WEBVTT - Chasing assassins and infiltrating gangs: Nick Kaldas Pt.1

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective see aside of life the average persons never exposed

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<v Speaker 1>to I spent thirty four years as a cop. For

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<v Speaker 1>twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's

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<v Speaker 1>what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking

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<v Speaker 1>the public into the world in which I operated. The

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<v Speaker 1>guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from

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<v Speaker 1>all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,

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<v Speaker 1>just like the people I talk to. Some of the

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<v Speaker 1>content and language might be confronting. That's because no one

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<v Speaker 1>who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join

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<v Speaker 1>me now as I take you into this world. Today

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<v Speaker 1>I spoke to Nick Cawvios. Nick is one of the

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<v Speaker 1>country's most respected law enforcement officers who's a retired New

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<v Speaker 1>South Wales Police Deputy commissioner who's had an incredible international career,

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<v Speaker 1>having worked in homicide, gangs, counter terrorism, negotiators and undercover.

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<v Speaker 1>He's also worked for the UN, which saw him investigating

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<v Speaker 1>the assassination of a former Lebanese prime minister, investigating the

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<v Speaker 1>use of chemical weapons in Syria, rebuilding the Iraq Police Force,

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<v Speaker 1>and most recently chaired the Royal Commission into Defense and

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<v Speaker 1>Veteran Suicide. Today we found out who Nick is as

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<v Speaker 1>a person, talking about the highs and lowers of his

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<v Speaker 1>career and what makes him tick. You can also read

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<v Speaker 1>more about Nick and an exclusive extract from his book

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<v Speaker 1>Behind the Badge in the Saturday and Sunday Telegraph this weekend.

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<v Speaker 1>I always enjoy talking to Nick. He's been a good mate.

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<v Speaker 1>This is our conversation. Last time I had you on

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<v Speaker 1>the podcast, everyone kept talking about how good your voice is.

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<v Speaker 1>So stuff it up a little bit with you taking

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<v Speaker 1>him a job. Anyway, Nick, you speak Arabic, You're born

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<v Speaker 1>in Egypt, and you've got a certain look and swagger

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<v Speaker 1>about you. See why you're used in undercover work. You've

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<v Speaker 1>made reference to some undercover stuff in your book. Tell

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<v Speaker 1>us about your career and undercover.

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<v Speaker 2>I think I really got my start initially, at least

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<v Speaker 2>simply because of my ethnic background and language abilities.

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<v Speaker 1>And you did have that big, big mustache too.

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<v Speaker 2>I did it was it was a beautiful thing. But

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<v Speaker 2>I understand my stuches are coming back to. By the way,

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<v Speaker 2>just say you so prepare yourself. But now I just

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<v Speaker 2>I felt that it was something that was certainly exciting

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<v Speaker 2>for a young detective. But more than that, I think

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<v Speaker 2>you could actually do a lot of good, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>getting drugs off the street or weapons off the street

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<v Speaker 2>and catching really bad people that you might struggle to

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<v Speaker 2>catch any other way. So I was happy, to very

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<v Speaker 2>happy to be to be to be involved in it.

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<v Speaker 2>And as I got more and more into it, I

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<v Speaker 2>think I got better at it obviously, as you do,

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<v Speaker 2>and the sort of targets I was going for you

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<v Speaker 2>rows quite a few levels.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so you think it was important to get that

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<v Speaker 1>expert pearance at the lower level of crime.

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<v Speaker 2>Fortunately I started with a fairly big one, but after.

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<v Speaker 1>That threw you in the deepen.

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<v Speaker 2>It was Yeah, you have to understand in the eighties

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<v Speaker 2>there wasn't that much of a structure in terms of training, accreditation,

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<v Speaker 2>and the deployment practices were a bit at hoc. But

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<v Speaker 2>as we went along, and I say in the book

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<v Speaker 2>that one of my aims, I had some bad experiences

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<v Speaker 2>with people taking contracts on me and so on, and

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't feel I had a lot of support from workmates.

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<v Speaker 2>I did, but not from the organization, and I wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to contribute towards fixing that, and I did that. I've

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<v Speaker 2>got a scholarship and whatever seas how to look at

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<v Speaker 2>how others do things and brought back a bunch of

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<v Speaker 2>ideas and that was my sort of foot in the

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<v Speaker 2>door to recommend some fairly significant changes in terms of

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<v Speaker 2>welfare reassimilation and so on.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, without giving away the methodology of the way

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<v Speaker 1>that the people go undercover. I remember those days and

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<v Speaker 1>it was pretty rough and ready wasn't Oh that's good,

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<v Speaker 1>you've infiltrated the game, but we hadn't come up with

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<v Speaker 1>an extraction plan.

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<v Speaker 2>Nah. Yeah, I've been I hope I've been careful. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think there was any need for me to go

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<v Speaker 2>into methodology or give away any trade secrets. But people

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<v Speaker 2>know that this happens, and I think in some ways

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<v Speaker 2>I hope it said as a turrent for those doing

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<v Speaker 2>bad things, knowing that they can get caught if they're

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<v Speaker 2>doing bad shit.

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<v Speaker 1>We recently had an ATO officer from the United States

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<v Speaker 1>that did a lot of undercover work. And it's a fascinating,

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<v Speaker 1>fascinating world, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I mean, the American environment is quite different. It's

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<v Speaker 2>such a huge country, as we all know. But my

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<v Speaker 2>sense is that nearly every federal agency in the US

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<v Speaker 2>runs its own undercover program and its own tactical teams,

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<v Speaker 2>and everyone carries weapons. It's a different environment. I'm not

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<v Speaker 2>sure if how Australian Tax Office would want to carry

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<v Speaker 2>weapons and go under cover.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I'm not sure how it worked that way. So

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<v Speaker 1>You've had a long, a long career, and I know

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<v Speaker 1>when we were together in the cops, you always said

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<v Speaker 1>to me that, yeah, you think this is the focus

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<v Speaker 1>of the world in the cops, because it's how you police.

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<v Speaker 1>I policed, and we're very much looking in with into

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<v Speaker 1>the organization. You've been out of New South Wales polace

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<v Speaker 1>you're still involved in law enforcement and different aspects. You've

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<v Speaker 1>been out of the New South Wales Police for a

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<v Speaker 1>long time. Does it give you a different perspective on

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<v Speaker 1>the world.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think so. And I think one of the

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<v Speaker 2>realizations that you come to when you leave the police,

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<v Speaker 2>as I'm sure you did, is that there is a

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<v Speaker 2>bigger world out there. I was fortunate and that while

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<v Speaker 2>I was still a police officer, I had two breaks.

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<v Speaker 2>One when I went to Iraq, for a year, and

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<v Speaker 2>then the second one when I went to the Special

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<v Speaker 2>Tribunal for Lebanon to investigate the murders in Lebanon. So

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<v Speaker 2>I had had a bit of a taste of the

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<v Speaker 2>outside world, if you like, and I think I was

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<v Speaker 2>probably reasonably comfortable making the transition after I left the police,

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<v Speaker 2>as some of our sort of mutual friends would probably

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<v Speaker 2>struggle a bit. They hadn't, and especially the guys that

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<v Speaker 2>joined as cadets, who had been there since I was sixteen,

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<v Speaker 2>hadn't really tasted the outside world. I think it's good

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<v Speaker 2>to have life experience before you join, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>it's certainly it's good to realize that there's a bigger

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<v Speaker 2>world out there. It's not the end of the world.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, a wise man and a good friend I won't

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<v Speaker 1>name names, I'm looking at you that did pull me

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<v Speaker 1>aside when I got into trouble with the cops and said, look,

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<v Speaker 1>Dube's there is a big world out there. Don't panic.

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<v Speaker 1>You'll find purpose and you'll find direction. And it was

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<v Speaker 1>good advice at the time because I was a little

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<v Speaker 1>bit What am I going to do now? But let's

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<v Speaker 1>talk about your career. It's been a fascinating career and

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<v Speaker 1>I remember when you were in the New South Wales

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<v Speaker 1>place you'd often disappear. We'd say, where's Nick and he's

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<v Speaker 1>over working in the Middle East, or he's doing that

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<v Speaker 1>or doing this.

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<v Speaker 2>For it only happened twice, actually, I think the other

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<v Speaker 2>times I was probably dragged into secret hearings Police Integrity Commission.

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<v Speaker 1>We'll talk about that a little bit later. But you

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<v Speaker 1>had some amazing, amazing work that you did whilst you're

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<v Speaker 1>still in the New South Wales Police. Tell us a

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<v Speaker 1>little bit. And I know we've had you on the

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<v Speaker 1>podcast before, but that we only scraped the surface. Now

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<v Speaker 1>you did get I think three sessions. There was two

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<v Speaker 1>people that pipped you. Pam Young she got four. We'll

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<v Speaker 1>talk about that. I know that made you a bit

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<v Speaker 1>crank at Pam understandably, and the other one was Graham Henry,

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<v Speaker 1>but we probably won't say too much about that. But

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<v Speaker 1>just tell us a little bit when you were in

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<v Speaker 1>the New South Wales Police, some of the things that

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<v Speaker 1>you were doing outside of the New South Wales Police.

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<v Speaker 2>Yep. Sure, and again I mean this is in the book,

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<v Speaker 2>but I did have to be a little bit careful.

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<v Speaker 2>You can't go into too much detail about some of

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<v Speaker 2>the issues. But in two thousand and four I was

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<v Speaker 2>requested by the federal government. There's a request through colleagues

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<v Speaker 2>on you and US law enforcement to join them in

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<v Speaker 2>Iraq as part of the Coalition Authority College and Provisional

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<v Speaker 2>Authority rebuilding the Iraqi National Police and other law enforcement

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<v Speaker 2>agencies there. I am fluent in Arabic and I'm reasonably

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<v Speaker 2>comfortable in the Middle East, have been in a few

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<v Speaker 2>conflex zams I lived through the Sixth Day War and

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<v Speaker 2>a few other things, so I was happy to do it.

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<v Speaker 2>I took a leave of absence and I was gone

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<v Speaker 2>for about nine nine ten months from New Southwest Police,

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<v Speaker 2>seconded to the Federal government and deployed under the auspicess

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<v Speaker 2>of IS. I think we did some good things rebuilding

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<v Speaker 2>the Iraqi Police. I'm not going to tell you it

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<v Speaker 2>was a total success, but certainly there were a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of good people there trying very hard. And then in

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<v Speaker 2>two thousand and nine, again I was selected by the

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<v Speaker 2>United Nations to head up the investigations into the assassination

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<v Speaker 2>of the former Prime Minister Hariri and a number of

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<v Speaker 2>other murders that were related. So again I took a

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<v Speaker 2>leave of absence. By those stage, I was deputy commissioner,

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<v Speaker 2>but I was fortunate the government and the organization said

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<v Speaker 2>they were happy for me to go. I was gone

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<v Speaker 2>for about fifteen months. I think all up and that

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<v Speaker 2>went well. I thought we indiced at five people. Ultimately

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<v Speaker 2>two died and three were convicted in absentia in their absence.

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<v Speaker 2>But I think, as I've often said, it's still worth

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<v Speaker 2>doing even if you haven't physically arrested those people, because

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<v Speaker 2>the assassination has actually stopped after twenty odd in four years.

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<v Speaker 2>There have been a couple in more recent times, but

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<v Speaker 2>certainly the trend has completely changed. Accountability and ending that

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<v Speaker 2>cult of impunity. I thought was quite historic, and I

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<v Speaker 2>was very happy to be a part of that.

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<v Speaker 1>And did the skill set that you took from your

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<v Speaker 1>policing career, did that lend itself well into those environments.

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<v Speaker 2>It's basically murder investigations. I know there was a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of politics in the motive and so on. But one

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<v Speaker 2>of the things I hope I did when I got

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<v Speaker 2>there is I asked the team in fact refocused the

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<v Speaker 2>investigation to some extent to focus on the basic building

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<v Speaker 2>blocks of a murder investigation, the crime scene, the forensic

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<v Speaker 2>and ballistic evin and witnesses statements, canvassing, forensic evidence generally

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<v Speaker 2>and so on, rather than racing towards a motive and

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<v Speaker 2>a political angle. You had to do that later on,

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<v Speaker 2>but it wasn't going to solve anything for us. It

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't going to be what seves the murder. We had

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<v Speaker 2>to prove it in a proper court with procedural fairness,

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<v Speaker 2>and we did that.

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<v Speaker 1>That's a voice or reason that's often needed in a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide investigation, isn't it. And we were trained in the

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<v Speaker 1>same lineage Hofside. It's all all the white noise on

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<v Speaker 1>the outside, and you can get lost in that coming

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<v Speaker 1>up with theories, but that comes down to gathering the

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<v Speaker 1>evidence and just focusing and doing the basics.

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<v Speaker 2>Is yeah, exactly. You know, you're absolutely right. It's like

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<v Speaker 2>a building block. If you don't get the basics right,

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<v Speaker 2>nothing else will work later on. But as you know, Gary,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a lot of would be experts out there that

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<v Speaker 2>haven't really done a lot of this stuff who talk

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<v Speaker 2>about it because they feel that they know the answers,

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<v Speaker 2>and more often than not, they don't.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a little bit more complex, isn't it? For sure

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<v Speaker 1>you've actually seen it, But I think it's interesting and

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<v Speaker 1>I fully understand what you're saying that you go over

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<v Speaker 1>there and just wind it back a little bit. Let's

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<v Speaker 1>just focus on the important things and you build it that.

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<v Speaker 1>That's the why homicides are generally solved, just building on

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<v Speaker 1>the little pieces, putting it all together. Okay, the book

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<v Speaker 1>behind the Badge, congratulations.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>I've read it cover the cover and I've got to

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<v Speaker 1>say I like it. I enjoyed it.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Matt.

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<v Speaker 1>And I know we had discussions before you were writing

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<v Speaker 1>it and looking at it. How did you find it personally?

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<v Speaker 1>Writing it torturous?

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<v Speaker 2>Tell me that. I mean, I need to say you

0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:45.959
<v Speaker 2>actually one of the people who inspired me. He said

0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:47.600
<v Speaker 2>to me, you can do this, you should do this.

0:11:49.120 --> 0:11:52.280
<v Speaker 2>It's been probably three years, I think with mind writer

0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:54.600
<v Speaker 2>Roger Joyce, who did you know. He's a great guy,

0:11:55.720 --> 0:11:57.240
<v Speaker 2>and I don't know. We used to do about two

0:11:57.240 --> 0:11:59.480
<v Speaker 2>to two and a half hourly sessions. We must have

0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:02.440
<v Speaker 2>done thirty over the three year period. And I was

0:12:02.520 --> 0:12:04.839
<v Speaker 2>chairing the Royal Commission at the time, so I could

0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:06.360
<v Speaker 2>only have to do it sort of at nights and

0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:09.080
<v Speaker 2>weekends and what have you. And Roger was great with

0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:12.000
<v Speaker 2>fitting in with me with all of that. The bottom

0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:15.640
<v Speaker 2>line is, I'd find it now quite daunting that the

0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:18.760
<v Speaker 2>book is out and you know everyone's going to read everything,

0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:21.800
<v Speaker 2>and I'm worried. You know, I hope I've got everything right.

0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:24.640
<v Speaker 2>I hope I didn't say anything that would offend people unnecessarily.

0:12:25.920 --> 0:12:29.640
<v Speaker 2>But it's been quite an experience. I don't know if

0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:31.400
<v Speaker 2>I told you go, but apart from yourself, and have

0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:33.360
<v Speaker 2>a couple of other friends who have written books who

0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:35.280
<v Speaker 2>have said to me, you know, you should do this

0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:37.679
<v Speaker 2>for your family and your kids and your legacy if

0:12:37.679 --> 0:12:42.079
<v Speaker 2>you like, rather than for yourself. There's a fellow called

0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:46.240
<v Speaker 2>Bob bear Ba who's a former Cyia agent who did

0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:49.880
<v Speaker 2>write his life story and dedicated his first book. He's

0:12:49.920 --> 0:12:52.600
<v Speaker 2>written many now, but he dedicated his first book to

0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:54.560
<v Speaker 2>his kids, and he said, I hope this guest some

0:12:54.600 --> 0:12:57.559
<v Speaker 2>way towards explaining where the hell I was. And I

0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:00.360
<v Speaker 2>actually discussed it with him many years a game and

0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:02.920
<v Speaker 2>he said to me, it was really about that legacy

0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.240
<v Speaker 2>for your family and your kids as well as yourself.

0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:10.160
<v Speaker 2>But I'm happy there's some sort of record now where

0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:12.360
<v Speaker 2>I've been and what I've done, and our journey from

0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:17.240
<v Speaker 2>Egypt to Sydney and so on. But it is daunting.

0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:20.520
<v Speaker 1>But okay, there's a couple of things to unpack there.

0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.880
<v Speaker 1>But what you're saying too, and it makes me reflect

0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:27.160
<v Speaker 1>even when you say it in this environment, that all

0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:31.320
<v Speaker 1>the sacrifices you make it working in the sharp end

0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:34.080
<v Speaker 1>of police in law enforcement like you did, and where

0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:37.520
<v Speaker 1>you're not at the family Christmas party, you're not here

0:13:37.640 --> 0:13:40.240
<v Speaker 1>or you've been called out, you're distracted, it does take

0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:42.640
<v Speaker 1>a toll on the people around you. So a book

0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:45.839
<v Speaker 1>is I'd like to be able to sit down that

0:13:46.320 --> 0:13:48.679
<v Speaker 1>and read, Okay, that's where my father was or that's

0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:49.600
<v Speaker 1>where my mate was.

0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:52.400
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean I would hope also that my grandkids

0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:55.360
<v Speaker 2>and great grandkids might get to read it. It's a

0:13:55.360 --> 0:13:56.800
<v Speaker 2>bit of a legacy for us, I think for the

0:13:56.840 --> 0:13:59.319
<v Speaker 2>Egyptian community generally, the Arabic community and all that. That's

0:13:59.360 --> 0:14:02.079
<v Speaker 2>a part of it is that many people in the

0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:05.240
<v Speaker 2>various communities encourage me to do this because they feel

0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:07.040
<v Speaker 2>it's sort of a I won't say it's a good

0:14:07.040 --> 0:14:10.560
<v Speaker 2>news story, but I hope it's somewhat inspirational. I hope

0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:12.360
<v Speaker 2>I'm a little bit of a role model for some

0:14:12.400 --> 0:14:15.280
<v Speaker 2>of the migrant communities. You know, we got it in

0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:17.560
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty nine without much in our pocket. We had

0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:21.360
<v Speaker 2>big dreams in our eyes, and we've done reasonably well.

0:14:21.960 --> 0:14:24.160
<v Speaker 2>And if I can do it, one of the messages

0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:25.280
<v Speaker 2>is anyone can do it.

0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:28.760
<v Speaker 1>You jump out of the pages in the book, which

0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:30.440
<v Speaker 1>I think is always a good read. I know you

0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.720
<v Speaker 1>well and reading the book, it certainly is the neck

0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:36.920
<v Speaker 1>that I know you don't pull any punches, but that's

0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:39.600
<v Speaker 1>pretty much the way you've gone about your career. You

0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:41.600
<v Speaker 1>knew where you stood, and that sort of comes out

0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:42.040
<v Speaker 1>in the book.

0:14:42.360 --> 0:14:44.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I hope. So. I mean, I didn't set out

0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:47.800
<v Speaker 2>to offend or upset anyone, but I said what I thought,

0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:53.920
<v Speaker 2>and I do talk about the amount of scrutiny and

0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:58.040
<v Speaker 2>that police today are under and the fact that those

0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:03.080
<v Speaker 2>who oversite them, often bodies, generally super judicial bodies, have

0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:07.160
<v Speaker 2>an enormous amount of power, and with that there should

0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:10.920
<v Speaker 2>come an enormous amount of accountability, but that's not always

0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:11.360
<v Speaker 2>the case.

0:15:12.760 --> 0:15:17.920
<v Speaker 1>On the front page of the cover a little mantra

0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:22.440
<v Speaker 1>that I think sets it well. Do good work, Live

0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:25.640
<v Speaker 1>by your beliefs and fear no one that there are

0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:28.560
<v Speaker 1>three strong statements are on the front cover of your book.

0:15:28.600 --> 0:15:30.000
<v Speaker 1>Is that how you went about your career?

0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.400
<v Speaker 2>I hope, I hope so, particularly the last one. I mean,

0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:35.280
<v Speaker 2>I would hope in all the commands I've been in,

0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:36.840
<v Speaker 2>and the people I've led and the people who have

0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:39.560
<v Speaker 2>worked with me, we've never bent over because someone tried

0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.440
<v Speaker 2>to stand over us, to go on a particular direction,

0:15:42.560 --> 0:15:44.200
<v Speaker 2>or to do something that we don't think was right.

0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:46.280
<v Speaker 2>I think you've been the same, and I'm really proud

0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:48.760
<v Speaker 2>of you for doing that. Gary. But I think if

0:15:48.800 --> 0:15:52.560
<v Speaker 2>you lose that, all is lost. And I used to

0:15:52.640 --> 0:15:56.120
<v Speaker 2>tell people kids who are graduating from a police academy,

0:15:56.480 --> 0:15:58.880
<v Speaker 2>nobody can take your integrity from you. You have to

0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:01.800
<v Speaker 2>give it up. It's really your call what you do

0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:05.160
<v Speaker 2>and how you act, and then you're accountable for what

0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:05.880
<v Speaker 2>you've done.

0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:08.640
<v Speaker 1>Well, that's a good way and good advice. And I

0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.720
<v Speaker 1>also hope with a book like this it might inspire

0:16:11.720 --> 0:16:15.160
<v Speaker 1>people look at the life that you have lived. I'm

0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:18.280
<v Speaker 1>sure in your wildest days when you walked into the academy,

0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:21.200
<v Speaker 1>you didn't think you'd have the career that you've had.

0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:25.840
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely not. I actually am not ambitious. I know I've

0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.360
<v Speaker 2>got the deputy commissioner, but I didn't sit and think, jeez,

0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:30.000
<v Speaker 2>I want to get promoted. I want to get promoted,

0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:34.200
<v Speaker 2>and you and I know people who have. But I

0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:36.040
<v Speaker 2>don't know. Things just happened. I was in the right

0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:38.560
<v Speaker 2>place at the right time often, or there was something

0:16:38.560 --> 0:16:41.480
<v Speaker 2>that I felt I was particularly suited to, and then

0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:44.080
<v Speaker 2>when it came up, I threw Manhatt in the ring

0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:45.280
<v Speaker 2>and was able to succeed.

0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:49.200
<v Speaker 1>I think the system works when someone just can concentrate

0:16:49.240 --> 0:16:52.320
<v Speaker 1>on doing their work and get rewarded, you know, without

0:16:53.160 --> 0:16:55.680
<v Speaker 1>we know good cops, bad cops, all sorts of cops.

0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:59.520
<v Speaker 1>But I say publicly that where people are trying to

0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:03.800
<v Speaker 1>use the career in the police for their own personal gain,

0:17:04.320 --> 0:17:07.720
<v Speaker 1>I'm not talking corruption, although it's probably pretty close to

0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:10.320
<v Speaker 1>corruption where the main focus is how I can get

0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:12.920
<v Speaker 1>promoted rather than what you're there to do the work.

0:17:13.160 --> 0:17:15.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, definitely. I mean I used to when I got

0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:17.399
<v Speaker 2>to the senior ranks and I had to sort of

0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:19.880
<v Speaker 2>sit in judgment on others and whether they get promoted

0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:23.720
<v Speaker 2>or not. I like seeing guys and girls who are

0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.719
<v Speaker 2>focused on the job. They've got and do it well

0:17:26.760 --> 0:17:29.800
<v Speaker 2>without thinking about the next step, as you say, rather

0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:32.880
<v Speaker 2>than those who get somewhere and they're already thinking about

0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:34.600
<v Speaker 2>the next step and not focused on what they've got

0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:36.359
<v Speaker 2>in front of them. You've got to make your mark

0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:38.600
<v Speaker 2>everywhere you've been. You know, three or four years I

0:17:38.600 --> 0:17:42.159
<v Speaker 2>think is good. And this is some extenuating circumstances. But

0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:43.840
<v Speaker 2>three or four years and the one spot is good.

0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:45.920
<v Speaker 2>You make your mark, do your best, and then you

0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:46.600
<v Speaker 2>can look around.

0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:49.399
<v Speaker 1>How do you think your upbringing shaped you in the

0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:52.280
<v Speaker 1>way that you did? Police in there? Can you tell

0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.520
<v Speaker 1>listeners a little bit about your upbringing, because it's unique

0:17:55.520 --> 0:17:56.120
<v Speaker 1>in itself.

0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.199
<v Speaker 2>Sure, I do go over it in the book. I

0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.399
<v Speaker 2>hope I that sort of put anyone to sleep. But

0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:05.000
<v Speaker 2>I was born and brought up. I'm Coptic Orthodox Egyptian

0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:08.600
<v Speaker 2>Christian Egyptian Christian Arab and we were from the south

0:18:08.680 --> 0:18:12.040
<v Speaker 2>far south, a place called us Jult, and they are

0:18:12.080 --> 0:18:15.200
<v Speaker 2>fairly traditional and conservative they're but we moved from there

0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.960
<v Speaker 2>to Cairo, and then from Cairo we migrated to Australia

0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:23.119
<v Speaker 2>when I was about twelve in nineteen sixty nine. I

0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:25.760
<v Speaker 2>think my upbringing has had a huge impact. Obviously, on

0:18:26.040 --> 0:18:28.760
<v Speaker 2>who I am, on what I've done, and I think

0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:30.760
<v Speaker 2>it probably applies to mass people. You're a product of

0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:37.680
<v Speaker 2>your environment. Our family's fairly reasonably religious. We're Christians, my brothers.

0:18:38.320 --> 0:18:40.280
<v Speaker 2>My brother was a medical doctor, but he gave up

0:18:40.280 --> 0:18:43.840
<v Speaker 2>medicine and went into the priesthood the Coptic Orthodox Church,

0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:49.600
<v Speaker 2>and he's still there. And I guess the core values

0:18:49.680 --> 0:18:53.000
<v Speaker 2>that I hope that I hold and adhere to in

0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:55.720
<v Speaker 2>fairness to others. I used to sell superintendents when people

0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.160
<v Speaker 2>got promoted to superintendent. I used to try and see

0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:01.399
<v Speaker 2>them before they got the paperwork. All I'll ask of

0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:03.399
<v Speaker 2>you is that you treat others the way you'd like

0:19:03.480 --> 0:19:07.959
<v Speaker 2>to be treated. So that really basic principle of fairness,

0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:10.520
<v Speaker 2>how you treat people how you'd like to be treated.

0:19:10.920 --> 0:19:13.119
<v Speaker 2>And I'd say to them that if I saw that

0:19:13.200 --> 0:19:18.240
<v Speaker 2>not happening, you'll hear from me. By and large, people

0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:20.639
<v Speaker 2>were good with that. But I think these sort of

0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:25.719
<v Speaker 2>values about doing good, working hard, being fair to others,

0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.920
<v Speaker 2>and not getting a big head about where you are

0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:33.800
<v Speaker 2>and what you've achieved and what rank or position you hold.

0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:36.520
<v Speaker 2>I think these are really important to me, and they

0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:40.600
<v Speaker 2>all come directly out of my childhood. My father, as

0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:43.320
<v Speaker 2>I mentioned in the book, was a weightlifter, and he

0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:46.399
<v Speaker 2>had massive, big arms and legs and what have you.

0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.080
<v Speaker 2>And he was a little bit shorter than me, but

0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:52.440
<v Speaker 2>he's certainly chunkier, and he just I think, his whole

0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:55.680
<v Speaker 2>life if he'd no man, And I hope I followed that.

0:19:55.720 --> 0:20:00.520
<v Speaker 2>He certainly didn't change his views or bend in some

0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:03.480
<v Speaker 2>really significant way just to please someone else, or was

0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:06.840
<v Speaker 2>because someone's intimidated him, because he forgive the language, but

0:20:07.040 --> 0:20:08.560
<v Speaker 2>he never took any shit from anyone.

0:20:09.359 --> 0:20:11.480
<v Speaker 1>And you're going to get that in policing, aren't you,

0:20:11.600 --> 0:20:14.359
<v Speaker 1>Even from at any rank. You're going to have those

0:20:15.000 --> 0:20:18.679
<v Speaker 1>moral dilemmas and ethical dilemmas in policing and standing up

0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:22.160
<v Speaker 1>for what's right or wrong and what you believe. What's

0:20:22.160 --> 0:20:23.040
<v Speaker 1>the secret to that?

0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:28.919
<v Speaker 2>Like, I guess I've been blessed in a number of ways,

0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:30.679
<v Speaker 2>but one of them is having the support of my

0:20:30.760 --> 0:20:36.840
<v Speaker 2>family and the not just the support, but the fact

0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:39.000
<v Speaker 2>that they validate I guess where I'm heading and what

0:20:39.080 --> 0:20:41.919
<v Speaker 2>I'm doing, And I think that's really important, having a

0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:44.080
<v Speaker 2>sort of support network around it. And the second thing

0:20:44.160 --> 0:20:46.440
<v Speaker 2>is with my friends and colleagues that I've had, including yourself,

0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:50.000
<v Speaker 2>over the years, who have basically validated again what I'm

0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:52.320
<v Speaker 2>doing and what I'm heading, and I count I've always

0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:54.320
<v Speaker 2>counted on those around me to say, hang on a minute,

0:20:54.359 --> 0:20:55.680
<v Speaker 2>you may have got this wrong. You want to look

0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:58.320
<v Speaker 2>at it again. I will always listen to that. And

0:20:58.440 --> 0:21:01.200
<v Speaker 2>I've had staff office as they call them, staff officer

0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:04.800
<v Speaker 2>or achieve your staff as someone who really runs your

0:21:04.880 --> 0:21:07.800
<v Speaker 2>office and is your right hand person man or woman.

0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:10.280
<v Speaker 2>And I had that in the police for many years,

0:21:10.280 --> 0:21:12.000
<v Speaker 2>and I had it overseas as well in the various

0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:14.600
<v Speaker 2>roles I've had. It's a really important role. But it's again,

0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:16.480
<v Speaker 2>it's someone who's a bit of a sounding board, who's

0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:18.960
<v Speaker 2>not you, and who can speak to you honestly behind

0:21:19.000 --> 0:21:21.240
<v Speaker 2>class doors about whether you've run off the rails, whether

0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:24.520
<v Speaker 2>you've done something it's not going well, and then you,

0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:27.320
<v Speaker 2>hopefully you listen and you fix it. I've always told

0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:29.560
<v Speaker 2>those who worked around me, is you need to give

0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:31.760
<v Speaker 2>it that't sugar cat, It just tell me what's really

0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:35.719
<v Speaker 2>going on. I've seen other leaders who pat it on

0:21:35.720 --> 0:21:38.640
<v Speaker 2>the back by their staff officers and staff when everybody

0:21:38.680 --> 0:21:41.520
<v Speaker 2>knows they're not going well. It's no who's hiding it.

0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:44.360
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's no use hiding the truth from them,

0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:47.120
<v Speaker 2>because sooner or later it leads you down a completely

0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:47.680
<v Speaker 2>wrong track.

0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:51.280
<v Speaker 1>Well, it's that if the fable of the Emperor's new

0:21:51.320 --> 0:21:54.040
<v Speaker 1>Clothes and everyone understanding, oh, you look great in that,

0:21:54.160 --> 0:21:58.399
<v Speaker 1>and yeah, certainly, and yeah, I've been fortunate enough to

0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:02.480
<v Speaker 1>work under the commands. You're the commander at homicide and

0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:06.600
<v Speaker 1>other areas, and you always knew where you stood with

0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:09.600
<v Speaker 1>you and I did like the fact, like there's some

0:22:09.600 --> 0:22:11.280
<v Speaker 1>people would go in there and you know what the

0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:14.560
<v Speaker 1>decision is going to be, you would at least give

0:22:14.600 --> 0:22:17.119
<v Speaker 1>me your ear to hear what I've got to say.

0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:19.919
<v Speaker 1>You might agree or might not agree, but it's a

0:22:19.920 --> 0:22:20.800
<v Speaker 1>good way of leading.

0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:24.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think so. I think so. I actually appreciate

0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:26.800
<v Speaker 2>that approach and other agencies as well. I do talk

0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:28.679
<v Speaker 2>a little bit in the book about the Director of

0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:32.280
<v Speaker 2>Public Prosecution. It's a really important office. Nick Cowdrey held

0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:35.280
<v Speaker 2>that position for many years. But here was someone if

0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:37.879
<v Speaker 2>he made a decision that we didn't agree with and

0:22:38.080 --> 0:22:40.920
<v Speaker 2>we sought an audience to explain our thoughts, he would

0:22:40.920 --> 0:22:43.399
<v Speaker 2>always make that happen. Not necessarily with him personally, but

0:22:43.640 --> 0:22:45.720
<v Speaker 2>he would always make sure that you've got a hearing

0:22:46.400 --> 0:22:48.479
<v Speaker 2>in writing or in person, or whatever you wanted to do.

0:22:48.800 --> 0:22:51.399
<v Speaker 2>I think it's just really important to be fair to people.

0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:53.960
<v Speaker 2>If they're disagreeing with you and they think they have

0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:55.560
<v Speaker 2>a point of view that you should hear before you

0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:58.800
<v Speaker 2>make a decision that affects them. In any walk of

0:22:58.840 --> 0:23:02.440
<v Speaker 2>life or any walk of life, it's important.

0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:07.080
<v Speaker 1>Holds you in good stead. Let's I want to read

0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:09.640
<v Speaker 1>an extract out from the book, and it's just it's

0:23:10.920 --> 0:23:13.680
<v Speaker 1>you explain it because it's fascinating. I love the description

0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:16.400
<v Speaker 1>of it. I'll try to do it justice reading it out.

0:23:16.440 --> 0:23:18.240
<v Speaker 1>So this is an extract from your book, and I

0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:22.640
<v Speaker 1>want you to explain the situation. Smoke from the big,

0:23:22.680 --> 0:23:26.520
<v Speaker 1>expensive colhebe cigars curled in the air around us. I

0:23:26.560 --> 0:23:30.680
<v Speaker 1>sunk deep into a luxurious lounge, and the only thing

0:23:30.720 --> 0:23:32.960
<v Speaker 1>between me and one of the most feared men in

0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:35.560
<v Speaker 1>the Middle East was an elegant coffee table laden with

0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:39.840
<v Speaker 1>French cakes, tiny cups of Arab coffee, and a massive astre.

0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:43.040
<v Speaker 1>My companion was a man so powerful he could make

0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:46.600
<v Speaker 1>people disappear in the heartbeat, including me, if he felt

0:23:46.640 --> 0:23:50.360
<v Speaker 1>like it. And I was on his turf. You got

0:23:50.359 --> 0:23:54.240
<v Speaker 1>my attention, Nick, tell us what's what that is about.

0:23:54.280 --> 0:23:56.560
<v Speaker 1>That's an extract from the book Behind the Badge.

0:23:56.560 --> 0:24:00.200
<v Speaker 2>Right, So, there's a probably a chapter or two in

0:24:00.560 --> 0:24:03.440
<v Speaker 2>the book about my role as the Director of Oversight

0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:06.199
<v Speaker 2>for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. Essentially, I

0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:08.760
<v Speaker 2>was like the head of Internal Affairs. UNU is an

0:24:08.800 --> 0:24:11.439
<v Speaker 2>agency that handles all the issues to do with the

0:24:11.440 --> 0:24:15.480
<v Speaker 2>Palestine refugees, which is very topical at the moment. Thirty

0:24:15.520 --> 0:24:19.720
<v Speaker 2>thousand plus staff, a budget of two plus billion US

0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:23.119
<v Speaker 2>a year in five countries where the refugees are located,

0:24:23.720 --> 0:24:27.359
<v Speaker 2>five locations Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Gaza and the West Bank,

0:24:27.680 --> 0:24:30.000
<v Speaker 2>and we had offices and staff in all five areas.

0:24:31.119 --> 0:24:33.359
<v Speaker 2>I had four departments, Sorry to ramble a bit that

0:24:33.400 --> 0:24:35.840
<v Speaker 2>I had four departments, and Investigations being one of the

0:24:35.840 --> 0:24:40.480
<v Speaker 2>main ones, and then Audits evaluation. The un evaluates every

0:24:40.520 --> 0:24:43.240
<v Speaker 2>program to see if it's working or not. And then

0:24:43.240 --> 0:24:47.560
<v Speaker 2>the Ethics division. So wherever there were complaints about anything

0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:51.200
<v Speaker 2>in process or even promotions, for instance, within the agency,

0:24:52.119 --> 0:24:54.960
<v Speaker 2>we would investigate those. We had a whole lot of

0:24:55.040 --> 0:24:57.439
<v Speaker 2>work to be done. In the Syrian office in Damascus,

0:24:57.920 --> 0:25:03.000
<v Speaker 2>my investigators, in particular being refused visas to go into Syria. I,

0:25:03.160 --> 0:25:06.720
<v Speaker 2>as the leader, had to find a way to change

0:25:06.760 --> 0:25:08.879
<v Speaker 2>that so that we did get I managed to get.

0:25:08.960 --> 0:25:10.879
<v Speaker 2>I used to get my visas all the time. I

0:25:10.920 --> 0:25:13.720
<v Speaker 2>need to say we traveled on diplomatic passports with the

0:25:13.800 --> 0:25:17.520
<v Speaker 2>United Nations. Theoretically you shouldn't need a visa to go anywhere,

0:25:17.640 --> 0:25:19.760
<v Speaker 2>but the two countries that insisted on a visa were

0:25:19.840 --> 0:25:24.320
<v Speaker 2>Israel and Syria. They're the ones were affect that affected us.

0:25:24.960 --> 0:25:28.040
<v Speaker 2>So Syria, I had to find a way to reach

0:25:28.119 --> 0:25:31.440
<v Speaker 2>the Syrian government to allow my people to be able

0:25:31.480 --> 0:25:33.120
<v Speaker 2>to come in and out so they can carry out

0:25:33.160 --> 0:25:37.560
<v Speaker 2>these really important investigations. And those investigations are particularly important

0:25:37.680 --> 0:25:41.960
<v Speaker 2>to reassure donor countries. Hundreds of millions of dollars are involved.

0:25:42.280 --> 0:25:43.879
<v Speaker 2>They need to make sure that they need to be

0:25:44.040 --> 0:25:47.119
<v Speaker 2>assured that everything's on track, there's no corruption and so on,

0:25:47.200 --> 0:25:49.920
<v Speaker 2>which I think buy in large was the case. So

0:25:50.240 --> 0:25:53.520
<v Speaker 2>I tapped into an Egyptian fellow on you who was

0:25:53.560 --> 0:25:57.680
<v Speaker 2>a very senior person in the United Nations security apparatus.

0:25:58.600 --> 0:26:01.320
<v Speaker 2>I knew he had reach into the Syrian regime because

0:26:01.320 --> 0:26:04.639
<v Speaker 2>of time he had spent there. And we had dinner

0:26:04.640 --> 0:26:06.960
<v Speaker 2>in Amman and Jordan, where I was living at the time,

0:26:07.000 --> 0:26:09.840
<v Speaker 2>with this United Nations posting, and I asked if you

0:26:09.880 --> 0:26:11.800
<v Speaker 2>could introduce me to someone who can get this done.

0:26:11.920 --> 0:26:14.840
<v Speaker 2>And he nominated this fellow the rank of major general,

0:26:14.920 --> 0:26:19.720
<v Speaker 2>and he was essentially the head of a committee that

0:26:19.960 --> 0:26:23.639
<v Speaker 2>had all the intelligence agencies, including the secret police and

0:26:23.680 --> 0:26:28.080
<v Speaker 2>so on in the Assad regime in Syria. I took

0:26:28.080 --> 0:26:29.800
<v Speaker 2>a bit of a gamble. Some people in my office

0:26:29.800 --> 0:26:32.480
<v Speaker 2>said you shouldn't go. Others I didn't tell them because

0:26:32.520 --> 0:26:35.119
<v Speaker 2>I knew it was just going to cause problems even it.

0:26:35.119 --> 0:26:36.720
<v Speaker 1>Shouldn't go for safety reasons.

0:26:36.720 --> 0:26:41.600
<v Speaker 2>Shouldn't safety, Yeah, So we'd fly into a be route

0:26:41.880 --> 0:26:43.760
<v Speaker 2>and then get a car across and get picked up

0:26:43.760 --> 0:26:46.000
<v Speaker 2>by the UN car. It's about two and a half

0:26:46.040 --> 0:26:48.200
<v Speaker 2>hours to Damascus. You can't fly into Damascus in that

0:26:48.320 --> 0:26:51.680
<v Speaker 2>stage because there was a war, and the UN said

0:26:51.680 --> 0:26:55.160
<v Speaker 2>you can't be flying. He's not safe. So we'd drive

0:26:55.200 --> 0:26:57.280
<v Speaker 2>to Damascus and then have our meetings. They used to

0:26:57.280 --> 0:26:59.639
<v Speaker 2>go for four or five or a week, four or

0:26:59.640 --> 0:27:02.000
<v Speaker 2>five days or a week, and then come back to

0:27:02.000 --> 0:27:04.080
<v Speaker 2>beirutin and head back to Jordan where I was living,

0:27:04.080 --> 0:27:08.040
<v Speaker 2>where headquarters was and so I arranged to meet this

0:27:08.080 --> 0:27:11.440
<v Speaker 2>fellow through my contact and I got given the number

0:27:11.440 --> 0:27:13.920
<v Speaker 2>of his chief of staff, who was a major, and

0:27:13.920 --> 0:27:16.719
<v Speaker 2>that's who I dealt with to arrange the meeting. I

0:27:17.359 --> 0:27:19.359
<v Speaker 2>on the day in question, when I decided to go

0:27:19.440 --> 0:27:24.320
<v Speaker 2>and meet him, to ask you, very very nicely, if

0:27:24.320 --> 0:27:26.560
<v Speaker 2>you could make sure that all my stuff got visas.

0:27:27.359 --> 0:27:29.960
<v Speaker 2>I had one security person with me who was armed,

0:27:30.240 --> 0:27:32.040
<v Speaker 2>and I think a car may have been armored at

0:27:32.040 --> 0:27:35.160
<v Speaker 2>the time. It took us a while to find the compound.

0:27:35.440 --> 0:27:38.480
<v Speaker 2>The run as science is nothing and the description I

0:27:38.480 --> 0:27:42.480
<v Speaker 2>had simply wasn't the best. Eventually we found it and

0:27:42.520 --> 0:27:45.120
<v Speaker 2>then we went They were expecting us, and we went

0:27:45.600 --> 0:27:47.879
<v Speaker 2>through a number of checkpoints to get to these marble

0:27:47.920 --> 0:27:50.800
<v Speaker 2>stairs to get that goes into the building, and my

0:27:51.320 --> 0:27:53.960
<v Speaker 2>escort was told to stay in the car outside, and

0:27:54.000 --> 0:27:55.359
<v Speaker 2>I didn't expect him to come in with me, and

0:27:55.359 --> 0:27:57.639
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't want him to coming with me. And then

0:27:57.680 --> 0:27:59.879
<v Speaker 2>I went inside and we went through some more checkpoints

0:28:00.800 --> 0:28:03.600
<v Speaker 2>and I met with the general and his chief of

0:28:03.640 --> 0:28:05.400
<v Speaker 2>staff and a couple of others. I think we're there,

0:28:06.600 --> 0:28:09.520
<v Speaker 2>and I explained what I was there for. Sorry, before

0:28:09.560 --> 0:28:11.520
<v Speaker 2>I talked to him about all of that. And this

0:28:11.560 --> 0:28:13.280
<v Speaker 2>is something for people to bear in mind when they're

0:28:13.320 --> 0:28:15.600
<v Speaker 2>dealing with Arabic community in particular. But I think human

0:28:15.640 --> 0:28:19.080
<v Speaker 2>beings generally, they should make a bit of an effort

0:28:19.080 --> 0:28:22.080
<v Speaker 2>to build some rap or discuss the weather, you know,

0:28:22.160 --> 0:28:24.960
<v Speaker 2>what you do on the weekend, whatever, just something, rather

0:28:25.000 --> 0:28:27.400
<v Speaker 2>than just launching straight into business. Certainly in the Arab world,

0:28:27.520 --> 0:28:29.920
<v Speaker 2>it's rude to come in and just launch into the

0:28:29.960 --> 0:28:32.439
<v Speaker 2>business at hand. So we did that for about fifteen

0:28:32.480 --> 0:28:34.960
<v Speaker 2>twenty minutes, and he was very interested in my background,

0:28:35.119 --> 0:28:37.760
<v Speaker 2>why I spoke Arabic. He picked my accents straight away.

0:28:37.800 --> 0:28:39.840
<v Speaker 2>I think he knew who I was and all that,

0:28:40.120 --> 0:28:42.800
<v Speaker 2>So that's why I was there. And we had a

0:28:42.840 --> 0:28:47.440
<v Speaker 2>really really animated, very positive discussion, and I think he

0:28:47.680 --> 0:28:49.920
<v Speaker 2>liked me. I think I won him over, and he

0:28:50.360 --> 0:28:52.360
<v Speaker 2>in some ways won me over as well. I mean,

0:28:52.400 --> 0:28:54.640
<v Speaker 2>knowing what he's been involved in with the Assid regime,

0:28:55.040 --> 0:28:57.400
<v Speaker 2>and I had conducted the investigation of the use of

0:28:57.440 --> 0:28:59.960
<v Speaker 2>chemical weapons and all these guys were ended up to

0:29:00.080 --> 0:29:03.400
<v Speaker 2>their ear holes. And yet it was impossible, as I

0:29:03.480 --> 0:29:05.360
<v Speaker 2>say in the book, it was impossible to dislike the

0:29:05.400 --> 0:29:10.400
<v Speaker 2>bloke when you met him up front. Up close, and

0:29:10.680 --> 0:29:12.720
<v Speaker 2>he said you'll have what you'll get what you want,

0:29:13.120 --> 0:29:15.960
<v Speaker 2>no problem, and he was true to his word. I

0:29:16.000 --> 0:29:17.360
<v Speaker 2>did make an effort to go and see him a

0:29:17.480 --> 0:29:20.320
<v Speaker 2>number of times after that, just to maintain a relationship.

0:29:20.360 --> 0:29:22.560
<v Speaker 2>He was actually very helpful to us. I think the

0:29:22.600 --> 0:29:23.880
<v Speaker 2>main thing I had to explain to him, and I

0:29:23.920 --> 0:29:25.760
<v Speaker 2>sat and thought about that before I went and saw him,

0:29:25.840 --> 0:29:29.440
<v Speaker 2>is we're not there investigating the Asset regime. It'syria. We're

0:29:29.480 --> 0:29:34.120
<v Speaker 2>like internal affairs. We're investigating United Nations staff who were

0:29:34.120 --> 0:29:36.880
<v Speaker 2>accused or suspected of doing the wrong thing. It's nothing

0:29:36.880 --> 0:29:39.520
<v Speaker 2>to do with the regime. I do say in the

0:29:39.520 --> 0:29:42.080
<v Speaker 2>book also that I wasn't sure if he really knew

0:29:42.120 --> 0:29:44.720
<v Speaker 2>who I was, because I had led the investigation into

0:29:44.760 --> 0:29:48.400
<v Speaker 2>the assassination of the Prime Minister and we charged Hesibela figures,

0:29:48.680 --> 0:29:50.959
<v Speaker 2>and then I did the investigation to chemicalre weapons and

0:29:51.240 --> 0:29:54.000
<v Speaker 2>we wrote the report that blamed the Asset regime. So

0:29:54.240 --> 0:29:57.200
<v Speaker 2>on those two counts he would have been cranky with me,

0:29:57.560 --> 0:29:59.520
<v Speaker 2>but I didn't see any sign of that. And in

0:29:59.600 --> 0:30:01.960
<v Speaker 2>the last time I went to see him to say, look,

0:30:02.080 --> 0:30:05.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm heading back to Australia, and you know he's took

0:30:05.200 --> 0:30:07.400
<v Speaker 2>someone with me to introduce him, to maintain the contact,

0:30:08.000 --> 0:30:10.640
<v Speaker 2>who was a Sudanese fellow who also spake Arabic. I

0:30:10.680 --> 0:30:13.000
<v Speaker 2>still wasn't sure if he knew what I had done

0:30:13.000 --> 0:30:16.280
<v Speaker 2>in the past, and I said something about a report

0:30:16.400 --> 0:30:18.480
<v Speaker 2>being written, and he just looked at me and he said,

0:30:18.480 --> 0:30:20.720
<v Speaker 2>and as people write reports about all sorts of things,

0:30:20.720 --> 0:30:23.120
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't things, it doesn't mean anything. And him and

0:30:23.160 --> 0:30:26.800
<v Speaker 2>his team just laughed, and he knew exactly who I was.

0:30:27.120 --> 0:30:29.400
<v Speaker 2>But it didn't stop him helping me. It didn't stop

0:30:29.440 --> 0:30:33.320
<v Speaker 2>him meeting with me. And certainly nothing bad happened to me,

0:30:33.400 --> 0:30:35.240
<v Speaker 2>and I didn't think it would, Otherwise I wouldn't have

0:30:35.240 --> 0:30:35.560
<v Speaker 2>gone in.

0:30:36.320 --> 0:30:40.200
<v Speaker 1>I suppose the risk there, like UN been a member

0:30:40.200 --> 0:30:42.960
<v Speaker 1>of the UN would offer you some form of protection,

0:30:43.000 --> 0:30:45.840
<v Speaker 1>but it also make you a valuable asset. They wanted

0:30:45.840 --> 0:30:50.240
<v Speaker 1>to look who we've got, We've got Nick possibly.

0:30:49.880 --> 0:30:53.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, but look, I mean, by and large, the regime

0:30:53.720 --> 0:30:58.000
<v Speaker 2>played fair with the United Nations. But look, it was

0:30:58.040 --> 0:31:01.280
<v Speaker 2>a bit of a risk. And after I did it,

0:31:01.320 --> 0:31:04.200
<v Speaker 2>I declared it to those above me, and they weren't

0:31:04.320 --> 0:31:06.240
<v Speaker 2>entirely comfortable with it. But we got the job done.

0:31:06.400 --> 0:31:08.480
<v Speaker 2>We got the visas and our staff was going in.

0:31:08.560 --> 0:31:10.760
<v Speaker 2>We're going in and out with no problem at all,

0:31:10.840 --> 0:31:11.600
<v Speaker 2>in and out of CREA.

0:31:12.600 --> 0:31:14.280
<v Speaker 1>If you can do that, there's probably a couple of

0:31:14.280 --> 0:31:16.440
<v Speaker 1>things I should declare to you when you were my boss.

0:31:16.440 --> 0:31:18.680
<v Speaker 1>So I didn't declare at a time, but we got

0:31:18.680 --> 0:31:19.080
<v Speaker 1>a way over it.

0:31:19.440 --> 0:31:20.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to need a list later too.

0:31:21.200 --> 0:31:25.160
<v Speaker 1>I'll start in alphabetical order. It matters like that. But

0:31:25.560 --> 0:31:27.800
<v Speaker 1>it's interesting, isn't it that the skills that you have

0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:31.440
<v Speaker 1>as a police officer in New South Wales and state police,

0:31:31.760 --> 0:31:34.640
<v Speaker 1>you've taken them on the world stage and it's about communication.

0:31:35.000 --> 0:31:38.920
<v Speaker 1>It's about assessing people and building a rapport, which is

0:31:38.960 --> 0:31:41.240
<v Speaker 1>pretty much the way you've got through your career in

0:31:41.280 --> 0:31:42.040
<v Speaker 1>New South Wales.

0:31:42.440 --> 0:31:44.640
<v Speaker 2>I hope so. Gary. The other thing is, I think

0:31:45.080 --> 0:31:47.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't think I'm that special. I think police generally,

0:31:47.400 --> 0:31:50.840
<v Speaker 2>but particularly detectives, are problem solves. We look at an

0:31:50.840 --> 0:31:52.720
<v Speaker 2>issue and how do you get around it, how do

0:31:52.760 --> 0:31:55.680
<v Speaker 2>you get the job done. It's what cops do every

0:31:55.760 --> 0:31:58.760
<v Speaker 2>day of the week. I simply applied that wherever I went,

0:31:58.840 --> 0:32:01.840
<v Speaker 2>and I was very lucky. We got everywhere I've been,

0:32:01.880 --> 0:32:05.400
<v Speaker 2>we've actually achieved the objectives. So I'm happy about that.

0:32:05.880 --> 0:32:09.440
<v Speaker 1>Okay, Well, the book is a rollercoaster of highs and

0:32:09.480 --> 0:32:14.840
<v Speaker 1>lows and different things. Operation Mascot. Do you want to

0:32:14.880 --> 0:32:15.479
<v Speaker 1>talk about it?

0:32:16.000 --> 0:32:20.600
<v Speaker 2>Not particularly because I think it is important.

0:32:20.800 --> 0:32:23.400
<v Speaker 1>I think it defines you as a person, and I'll

0:32:23.480 --> 0:32:25.320
<v Speaker 1>let you tell the story. But the fact that you

0:32:26.080 --> 0:32:29.560
<v Speaker 1>dug your heels in and kept fighting for not just yourself,

0:32:29.600 --> 0:32:32.560
<v Speaker 1>for everyone because you didn't think it was ethical and

0:32:32.640 --> 0:32:33.720
<v Speaker 1>fair and whatso.

0:32:34.000 --> 0:32:36.040
<v Speaker 2>There it was supposed to be an investigation in the

0:32:36.120 --> 0:32:39.160
<v Speaker 2>corrupt police, and there was a fellow known as M five,

0:32:39.640 --> 0:32:46.080
<v Speaker 2>his identity suppressed, and he for some reason turned if

0:32:46.120 --> 0:32:50.120
<v Speaker 2>you like, and offered or was forced to assist internal

0:32:50.160 --> 0:32:52.160
<v Speaker 2>affairs and the Police Integrity Commission and the new South

0:32:52.200 --> 0:32:55.360
<v Speaker 2>ask Grime Commission for quite some time, perhaps a couple

0:32:55.400 --> 0:32:59.080
<v Speaker 2>of years of wiring up, you know, wearing a bug

0:33:00.160 --> 0:33:05.120
<v Speaker 2>going around the state basically trying to talk to allegedly

0:33:05.200 --> 0:33:09.200
<v Speaker 2>corrupt police to entrap them. Basically I was a subject

0:33:09.240 --> 0:33:10.960
<v Speaker 2>of that. It was one of my complaints at the

0:33:10.960 --> 0:33:15.520
<v Speaker 2>time was that the legislation allowing entrapment agent provocateur if

0:33:15.560 --> 0:33:18.080
<v Speaker 2>you like, states that it can only be as a

0:33:18.120 --> 0:33:20.320
<v Speaker 2>result of a specific complaint, and you can only test

0:33:20.360 --> 0:33:23.000
<v Speaker 2>for that specific evense and you can only do it once.

0:33:24.640 --> 0:33:27.400
<v Speaker 2>I got about half a dozen visits from him. I

0:33:27.440 --> 0:33:30.520
<v Speaker 2>had someone else that had got fifteen visits from him,

0:33:30.640 --> 0:33:33.240
<v Speaker 2>So there were no rules at that stage. Four Internal

0:33:33.240 --> 0:33:34.680
<v Speaker 2>affairs and special crime.

0:33:35.080 --> 0:33:37.160
<v Speaker 1>When did that happen? And how long you're.

0:33:37.120 --> 0:33:38.720
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I don't know exactly when it started, but

0:33:38.720 --> 0:33:41.560
<v Speaker 2>it was certainly the late nineties and into the two thousands,

0:33:41.760 --> 0:33:44.800
<v Speaker 2>so I understand it wrapped up about two thousand and three.

0:33:44.560 --> 0:33:47.600
<v Speaker 1>Perhaps, And would you have touched on in the book?

0:33:47.640 --> 0:33:48.240
<v Speaker 1>So yeah, I do.

0:33:48.480 --> 0:33:52.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. When we began discussions about the book with the

0:33:52.320 --> 0:33:54.840
<v Speaker 2>publishers and the author and so on, I did make

0:33:54.880 --> 0:33:57.160
<v Speaker 2>the point that I didn't want this issue of that

0:33:57.200 --> 0:33:59.959
<v Speaker 2>I'm about to tell you about to be what defines me.

0:34:00.320 --> 0:34:02.760
<v Speaker 2>I hope It's not what definds me. I hope. I'm

0:34:02.800 --> 0:34:05.560
<v Speaker 2>a lot of other things as well. But it did

0:34:05.560 --> 0:34:08.560
<v Speaker 2>play a part obviously in my life. That took a

0:34:08.600 --> 0:34:10.799
<v Speaker 2>couple of years out of my life probably, So I

0:34:10.880 --> 0:34:12.879
<v Speaker 2>was the target of internal affairs for quite some time

0:34:12.920 --> 0:34:15.800
<v Speaker 2>and the Police Integrity Commission in unison. I was probably

0:34:15.840 --> 0:34:19.759
<v Speaker 2>a loud, annoying voice in the background. I did get

0:34:19.800 --> 0:34:21.719
<v Speaker 2>to be on the executive of the police union and

0:34:21.760 --> 0:34:24.600
<v Speaker 2>wearing that hat. I can think of one particular press

0:34:24.600 --> 0:34:26.680
<v Speaker 2>conference where I held the press conference and called them

0:34:26.680 --> 0:34:29.719
<v Speaker 2>out for what they weren't following processes. After the wood

0:34:29.760 --> 0:34:33.480
<v Speaker 2>Raw Commission, the oversight industry, if you like, was completely

0:34:33.520 --> 0:34:35.799
<v Speaker 2>out of control. They could do whatever they wanted and

0:34:35.920 --> 0:34:38.839
<v Speaker 2>justified by the fact that Wood had uncovered corruption, which

0:34:38.840 --> 0:34:42.799
<v Speaker 2>he clearly did. It's made out about that, So then

0:34:42.840 --> 0:34:45.520
<v Speaker 2>I became target one. Ironically, some of the people who

0:34:45.600 --> 0:34:47.880
<v Speaker 2>I now know were investigating me I had made formal

0:34:47.920 --> 0:34:51.759
<v Speaker 2>complaints about, so they had massive conflicts of interest. I

0:34:51.800 --> 0:34:55.000
<v Speaker 2>also now know that I was the subject of eighty

0:34:55.120 --> 0:34:58.680
<v Speaker 2>eight zero bugging warrants, which the Armbudsman at the time,

0:34:59.200 --> 0:35:02.720
<v Speaker 2>Bruce Barber, the in a parliamentary inquiry. So they established

0:35:02.719 --> 0:35:05.920
<v Speaker 2>a parliamentary inquiry. When the affidavits behind the warrants came

0:35:05.960 --> 0:35:08.640
<v Speaker 2>to light, and it showed that most of us were

0:35:08.680 --> 0:35:11.319
<v Speaker 2>not actually were not mentioned in the affidavits, so there

0:35:11.360 --> 0:35:14.680
<v Speaker 2>was no information placed before the judge for him or

0:35:14.719 --> 0:35:18.920
<v Speaker 2>her to sign the warrant to authorize us being buggd.

0:35:19.080 --> 0:35:22.600
<v Speaker 2>It was completely inappropriate and illegal. Now when that came

0:35:22.640 --> 0:35:25.600
<v Speaker 2>to light, there were many, many renewed complaints from one

0:35:25.640 --> 0:35:29.600
<v Speaker 2>hundred and fourteen of us, and so they get Premier

0:35:29.640 --> 0:35:31.600
<v Speaker 2>at the time, Barrier Farrell. He can't give it to

0:35:31.640 --> 0:35:34.080
<v Speaker 2>internal Affairs, they're accused, couldn't give it to the Police

0:35:34.080 --> 0:35:36.560
<v Speaker 2>Integrity Commission, they're accused, couldn't give it to the New

0:35:36.600 --> 0:35:38.880
<v Speaker 2>southmast Crime Commission. They're accused. They were all part of

0:35:38.920 --> 0:35:43.680
<v Speaker 2>this bugging operation Mascot, Operation Mascot Florida. So they gave

0:35:43.680 --> 0:35:46.440
<v Speaker 2>it to the Ombudsman's office. Somewhere along the line they

0:35:46.440 --> 0:35:50.400
<v Speaker 2>added the line in there that he should investigate who

0:35:50.440 --> 0:35:54.480
<v Speaker 2>revealed the wrongdoing. Now, most of us it had been

0:35:54.480 --> 0:35:59.480
<v Speaker 2>declared whistleblowers under the Public Interest Disclosures Legislation. I think

0:35:59.480 --> 0:36:02.600
<v Speaker 2>it's Section nineteen of the Public Interest Disclosures Act says

0:36:02.600 --> 0:36:04.800
<v Speaker 2>that if your problem is not solved within six months,

0:36:05.080 --> 0:36:07.840
<v Speaker 2>you're entitled to it specifies in the Act. In the

0:36:07.920 --> 0:36:11.480
<v Speaker 2>legislation you are entitled to talk to journalists and politicians,

0:36:11.719 --> 0:36:14.319
<v Speaker 2>which is what a lot of us did. Now, the

0:36:14.320 --> 0:36:16.839
<v Speaker 2>body that's meant to protect whistleblowers in New South Wales

0:36:17.000 --> 0:36:20.279
<v Speaker 2>is the Mbuzman's office, and yet that's who grilled all

0:36:20.320 --> 0:36:23.120
<v Speaker 2>of us about who revealed the wrongdoing. And to this

0:36:23.200 --> 0:36:25.520
<v Speaker 2>day I've not been asked one question about the bugging.

0:36:25.560 --> 0:36:28.160
<v Speaker 2>All of us have been asked about is who revealed

0:36:28.160 --> 0:36:31.799
<v Speaker 2>the wrongdoing? So we complained the Office of Bombusman does

0:36:31.840 --> 0:36:35.400
<v Speaker 2>not have an inspector, so he answered to Parliament. So

0:36:35.560 --> 0:36:38.279
<v Speaker 2>we went to Parliament and they held two inquiries into

0:36:38.320 --> 0:36:41.600
<v Speaker 2>what happened. And obviously they're not happy about the body

0:36:41.600 --> 0:36:46.000
<v Speaker 2>that was investigating the wrongdoing also investigating who revealed the wrongdoing.

0:36:46.040 --> 0:36:47.840
<v Speaker 2>You can't do that, and that's where it lays that

0:36:47.840 --> 0:36:50.319
<v Speaker 2>they handed down a report that no one with no

0:36:50.360 --> 0:36:54.480
<v Speaker 2>one agreed with. Certainly all the aggrieved individuals are very

0:36:54.520 --> 0:36:57.000
<v Speaker 2>unhappy because there's been no closure. They never got to

0:36:57.040 --> 0:36:58.560
<v Speaker 2>the bottom of the bugging, and no one's been held

0:36:58.600 --> 0:36:59.160
<v Speaker 2>to account.

0:36:59.360 --> 0:37:02.640
<v Speaker 1>There's been no It was an ugly, ugly time and

0:37:03.000 --> 0:37:05.360
<v Speaker 1>there was a lot of us mentioned mentioned on the

0:37:05.400 --> 0:37:06.000
<v Speaker 1>warrant and.

0:37:06.320 --> 0:37:07.279
<v Speaker 2>Not what were you on there?

0:37:07.360 --> 0:37:11.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I got to the point where I didn't realize

0:37:11.600 --> 0:37:13.120
<v Speaker 1>I was on there, But I was starting to get

0:37:13.200 --> 0:37:15.880
<v Speaker 1>concerned because there's so many what I considered good police

0:37:15.920 --> 0:37:16.600
<v Speaker 1>that were on there.

0:37:16.960 --> 0:37:19.160
<v Speaker 2>A few people have said to me, what's wrong with me?

0:37:19.280 --> 0:37:20.600
<v Speaker 2>How come I didn't make the warrants.

0:37:20.640 --> 0:37:23.480
<v Speaker 1>I think I deserved it. We joke about it. But

0:37:23.600 --> 0:37:26.400
<v Speaker 1>the police corruption, but you made an interesting point in

0:37:26.520 --> 0:37:29.440
<v Speaker 1>your in your book, and we know what happened with

0:37:29.480 --> 0:37:32.880
<v Speaker 1>the Wood Royal Commission and needed to stamp out corruption.

0:37:33.320 --> 0:37:38.560
<v Speaker 1>There's no argument there. Then we have Skia investigating police

0:37:39.080 --> 0:37:42.400
<v Speaker 1>and you made the point that, yeah, they got to

0:37:42.560 --> 0:37:45.480
<v Speaker 1>the police pre royal commission to talk of noble cause

0:37:45.520 --> 0:37:48.280
<v Speaker 1>corruption in that you know, the ends justify the means

0:37:48.280 --> 0:37:52.520
<v Speaker 1>and all that and not being accountable. And it's started

0:37:52.560 --> 0:37:56.040
<v Speaker 1>to evolve that the police, the people that were investigating

0:37:56.080 --> 0:37:59.440
<v Speaker 1>the corrupt police for corrupt behavior, we're think, yeah, not

0:37:59.520 --> 0:38:02.080
<v Speaker 1>with accordance to the rules, that.

0:38:01.560 --> 0:38:05.359
<v Speaker 2>They were bending the rules too. There's not out about that. Yeah, look,

0:38:05.560 --> 0:38:09.239
<v Speaker 2>I just it was one of those things I had

0:38:09.239 --> 0:38:11.680
<v Speaker 2>to really sit and think about how much do I

0:38:11.760 --> 0:38:13.759
<v Speaker 2>want to say do I want to say anything about this?

0:38:13.840 --> 0:38:16.319
<v Speaker 2>And I didn't have it in me to leave it out,

0:38:16.719 --> 0:38:18.880
<v Speaker 2>but I didn't want it to dominate the book, and

0:38:18.880 --> 0:38:20.520
<v Speaker 2>I didn't want anyone to think this is a bit.

0:38:20.560 --> 0:38:22.400
<v Speaker 2>This book is a big winch I hope it's not

0:38:22.440 --> 0:38:22.640
<v Speaker 2>a win.

0:38:22.800 --> 0:38:25.799
<v Speaker 1>Well, I put on record now because I read through

0:38:25.840 --> 0:38:27.759
<v Speaker 1>it and I wondered where you were going with it.

0:38:27.840 --> 0:38:30.080
<v Speaker 1>I didn't see it. There's a wine that was an observation,

0:38:30.360 --> 0:38:33.680
<v Speaker 1>and you paid homage to you're not talking everyone, You're

0:38:33.680 --> 0:38:37.400
<v Speaker 1>talking certain people and making things like there was something

0:38:37.400 --> 0:38:41.279
<v Speaker 1>that really resonated with me that people that were investigating

0:38:41.320 --> 0:38:44.400
<v Speaker 1>weren't working within the restrictions of that we have to

0:38:44.400 --> 0:38:46.880
<v Speaker 1>do as police officers. Even though they were police officers,

0:38:46.920 --> 0:38:48.839
<v Speaker 1>they weren't qualifying for their weapons.

0:38:48.560 --> 0:38:50.000
<v Speaker 2>And all that stuff.

0:38:50.280 --> 0:38:54.560
<v Speaker 1>All that stuff like that about unfairness. So I probably

0:38:54.640 --> 0:38:57.040
<v Speaker 1>zero in in light of what's happened to me, But

0:38:57.120 --> 0:38:59.319
<v Speaker 1>I think it was a balance view, and you were

0:38:59.800 --> 0:39:03.239
<v Speaker 1>very careful not to attack in the individuals on it.

0:39:03.400 --> 0:39:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I really didn't want to set out to

0:39:06.280 --> 0:39:08.360
<v Speaker 2>have it, as we said, to be a big wings.

0:39:08.440 --> 0:39:10.279
<v Speaker 2>I have most of the book, and the tone of

0:39:10.320 --> 0:39:13.319
<v Speaker 2>the book is positive. It's about a happy story where

0:39:13.760 --> 0:39:16.080
<v Speaker 2>I achieved a great deal and started with nothing and

0:39:16.120 --> 0:39:19.040
<v Speaker 2>so on. But I also couldn't leave it out. It

0:39:19.120 --> 0:39:21.560
<v Speaker 2>was the same as actually making the complaints way back.

0:39:22.080 --> 0:39:24.080
<v Speaker 2>I had to make a decision do I sit silently

0:39:24.120 --> 0:39:26.360
<v Speaker 2>and let someone else do their heavy lifting. But I

0:39:26.360 --> 0:39:28.640
<v Speaker 2>mean I had got the deputy commissioner and I had

0:39:28.640 --> 0:39:31.560
<v Speaker 2>at least two friends who really suffered by what happened

0:39:31.880 --> 0:39:35.440
<v Speaker 2>with Operation Mascot in the en ones Month's office. They

0:39:35.480 --> 0:39:37.960
<v Speaker 2>were treated very badly. I didn't have it in me

0:39:38.440 --> 0:39:41.319
<v Speaker 2>to pretend I didn't see what was happening and to

0:39:41.360 --> 0:39:43.839
<v Speaker 2>let someone else do their heavy lifting, right up until

0:39:43.840 --> 0:39:49.200
<v Speaker 2>the day I walked into the parliamentary inquiry and unleashed

0:39:49.320 --> 0:39:52.719
<v Speaker 2>if you like. I found out later that the crime

0:39:52.760 --> 0:39:56.160
<v Speaker 2>squads had basically down tools that day and stayed glued

0:39:56.200 --> 0:39:57.840
<v Speaker 2>to the TV. A lot of them stayed glued to

0:39:57.880 --> 0:39:59.040
<v Speaker 2>the TV and the meal rims.

0:40:00.120 --> 0:40:06.520
<v Speaker 1>We're interested, I'll admit to that.

0:40:03.880 --> 0:40:06.200
<v Speaker 2>But the bottom line is, I think you just have

0:40:06.280 --> 0:40:09.320
<v Speaker 2>to make a decision. I didn't have it in me

0:40:09.400 --> 0:40:11.600
<v Speaker 2>to walk away and just forget, you know, so let

0:40:11.640 --> 0:40:13.839
<v Speaker 2>someone else do the heavy lift. Before I walked into

0:40:13.840 --> 0:40:17.120
<v Speaker 2>that parliamentary inquiry, my lawyer, who I trust with my life,

0:40:17.200 --> 0:40:19.759
<v Speaker 2>said to me, last chance, Is there any chance you

0:40:19.800 --> 0:40:21.319
<v Speaker 2>just let this go and let someone else take the

0:40:21.320 --> 0:40:21.920
<v Speaker 2>heavy lifting?

0:40:22.080 --> 0:40:22.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

0:40:22.360 --> 0:40:24.480
<v Speaker 2>And I just said, I just I really appreciate you're

0:40:24.480 --> 0:40:26.719
<v Speaker 2>worrying about me. I've made my mind up. I mean

0:40:26.760 --> 0:40:29.399
<v Speaker 2>a lot of politicians said to me, if you do this,

0:40:29.480 --> 0:40:32.160
<v Speaker 2>you might feely have done the right thing, but it

0:40:32.239 --> 0:40:34.879
<v Speaker 2>probably means you'll never be a commissioner. I thought about

0:40:34.920 --> 0:40:36.960
<v Speaker 2>it and I made a conscious decision to go ahead.

0:40:37.360 --> 0:40:41.200
<v Speaker 2>You know what, I regret nothing, absolutely nothing. I do

0:40:41.239 --> 0:40:42.360
<v Speaker 2>it all again tomorrow for I had to.

0:40:42.520 --> 0:40:45.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, well, I think it's mark you as a man

0:40:45.719 --> 0:40:50.680
<v Speaker 1>and the officer that you respected for the type of person.

0:40:50.920 --> 0:40:53.600
<v Speaker 1>But what's a personal cost? So I know taking the stand.

0:40:53.640 --> 0:40:56.120
<v Speaker 1>I've taken the stand on different things, and I know

0:40:56.200 --> 0:40:58.640
<v Speaker 1>it comes to the cost. You get, okay, I'm going

0:40:58.680 --> 0:41:01.600
<v Speaker 1>to do this. You're sitting they're thinking do I really

0:41:01.600 --> 0:41:04.800
<v Speaker 1>want this? No? Fuck it? And you go in there

0:41:04.960 --> 0:41:06.719
<v Speaker 1>and you do it. But it takes a cost. What

0:41:07.120 --> 0:41:08.319
<v Speaker 1>sort of costs does it take on you?

0:41:08.680 --> 0:41:10.319
<v Speaker 2>It certainly took the stuffing out of me for a

0:41:10.320 --> 0:41:12.520
<v Speaker 2>few years. I was dragged into hearings at the Police

0:41:12.600 --> 0:41:14.520
<v Speaker 2>Deegorty Commission and all that. I go into all that,

0:41:15.440 --> 0:41:19.640
<v Speaker 2>and on a personal level, I certainly didn't help my marriage.

0:41:19.920 --> 0:41:22.120
<v Speaker 2>And you know, when I went to the parliamentary inquiry

0:41:22.200 --> 0:41:27.120
<v Speaker 2>someone I had remarried my current wife and I don't

0:41:27.160 --> 0:41:30.000
<v Speaker 2>think she'd been through something like this before, but watching

0:41:30.040 --> 0:41:34.840
<v Speaker 2>her husband go through a really horrible time. There's a

0:41:34.880 --> 0:41:37.799
<v Speaker 2>lot of mudfrain in every direction. Thankfully, I don't think

0:41:37.800 --> 0:41:41.040
<v Speaker 2>anything stuck to me. My complaint was that I had

0:41:41.080 --> 0:41:43.640
<v Speaker 2>not been asked one question about what had gone wrong

0:41:44.120 --> 0:41:49.120
<v Speaker 2>with twenty one Supreme Court judges signing warrants where they're

0:41:49.160 --> 0:41:52.560
<v Speaker 2>authorizing the bugging of people even though they're not mentioned

0:41:52.560 --> 0:41:55.480
<v Speaker 2>in the affidavit and there is no information against us.

0:41:56.400 --> 0:42:00.000
<v Speaker 2>If that has happened, then I'm hoping it doesn't still continue.

0:42:01.880 --> 0:42:05.160
<v Speaker 2>Then you know, it's a huge miscarriage of justice. I

0:42:05.239 --> 0:42:09.040
<v Speaker 2>see that whole episode and the inquiry that followed it

0:42:09.080 --> 0:42:11.640
<v Speaker 2>as a dark day, a very dark day for justice

0:42:11.640 --> 0:42:14.360
<v Speaker 2>in the state of New South Wales. It hasn't been righted,

0:42:14.680 --> 0:42:17.880
<v Speaker 2>it's never been sorted. It still hangs like a cloud

0:42:17.960 --> 0:42:21.560
<v Speaker 2>over a whole lot of people, and there's no closure.

0:42:21.640 --> 0:42:22.840
<v Speaker 2>I mean, one of the reasons I took on the

0:42:22.920 --> 0:42:26.080
<v Speaker 2>Lebanon investigations was to try and give people closure. Out

0:42:26.120 --> 0:42:27.960
<v Speaker 2>of all those murders that had happened. You and I

0:42:28.000 --> 0:42:29.800
<v Speaker 2>have worked on homicide, and it's probably one of the

0:42:29.800 --> 0:42:32.839
<v Speaker 2>most satisfying things when you solve the murder and lock

0:42:32.920 --> 0:42:35.440
<v Speaker 2>up the murderer and you can go to the victim's

0:42:35.480 --> 0:42:38.200
<v Speaker 2>family sit down with them and say, this is what happened.

0:42:38.239 --> 0:42:40.920
<v Speaker 2>We now know the truth. At least it won't bring

0:42:41.000 --> 0:42:43.600
<v Speaker 2>them back the person that's been killed, but at least

0:42:43.640 --> 0:42:46.160
<v Speaker 2>you know what happened, and it gives you closure. I

0:42:46.160 --> 0:42:48.440
<v Speaker 2>mean that's a really extreme example, but certainly the bugging

0:42:48.480 --> 0:42:50.000
<v Speaker 2>saga there's been no closure.

0:42:50.280 --> 0:42:52.920
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think the fact that you stand up. Sometimes

0:42:52.920 --> 0:42:56.400
<v Speaker 1>you don't get the exact result you're aiming for. Sometimes

0:42:56.400 --> 0:42:59.040
<v Speaker 1>that doesn't come out. But the fact that you stood

0:42:59.120 --> 0:43:03.760
<v Speaker 1>up and made peopleccountable because it was worrying that people know. Okay,

0:43:04.280 --> 0:43:07.440
<v Speaker 1>we're the major crime detectives. People make allegations against it,

0:43:07.560 --> 0:43:10.040
<v Speaker 1>the nature nature of our work, and then you have

0:43:10.120 --> 0:43:13.400
<v Speaker 1>the people sitting above the judicating on us. Well, they

0:43:13.440 --> 0:43:17.160
<v Speaker 1>should be working by the same rules we're working by.

0:43:17.120 --> 0:43:19.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, procedural fairness should trump all.

0:43:21.040 --> 0:43:23.480
<v Speaker 1>And you can't you can't argue, can't argue with that.

0:43:23.760 --> 0:43:27.440
<v Speaker 1>But I had a laugh, and that there is for

0:43:27.520 --> 0:43:30.880
<v Speaker 1>all the darkness, there's some humor. Then you became the

0:43:31.040 --> 0:43:35.520
<v Speaker 1>deputy commissioner after causing all this kerfuffle, and who do

0:43:35.560 --> 0:43:39.800
<v Speaker 1>you have to oversee the very body of the command

0:43:39.840 --> 0:43:43.719
<v Speaker 1>that you were complaining about tell me about that? How

0:43:43.840 --> 0:43:45.320
<v Speaker 1>that go? That would have been a nice meeting.

0:43:45.360 --> 0:43:49.239
<v Speaker 2>First up, well, I think the Special Crime Unit, which

0:43:49.280 --> 0:43:51.799
<v Speaker 2>really had no reason to exist, it was a mini

0:43:51.840 --> 0:43:56.160
<v Speaker 2>CIB competing with the ouse version of the CIB, come

0:43:56.160 --> 0:43:58.520
<v Speaker 2>an investigation area in crime agencies. And then it becomes

0:43:58.600 --> 0:44:01.840
<v Speaker 2>that Crime Command was simply about individuals who felt this

0:44:02.040 --> 0:44:05.880
<v Speaker 2>was good for their career. That's my view now. I

0:44:05.880 --> 0:44:08.319
<v Speaker 2>think everyone felt that it wasn't working and it needed

0:44:08.360 --> 0:44:12.200
<v Speaker 2>to be disbanded. But I was briefed by the Australian

0:44:12.200 --> 0:44:16.319
<v Speaker 2>Federal Police about their secret investigation into a fellow called

0:44:16.320 --> 0:44:19.160
<v Speaker 2>Marke Standen, who was the Assistant Commissioner in the new

0:44:19.200 --> 0:44:22.640
<v Speaker 2>Southwest Crime Commission, a former Federal police officer and former

0:44:22.680 --> 0:44:26.280
<v Speaker 2>customs agent. I was told obviously it had to remain

0:44:26.719 --> 0:44:29.080
<v Speaker 2>a secret for a little bit longer. I think it

0:44:29.120 --> 0:44:31.560
<v Speaker 2>was six months or so after I was brief that

0:44:31.600 --> 0:44:34.000
<v Speaker 2>he was finally arrested. But he was sort of the

0:44:34.040 --> 0:44:40.200
<v Speaker 2>co leader or co commander really of the Special Crime

0:44:40.239 --> 0:44:45.600
<v Speaker 2>Investigations internal affairs. So when he was arrested and charged

0:44:45.600 --> 0:44:47.719
<v Speaker 2>and he's been convicted, he's done his time and he's out.

0:44:47.760 --> 0:44:51.319
<v Speaker 2>Now I understand he did twenty odd years. By the way,

0:44:52.600 --> 0:44:55.880
<v Speaker 2>when that happened, we then moved towards shutting down the

0:44:55.920 --> 0:44:59.240
<v Speaker 2>special crime function of Internal Affairs and got Internal Affairs

0:44:59.239 --> 0:45:01.800
<v Speaker 2>to go back to being internal affairs. We changed the

0:45:01.920 --> 0:45:05.120
<v Speaker 2>name to Professional Standards, which is a lot more than

0:45:05.200 --> 0:45:09.280
<v Speaker 2>just internal affairs. It's about doing things proactively and having

0:45:09.320 --> 0:45:12.520
<v Speaker 2>processes in place, sps, standard operating procedures in place and

0:45:12.560 --> 0:45:16.640
<v Speaker 2>so on. That helped the cop on the street to

0:45:16.640 --> 0:45:18.919
<v Speaker 2>give them an environment in which they can know what's

0:45:19.000 --> 0:45:21.239
<v Speaker 2>right and what's wrong, and have resources that help them

0:45:21.280 --> 0:45:24.479
<v Speaker 2>make decisions and so on. And I'm really proud Paul

0:45:24.520 --> 0:45:26.680
<v Speaker 2>Carey was the Assistant commission that we promoted to get

0:45:26.719 --> 0:45:29.160
<v Speaker 2>that job done. And he did say to me at

0:45:29.160 --> 0:45:32.200
<v Speaker 2>one stage that the word fairness did not appear in

0:45:32.239 --> 0:45:35.200
<v Speaker 2>any of the literature in the previous regime, and any

0:45:35.200 --> 0:45:37.800
<v Speaker 2>of the standard operating procedures. Fairness just didn't feature.

0:45:38.239 --> 0:45:41.280
<v Speaker 1>It's all my like they were creating a pseudo major crime.

0:45:42.000 --> 0:45:46.040
<v Speaker 2>It was yeah, so yeah, look, but to your point,

0:45:46.400 --> 0:45:48.759
<v Speaker 2>the day I made a decision, so I had been

0:45:48.760 --> 0:45:51.480
<v Speaker 2>promoted to Deputy commission, a specialist operation. I was among

0:45:51.520 --> 0:45:53.759
<v Speaker 2>the many commands I had. I was in charge became

0:45:53.800 --> 0:45:56.359
<v Speaker 2>in charge of internal affairs. I had to go down

0:45:56.560 --> 0:45:59.359
<v Speaker 2>and tell them that we're disbanding the unit and then

0:45:59.400 --> 0:46:01.640
<v Speaker 2>lead to go back into the mainstream and that will

0:46:01.680 --> 0:46:03.439
<v Speaker 2>help them in any way they can, which we did

0:46:03.880 --> 0:46:06.080
<v Speaker 2>and some of them did, and some of them simply

0:46:06.560 --> 0:46:09.600
<v Speaker 2>didn't want to do that. But it was a joke

0:46:09.640 --> 0:46:11.319
<v Speaker 2>at the time that they were. As I was coming

0:46:11.400 --> 0:46:13.759
<v Speaker 2>up in the lift, they were probably wiping my name

0:46:13.800 --> 0:46:16.160
<v Speaker 2>off the whiteboards as target one.

0:46:17.600 --> 0:46:21.120
<v Speaker 1>Well you know what's it saying? You should be nicer

0:46:21.200 --> 0:46:24.040
<v Speaker 1>people on the way up different things? Yeah, I mean

0:46:24.320 --> 0:46:25.239
<v Speaker 1>I'd come back to hall.

0:46:25.320 --> 0:46:27.319
<v Speaker 2>I didn't particularly take any joy from it. Some good

0:46:27.320 --> 0:46:29.440
<v Speaker 2>people there who had simply been let down by the

0:46:29.440 --> 0:46:31.839
<v Speaker 2>system allowing them to sit in that place for ten

0:46:31.920 --> 0:46:35.120
<v Speaker 2>or fifteen years. And I meant what I said on

0:46:35.160 --> 0:46:36.680
<v Speaker 2>the day. We did our best to try and have

0:46:36.800 --> 0:46:41.640
<v Speaker 2>them reintegrate into normal policing. So they were in a

0:46:41.680 --> 0:46:44.560
<v Speaker 2>secret area of internal affairs, working out of the new

0:46:44.560 --> 0:46:47.600
<v Speaker 2>South Wales Crime Commission, relying on its resources and its

0:46:47.640 --> 0:46:51.080
<v Speaker 2>secrecy provisions. They were removed from reality, from the reality

0:46:51.120 --> 0:46:53.600
<v Speaker 2>of policing for a decade.

0:46:53.640 --> 0:46:56.799
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, look at Mark Stanton, what a blight on

0:46:58.200 --> 0:47:00.719
<v Speaker 1>the position he held and the stuff he was up to.

0:47:00.960 --> 0:47:06.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean it does throw light on super judicial bodies,

0:47:07.040 --> 0:47:09.000
<v Speaker 2>as I mentioned before, and it's in the book about

0:47:09.000 --> 0:47:14.080
<v Speaker 2>them having extraordinary power, perhaps often without the extraordinary checks

0:47:14.080 --> 0:47:16.759
<v Speaker 2>and balances that must go with it. I mean, we've

0:47:16.760 --> 0:47:20.239
<v Speaker 2>traded away the right to silence in many jurisdictions, and

0:47:20.280 --> 0:47:21.399
<v Speaker 2>I'm not sure that's a good thing.

0:47:22.520 --> 0:47:25.920
<v Speaker 1>One. Just as you're telling the story, I'm thinking, and

0:47:26.040 --> 0:47:28.759
<v Speaker 1>you do have a skill, and it comes across in

0:47:28.800 --> 0:47:31.879
<v Speaker 1>the book that you can be critical of people, but

0:47:32.239 --> 0:47:34.680
<v Speaker 1>the way that you talk about people, you tend not

0:47:34.719 --> 0:47:38.800
<v Speaker 1>to make it personal. It's more okay, this is the factual.

0:47:38.960 --> 0:47:41.160
<v Speaker 1>I'm not happy with this, and I think that served

0:47:41.200 --> 0:47:43.720
<v Speaker 1>you well because you've pulled me down a couple of times.

0:47:43.719 --> 0:47:48.560
<v Speaker 1>But I've never taken offense. And I said, I still

0:47:48.600 --> 0:47:51.200
<v Speaker 1>think it's funny, and I'm still embarrassed and annoyed it myself.

0:47:51.239 --> 0:47:53.279
<v Speaker 1>I might have boiled up on the last podcast, but

0:47:53.360 --> 0:47:56.960
<v Speaker 1>those that didn't hear it when I forget which job

0:47:57.000 --> 0:47:59.640
<v Speaker 1>it was on, but I had the cranky hat on

0:47:59.640 --> 0:48:02.640
<v Speaker 1>on Speed Kingdom a staff on demanding staff. You weren't

0:48:02.640 --> 0:48:05.200
<v Speaker 1>giving me enough staff. You're in the Posta's chair in

0:48:05.200 --> 0:48:08.560
<v Speaker 1>the homicide Jason EVAs Luke Rank and you know the

0:48:08.600 --> 0:48:10.799
<v Speaker 1>crew I'm working with, and they will go in and

0:48:10.840 --> 0:48:12.520
<v Speaker 1>tell him, go in and fucking telling him. I said,

0:48:12.560 --> 0:48:14.120
<v Speaker 1>I will. I'm going in the telling him, I'm going

0:48:14.120 --> 0:48:16.400
<v Speaker 1>to demand we get more staff. We can't do this.

0:48:16.800 --> 0:48:19.239
<v Speaker 1>And I walk into your office. They've whipped me up

0:48:19.239 --> 0:48:21.359
<v Speaker 1>into a frenzy. I go in there, you go good

0:48:21.360 --> 0:48:24.480
<v Speaker 1>a Jube's okay? Well, and then I start talking and

0:48:24.480 --> 0:48:27.160
<v Speaker 1>then start talking and talking, and we spoke for about

0:48:27.160 --> 0:48:29.640
<v Speaker 1>fifteen minutes and I walk out, walk back to the

0:48:29.880 --> 0:48:32.440
<v Speaker 1>strike force, and they go, how'd that go? If we

0:48:32.480 --> 0:48:34.920
<v Speaker 1>get more staff? I said, no, it went good. Well

0:48:34.960 --> 0:48:37.680
<v Speaker 1>did you get anything? No? And then I've said to them,

0:48:37.920 --> 0:48:40.520
<v Speaker 1>but I think Nick, as I was walking out, I

0:48:40.680 --> 0:48:43.040
<v Speaker 1>still to this day and embarrassed by that. Nick, I

0:48:43.040 --> 0:48:44.799
<v Speaker 1>don't know. I don't know how you get it.

0:48:45.000 --> 0:48:46.280
<v Speaker 2>I'm negotiator.

0:48:47.200 --> 0:48:49.279
<v Speaker 1>Don't negotiate with my wife.

0:48:49.000 --> 0:48:50.640
<v Speaker 2>Off and says to me, don't negotiate me.

0:48:50.680 --> 0:48:54.520
<v Speaker 1>I know what you're doing one step ahead. But I'm

0:48:54.560 --> 0:48:56.600
<v Speaker 1>telling you I was going in there, going in there,

0:48:56.600 --> 0:49:00.279
<v Speaker 1>cranky at the cranky at the time. Now ask you

0:49:00.280 --> 0:49:02.480
<v Speaker 1>a tough question. You can't avoid this. It's one that

0:49:03.280 --> 0:49:06.160
<v Speaker 1>needs to be asked, and I expect an honest answer

0:49:06.200 --> 0:49:10.520
<v Speaker 1>for you before we wrap up part one. You supervise

0:49:10.600 --> 0:49:15.439
<v Speaker 1>myself and you also supervised Pam Young. Can you tell

0:49:15.480 --> 0:49:16.960
<v Speaker 1>me who you think is the best detective?

0:49:20.560 --> 0:49:21.600
<v Speaker 2>Clearly it's Pam.

0:49:22.480 --> 0:49:23.440
<v Speaker 1>I think you're a coward.

0:49:23.520 --> 0:49:27.080
<v Speaker 2>You're a cowd I think you're both outstanding. I'm not

0:49:27.160 --> 0:49:29.200
<v Speaker 2>saying it because you know you're my mate or she's

0:49:29.200 --> 0:49:32.160
<v Speaker 2>my mate. You both are. But we had you know,

0:49:32.200 --> 0:49:33.640
<v Speaker 2>when I look back on it, Jews, I was the

0:49:33.640 --> 0:49:36.239
<v Speaker 2>commander of the homicide squad for probably four years or so,

0:49:36.880 --> 0:49:42.560
<v Speaker 2>and we had outstanding talented detectives there, including you and

0:49:42.560 --> 0:49:45.080
<v Speaker 2>Pam and many others. So I've been doing it for

0:49:45.200 --> 0:49:48.640
<v Speaker 2>a decade of fifteen years and so on. You know

0:49:48.719 --> 0:49:52.359
<v Speaker 2>all the people, you know. It's just I always feel

0:49:52.360 --> 0:49:54.319
<v Speaker 2>a sense of sadness when I see people move on

0:49:54.360 --> 0:49:55.880
<v Speaker 2>from homicide. But I know you've got to do it,

0:49:55.920 --> 0:50:00.080
<v Speaker 2>but for your career and otherwise, it is one of

0:50:00.080 --> 0:50:02.759
<v Speaker 2>the most important jobs that you can have in policing.

0:50:03.080 --> 0:50:05.239
<v Speaker 2>There is no more serious crime than murder than a

0:50:05.280 --> 0:50:09.759
<v Speaker 2>human being having their life taken, and you need the best. Hopefully,

0:50:09.840 --> 0:50:14.400
<v Speaker 2>to deal with that sort of crime and you're outstanding.

0:50:14.880 --> 0:50:15.200
<v Speaker 1>Thanks.

0:50:15.880 --> 0:50:16.479
<v Speaker 2>She was better.

0:50:17.960 --> 0:50:20.960
<v Speaker 1>They were good times. I just clarify one thing. I

0:50:21.000 --> 0:50:24.080
<v Speaker 1>didn't move on from homicide for my career.

0:50:24.080 --> 0:50:24.800
<v Speaker 2>I got charged.

0:50:25.680 --> 0:50:29.600
<v Speaker 1>Anyway, we'll wrap up, wrap up part one. There's plenty

0:50:29.600 --> 0:50:31.640
<v Speaker 1>more to talk about because your books full of stuff.

0:50:31.680 --> 0:50:33.280
<v Speaker 1>So thank you. Have a short break.

0:50:33.320 --> 0:50:33.640
<v Speaker 2>Thank you,