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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean Almam.

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Speaker 1: Australia's Energy transition is the biggest engineering project this country

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Speaker 1: has ever seen. It's estimated to take decades and cost

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Speaker 1: about three hundred and twenty billion dollars. And while we've

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Speaker 1: made good early progress, there's a tremendous amount of work

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Speaker 1: to be done, especially if we're to meet our missions targets.

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Speaker 1: But a recent KPMG studies suggests only one in four

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Speaker 1: Australians have actually heard of the energy transition. It puts

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Speaker 1: the energy industry and the government in a challenging position,

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Speaker 1: investing billions into a transition to greener energy that a

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Speaker 1: lot of people don't actually understand, while meeting the core

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Speaker 1: needs of consumers keeping the lights on and delivering predictability

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Speaker 1: in energy prices and bills. Energy Australia is one of

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Speaker 1: the nation's biggest energy retailers, with one point six million customers.

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Speaker 1: Mark Kleett is the Managing Director of Energy Australia. Mark,

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Fear and Greed. Pleasure to be You spoke

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Speaker 1: where the energy transition in a speech earlier this year.

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Speaker 1: In it you said the easy part of the transition,

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Speaker 1: adding wind and solar and keeping the network running is over.

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Speaker 1: So the easy part's over. What is the big challenge ahead?

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Speaker 1: Then what's the next step that's harder than what we've

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Speaker 1: been through?

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Speaker 2: Sure, and as you say, the energy transition is the

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Speaker 2: biggest engineering project the country has ever done. And the

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Speaker 2: first step, the reason I say it was easy is

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Speaker 2: that we had an existing system that work to produce electricity.

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Speaker 2: There was more electricity than we needed, so lots of

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Speaker 2: redundancy in the system and it was not something that

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Speaker 2: customers or anyone generally had to worry about. And the

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Speaker 2: first part of the transition was actually just using less coal.

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Speaker 2: And the way we did that as a country was

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Speaker 2: to add rooftop solar and wind and sold it to

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Speaker 2: the grid, and then during the times when those were generating,

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Speaker 2: then we'd just turned down coal and everything just went

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Speaker 2: on in the background. The step ahead is different because

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Speaker 2: we can no longer just do that in order to

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Speaker 2: reduce emissions and keep the grid working. The first first

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Speaker 2: point of bake around the why it's different is that

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Speaker 2: we've reached the point where coal actually needs to be retired.

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Speaker 2: It's not a case of turned down the coal and

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Speaker 2: let something else generate for a while. We're actually retiring

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Speaker 2: qualified power stations. And when we retire qualified power stations,

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Speaker 2: they were always on and they would turn up and

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Speaker 2: down in response to all the different weather conditions and

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Speaker 2: customer patterns and things like that. And so now, in

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Speaker 2: addition to adding wind and solar, which are available when

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Speaker 2: the weather provides them, Australia needs backup generation in the

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Speaker 2: form of batteries and gas vide generation and hydro and

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Speaker 2: adding those to the system is just more things to

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Speaker 2: do at the same time as adding the renewables, and

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Speaker 2: beyond that, the other reason it's hard, The other major

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Speaker 2: reason is that the easy bits to connect all that

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Speaker 2: wind and solar to the grid have been done. So

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Speaker 2: now to add more wind and solar, we actually need

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Speaker 2: to build more grid as a country. And so then

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Speaker 2: you look at that and say, okay, that the path

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Speaker 2: ahead means building more grid to connect more wind and

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Speaker 2: solar and building more backup generation, and ultimately that's why

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Speaker 2: it's harder.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Just something I want to point out. Going backwards

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Speaker 1: isn't an option. You said that in your speech, and

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Speaker 1: it's something that really hit home when I read it.

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Speaker 1: The idea that coal and the grid based on coal

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Speaker 1: is a twentieth century product. It's end of life, so

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Speaker 1: it's not like we can just extend it forever, is

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Speaker 1: that right?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? Sean. Casein point, we own the your Lawn Colfi POWERstation,

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Speaker 2: which is closing on the thirtieth of June twenty twenty eight.

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Speaker 2: Your Lawn is a fantastic site. It's been generating power

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Speaker 2: for one hundred years as of June fifteen this year.

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Speaker 2: Thousands of Victorians have supplied millions of Victorians through their

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Speaker 2: work at your Lawn over many, many, many decades. But

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Speaker 2: that power station is fifty years old, and when you

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Speaker 2: go and walk around the power station, it's clear that

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Speaker 2: the end is there's no option just to keep going.

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Speaker 2: So really the job ahead is to build the new

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Speaker 2: system in time for the old one to close elegantly

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Speaker 2: and in a way where most people don't even notice, because,

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Speaker 2: as you say, Sean, only one in four people, according

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Speaker 2: to the KPMG study, actually understand that this massive engineering

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Speaker 2: transition is actually going on in the energy sector in Australia.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so it's going to cost about three hundred and

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Speaker 1: twenty billion dollars in today's dollars. Who knows what that

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Speaker 1: means going forward? Bigger than orcus I think you've set

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Speaker 1: at some point or other, how do you attract the

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Speaker 1: necessary investments? Another point you've made is that really we

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Speaker 1: have relied on government to attract the investment. But at

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Speaker 1: the moment, the returns that you're making on renewable projects

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Speaker 1: are around five to seven percent. Private credit is probably

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Speaker 1: earning you more. If I'm an investor, I'm thinking where

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Speaker 1: do I get the best return? How do we solve

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Speaker 1: that piece of the puzzle.

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Speaker 2: Look, it's a major question, Sean, and I'd start with

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Speaker 2: what customers actually want. And that's why not start there

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Speaker 2: is that's where the energy transition starts, and looking at

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Speaker 2: what customers want. They absolutely want the electricity to be

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Speaker 2: there when they need it, but they also want it

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Speaker 2: to be predictable. And predictable is not a feature of

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Speaker 2: the current energy system. If you just look at residential

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Speaker 2: bills and how they've changed in recent years plus twenty

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Speaker 2: percent two years ago roughly in terms of price changes,

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Speaker 2: and then flat. That sort of price profile puts customers

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Speaker 2: under a lot of pressure when they're budgeting because they

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Speaker 2: just don't know what's going to happen. So I'd argue

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Speaker 2: that the place to start is to say, well, we

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Speaker 2: want predictable outcomes for bills, and predictable means something akin

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Speaker 2: to what it used to be back in the days

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Speaker 2: when the system was built, which was broadly bills would

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Speaker 2: track inflation to get to that sort of level. Then,

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Speaker 2: instead of continuing with the energy market that's current form,

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Speaker 2: the place I'd start with is look at all the

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Speaker 2: investments that need to happen and consider how the market

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Speaker 2: frameworks can change in order to deliver that level of predictability. So,

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Speaker 2: for example, saw the federal government has the Capacity Investment Scheme,

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Speaker 2: which is one of those government schemes to drive new

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Speaker 2: energy investments. One of the ways that that can provide

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Speaker 2: predictability is for retailers to be buying the energy and

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Speaker 2: the services that come out of those new projects and

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Speaker 2: then bundling it into a regulatory regime which actually thinks

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Speaker 2: about how the prices will evolve over the next decade,

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Speaker 2: not just over the next year, and does so in

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Speaker 2: a way where there's stability on the retail price, which

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Speaker 2: means stability on the returns for investors at the same time,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's the path by which we can

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Speaker 2: attract that funding because we all know that infrastructure investors

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Speaker 2: people who can see predictable returns, they have massive, massive

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Speaker 2: amounts of money to invest and that's a big opportunity

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Speaker 2: I see for the sector.

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Speaker 1: Stay with me, Mark, we'll be back in a minute.

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Speaker 1: My guess this morning is Managing Director of Any Australia,

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Speaker 1: Mark Collette. Is there some way we can rather than

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Speaker 1: having government picking winners, which little policies a little bit

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Speaker 1: like that at the moment, it's kind of almost having

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Speaker 1: the government as a backstop, So we're letting the private

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Speaker 1: sector invest and the returns are somewhat guaranteed by government,

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Speaker 1: and that way you can somehow give life to the

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Speaker 1: green bond market which suddenly which is nascent at the moment.

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Speaker 1: I'm just trying to think of creative ways to actually

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Speaker 1: get the super funds in to be spending the three

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Speaker 1: hundred billion dollars without actually the government picking winners.

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Speaker 2: I'm with you there, Sean. The power of the energy

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Speaker 2: markets when they were first launched, because the energy markets

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Speaker 2: were government created markets, the real power of them was

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Speaker 2: that the government didn't have to use its balance sheet

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Speaker 2: to invest because it put in place market signals which

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Speaker 2: led people like us to invest in the gas ye generation,

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Speaker 2: wind and solar and all those things. So the way

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Speaker 2: the industry is thinking about that at the moment, Sean,

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Speaker 2: is that the government is launching a market review and

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Speaker 2: I think you could say, well, the industry would like

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Speaker 2: that to be happening really quickly, and the job is

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Speaker 2: to work out what market frameworks could change so that

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Speaker 2: people like us can underwrite those projects with things like

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Speaker 2: green bonds and different forms of equity and debt capital

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Speaker 2: because the market structures are in place that give confidence

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Speaker 2: to all those investors that they'll get a return. I

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Speaker 2: think that path is even better than the government having

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Speaker 2: to underwrite everything because it actually activates private capital without

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Speaker 2: needing the government backstop.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about gas. You've got the Tellawarra B

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Speaker 1: gas turbine. What role does gas fire generation play in

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Speaker 1: the energy mix going forward.

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Speaker 2: Twenty twenty four? Show the exactly the role the gas

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Speaker 2: is going to play, And imagine winter a few months ago.

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Speaker 2: It was very cold across the eastern seaboard, there was

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Speaker 2: no wind and during those periods that's when gas stepped

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Speaker 2: into To show what it does, and that's what it

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Speaker 2: does on those days. It turns on to make the

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Speaker 2: system work during the energy doldrums. That doesn't happen all

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Speaker 2: the time by definition, it's only happening maybe less than

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Speaker 2: five percent of the year. But that essential service, that

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Speaker 2: essential insurance that's there to back up the system and

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Speaker 2: make everything work. That's the role of gas. That's the

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Speaker 2: ongoing role of gas.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so guess will be around for quite a while.

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Speaker 1: What about the national electricity market and the grid itself.

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Speaker 1: I think you said ten thousand kilometers of new transmission grid?

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Speaker 1: Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely? Emo. The market operator does an integrated system plan

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Speaker 2: where it sort of does a projection of how the

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Speaker 2: world could turn out according to their least cost modeling,

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Speaker 2: and they're the ones who are saying something like ten

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Speaker 2: thousand kilometers of new grid to connect up all that

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Speaker 2: wind and solar.

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Speaker 1: Can we do it?

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Speaker 2: Like all big engineering projects, they are possible, but they're

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Speaker 2: really really hard, and in order to do it involves

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Speaker 2: starting smart and somewhere like Queensland has been very smart

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Speaker 2: in the way it's just looked at its grid and thought, okay,

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Speaker 2: what are the cheapest ways to enhance the grid near

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Speaker 2: renewable energy zones, and they're starting by going for the

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Speaker 2: low hanging fruit. Makes a lot of sense there. It

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Speaker 2: will be a role for the high hanging fruit as well,

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Speaker 2: but certainly getting motion through the low hanging fruit is

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Speaker 2: a good way to start on that problem.

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Speaker 1: Okay, your words here. The basic problem to solve is

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Speaker 1: to develop a zero carbon form of energy that can

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Speaker 1: provide weeks worth of electricity on short notice with effectively

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Speaker 1: no limitation on volume. How far away are we from that?

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Speaker 1: Because what we're talking about is a transition. We need

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Speaker 1: to get to the point where it's zero carbon, it's

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Speaker 1: on demand, we're not worried about shortages. We can get

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Speaker 1: it to places. How far away are we from that?

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Speaker 2: Look, id to start with what we do have, and

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Speaker 2: what we do have is we have wind, we have solar,

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Speaker 2: we have GASFA generation batteries, pump hydroate. We've got a

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Speaker 2: lot of the pieces and they can take us. They

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Speaker 2: can make the system work so they can deliver that

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Speaker 2: reliability on demand electricity and they can take us down

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Speaker 2: to ninety ninety five percent plus reduction in emissions, which

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Speaker 2: is massive. So that last piece, the bit that I

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Speaker 2: talk about, we still need. It's not clear exactly what

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Speaker 2: the best answer will be. Maybe it's sodium batteries, maybe

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Speaker 2: it's green hydrogen. To me, it still looks like it's

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Speaker 2: at least five to ten years away. But that's okay

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Speaker 2: as long as there are development projects coming along in

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Speaker 2: that timeframe. If we can do all the things we

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Speaker 2: can do now through those existing technologies and have enough

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Speaker 2: lines in the fire globally because there's a global challenge

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Speaker 2: on those emerging technologies, as long as one or two

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Speaker 2: pop out in the next ten years, we should be okay.

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Speaker 1: Mark, is it energizing being part of the solution to

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Speaker 1: I think was Kevin Rudd? Wasn't it saying that kind

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Speaker 1: of the great I can't quite remember the words he used,

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Speaker 1: but the great challenge of this generation is what you're

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Speaker 1: working on. It must be somewhat energizing doing that.

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Speaker 2: Part of the pun Absolutely, it's energy. And sometimes I

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Speaker 2: think of myself and we joke around that I'm the

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Speaker 2: Chief Energy Officer pun fully intended on that one, Sean,

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Speaker 2: And that's why people join Energy Australia. They join Energy

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Speaker 2: Australia because we make it different. Energy is so fundamental

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Speaker 2: to people's lives and people in Energy Australia are working

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Speaker 2: together to bring this new system to life for the

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Speaker 2: benefit of their friends and family, and we're all absolutely

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Speaker 2: delighted when we make big steps forward like a tallawara

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Speaker 2: bee or a worrying battery, or purchasing the output of

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Speaker 2: a new wind farm and bringing it to life. These

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Speaker 2: are all very big things that give us a lot

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Speaker 2: a lot of sense of satisfaction because we're doing things

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Speaker 2: that matter.

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Speaker 1: Fantastic, Mark, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed.

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Speaker 2: Pleasure to be here, Sean.

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Speaker 1: That was Mark Kollett, Managing Director of Energy Australia. This

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Speaker 1: is a Fear and Greed Daily Interview. Join us every

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Speaker 1: morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed daily

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Speaker 1: business news for people who make their own decisions. I'm

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Speaker 1: Sean Elmer. Enjoy your Dame,