So 638 00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 2: that's what changed. And in twenty fourteen we had our 639 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 2: terroist attack in which two police officers, a Victorian and 640 00:32:53,480 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 2: an AFP officer were stabbed in Melbourne and they shot 641 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,200 Speaker 2: dead the offender, the terrorist, and that was a big shock, 642 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 2: I think because it was the first time on our 643 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 2: soil that a terrorist attack occurred and against police officers 644 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 2: where the target which was pretty scary as well. 645 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 1: Changed the landscape, doesn't it. 646 00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, it really did. It changed the landscape. It made 647 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 2: it very real. Yeah, it did make it very real. 648 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 2: And then in quick succession there were a lot more 649 00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 2: where you had a loan actor or a very small 650 00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 2: group acting together. 651 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 1: And you have to change your mindset from a police 652 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,680 Speaker 1: officer's point of view, because quite often the way in 653 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: major crime we're reactive. Something happens and then we come 654 00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:46,480 Speaker 1: in and investigate it. But yeah, the major goal of 655 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 1: doing your job there if there's no one hears anything, yeah, 656 00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 1: you're preventing the crimes. 657 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:55,520 Speaker 2: Absolutely. It's got to be very proactive and that's a challenge. 658 00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 2: As you said, it's a totally different way of looking 659 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 2: at things. You're not waiting for something to happen, and so, yeah, 660 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:03,920 Speaker 2: being proactive is you've really got to work with your 661 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 2: agency partners. 662 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,320 Speaker 1: And there's a pressure that comes with that, like being proactive, 663 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 1: because it's not a matter of well, it's happened, we're 664 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: going to do our best to find out why it happened, 665 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 1: but you're preventing it to happen again. Did you find 666 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: find that pressure in the work that you did in 667 00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,200 Speaker 1: the counter terrorism space. 668 00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah, it was. I would say a lot of 669 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 2: people in counter terrorism every night go to bed thinking 670 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 2: hopefully it's not tonight. You know what I mean, what 671 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 2: have we missed? 672 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: Fingers crossed? 673 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,920 Speaker 2: What have we missed? What have we missed? Because you know, 674 00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:37,840 Speaker 2: a successful terrorist attack is a failure in investigation and 675 00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 2: intelligence really so, and then you're working backwards and you 676 00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:44,719 Speaker 2: don't want to be there. So it's always how can 677 00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:49,520 Speaker 2: we pick up the nuances? And you know, different pieces 678 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:51,920 Speaker 2: of evidence or information. The other thing is you're dealing 679 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 2: a lot with intelligence as opposed to evidence. So you 680 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 2: get information as an investigator and you've got to translate 681 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 2: that into evidence, and it's not. 682 00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: Easy break that down for people that when I understand 683 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: what you're saying, but how would you describe it? 684 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,080 Speaker 2: O case, So we might get information from an overseas 685 00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 2: agency or another country that says, look, three people arrived 686 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:20,480 Speaker 2: in your country. We know that they're planning to do 687 00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 2: a terrorist attack. First name of one of them is 688 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 2: nickers Nackers and they were last seen in you know, 689 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 2: pick a suburb in Sydney. Okay, right, what does all 690 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:35,520 Speaker 2: that mean? Who are they? First of all, let's trying 691 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,960 Speaker 2: to identify them, what's their motivation? And when we have 692 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 2: to prosecute, can we disclose where that information has come from? 693 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 2: Did well you need a search warrant? Well? Where did 694 00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 2: you get the information? So the legislation had to keep 695 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 2: up with the environment, so that had to change as well. 696 00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 2: So how do you take something that's just information? They 697 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 2: might Oh, we've got information that there's a bomb on 698 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 2: a plane and it's taken and the flight number is 699 00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:06,640 Speaker 2: X y Z. They're leaving No DA DA DA in 700 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:08,719 Speaker 2: half an hour from Sydney Airport. What are you going 701 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:14,800 Speaker 2: to do? How do you then translate that piece of information? Firstly, 702 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 2: how do you stop it from happening? Then secondly how 703 00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:19,800 Speaker 2: do you actually how can you use that information as evidence? 704 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 2: Because there's evidentiary rules and regulations obviously, and a lot 705 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 2: of the time the intelligence we get and intelligence agencies 706 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,080 Speaker 2: don't understand evidence. To them intelligence, well you've got the information, 707 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 2: do something. Yeah, well it's called the law. They actually can't. 708 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 2: We actually can't. And sometimes listening device in legislation is 709 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 2: different for some agencies. It's a lower threshold to what 710 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,280 Speaker 2: we have. So if they obtain it through a particular means, 711 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:56,879 Speaker 2: it's not necessarily good enough, good enough evidentiary wise for us. 712 00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,600 Speaker 2: So they're real challenges and it's a matter of educating 713 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,920 Speaker 2: part agency partners about how we need something collected. But 714 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 2: then that's got to comply with how they actually their 715 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 2: their collection rules and yeah, so it really is a 716 00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 2: lot of cooperation and yeah, it's not. 717 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 1: Easy, it's complex. But the again and I talk about 718 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,800 Speaker 1: talk about the pressure that comes comes with that, because 719 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: if you're the person that flicks that piece of intel 720 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 1: away and then something major happens when there's when there 721 00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,640 Speaker 1: is an investigation, is how the hell did this happen? 722 00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:33,000 Speaker 2: Yeah? 723 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,480 Speaker 1: Ah, Caroline saw it and just said, oh, I don't 724 00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:36,800 Speaker 1: worry about that and put them away. 725 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,759 Speaker 2: Yeah. So, yeah, absolutely there is. You've got to be 726 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 2: so vigilant. And look, there is a lot of accountability 727 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,759 Speaker 2: in process and a lot of consideration and all that 728 00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 2: sort of stuff. And you know what, gds are the 729 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 2: eyes and ears of the world. And whenever we'd go 730 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 2: out to speak to the GDS, I would always say 731 00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,279 Speaker 2: to them, you know what, you know your community, you 732 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 2: know when something's wrong, you know who the players are. 733 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 2: We're relying on you to be the eyes and ears 734 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 2: in your community and to tell us what's going on, 735 00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:06,480 Speaker 2: because you know, you're the experts. 736 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,359 Speaker 1: And that's good advice. And you would have seen it. 737 00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 1: I've seen it where specialist squads might get a swagger 738 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 1: or an arrogance about them and don't rely on the 739 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,280 Speaker 1: grassroots level, which is the police out there on the streets. 740 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, you go to a domestic and you see stuff 741 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 2: on a computer, or you see something stored in the backyard, 742 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:28,799 Speaker 2: what's going on? Don't you just think about why you're 743 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 2: there for that moment, what else is happening. 744 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,880 Speaker 1: And pass that information on and not just for the police, 745 00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,480 Speaker 1: like it's the community now we're we're all got a 746 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:38,919 Speaker 1: part in it, yeah, haven't we. 747 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 2: Well. Norm Hazard, who was the first Assistant Commissioner for counterterrorism, 748 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,319 Speaker 2: he said, counter terrorism is the response of everyone, not 749 00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:50,600 Speaker 2: just the cops, not just you know, intelligence agencies, not 750 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:52,200 Speaker 2: just the government, it's all of us. 751 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,040 Speaker 1: You worked as his staff officer, that would have been 752 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:58,120 Speaker 1: an interesting and good gig. 753 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,319 Speaker 2: Oh. Absolutely, And was just one of those people that 754 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 2: he was very dynamic and very smart and he was 755 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 2: so respected by the government by Michael Costa when he 756 00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 2: was the Police Minister, and you know, they'd come and 757 00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:17,879 Speaker 2: ask Norm questions and they said, well if Norm says 758 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,120 Speaker 2: it's okay, it must be okay, you know. Like and 759 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 2: he got a standing ovation in Parliament when he retired 760 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,600 Speaker 2: because everybody respected him so much. And honestly, I remember 761 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,239 Speaker 2: one time, you know, he realized a capability gap that 762 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,560 Speaker 2: you know, he came in the next morning he said, 763 00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:37,040 Speaker 2: what are we doing about this? He said, you know, 764 00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 2: I just was thinking about it last night and we 765 00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 2: need to cover off on this otherwise we're in a 766 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 2: world of hurt, right, we need to do this. There's 767 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 2: there's and it was just one of those people who 768 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 2: was strategic in his thinking and he knew where it 769 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 2: could come back to bite us if we didn't do 770 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 2: something about it, and then he had the capacity to 771 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,719 Speaker 2: make it happen, So, which are really rare qualities. 772 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:02,520 Speaker 1: It's rare also that that, yeah, invariably and police people 773 00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 1: take sides or there's little clicks and all that, But 774 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: I've never heard anyone speak badly of Norm Norm Hazard. 775 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 2: No me either, And yeah, he really was a chap. 776 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,719 Speaker 2: He was very blunt. I do remember one time Nick 777 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,839 Speaker 2: Caldice rang from Iraq. When Nick was in Iraq and 778 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,440 Speaker 2: I was in Norm's office and Norm said, oh, how 779 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 2: you going? He said, Look, every time I watched the 780 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,360 Speaker 2: news on TV and there's a I RAQ, I'm expecting 781 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:29,480 Speaker 2: to see you lying under a bit of rubble and 782 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,439 Speaker 2: Nick's like, yeah, yeah, thanks, good one. 783 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:32,680 Speaker 1: Norm. 784 00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,200 Speaker 2: So he was very down to earth. He was very 785 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 2: down to earth and just yeah, so much respect for 786 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,480 Speaker 2: and I think policing was his vocation. You know, some 787 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,360 Speaker 2: people policing is their vocation and for him. 788 00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,839 Speaker 1: Yeah, and look I think that's an important thing. And 789 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,920 Speaker 1: it saddens me where I see people use and clearly 790 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: it was your vocation. It was my vocation too, and 791 00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:00,279 Speaker 1: it was something that I was going to to do 792 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,279 Speaker 1: it untill the day I stopped working. Circumstances change. We'll 793 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 1: talk about that, but anyway, but yeah, you joined it 794 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,360 Speaker 1: and you grew and I don't know about you, but 795 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:13,720 Speaker 1: every single day I came to work, I was learning something. 796 00:41:13,760 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 1: I was upskilling and it didn't matter how long I've 797 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,480 Speaker 1: been investigating homicides or how long I've been doing this. 798 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,440 Speaker 1: I was learning something and adding it to the Okay, 799 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,120 Speaker 1: the experience. I'd like to see that with policing now. 800 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,120 Speaker 1: It really saddens me that not just in New South 801 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 1: Wales but across the country, and I think even overseas 802 00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:36,000 Speaker 1: police forces are struggling to fill people in those positions. 803 00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: People don't want to be police anymore. And I quite 804 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: often question, what is it about? Is it because we 805 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: want all the quick fix and all that, and policing 806 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,720 Speaker 1: can be a hard career. What's your thoughts on current 807 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:49,360 Speaker 1: policing and why are we struggling? 808 00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really difficult to know, but it is international 809 00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,360 Speaker 2: it's world. Why that it's difficult. I think after the 810 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,640 Speaker 2: Black Lives Matter in the US, there was a lot 811 00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,480 Speaker 2: of really and COVID. But I think all of those 812 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:06,360 Speaker 2: things apart from what's happening in policing, a lot of disruption, unrest, 813 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:10,279 Speaker 2: civil unrest which was pretty ugly in the US, and 814 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:16,399 Speaker 2: with COVID, everything was just so disrupted. And I went 815 00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 2: to a march out for Chief Inspector Jane Hansford. I 816 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 2: don't know. I think she was in the job for 817 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,200 Speaker 2: like forty one years or something, and the Association said 818 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,759 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty when she joined, twenty six hundred people 819 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,839 Speaker 2: applied to join the police, and seven hundred and fifty 820 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,680 Speaker 2: were accepted. And we seem to have gone through these 821 00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,799 Speaker 2: ebbs and flows and all the rest of it. But 822 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:42,959 Speaker 2: I think as people are better educated, perhaps that they 823 00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 2: don't want to join the police and be doing some 824 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:47,360 Speaker 2: of the stuff that you have to do that's not 825 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,760 Speaker 2: very pleasant. I don't know. I don't know the answer 826 00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 2: to that. I wish I did, but I don't know. 827 00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I like I had a person like yoursel Phone 828 00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,520 Speaker 1: or other people that have had outstanding careers and the police, 829 00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:05,000 Speaker 1: and I hope people listening to this just understand that, yeah, okay, 830 00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 1: there might be some tough things, but it can be 831 00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:10,320 Speaker 1: so rewarding. Look, your face lights up every time you 832 00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: relay a story. If not, you're sitting there and go, 833 00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:13,759 Speaker 1: I didn't like my job. 834 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:18,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And it is rewarding, and I think 835 00:43:18,920 --> 00:43:21,839 Speaker 2: there's great power in talking to young people about it. 836 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:26,879 Speaker 2: My daughter her at her school, I did canteen once 837 00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:29,680 Speaker 2: a month. I'd go to work in the morning. I'd 838 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:33,080 Speaker 2: take a few hours of time. One so you can 839 00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,359 Speaker 2: you manage time? Yeah, so you can manage that. Yeah, 840 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 2: you have a family and go down with the moms 841 00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,799 Speaker 2: and they'd say, you know, at one o'clock I go 842 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:43,359 Speaker 2: back to work. They say, you go back to work. 843 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:44,600 Speaker 2: And I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've got to go 844 00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:45,280 Speaker 2: back to work. 845 00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,120 Speaker 1: It keeps you grounded to that type of thing. 846 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, And one of the moms, her daughter wanted to 847 00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 2: do criminology. She said, would you mind having a talk 848 00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,560 Speaker 2: to her? Anyway, she came and saw me at work 849 00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:58,160 Speaker 2: and spent the day with me at work and all 850 00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,600 Speaker 2: the rest of it. And she did forensic science degree 851 00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:05,840 Speaker 2: which would fast track her into FSG and at the 852 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:11,000 Speaker 2: end of it, she joined the Cops, and she loved 853 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 2: it so much she didn't want to do forensics anymore. 854 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 2: She just loved it in GDS. And I think that's 855 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:19,600 Speaker 2: the thing is, you know, when you're young and you're 856 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:22,200 Speaker 2: excited to be going to work and every day is different, 857 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:24,520 Speaker 2: there's so much there. And I said, you know, the 858 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:27,240 Speaker 2: world's at your feet. You can do whatever you want 859 00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:30,040 Speaker 2: this And I think that's the thing. There's so much opportunity. 860 00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,840 Speaker 2: And for me, I did so many different things. Not 861 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:37,440 Speaker 2: everybody's like that, but I was just endlessly curious about 862 00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:39,319 Speaker 2: everything and I thought, oh wow, I really want to 863 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 2: know that. And look, when I first joined the cops, 864 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,080 Speaker 2: there was no way I thought I could ever be 865 00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,520 Speaker 2: a prosecutor. I thought there is no way, Like I 866 00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,759 Speaker 2: remember reading those facts in the witness box and thinking, 867 00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:51,840 Speaker 2: oh my god, thank god, I'm not the prosecutor, you know, 868 00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:55,000 Speaker 2: And then later on I had the opportunity. And all 869 00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,359 Speaker 2: of that training is free, you know what I mean, 870 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:02,000 Speaker 2: Like you're being paid, you're being trained at the same time, 871 00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,759 Speaker 2: and you come out with skills that you don't get 872 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,480 Speaker 2: anywhere else. And I think it's fabulous career. 873 00:45:07,920 --> 00:45:12,319 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, and I hope people I hope people join. 874 00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,360 Speaker 1: I think there's so much reward that I've got, rewards 875 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:19,560 Speaker 1: in ways that I just couldn't imagine when I walked 876 00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,640 Speaker 1: out of the academy and it's been life changing. But 877 00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:24,640 Speaker 1: I think life changing. I think I've become a better 878 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,200 Speaker 1: person because of what I've learned in the police. But 879 00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,839 Speaker 1: some of the rewards that you get from policing, if 880 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: you want a job that's challenging, exciting and rewarding, like 881 00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,759 Speaker 1: it ticks a box for policing, it saddens me at 882 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:37,680 Speaker 1: the moment with the conflict at the top in the 883 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,800 Speaker 1: New South Wales Police, I don't like with our commission 884 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:43,560 Speaker 1: of the criticism that she's getting. You care to make 885 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:44,839 Speaker 1: any comments on that? 886 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:47,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's terrible. You know, we have to 887 00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:49,960 Speaker 2: support our police and that's from the top to the 888 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,560 Speaker 2: bottom and the bottom to the top, all of them. 889 00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:55,600 Speaker 2: And saddens me when I hear and I hate to 890 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,080 Speaker 2: say this, but a lot of retired police, sorry guys, 891 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,440 Speaker 2: if you're out there, how about your support the troops 892 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,359 Speaker 2: on the ground And a lot of them do, but 893 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 2: also a lot of them, you know, make disparaging remarks 894 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:09,520 Speaker 2: and Karen Webb has got a tough job. I would 895 00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,200 Speaker 2: not want to be the commissioner for all the team 896 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:15,160 Speaker 2: in China. I think it's a really tough gig. And 897 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,200 Speaker 2: I think she's really copying a lot of unfair criticism, 898 00:46:18,560 --> 00:46:24,799 Speaker 2: and you know, just stop, just stop and let her 899 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,600 Speaker 2: do a job and steer the ship, keep it steady. 900 00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:32,120 Speaker 2: You know, she needs support well, and doesn't help the 901 00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:36,400 Speaker 2: cops ultimately to be sticking the knife in all the time. 902 00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:38,520 Speaker 1: No, I don't think it's a good I don't think 903 00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:40,719 Speaker 1: it's a good look for the public. It doesn't give 904 00:46:40,760 --> 00:46:43,840 Speaker 1: the public confidence. And yeah, it would be such a 905 00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,719 Speaker 1: better look if people were supporting and not undermining. And 906 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,719 Speaker 1: I'm looking from the outside, so I've got no internal 907 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:52,440 Speaker 1: skin in the game or knowledge in the game, but 908 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,560 Speaker 1: I'm just thinking clearly there's people with an agenda to 909 00:46:56,800 --> 00:46:59,560 Speaker 1: cause mischief and make her job hard enough. I'd like 910 00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,080 Speaker 1: to see them more focusing on doing what police should 911 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,160 Speaker 1: be doing and making sure we're living in a safe society. 912 00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:05,719 Speaker 1: That would be. 913 00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:08,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, And I think the thing is too. The 914 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:12,600 Speaker 2: challenges I had forty years ago are very different in 915 00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:14,920 Speaker 2: some respects to the challenges they've got today. They all 916 00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,439 Speaker 2: wear body worn video. You know, terrorists want to kill them. 917 00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:21,040 Speaker 2: We never had any of that sort of stuff. And 918 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,360 Speaker 2: they come on to shift and they've got twenty or 919 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:28,319 Speaker 2: thirty jobs outstanding, Like it's you know, it's tough. We 920 00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:29,319 Speaker 2: need to support them. 921 00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,440 Speaker 1: And when they're under resource, that just adds to the pressure, 922 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,719 Speaker 1: doesn't it. If you haven't got the troops, so you 923 00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:36,680 Speaker 1: haven't got the staff, and that adds to the pressure. 924 00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:40,320 Speaker 1: So yeah, shout out to the hard working, hardworking police 925 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:46,080 Speaker 1: and yeah, it's a tough job but rewarding. Yeah, since 926 00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:50,160 Speaker 1: your retirement, it's only recently retired, but you're channeling your 927 00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:55,719 Speaker 1: energy because Rick has neglected you and he's off playing policeman. 928 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:56,200 Speaker 2: That's it. 929 00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:57,839 Speaker 1: How dare he do that? 930 00:47:57,920 --> 00:47:58,279 Speaker 2: I know? 931 00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,520 Speaker 1: Or is that you're asking him the work that you're 932 00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,160 Speaker 1: doing with voter Do you want to explain that? Yeah, 933 00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,680 Speaker 1: explain where it came from and what that's about, what 934 00:48:07,719 --> 00:48:09,800 Speaker 1: you hope to achieve with it, because I think it's important. 935 00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,399 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. Well, it's victims of terrorism Australia. When 936 00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:16,359 Speaker 2: I was in the police, probably about I don't know, 937 00:48:16,760 --> 00:48:20,800 Speaker 2: ten or twelve years ago, I've always been fascinated with terrorism, 938 00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,839 Speaker 2: but also I did a lot of research on the 939 00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,920 Speaker 2: history of terrorism in Australia and particularly about the Hilton bombing, 940 00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,840 Speaker 2: and everybody who's ever done any work with the Hilton 941 00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:32,360 Speaker 2: always wanted to know who did it, who did it? 942 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:34,439 Speaker 2: Who did it? Well, we know who did it, Evan 943 00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:35,960 Speaker 2: Pedderick went to jail and all the rest of it. 944 00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:38,439 Speaker 2: But there's so much controversy around it, and I thought, 945 00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:41,319 Speaker 2: who cares who did it? What about the people who 946 00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:44,759 Speaker 2: were killed or injured? What about the victims? Nobody ever 947 00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:49,200 Speaker 2: talks about them, nobody remembers them. And there are two 948 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:53,760 Speaker 2: City of Sydney council workers, Bill Favell and Alec Carter 949 00:48:53,880 --> 00:48:56,520 Speaker 2: who were killed, and also in New South Wales police 950 00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:00,839 Speaker 2: officer Paul Burmistru And I thought, I wonder who Paul 951 00:49:00,880 --> 00:49:04,040 Speaker 2: Burmistry was, Like, what did he look like? I googled 952 00:49:04,440 --> 00:49:07,319 Speaker 2: and I couldn't even find a photo of him or 953 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,359 Speaker 2: know anything about him. And I finally tracked his brother 954 00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,160 Speaker 2: down and went to visit him and I said, I'm 955 00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:16,359 Speaker 2: Caroline o Heir from New South Wales Police. You know 956 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,279 Speaker 2: your brother Paul was killed blah blah. He said, well, 957 00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,399 Speaker 2: what are you doing here now? He died thirty five 958 00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:24,600 Speaker 2: years ago or whatever. What what do you want. I 959 00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:30,359 Speaker 2: was like, oh, okay, all right, okay, Well, I said, well, look, 960 00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:33,040 Speaker 2: I think it's important that we remember him. And I said, 961 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,160 Speaker 2: especially a young police need to know who he was 962 00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,000 Speaker 2: and what he was about and all the rest of 963 00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,480 Speaker 2: it and what I honor him. And I said, and 964 00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:42,560 Speaker 2: I just want to know what he looks like and 965 00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,120 Speaker 2: who he was as a person. Anyway, we became really 966 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,719 Speaker 2: great mates. I became great mates with his brother woll. 967 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:52,560 Speaker 2: We organized memorials for the Hilton, and we got his 968 00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:57,680 Speaker 2: medals that he was owed issued and presented to Woll. 969 00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:03,520 Speaker 2: And it just got on the role of actually tracking 970 00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,600 Speaker 2: down other victims. And one of the other guys who 971 00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:09,799 Speaker 2: was there, Rod Wither, he's the last surviving New South 972 00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:12,239 Speaker 2: I was police officer who was there. He came to 973 00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:15,480 Speaker 2: our voter launch. So anyway, to cut a long story short, 974 00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 2: because my husband said I can talk underwater with a 975 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:23,239 Speaker 2: mouthful of marbles. 976 00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:25,040 Speaker 1: I think that's unfair, just because he's saying, I want 977 00:50:25,080 --> 00:50:29,080 Speaker 1: to storm the stronghold with these men in black overalls, 978 00:50:29,080 --> 00:50:31,759 Speaker 1: and there you are just talking, talking, talking, talking, and 979 00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:33,520 Speaker 1: then you guys get home and then you just. 980 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:36,520 Speaker 2: Talking talking, talking, Yes, and he just says, just stop, 981 00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:41,799 Speaker 2: stop now, I feel for you. Yeah, that's it. So 982 00:50:41,960 --> 00:50:45,040 Speaker 2: I thought, when I retire, I want to actually form 983 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:48,240 Speaker 2: a group that supports victims of terrorism. So with victims 984 00:50:48,239 --> 00:50:51,200 Speaker 2: of terrorism, there's the there's circles of impact because it 985 00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:54,520 Speaker 2: obviously impacts a lot of people. In the first circle 986 00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:56,959 Speaker 2: of impact to those who were actually there during a 987 00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:01,000 Speaker 2: terrorist incident, and I know that you've interviewed I hope before, 988 00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:03,799 Speaker 2: so she would be in the first circle. Then in 989 00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:08,720 Speaker 2: the next circle is the bereaved and those who've lost somebody, family, friends, 990 00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:11,800 Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. The third circle of impact 991 00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:16,800 Speaker 2: and they go out exponentially is are the first responders, witnesses, police, 992 00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:22,719 Speaker 2: medical staff. And then the fourth impact is on the community. 993 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:26,200 Speaker 2: So terrorism is unique because it does affect everybody in 994 00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,120 Speaker 2: the community, and we're all actually victims of terrorism in 995 00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,960 Speaker 2: some way because we're all affected by it. Frightens us, 996 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:34,960 Speaker 2: that's what it's meant to do. And I saw that 997 00:51:35,000 --> 00:51:37,560 Speaker 2: there was a real gap in support for a lot 998 00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:41,839 Speaker 2: of people, and so I went to the Police Association. 999 00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:45,160 Speaker 2: Actually I went to some really good friends, said please 1000 00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:47,880 Speaker 2: can you help, And there's a working party of ten people, 1001 00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:50,960 Speaker 2: some academics, former police such as Dave Eloyees and some 1002 00:51:51,040 --> 00:51:53,520 Speaker 2: victims all that sort of stuff. We got together and 1003 00:51:54,520 --> 00:52:00,640 Speaker 2: a neighbor of mine who's a lawyer, Poor thing, and 1004 00:52:00,920 --> 00:52:04,400 Speaker 2: we set up Victims of Terrorism Australia and the idea 1005 00:52:04,680 --> 00:52:06,880 Speaker 2: is that what we want to do is provide a 1006 00:52:06,880 --> 00:52:10,880 Speaker 2: couple of things. Firstly, peer support because getting together with 1007 00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,399 Speaker 2: somebody else who's been through a similar experience is very 1008 00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:19,239 Speaker 2: power empowering because victims of terrorism have been disempowered and 1009 00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:21,880 Speaker 2: to empower them, we want them to have a voice, 1010 00:52:22,040 --> 00:52:24,120 Speaker 2: so to be able to do that in a safe space. 1011 00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:27,800 Speaker 2: We also want to be able to educate the public 1012 00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,879 Speaker 2: about what terrorism is and how it affects people. So 1013 00:52:32,080 --> 00:52:35,319 Speaker 2: taking our victims out to meet the community where they 1014 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,239 Speaker 2: can and they're willing to do that because people get 1015 00:52:38,280 --> 00:52:43,160 Speaker 2: to see the human side of what terrorism does. We 1016 00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:46,480 Speaker 2: also want to do some research about best practice for 1017 00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:50,759 Speaker 2: helping victims from around the world. And we want to 1018 00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:55,960 Speaker 2: do memorialization because that's very important, especially for the breathed, 1019 00:52:56,560 --> 00:52:59,960 Speaker 2: that their family members and the loved ones are not forgotten, 1020 00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:02,960 Speaker 2: and it's it's important for the communities. But like I 1021 00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,799 Speaker 2: was talking to somebody about it today, like with Anzac Day, 1022 00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:09,719 Speaker 2: the community. Some people don't have any connection to, you know, 1023 00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:11,799 Speaker 2: any of the wars, but they come to pay their 1024 00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:16,480 Speaker 2: respects for those people and it's it's a community thing 1025 00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:19,879 Speaker 2: and it's really important for the community to remember and 1026 00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:24,359 Speaker 2: to yeah, memorialize. So that's basically what we're about. It's 1027 00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:27,439 Speaker 2: very slow going. If you want to contact us, it's 1028 00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:32,479 Speaker 2: just contact at voter dot org dot au. And we've 1029 00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:34,920 Speaker 2: just got our website up and running thanks to Dave Gala, 1030 00:53:34,960 --> 00:53:38,080 Speaker 2: who's a genius, and that is voter v o t 1031 00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:40,120 Speaker 2: a dot org dot au. 1032 00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,759 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, well, good luck with that because the way 1033 00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,279 Speaker 1: that you've explained that there is that area that's been 1034 00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:49,640 Speaker 1: missed and people are often often forgotten. We talk about 1035 00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:52,239 Speaker 1: the attack, but the ramifications that flow on from it, 1036 00:53:52,320 --> 00:53:55,160 Speaker 1: and that's so. Yeah, it's good to see you busy. 1037 00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:56,759 Speaker 1: You're going to do another degree or something. 1038 00:53:57,280 --> 00:53:59,040 Speaker 2: Rick said, no more study. 1039 00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,000 Speaker 1: I believe it. I believe it when when I see it. 1040 00:54:04,080 --> 00:54:05,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, you said, not forget it. I said, I was 1041 00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:09,120 Speaker 2: thinking about doing a master's. He said, nut, can't. 1042 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:12,000 Speaker 1: Help yourself, cannot I actually do? 1043 00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:14,440 Speaker 2: You know? I really don't think I have it in 1044 00:54:14,520 --> 00:54:18,080 Speaker 2: me anymore. I'm quite happy never go to university again. 1045 00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,680 Speaker 1: How was it the day you left the police did? 1046 00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:24,440 Speaker 1: What was the feelings that you had when you walked 1047 00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:25,879 Speaker 1: out and you're no longer a cop? 1048 00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:28,239 Speaker 2: Well, it was quite funny because I had a march 1049 00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:31,080 Speaker 2: out from the SPC. So that morning we went in 1050 00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:34,040 Speaker 2: and I was all in my uniform for the last time. 1051 00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:35,680 Speaker 2: And Rick said, Okay, we're going to go down and 1052 00:54:35,719 --> 00:54:37,520 Speaker 2: do a shoot. Do you last. 1053 00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:42,440 Speaker 1: That's a good idea, that's very very romantic. 1054 00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:42,600 Speaker 2: You. 1055 00:54:43,080 --> 00:54:45,160 Speaker 1: I can see what you're seeing him. Let's go to 1056 00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:46,080 Speaker 1: the firing. 1057 00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:49,040 Speaker 2: Range, she said, and with a five shot. 1058 00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:51,600 Speaker 1: School the old school. 1059 00:54:52,120 --> 00:54:54,760 Speaker 2: And Rick had a shoot too. How excited. 1060 00:54:58,320 --> 00:54:59,799 Speaker 1: I can just say that love in the air. 1061 00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:03,839 Speaker 2: And I actually did much better than I thought I would. 1062 00:55:03,920 --> 00:55:06,440 Speaker 2: I said, can you keep that? You know, the s 1063 00:55:06,920 --> 00:55:09,759 Speaker 2: frame it. I said, just laminate it or something. I 1064 00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:13,040 Speaker 2: want to keep that. So did my shoot and then 1065 00:55:13,160 --> 00:55:15,440 Speaker 2: had the march out and everything, and at the end 1066 00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:17,160 Speaker 2: of it it was really nice. I had the bagpipes 1067 00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:18,880 Speaker 2: and then I got in an F one hundred and 1068 00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:21,360 Speaker 2: we drove around the block with the sirens going and 1069 00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:22,719 Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. It was a lot of 1070 00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:26,279 Speaker 2: fun and it was nice, and I was happy to go. 1071 00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:28,600 Speaker 2: It was time for me to go. I didn't hate 1072 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,319 Speaker 2: going to work. I still enjoyed going to work, but 1073 00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:31,960 Speaker 2: it was time. 1074 00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:34,200 Speaker 1: It's a good time if you can leave it. Leave 1075 00:55:34,200 --> 00:55:38,839 Speaker 1: at that point, no regrets, enjoy, enjoyed every moment. Full 1076 00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:42,080 Speaker 1: credit to you. And I say this like, I know 1077 00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:45,280 Speaker 1: how hard you worked, and I know you weren't hiding. 1078 00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:47,480 Speaker 1: You were out there doing the work. And it was 1079 00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:49,879 Speaker 1: a long career. So you should be very proud, proud 1080 00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:53,520 Speaker 1: of you. Thank you. Yeah, do you think your life 1081 00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:56,320 Speaker 1: ahead of you? Now? You're going to find the enjoyment 1082 00:55:56,520 --> 00:56:01,120 Speaker 1: or the rewards like you're doing your voters. Yeah. 1083 00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,120 Speaker 2: Look, it's really funny because when you're about to reply 1084 00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:07,920 Speaker 2: retypele say what's your plan? What's your plan? You think, 1085 00:56:07,960 --> 00:56:09,320 Speaker 2: oh my god, I've got to have a plan. I 1086 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:11,480 Speaker 2: don't know what my plan is. What's my plan? And 1087 00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:14,160 Speaker 2: I said, oh, I'm going to set up a victims 1088 00:56:14,160 --> 00:56:16,960 Speaker 2: of Terrorism's book grip. So after I left the next hour, 1089 00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:21,360 Speaker 2: I thought, now I've actually got to do it. I 1090 00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:23,600 Speaker 2: talked about it for long enough. I've got to do something. 1091 00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:25,200 Speaker 1: A big game. Yeah exactly. 1092 00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, Look I really enjoy that, but I think, Yeah, 1093 00:56:28,840 --> 00:56:33,080 Speaker 2: when you've been really, really busy and involved in things, 1094 00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:36,239 Speaker 2: it's good to be involved in something that really has 1095 00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:41,040 Speaker 2: a great purpose. It's also nice not to be responsible 1096 00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:42,920 Speaker 2: for everything that happens around you. 1097 00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:47,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. When I left, the thing I know this most 1098 00:56:47,520 --> 00:56:50,400 Speaker 1: was the phone. I wasn't didn't have to be a 1099 00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:52,560 Speaker 1: slave to the phone before. The phone was with me 1100 00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:54,759 Speaker 1: the whole time, and you'd be called at any time, 1101 00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:57,120 Speaker 1: and your life could be turned upside down, and the 1102 00:56:57,160 --> 00:57:00,840 Speaker 1: areas that you worked, you had the same thing for 1103 00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,719 Speaker 1: the first six months. Why isn't anyone finning? Like why 1104 00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:05,640 Speaker 1: isn't the phone ringing at two o'clock in the morning. 1105 00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:09,040 Speaker 1: But now I look back and I realized the sacrifices 1106 00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:11,279 Speaker 1: that you made when you're on call, and all those 1107 00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:13,520 Speaker 1: times that you didn't see it when you're in the 1108 00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:16,080 Speaker 1: actual work. But it's nice to just step back and 1109 00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:18,720 Speaker 1: you can know you can go to bed and not 1110 00:57:18,720 --> 00:57:20,680 Speaker 1: worry about when waken up in the middle of the 1111 00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:23,040 Speaker 1: night and end up at crime scene or a siege 1112 00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:25,240 Speaker 1: with your boyfriends slash husband. 1113 00:57:25,840 --> 00:57:26,360 Speaker 2: Exactly. 1114 00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:30,520 Speaker 1: Sorry, I got I just think it's funny they should 1115 00:57:30,520 --> 00:57:33,080 Speaker 1: make a comedy out of those two I do have. 1116 00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:34,800 Speaker 1: I want you sorry. 1117 00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:37,280 Speaker 2: I was just going to say that. One night when 1118 00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:39,919 Speaker 2: I was on we used to live up at Rick's 1119 00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:42,840 Speaker 2: place at Mount kring Guy and for some unknown reason, 1120 00:57:42,960 --> 00:57:46,320 Speaker 2: at like two am, this is like nearly thirty years ago, 1121 00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:50,439 Speaker 2: shots fired. And I said to Rick, oh my god, 1122 00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:52,800 Speaker 2: it sounds like a gunshot. And he said it is 1123 00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:54,680 Speaker 2: a gunshot. I went, oh my god, it must really 1124 00:57:54,720 --> 00:57:57,880 Speaker 2: be a gunshot. To Frixate that was what he's talking about. 1125 00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:00,440 Speaker 2: And I was on call. I said, I'm god, I'm 1126 00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:01,880 Speaker 2: going to get my gun out. And he said, give 1127 00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:03,840 Speaker 2: me your gun. I said, I'm not giving you my gun. 1128 00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:06,120 Speaker 2: He say get your gut. He said, give me a 1129 00:58:06,280 --> 00:58:10,400 Speaker 2: gone because he didn't hurt me either. He's a better shot. 1130 00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:14,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there's probably no criticism of what they've been. 1131 00:58:14,040 --> 00:58:16,080 Speaker 2: An arm toned up at our next door neighbor's house. 1132 00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:19,280 Speaker 2: Oh really, Oh my god, in this sleepy little suburb 1133 00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:21,760 Speaker 2: when nothing happens and it's right next door. 1134 00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:23,240 Speaker 1: That would have been great. You could have set up 1135 00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:26,240 Speaker 1: the prim Rick's here, the tactical team than the gay 1136 00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:27,000 Speaker 1: Shader was the. 1137 00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:31,000 Speaker 2: Most bizarrely, local cops came around. They said, I said, 1138 00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:32,800 Speaker 2: we're in the cops. Rix you to bah bah blah 1139 00:58:32,880 --> 00:58:34,080 Speaker 2: and all this sort of stuff. And they said, is 1140 00:58:34,080 --> 00:58:36,000 Speaker 2: anybody trying to kill you? I said, not that I 1141 00:58:36,040 --> 00:58:36,320 Speaker 2: know of. 1142 00:58:36,480 --> 00:58:40,800 Speaker 1: But now I cautioned you at the start of the 1143 00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:45,800 Speaker 1: yeah interview, so answer this carefully. Yes, please, please be honest. 1144 00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,240 Speaker 1: You we and Rick working at any time? Did Rick 1145 00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:51,520 Speaker 1: say to you when he's there with the tactical team, 1146 00:58:51,520 --> 00:58:53,640 Speaker 1: you're there with the gay shaders? Can we wrap this 1147 00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:55,440 Speaker 1: up quickly because I'm hungry. I want to gave for 1148 00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:56,760 Speaker 1: dinner or plans. 1149 00:58:57,720 --> 00:58:59,200 Speaker 2: No, not Rick. 1150 00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:00,280 Speaker 1: Rick. 1151 00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:03,560 Speaker 2: I might have said that, but not Rick. Rick is 1152 00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:09,440 Speaker 2: one hundred percent focused and very diligent and like really 1153 00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:13,160 Speaker 2: he really is in tactical well, whatever he does, he's 1154 00:59:13,160 --> 00:59:13,959 Speaker 2: a perfectionist. 1155 00:59:14,240 --> 00:59:17,479 Speaker 1: He would drives me nuts to cut the seed short 1156 00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:18,520 Speaker 1: just to get his haircut. 1157 00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:21,600 Speaker 2: No, yeah, or for me to make my appointment. 1158 00:59:21,800 --> 00:59:24,480 Speaker 1: Well, I just if you know, we learned things about 1159 00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:26,320 Speaker 1: guests when they come on. The one thing I've learned 1160 00:59:26,360 --> 00:59:28,480 Speaker 1: about you that you managed to wrap up a siege 1161 00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:30,479 Speaker 1: so you could get you your hair appointment. I didn't 1162 00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:32,120 Speaker 1: think i'd hear that on my catch killers. 1163 00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:38,920 Speaker 2: Yeah. We're happy with the cut absolutely, and the color fantastic. 1164 00:59:39,040 --> 00:59:42,040 Speaker 1: Fantastic. Let's end it on that note. Thank you so 1165 00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:44,040 Speaker 1: much for coming in. I've had so much fun, and 1166 00:59:44,480 --> 00:59:45,960 Speaker 1: again full credit for your career. 1167 00:59:46,040 --> 00:59:47,720 Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It's been 1168 00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:48,160 Speaker 2: a pleasure. 1169 00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:53,439 Speaker 1: Cheers, cheers. I reckon. You get a sense of why 1170 00:59:53,720 --> 00:59:56,560 Speaker 1: Carolina Hair was so liked in the New South Wales Polace. 1171 00:59:56,640 --> 00:59:59,480 Speaker 1: She's a fun person and she's had an amazing career. 1172 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:01,880 Speaker 1: I've got to say that was a fun chat. She 1173 01:00:01,920 --> 01:00:05,080 Speaker 1: always brings a smile to my face and some interesting stories. 1174 01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:07,760 Speaker 1: And I love the fact the relationship between her and 1175 01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,200 Speaker 1: the husband, who was a technical police officer and she 1176 01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:12,960 Speaker 1: was a negotiator. That just makes me laugh thinking about it.