Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average persons never exposed
Speaker 1: to I spent thirty four years as a cop. For
Speaker 1: twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's
Speaker 1: what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.
Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking
Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The
Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from
Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,
Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the
Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one
Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join
Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Today
Speaker 1: I spoke to Nick Cawvios. Nick is one of the
Speaker 1: country's most respected law enforcement officers who's a retired New
Speaker 1: South Wales Police Deputy commissioner who's had an incredible international career,
Speaker 1: having worked in homicide, gangs, counter terrorism, negotiators and undercover.
Speaker 1: He's also worked for the UN, which saw him investigating
Speaker 1: the assassination of a former Lebanese prime minister, investigating the
Speaker 1: use of chemical weapons in Syria, rebuilding the Iraq Police Force,
Speaker 1: and most recently chaired the Royal Commission into Defense and
Speaker 1: Veteran Suicide. Today we found out who Nick is as
Speaker 1: a person, talking about the highs and lowers of his
Speaker 1: career and what makes him tick. You can also read
Speaker 1: more about Nick and an exclusive extract from his book
Speaker 1: Behind the Badge in the Saturday and Sunday Telegraph this weekend.
Speaker 1: I always enjoy talking to Nick. He's been a good mate.
Speaker 1: This is our conversation. Last time I had you on
Speaker 1: the podcast, everyone kept talking about how good your voice is.
Speaker 1: So stuff it up a little bit with you taking
Speaker 1: him a job. Anyway, Nick, you speak Arabic, You're born
Speaker 1: in Egypt, and you've got a certain look and swagger
Speaker 1: about you. See why you're used in undercover work. You've
Speaker 1: made reference to some undercover stuff in your book. Tell
Speaker 1: us about your career and undercover.
Speaker 2: I think I really got my start initially, at least
Speaker 2: simply because of my ethnic background and language abilities.
Speaker 1: And you did have that big, big mustache too.
Speaker 2: I did it was it was a beautiful thing. But
Speaker 2: I understand my stuches are coming back to. By the way,
Speaker 2: just say you so prepare yourself. But now I just
Speaker 2: I felt that it was something that was certainly exciting
Speaker 2: for a young detective. But more than that, I think
Speaker 2: you could actually do a lot of good, you know,
Speaker 2: getting drugs off the street or weapons off the street
Speaker 2: and catching really bad people that you might struggle to
Speaker 2: catch any other way. So I was happy, to very
Speaker 2: happy to be to be to be involved in it.
Speaker 2: And as I got more and more into it, I
Speaker 2: think I got better at it obviously, as you do,
Speaker 2: and the sort of targets I was going for you
Speaker 2: rows quite a few levels.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so you think it was important to get that
Speaker 1: expert pearance at the lower level of crime.
Speaker 2: Fortunately I started with a fairly big one, but after.
Speaker 1: That threw you in the deepen.
Speaker 2: It was Yeah, you have to understand in the eighties
Speaker 2: there wasn't that much of a structure in terms of training, accreditation,
Speaker 2: and the deployment practices were a bit at hoc. But
Speaker 2: as we went along, and I say in the book
Speaker 2: that one of my aims, I had some bad experiences
Speaker 2: with people taking contracts on me and so on, and
Speaker 2: I didn't feel I had a lot of support from workmates.
Speaker 2: I did, but not from the organization, and I wanted
Speaker 2: to contribute towards fixing that, and I did that. I've
Speaker 2: got a scholarship and whatever seas how to look at
Speaker 2: how others do things and brought back a bunch of
Speaker 2: ideas and that was my sort of foot in the
Speaker 2: door to recommend some fairly significant changes in terms of
Speaker 2: welfare reassimilation and so on.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, without giving away the methodology of the way
Speaker 1: that the people go undercover. I remember those days and
Speaker 1: it was pretty rough and ready wasn't Oh that's good,
Speaker 1: you've infiltrated the game, but we hadn't come up with
Speaker 1: an extraction plan.
Speaker 2: Nah. Yeah, I've been I hope I've been careful. I
Speaker 2: don't think there was any need for me to go
Speaker 2: into methodology or give away any trade secrets. But people
Speaker 2: know that this happens, and I think in some ways
Speaker 2: I hope it said as a turrent for those doing
Speaker 2: bad things, knowing that they can get caught if they're
Speaker 2: doing bad shit.
Speaker 1: We recently had an ATO officer from the United States
Speaker 1: that did a lot of undercover work. And it's a fascinating,
Speaker 1: fascinating world, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, the American environment is quite different. It's
Speaker 2: such a huge country, as we all know. But my
Speaker 2: sense is that nearly every federal agency in the US
Speaker 2: runs its own undercover program and its own tactical teams,
Speaker 2: and everyone carries weapons. It's a different environment. I'm not
Speaker 2: sure if how Australian Tax Office would want to carry
Speaker 2: weapons and go under cover.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not sure how it worked that way. So
Speaker 1: You've had a long, a long career, and I know
Speaker 1: when we were together in the cops, you always said
Speaker 1: to me that, yeah, you think this is the focus
Speaker 1: of the world in the cops, because it's how you police.
Speaker 1: I policed, and we're very much looking in with into
Speaker 1: the organization. You've been out of New South Wales polace
Speaker 1: you're still involved in law enforcement and different aspects. You've
Speaker 1: been out of the New South Wales Police for a
Speaker 1: long time. Does it give you a different perspective on
Speaker 1: the world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. And I think one of the
Speaker 2: realizations that you come to when you leave the police,
Speaker 2: as I'm sure you did, is that there is a
Speaker 2: bigger world out there. I was fortunate and that while
Speaker 2: I was still a police officer, I had two breaks.
Speaker 2: One when I went to Iraq, for a year, and
Speaker 2: then the second one when I went to the Special
Speaker 2: Tribunal for Lebanon to investigate the murders in Lebanon. So
Speaker 2: I had had a bit of a taste of the
Speaker 2: outside world, if you like, and I think I was
Speaker 2: probably reasonably comfortable making the transition after I left the police,
Speaker 2: as some of our sort of mutual friends would probably
Speaker 2: struggle a bit. They hadn't, and especially the guys that
Speaker 2: joined as cadets, who had been there since I was sixteen,
Speaker 2: hadn't really tasted the outside world. I think it's good
Speaker 2: to have life experience before you join, and I think
Speaker 2: it's certainly it's good to realize that there's a bigger
Speaker 2: world out there. It's not the end of the world.
Speaker 1: Well, a wise man and a good friend I won't
Speaker 1: name names, I'm looking at you that did pull me
Speaker 1: aside when I got into trouble with the cops and said, look,
Speaker 1: Dube's there is a big world out there. Don't panic.
Speaker 1: You'll find purpose and you'll find direction. And it was
Speaker 1: good advice at the time because I was a little
Speaker 1: bit What am I going to do now? But let's
Speaker 1: talk about your career. It's been a fascinating career and
Speaker 1: I remember when you were in the New South Wales
Speaker 1: place you'd often disappear. We'd say, where's Nick and he's
Speaker 1: over working in the Middle East, or he's doing that
Speaker 1: or doing this.
Speaker 2: For it only happened twice, actually, I think the other
Speaker 2: times I was probably dragged into secret hearings Police Integrity Commission.
Speaker 1: We'll talk about that a little bit later. But you
Speaker 1: had some amazing, amazing work that you did whilst you're
Speaker 1: still in the New South Wales Police. Tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit. And I know we've had you on the
Speaker 1: podcast before, but that we only scraped the surface. Now
Speaker 1: you did get I think three sessions. There was two
Speaker 1: people that pipped you. Pam Young she got four. We'll
Speaker 1: talk about that. I know that made you a bit
Speaker 1: crank at Pam understandably, and the other one was Graham Henry,
Speaker 1: but we probably won't say too much about that. But
Speaker 1: just tell us a little bit when you were in
Speaker 1: the New South Wales Police, some of the things that
Speaker 1: you were doing outside of the New South Wales Police.
Speaker 2: Yep. Sure, and again I mean this is in the book,
Speaker 2: but I did have to be a little bit careful.
Speaker 2: You can't go into too much detail about some of
Speaker 2: the issues. But in two thousand and four I was
Speaker 2: requested by the federal government. There's a request through colleagues
Speaker 2: on you and US law enforcement to join them in
Speaker 2: Iraq as part of the Coalition Authority College and Provisional
Speaker 2: Authority rebuilding the Iraqi National Police and other law enforcement
Speaker 2: agencies there. I am fluent in Arabic and I'm reasonably
Speaker 2: comfortable in the Middle East, have been in a few
Speaker 2: conflex zams I lived through the Sixth Day War and
Speaker 2: a few other things, so I was happy to do it.
Speaker 2: I took a leave of absence and I was gone
Speaker 2: for about nine nine ten months from New Southwest Police,
Speaker 2: seconded to the Federal government and deployed under the auspicess
Speaker 2: of IS. I think we did some good things rebuilding
Speaker 2: the Iraqi Police. I'm not going to tell you it
Speaker 2: was a total success, but certainly there were a lot
Speaker 2: of good people there trying very hard. And then in
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine, again I was selected by the
Speaker 2: United Nations to head up the investigations into the assassination
Speaker 2: of the former Prime Minister Hariri and a number of
Speaker 2: other murders that were related. So again I took a
Speaker 2: leave of absence. By those stage, I was deputy commissioner,
Speaker 2: but I was fortunate the government and the organization said
Speaker 2: they were happy for me to go. I was gone
Speaker 2: for about fifteen months. I think all up and that
Speaker 2: went well. I thought we indiced at five people. Ultimately
Speaker 2: two died and three were convicted in absentia in their absence.
Speaker 2: But I think, as I've often said, it's still worth
Speaker 2: doing even if you haven't physically arrested those people, because
Speaker 2: the assassination has actually stopped after twenty odd in four years.
Speaker 2: There have been a couple in more recent times, but
Speaker 2: certainly the trend has completely changed. Accountability and ending that
Speaker 2: cult of impunity. I thought was quite historic, and I
Speaker 2: was very happy to be a part of that.
Speaker 1: And did the skill set that you took from your
Speaker 1: policing career, did that lend itself well into those environments.
Speaker 2: It's basically murder investigations. I know there was a lot
Speaker 2: of politics in the motive and so on. But one
Speaker 2: of the things I hope I did when I got
Speaker 2: there is I asked the team in fact refocused the
Speaker 2: investigation to some extent to focus on the basic building
Speaker 2: blocks of a murder investigation, the crime scene, the forensic
Speaker 2: and ballistic evin and witnesses statements, canvassing, forensic evidence generally
Speaker 2: and so on, rather than racing towards a motive and
Speaker 2: a political angle. You had to do that later on,
Speaker 2: but it wasn't going to solve anything for us. It
Speaker 2: wasn't going to be what seves the murder. We had
Speaker 2: to prove it in a proper court with procedural fairness,
Speaker 2: and we did that.
Speaker 1: That's a voice or reason that's often needed in a
Speaker 1: homicide investigation, isn't it. And we were trained in the
Speaker 1: same lineage Hofside. It's all all the white noise on
Speaker 1: the outside, and you can get lost in that coming
Speaker 1: up with theories, but that comes down to gathering the
Speaker 1: evidence and just focusing and doing the basics.
Speaker 2: Is yeah, exactly. You know, you're absolutely right. It's like
Speaker 2: a building block. If you don't get the basics right,
Speaker 2: nothing else will work later on. But as you know, Gary,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of would be experts out there that
Speaker 2: haven't really done a lot of this stuff who talk
Speaker 2: about it because they feel that they know the answers,
Speaker 2: and more often than not, they don't.
Speaker 1: It's a little bit more complex, isn't it? For sure
Speaker 1: you've actually seen it, But I think it's interesting and
Speaker 1: I fully understand what you're saying that you go over
Speaker 1: there and just wind it back a little bit. Let's
Speaker 1: just focus on the important things and you build it that.
Speaker 1: That's the why homicides are generally solved, just building on
Speaker 1: the little pieces, putting it all together. Okay, the book
Speaker 1: behind the Badge, congratulations.
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1: I've read it cover the cover and I've got to
Speaker 1: say I like it. I enjoyed it.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Matt.
Speaker 1: And I know we had discussions before you were writing
Speaker 1: it and looking at it. How did you find it personally?
Speaker 1: Writing it torturous?
Speaker 2: Tell me that. I mean, I need to say you
Speaker 2: actually one of the people who inspired me. He said
Speaker 2: to me, you can do this, you should do this.
Speaker 2: It's been probably three years, I think with mind writer
Speaker 2: Roger Joyce, who did you know. He's a great guy,
Speaker 2: and I don't know. We used to do about two
Speaker 2: to two and a half hourly sessions. We must have
Speaker 2: done thirty over the three year period. And I was
Speaker 2: chairing the Royal Commission at the time, so I could
Speaker 2: only have to do it sort of at nights and
Speaker 2: weekends and what have you. And Roger was great with
Speaker 2: fitting in with me with all of that. The bottom
Speaker 2: line is, I'd find it now quite daunting that the
Speaker 2: book is out and you know everyone's going to read everything,
Speaker 2: and I'm worried. You know, I hope I've got everything right.
Speaker 2: I hope I didn't say anything that would offend people unnecessarily.
Speaker 2: But it's been quite an experience. I don't know if
Speaker 2: I told you go, but apart from yourself, and have
Speaker 2: a couple of other friends who have written books who
Speaker 2: have said to me, you know, you should do this
Speaker 2: for your family and your kids and your legacy if
Speaker 2: you like, rather than for yourself. There's a fellow called
Speaker 2: Bob bear Ba who's a former Cyia agent who did
Speaker 2: write his life story and dedicated his first book. He's
Speaker 2: written many now, but he dedicated his first book to
Speaker 2: his kids, and he said, I hope this guest some
Speaker 2: way towards explaining where the hell I was. And I
Speaker 2: actually discussed it with him many years a game and
Speaker 2: he said to me, it was really about that legacy
Speaker 2: for your family and your kids as well as yourself.
Speaker 2: But I'm happy there's some sort of record now where
Speaker 2: I've been and what I've done, and our journey from
Speaker 2: Egypt to Sydney and so on. But it is daunting.
Speaker 1: But okay, there's a couple of things to unpack there.
Speaker 1: But what you're saying too, and it makes me reflect
Speaker 1: even when you say it in this environment, that all
Speaker 1: the sacrifices you make it working in the sharp end
Speaker 1: of police in law enforcement like you did, and where
Speaker 1: you're not at the family Christmas party, you're not here
Speaker 1: or you've been called out, you're distracted, it does take
Speaker 1: a toll on the people around you. So a book
Speaker 1: is I'd like to be able to sit down that
Speaker 1: and read, Okay, that's where my father was or that's
Speaker 1: where my mate was.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I would hope also that my grandkids
Speaker 2: and great grandkids might get to read it. It's a
Speaker 2: bit of a legacy for us, I think for the
Speaker 2: Egyptian community generally, the Arabic community and all that. That's
Speaker 2: a part of it is that many people in the
Speaker 2: various communities encourage me to do this because they feel
Speaker 2: it's sort of a I won't say it's a good
Speaker 2: news story, but I hope it's somewhat inspirational. I hope
Speaker 2: I'm a little bit of a role model for some
Speaker 2: of the migrant communities. You know, we got it in
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine without much in our pocket. We had
Speaker 2: big dreams in our eyes, and we've done reasonably well.
Speaker 2: And if I can do it, one of the messages
Speaker 2: is anyone can do it.
Speaker 1: You jump out of the pages in the book, which
Speaker 1: I think is always a good read. I know you
Speaker 1: well and reading the book, it certainly is the neck
Speaker 1: that I know you don't pull any punches, but that's
Speaker 1: pretty much the way you've gone about your career. You
Speaker 1: knew where you stood, and that sort of comes out
Speaker 1: in the book.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope. So. I mean, I didn't set out
Speaker 2: to offend or upset anyone, but I said what I thought,
Speaker 2: and I do talk about the amount of scrutiny and
Speaker 2: that police today are under and the fact that those
Speaker 2: who oversite them, often bodies, generally super judicial bodies, have
Speaker 2: an enormous amount of power, and with that there should
Speaker 2: come an enormous amount of accountability, but that's not always
Speaker 2: the case.
Speaker 1: On the front page of the cover a little mantra
Speaker 1: that I think sets it well. Do good work, Live
Speaker 1: by your beliefs and fear no one that there are
Speaker 1: three strong statements are on the front cover of your book.
Speaker 1: Is that how you went about your career?
Speaker 2: I hope, I hope so, particularly the last one. I mean,
Speaker 2: I would hope in all the commands I've been in,
Speaker 2: and the people I've led and the people who have
Speaker 2: worked with me, we've never bent over because someone tried
Speaker 2: to stand over us, to go on a particular direction,
Speaker 2: or to do something that we don't think was right.
Speaker 2: I think you've been the same, and I'm really proud
Speaker 2: of you for doing that. Gary. But I think if
Speaker 2: you lose that, all is lost. And I used to
Speaker 2: tell people kids who are graduating from a police academy,
Speaker 2: nobody can take your integrity from you. You have to
Speaker 2: give it up. It's really your call what you do
Speaker 2: and how you act, and then you're accountable for what
Speaker 2: you've done.
Speaker 1: Well, that's a good way and good advice. And I
Speaker 1: also hope with a book like this it might inspire
Speaker 1: people look at the life that you have lived. I'm
Speaker 1: sure in your wildest days when you walked into the academy,
Speaker 1: you didn't think you'd have the career that you've had.
Speaker 2: Absolutely not. I actually am not ambitious. I know I've
Speaker 2: got the deputy commissioner, but I didn't sit and think, jeez,
Speaker 2: I want to get promoted. I want to get promoted,
Speaker 2: and you and I know people who have. But I
Speaker 2: don't know. Things just happened. I was in the right
Speaker 2: place at the right time often, or there was something
Speaker 2: that I felt I was particularly suited to, and then
Speaker 2: when it came up, I threw Manhatt in the ring
Speaker 2: and was able to succeed.
Speaker 1: I think the system works when someone just can concentrate
Speaker 1: on doing their work and get rewarded, you know, without
Speaker 1: we know good cops, bad cops, all sorts of cops.
Speaker 1: But I say publicly that where people are trying to
Speaker 1: use the career in the police for their own personal gain,
Speaker 1: I'm not talking corruption, although it's probably pretty close to
Speaker 1: corruption where the main focus is how I can get
Speaker 1: promoted rather than what you're there to do the work.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. I mean I used to when I got
Speaker 2: to the senior ranks and I had to sort of
Speaker 2: sit in judgment on others and whether they get promoted
Speaker 2: or not. I like seeing guys and girls who are
Speaker 2: focused on the job. They've got and do it well
Speaker 2: without thinking about the next step, as you say, rather
Speaker 2: than those who get somewhere and they're already thinking about
Speaker 2: the next step and not focused on what they've got
Speaker 2: in front of them. You've got to make your mark
Speaker 2: everywhere you've been. You know, three or four years I
Speaker 2: think is good. And this is some extenuating circumstances. But
Speaker 2: three or four years and the one spot is good.
Speaker 2: You make your mark, do your best, and then you
Speaker 2: can look around.
Speaker 1: How do you think your upbringing shaped you in the
Speaker 1: way that you did? Police in there? Can you tell
Speaker 1: listeners a little bit about your upbringing, because it's unique
Speaker 1: in itself.
Speaker 2: Sure, I do go over it in the book. I
Speaker 2: hope I that sort of put anyone to sleep. But
Speaker 2: I was born and brought up. I'm Coptic Orthodox Egyptian
Speaker 2: Christian Egyptian Christian Arab and we were from the south
Speaker 2: far south, a place called us Jult, and they are
Speaker 2: fairly traditional and conservative they're but we moved from there
Speaker 2: to Cairo, and then from Cairo we migrated to Australia
Speaker 2: when I was about twelve in nineteen sixty nine. I
Speaker 2: think my upbringing has had a huge impact. Obviously, on
Speaker 2: who I am, on what I've done, and I think
Speaker 2: it probably applies to mass people. You're a product of
Speaker 2: your environment. Our family's fairly reasonably religious. We're Christians, my brothers.
Speaker 2: My brother was a medical doctor, but he gave up
Speaker 2: medicine and went into the priesthood the Coptic Orthodox Church,
Speaker 2: and he's still there. And I guess the core values
Speaker 2: that I hope that I hold and adhere to in
Speaker 2: fairness to others. I used to sell superintendents when people
Speaker 2: got promoted to superintendent. I used to try and see
Speaker 2: them before they got the paperwork. All I'll ask of
Speaker 2: you is that you treat others the way you'd like
Speaker 2: to be treated. So that really basic principle of fairness,
Speaker 2: how you treat people how you'd like to be treated.
Speaker 2: And I'd say to them that if I saw that
Speaker 2: not happening, you'll hear from me. By and large, people
Speaker 2: were good with that. But I think these sort of
Speaker 2: values about doing good, working hard, being fair to others,
Speaker 2: and not getting a big head about where you are
Speaker 2: and what you've achieved and what rank or position you hold.
Speaker 2: I think these are really important to me, and they
Speaker 2: all come directly out of my childhood. My father, as
Speaker 2: I mentioned in the book, was a weightlifter, and he
Speaker 2: had massive, big arms and legs and what have you.
Speaker 2: And he was a little bit shorter than me, but
Speaker 2: he's certainly chunkier, and he just I think, his whole
Speaker 2: life if he'd no man, And I hope I followed that.
Speaker 2: He certainly didn't change his views or bend in some
Speaker 2: really significant way just to please someone else, or was
Speaker 2: because someone's intimidated him, because he forgive the language, but
Speaker 2: he never took any shit from anyone.
Speaker 1: And you're going to get that in policing, aren't you,
Speaker 1: Even from at any rank. You're going to have those
Speaker 1: moral dilemmas and ethical dilemmas in policing and standing up
Speaker 1: for what's right or wrong and what you believe. What's
Speaker 1: the secret to that?
Speaker 2: Like, I guess I've been blessed in a number of ways,
Speaker 2: but one of them is having the support of my
Speaker 2: family and the not just the support, but the fact
Speaker 2: that they validate I guess where I'm heading and what
Speaker 2: I'm doing, And I think that's really important, having a
Speaker 2: sort of support network around it. And the second thing
Speaker 2: is with my friends and colleagues that I've had, including yourself,
Speaker 2: over the years, who have basically validated again what I'm
Speaker 2: doing and what I'm heading, and I count I've always
Speaker 2: counted on those around me to say, hang on a minute,
Speaker 2: you may have got this wrong. You want to look
Speaker 2: at it again. I will always listen to that. And
Speaker 2: I've had staff office as they call them, staff officer
Speaker 2: or achieve your staff as someone who really runs your
Speaker 2: office and is your right hand person man or woman.
Speaker 2: And I had that in the police for many years,
Speaker 2: and I had it overseas as well in the various
Speaker 2: roles I've had. It's a really important role. But it's again,
Speaker 2: it's someone who's a bit of a sounding board, who's
Speaker 2: not you, and who can speak to you honestly behind
Speaker 2: class doors about whether you've run off the rails, whether
Speaker 2: you've done something it's not going well, and then you,
Speaker 2: hopefully you listen and you fix it. I've always told
Speaker 2: those who worked around me, is you need to give
Speaker 2: it that't sugar cat, It just tell me what's really
Speaker 2: going on. I've seen other leaders who pat it on
Speaker 2: the back by their staff officers and staff when everybody
Speaker 2: knows they're not going well. It's no who's hiding it.
Speaker 2: You know, it's no use hiding the truth from them,
Speaker 2: because sooner or later it leads you down a completely
Speaker 2: wrong track.
Speaker 1: Well, it's that if the fable of the Emperor's new
Speaker 1: Clothes and everyone understanding, oh, you look great in that,
Speaker 1: and yeah, certainly, and yeah, I've been fortunate enough to
Speaker 1: work under the commands. You're the commander at homicide and
Speaker 1: other areas, and you always knew where you stood with
Speaker 1: you and I did like the fact, like there's some
Speaker 1: people would go in there and you know what the
Speaker 1: decision is going to be, you would at least give
Speaker 1: me your ear to hear what I've got to say.
Speaker 1: You might agree or might not agree, but it's a
Speaker 1: good way of leading.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I think so. I actually appreciate
Speaker 2: that approach and other agencies as well. I do talk
Speaker 2: a little bit in the book about the Director of
Speaker 2: Public Prosecution. It's a really important office. Nick Cowdrey held
Speaker 2: that position for many years. But here was someone if
Speaker 2: he made a decision that we didn't agree with and
Speaker 2: we sought an audience to explain our thoughts, he would
Speaker 2: always make that happen. Not necessarily with him personally, but
Speaker 2: he would always make sure that you've got a hearing
Speaker 2: in writing or in person, or whatever you wanted to do.
Speaker 2: I think it's just really important to be fair to people.
Speaker 2: If they're disagreeing with you and they think they have
Speaker 2: a point of view that you should hear before you
Speaker 2: make a decision that affects them. In any walk of
Speaker 2: life or any walk of life, it's important.
Speaker 1: Holds you in good stead. Let's I want to read
Speaker 1: an extract out from the book, and it's just it's
Speaker 1: you explain it because it's fascinating. I love the description
Speaker 1: of it. I'll try to do it justice reading it out.
Speaker 1: So this is an extract from your book, and I
Speaker 1: want you to explain the situation. Smoke from the big,
Speaker 1: expensive colhebe cigars curled in the air around us. I
Speaker 1: sunk deep into a luxurious lounge, and the only thing
Speaker 1: between me and one of the most feared men in
Speaker 1: the Middle East was an elegant coffee table laden with
Speaker 1: French cakes, tiny cups of Arab coffee, and a massive astre.
Speaker 1: My companion was a man so powerful he could make
Speaker 1: people disappear in the heartbeat, including me, if he felt
Speaker 1: like it. And I was on his turf. You got
Speaker 1: my attention, Nick, tell us what's what that is about.
Speaker 1: That's an extract from the book Behind the Badge.
Speaker 2: Right, So, there's a probably a chapter or two in
Speaker 2: the book about my role as the Director of Oversight
Speaker 2: for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. Essentially, I
Speaker 2: was like the head of Internal Affairs. UNU is an
Speaker 2: agency that handles all the issues to do with the
Speaker 2: Palestine refugees, which is very topical at the moment. Thirty
Speaker 2: thousand plus staff, a budget of two plus billion US
Speaker 2: a year in five countries where the refugees are located,
Speaker 2: five locations Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Gaza and the West Bank,
Speaker 2: and we had offices and staff in all five areas.
Speaker 2: I had four departments, Sorry to ramble a bit that
Speaker 2: I had four departments, and Investigations being one of the
Speaker 2: main ones, and then Audits evaluation. The un evaluates every
Speaker 2: program to see if it's working or not. And then
Speaker 2: the Ethics division. So wherever there were complaints about anything
Speaker 2: in process or even promotions, for instance, within the agency,
Speaker 2: we would investigate those. We had a whole lot of
Speaker 2: work to be done. In the Syrian office in Damascus,
Speaker 2: my investigators, in particular being refused visas to go into Syria. I,
Speaker 2: as the leader, had to find a way to change
Speaker 2: that so that we did get I managed to get.
Speaker 2: I used to get my visas all the time. I
Speaker 2: need to say we traveled on diplomatic passports with the
Speaker 2: United Nations. Theoretically you shouldn't need a visa to go anywhere,
Speaker 2: but the two countries that insisted on a visa were
Speaker 2: Israel and Syria. They're the ones were affect that affected us.
Speaker 2: So Syria, I had to find a way to reach
Speaker 2: the Syrian government to allow my people to be able
Speaker 2: to come in and out so they can carry out
Speaker 2: these really important investigations. And those investigations are particularly important
Speaker 2: to reassure donor countries. Hundreds of millions of dollars are involved.
Speaker 2: They need to make sure that they need to be
Speaker 2: assured that everything's on track, there's no corruption and so on,
Speaker 2: which I think buy in large was the case. So
Speaker 2: I tapped into an Egyptian fellow on you who was
Speaker 2: a very senior person in the United Nations security apparatus.
Speaker 2: I knew he had reach into the Syrian regime because
Speaker 2: of time he had spent there. And we had dinner
Speaker 2: in Amman and Jordan, where I was living at the time,
Speaker 2: with this United Nations posting, and I asked if you
Speaker 2: could introduce me to someone who can get this done.
Speaker 2: And he nominated this fellow the rank of major general,
Speaker 2: and he was essentially the head of a committee that
Speaker 2: had all the intelligence agencies, including the secret police and
Speaker 2: so on in the Assad regime in Syria. I took
Speaker 2: a bit of a gamble. Some people in my office
Speaker 2: said you shouldn't go. Others I didn't tell them because
Speaker 2: I knew it was just going to cause problems even it.
Speaker 1: Shouldn't go for safety reasons.
Speaker 2: Shouldn't safety, Yeah, So we'd fly into a be route
Speaker 2: and then get a car across and get picked up
Speaker 2: by the UN car. It's about two and a half
Speaker 2: hours to Damascus. You can't fly into Damascus in that
Speaker 2: stage because there was a war, and the UN said
Speaker 2: you can't be flying. He's not safe. So we'd drive
Speaker 2: to Damascus and then have our meetings. They used to
Speaker 2: go for four or five or a week, four or
Speaker 2: five days or a week, and then come back to
Speaker 2: beirutin and head back to Jordan where I was living,
Speaker 2: where headquarters was and so I arranged to meet this
Speaker 2: fellow through my contact and I got given the number
Speaker 2: of his chief of staff, who was a major, and
Speaker 2: that's who I dealt with to arrange the meeting. I
Speaker 2: on the day in question, when I decided to go
Speaker 2: and meet him, to ask you, very very nicely, if
Speaker 2: you could make sure that all my stuff got visas.
Speaker 2: I had one security person with me who was armed,
Speaker 2: and I think a car may have been armored at
Speaker 2: the time. It took us a while to find the compound.
Speaker 2: The run as science is nothing and the description I
Speaker 2: had simply wasn't the best. Eventually we found it and
Speaker 2: then we went They were expecting us, and we went
Speaker 2: through a number of checkpoints to get to these marble
Speaker 2: stairs to get that goes into the building, and my
Speaker 2: escort was told to stay in the car outside, and
Speaker 2: I didn't expect him to come in with me, and
Speaker 2: I wouldn't want him to coming with me. And then
Speaker 2: I went inside and we went through some more checkpoints
Speaker 2: and I met with the general and his chief of
Speaker 2: staff and a couple of others. I think we're there,
Speaker 2: and I explained what I was there for. Sorry, before
Speaker 2: I talked to him about all of that. And this
Speaker 2: is something for people to bear in mind when they're
Speaker 2: dealing with Arabic community in particular. But I think human
Speaker 2: beings generally, they should make a bit of an effort
Speaker 2: to build some rap or discuss the weather, you know,
Speaker 2: what you do on the weekend, whatever, just something, rather
Speaker 2: than just launching straight into business. Certainly in the Arab world,
Speaker 2: it's rude to come in and just launch into the
Speaker 2: business at hand. So we did that for about fifteen
Speaker 2: twenty minutes, and he was very interested in my background,
Speaker 2: why I spoke Arabic. He picked my accents straight away.
Speaker 2: I think he knew who I was and all that,
Speaker 2: So that's why I was there. And we had a
Speaker 2: really really animated, very positive discussion, and I think he
Speaker 2: liked me. I think I won him over, and he
Speaker 2: in some ways won me over as well. I mean,
Speaker 2: knowing what he's been involved in with the Assid regime,
Speaker 2: and I had conducted the investigation of the use of
Speaker 2: chemical weapons and all these guys were ended up to
Speaker 2: their ear holes. And yet it was impossible, as I
Speaker 2: say in the book, it was impossible to dislike the
Speaker 2: bloke when you met him up front. Up close, and
Speaker 2: he said you'll have what you'll get what you want,
Speaker 2: no problem, and he was true to his word. I
Speaker 2: did make an effort to go and see him a
Speaker 2: number of times after that, just to maintain a relationship.
Speaker 2: He was actually very helpful to us. I think the
Speaker 2: main thing I had to explain to him, and I
Speaker 2: sat and thought about that before I went and saw him,
Speaker 2: is we're not there investigating the Asset regime. It'syria. We're
Speaker 2: like internal affairs. We're investigating United Nations staff who were
Speaker 2: accused or suspected of doing the wrong thing. It's nothing
Speaker 2: to do with the regime. I do say in the
Speaker 2: book also that I wasn't sure if he really knew
Speaker 2: who I was, because I had led the investigation into
Speaker 2: the assassination of the Prime Minister and we charged Hesibela figures,
Speaker 2: and then I did the investigation to chemicalre weapons and
Speaker 2: we wrote the report that blamed the Asset regime. So
Speaker 2: on those two counts he would have been cranky with me,
Speaker 2: but I didn't see any sign of that. And in
Speaker 2: the last time I went to see him to say, look,
Speaker 2: I'm heading back to Australia, and you know he's took
Speaker 2: someone with me to introduce him, to maintain the contact,
Speaker 2: who was a Sudanese fellow who also spake Arabic. I
Speaker 2: still wasn't sure if he knew what I had done
Speaker 2: in the past, and I said something about a report
Speaker 2: being written, and he just looked at me and he said,
Speaker 2: and as people write reports about all sorts of things,
Speaker 2: it doesn't things, it doesn't mean anything. And him and
Speaker 2: his team just laughed, and he knew exactly who I was.
Speaker 2: But it didn't stop him helping me. It didn't stop
Speaker 2: him meeting with me. And certainly nothing bad happened to me,
Speaker 2: and I didn't think it would, Otherwise I wouldn't have
Speaker 2: gone in.
Speaker 1: I suppose the risk there, like UN been a member
Speaker 1: of the UN would offer you some form of protection,
Speaker 1: but it also make you a valuable asset. They wanted
Speaker 1: to look who we've got, We've got Nick possibly.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but look, I mean, by and large, the regime
Speaker 2: played fair with the United Nations. But look, it was
Speaker 2: a bit of a risk. And after I did it,
Speaker 2: I declared it to those above me, and they weren't
Speaker 2: entirely comfortable with it. But we got the job done.
Speaker 2: We got the visas and our staff was going in.
Speaker 2: We're going in and out with no problem at all,
Speaker 2: in and out of CREA.
Speaker 1: If you can do that, there's probably a couple of
Speaker 1: things I should declare to you when you were my boss.
Speaker 1: So I didn't declare at a time, but we got
Speaker 1: a way over it.
Speaker 2: I'm going to need a list later too.
Speaker 1: I'll start in alphabetical order. It matters like that. But
Speaker 1: it's interesting, isn't it that the skills that you have
Speaker 1: as a police officer in New South Wales and state police,
Speaker 1: you've taken them on the world stage and it's about communication.
Speaker 1: It's about assessing people and building a rapport, which is
Speaker 1: pretty much the way you've got through your career in
Speaker 1: New South Wales.
Speaker 2: I hope so. Gary. The other thing is, I think
Speaker 2: I don't think I'm that special. I think police generally,
Speaker 2: but particularly detectives, are problem solves. We look at an
Speaker 2: issue and how do you get around it, how do
Speaker 2: you get the job done. It's what cops do every
Speaker 2: day of the week. I simply applied that wherever I went,
Speaker 2: and I was very lucky. We got everywhere I've been,
Speaker 2: we've actually achieved the objectives. So I'm happy about that.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, the book is a rollercoaster of highs and
Speaker 1: lows and different things. Operation Mascot. Do you want to
Speaker 1: talk about it?
Speaker 2: Not particularly because I think it is important.
Speaker 1: I think it defines you as a person, and I'll
Speaker 1: let you tell the story. But the fact that you
Speaker 1: dug your heels in and kept fighting for not just yourself,
Speaker 1: for everyone because you didn't think it was ethical and
Speaker 1: fair and whatso.
Speaker 2: There it was supposed to be an investigation in the
Speaker 2: corrupt police, and there was a fellow known as M five,
Speaker 2: his identity suppressed, and he for some reason turned if
Speaker 2: you like, and offered or was forced to assist internal
Speaker 2: affairs and the Police Integrity Commission and the new South
Speaker 2: ask Grime Commission for quite some time, perhaps a couple
Speaker 2: of years of wiring up, you know, wearing a bug
Speaker 2: going around the state basically trying to talk to allegedly
Speaker 2: corrupt police to entrap them. Basically I was a subject
Speaker 2: of that. It was one of my complaints at the
Speaker 2: time was that the legislation allowing entrapment agent provocateur if
Speaker 2: you like, states that it can only be as a
Speaker 2: result of a specific complaint, and you can only test
Speaker 2: for that specific evense and you can only do it once.
Speaker 2: I got about half a dozen visits from him. I
Speaker 2: had someone else that had got fifteen visits from him,
Speaker 2: So there were no rules at that stage. Four Internal
Speaker 2: affairs and special crime.
Speaker 1: When did that happen? And how long you're.
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know exactly when it started, but
Speaker 2: it was certainly the late nineties and into the two thousands,
Speaker 2: so I understand it wrapped up about two thousand and three.
Speaker 1: Perhaps, And would you have touched on in the book?
Speaker 1: So yeah, I do.
Speaker 2: Yeah. When we began discussions about the book with the
Speaker 2: publishers and the author and so on, I did make
Speaker 2: the point that I didn't want this issue of that
Speaker 2: I'm about to tell you about to be what defines me.
Speaker 2: I hope It's not what definds me. I hope. I'm
Speaker 2: a lot of other things as well. But it did
Speaker 2: play a part obviously in my life. That took a
Speaker 2: couple of years out of my life probably, So I
Speaker 2: was the target of internal affairs for quite some time
Speaker 2: and the Police Integrity Commission in unison. I was probably
Speaker 2: a loud, annoying voice in the background. I did get
Speaker 2: to be on the executive of the police union and
Speaker 2: wearing that hat. I can think of one particular press
Speaker 2: conference where I held the press conference and called them
Speaker 2: out for what they weren't following processes. After the wood
Speaker 2: Raw Commission, the oversight industry, if you like, was completely
Speaker 2: out of control. They could do whatever they wanted and
Speaker 2: justified by the fact that Wood had uncovered corruption, which
Speaker 2: he clearly did. It's made out about that, So then
Speaker 2: I became target one. Ironically, some of the people who
Speaker 2: I now know were investigating me I had made formal
Speaker 2: complaints about, so they had massive conflicts of interest. I
Speaker 2: also now know that I was the subject of eighty
Speaker 2: eight zero bugging warrants, which the Armbudsman at the time,
Speaker 2: Bruce Barber, the in a parliamentary inquiry. So they established
Speaker 2: a parliamentary inquiry. When the affidavits behind the warrants came
Speaker 2: to light, and it showed that most of us were
Speaker 2: not actually were not mentioned in the affidavits, so there
Speaker 2: was no information placed before the judge for him or
Speaker 2: her to sign the warrant to authorize us being buggd.
Speaker 2: It was completely inappropriate and illegal. Now when that came
Speaker 2: to light, there were many, many renewed complaints from one
Speaker 2: hundred and fourteen of us, and so they get Premier
Speaker 2: at the time, Barrier Farrell. He can't give it to
Speaker 2: internal Affairs, they're accused, couldn't give it to the Police
Speaker 2: Integrity Commission, they're accused, couldn't give it to the New
Speaker 2: southmast Crime Commission. They're accused. They were all part of
Speaker 2: this bugging operation Mascot, Operation Mascot Florida. So they gave
Speaker 2: it to the Ombudsman's office. Somewhere along the line they
Speaker 2: added the line in there that he should investigate who
Speaker 2: revealed the wrongdoing. Now, most of us it had been
Speaker 2: declared whistleblowers under the Public Interest Disclosures Legislation. I think
Speaker 2: it's Section nineteen of the Public Interest Disclosures Act says
Speaker 2: that if your problem is not solved within six months,
Speaker 2: you're entitled to it specifies in the Act. In the
Speaker 2: legislation you are entitled to talk to journalists and politicians,
Speaker 2: which is what a lot of us did. Now, the
Speaker 2: body that's meant to protect whistleblowers in New South Wales
Speaker 2: is the Mbuzman's office, and yet that's who grilled all
Speaker 2: of us about who revealed the wrongdoing. And to this
Speaker 2: day I've not been asked one question about the bugging.
Speaker 2: All of us have been asked about is who revealed
Speaker 2: the wrongdoing? So we complained the Office of Bombusman does
Speaker 2: not have an inspector, so he answered to Parliament. So
Speaker 2: we went to Parliament and they held two inquiries into
Speaker 2: what happened. And obviously they're not happy about the body
Speaker 2: that was investigating the wrongdoing also investigating who revealed the wrongdoing.
Speaker 2: You can't do that, and that's where it lays that
Speaker 2: they handed down a report that no one with no
Speaker 2: one agreed with. Certainly all the aggrieved individuals are very
Speaker 2: unhappy because there's been no closure. They never got to
Speaker 2: the bottom of the bugging, and no one's been held
Speaker 2: to account.
Speaker 1: There's been no It was an ugly, ugly time and
Speaker 1: there was a lot of us mentioned mentioned on the
Speaker 1: warrant and.
Speaker 2: Not what were you on there?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I got to the point where I didn't realize
Speaker 1: I was on there, But I was starting to get
Speaker 1: concerned because there's so many what I considered good police
Speaker 1: that were on there.
Speaker 2: A few people have said to me, what's wrong with me?
Speaker 2: How come I didn't make the warrants.
Speaker 1: I think I deserved it. We joke about it. But
Speaker 1: the police corruption, but you made an interesting point in
Speaker 1: your in your book, and we know what happened with
Speaker 1: the Wood Royal Commission and needed to stamp out corruption.
Speaker 1: There's no argument there. Then we have Skia investigating police
Speaker 1: and you made the point that, yeah, they got to
Speaker 1: the police pre royal commission to talk of noble cause
Speaker 1: corruption in that you know, the ends justify the means
Speaker 1: and all that and not being accountable. And it's started
Speaker 1: to evolve that the police, the people that were investigating
Speaker 1: the corrupt police for corrupt behavior, we're think, yeah, not
Speaker 1: with accordance to the rules, that.
Speaker 2: They were bending the rules too. There's not out about that. Yeah, look,
Speaker 2: I just it was one of those things I had
Speaker 2: to really sit and think about how much do I
Speaker 2: want to say do I want to say anything about this?
Speaker 2: And I didn't have it in me to leave it out,
Speaker 2: but I didn't want it to dominate the book, and
Speaker 2: I didn't want anyone to think this is a bit.
Speaker 2: This book is a big winch I hope it's not
Speaker 2: a win.
Speaker 1: Well, I put on record now because I read through
Speaker 1: it and I wondered where you were going with it.
Speaker 1: I didn't see it. There's a wine that was an observation,
Speaker 1: and you paid homage to you're not talking everyone, You're
Speaker 1: talking certain people and making things like there was something
Speaker 1: that really resonated with me that people that were investigating
Speaker 1: weren't working within the restrictions of that we have to
Speaker 1: do as police officers. Even though they were police officers,
Speaker 1: they weren't qualifying for their weapons.
Speaker 2: And all that stuff.
Speaker 1: All that stuff like that about unfairness. So I probably
Speaker 1: zero in in light of what's happened to me, But
Speaker 1: I think it was a balance view, and you were
Speaker 1: very careful not to attack in the individuals on it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I really didn't want to set out to
Speaker 2: have it, as we said, to be a big wings.
Speaker 2: I have most of the book, and the tone of
Speaker 2: the book is positive. It's about a happy story where
Speaker 2: I achieved a great deal and started with nothing and
Speaker 2: so on. But I also couldn't leave it out. It
Speaker 2: was the same as actually making the complaints way back.
Speaker 2: I had to make a decision do I sit silently
Speaker 2: and let someone else do their heavy lifting. But I
Speaker 2: mean I had got the deputy commissioner and I had
Speaker 2: at least two friends who really suffered by what happened
Speaker 2: with Operation Mascot in the en ones Month's office. They
Speaker 2: were treated very badly. I didn't have it in me
Speaker 2: to pretend I didn't see what was happening and to
Speaker 2: let someone else do their heavy lifting, right up until
Speaker 2: the day I walked into the parliamentary inquiry and unleashed
Speaker 2: if you like. I found out later that the crime
Speaker 2: squads had basically down tools that day and stayed glued
Speaker 2: to the TV. A lot of them stayed glued to
Speaker 2: the TV and the meal rims.
Speaker 1: We're interested, I'll admit to that.
Speaker 2: But the bottom line is, I think you just have
Speaker 2: to make a decision. I didn't have it in me
Speaker 2: to walk away and just forget, you know, so let
Speaker 2: someone else do the heavy lift. Before I walked into
Speaker 2: that parliamentary inquiry, my lawyer, who I trust with my life,
Speaker 2: said to me, last chance, Is there any chance you
Speaker 2: just let this go and let someone else take the
Speaker 2: heavy lifting?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And I just said, I just I really appreciate you're
Speaker 2: worrying about me. I've made my mind up. I mean
Speaker 2: a lot of politicians said to me, if you do this,
Speaker 2: you might feely have done the right thing, but it
Speaker 2: probably means you'll never be a commissioner. I thought about
Speaker 2: it and I made a conscious decision to go ahead.
Speaker 2: You know what, I regret nothing, absolutely nothing. I do
Speaker 2: it all again tomorrow for I had to.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think it's mark you as a man
Speaker 1: and the officer that you respected for the type of person.
Speaker 1: But what's a personal cost? So I know taking the stand.
Speaker 1: I've taken the stand on different things, and I know
Speaker 1: it comes to the cost. You get, okay, I'm going
Speaker 1: to do this. You're sitting they're thinking do I really
Speaker 1: want this? No? Fuck it? And you go in there
Speaker 1: and you do it. But it takes a cost. What
Speaker 1: sort of costs does it take on you?
Speaker 2: It certainly took the stuffing out of me for a
Speaker 2: few years. I was dragged into hearings at the Police
Speaker 2: Deegorty Commission and all that. I go into all that,
Speaker 2: and on a personal level, I certainly didn't help my marriage.
Speaker 2: And you know, when I went to the parliamentary inquiry
Speaker 2: someone I had remarried my current wife and I don't
Speaker 2: think she'd been through something like this before, but watching
Speaker 2: her husband go through a really horrible time. There's a
Speaker 2: lot of mudfrain in every direction. Thankfully, I don't think
Speaker 2: anything stuck to me. My complaint was that I had
Speaker 2: not been asked one question about what had gone wrong
Speaker 2: with twenty one Supreme Court judges signing warrants where they're
Speaker 2: authorizing the bugging of people even though they're not mentioned
Speaker 2: in the affidavit and there is no information against us.
Speaker 2: If that has happened, then I'm hoping it doesn't still continue.
Speaker 2: Then you know, it's a huge miscarriage of justice. I
Speaker 2: see that whole episode and the inquiry that followed it
Speaker 2: as a dark day, a very dark day for justice
Speaker 2: in the state of New South Wales. It hasn't been righted,
Speaker 2: it's never been sorted. It still hangs like a cloud
Speaker 2: over a whole lot of people, and there's no closure.
Speaker 2: I mean, one of the reasons I took on the
Speaker 2: Lebanon investigations was to try and give people closure. Out
Speaker 2: of all those murders that had happened. You and I
Speaker 2: have worked on homicide, and it's probably one of the
Speaker 2: most satisfying things when you solve the murder and lock
Speaker 2: up the murderer and you can go to the victim's
Speaker 2: family sit down with them and say, this is what happened.
Speaker 2: We now know the truth. At least it won't bring
Speaker 2: them back the person that's been killed, but at least
Speaker 2: you know what happened, and it gives you closure. I
Speaker 2: mean that's a really extreme example, but certainly the bugging
Speaker 2: saga there's been no closure.
Speaker 1: Well, I think the fact that you stand up. Sometimes
Speaker 1: you don't get the exact result you're aiming for. Sometimes
Speaker 1: that doesn't come out. But the fact that you stood
Speaker 1: up and made peopleccountable because it was worrying that people know. Okay,
Speaker 1: we're the major crime detectives. People make allegations against it,
Speaker 1: the nature nature of our work, and then you have
Speaker 1: the people sitting above the judicating on us. Well, they
Speaker 1: should be working by the same rules we're working by.
Speaker 2: Yeah, procedural fairness should trump all.
Speaker 1: And you can't you can't argue, can't argue with that.
Speaker 1: But I had a laugh, and that there is for
Speaker 1: all the darkness, there's some humor. Then you became the
Speaker 1: deputy commissioner after causing all this kerfuffle, and who do
Speaker 1: you have to oversee the very body of the command
Speaker 1: that you were complaining about tell me about that? How
Speaker 1: that go? That would have been a nice meeting.
Speaker 2: First up, well, I think the Special Crime Unit, which
Speaker 2: really had no reason to exist, it was a mini
Speaker 2: CIB competing with the ouse version of the CIB, come
Speaker 2: an investigation area in crime agencies. And then it becomes
Speaker 2: that Crime Command was simply about individuals who felt this
Speaker 2: was good for their career. That's my view now. I
Speaker 2: think everyone felt that it wasn't working and it needed
Speaker 2: to be disbanded. But I was briefed by the Australian
Speaker 2: Federal Police about their secret investigation into a fellow called
Speaker 2: Marke Standen, who was the Assistant Commissioner in the new
Speaker 2: Southwest Crime Commission, a former Federal police officer and former
Speaker 2: customs agent. I was told obviously it had to remain
Speaker 2: a secret for a little bit longer. I think it
Speaker 2: was six months or so after I was brief that
Speaker 2: he was finally arrested. But he was sort of the
Speaker 2: co leader or co commander really of the Special Crime
Speaker 2: Investigations internal affairs. So when he was arrested and charged
Speaker 2: and he's been convicted, he's done his time and he's out.
Speaker 2: Now I understand he did twenty odd years. By the way,
Speaker 2: when that happened, we then moved towards shutting down the
Speaker 2: special crime function of Internal Affairs and got Internal Affairs
Speaker 2: to go back to being internal affairs. We changed the
Speaker 2: name to Professional Standards, which is a lot more than
Speaker 2: just internal affairs. It's about doing things proactively and having
Speaker 2: processes in place, sps, standard operating procedures in place and
Speaker 2: so on. That helped the cop on the street to
Speaker 2: give them an environment in which they can know what's
Speaker 2: right and what's wrong, and have resources that help them
Speaker 2: make decisions and so on. And I'm really proud Paul
Speaker 2: Carey was the Assistant commission that we promoted to get
Speaker 2: that job done. And he did say to me at
Speaker 2: one stage that the word fairness did not appear in
Speaker 2: any of the literature in the previous regime, and any
Speaker 2: of the standard operating procedures. Fairness just didn't feature.
Speaker 1: It's all my like they were creating a pseudo major crime.
Speaker 2: It was yeah, so yeah, look, but to your point,
Speaker 2: the day I made a decision, so I had been
Speaker 2: promoted to Deputy commission, a specialist operation. I was among
Speaker 2: the many commands I had. I was in charge became
Speaker 2: in charge of internal affairs. I had to go down
Speaker 2: and tell them that we're disbanding the unit and then
Speaker 2: lead to go back into the mainstream and that will
Speaker 2: help them in any way they can, which we did
Speaker 2: and some of them did, and some of them simply
Speaker 2: didn't want to do that. But it was a joke
Speaker 2: at the time that they were. As I was coming
Speaker 2: up in the lift, they were probably wiping my name
Speaker 2: off the whiteboards as target one.
Speaker 1: Well you know what's it saying? You should be nicer
Speaker 1: people on the way up different things? Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I'd come back to hall.
Speaker 2: I didn't particularly take any joy from it. Some good
Speaker 2: people there who had simply been let down by the
Speaker 2: system allowing them to sit in that place for ten
Speaker 2: or fifteen years. And I meant what I said on
Speaker 2: the day. We did our best to try and have
Speaker 2: them reintegrate into normal policing. So they were in a
Speaker 2: secret area of internal affairs, working out of the new
Speaker 2: South Wales Crime Commission, relying on its resources and its
Speaker 2: secrecy provisions. They were removed from reality, from the reality
Speaker 2: of policing for a decade.
Speaker 1: And yeah, look at Mark Stanton, what a blight on
Speaker 1: the position he held and the stuff he was up to.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it does throw light on super judicial bodies,
Speaker 2: as I mentioned before, and it's in the book about
Speaker 2: them having extraordinary power, perhaps often without the extraordinary checks
Speaker 2: and balances that must go with it. I mean, we've
Speaker 2: traded away the right to silence in many jurisdictions, and
Speaker 2: I'm not sure that's a good thing.
Speaker 1: One. Just as you're telling the story, I'm thinking, and
Speaker 1: you do have a skill, and it comes across in
Speaker 1: the book that you can be critical of people, but
Speaker 1: the way that you talk about people, you tend not
Speaker 1: to make it personal. It's more okay, this is the factual.
Speaker 1: I'm not happy with this, and I think that served
Speaker 1: you well because you've pulled me down a couple of times.
Speaker 1: But I've never taken offense. And I said, I still
Speaker 1: think it's funny, and I'm still embarrassed and annoyed it myself.
Speaker 1: I might have boiled up on the last podcast, but
Speaker 1: those that didn't hear it when I forget which job
Speaker 1: it was on, but I had the cranky hat on
Speaker 1: on Speed Kingdom a staff on demanding staff. You weren't
Speaker 1: giving me enough staff. You're in the Posta's chair in
Speaker 1: the homicide Jason EVAs Luke Rank and you know the
Speaker 1: crew I'm working with, and they will go in and
Speaker 1: tell him, go in and fucking telling him. I said,
Speaker 1: I will. I'm going in the telling him, I'm going
Speaker 1: to demand we get more staff. We can't do this.
Speaker 1: And I walk into your office. They've whipped me up
Speaker 1: into a frenzy. I go in there, you go good
Speaker 1: a Jube's okay? Well, and then I start talking and
Speaker 1: then start talking and talking, and we spoke for about
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes and I walk out, walk back to the
Speaker 1: strike force, and they go, how'd that go? If we
Speaker 1: get more staff? I said, no, it went good. Well
Speaker 1: did you get anything? No? And then I've said to them,
Speaker 1: but I think Nick, as I was walking out, I
Speaker 1: still to this day and embarrassed by that. Nick, I
Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know how you get it.
Speaker 2: I'm negotiator.
Speaker 1: Don't negotiate with my wife.
Speaker 2: Off and says to me, don't negotiate me.
Speaker 1: I know what you're doing one step ahead. But I'm
Speaker 1: telling you I was going in there, going in there,
Speaker 1: cranky at the cranky at the time. Now ask you
Speaker 1: a tough question. You can't avoid this. It's one that
Speaker 1: needs to be asked, and I expect an honest answer
Speaker 1: for you before we wrap up part one. You supervise
Speaker 1: myself and you also supervised Pam Young. Can you tell
Speaker 1: me who you think is the best detective?
Speaker 2: Clearly it's Pam.
Speaker 1: I think you're a coward.
Speaker 2: You're a cowd I think you're both outstanding. I'm not
Speaker 2: saying it because you know you're my mate or she's
Speaker 2: my mate. You both are. But we had you know,
Speaker 2: when I look back on it, Jews, I was the
Speaker 2: commander of the homicide squad for probably four years or so,
Speaker 2: and we had outstanding talented detectives there, including you and
Speaker 2: Pam and many others. So I've been doing it for
Speaker 2: a decade of fifteen years and so on. You know
Speaker 2: all the people, you know. It's just I always feel
Speaker 2: a sense of sadness when I see people move on
Speaker 2: from homicide. But I know you've got to do it,
Speaker 2: but for your career and otherwise, it is one of
Speaker 2: the most important jobs that you can have in policing.
Speaker 2: There is no more serious crime than murder than a
Speaker 2: human being having their life taken, and you need the best. Hopefully,
Speaker 2: to deal with that sort of crime and you're outstanding.
Speaker 1: Thanks.
Speaker 2: She was better.
Speaker 1: They were good times. I just clarify one thing. I
Speaker 1: didn't move on from homicide for my career.
Speaker 2: I got charged.
Speaker 1: Anyway, we'll wrap up, wrap up part one. There's plenty
Speaker 1: more to talk about because your books full of stuff.
Speaker 1: So thank you. Have a short break.
Speaker 2: Thank you,