1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average persons never exposed 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: to I spent thirty four years as a cop. For 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: twenty five of those years I was catching killers. That's 5 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,280 Speaker 1: what I did for a living. I was a homicide detective. 6 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking 7 00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The 8 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from 9 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest, 10 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the 11 00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,959 Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one 12 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join 13 00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Today 14 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 1: I spoke to Nick Cawvios. Nick is one of the 15 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: country's most respected law enforcement officers who's a retired New 16 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: South Wales Police Deputy commissioner who's had an incredible international career, 17 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:01,960 Speaker 1: having worked in homicide, gangs, counter terrorism, negotiators and undercover. 18 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,199 Speaker 1: He's also worked for the UN, which saw him investigating 19 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: the assassination of a former Lebanese prime minister, investigating the 20 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:13,919 Speaker 1: use of chemical weapons in Syria, rebuilding the Iraq Police Force, 21 00:01:14,160 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: and most recently chaired the Royal Commission into Defense and 22 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: Veteran Suicide. Today we found out who Nick is as 23 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 1: a person, talking about the highs and lowers of his 24 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: career and what makes him tick. You can also read 25 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 1: more about Nick and an exclusive extract from his book 26 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: Behind the Badge in the Saturday and Sunday Telegraph this weekend. 27 00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:37,640 Speaker 1: I always enjoy talking to Nick. He's been a good mate. 28 00:01:38,080 --> 00:01:41,880 Speaker 1: This is our conversation. Last time I had you on 29 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: the podcast, everyone kept talking about how good your voice is. 30 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: So stuff it up a little bit with you taking 31 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: him a job. Anyway, Nick, you speak Arabic, You're born 32 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: in Egypt, and you've got a certain look and swagger 33 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: about you. See why you're used in undercover work. You've 34 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 1: made reference to some undercover stuff in your book. Tell 35 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 1: us about your career and undercover. 36 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 2: I think I really got my start initially, at least 37 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 2: simply because of my ethnic background and language abilities. 38 00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: And you did have that big, big mustache too. 39 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,240 Speaker 2: I did it was it was a beautiful thing. But 40 00:02:20,840 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: I understand my stuches are coming back to. By the way, 41 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 2: just say you so prepare yourself. But now I just 42 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 2: I felt that it was something that was certainly exciting 43 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:33,880 Speaker 2: for a young detective. But more than that, I think 44 00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 2: you could actually do a lot of good, you know, 45 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:38,240 Speaker 2: getting drugs off the street or weapons off the street 46 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 2: and catching really bad people that you might struggle to 47 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 2: catch any other way. So I was happy, to very 48 00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: happy to be to be to be involved in it. 49 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 2: And as I got more and more into it, I 50 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 2: think I got better at it obviously, as you do, 51 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 2: and the sort of targets I was going for you 52 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 2: rows quite a few levels. 53 00:02:56,840 --> 00:02:59,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you think it was important to get that 54 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: expert pearance at the lower level of crime. 55 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,200 Speaker 2: Fortunately I started with a fairly big one, but after. 56 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: That threw you in the deepen. 57 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 2: It was Yeah, you have to understand in the eighties 58 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: there wasn't that much of a structure in terms of training, accreditation, 59 00:03:14,080 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 2: and the deployment practices were a bit at hoc. But 60 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 2: as we went along, and I say in the book 61 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 2: that one of my aims, I had some bad experiences 62 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:27,200 Speaker 2: with people taking contracts on me and so on, and 63 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,760 Speaker 2: I didn't feel I had a lot of support from workmates. 64 00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 2: I did, but not from the organization, and I wanted 65 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 2: to contribute towards fixing that, and I did that. I've 66 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 2: got a scholarship and whatever seas how to look at 67 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: how others do things and brought back a bunch of 68 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 2: ideas and that was my sort of foot in the 69 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,360 Speaker 2: door to recommend some fairly significant changes in terms of 70 00:03:46,440 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 2: welfare reassimilation and so on. 71 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, without giving away the methodology of the way 72 00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: that the people go undercover. I remember those days and 73 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 1: it was pretty rough and ready wasn't Oh that's good, 74 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: you've infiltrated the game, but we hadn't come up with 75 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: an extraction plan. 76 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 2: Nah. Yeah, I've been I hope I've been careful. I 77 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 2: don't think there was any need for me to go 78 00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 2: into methodology or give away any trade secrets. But people 79 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 2: know that this happens, and I think in some ways 80 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,080 Speaker 2: I hope it said as a turrent for those doing 81 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 2: bad things, knowing that they can get caught if they're 82 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 2: doing bad shit. 83 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: We recently had an ATO officer from the United States 84 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 1: that did a lot of undercover work. And it's a fascinating, 85 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 1: fascinating world, isn't it. 86 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, the American environment is quite different. It's 87 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 2: such a huge country, as we all know. But my 88 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 2: sense is that nearly every federal agency in the US 89 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 2: runs its own undercover program and its own tactical teams, 90 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,600 Speaker 2: and everyone carries weapons. It's a different environment. I'm not 91 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 2: sure if how Australian Tax Office would want to carry 92 00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 2: weapons and go under cover. 93 00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm not sure how it worked that way. So 94 00:04:57,000 --> 00:05:00,960 Speaker 1: You've had a long, a long career, and I know 95 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 1: when we were together in the cops, you always said 96 00:05:04,400 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 1: to me that, yeah, you think this is the focus 97 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:12,040 Speaker 1: of the world in the cops, because it's how you police. 98 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: I policed, and we're very much looking in with into 99 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: the organization. You've been out of New South Wales polace 100 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,760 Speaker 1: you're still involved in law enforcement and different aspects. You've 101 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:24,680 Speaker 1: been out of the New South Wales Police for a 102 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,000 Speaker 1: long time. Does it give you a different perspective on 103 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: the world. 104 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. And I think one of the 105 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 2: realizations that you come to when you leave the police, 106 00:05:32,640 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 2: as I'm sure you did, is that there is a 107 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: bigger world out there. I was fortunate and that while 108 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 2: I was still a police officer, I had two breaks. 109 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 2: One when I went to Iraq, for a year, and 110 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 2: then the second one when I went to the Special 111 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 2: Tribunal for Lebanon to investigate the murders in Lebanon. So 112 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:50,719 Speaker 2: I had had a bit of a taste of the 113 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 2: outside world, if you like, and I think I was 114 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,919 Speaker 2: probably reasonably comfortable making the transition after I left the police, 115 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 2: as some of our sort of mutual friends would probably 116 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 2: struggle a bit. They hadn't, and especially the guys that 117 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 2: joined as cadets, who had been there since I was sixteen, 118 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,279 Speaker 2: hadn't really tasted the outside world. I think it's good 119 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,720 Speaker 2: to have life experience before you join, and I think 120 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 2: it's certainly it's good to realize that there's a bigger 121 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:19,799 Speaker 2: world out there. It's not the end of the world. 122 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: Well, a wise man and a good friend I won't 123 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 1: name names, I'm looking at you that did pull me 124 00:06:24,839 --> 00:06:28,479 Speaker 1: aside when I got into trouble with the cops and said, look, 125 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,880 Speaker 1: Dube's there is a big world out there. Don't panic. 126 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: You'll find purpose and you'll find direction. And it was 127 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:36,840 Speaker 1: good advice at the time because I was a little 128 00:06:36,839 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: bit What am I going to do now? But let's 129 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:44,039 Speaker 1: talk about your career. It's been a fascinating career and 130 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,799 Speaker 1: I remember when you were in the New South Wales 131 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,640 Speaker 1: place you'd often disappear. We'd say, where's Nick and he's 132 00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: over working in the Middle East, or he's doing that 133 00:06:53,080 --> 00:06:53,599 Speaker 1: or doing this. 134 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 2: For it only happened twice, actually, I think the other 135 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,240 Speaker 2: times I was probably dragged into secret hearings Police Integrity Commission. 136 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: We'll talk about that a little bit later. But you 137 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: had some amazing, amazing work that you did whilst you're 138 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: still in the New South Wales Police. Tell us a 139 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: little bit. And I know we've had you on the 140 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,320 Speaker 1: podcast before, but that we only scraped the surface. Now 141 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: you did get I think three sessions. There was two 142 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: people that pipped you. Pam Young she got four. We'll 143 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: talk about that. I know that made you a bit 144 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: crank at Pam understandably, and the other one was Graham Henry, 145 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,040 Speaker 1: but we probably won't say too much about that. But 146 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: just tell us a little bit when you were in 147 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: the New South Wales Police, some of the things that 148 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,119 Speaker 1: you were doing outside of the New South Wales Police. 149 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 2: Yep. Sure, and again I mean this is in the book, 150 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,559 Speaker 2: but I did have to be a little bit careful. 151 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 2: You can't go into too much detail about some of 152 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 2: the issues. But in two thousand and four I was 153 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 2: requested by the federal government. There's a request through colleagues 154 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:58,200 Speaker 2: on you and US law enforcement to join them in 155 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 2: Iraq as part of the Coalition Authority College and Provisional 156 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: Authority rebuilding the Iraqi National Police and other law enforcement 157 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 2: agencies there. I am fluent in Arabic and I'm reasonably 158 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 2: comfortable in the Middle East, have been in a few 159 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: conflex zams I lived through the Sixth Day War and 160 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,600 Speaker 2: a few other things, so I was happy to do it. 161 00:08:16,680 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 2: I took a leave of absence and I was gone 162 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 2: for about nine nine ten months from New Southwest Police, 163 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 2: seconded to the Federal government and deployed under the auspicess 164 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,360 Speaker 2: of IS. I think we did some good things rebuilding 165 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: the Iraqi Police. I'm not going to tell you it 166 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: was a total success, but certainly there were a lot 167 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 2: of good people there trying very hard. And then in 168 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:38,599 Speaker 2: two thousand and nine, again I was selected by the 169 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 2: United Nations to head up the investigations into the assassination 170 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 2: of the former Prime Minister Hariri and a number of 171 00:08:44,880 --> 00:08:48,559 Speaker 2: other murders that were related. So again I took a 172 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 2: leave of absence. By those stage, I was deputy commissioner, 173 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 2: but I was fortunate the government and the organization said 174 00:08:54,559 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 2: they were happy for me to go. I was gone 175 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 2: for about fifteen months. I think all up and that 176 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 2: went well. I thought we indiced at five people. Ultimately 177 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,960 Speaker 2: two died and three were convicted in absentia in their absence. 178 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 2: But I think, as I've often said, it's still worth 179 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 2: doing even if you haven't physically arrested those people, because 180 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 2: the assassination has actually stopped after twenty odd in four years. 181 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: There have been a couple in more recent times, but 182 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 2: certainly the trend has completely changed. Accountability and ending that 183 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 2: cult of impunity. I thought was quite historic, and I 184 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:31,480 Speaker 2: was very happy to be a part of that. 185 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: And did the skill set that you took from your 186 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 1: policing career, did that lend itself well into those environments. 187 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 2: It's basically murder investigations. I know there was a lot 188 00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 2: of politics in the motive and so on. But one 189 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 2: of the things I hope I did when I got 190 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:51,160 Speaker 2: there is I asked the team in fact refocused the 191 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 2: investigation to some extent to focus on the basic building 192 00:09:55,760 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 2: blocks of a murder investigation, the crime scene, the forensic 193 00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 2: and ballistic evin and witnesses statements, canvassing, forensic evidence generally 194 00:10:04,240 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 2: and so on, rather than racing towards a motive and 195 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 2: a political angle. You had to do that later on, 196 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:12,160 Speaker 2: but it wasn't going to solve anything for us. It 197 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:13,959 Speaker 2: wasn't going to be what seves the murder. We had 198 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 2: to prove it in a proper court with procedural fairness, 199 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 2: and we did that. 200 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 1: That's a voice or reason that's often needed in a 201 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 1: homicide investigation, isn't it. And we were trained in the 202 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: same lineage Hofside. It's all all the white noise on 203 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: the outside, and you can get lost in that coming 204 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: up with theories, but that comes down to gathering the 205 00:10:34,640 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: evidence and just focusing and doing the basics. 206 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 2: Is yeah, exactly. You know, you're absolutely right. It's like 207 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 2: a building block. If you don't get the basics right, 208 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,640 Speaker 2: nothing else will work later on. But as you know, Gary, 209 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 2: there's a lot of would be experts out there that 210 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 2: haven't really done a lot of this stuff who talk 211 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 2: about it because they feel that they know the answers, 212 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 2: and more often than not, they don't. 213 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: It's a little bit more complex, isn't it? For sure 214 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: you've actually seen it, But I think it's interesting and 215 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: I fully understand what you're saying that you go over 216 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: there and just wind it back a little bit. Let's 217 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: just focus on the important things and you build it that. 218 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: That's the why homicides are generally solved, just building on 219 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: the little pieces, putting it all together. Okay, the book 220 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: behind the Badge, congratulations. 221 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you. 222 00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:28,599 Speaker 1: I've read it cover the cover and I've got to 223 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: say I like it. I enjoyed it. 224 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 2: Thank you, Matt. 225 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,559 Speaker 1: And I know we had discussions before you were writing 226 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: it and looking at it. How did you find it personally? 227 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: Writing it torturous? 228 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,079 Speaker 2: Tell me that. I mean, I need to say you 229 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:45,959 Speaker 2: actually one of the people who inspired me. He said 230 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 2: to me, you can do this, you should do this. 231 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 2: It's been probably three years, I think with mind writer 232 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,600 Speaker 2: Roger Joyce, who did you know. He's a great guy, 233 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 2: and I don't know. We used to do about two 234 00:11:57,240 --> 00:11:59,480 Speaker 2: to two and a half hourly sessions. We must have 235 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 2: done thirty over the three year period. And I was 236 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 2: chairing the Royal Commission at the time, so I could 237 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:06,360 Speaker 2: only have to do it sort of at nights and 238 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,080 Speaker 2: weekends and what have you. And Roger was great with 239 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 2: fitting in with me with all of that. The bottom 240 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 2: line is, I'd find it now quite daunting that the 241 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 2: book is out and you know everyone's going to read everything, 242 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 2: and I'm worried. You know, I hope I've got everything right. 243 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 2: I hope I didn't say anything that would offend people unnecessarily. 244 00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 2: But it's been quite an experience. I don't know if 245 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 2: I told you go, but apart from yourself, and have 246 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 2: a couple of other friends who have written books who 247 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:35,280 Speaker 2: have said to me, you know, you should do this 248 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 2: for your family and your kids and your legacy if 249 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:42,079 Speaker 2: you like, rather than for yourself. There's a fellow called 250 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 2: Bob bear Ba who's a former Cyia agent who did 251 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 2: write his life story and dedicated his first book. He's 252 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 2: written many now, but he dedicated his first book to 253 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 2: his kids, and he said, I hope this guest some 254 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,559 Speaker 2: way towards explaining where the hell I was. And I 255 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:00,360 Speaker 2: actually discussed it with him many years a game and 256 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 2: he said to me, it was really about that legacy 257 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 2: for your family and your kids as well as yourself. 258 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 2: But I'm happy there's some sort of record now where 259 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 2: I've been and what I've done, and our journey from 260 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 2: Egypt to Sydney and so on. But it is daunting. 261 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: But okay, there's a couple of things to unpack there. 262 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: But what you're saying too, and it makes me reflect 263 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: even when you say it in this environment, that all 264 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: the sacrifices you make it working in the sharp end 265 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: of police in law enforcement like you did, and where 266 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:37,520 Speaker 1: you're not at the family Christmas party, you're not here 267 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: or you've been called out, you're distracted, it does take 268 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: a toll on the people around you. So a book 269 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 1: is I'd like to be able to sit down that 270 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 1: and read, Okay, that's where my father was or that's 271 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:49,600 Speaker 1: where my mate was. 272 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I would hope also that my grandkids 273 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 2: and great grandkids might get to read it. It's a 274 00:13:55,360 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: bit of a legacy for us, I think for the 275 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,319 Speaker 2: Egyptian community generally, the Arabic community and all that. That's 276 00:13:59,360 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 2: a part of it is that many people in the 277 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 2: various communities encourage me to do this because they feel 278 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 2: it's sort of a I won't say it's a good 279 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,560 Speaker 2: news story, but I hope it's somewhat inspirational. I hope 280 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:12,360 Speaker 2: I'm a little bit of a role model for some 281 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 2: of the migrant communities. You know, we got it in 282 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine without much in our pocket. We had 283 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:21,360 Speaker 2: big dreams in our eyes, and we've done reasonably well. 284 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 2: And if I can do it, one of the messages 285 00:14:24,240 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 2: is anyone can do it. 286 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 1: You jump out of the pages in the book, which 287 00:14:28,760 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 1: I think is always a good read. I know you 288 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: well and reading the book, it certainly is the neck 289 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: that I know you don't pull any punches, but that's 290 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: pretty much the way you've gone about your career. You 291 00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: knew where you stood, and that sort of comes out 292 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: in the book. 293 00:14:42,360 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I hope. So. I mean, I didn't set out 294 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 2: to offend or upset anyone, but I said what I thought, 295 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 2: and I do talk about the amount of scrutiny and 296 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 2: that police today are under and the fact that those 297 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 2: who oversite them, often bodies, generally super judicial bodies, have 298 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 2: an enormous amount of power, and with that there should 299 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 2: come an enormous amount of accountability, but that's not always 300 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: the case. 301 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: On the front page of the cover a little mantra 302 00:15:18,120 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 1: that I think sets it well. Do good work, Live 303 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: by your beliefs and fear no one that there are 304 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: three strong statements are on the front cover of your book. 305 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:30,000 Speaker 1: Is that how you went about your career? 306 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 2: I hope, I hope so, particularly the last one. I mean, 307 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 2: I would hope in all the commands I've been in, 308 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 2: and the people I've led and the people who have 309 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 2: worked with me, we've never bent over because someone tried 310 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 2: to stand over us, to go on a particular direction, 311 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 2: or to do something that we don't think was right. 312 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,280 Speaker 2: I think you've been the same, and I'm really proud 313 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 2: of you for doing that. Gary. But I think if 314 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 2: you lose that, all is lost. And I used to 315 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:56,120 Speaker 2: tell people kids who are graduating from a police academy, 316 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,880 Speaker 2: nobody can take your integrity from you. You have to 317 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 2: give it up. It's really your call what you do 318 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 2: and how you act, and then you're accountable for what 319 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 2: you've done. 320 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: Well, that's a good way and good advice. And I 321 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: also hope with a book like this it might inspire 322 00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 1: people look at the life that you have lived. I'm 323 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: sure in your wildest days when you walked into the academy, 324 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: you didn't think you'd have the career that you've had. 325 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 2: Absolutely not. I actually am not ambitious. I know I've 326 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 2: got the deputy commissioner, but I didn't sit and think, jeez, 327 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:30,000 Speaker 2: I want to get promoted. I want to get promoted, 328 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 2: and you and I know people who have. But I 329 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 2: don't know. Things just happened. I was in the right 330 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 2: place at the right time often, or there was something 331 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 2: that I felt I was particularly suited to, and then 332 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 2: when it came up, I threw Manhatt in the ring 333 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 2: and was able to succeed. 334 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: I think the system works when someone just can concentrate 335 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 1: on doing their work and get rewarded, you know, without 336 00:16:53,160 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 1: we know good cops, bad cops, all sorts of cops. 337 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: But I say publicly that where people are trying to 338 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 1: use the career in the police for their own personal gain, 339 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: I'm not talking corruption, although it's probably pretty close to 340 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,320 Speaker 1: corruption where the main focus is how I can get 341 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:12,920 Speaker 1: promoted rather than what you're there to do the work. 342 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:15,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. I mean I used to when I got 343 00:17:15,640 --> 00:17:17,399 Speaker 2: to the senior ranks and I had to sort of 344 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 2: sit in judgment on others and whether they get promoted 345 00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 2: or not. I like seeing guys and girls who are 346 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,719 Speaker 2: focused on the job. They've got and do it well 347 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 2: without thinking about the next step, as you say, rather 348 00:17:29,840 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 2: than those who get somewhere and they're already thinking about 349 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 2: the next step and not focused on what they've got 350 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 2: in front of them. You've got to make your mark 351 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,600 Speaker 2: everywhere you've been. You know, three or four years I 352 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,159 Speaker 2: think is good. And this is some extenuating circumstances. But 353 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 2: three or four years and the one spot is good. 354 00:17:44,119 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 2: You make your mark, do your best, and then you 355 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 2: can look around. 356 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:49,399 Speaker 1: How do you think your upbringing shaped you in the 357 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: way that you did? Police in there? Can you tell 358 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 1: listeners a little bit about your upbringing, because it's unique 359 00:17:55,520 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 1: in itself. 360 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,199 Speaker 2: Sure, I do go over it in the book. I 361 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 2: hope I that sort of put anyone to sleep. But 362 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:05,000 Speaker 2: I was born and brought up. I'm Coptic Orthodox Egyptian 363 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,600 Speaker 2: Christian Egyptian Christian Arab and we were from the south 364 00:18:08,680 --> 00:18:12,040 Speaker 2: far south, a place called us Jult, and they are 365 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 2: fairly traditional and conservative they're but we moved from there 366 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 2: to Cairo, and then from Cairo we migrated to Australia 367 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:23,119 Speaker 2: when I was about twelve in nineteen sixty nine. I 368 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 2: think my upbringing has had a huge impact. Obviously, on 369 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 2: who I am, on what I've done, and I think 370 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:30,760 Speaker 2: it probably applies to mass people. You're a product of 371 00:18:30,800 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 2: your environment. Our family's fairly reasonably religious. We're Christians, my brothers. 372 00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 2: My brother was a medical doctor, but he gave up 373 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 2: medicine and went into the priesthood the Coptic Orthodox Church, 374 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 2: and he's still there. And I guess the core values 375 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 2: that I hope that I hold and adhere to in 376 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 2: fairness to others. I used to sell superintendents when people 377 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,160 Speaker 2: got promoted to superintendent. I used to try and see 378 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 2: them before they got the paperwork. All I'll ask of 379 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 2: you is that you treat others the way you'd like 380 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 2: to be treated. So that really basic principle of fairness, 381 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 2: how you treat people how you'd like to be treated. 382 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,119 Speaker 2: And I'd say to them that if I saw that 383 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 2: not happening, you'll hear from me. By and large, people 384 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 2: were good with that. But I think these sort of 385 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:25,719 Speaker 2: values about doing good, working hard, being fair to others, 386 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 2: and not getting a big head about where you are 387 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 2: and what you've achieved and what rank or position you hold. 388 00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 2: I think these are really important to me, and they 389 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 2: all come directly out of my childhood. My father, as 390 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 2: I mentioned in the book, was a weightlifter, and he 391 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 2: had massive, big arms and legs and what have you. 392 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 2: And he was a little bit shorter than me, but 393 00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 2: he's certainly chunkier, and he just I think, his whole 394 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 2: life if he'd no man, And I hope I followed that. 395 00:19:55,720 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 2: He certainly didn't change his views or bend in some 396 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,480 Speaker 2: really significant way just to please someone else, or was 397 00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 2: because someone's intimidated him, because he forgive the language, but 398 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 2: he never took any shit from anyone. 399 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: And you're going to get that in policing, aren't you, 400 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,359 Speaker 1: Even from at any rank. You're going to have those 401 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,679 Speaker 1: moral dilemmas and ethical dilemmas in policing and standing up 402 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 1: for what's right or wrong and what you believe. What's 403 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: the secret to that? 404 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 2: Like, I guess I've been blessed in a number of ways, 405 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 2: but one of them is having the support of my 406 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 2: family and the not just the support, but the fact 407 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 2: that they validate I guess where I'm heading and what 408 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,919 Speaker 2: I'm doing, And I think that's really important, having a 409 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 2: sort of support network around it. And the second thing 410 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 2: is with my friends and colleagues that I've had, including yourself, 411 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 2: over the years, who have basically validated again what I'm 412 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 2: doing and what I'm heading, and I count I've always 413 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 2: counted on those around me to say, hang on a minute, 414 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 2: you may have got this wrong. You want to look 415 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 2: at it again. I will always listen to that. And 416 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 2: I've had staff office as they call them, staff officer 417 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 2: or achieve your staff as someone who really runs your 418 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 2: office and is your right hand person man or woman. 419 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 2: And I had that in the police for many years, 420 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 2: and I had it overseas as well in the various 421 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,600 Speaker 2: roles I've had. It's a really important role. But it's again, 422 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 2: it's someone who's a bit of a sounding board, who's 423 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 2: not you, and who can speak to you honestly behind 424 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 2: class doors about whether you've run off the rails, whether 425 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: you've done something it's not going well, and then you, 426 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 2: hopefully you listen and you fix it. I've always told 427 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 2: those who worked around me, is you need to give 428 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 2: it that't sugar cat, It just tell me what's really 429 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,719 Speaker 2: going on. I've seen other leaders who pat it on 430 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,640 Speaker 2: the back by their staff officers and staff when everybody 431 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 2: knows they're not going well. It's no who's hiding it. 432 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 2: You know, it's no use hiding the truth from them, 433 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 2: because sooner or later it leads you down a completely 434 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 2: wrong track. 435 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: Well, it's that if the fable of the Emperor's new 436 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,040 Speaker 1: Clothes and everyone understanding, oh, you look great in that, 437 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: and yeah, certainly, and yeah, I've been fortunate enough to 438 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: work under the commands. You're the commander at homicide and 439 00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: other areas, and you always knew where you stood with 440 00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:09,600 Speaker 1: you and I did like the fact, like there's some 441 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: people would go in there and you know what the 442 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: decision is going to be, you would at least give 443 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: me your ear to hear what I've got to say. 444 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: You might agree or might not agree, but it's a 445 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: good way of leading. 446 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. I think so. I actually appreciate 447 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 2: that approach and other agencies as well. I do talk 448 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 2: a little bit in the book about the Director of 449 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 2: Public Prosecution. It's a really important office. Nick Cowdrey held 450 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 2: that position for many years. But here was someone if 451 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 2: he made a decision that we didn't agree with and 452 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 2: we sought an audience to explain our thoughts, he would 453 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,399 Speaker 2: always make that happen. Not necessarily with him personally, but 454 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 2: he would always make sure that you've got a hearing 455 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,479 Speaker 2: in writing or in person, or whatever you wanted to do. 456 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 2: I think it's just really important to be fair to people. 457 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 2: If they're disagreeing with you and they think they have 458 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 2: a point of view that you should hear before you 459 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 2: make a decision that affects them. In any walk of 460 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 2: life or any walk of life, it's important. 461 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,080 Speaker 1: Holds you in good stead. Let's I want to read 462 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,640 Speaker 1: an extract out from the book, and it's just it's 463 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,680 Speaker 1: you explain it because it's fascinating. I love the description 464 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,400 Speaker 1: of it. I'll try to do it justice reading it out. 465 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: So this is an extract from your book, and I 466 00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 1: want you to explain the situation. Smoke from the big, 467 00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: expensive colhebe cigars curled in the air around us. I 468 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 1: sunk deep into a luxurious lounge, and the only thing 469 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: between me and one of the most feared men in 470 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,560 Speaker 1: the Middle East was an elegant coffee table laden with 471 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: French cakes, tiny cups of Arab coffee, and a massive astre. 472 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: My companion was a man so powerful he could make 473 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: people disappear in the heartbeat, including me, if he felt 474 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,360 Speaker 1: like it. And I was on his turf. You got 475 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: my attention, Nick, tell us what's what that is about. 476 00:23:54,280 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: That's an extract from the book Behind the Badge. 477 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 2: Right, So, there's a probably a chapter or two in 478 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 2: the book about my role as the Director of Oversight 479 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 2: for the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. Essentially, I 480 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 2: was like the head of Internal Affairs. UNU is an 481 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 2: agency that handles all the issues to do with the 482 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 2: Palestine refugees, which is very topical at the moment. Thirty 483 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 2: thousand plus staff, a budget of two plus billion US 484 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 2: a year in five countries where the refugees are located, 485 00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 2: five locations Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Gaza and the West Bank, 486 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 2: and we had offices and staff in all five areas. 487 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 2: I had four departments, Sorry to ramble a bit that 488 00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 2: I had four departments, and Investigations being one of the 489 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,480 Speaker 2: main ones, and then Audits evaluation. The un evaluates every 490 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:43,240 Speaker 2: program to see if it's working or not. And then 491 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 2: the Ethics division. So wherever there were complaints about anything 492 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 2: in process or even promotions, for instance, within the agency, 493 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,960 Speaker 2: we would investigate those. We had a whole lot of 494 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 2: work to be done. In the Syrian office in Damascus, 495 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 2: my investigators, in particular being refused visas to go into Syria. I, 496 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:06,720 Speaker 2: as the leader, had to find a way to change 497 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 2: that so that we did get I managed to get. 498 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:10,879 Speaker 2: I used to get my visas all the time. I 499 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 2: need to say we traveled on diplomatic passports with the 500 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,520 Speaker 2: United Nations. Theoretically you shouldn't need a visa to go anywhere, 501 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 2: but the two countries that insisted on a visa were 502 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 2: Israel and Syria. They're the ones were affect that affected us. 503 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 2: So Syria, I had to find a way to reach 504 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,440 Speaker 2: the Syrian government to allow my people to be able 505 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,120 Speaker 2: to come in and out so they can carry out 506 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 2: these really important investigations. And those investigations are particularly important 507 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 2: to reassure donor countries. Hundreds of millions of dollars are involved. 508 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 2: They need to make sure that they need to be 509 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:47,119 Speaker 2: assured that everything's on track, there's no corruption and so on, 510 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 2: which I think buy in large was the case. So 511 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 2: I tapped into an Egyptian fellow on you who was 512 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:57,680 Speaker 2: a very senior person in the United Nations security apparatus. 513 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 2: I knew he had reach into the Syrian regime because 514 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 2: of time he had spent there. And we had dinner 515 00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:06,960 Speaker 2: in Amman and Jordan, where I was living at the time, 516 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 2: with this United Nations posting, and I asked if you 517 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 2: could introduce me to someone who can get this done. 518 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 2: And he nominated this fellow the rank of major general, 519 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 2: and he was essentially the head of a committee that 520 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,639 Speaker 2: had all the intelligence agencies, including the secret police and 521 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 2: so on in the Assad regime in Syria. I took 522 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 2: a bit of a gamble. Some people in my office 523 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 2: said you shouldn't go. Others I didn't tell them because 524 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 2: I knew it was just going to cause problems even it. 525 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: Shouldn't go for safety reasons. 526 00:26:36,720 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 2: Shouldn't safety, Yeah, So we'd fly into a be route 527 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 2: and then get a car across and get picked up 528 00:26:43,760 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 2: by the UN car. It's about two and a half 529 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 2: hours to Damascus. You can't fly into Damascus in that 530 00:26:48,320 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 2: stage because there was a war, and the UN said 531 00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,160 Speaker 2: you can't be flying. He's not safe. So we'd drive 532 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 2: to Damascus and then have our meetings. They used to 533 00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,639 Speaker 2: go for four or five or a week, four or 534 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 2: five days or a week, and then come back to 535 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 2: beirutin and head back to Jordan where I was living, 536 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 2: where headquarters was and so I arranged to meet this 537 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 2: fellow through my contact and I got given the number 538 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 2: of his chief of staff, who was a major, and 539 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,719 Speaker 2: that's who I dealt with to arrange the meeting. I 540 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 2: on the day in question, when I decided to go 541 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 2: and meet him, to ask you, very very nicely, if 542 00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,560 Speaker 2: you could make sure that all my stuff got visas. 543 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 2: I had one security person with me who was armed, 544 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 2: and I think a car may have been armored at 545 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,160 Speaker 2: the time. It took us a while to find the compound. 546 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 2: The run as science is nothing and the description I 547 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 2: had simply wasn't the best. Eventually we found it and 548 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,120 Speaker 2: then we went They were expecting us, and we went 549 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 2: through a number of checkpoints to get to these marble 550 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 2: stairs to get that goes into the building, and my 551 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 2: escort was told to stay in the car outside, and 552 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 2: I didn't expect him to come in with me, and 553 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,639 Speaker 2: I wouldn't want him to coming with me. And then 554 00:27:57,680 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 2: I went inside and we went through some more checkpoints 555 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 2: and I met with the general and his chief of 556 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 2: staff and a couple of others. I think we're there, 557 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 2: and I explained what I was there for. Sorry, before 558 00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 2: I talked to him about all of that. And this 559 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 2: is something for people to bear in mind when they're 560 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 2: dealing with Arabic community in particular. But I think human 561 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,080 Speaker 2: beings generally, they should make a bit of an effort 562 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 2: to build some rap or discuss the weather, you know, 563 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 2: what you do on the weekend, whatever, just something, rather 564 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,400 Speaker 2: than just launching straight into business. Certainly in the Arab world, 565 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 2: it's rude to come in and just launch into the 566 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,439 Speaker 2: business at hand. So we did that for about fifteen 567 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:34,960 Speaker 2: twenty minutes, and he was very interested in my background, 568 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 2: why I spoke Arabic. He picked my accents straight away. 569 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 2: I think he knew who I was and all that, 570 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 2: So that's why I was there. And we had a 571 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 2: really really animated, very positive discussion, and I think he 572 00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: liked me. I think I won him over, and he 573 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 2: in some ways won me over as well. I mean, 574 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 2: knowing what he's been involved in with the Assid regime, 575 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,400 Speaker 2: and I had conducted the investigation of the use of 576 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 2: chemical weapons and all these guys were ended up to 577 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 2: their ear holes. And yet it was impossible, as I 578 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:05,360 Speaker 2: say in the book, it was impossible to dislike the 579 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:10,400 Speaker 2: bloke when you met him up front. Up close, and 580 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:12,720 Speaker 2: he said you'll have what you'll get what you want, 581 00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,960 Speaker 2: no problem, and he was true to his word. I 582 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 2: did make an effort to go and see him a 583 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:20,320 Speaker 2: number of times after that, just to maintain a relationship. 584 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,560 Speaker 2: He was actually very helpful to us. I think the 585 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:23,880 Speaker 2: main thing I had to explain to him, and I 586 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 2: sat and thought about that before I went and saw him, 587 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 2: is we're not there investigating the Asset regime. It'syria. We're 588 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 2: like internal affairs. We're investigating United Nations staff who were 589 00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 2: accused or suspected of doing the wrong thing. It's nothing 590 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 2: to do with the regime. I do say in the 591 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 2: book also that I wasn't sure if he really knew 592 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 2: who I was, because I had led the investigation into 593 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:48,400 Speaker 2: the assassination of the Prime Minister and we charged Hesibela figures, 594 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,959 Speaker 2: and then I did the investigation to chemicalre weapons and 595 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,000 Speaker 2: we wrote the report that blamed the Asset regime. So 596 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 2: on those two counts he would have been cranky with me, 597 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,520 Speaker 2: but I didn't see any sign of that. And in 598 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 2: the last time I went to see him to say, look, 599 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,200 Speaker 2: I'm heading back to Australia, and you know he's took 600 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:07,400 Speaker 2: someone with me to introduce him, to maintain the contact, 601 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 2: who was a Sudanese fellow who also spake Arabic. I 602 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,000 Speaker 2: still wasn't sure if he knew what I had done 603 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 2: in the past, and I said something about a report 604 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 2: being written, and he just looked at me and he said, 605 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:20,720 Speaker 2: and as people write reports about all sorts of things, 606 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,120 Speaker 2: it doesn't things, it doesn't mean anything. And him and 607 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 2: his team just laughed, and he knew exactly who I was. 608 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 2: But it didn't stop him helping me. It didn't stop 609 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 2: him meeting with me. And certainly nothing bad happened to me, 610 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 2: and I didn't think it would, Otherwise I wouldn't have 611 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 2: gone in. 612 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: I suppose the risk there, like UN been a member 613 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,960 Speaker 1: of the UN would offer you some form of protection, 614 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 1: but it also make you a valuable asset. They wanted 615 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: to look who we've got, We've got Nick possibly. 616 00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, but look, I mean, by and large, the regime 617 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 2: played fair with the United Nations. But look, it was 618 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 2: a bit of a risk. And after I did it, 619 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 2: I declared it to those above me, and they weren't 620 00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 2: entirely comfortable with it. But we got the job done. 621 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 2: We got the visas and our staff was going in. 622 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 2: We're going in and out with no problem at all, 623 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 2: in and out of CREA. 624 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 1: If you can do that, there's probably a couple of 625 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,440 Speaker 1: things I should declare to you when you were my boss. 626 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,680 Speaker 1: So I didn't declare at a time, but we got 627 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: a way over it. 628 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 2: I'm going to need a list later too. 629 00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: I'll start in alphabetical order. It matters like that. But 630 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 1: it's interesting, isn't it that the skills that you have 631 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: as a police officer in New South Wales and state police, 632 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: you've taken them on the world stage and it's about communication. 633 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: It's about assessing people and building a rapport, which is 634 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 1: pretty much the way you've got through your career in 635 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: New South Wales. 636 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 2: I hope so. Gary. The other thing is, I think 637 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 2: I don't think I'm that special. I think police generally, 638 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 2: but particularly detectives, are problem solves. We look at an 639 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 2: issue and how do you get around it, how do 640 00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,680 Speaker 2: you get the job done. It's what cops do every 641 00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 2: day of the week. I simply applied that wherever I went, 642 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,840 Speaker 2: and I was very lucky. We got everywhere I've been, 643 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 2: we've actually achieved the objectives. So I'm happy about that. 644 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,440 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, the book is a rollercoaster of highs and 645 00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:14,840 Speaker 1: lows and different things. Operation Mascot. Do you want to 646 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:15,479 Speaker 1: talk about it? 647 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 2: Not particularly because I think it is important. 648 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 1: I think it defines you as a person, and I'll 649 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,320 Speaker 1: let you tell the story. But the fact that you 650 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: dug your heels in and kept fighting for not just yourself, 651 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 1: for everyone because you didn't think it was ethical and 652 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 1: fair and whatso. 653 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 2: There it was supposed to be an investigation in the 654 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,160 Speaker 2: corrupt police, and there was a fellow known as M five, 655 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:46,080 Speaker 2: his identity suppressed, and he for some reason turned if 656 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 2: you like, and offered or was forced to assist internal 657 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 2: affairs and the Police Integrity Commission and the new South 658 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,360 Speaker 2: ask Grime Commission for quite some time, perhaps a couple 659 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 2: of years of wiring up, you know, wearing a bug 660 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 2: going around the state basically trying to talk to allegedly 661 00:33:05,200 --> 00:33:09,200 Speaker 2: corrupt police to entrap them. Basically I was a subject 662 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:10,960 Speaker 2: of that. It was one of my complaints at the 663 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 2: time was that the legislation allowing entrapment agent provocateur if 664 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 2: you like, states that it can only be as a 665 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:20,320 Speaker 2: result of a specific complaint, and you can only test 666 00:33:20,360 --> 00:33:23,000 Speaker 2: for that specific evense and you can only do it once. 667 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 2: I got about half a dozen visits from him. I 668 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 2: had someone else that had got fifteen visits from him, 669 00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 2: So there were no rules at that stage. Four Internal 670 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 2: affairs and special crime. 671 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: When did that happen? And how long you're. 672 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know exactly when it started, but 673 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 2: it was certainly the late nineties and into the two thousands, 674 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 2: so I understand it wrapped up about two thousand and three. 675 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,600 Speaker 1: Perhaps, And would you have touched on in the book? 676 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:48,240 Speaker 1: So yeah, I do. 677 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. When we began discussions about the book with the 678 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,840 Speaker 2: publishers and the author and so on, I did make 679 00:33:54,880 --> 00:33:57,160 Speaker 2: the point that I didn't want this issue of that 680 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,959 Speaker 2: I'm about to tell you about to be what defines me. 681 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 2: I hope It's not what definds me. I hope. I'm 682 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,560 Speaker 2: a lot of other things as well. But it did 683 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 2: play a part obviously in my life. That took a 684 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 2: couple of years out of my life probably, So I 685 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:12,879 Speaker 2: was the target of internal affairs for quite some time 686 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:15,800 Speaker 2: and the Police Integrity Commission in unison. I was probably 687 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 2: a loud, annoying voice in the background. I did get 688 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 2: to be on the executive of the police union and 689 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 2: wearing that hat. I can think of one particular press 690 00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 2: conference where I held the press conference and called them 691 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,719 Speaker 2: out for what they weren't following processes. After the wood 692 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 2: Raw Commission, the oversight industry, if you like, was completely 693 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,799 Speaker 2: out of control. They could do whatever they wanted and 694 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,839 Speaker 2: justified by the fact that Wood had uncovered corruption, which 695 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 2: he clearly did. It's made out about that, So then 696 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 2: I became target one. Ironically, some of the people who 697 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:47,880 Speaker 2: I now know were investigating me I had made formal 698 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 2: complaints about, so they had massive conflicts of interest. I 699 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 2: also now know that I was the subject of eighty 700 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 2: eight zero bugging warrants, which the Armbudsman at the time, 701 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,720 Speaker 2: Bruce Barber, the in a parliamentary inquiry. So they established 702 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 2: a parliamentary inquiry. When the affidavits behind the warrants came 703 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,640 Speaker 2: to light, and it showed that most of us were 704 00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:11,319 Speaker 2: not actually were not mentioned in the affidavits, so there 705 00:35:11,360 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 2: was no information placed before the judge for him or 706 00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 2: her to sign the warrant to authorize us being buggd. 707 00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 2: It was completely inappropriate and illegal. Now when that came 708 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 2: to light, there were many, many renewed complaints from one 709 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,600 Speaker 2: hundred and fourteen of us, and so they get Premier 710 00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:31,600 Speaker 2: at the time, Barrier Farrell. He can't give it to 711 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,080 Speaker 2: internal Affairs, they're accused, couldn't give it to the Police 712 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 2: Integrity Commission, they're accused, couldn't give it to the New 713 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 2: southmast Crime Commission. They're accused. They were all part of 714 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:43,680 Speaker 2: this bugging operation Mascot, Operation Mascot Florida. So they gave 715 00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 2: it to the Ombudsman's office. Somewhere along the line they 716 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 2: added the line in there that he should investigate who 717 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 2: revealed the wrongdoing. Now, most of us it had been 718 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:59,480 Speaker 2: declared whistleblowers under the Public Interest Disclosures Legislation. I think 719 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,600 Speaker 2: it's Section nineteen of the Public Interest Disclosures Act says 720 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 2: that if your problem is not solved within six months, 721 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,840 Speaker 2: you're entitled to it specifies in the Act. In the 722 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,480 Speaker 2: legislation you are entitled to talk to journalists and politicians, 723 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 2: which is what a lot of us did. Now, the 724 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,839 Speaker 2: body that's meant to protect whistleblowers in New South Wales 725 00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,279 Speaker 2: is the Mbuzman's office, and yet that's who grilled all 726 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 2: of us about who revealed the wrongdoing. And to this 727 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 2: day I've not been asked one question about the bugging. 728 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 2: All of us have been asked about is who revealed 729 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 2: the wrongdoing? So we complained the Office of Bombusman does 730 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:35,400 Speaker 2: not have an inspector, so he answered to Parliament. So 731 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:38,279 Speaker 2: we went to Parliament and they held two inquiries into 732 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 2: what happened. And obviously they're not happy about the body 733 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:46,000 Speaker 2: that was investigating the wrongdoing also investigating who revealed the wrongdoing. 734 00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 2: You can't do that, and that's where it lays that 735 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,319 Speaker 2: they handed down a report that no one with no 736 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:54,480 Speaker 2: one agreed with. Certainly all the aggrieved individuals are very 737 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 2: unhappy because there's been no closure. They never got to 738 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 2: the bottom of the bugging, and no one's been held 739 00:36:58,600 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 2: to account. 740 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 1: There's been no It was an ugly, ugly time and 741 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:05,360 Speaker 1: there was a lot of us mentioned mentioned on the 742 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:06,000 Speaker 1: warrant and. 743 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 2: Not what were you on there? 744 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I got to the point where I didn't realize 745 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: I was on there, But I was starting to get 746 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: concerned because there's so many what I considered good police 747 00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 1: that were on there. 748 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,160 Speaker 2: A few people have said to me, what's wrong with me? 749 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:20,600 Speaker 2: How come I didn't make the warrants. 750 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: I think I deserved it. We joke about it. But 751 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 1: the police corruption, but you made an interesting point in 752 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,440 Speaker 1: your in your book, and we know what happened with 753 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,880 Speaker 1: the Wood Royal Commission and needed to stamp out corruption. 754 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: There's no argument there. Then we have Skia investigating police 755 00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: and you made the point that, yeah, they got to 756 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:45,480 Speaker 1: the police pre royal commission to talk of noble cause 757 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,280 Speaker 1: corruption in that you know, the ends justify the means 758 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:52,520 Speaker 1: and all that and not being accountable. And it's started 759 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 1: to evolve that the police, the people that were investigating 760 00:37:56,080 --> 00:37:59,440 Speaker 1: the corrupt police for corrupt behavior, we're think, yeah, not 761 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 1: with accordance to the rules, that. 762 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:05,359 Speaker 2: They were bending the rules too. There's not out about that. Yeah, look, 763 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 2: I just it was one of those things I had 764 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 2: to really sit and think about how much do I 765 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:13,759 Speaker 2: want to say do I want to say anything about this? 766 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,319 Speaker 2: And I didn't have it in me to leave it out, 767 00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 2: but I didn't want it to dominate the book, and 768 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 2: I didn't want anyone to think this is a bit. 769 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 2: This book is a big winch I hope it's not 770 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 2: a win. 771 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 1: Well, I put on record now because I read through 772 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 1: it and I wondered where you were going with it. 773 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,080 Speaker 1: I didn't see it. There's a wine that was an observation, 774 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: and you paid homage to you're not talking everyone, You're 775 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 1: talking certain people and making things like there was something 776 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:41,279 Speaker 1: that really resonated with me that people that were investigating 777 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,400 Speaker 1: weren't working within the restrictions of that we have to 778 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 1: do as police officers. Even though they were police officers, 779 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:48,839 Speaker 1: they weren't qualifying for their weapons. 780 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 2: And all that stuff. 781 00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,560 Speaker 1: All that stuff like that about unfairness. So I probably 782 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:57,040 Speaker 1: zero in in light of what's happened to me, But 783 00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,319 Speaker 1: I think it was a balance view, and you were 784 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 1: very careful not to attack in the individuals on it. 785 00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:06,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I really didn't want to set out to 786 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,360 Speaker 2: have it, as we said, to be a big wings. 787 00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,279 Speaker 2: I have most of the book, and the tone of 788 00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 2: the book is positive. It's about a happy story where 789 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 2: I achieved a great deal and started with nothing and 790 00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 2: so on. But I also couldn't leave it out. It 791 00:39:19,120 --> 00:39:21,560 Speaker 2: was the same as actually making the complaints way back. 792 00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:24,080 Speaker 2: I had to make a decision do I sit silently 793 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 2: and let someone else do their heavy lifting. But I 794 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 2: mean I had got the deputy commissioner and I had 795 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 2: at least two friends who really suffered by what happened 796 00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:35,440 Speaker 2: with Operation Mascot in the en ones Month's office. They 797 00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,960 Speaker 2: were treated very badly. I didn't have it in me 798 00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:41,319 Speaker 2: to pretend I didn't see what was happening and to 799 00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,839 Speaker 2: let someone else do their heavy lifting, right up until 800 00:39:43,840 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 2: the day I walked into the parliamentary inquiry and unleashed 801 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 2: if you like. I found out later that the crime 802 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 2: squads had basically down tools that day and stayed glued 803 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 2: to the TV. A lot of them stayed glued to 804 00:39:57,880 --> 00:39:59,040 Speaker 2: the TV and the meal rims. 805 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:06,520 Speaker 1: We're interested, I'll admit to that. 806 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 2: But the bottom line is, I think you just have 807 00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,320 Speaker 2: to make a decision. I didn't have it in me 808 00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 2: to walk away and just forget, you know, so let 809 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:13,839 Speaker 2: someone else do the heavy lift. Before I walked into 810 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:17,120 Speaker 2: that parliamentary inquiry, my lawyer, who I trust with my life, 811 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:19,759 Speaker 2: said to me, last chance, Is there any chance you 812 00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:21,319 Speaker 2: just let this go and let someone else take the 813 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 2: heavy lifting? 814 00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:22,319 Speaker 1: Yeah? 815 00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:24,480 Speaker 2: And I just said, I just I really appreciate you're 816 00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:26,719 Speaker 2: worrying about me. I've made my mind up. I mean 817 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,399 Speaker 2: a lot of politicians said to me, if you do this, 818 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 2: you might feely have done the right thing, but it 819 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,879 Speaker 2: probably means you'll never be a commissioner. I thought about 820 00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:36,960 Speaker 2: it and I made a conscious decision to go ahead. 821 00:40:37,360 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 2: You know what, I regret nothing, absolutely nothing. I do 822 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 2: it all again tomorrow for I had to. 823 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think it's mark you as a man 824 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: and the officer that you respected for the type of person. 825 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:53,600 Speaker 1: But what's a personal cost? So I know taking the stand. 826 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,120 Speaker 1: I've taken the stand on different things, and I know 827 00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: it comes to the cost. You get, okay, I'm going 828 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: to do this. You're sitting they're thinking do I really 829 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:04,800 Speaker 1: want this? No? Fuck it? And you go in there 830 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: and you do it. But it takes a cost. What 831 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 1: sort of costs does it take on you? 832 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,319 Speaker 2: It certainly took the stuffing out of me for a 833 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,520 Speaker 2: few years. I was dragged into hearings at the Police 834 00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 2: Deegorty Commission and all that. I go into all that, 835 00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:19,640 Speaker 2: and on a personal level, I certainly didn't help my marriage. 836 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 2: And you know, when I went to the parliamentary inquiry 837 00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:27,120 Speaker 2: someone I had remarried my current wife and I don't 838 00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 2: think she'd been through something like this before, but watching 839 00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:34,840 Speaker 2: her husband go through a really horrible time. There's a 840 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:37,799 Speaker 2: lot of mudfrain in every direction. Thankfully, I don't think 841 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 2: anything stuck to me. My complaint was that I had 842 00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,640 Speaker 2: not been asked one question about what had gone wrong 843 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:49,120 Speaker 2: with twenty one Supreme Court judges signing warrants where they're 844 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:52,560 Speaker 2: authorizing the bugging of people even though they're not mentioned 845 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 2: in the affidavit and there is no information against us. 846 00:41:56,400 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 2: If that has happened, then I'm hoping it doesn't still continue. 847 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 2: Then you know, it's a huge miscarriage of justice. I 848 00:42:05,239 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 2: see that whole episode and the inquiry that followed it 849 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:11,640 Speaker 2: as a dark day, a very dark day for justice 850 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 2: in the state of New South Wales. It hasn't been righted, 851 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,880 Speaker 2: it's never been sorted. It still hangs like a cloud 852 00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,560 Speaker 2: over a whole lot of people, and there's no closure. 853 00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:22,840 Speaker 2: I mean, one of the reasons I took on the 854 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 2: Lebanon investigations was to try and give people closure. Out 855 00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:27,960 Speaker 2: of all those murders that had happened. You and I 856 00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:29,800 Speaker 2: have worked on homicide, and it's probably one of the 857 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,839 Speaker 2: most satisfying things when you solve the murder and lock 858 00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,440 Speaker 2: up the murderer and you can go to the victim's 859 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,200 Speaker 2: family sit down with them and say, this is what happened. 860 00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,920 Speaker 2: We now know the truth. At least it won't bring 861 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,600 Speaker 2: them back the person that's been killed, but at least 862 00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 2: you know what happened, and it gives you closure. I 863 00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 2: mean that's a really extreme example, but certainly the bugging 864 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,000 Speaker 2: saga there's been no closure. 865 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 1: Well, I think the fact that you stand up. Sometimes 866 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 1: you don't get the exact result you're aiming for. Sometimes 867 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,040 Speaker 1: that doesn't come out. But the fact that you stood 868 00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:03,760 Speaker 1: up and made peopleccountable because it was worrying that people know. Okay, 869 00:43:04,280 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 1: we're the major crime detectives. People make allegations against it, 870 00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:10,040 Speaker 1: the nature nature of our work, and then you have 871 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:13,400 Speaker 1: the people sitting above the judicating on us. Well, they 872 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,160 Speaker 1: should be working by the same rules we're working by. 873 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, procedural fairness should trump all. 874 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,480 Speaker 1: And you can't you can't argue, can't argue with that. 875 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:27,440 Speaker 1: But I had a laugh, and that there is for 876 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,880 Speaker 1: all the darkness, there's some humor. Then you became the 877 00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:35,520 Speaker 1: deputy commissioner after causing all this kerfuffle, and who do 878 00:43:35,560 --> 00:43:39,800 Speaker 1: you have to oversee the very body of the command 879 00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,719 Speaker 1: that you were complaining about tell me about that? How 880 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:45,320 Speaker 1: that go? That would have been a nice meeting. 881 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 2: First up, well, I think the Special Crime Unit, which 882 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:51,799 Speaker 2: really had no reason to exist, it was a mini 883 00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 2: CIB competing with the ouse version of the CIB, come 884 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,520 Speaker 2: an investigation area in crime agencies. And then it becomes 885 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:01,840 Speaker 2: that Crime Command was simply about individuals who felt this 886 00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,880 Speaker 2: was good for their career. That's my view now. I 887 00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,319 Speaker 2: think everyone felt that it wasn't working and it needed 888 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 2: to be disbanded. But I was briefed by the Australian 889 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:16,319 Speaker 2: Federal Police about their secret investigation into a fellow called 890 00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,160 Speaker 2: Marke Standen, who was the Assistant Commissioner in the new 891 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,640 Speaker 2: Southwest Crime Commission, a former Federal police officer and former 892 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:26,280 Speaker 2: customs agent. I was told obviously it had to remain 893 00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:29,080 Speaker 2: a secret for a little bit longer. I think it 894 00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,560 Speaker 2: was six months or so after I was brief that 895 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 2: he was finally arrested. But he was sort of the 896 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:40,200 Speaker 2: co leader or co commander really of the Special Crime 897 00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 2: Investigations internal affairs. So when he was arrested and charged 898 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,719 Speaker 2: and he's been convicted, he's done his time and he's out. 899 00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:51,319 Speaker 2: Now I understand he did twenty odd years. By the way, 900 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:55,880 Speaker 2: when that happened, we then moved towards shutting down the 901 00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,240 Speaker 2: special crime function of Internal Affairs and got Internal Affairs 902 00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,800 Speaker 2: to go back to being internal affairs. We changed the 903 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,120 Speaker 2: name to Professional Standards, which is a lot more than 904 00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:09,280 Speaker 2: just internal affairs. It's about doing things proactively and having 905 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,520 Speaker 2: processes in place, sps, standard operating procedures in place and 906 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,640 Speaker 2: so on. That helped the cop on the street to 907 00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:18,919 Speaker 2: give them an environment in which they can know what's 908 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:21,239 Speaker 2: right and what's wrong, and have resources that help them 909 00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:24,479 Speaker 2: make decisions and so on. And I'm really proud Paul 910 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:26,680 Speaker 2: Carey was the Assistant commission that we promoted to get 911 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,160 Speaker 2: that job done. And he did say to me at 912 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:32,200 Speaker 2: one stage that the word fairness did not appear in 913 00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:35,200 Speaker 2: any of the literature in the previous regime, and any 914 00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,800 Speaker 2: of the standard operating procedures. Fairness just didn't feature. 915 00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:41,280 Speaker 1: It's all my like they were creating a pseudo major crime. 916 00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:46,040 Speaker 2: It was yeah, so yeah, look, but to your point, 917 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,759 Speaker 2: the day I made a decision, so I had been 918 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 2: promoted to Deputy commission, a specialist operation. I was among 919 00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:53,759 Speaker 2: the many commands I had. I was in charge became 920 00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,359 Speaker 2: in charge of internal affairs. I had to go down 921 00:45:56,560 --> 00:45:59,359 Speaker 2: and tell them that we're disbanding the unit and then 922 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,640 Speaker 2: lead to go back into the mainstream and that will 923 00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:03,439 Speaker 2: help them in any way they can, which we did 924 00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:06,080 Speaker 2: and some of them did, and some of them simply 925 00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:09,600 Speaker 2: didn't want to do that. But it was a joke 926 00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,319 Speaker 2: at the time that they were. As I was coming 927 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,759 Speaker 2: up in the lift, they were probably wiping my name 928 00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 2: off the whiteboards as target one. 929 00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:21,120 Speaker 1: Well you know what's it saying? You should be nicer 930 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:24,040 Speaker 1: people on the way up different things? Yeah, I mean 931 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:25,239 Speaker 1: I'd come back to hall. 932 00:46:25,320 --> 00:46:27,319 Speaker 2: I didn't particularly take any joy from it. Some good 933 00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,440 Speaker 2: people there who had simply been let down by the 934 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,839 Speaker 2: system allowing them to sit in that place for ten 935 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:35,120 Speaker 2: or fifteen years. And I meant what I said on 936 00:46:35,160 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 2: the day. We did our best to try and have 937 00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:41,640 Speaker 2: them reintegrate into normal policing. So they were in a 938 00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,560 Speaker 2: secret area of internal affairs, working out of the new 939 00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 2: South Wales Crime Commission, relying on its resources and its 940 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,080 Speaker 2: secrecy provisions. They were removed from reality, from the reality 941 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,600 Speaker 2: of policing for a decade. 942 00:46:53,640 --> 00:46:56,799 Speaker 1: And yeah, look at Mark Stanton, what a blight on 943 00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,719 Speaker 1: the position he held and the stuff he was up to. 944 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:06,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it does throw light on super judicial bodies, 945 00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:09,000 Speaker 2: as I mentioned before, and it's in the book about 946 00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 2: them having extraordinary power, perhaps often without the extraordinary checks 947 00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,759 Speaker 2: and balances that must go with it. I mean, we've 948 00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:20,239 Speaker 2: traded away the right to silence in many jurisdictions, and 949 00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:21,399 Speaker 2: I'm not sure that's a good thing. 950 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,920 Speaker 1: One. Just as you're telling the story, I'm thinking, and 951 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,759 Speaker 1: you do have a skill, and it comes across in 952 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,879 Speaker 1: the book that you can be critical of people, but 953 00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:34,680 Speaker 1: the way that you talk about people, you tend not 954 00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:38,800 Speaker 1: to make it personal. It's more okay, this is the factual. 955 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,160 Speaker 1: I'm not happy with this, and I think that served 956 00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:43,720 Speaker 1: you well because you've pulled me down a couple of times. 957 00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:48,560 Speaker 1: But I've never taken offense. And I said, I still 958 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,200 Speaker 1: think it's funny, and I'm still embarrassed and annoyed it myself. 959 00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:53,279 Speaker 1: I might have boiled up on the last podcast, but 960 00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,960 Speaker 1: those that didn't hear it when I forget which job 961 00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:59,640 Speaker 1: it was on, but I had the cranky hat on 962 00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,640 Speaker 1: on Speed Kingdom a staff on demanding staff. You weren't 963 00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:05,200 Speaker 1: giving me enough staff. You're in the Posta's chair in 964 00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,560 Speaker 1: the homicide Jason EVAs Luke Rank and you know the 965 00:48:08,600 --> 00:48:10,799 Speaker 1: crew I'm working with, and they will go in and 966 00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:12,520 Speaker 1: tell him, go in and fucking telling him. I said, 967 00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 1: I will. I'm going in the telling him, I'm going 968 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:16,400 Speaker 1: to demand we get more staff. We can't do this. 969 00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:19,239 Speaker 1: And I walk into your office. They've whipped me up 970 00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:21,359 Speaker 1: into a frenzy. I go in there, you go good 971 00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:24,480 Speaker 1: a Jube's okay? Well, and then I start talking and 972 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,160 Speaker 1: then start talking and talking, and we spoke for about 973 00:48:27,160 --> 00:48:29,640 Speaker 1: fifteen minutes and I walk out, walk back to the 974 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,440 Speaker 1: strike force, and they go, how'd that go? If we 975 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:34,920 Speaker 1: get more staff? I said, no, it went good. Well 976 00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,680 Speaker 1: did you get anything? No? And then I've said to them, 977 00:48:37,920 --> 00:48:40,520 Speaker 1: but I think Nick, as I was walking out, I 978 00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:43,040 Speaker 1: still to this day and embarrassed by that. Nick, I 979 00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:44,799 Speaker 1: don't know. I don't know how you get it. 980 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:46,280 Speaker 2: I'm negotiator. 981 00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:49,279 Speaker 1: Don't negotiate with my wife. 982 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:50,640 Speaker 2: Off and says to me, don't negotiate me. 983 00:48:50,680 --> 00:48:54,520 Speaker 1: I know what you're doing one step ahead. But I'm 984 00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:56,600 Speaker 1: telling you I was going in there, going in there, 985 00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:00,279 Speaker 1: cranky at the cranky at the time. Now ask you 986 00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:02,480 Speaker 1: a tough question. You can't avoid this. It's one that 987 00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:06,160 Speaker 1: needs to be asked, and I expect an honest answer 988 00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:10,520 Speaker 1: for you before we wrap up part one. You supervise 989 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:15,439 Speaker 1: myself and you also supervised Pam Young. Can you tell 990 00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:16,960 Speaker 1: me who you think is the best detective? 991 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:21,600 Speaker 2: Clearly it's Pam. 992 00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:23,440 Speaker 1: I think you're a coward. 993 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:27,080 Speaker 2: You're a cowd I think you're both outstanding. I'm not 994 00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:29,200 Speaker 2: saying it because you know you're my mate or she's 995 00:49:29,200 --> 00:49:32,160 Speaker 2: my mate. You both are. But we had you know, 996 00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:33,640 Speaker 2: when I look back on it, Jews, I was the 997 00:49:33,640 --> 00:49:36,239 Speaker 2: commander of the homicide squad for probably four years or so, 998 00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:42,560 Speaker 2: and we had outstanding talented detectives there, including you and 999 00:49:42,560 --> 00:49:45,080 Speaker 2: Pam and many others. So I've been doing it for 1000 00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,640 Speaker 2: a decade of fifteen years and so on. You know 1001 00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:52,359 Speaker 2: all the people, you know. It's just I always feel 1002 00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,319 Speaker 2: a sense of sadness when I see people move on 1003 00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:55,880 Speaker 2: from homicide. But I know you've got to do it, 1004 00:49:55,920 --> 00:50:00,080 Speaker 2: but for your career and otherwise, it is one of 1005 00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,759 Speaker 2: the most important jobs that you can have in policing. 1006 00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:05,239 Speaker 2: There is no more serious crime than murder than a 1007 00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:09,759 Speaker 2: human being having their life taken, and you need the best. Hopefully, 1008 00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:14,400 Speaker 2: to deal with that sort of crime and you're outstanding. 1009 00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:15,200 Speaker 1: Thanks. 1010 00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:16,479 Speaker 2: She was better. 1011 00:50:17,960 --> 00:50:20,960 Speaker 1: They were good times. I just clarify one thing. I 1012 00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,080 Speaker 1: didn't move on from homicide for my career. 1013 00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:24,800 Speaker 2: I got charged. 1014 00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:29,600 Speaker 1: Anyway, we'll wrap up, wrap up part one. There's plenty 1015 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:31,640 Speaker 1: more to talk about because your books full of stuff. 1016 00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:33,280 Speaker 1: So thank you. Have a short break. 1017 00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:33,640 Speaker 2: Thank you,